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Logs on 2021-12-13 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:02:49 <koz> Can I specify that a test-suite depends on a library, but not its tests?
00:02:56 <koz> I'm getting cyclic dependency errors in the solver.
00:04:26 <hololeap> that's weird, I would think that what you want would be the default
00:04:44 <koz> hololeap: Well, it's not, sadly.
00:04:51 <hololeap> this is cabal?
00:04:57 <koz> Yup.
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00:13:31 <jackdk> It could be that the package is set up funny, like all the build-depends are in a common stanza or something. I know the nixpkgs haskell infrastructure disables checks on a bunch of libraries to break cycles
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00:15:44 <koz> jackdk: Not as far as I can tell.
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00:34:21 <pfurla> how can I use language pragmas in a .lhs file?
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00:35:15 <jackdk> `{-# LANGUAGE DataKinds #-}` or whatever at teh very top of the file
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00:36:03 <geekosaur> with .lhs I'd expect it to work the same way as anything else in a .lhs, precede with > or wrap in \begin{code} … \end{code}
00:36:26 <pfurla> keep saying ``unlit' failed in phase `Literate pre-processor'. (Exit code: 1)` for {-# LANGUAGE LambdaCase #-}
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00:36:42 <geekosaur> I don't think it has to be the absolute first thing in the file because unlit runs before parsing]
00:36:56 <pfurla> geekosaur same thing with >
00:38:43 <monochrom> worksforme cannotreproduce
00:38:51 <geekosaur> same
00:38:56 <pfurla> interesting
00:39:10 <geekosaur> @where paste
00:39:10 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
00:39:16 <pfurla> I forgot a > in the last line of the source and it was causing the previous error
00:42:50 <pfurla> yeah, ^ was the issue, thanks guys
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01:26:12 <Guest48> Hey Im trying to make a function that creates a pattern like this
01:27:13 <Guest48> https://imgur.com/a/lMho8qo
01:27:17 <Guest48> so it takes 3 values
01:27:19 <Guest48> x y z
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01:27:56 <Guest48> x is the the height y is the width and z is the steps
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01:28:13 <Guest48> My code right now looks like this
01:28:20 <Guest48> steps :: Int -> Int -> String
01:28:21 <Guest48> steps n m = putStr (unlines (replicate m (concat(replicate n " " ++ replicate n "*"))))
01:28:57 <Guest48> so this creates the steps and the repetition
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01:29:54 <Guest48> but in the picture you can see if I specify n steps it should duplicate n times on a new line all the while the width is x+x every loop
01:30:47 <Guest48> I was wondering how do I call my functions n times whilst updating the doubling n
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01:30:57 <Guest48> if anyone could help it would be highly appreciated
01:31:09 <nosewings> What do you mean by "steps"?
01:31:35 <Guest48> so in the picture the two lines are repeated 4 times downwards
01:31:42 <Guest48> then the pattern is reversed
01:31:52 <Guest48> forget about the reversed part
01:32:16 <Guest48> but the 2 lines repeat 4 times whilst the number of spaces + number of astrexis double
01:32:52 <nosewings> So what values of x,y,z would generate the image you posted?
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01:33:46 <Guest48> so 2 3 4. 2 being the height, 3 being the width and 4 being steps
01:34:12 <Guest48> steps x y takes the height and the width
01:34:15 <Guest48> but im struggling on the steps
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01:34:32 <Guest48> all I would have to do is call steps 4 times and double the x every time its called
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01:35:08 <Guest48> sorry nosewings does that make sense
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01:38:46 <nosewings> Sure, but your type signature for steps doesn't seem right
01:38:53 <nosewings> It should be steps :: Int -> Int -> IO ()
01:39:58 <Guest48> yeah your right
01:40:04 <Guest48> I changed that whilst testing something out
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01:42:38 <Guest48> nosewings you think you know how to do it?
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01:45:34 <nosewings> OK, so is the idea just that you want to do the same thing some number of times?
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01:47:01 <Guest48> yep
01:47:23 <Guest48> nosewings but I need to update the parameters as well
01:47:32 <nosewings> OK, there are functions in the standard library for that
01:47:41 <nosewings> In this case, replicateM_ will do the job
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01:48:23 <Guest48> is there a way to do without using standard librarys?
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01:48:48 <Guest48> wait is it in built into haskell?
01:49:14 <nosewings> It's not a primitive; it's written in regular haskell
01:49:35 <Guest48> yh I can only use primitive
01:49:52 <nosewings> Ah, okay
01:50:44 <nosewings> Hm, but you're also using unlines, replicate, concat, ++; these are also not primitives
01:51:10 <nosewings> Anyway, the way to do this is with recursion
01:51:20 <Guest48> sorry im not allowed to import anything
01:51:22 <Guest48> thats the base rule
01:51:46 <nosewings> Oh, okay
01:51:50 <Guest48> if replicateM is like unlines/ replicate/concat then Im allowed to use it
01:52:06 <nosewings> It's not in the Prelude, so you can't use it
01:52:11 <Guest48> ah right
01:52:13 <Guest48> understood
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01:52:25 <Guest48> how would you do this with recursion
01:52:39 <nosewings> Actually, I don't think you even have to
01:52:48 <Guest48> even better xp
01:52:53 <nosewings> If you remove the `putStrLn`, you'll get a function that returns a String
01:53:09 <nosewings> Then you want to print z copies of that string
01:53:51 <Guest48> so would you use replicate again?
01:54:29 <nosewings> Yeah, and then you'll have to concat the resulting string
01:54:38 <nosewings> Er, resulting list
01:54:45 <nosewings> Might have to be careful with newlines
01:55:19 <Guest48> yh I tried that with replicate and concat but it gave me extra new lines
01:55:27 <Guest48> because then I had to do unlines again
01:56:47 <nosewings> Oh, but do you want to increase the number of asterisks at each step?
