Logs on 2021-12-10 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:17	<dsal>	The work is parallelized, but they have to agree on timing. It's kind of a hard problem and doesn't work super reliably.
00:00:26	<hpc>	sometimes it's more efficient to just have one really long finger
00:01:09	<hpc>	https://theinfosphere.org/images/thumb/b/be/Farnsworth-finglonger1.jpg/225px-Farnsworth-finglonger1.jpg
00:01:18	<dsal>	My head already showed me that picture.
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00:01:30	<monochrom>	One really long finger is great for glissando on a piano :)
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00:49:06	<dsal>	Kind of annoyed that moving this code into a different module has such a large impact on performance. I need fancier whole program optimization.
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00:59:18	<int-e>	. o O ( if you want performance you have to get inline )
00:59:34	<int-e>	bad pun, but also kind of true, sadly
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01:02:22	<dsal>	I've found just moving a bit of code into a function has had quite noticeable impact even in the same module regardless of how hard I tell it to inline. I'm guessing it didn't notice it could fuse.
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01:06:43	<johnw>	dsal: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/inspection-testing is a nice way to defend against that kind of performance regression
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01:08:12	<dsal>	Oh neat.
01:08:44	<dsal>	I think this was a case where it could actually do the right thing, but wasn't because of what I thought might be a tiny difference that ended up being some unexpected overhead.
01:09:02	<dsal>	Basically, I made my `Thing` a `Thing a` with a conversion function attached and that had a huge impact.
01:09:14	<johnw>	yes, things like creating a non-saturated function have ruined my day in a similar way before
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03:10:03	<jackdk>	in 2017, ocharles wrote an article that can be summarised as "here's a recipe to make MonadFoo classes that are usable by both mtl and effect systems, by making a class whose only method is a `liftFoo :: Free (Coyoneda SomeGADTOfOperations) a -> m a`: https://blog.ocharles.org.uk/posts/2017-08-23-extensible-effects-and-transformers.html
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03:12:05	<jackdk>	I'm trying to extend it to support things like `local`, in that I have constructors of the GADT like `Reconfigure :: Foo -> MyGADT a -> MyGADT a`. But then the straightfoward lifting goes away, because you want to expose operations like `reconfigure :: MonadFoo m => Foo -> m a -> m a`, at which point I get stuck on that `m a` in negative position. Has anyone here successfully extended this technique in this way?
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03:21:26	<jackdk>	I could change the GADT constructor to be `Reconfigure :: MonadFoo m => Foo -> m a -> MyGADT a` but I suspect that's gonna play poorly at the use site.
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03:59:29	<jackdk>	yeah this is bad - if i put an `m a` into the GADT like that I can't prove that it's the same `m` that I want to interpret into
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04:07:39	<Axman6>	isn;t this one of the reasons why effects in polysemy are also passed the effects it's running with? (being very loose with my language, I'm sure)
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04:10:25	<jackdk>	I expect so, because this is a "bracket-ish" operation. spoiler: since AWST is a clumsy monad transformer and rightfully departing in amazonka-2.0, I'm trying to build a replacement internally that I will opensource once it's proven. I'm digging around to see if I can make something that's a good base for both mtl and effect systems in the ocharles style, but it isn't looking good so far
04:13:30	<jackdk>	I suppose you can implement things like `within :: MonadAmazonka m => Region -> m a -> m a` outside of the GADT by (in MTL) using `local` since you know you have a reader inside your `AmazonkaT`, but the best I can think of in `freer-simple` is to interpret the stuff you want to run in some other region separately, which feels pretty awkward
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04:17:10	<jackdk>	Axman6: I particularly welcome your thoughts since I know you used to do a bunch of amazonkoid stuff
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04:27:06	<Axman6>	it feels like the missing thing is some constraint that you have some reader/state which you can change the Region in, but I have no idea how to fix that
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04:31:04	<Axman6>	can liftWithin :: Region -> Free (Coyodneda Foo) a -> m a also be a part of the interface?
04:31:48	<Axman6>	feels like a bad hack
04:32:50	<Axman6>	something like liftLocal :: (Env -> Env) -> Free (Coyodneda Foo) a -> m a might be useful I guess
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04:35:49	<jackdk>	yeah because I don't want to tie myself to amazonka's Env at the abstract GADT definition stage
04:36:19	<jackdk>	I considered storing Free (Coyo Foo) a in the GADT but then you can do Amazonka operations AND NOTHING ELSE
04:36:41	<Axman6>	having m a -> m a feels wrong to me, since this only applies to your Free thing
04:37:20	<Axman6>	feels like reading isovector's posts on the design of polysemy might be useful, even if it doesn't contain the answer
04:38:13	<jackdk>	indeed. similar problem if you try a higher rank type: `Within :: Region -> (forall m . MonadFoo m => m a) -> Foo a` lets us choose what `m` is, but at the cost of telling library clients they can't do anything inside that region which isn't only a MonadFoo
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04:41:00	<jackdk>	I've read some of isovector's writing, and it seems like there are only a few contenders: freer-simple if you don't want too much galaxybrain, polysemy if you're willing to use GHC plugins and go all in on galactic haskell, fused-effects if you really really want performance, and eff might be a thing later when the delimited continuation primops appear in widely-used GHCs
04:41:36	<jackdk>	and not many of them let you write `bracket`-ish things
04:42:00	<jackdk>	so I'm thinking I may as well abandon this, just write a really good MTL-style lib for now, and let the effects world catch up?