01:57:10 <Guest48> yep
01:57:17 <Guest48> so double them basically
01:57:21 <Guest48> and double the amount of spaces
01:57:49 <Guest48> not double
01:57:53 <Guest48> x+x
01:58:42 <nosewings> Okay, so you do have to use recursion
01:59:23 <Guest48> no problem
01:59:49 <nosewings> (Might be a fancy way to do it without it, but)
02:00:06 <nosewings> The other trick is that you need to use some sort of helper function
02:00:18 <Guest48> nah recursion is fine
02:00:20 <nosewings> Oh, or maybe you don't
02:00:30 <nosewings> So it will look something like
02:00:40 <nosewings> steps m n 0 = ...
02:00:44 <nosewings> steps m n p = ...
02:01:06 <nosewings> Where the first one is the case where you have 0 steps left, and the second one is where you still have some steps left to go
02:02:27 <Guest48> m has to increase as well
02:02:40 <nosewings> Right, so you call the function again with a new value of m
02:03:17 <Guest48> so steps m n 0, step m+m n 0, step m+m+m n p etc?
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02:04:05 <nosewings> The sequence of recursive calls will look like steps m n p, steps m (2*m) (p - 1), steps m (3*m) (p - 2) ...
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02:04:49 <Guest48> okk
02:04:51 <Guest48> that makes sense
02:05:00 <nosewings> i.e., `steps m n p` should end up calling itself like `steps (2*m) (n+m) (p - 1)
02:05:15 <nosewings> You probably will need a helper function too, because you need to remember what the original value of m was
02:05:24 <Guest48> got it
02:05:55 <Guest48> so what would the helper function do
02:06:33 <nosewings> The helper function would do basically all of the work
02:07:22 <nosewings> Your function would end up looking something like steps m n p = steps' m n p where steps' x y z = ...
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02:08:09 <nosewings> And then steps' calls itself recursively like `steps' (x + m) (y + m) (p - 1)
02:08:46 <Guest48> okk let me try and write this down, im new to haskell so im not entirely sure how to write this but Ill see
02:08:50 <nosewings> The point is that this lets you remember what the original value of `m` was, so you always increase by the original amount instead of doubling
02:09:03 <Guest48> i see
02:09:24 <Guest48> whats the base case for the recursion?
02:11:07 <nosewings> Something like `steps' x y 0 = ""`
02:11:43 <Guest48> got it
02:12:38 <nosewings> And then you append the strings at every step
02:13:17 <Guest48> in the helper function or the main steps function
02:13:37 <nosewings> In the helper function, because `steps` doesn't do anything except call the helper function
02:13:53 <nosewings> Oh, look up where-syntax if you're unfamiliar with that keyword
02:14:16 <Guest48> got it will do
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02:21:12 <snake> my haskell is spinning i wonder how long it will take to finish day 6 like this.. any suggestions? https://dpaste.com/7J4ZKM9FW
02:23:14 <glguy> snake: you can probably finish part 1 like that, but not part 2
02:23:40 <snake> yeah lol pt 1 was fast, but pt 2 is just... spinning away
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02:34:35 <dsal> snake: 256 is a bigger number than 80. :)
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02:35:05 <snake> mhm, yeah im a total newbie with this haskell / functional stuff
02:35:22 <dsal> It's not haskell/functional. This is one of those where the examples gives you a clue.
02:35:34 <dsal> For the small example, you'd have a list of 26,984,457,539 fish.
02:36:05 <snake> o
02:36:44 <dsal> For the 255th run, you'd need to traverse a list about that big and do stuff to each element, including making new elements.
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02:37:44 <glguy> We haven't had anything this year that will be particular hard just as a consequence of using Haskell
02:37:51 <snake> oh i guess i could just count the newfish
02:38:02 <snake> wait AAAH
02:38:03 <snake> idk
02:38:28 <dsal> I managed to make something really hard by trying to use ST Arrays and having type inference be able to keep up.
02:38:35 <jackdk> Why does `transformers` package have an AccumT and a CPS WriterT? Is there a difference?
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02:38:51 <snake> maybe i can use like a count for each fish if they have a synchronized time
02:38:57 <dsal> It's pretty weird. I'll have code that works just fine, and then I'll add a newSTRef and it'll suddenly have no idea what these arrays are.
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02:45:14 <glguy> dsal: which problem had you pull out mutable arrays?
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02:47:30 <Guest4846> 'steps :: Int -> Int -> Int -> IO ()
02:47:31 <Guest4846> steps m n p = steps` m n p
02:47:31 <Guest4846>   where
02:47:32 <Guest4846>     steps` x y 0 = ""
02:47:32 <Guest4846>     steps` x y z = steps` (x+n) n (p-1)
02:47:33 <Guest4846>     steps` x y z = (unlines (replicate y (concat(replicate x " " ++ replicate y "*"))))
02:47:33 <Guest4846> '
02:47:46 <Guest4846> im getting some sort of parse error on this code? anyone know why
02:48:15 <hololeap> jackdk: AccumT is like a more powerful WriterT or a restricted StateT. It threads state like StateT, so you can `look` at the current state, but it only lets you mappend using `add`
02:48:36 <jackdk> hololeap: ah, missed the read-side bit
02:49:02 <hololeap> it's fairly useful although it lacks a lot of the mtl instances
02:49:59 <jackdk> yeah I'm trying to get a new transformer for amazonka right at the moment - I have "lift MonadFoo through AmazonkaT" but not "lift MonadAmazonka through FooT"
02:50:17 <dsal> glguy: I was trying it on day 11. It was… a little faster.
02:50:23 <dsal> So much more code.
02:50:28 <jackdk> and the design is awkward because ResourceT is a poo sometimes
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02:51:31 <jackdk> the main problem is that if I make the class provide `askEnv :: m Amazonka.Env` then I induce MonadResource constraints everywhere and lose mocking
02:51:46 <nosewings> Guest4846: the problem is the backtick
02:52:06 <nosewings> Backticks are syntax in Haskell; you need to use an an apostrophe
02:53:56 <jackdk> if I make a class with methods like `sendEither :: (AWSRequest req, MonadAmazonka m) => req -> m (Either Error (AWSResponse req))` then I have to give up either GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving or `paginate :: (AWSPager req, MonadAmazonka m) => req -> ConduitT () (AWSResponse req) m ()`
02:55:18 <jackdk> if I make a class whose method is a homomorphism from `Free (Coyoneda AWSAction) a -> m a` (a la ocharles), then I have to give up `reconfigure`/`within`/`once`/`timeout` combinators which are "`bracket`-like"
02:55:27 <jackdk> very interested in opinions on how best to solve this
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02:56:53 <jackdk> Axman6: you around?
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03:16:17 <dibblego> I'm dad but not around.
03:16:47 <jackdk> dibblego: got any opinions onthe problem outlined above?
03:17:06 <dibblego> woah context shift
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03:17:23 <dibblego> I'm not good at those without working with actual code tbh
03:18:43 <dibblego> oh yeah, I roughly know that problem... I typically give up GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving since the other contenders are too useful to give up
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03:36:29 <jackdk> dibblego: here is the problem https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/JWvF4erR/MTLClassDesign.hs
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03:40:32 <dibblego> will look I promise, millions of things stacked
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03:48:07 <hololeap> jackdk: just a shot in the dark, but have you looked into using polysemy for this? personally, I haven't used it
03:50:25 <jackdk> hololeap: in the effect system space I think you would need polysemy or something like it to write something like `within :: Region -> Eff effs a -> Eff effs a`. But the work codebase I'm upgrading is built on MTL and I want to do this right for MTL and opensource it, then worry about effect systems once things mature some more. polysemy needs plugins and isovector is on break from it, eff needs new ghc primops, etc.
03:51:26 <jackdk> `freer-simple`, for example, is not powerful enough
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03:58:12 <EvanR> stupid question after reading the ocharles blog link on monad stacks and APIs: why can't the API calls have type IO something
03:59:08 <EvanR> is it then impossible to use from an enterprise haskell monad stack technology
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04:06:58 <Guest71> ?src ($)
04:06:58 <lambdabot> f $ x = f x
04:07:03 <EvanR> IO is untestable?
04:07:21 <Guest71> ?src (%)
04:07:21 <lambdabot> x % y = reduce (x * signum y) (abs y)
04:09:36 <Guest71> Hi, all. Is my typing of `?src ($)` visible to all of the people here?
04:09:43 <EvanR> yes
04:09:56 <EvanR> you could privmsg lambdabot if you want
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04:10:38 <Guest71> Ok, I wll try that. Thanks. I just need a way to check sources of commonly used functions.
04:11:18 <dsal> Guest71: That's not the actual source. You can click on the source link from the docs.
04:11:34 <dsal> The @src thing just gives you a simple model to consider.
04:11:41 <dsal> (though sometimes it's right)
04:11:42 <dsal> @src fix
04:11:42 <lambdabot> fix f = let x = f x in x
04:12:25 <Guest71> I wish this functionality will be built into GHCi
04:12:47 <dsal> You can easily add things like this to ghci
04:12:59 <Guest71> Really? How?
04:13:33 <dsal> With :def settings in your .ghci
04:14:02 <Guest71> Great, I will try that. Thanks a lot.
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04:15:17 <dsal> Just clicking on "Source" while reading the docs is going to be the most reliable thing, though.
04:15:54 <jackdk> EvanR: if you're just providing an API for direct calls, you often can (though a `MonadIO m` constraint) is often easier to use. But yeah, there's two parts AIUI: 1. the testability you mentioned; 2. having some kind of monadic context gives you a good place to stow things like API keys etc
04:16:28 <Guest71> No, :def is used to define new commands, but I actually want a way to get definition of built in functions if available if GHCi, so I can find the info without leaving from my terminal.
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04:17:13 <EvanR> I see, open a long term session sort of thing
04:18:43 <EvanR> Guest71, ghci generally doesn't have access to sources, and you can download the @src list if you want. But the real sources are also available
04:19:05 <snake> my new screaming-fast solution for day 6: https://dpaste.com/7S4S87HV4
04:19:24 <EvanR> oh man
04:20:14 <EvanR> I implemented day 6 with 8 registers and now runtime is dominated by loading the program and printing out the answer :(
04:20:40 <snake> registers?
04:20:52 <dsal> snake: (f0:f1:f2:f3:f4:f5:f6:f7:f8:[]) is [f0, f1, f2, f3, f4, f5, f6, f7, f8]
04:20:59 <EvanR> yeah, x86-64
04:21:07 <snake> dsal, thanks :V
04:22:10 <EvanR> each day can be computed with 1 add, if you do 9 days at a time, you can get away with no loop breaker checks xD
04:22:23 <EvanR> if you do 99 at a time, even better, which loop unroll can help with
04:22:33 <dsal> That's a neat way to do it, though it'll complain with -Wall. I saw someone else do that with a tuuple.
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04:37:38 <pfurla> snake: you can do `drop 9 . take 10 . iterate breedFishes $ [0..8]` instead of `breedFishes [0..8] 10`
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04:44:57 <dsal> drop 9 . take 10 sounds like (!! 10)
04:45:10 <dsal> > drop 9 . take 10 $ [1..]
04:45:11 <lambdabot> [10]
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04:45:20 <dsal> > [1..] !! 10
04:45:21 <EvanR> (:[]) . (!! 10) xD
04:45:21 <lambdabot> 11
04:45:39 <dsal> Off by one... but iterate is zero based.
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04:45:40 <EvanR> it's going to eat the 10 who is alarmed
04:45:44 <pfurla> > [1.10] !! 11
04:45:45 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.!!: index too large
04:45:54 <dsal> You won't get that with iterate.
04:46:05 <pfurla> > drop 11 . take 10 [1..10]
04:46:07 <lambdabot> error:
04:46:07 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘a -> [a1]’ with actual type ‘[a0]’
04:46:07 <lambdabot> • Possible cause: ‘take’ is applied to too many arguments
04:46:09 <pfurla> > drop 11 . take 10 $ [1..10]
04:46:10 <lambdabot> []
04:47:02 <dsal> iterate produces an infinite list. you don't have to be careful to not run past the end of it
04:47:13 <pfurla> oh, true
04:47:46 <pfurla> but I generally ignore unsafe functions
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04:48:54 <pfurla> the problem I wonder if using drop. take. iterate instead of direct recursion will use much more memory
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04:50:50 <EvanR> this problem requires zero ram xD
04:50:52 <dsal> Safe is relative. Sometimes you've gotta divide.