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05:02:20	<user01>	tesr
05:03:37	<jackdk>	received user01
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05:45:28	<Axman6>	Sadly, there was no SYN
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05:59:00	<jackdk>	you mean ACK
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06:07:27	<Axman6>	Nah, you SYNACK'd
06:07:37	<Axman6>	uh, right, yes
06:07:51	<Axman6>	no wonder all my TCP connections were going backwards
06:08:18	<Axman6>	I guess we live in a world where we do not ACK our SYNs
06:09:04	<int-e>	RST RST RST
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06:15:24	<int-e>	> unwords $ map (\x -> printf "%.2f" (190 - x/20)) [3738,3728,3693,3672,3602,3581,3580,3576,3546,3539]
06:15:26	<lambdabot>	"3.10 3.60 5.35 6.40 9.90 10.95 11.00 11.20 12.70 13.05"
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06:22:02	<xerox>	when cyphase decided do it I did end up off the list but there am I back again in the int-e official scoring :D
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06:24:02	<cyphase>	\o/
06:24:20	<cyphase>	had to get it in before 24hrs had passed at least
06:26:59	<int-e>	xerox: Heh, I don't make the order though.
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06:31:55	<xerox>	int-e: anything fun from your take on it today?
06:33:46	<int-e>	too much cut&paste
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09:06:12	<aplainzetakind>	How do I silence a warning at a particular location in code?
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09:06:28	<dminuoso>	You cant.
09:06:36	<aplainzetakind>	:(
09:06:46	<dminuoso>	best you can do is set {-# OPTIONS_GHC -fno-warn-foo #-} module wide
09:06:50	<dminuoso>	Or via .cabal file
09:07:17	<dminuoso>	There was an issue about it in GHC about 10 years ago that was bikeshedded fairly quickly
09:08:10	<aplainzetakind>	OPTIONS_GHC will do then.
09:08:11	<aplainzetakind>	Thanks.
09:08:31	<aplainzetakind>	And incomplete-patterns misfires sometimes right?
09:09:00	<dminuoso>	aplainzetakind: With lower your guards it have substantially smaller false negatives
09:09:12	<dminuoso>	So it depends a bit on your GHC version
09:09:25	<dminuoso>	If you're still running on relatively old versions, you dont have LYG implemented yet.
09:09:49	<dminuoso>	And back then, the incomplete patterns was horribly broken - few things have produced as many bug reports as that.
09:10:09	<aplainzetakind>	I'm on 8.10
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09:10:30	<dminuoso>	It was a gradual process, I think you'll have to ask the GHC folks how far it was in 8.10
09:10:47	<dminuoso>	If memory serves right, it's largely implemented in 9.x
09:10:59	<aplainzetakind>	OK then. I'll shut it up too.
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10:07:01	<dminuoso>	Mmm, is there a combinator like `IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (SomeException -> IO b) -> IO b` in base that Im not seeing?
10:08:09	<merijn>	catch? :p
10:08:12	<merijn>	:t catch
10:08:13	<lambdabot>	Exception e => IO a -> (e -> IO a) -> IO a
10:08:21	<merijn>	I mean, you need 1 extra step
10:08:30	<merijn>	But that seems fairbairn threshold-y :p
10:09:00	<dminuoso>	Mmm
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10:10:27	<dminuoso>	I mean I know I can do `f a h e = fmap (either id id) $ (Left <$> a) `catch` (fmap Right . h)
10:10:30	<dminuoso>	Or some such
10:10:39	<dminuoso>	merijn: Is it, really?
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10:11:50	<dminuoso>	The naive attempt at doing `f =<< x `catch` f` is not the same.
10:12:11	<dminuoso>	I want to catch an exception on `x`, but on if it comes from `f`, and then simply not proceed.
10:12:23	<dminuoso>	The IO exception version of `maybe`, if you want
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10:12:40	<merijn>	only if it comes from 'f'?
10:12:52	<dminuoso>	Sorry, not if it comes from `f`
10:13:15	<merijn>	I mean... "\x f h -> (x `catch` h) >>= f"?
10:13:27	<dminuoso>	merijn: Yeah still not the same.
10:13:32	<merijn>	oh, wait, yeah
10:13:42	<int-e>	((Left <$> a) `catch` (fmap Right . e)) >>= either h pure
10:13:45	<dminuoso>	You have to do the above and fiddle an Either through
10:13:47	<dminuoso>	yeah
10:14:11	<dminuoso>	Naively it seems this would be a very useful or desirable thing
10:14:37	<int-e>	so yeah, icky enough to warrant a definition... but maybe too specialized to warrant inclusion in base
10:15:13	<int-e>	(I realize it's perfect for CPS style programming, but I think many people don't find CPS natural at all)
10:16:11	<dminuoso>	% exception e h a = ((Left <$> a) `catch` (fmap Right . e)) >>= either h pure
10:16:11	<yahb>	dminuoso:
10:16:13	<dminuoso>	% :t exception
10:16:13	<yahb>	dminuoso: Exception e => (e -> IO b) -> (a -> IO b) -> IO a -> IO b
10:17:34	<int-e>	% :t handle
10:17:34	<yahb>	int-e: Exception e => (e -> IO a) -> IO a -> IO a
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10:17:38	<int-e>	% :t catch
10:17:38	<yahb>	int-e: Exception e => IO a -> (e -> IO a) -> IO a
10:17:42	<int-e>	:-/
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10:18:49	<dminuoso>	You could even define handle/catch in terms of exception, as `handle h = exception h pure`
10:19:03	<dminuoso>	int-e: It seems to fit more in line with `either`, `maybe` and those operators.
10:19:34	<dminuoso>	Im not sure this about CPS programming.
10:20:06	<dminuoso>	In some traditional languages you could have an exception handler that simply uses a return() or throws an exception itself to shortcircuit the rest of the function. But we cant do this in Haskell
10:20:26	<int-e>	dminuoso: you're providing a continuation for the exception case and another one for the successful case
10:20:30	<dminuoso>	Think its the other way around, you have to use CPS to get the effect of `exception` without its existance
10:21:20	<int-e>	`catch` happens to be what the RTS implements
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10:21:42	<dminuoso>	int-e: Do you think its more idiomatic to do something like `r <- handle (const (pure Nothing)) e; case r of Nothing -> closeSocket ...; Just x -> proceed ...`?
10:22:13	<dminuoso>	Given how with Maybe equivalent we'd just write `maybe closeSocket proceed x` instead
10:22:36	<dminuoso>	That "CPS" style seems in line with what we usually write
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10:22:52	<dminuoso>	Oh, and I was missing some `Just <$> e` in that
10:23:53	<int-e>	dminuoso: I have no opinion... superficially, `closeSocket` sounds like a job for `bracket`
10:24:19	<int-e>	well, I have an opinion which is that exception handling is unidiomatic no matter how you do it :P
10:24:32	<dminuoso>	int-e: Sure. I mean specifically Im using websockets, and I want to close the socket with a particular error code.
10:25:01	<dminuoso>	And a file not exist exception on the very first IO action would produce something akin to a 404, whereas further file not exist exceptions would be something akin to 500
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10:27:17	<dminuoso>	So for bracket to work here, Id have to catch the first file not exist exception, and rethrow as some `FirstFileNotFoundException`
10:28:54	<int-e>	did I mention that I was being superficial
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10:29:47	<dminuoso>	Fair enough. :)
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10:36:25	<int-e>	dminuoso: Oh, actually... in that `exception`, should `e :: e -> IO b` be run as an exception handler (async exceptions blocked) or as ordinary code? because we seem to differ on that...
10:37:26	<dminuoso>	int-e: exception handler with async exceptions blocked.
10:37:39	<int-e>	(basically, if you want to cope with async exceptions, `handle (const (pure Nothing))` is almost never going to be the right thing)
10:38:04	<dminuoso>	I adopt the unliftio/safe-exceptions mind model that async exceptions should, in general, never be blocked.
10:38:07	<dminuoso>	Or recovered from.
10:38:32	<int-e>	but you are in a resource cleanup scenario, aren't you?
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10:40:16	<dminuoso>	So what I have is that some client opens a websocket at /foo/1, and my software will deserialize the file files/1.json, and do something with it. But on the occasion that file does not exist, I want to reject the websocket from the get go. to avoid a toctou race, I will simply use eitherDecodeFileStrict' from aeson
10:41:10	<int-e>	Oh maybe not. You don't need more than `catch` in that case because the handler should just rethrow the exception (so there's no return type to worry about; execution doesn't continue)
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10:41:20	<dminuoso>	handler pid pending = do { f =<< decode pid; handle f =<< acceptRequest pending }
10:41:26	<dminuoso>	something along these lines
10:41:52	<dminuoso>	Uh, hold on
10:42:03	<dminuoso>	handler pid pending = do { f <- process =<< decode pid; handle f =<< acceptRequest pending }
10:42:11	<dminuoso>	Now the key is, `process` will also access the file system
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10:42:51	<dminuoso>	And depending on whether decode or whether process throws a file not exist exception, I want the socket closed differently
10:43:10	<dminuoso>	(or rather I mean, the pending request will be rejected differently)
10:43:21	<dminuoso>	but this distinction is not relevant
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10:53:05	<int-e>	dminuoso: this is kind of horrible, but perhaps the least invasive approach with respect to exception handling would be to track how far you've progressed in a mutable variable (IOVar)?
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10:55:55	<dminuoso>	int-e: Mmm, that seems a bit overkill too
10:55:57	<dminuoso>	https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/66872130a9312fb7106afc1662c90124
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10:56:11	<dminuoso>	So this is quickly written sketch (not tested yet, might be typos in there)
10:56:13	<dminuoso>	of my intent
10:59:01	<dminuoso>	Guess the surprising thing is that all our exception recovery join the branches back together
10:59:21	<dminuoso>	both the exception and happy branch
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11:01:24	<int-e>	except when the exception is rethrown (which a bunch of things actually do)
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11:04:21	<vpan>	https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/intro.html#similar-systems says there are 5000 packages on hackage, while https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/browse reports 16248. Assuming 16k is the correct number of packages currently on hackage, 3x looks like a significant understatement. Should this be fixed or am I the only one bothered by that? :)
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11:10:05	<int-e>	% :t let f a h e = join (fmap h a `catch` (fmap pure . e)) in f
11:10:05	<yahb>	int-e: Exception e => IO a1 -> (a1 -> IO a2) -> (e -> IO a2) -> IO a2
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11:12:01	<int-e>	dminuoso: ^^ no clue whether this is better in any objective way, but it's free of Either
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13:24:17	<dminuoso>	int-e: You were absolutely right. My head was stuck in CPS.
13:24:21	<dminuoso>	For no good reason.
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13:24:57	<dminuoso>	All I needed was `getManifest :: Int -> IO Manifest; getManifest pid = handle noSuchFile ...`
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13:51:26	<raehik>	What's the difference between Proxy# and Proxy? I know of the words "boxing/unboxing", but I don't really know what they mean
13:51:42	<raehik>	I can see that Proxy# is more like Void, it can't be constructed on the Value level
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13:57:58	<timCF>	Hello! Does anyone know what's the purpose of irrefutable patterns in Haskell? I think I do understand how it works, but I don't understand why it's needed and what are good use cases for this
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14:03:34	<boxscape>	raehik: proxy# is a value of type Proxy#. It's just an alternative to Proxy that has zero runtime cost
14:03:59	<geekosaur>	timCF, they're lazy patterns instead of strict
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14:04:40	<timCF>	geekosaur: I thought data and functions in Haskell are lazy by default anyway?