04:51:04 <hololeap> snake: this is how I did it. similar, but using different tools: https://dpaste.com/EMAJUY2LG
04:51:04 <dsal> EvanR: Is that a lot?
04:52:03 <dsal> hololeap: what is MonoidalIntMap?
04:53:07 <xerox> I'd wager an IntMap containing monoids
04:53:21 <hololeap> it's a wrapper around IntMap that gives a different semigroup instance. it basically makes `unionWith (<>)` the semigroup instance
04:53:36 <jackdk> why that was never the default instance is beyond me
04:53:43 <dsal> oh cool. The default one is kind of unexpected.
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04:54:01 <dsal> I've written that bug a few times.
04:54:11 <hololeap> @hackage monoidal-containers
04:54:11 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monoidal-containers
04:54:20 <dsal> Things shouldn't compile if they don't do what I want.
04:54:34 <int-e> dsal: easy!
04:54:53 <int-e> dsal: it only gets tricky when you expect some things to actually compile
04:54:54 <dsal> hololeap: Thanks. I've needed that often.
04:55:13 <dsal> int-e: I was doing some ST recently, so I stopped expecting things to compile.
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05:20:05 <int-e> c_wraith: after checking literally billions of initial configuration, https://paste.debian.net/1223190/ is the worst one I have, with 45174 steps before synchronizing. From what I've seen, finding one with 29734 after only 440k attempts was very lucky.
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05:41:36 <xerox> int-e: today I have a chance
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05:51:03 <xerox> is there nothing like this for lists? file:///Users/user/.ghcup/ghc/9.3.20211020/share/doc/ghc-9.3.20211020/html/libraries/containers/Data-Set.html#v:splitMember
05:52:40 <int-e> xerox: that link is surprisingly useless ;-)
05:53:03 <xerox> hahaha
05:53:10 <int-e> libraries/containers/Data-Set.html#v:splitMember
05:53:11 <xerox> I made a point of having it locally but now... I see
05:53:14 <int-e> ...
05:53:21 <int-e> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.6.5.1/docs/Data-Set.html#v:splitMember
05:53:22 <xerox> yeah you can figure it out
05:53:52 <int-e> This was Firefox screwing with me... I did select the link in the url bar and it still pasted a different selection.
05:54:15 <EvanR> Data.Set (and Data.Map) are so cool
05:55:06 <int-e> xerox: | (xs, _:ys) <- span (/= '|') "abc|def" -- works as a guard
05:55:24 <xerox> > Data.Set.splitMember [] (Data.Set.fromList [["3","4"],["6","8"],[],["fold","along","y","5"]])
05:55:25 <lambdabot> (fromList [],True,fromList [["3","4"],["6","8"],["fold","along","y","5"]])
05:55:38 <xerox> with lists it'd be... *chef kiss*
05:55:46 <int-e> huh
05:56:09 <int-e> I wouldn't want to rely on "fold" > "9"
05:56:30 <xerox> no of course, in the case of lists the ordering would be of the elements of the list, not that :D
05:57:09 <EvanR> your set is contaminated
05:57:23 <EvanR> with the stringly typed
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06:00:55 <EvanR> haskell has advantage on tonights puzzle because it's good at folds
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06:02:17 <int-e> EvanR: that's a good pun, I approve
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07:30:38 <lambdabot> Bifunctor p => (c -> d) -> p c c -> p d d
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08:19:27 <maplike> https://stackoverflow.com/a/69651010 - works, so it's likely I am misinterpreting the idea
08:19:44 <maplike> since this is about _counting_ combinations, why Solved Cent and not Solved Int?
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08:23:16 <maplike> in divide, Solved 0/1 presumably signify failure/success?
08:23:49 <maplike> in conquer, what does it mean to add the 2 params, a and b, of Pending? What do those 2 values (as Cents) signify?
08:24:10 <maplike> in conquer, I would have expected we just need to sum the Solveds.
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08:24:31 <maplike> in conquer, a and b are Cents, whereas in divide they were ([Cent], Cent) (aka ChangePuzzleArgs) - I can't see how that transformation happens.
08:24:55 <maplike> more questions than lines of code!
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08:52:41 <EvanR> nice post
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08:57:25 <maplike> EvanR - the hylo one?
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09:23:29 <psygate> Given that I have a type 'data State a = Minimum a | Maximum a | Unclassified a', can I unpack a without knowing the specific constructor used?
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09:31:33 <kuribas> psygate: getValue :: State a -> a; getValue (Minimum x) = x; getValue ...
09:32:13 phma_ is now known as phma
09:33:30 <kuribas> alternatively: data StateDescr = Minimum | Maximum | Unclassified; data State a = State a StateDescr.
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09:50:17 <psygate> kuribas, i like the second one, thank you
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09:52:24 <psygate> Ah, and is there a good way to implement Ord based on ''data State a = Minimum a | Maximum a | Unclassified a' ? I dont want to define compare x y for every constructor
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09:53:28 <hololeap> it depends on what behavior you're looking for
09:54:05 <hololeap> do you want Maximum a > Minimum a > Unclassified a ?
09:54:53 <psygate> No, I'd like to compare the contained values.
09:54:59 <kuribas> only?
09:55:10 <psygate> The outer type is just meant as a local wrapper, that ads a tag but shouldn't influence "how" it works
09:55:46 <kuribas> instance Ord (State a) where compare (State x _) (State y _) = compare x y
09:59:25 <hololeap> if you use the original data structure as opposed to kuribas' alternative, then you would have to a) enumerate all combinations of constructors b) write a function that can extract `a' from any of your constructors and compare on that directly
09:59:29 <psygate> That doesn't work. I've got it defined as a "wrapper" so to say
09:59:36 <psygate> Do I have to restructure the type to make it work like that?