14:05:10	<timCF>	I mean not only functions, any expressions (like pattern matching)
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14:06:09	<geekosaur>	pattern matching is strict by default at top level (but not in let). something has to be strict or no evaluation would ever happen at all
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14:06:40	<boxscape>	e.g. `f (x, y) = ()` is strict in its argument, i.e. if `x` is bottom, then so is `f x`.
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14:07:27	<timCF>	got it, thanks!
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15:08:57	<raehik>	boxscape: sry for delay, thank you. I will keep it in mind when I need to do type ferrying from now, I only knew about Proxy
15:09:05	<maplike>	can someone show a canonical or just concise (very short yet illustrative) example, that is not _factorial_, of first solving with corecursion/recursion, then ana/cata and then hylo?
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15:14:24	<xerox>	is there a cabal command to list all possible targets?
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15:21:35	<yushyin>	something like that would be nice, but there is a target syntax for specific modules/files and listing _all_ wouldn't be that useful i guess?
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15:45:40	<boxscape>	raehik: there's also something to be said about using `proxy a` instead of either `Proxy a` or `Proxy# a` - that allows the caller of the function to supply any (lifted) type. You lose out on the zero runtime cost though (unless you introduce levity polymorphism I think... but that's probably not worth it)
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16:05:35	<oats>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY1BCv3xn24
16:05:42	<oats>	this is a really fascinating talk
16:14:23	<oats>	I don't think I've ever seen a non-fascinating talk from George Wilson
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16:19:14	<timCF>	Hello! I'm leaning "singletons" design patterns from tutorial made by jle` where he is using a lot of "strange" syntax like `data Door :: DoorState -> Type where; UnsafeMkDoor :: { doorMaterial :: String } -> Door s` in examples. I'm thinking what's the point of using "data" expression where clearly could be used parametrized "newtype" which is more efficient for free, optimized by GHC (I guess) and have
16:19:20	<timCF>	free stuff like "coerce"?
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16:26:59	<geekosaur>	GADTs are not normal "data" types
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16:28:22	<geekosaur>	in particular, that describes a type which is "tagged" by a type "s"
16:28:50	<geekosaur>	(I think you could do that particular case with a non-GADT, but it would still need to be a "data" to accomplish that tagging)
16:29:26	<timCF>	geekosaur: I mean why not `newtype Door (a :: DoorState) = Door String`?
16:29:36	<geekosaur>	and part of the point of the tagging is you do not want to simply coerce values
16:29:49	<geekosaur>	it's not a Door String, it's a Door DoorState
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16:30:25	<timCF>	geekosaur: and then in somewhere in code `let door = Door @'Open "Oak"`
16:30:31	<geekosaur>	and you do not want to be able to cheaply coerce to different DoorState values, since the point of DoorState is to keep you from changing the state under the wrong conditions
16:30:51	<geekosaur>	jle`'s stuff should explain this, I've been through it a few times
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16:32:06	<geekosaur>	I'm not great with type level stuff but the DoorState examples at least made sense to me
16:34:46	<timCF>	geekosaur: Yes, examples totally make sense, I'm just trying to understand reasoning behind of using "data" instead of "newtype" in examples. Newtypes also could have phantom type and kind parameters like data.
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16:38:10	<geekosaur>	usually you have more than one parameter
16:38:53	<geekosaur>	and you keep showing simpler ways to do things. but the whole point of this is to not be simple, but to force you to jump through the right hoops that maintain invariants
16:39:25	<geekosaur>	you wouldn't need to do this with type level stuff at all otherwise
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16:44:09	<timCF>	I guess, I have to try stuff like `newtype Door (a :: DoorState) = UnsafeMkDoor { doorMaterial :: String }` instead of similar "data" expression and see why it's not working on actual examples
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16:45:38	<timCF>	If it's even there is "coerce" for newtypes - I just don't use it, and use proper type-level computations instead, not sure will it be any difference then
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16:54:10	<Franciman>	see you!
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16:59:10	<oats>	https://nitter.net/GabriellaG439/status/1465908026662010882
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17:01:17	<geekosaur>	timCF, if it lets you openj a door without unlocking it first, it's failing to maintain the invariant in jle`'s example
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17:06:00	<jle`>	timCF: i don't think in this case there's any reason to not use a newtype in this case, it's not really a GADT, it's just using GADT syntax
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17:06:52	<jle`>	timCF: i think the idea was to be more "general", in many real cases you might have more than one field
17:07:52	<timCF>	geekosaur: jle`: thanks for reply! Yes, I'm using product types for sure, but 50% of my types are usually just newtypes, which I want to continue to use with singletons as well.
17:08:41	<geekosaur>	I mentioned the multiple fields thing earlier
17:08:57	<jle`>	yup yeah, there is no reason to use data over newtype in that case. i think maybe i originally wrote the tutorial with a data type with multiple fields and removed a field to simplify it
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17:11:01	<sprout>	https://github.com/egel-lang/aoc-2021/blob/main/day10/task2.eg <- day 10 task 2 of advent of code in egel
17:12:05	<timCF>	jle`: thanks for tutorial as well! I've used phantom kind parameters for a while, but always had a trouble in lifting/unlifting stuff between type, kind and value levels.. Usually used type class approach, but it's very ugly to use
17:12:45	<jle`>	np!
17:13:19	<jle`>	i think i have to update the tutorial for the major version bump of singletons that happened last year
17:13:31	<jle`>	where Sing is now an injective type family instead of a data family
17:13:40	<jle`>	two years ago?
17:13:58	<jle`>	the ecosystem marches on
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17:38:26	<dsal>	This code is very satisfying: repair chunk = fix missing ""
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17:40:26	<monochrom>	hahaha nice
17:40:28	<xerox>	how'd you coerce fix into that
17:41:04	<dsal>	It's just regular fix.
17:41:12	<geekosaur>	> fix _ ""
17:41:16	<lambdabot>	error:
17:41:16	<lambdabot>	• Found hole: _ :: ([Char] -> t) -> [Char] -> t
17:41:16	<lambdabot>	Where: ‘t’ is a rigid type variable bound by
17:41:25	<xerox>	I mean into doing your bidding
17:41:35	<monochrom>	Convert your vanilla recursive function into using fix.
17:41:39	<dsal>	Missing tries to parse the input and if it fails, the error says what was missing and it shoves it in there.
17:42:37	<dsal>	It's not better or worse in this particular situation. It just reads nicely.
17:43:00	<xerox>	alright, just getting the recursive call as an arg
17:43:08	<xerox>	it does read awfully nice
17:43:19	<dsal>	I just couldn't have something called repair that didn't call fix.
17:43:38	<EvanR>	wreck-it ralph would be proud
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18:21:41	<sprout>	dsal: +1
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19:03:36	<xerox>	@src foldM
19:03:37	<lambdabot>	foldM _ a [] = return a
19:03:37	<lambdabot>	foldM f a (x:xs) = f a x >>= \fax -> foldM f fax xs
19:04:00	<xerox>	still using fax'es
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19:08:20	<sshine>	heh
19:08:21	<sshine>	what?
19:08:37	<sshine>	oh.
19:09:09	<monochrom>	Want me to fax you a category theory paper? Just tell me your phone number! >:)
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21:28:45	<maplike>	can someone give or point to a simple yet illustrative example (_other than factorial_) showing the path starting from corecursion/recursion, to the ana/cata version and then using hylo?
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21:42:17	<sshine>	maplike, I implemented an anamorphism in C# once: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30844688/what-is-an-anamorphism-and-how-does-one-look-like-in-c/30857439#30857439 -- there are two examples, one being the collatz tree from XKCD, and the other being a family tree.
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21:44:47	<sshine>	I think I even called the accumulating function over trees "water" :-P
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21:47:59	<maplike>	sshine, that looks interesting thank you!
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21:49:03	<maplike>	I was think more of "here's how to implement somethinf (not factorial!, but equally short) using recursion, here it is with ana and cata, and then a hylo verion 1-liner
21:49:06	<sshine>	maplike, hmm, for hylo... I guess the wikipedia article suggests that fib(n) is a tree-isomorphic hylo. but maybe there are more involved examples.
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21:51:28	<maplike>	... in Haskell, rather than how to implement ana and cata, or what they mean. fib(n) as tree-isomorphic hylo might be a good one to try
21:51:33	<sshine>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pointless-haskell-0.0.9/docs/Generics-Pointless-Examples-Examples.html :P
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21:52:24	<maplike>	OK< that has fibHylo
21:52:47	<sshine>	well... some of those seem a little hard to read.
21:53:31	<maplike>	the perl bits?
21:53:34	<sshine>	maplike, the idea, as far as I understand, is that the trivial fib(n) = fib(n-1) + fib(n-2) implementation is a hylomorphism.
21:54:16	<sshine>	maplike, because the call tree becomes the tree data structure that the anamorphism part would construct, and the catamorphism then destroys by traversal.
21:54:23	<maplike>	seems more like 2 anas
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21:54:46	<sshine>	maplike, nah, building a tree is unfolding, reducing the tree to a single number is folding.
21:55:03	<maplike>	yes, if you think in terms of trees, I see that
21:55:22	<maerwald[m]>	fibPF = (zero \/ (one \/ add)) . (bang -\|- (bang -\|- fibPF >< fibPF)) . (id -\|- aux) . ((==0)?)
21:55:39	<maerwald[m]>	F... off? :)
21:55:42	<sshine>	but then the more efficient fib(n) that remembers the last two steps, is instead a hylomorphism for which the call tree is isomorphic to lists.
21:55:54	<sshine>	maerwald[m], that's how you code Haskall, right?
21:56:14	<maerwald[m]>	That's how you commit a crime
21:56:47	<maplike>	but at least you _can_ do it :D
21:57:28	<maplike>	sshine, that is the sort of insight and intuition I'm after
21:57:45	<maplike>	it even sort of makes sense
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21:58:41	<maerwald[m]>	That's why haskell is nr. 2 on most disliked functional languages :p
22:00:39	<sshine>	maplike, one sec, I think I have an example of something.
22:00:54	<maplike>	still here
22:01:18	<monochrom>	Now I"m curious. Which are the other most disliked languages? For example nr.1 and nr.3?
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22:02:25	<sshine>	monochrom, it's not actually true (according to StackOverflow's survey). probably because not enough people actually use it and come to dislike it.
22:02:29	<sshine>	https://appetiser.com.au/blog/the-most-loved-and-hated-programming-languages-according-to-developers/#The%20Most%20Disliked%20Programming%20Languages
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22:03:04	<sshine>	1. VBA, 2. Objective-C, 3. Assembly, 4. C, 5. PHP, 6. Erlang, 7. Ruby, 8. R, 9. C++, 10. Java.