09:59:51 <psygate> Oh okay, well that answers it, thanks hololeap
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10:02:20 <kuribas> yeah "compare = compare `on` getValue" for the first.
10:02:50 <hololeap> by defining an Ord instance for (State a), you're kind of implying that (compare (Minimum 5) (Maximum 5)) is discrete from (compare 5 5). if you really _mean_ that you want to compare the inner values, then write it as such, IMO
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10:04:50 <psygate> I'll use kuribas suggestion for the type, it looks like a much cleaner solution
10:05:37 <hololeap> yeah it's like rewriting (a + a + a) as (a * 3)
10:06:19 <hololeap> you can do that kind of simple algebra on types, hence the name algebraic data types
10:07:32 <psygate> Is there a solution for getter / setter now? I've seen there are record types
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10:09:30 <hololeap> you could use record syntax pretty painlessly here. data State a = State { stateVal :: a, stateDescr :: StateDescr }
10:09:34 <kuribas> getter/setter = lens
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10:10:23 <hololeap> that would give you two functions that act as your getters: stateVal :: State a -> a ; stateDescr :: State a -> StateDescr
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10:11:29 <hololeap> and you can use record syntax as a setter as well: State 4 Minimum { stateVal = 10 } -- this yields (State 10 Minimum)
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10:13:00 <hololeap> that little example would actually have to be written as: (State 4 Minimum) { stateVal = 10 }
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10:16:01 <hololeap> otherwise the record update would apply to Minimum (an error) as opposed to applying to the State that I'm constructing there
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10:20:27 <psygate> Ahhh, and is there a way to constraint the State type to only orderable types?
10:20:43 <psygate> Something like 'Ord a => data State a StateDesc' ?
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10:21:17 <hololeap> you'll want to put `Ord a => ...` on whatever functions actually need it
10:21:27 <merijn> psygate: You can't really constraint types
10:23:23 <psygate> makes sense, thanks. its been a while that ive used haskell. you may be able to tell.
10:23:35 <dminuoso> psygate: We used to be able to do this, but it occured this was mostly pointless.
10:23:51 <dminuoso> This does not have any meaningful gains and just artificially limits your code
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10:25:42 <dminuoso> Instead we place constraints on function definition sites instead, like `f :: Ord a => State a StateDesc`, this has the cute benefit of allowing the creation of State for non-Ord choices of `a` in code regions that does not need `f`
10:25:50 <dminuoso> So we get the freedom to write more code
10:26:11 <dminuoso> Uh, the above was meant to read `f :: Ord a => State a StateDesc -> T`
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10:30:26 <hololeap> if you had an Ord constraint on the whole type, then you wouldn't be able to make a Functor instance for State, for instance, because Functor requires that there are no constraints on `a'. it has to work with any function (a -> b) for _any_ `a' and `b'
10:31:45 <kuribas> hololeap: perhaps you could with a GADT?
10:32:58 <hololeap> I don't think so. you would run into the same problem that we have with Set no matter how you approach it
10:33:25 <kuribas> But that's because Set doesn't have an Ord in the type.
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10:36:04 <hololeap> it might as well. it requires Ord for anything that would involve modifying the data
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10:37:44 <sprout> can I post my egel solution for day 13, task 2?
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10:40:59 <hololeap> only if it's egel
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10:42:30 <sprout> yay!
10:42:34 <sprout> https://github.com/egel-lang/aoc-2021/blob/main/day13/task2.eg <- day 13, task2, egel solution. just waste cycles on it
10:42:37 <sprout> https://pasteboard.co/WUoK7G5rKdWk.png <- with colors!
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10:44:19 <sprout> for haskellers. egel is roughly untyped impure lambda calculus + constants. so shouldn't be hard to read
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10:44:35 <sprout> (+eager)
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10:55:01 <hololeap> looks interesting
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10:57:06 <kuribas> egel = e(a)g(er) (hask)el(l)?
10:57:49 <merijn> Clearly sprout just likes hedgehogs :p
10:58:30 <dminuoso> Eegel is german for Hihrudinea
10:58:45 <dminuoso> I assume that is meant.
10:58:48 <sprout> nah, it's Dutch for hedgehog. I sometimes have a hedgehog in my garden I try to take care of
10:59:05 <merijn> hah!
10:59:08 <merijn> I was right!
10:59:26 <sprout> I's also a bit of a pun on Python. hedgehogs are somewhat venom resitant
10:59:30 <sprout> *resistant
10:59:45 <merijn> Shoulda gone for mongoose then :p
11:00:02 <sprout> when I add types!
11:00:21 <kuribas> sprout: so you wasted a chance for a clever acronym? :-P
11:00:23 <sprout> (probably not going to happen)
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11:01:12 <dminuoso> sprout: What is eager rewriting exactly?
11:01:29 <dminuoso> Is that just fancy for graph reduction?
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11:02:00 <sprout> opposite of lazy. I forgot, it's right-to-left bottom up reduction?
11:02:11 <dminuoso> right-to-left?
11:02:24 <sprout> lazy is top-to-bottom left-to-right, I think. sorry forgot
11:02:38 dminuoso does not know what left or right means
11:02:43 <merijn> kuribas: As long as you have a theme :p
11:02:49 <sprout> yah, when you look at a term graph there are a number of rewrite strategies
11:03:03 <merijn> The CS group at my university had a running theme of naming all projects after black and white animals
11:03:37 <kuribas> zebra?
11:03:51 <kuribas> How many animals are white and black?
11:03:57 <sprout> and some of them can fall in a taxonomy of 'what term do I rewrite'
11:04:19 <merijn> DAS (badger), Ibis and a bunch of others, I'd have to look up the list
11:04:27 <sprout> I think laziness corresponds to always rewriting the top term of the graph, but forgot
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14:27:25 <singpolyma> 👋️ I have an error in production: `CallStack (from HasCallStack):\n error, called at DB.hs:116:16 in main:DB` is there a way these days to get that call stack to be deeper than one level?
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14:33:20 <dminuoso> Does POSIX have a mechanism to determine whether a given file is a symlink or a socket?
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14:43:03 <[exa]> dminuoso: lstat?
14:43:23 <geekosaur> lstat() aka https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/unix-2.7.2.2/System-Posix-Files.html#v:getSymbolicLinkStatus
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15:18:54 <oats> anyone using emacs and lsp-haskell know how to disable these import suggestions? https://paste.xinu.at/JpHdi/
15:19:58 <oats> I thought it might be `lsp-haskell-refineimports-on' set to nil, but that didn't do it
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15:23:00 <oats> oh nvm, I think `lsp-haskell-importlens-on' was it
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15:37:35 <dminuoso> [exa], geekosaur: Thanks!
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15:37:57 <dminuoso> Unrelatedly, does conduit have some efficient way to find a substring in a bytestring conduit?
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15:38:58 <dminuoso> Or do I have to roll my own KMP ontop of it?
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16:13:04 <samlamamma> Is finding morphisms between ADT:s easy? F.ex. "Find isomorphism for inductively defined A and inductively defined B"
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16:14:08 <samlamamma> It sounds like an interesting and useful problem to me, but maybe I'm too out of the loop to know that this is simple :). I'm thinking it's easy!
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16:43:43 <raehik> Just to confirm, I can't do "mixed" record syntax, right? Like "data A a = A a { a2 :: a } a"
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16:44:02 <raehik> I should just write my own function for it
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16:48:26 <xerox> what you you want that to do?
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16:50:06 <geekosaur> projection function for just one field, presumably
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16:54:07 <c_wraith> Funny, pattern-matching and construction syntax would both work fine* with that. *though obviously you couldn't match the unnamed field by name
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16:55:55 <raehik> c_wraith: what would that look like? I wasn't able to make an "unnamed" field
16:56:02 <c_wraith> But it would require a pretty significant change to template haskell code that works with data types, and probably generics too
16:56:23 <raehik> Ah I see, there's nothing in the language restricting it
16:56:25 <c_wraith> raehik: oh, it's not possible. I was pondering how much would change if it was
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17:00:20 <[exa]> samlamamma: depends on what you want from the morphism. Technically `Integer` is isomorphic to anything. :]
17:00:41 <c_wraith> Usually that sort of thing means structural isomorphism
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17:01:14 <geekosaur> for that matter so is Int#, since that's how computers work with anything that isn't an Int#
17:01:14 <kuribas> [exa]: not to Int?
17:01:25 <[exa]> ok (*hides a little statue of godel*)
17:01:32 <[exa]> kuribas: Int too small :'(
17:01:54 <kuribas> anything countable infinite, right?
17:02:05 <[exa]> well you can encode the generating function
17:02:08 <c_wraith> So like... Fix Maybe is structurally isomorphic to inductive Nat
17:02:58 <kritzefitz> kuribas: I don't think computers can work directly with anything uncountably infinite.
17:03:27 <kuribas> kritzefitz: maybe symbolically?
17:03:58 <[exa]> hm, how complex it is to find a structural morphism? (ie isn't it undecidable if you encode something really ugly like PKP to your types?)
17:04:14 <c_wraith> Korrespondence?
17:04:28 <kritzefitz> kuribas: Maybe, but wouldn't the symbols be countable and thus be isomorphic to Integer again?
17:04:38 <[exa]> c_wraith: I'm from the korresponding part of the word, yeah :D
17:04:38 <monochrom> Symbolically, you can only have countably many symbols.
17:04:45 <[exa]> correspondence for sure. :D
17:05:10 <monochrom> For example, Mathematica can still only represent countably many real numbers, not all real numbers.
17:05:40 <c_wraith> [exa]: but yeah, when you start using data types with extra restrictions on them (GADTs), you can make structural properties arbitrarily complex
17:05:42 <monochrom> Unless you go constructivism and declare "all real numbers" = "all constructible real numbers".
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17:07:03 <[exa]> actually (I hit this a while ago and kinda forgot to solve for myself) -- there's only countably infinite of constructible real numbers right? (because of the number of programs to construct them)
17:07:12 <c_wraith> yes
17:07:25 <monochrom> or number of strings you can write down
17:07:25 <c_wraith> there are only countably infinite possible programs
17:07:41 <[exa]> hmm
17:07:50 <[exa]> any example of inconstructible one?
17:07:55 <kuribas> kritzefitz: actually, computers cannot deal with anything infinite
17:07:56 <[exa]> (not asking anyone to construct it)
17:07:56 <c_wraith> I'm sure you can create a programming language such that possible programs = strings :)
17:08:06 <c_wraith> [exa]: Chitin's Omega
17:08:21 <c_wraith> err. Chaitin
17:08:30 <[exa]> uuuuuuh gooood, I didn't know this
17:08:32 <[exa]> thanks
17:08:48 <c_wraith> he is not a waxy exoskeleton
17:08:51 <c_wraith> even if that'd be cool
17:09:05 <monochrom> So even if you are classical and accept "I don't have to write how to produce, I just have to write a predicate for what to satisfy", which still is a string, as long as you are formal, you can only specify countably many real numbers.
17:09:15 <samlamamma> Yup, interest really comes from me wasting time writing functions going from different serialization formats
17:09:42 <monochrom> Which brings us to: There are countable models of set theory.
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17:10:50 <[exa]> yap I recall some of that, but I completely missed this halting probability
17:12:49 <samlamamma> At work I write C/C++ in a meager environment. This means that I have to write a lot of boring code. So of course I'm interested in program
17:12:49 <samlamamma> synthesis to help me out
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17:13:32 <monochrom> Now that the OP is here, my turn to talk about that. Generally, "isomorphism" is ambiguous in the Haskell community. Try it: Define "isomorphism".
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17:14:18 <monochrom> I may even be able to claim s/ambiguous/a buzzword/, i.e., you don't even know of one definition, lack alone multiple definitions.