22:03:30	<monochrom>	Ah thanks. Haha but what about "bad press is still better than no press"? >:)
22:03:43	<sshine>	I just don't get why anyone would hate on Erlang. I mean, how many people accidentally stumble into an Erlang job and feel forced to stay? I totally get why people would hate PHP because it's sort of the mud from which so many of us are born.
22:04:05	<monochrom>	VBA is very disliked but at least everyone still has to brag/lie "I know VBA" on their CVs.
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22:04:40	<monochrom>	Whereas no one bothers to lie "I know Haskell".
22:04:44	<sshine>	I'd like about knowing VBA if I knew VBA. but at this point I'd just refuse to even confirm or deny.
22:05:37	<sshine>	lying about knowing Haskell is probably among the bloopers out there. like lying about speaking Chinese, and then your interviewer speaks fluent Chinese. (that happened to me, and I was only 6 months in, haha.)
22:06:07	<monochrom>	Yeah Erlang being up there is weird.
22:06:50	<maplike>	I thought everybody loved Ruby when it first came out
22:06:50	<sshine>	yeah. for Erlang, I feel like dislike is more like discomfort... knowing you have an awesome VM with a deprecated syntax, I'd feel more sorry than dislike. and probably enjoy it more than most other languages.
22:07:12	<sshine>	maplike, Ruby is Perl.
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22:09:25	<monochrom>	I don't think factorial fibonacci etc are good ways to learn catamorphism and anamorphism.
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22:09:41	<monochrom>	Instead, initial algebras and final coalgebras.
22:09:59	<sshine>	maplike, so... I guess you could take any greedy algorithm implemented as a recursive function and regard it as a hylomorphism. e.g. the coin change problem.
22:10:16	<earendel>	no zebras?
22:10:26	<sshine>	cozebras
22:10:45	<monochrom>	Good examples of initial algebras are ADTs like "data IntList = Nil \| Cons Int IntList" and "data IntTree = Leaf Int \| Branch IntTree IntTree".
22:11:10	<zardoz>	heh, every single time I join (and that is rare), maerwald craps on haskell. he'd be banned in a different channel 1000 times already
22:11:54	<geekosaur>	thing is, maerwald maintains the primary way of getting haskell
22:12:08	<monochrom>	Unfortunately, or fortunately, he gave us ghcup. He has more than earned his stay.
22:13:09	<geekosaur>	also he's not the only one who thinks pointfree is fairly ugly
22:13:26	<zardoz>	as if that is the only thing he complains about
22:14:08	<zardoz>	monochrom, so if he didn't write that, he'd be banned?
22:14:22	<maplike>	sshine: what's the simplest example?
22:14:38	<monochrom>	Maybe after more incidents.
22:14:40	<earendel>	that fibonacci examples where meant as a joke.
22:14:45	<geekosaur>	he's also not the only one who thinks laziness by default has problems. he's provided examples of that
22:14:49	<maplike>	in terms of the unfold part
22:15:55	<lbseale>	I know VBA but I wouldn't want to put it on my resume, I don't want anyone asking me to write anything in it
22:15:57	<earendel>	like lazyloading?
22:15:57	<sshine>	maplike, the simplest example of what?
22:16:47	<earendel>	i knew if conversation nevers stops its on haskell
22:16:54	<earendel>	:p
22:16:59	<sshine>	maplike, https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Count_the_coins#Haskell -- here's a function that generates a tree-like call-stack. you could build it as an anamorphism that generates the tree, and a catamorphism that collapses it.
22:17:17	<maplike>	so, if we have a recursive solution based on a greedy algorithm,
22:17:25	<earendel>	a tree-like stack? who would want that?!
22:17:42	<sshine>	earendel, someone looking for an example of a non-trivial hylomorphism? :-P
22:18:28	<maplike>	that's a good example for my purposes
22:18:30	<earendel>	sshine: i would need a trivial one. for starters. also ana/cata
22:18:41	<earendel>	and cozebra
22:19:54	<monochrom>	A singly linked list is a very degenerate tree.
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22:20:39	<sshine>	but is it retarded?
22:20:48	<earendel>	but stack is 1 dimension .. push and pop.. no?
22:20:58	<maplike>	fyi https://stackoverflow.com/a/69651010
22:23:45	<sshine>	maplike, ah yes. so this is for counting the number of distinct ways to give change. the related problem was finding a solution that involved the fewest coins.
22:24:17	<sshine>	where does the Algebra type constructor come from?
22:24:38	<monochrom>	Scrolling dow you'll find "type Algebra f a = f a -> a"
22:24:46	<sshine>	oh, they're just type aliases. thanks.
22:24:54	<maplike>	line 6
22:25:04	<monochrom>	Or scrolling up, I forgot.
22:25:55	<sshine>	maplike, the example might be a little confusing with the use of type aliases and arrow operators.
22:26:51	<maplike>	everybody pretends they don't use Arrows, but they seem to appear quite often.The VBS of abstractions?!
22:26:55	<maplike>	*VBA
22:27:00	<monochrom>	hee hee
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22:27:59	<hpc>	Arrow is to bash as Category is to sh
22:28:13	<hpc>	"this script is definitely posix"
22:28:38	<hpc>	if it didn't have arr it would be a great type class
22:28:39	<monochrom>	Technicality: >>> and <<< no longer require Arrow. They are from Category now.
22:28:40	<geekosaur>	I think the most commonly used parts are >>> <<< (reframings of composition) and first, second are just tuple twiddling
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22:29:27	<monochrom>	In this case, <<< is (.), >>> is flip(.). THE END.