17:14:42 <[exa]> samlamamma: the conversion problem is hard. There are lenses to avoid conversion completely (allow you to work kinda the same way with many structures) and in Hs it's pretty easy to make a relatively universal ADT for all possibilities (which is roughly how pandoc went around that)
17:14:57 <samlamamma> Probably f: A -> B, g: B -> A s.t. f(g(b)) == id(b) ^ g(f(a)) == id(a) for all a, b
17:15:34 <[exa]> samlamamma: not sure if any of that applies to C++ though, probably depends on what data you represent
17:15:35 <samlamamma> Proof of isomorphism is given by finding g and f
17:15:49 <monochrom> That's just bijection. But sure. Now see [exa]'s Integer answer.
17:16:20 <monochrom> Does that help with understanding the correspondence between serialization formats?
17:16:21 [exa] hides the godel statue deeper in the bag
17:16:22 <samlamamma> monochrom: But it's a lossless bijection, so what am I missing? (reading int ans now)
17:16:23 <monochrom> I bet no.
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17:17:49 <[exa]> samlamamma: isomorphism differs from bijection in the assurance that it preserves some predefined structure. Actually the Integer answer is quite borderline on that
17:18:04 <[exa]> predefined/assumed/required
17:18:28 <monochrom> For example, both XML and Markdown are in bijection with Integer.
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17:18:32 <[exa]> samlamamma: what data types you have there? (just curious)
17:18:35 <samlamamma> Right, but this "preserves [...]" would have to be encoded in some logical predicate
17:18:50 <[exa]> samlamamma: yes, usually you have "relations to keep working"
17:18:54 <samlamamma> [exa]: Oh, just D-Bus messages and JSON.
17:19:00 <monochrom> That still doesn't help you with conversion, or alternatively to argue that there can't be a conversion.
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17:20:22 <samlamamma> monochrom: I imagine that in most "reasonable" cases finding a conversion (let's not be classical) might be easy. After all, programmers can do it easily
17:20:45 <monochrom> Yeah, about that.
17:20:53 <monochrom> Programmers make bugs just as easily.
17:21:03 <samlamamma> Haha :-)
17:21:43 <[exa]> samlamamma: anyway, in this case in Hs you'd probabl just parse/format the dbus format to/from Aeson and let the rest generate jsons and yamls for you :]
17:21:51 <monochrom> I don't accept "programmers can do it easily". I only accept "programmers can do it with bugs easily".
17:22:53 <samlamamma> monochrom: That's fair enough!
17:22:56 <samlamamma> [exa]: Yeah, "someone else having done the work" is the real answer here, but not as interesting!
17:24:03 <[exa]> let's go to the morphisms then, what are the operations you're doing on the stuff?
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17:24:33 <[exa]> if it's just conversion, the "common middle format" is usually the way, preferably with a good ADT
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17:24:43 <samlamamma> I'd just like to give input/output examples and have my computer throw programs at me in <100ms and having me refine its responses with more
17:24:44 <samlamamma> examples and logic! What's so hard about that??? /sarcasm
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17:25:32 <samlamamma> [exa]: That's the boring part, we're not doing anything with the data. We're just shuffling it around.
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17:26:13 <samlamamma> But now I think we're getting into org issues with my work re why no one has put in the effort for a common library to do this
17:26:13 <samlamamma> stuff for us :-)
17:26:18 <[exa]> good, just implement instance FromJson Dbus, instance ToJson Dbus, then convert=id
17:26:45 <EvanR> isn't bijection literally shuffling things around
17:26:50 <EvanR> in some sense
17:26:53 <[exa]> yap
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18:13:04 <dminuoso> Lazy IO strikes again.
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18:14:23 <dminuoso> I think?
18:14:24 <dminuoso> openBinaryFile: resource busy (file is locked)
18:15:29 <dminuoso> This is so annoying, cant even figure out why :(
18:16:08 <EvanR> windows?
18:16:17 <dminuoso> Linux
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18:17:08 <dminuoso> Im recursing nested zip files using `zip`, and for each entry I use withSystemTempFile, I write it to the provided handle, and then use `zip` to open the provided path
18:17:22 <dminuoso> And in that recursive zip I get that error
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18:17:44 <dminuoso> The writing happens using Data.ByteString.hPut
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18:18:40 <dminuoso> I wonder, does the GHC RTS employ some kind of internal locking when opening files?
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18:19:11 <EvanR> so opening a file for reading that is already open for writing and in the middle of things. But I thought writing wasn't lazy at all
18:20:21 <dminuoso> I was suspecting lazy IO anyhow
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18:21:11 <dminuoso> I naively expected to simply get two separate file descriptors under the hood
18:21:16 <EvanR> are you closing the file before opening it
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18:22:36 <dminuoso> Nope
18:22:57 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/System-IO.html#g:8 suggests this would be fine
18:23:09 <dminuoso> oh, but maybe I didnt read the warning right
18:23:40 <dminuoso> I first start with a write handler via withSystemTempFile, and then (hopefully) a read only handle using zip
18:24:07 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zip-1.7.2/docs/src/Codec.Archive.Zip.Internal.html#scanArchive
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18:24:28 <EvanR> if openBinaryFile error is about the large zip file you're reading, makes sense
18:24:39 <EvanR> if it's about the temp file, not sure
18:24:54 <EvanR> oh, are you trying to lazy I/O open the temp file...
18:25:33 <dminuoso> Seems that way
18:26:31 <EvanR> what if you strict open the temp file xD
18:26:49 <dminuoso> Well I guess I can simply close the file and manage it with bracket myself
18:26:52 <dolio> What is "strict open"?
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18:28:21 <dminuoso> Anyway, the RTS has some kind of lockFile that mkFD uses
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18:28:39 <dminuoso> Sadly without any comments or documentation. :(
18:28:39 <EvanR> Data.ByteString.getContents
18:29:06 <EvanR> er
18:29:08 <EvanR> hGetContents
18:29:29 <dolio> Okay, so nothing to do with opening a file.