22:29:35	<maplike>	I ended up using `&&&` last time I came here :D
22:29:56	<geekosaur>	% :t (&&&) @(->)
22:29:57	<yahb>	geekosaur: (b -> c) -> (b -> c') -> b -> (c, c')
22:30:07	<geekosaur>	more tuple twiddling :)
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22:30:28	<maplike>	here as in freenode :)
22:30:34	<geekosaur>	I mostly avoid tuples so have little use for most of Arrow
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22:31:10	<sshine>	I only ever use arrow operators for tuples :P for functions I suppose the most sophisticated I do is applicative.
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22:39:27	<maerwald[m]>	sshine: wrong link
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22:39:52	<maerwald[m]>	https://scalac.io/ranking/functional-programming-languages-sentiment-ranking/
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22:40:42	<sshine>	maerwald[m], makes sense! Haskell wouldn't be hated based on popularity, because people don't get pressured into using it.
22:41:05	<maerwald[m]>	Only purescript ranks worse. My hunch is that the reason is that both haskell and purescript constantly break stuff
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22:43:08	<sshine>	...and that they're actually languages people come into contact with.
22:43:48	<sshine>	who has anything bad to say about Idris? that's like saying something about the cryptocurrency you bought for Ethereum that you traded for Bitcoin... at that point, you only have yourself to blame if things don't work out. :-D
22:44:14	<perro>	it was called mazacoin and it's still a sore spot for some poeple
22:44:36	<perro>	are the differences significant?
22:45:21	<monochrom>	People can still hate something they themselves chose.
22:45:55	<sshine>	I think what's interesting about the "most negative" scale is actually the least negative ones: Kotlin, Elm, Elixir. they're significantly lower than all the others at >~10%.
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22:48:31	<monochrom>	In the case of Haskell I would attribute to tooling.
22:49:18	<sshine>	and learning curve
22:49:25	<monochrom>	To be sure, none of us has data to support or refute any guess :)
22:49:51	<sshine>	I happen to have divine insight, but I can't prove it.
22:50:10	<monochrom>	I think of learning curve as a minor factor because, like, PHP and Python are not in the scope of the comparison, but OCaml is.
22:50:34	<perro>	soemthing like elm goes out of its way to be easy
22:50:41	<dolio>	Who was answering the poll?
22:50:48	<perro>	elixir does a similar job, and people are probablye xposed to it via phoenix which is very on the rails
22:51:03	<sshine>	dolio, it's based on analysing how people mention the languages, I think.
22:51:04	<monochrom>	Although, if you mean "learning curve for when to leverage or kill laziness" then yeah, but then I can still smugly blame it on profiling tools :)
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22:51:15	<sshine>	dolio, so something like scanning social media, I guess?
22:51:15	<dolio>	What people?
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22:52:37	<monochrom>	I think the page describes the methodology, but I didn't read it.
22:53:12	<monochrom>	And yeah I should go back to my Giry monad study instead of slashdotting this :)
22:53:23	<maerwald[m]>	10% hate factor for clojure seems to be a methodology error
22:53:27	<maerwald[m]>	I don't but it
22:53:34	<sshine>	monochrom, right :) also, negative incentive towards Haskell (13.90%) vs. Rust (12.16%) is pretty close. having recently started to use Rust, I would have to say that being compared with that onboarding experience isn't bad at all.
22:53:36	<maerwald[m]>	It should be 80%
22:54:01	<monochrom>	Oh, I happen to know what I would hate about Rust. :)
22:54:05	<maerwald[m]>	Even clojure experts hate it
22:54:37	<earendel>	why would you be interested in such trivia?
22:54:48	<maerwald[m]>	Rust has better tooling, but nightly also constantly breaks stuff
22:54:50	<sshine>	maerwald[m], maybe the people who hate clojure are too ironic for their ranking algorithm to pick up.
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22:55:04	<ystael>	I used to be a clojure expert kinda ... the things I hated about it weren't its fault, they were its nature, so my fault for using it
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22:55:08	<maerwald[m]>	I believe breaking changes is the primary factor for hate
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22:55:30	<maerwald[m]>	Clojure doesn't bresk anything. There's no such thing as API in clojure
22:55:35	<geekosaur>	sigh
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22:55:59	<earendel>	second to being badly or never fucked at all?
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22:56:04	<monochrom>	Rust's borrow system is great for mundane industrial code, but I happened to choose a bad way to learn and practice Rust. I tried "let me code up a Haskellish recursive ADT in Rust". That didn't end well. It did give me much insight heh.
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22:56:31	<perro>	I get pretty far along in an applicaiton swith rust and realized how much time I'd spent doing trivial shit
22:56:33	<maerwald[m]>	You can though
22:57:09	<perro>	it's hard to get a feel for how something like lifetimes work iwithin a codebase without doing it
22:57:33	<maerwald[m]>	RefCell everything
22:57:52	<maerwald[m]>	I'm only half joking
22:58:28	<earendel>	i don't know.. better than having unchecked memcpy in openssh source in 2021
22:59:33	<earendel>	.. also please don't act as if you were afraid of rust being a gamechanger.
22:59:49	<sshine>	afraid?
22:59:53	<maerwald[m]>	Yes, one has to remember that "memory safety" in rust doesn't mean "your program never crashes", but "your program crashes safely... woll, unless. .."
23:00:26	<maerwald[m]>	Unless you use C libraries or unsafe code
23:01:14	<sshine>	do Haskell programs crash safely if you use C libraries or unsafe code? :)
23:01:33	<earendel>	maewald: everyone does. you don't?
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23:01:48	<sshine>	I log in as root.
23:02:12	<monochrom>	Does Coq crash if you use C libraries...
23:02:16	<maerwald[m]>	Haskell may not even crash if you have memory unsoundness
23:02:29	<sshine>	monochrom, not if it fails to compile, which it always does. -_-
23:02:37	<monochrom>	heh
23:03:38	<earendel>	rust could at best spare like 2/3 of the usual vulnerability .. ppl say. which is a lot of course.
23:04:26	→	slice joins (~slice@user/slice)
23:04:54	<sshine>	also, throw more type errors to scare careless programmers away. :-D
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23:05:40	<maerwald[m]>	Yeah, GHC shames bad programmers into giving up their career
23:05:52	<earendel>	those ppl should continue writing fibonacci recursions, not security relevant code.
23:06:12	sshine	realises he's not far from writing fibonacci recursions this evening.
23:06:19	<monochrom>	The benefit of Rust I appreciate the most is bringing properly done sum types to the C, C++, Go communities.
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23:06:30	<perro>	si\
23:06:33	<sshine>	monochrom, and type inference?
23:06:57	<maerwald[m]>	Go devs are still debating benefits of proper sum types
23:07:03	<maerwald[m]>	It's funny
23:07:05	<monochrom>	That's the 2nd or 3rd on my tier list.
23:07:28	<monochrom>	But my tier list is based on what I care, not necessarily what the world really needs.
23:07:32	<maerwald[m]>	It's like they're still in the 90s
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23:07:53	<monochrom>	My tier list may be like: 1. sum types; 2. the borrow system; 3. type inference
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23:08:58	<monochrom>	Sum types prevent even more bugs than the borrow system, IMO.
23:09:16	<maerwald[m]>	monochrom: I also care more about sum types than I do about functional or lazy
23:09:29	<maerwald[m]>	The best features are the simple ones you can steal
23:09:30	<earendel>	that borrow system isn't something anybody waited for i guess. it definitely is more work for the dev.
23:09:32	<monochrom>	"I forgot to check whether lookup() returns null" Solved by sum types.
23:10:10	<maerwald[m]>	earendel: the alternative is a proof assistant for memory soundness
23:10:18	<maerwald[m]>	Even more complicated
23:10:46	<earendel>	i see.
23:10:52	<maerwald[m]>	The borrow system has very simple rules
23:11:01	<maerwald[m]>	They sometimes make little sense
23:11:01	<earendel>	sounds good.
23:11:06	<maerwald[m]>	But that's irrelevant
23:11:19	<monochrom>	"the packet I received is one of 3 cases and I messed up which case is which" Solved by sum types.
23:11:53	<maerwald[m]>	The borrow checker in fact rejects a lot of sound programs
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23:12:09	<maerwald[m]>	The trade off is pragmatic
23:12:09	<dolio>	That happens with every checker.
23:12:40	<monochrom>	"my function should be partial but I don't bother to announce it because I don't know what to return" Solved by sum types.
23:13:33	<maerwald[m]>	Now let's talk about open sum types...still great?
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23:13:44	<maerwald[m]>	I can't decide
23:14:17	<monochrom>	"my function can fail for one of 3 reasons, how do I tell the caller which reason it is?" Solved by sum types.
23:14:41	<monochrom>	aka "C's errno is a disaster" Solved by sum types.
23:14:51	<earendel>	nan
23:15:02	<earendel>	look at your nan.
23:15:12	<maerwald[m]>	Well... now you have the problem of having 100 sum types across your application. ..
23:15:20	<maerwald[m]>	Or one that covers everything
23:15:26	<maerwald[m]>	Both are awful
23:15:31	<monochrom>	batman = repeat (sqrt (-1)) >:)
23:15:55	<maerwald[m]>	This is solved by open sum types...
23:16:03	<geekosaur>	NoN would be solvable if we didnb't need floating point compatibility with everything else
23:16:05	<maerwald[m]>	But they're very unergonomic
23:16:15	<earendel>	i thought the sum of integers would best be integer as well.
23:16:31	<earendel>	same for vectors.
23:16:55	<earendel>	and x should be forever set as 3.
23:17:38	<monochrom>	OK, parametric polymorphism should also be on my tier list, I forgot. Not sure where to put it relative to the other 3. All of them are great!
23:18:28	<monochrom>	Maybe higher than type inference because C's "use void* for generics" gets old really fast.
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23:19:39	<monochrom>	In retrospect, I think I rate "a language construct that enables you to finally say directly what you really mean" higher than "one more safety mechanism".
23:19:42	<earendel>	ok. static typing is not entirely new, conceptually.
23:20:24	<monochrom>	because if you say directly what you really mean, that already eliminates a lot of bugs, misunderstandings, forgetfulness.
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23:22:11	<earendel>	if you're coding software which primary goals are maintability and reliability (with a longer lifecycle) you would definitely prefer some typing over rapid dev features or when programming for performance.
23:22:58	<maerwald[m]>	Maintainability and reliability are kinda conflicting goals
23:23:11	<earendel>	as john carmack says; there's a power to the dark side.
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23:44:22	<sm>	oh, replace-megaparsec looks great. Check this out: https://github.com/jamesdbrock/replace-megaparsec#in-the-shell
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23:44:52	<sm>	how do you figure, maerwald ?
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23:52:53	<sm>	a new haskell shell attempt: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/rdinq2/using_haskell_as_my_shell/
23:53:06	<EvanR>	wait, static types are the dark side? cool
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All times are in UTC on 2021-12-10.