18:30:02 <EvanR> yeah
18:30:17 <dminuoso> But judging from a skim, it seems that the RTS does not allow having two simultaneous non-ReadMode handles to the same file
18:32:13 <EvanR> that's a concrete that to be tested
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18:32:21 <EvanR> to see if it's false at least
18:32:33 <EvanR> concrete thing*
18:32:45 <dminuoso> Well the code in mkFD is quite clear
18:32:54 <dminuoso> It's just surprising because zip actually opens in ReadMode
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18:34:11 <EvanR> the docs for lazy bytestring suggests there's a lock on something that's being lazy I/O read
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18:35:22 <dminuoso> Im not using lazy bytestrings though
18:36:08 <EvanR> oh
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18:44:21 <edrx> hi! I am learning Agda using Wadler's PLFA and Peter Selinger's lectures. Both Wadler and Selinger _define_ the logical connectives in their tutorials, but I can't find references to where these definitions are in Agda's stdlib... is there a module of Agda that I can import and that defines _∧_, _∨_, _↔_, etc, for truth-values?
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18:47:10 <earendel> kritzefitz: hm. calculus can deal with infinitely small margins. lim->0 ..
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18:51:19 <earendel> however the coastline of england is infinitely long. the more precise you measure, the longer it gets. :)
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18:51:28 <earendel> rough huh?
18:51:56 <dolio> It probably isn't.
18:51:56 <EvanR> even though there possible haskell programs is countable, you can't create a list of all Stream Bool (that could be generated by haskell)
18:52:19 <earendel> dolio: it is.
18:52:20 <EvanR> in haskell
18:52:25 <geekosaur> isn't that just another form of zeno's paradox?
18:52:49 <dolio> earendel: No, that's some idealized nonsense people say when talking about fractals.
18:53:07 <dolio> The coastline of England isn't an actual mathematical fractal.
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18:53:57 <EvanR> yeah if you walk around it you get somewhere
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18:53:58 <earendel> its not idealised. it says the more precise you measure the longer it gets.
18:54:07 <monochrom> I like an idealized England. :)
18:54:54 <dolio> Okay, prove that it will always get longer the more precisely you measure.
18:55:27 <geekosaur> it's idealised if only because there are limits both to precision and to fractal expansion in the real world as opposed to the mathematical one
18:55:38 <dolio> Right.
18:56:15 <earendel> which is a fact. it also elegenantly points at limitations as of primary: limits of the machines we use to compute. and time memory it would take too. for infinity it would be a lot. especially at its ends.
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18:58:56 <monochrom> "The closer you look, the less you see."
19:00:31 <earendel> dolio: ok. imagine you put a grid over england. of some arbitrary resolution. now you can draw the coast of england using nodes at the grid-snaps. now: the higer the resolution gets, the more precise you can map the coast on it right? so far so good. now consider this. the shortest distance between two points/nodes is .. a line! now if you add more nodes (higher resolution) the distance between the points can only get longer or stay equally long
19:00:31 <earendel> (with the additional node being exactly on that line)
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19:01:15 <geekosaur> so have you heard of zeno's paradox?
19:01:18 <monochrom> You do not want your precision to exceed the atomic level (say). Because at that point the whole notion of "coast line" dissolves.
19:01:35 <dsal> That describes how I understand things.
19:01:54 <monochrom> But then once you bound your precision, you stop at a finite answer.
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19:02:12 <monochrom> Also technically you no longer have a fractal.
19:02:25 <dsal> My gap of understanding has infinite precision.
19:02:26 <dolio> Eventually they stay equally long, because the real coastline of England isn't actually a fractal.
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19:02:43 <monochrom> But I'm OK with an idealized English notion. We have idealized circles too.
19:03:24 <geekosaur> for that matter, have you heard of banach-tarski?
19:03:24 <earendel> one more on infinity; if the universe is infinite (and so far we can look now it seems to be perfectly flat .. ergo infinite) it was infinite even as the observable universe was the size close to smallest (at big bang)
19:03:53 <dolio> I see no reason to assume the universe is infinite, either.
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19:05:00 <earendel> one more. during the inflation. the universe expanded in a very short time by the same factor it has expanded it expanded since then till today. and! by that time it was the size of an orange.
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19:05:13 <monochrom> The Banach-Tarski paradox says that England can exit Europe twice in a row. (1st was Brexit, 2nd was losing the Euro Cup.) >:)
19:05:22 <EvanR> lol
19:06:59 <EvanR> anyway, countable uncountable is another one of those things that gets fantastic descriptions because it rarely has any practical relevance
19:07:13 <EvanR> so no one gets the opportunity to call bullshit
19:08:28 <dolio> Countability is much more interesting constructively.
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19:09:26 <dolio> Like, you can't show that the extended naturals are countable, so the continuum hyptothesis is obviously false. :þ
19:09:34 <earendel> im no good in maths, but from what i get informatics don't deal with limitations of hardware like egineers do. if something halts, it wouldn't matter if the universe still would exist at that time. it will halt.
19:09:36 <earendel> lol
19:10:04 <earendel> not that engineering has no merits!
19:10:41 <earendel> and from what i get this is where you were pointing at. fuck circles. all is a polygon. xd the holy n-eck
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19:10:49 <dolio> There are probably constructively acceptable axioms that make it uncountable (like 'not countable'), even.
19:11:38 <EvanR> in my mind there is a positive notion of uncountable somehow
19:11:42 <dolio> Some continuity principle.
19:11:48 <boxscape> ski: I think you had some notation in mind for the existential version (if that makes sense) of => at some point? I don't remember what it was, but just wanted to note, there's some discussion about what it should be in https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/473 - at least I think it's the same idea
19:11:59 <monochrom> *>
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19:12:08 <boxscape> ah, right
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19:12:13 <dolio> Oh yeah. Uncountable is actually stronger. Like, for any enumeration, you can produce a value not in the enumeration.
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19:13:12 <boxscape> wait, ski isn't even online. Why is matrix telling me otherwise >:(
19:13:20 <dolio> But, the extended naturals are just not provably countable if you don't add principles, because in classical mathematics they are countable.
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19:14:31 <EvanR> principles are cool
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19:14:44 <EvanR> principals, usually not
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19:24:53 <earendel> princesses are best <3
19:25:11 <earendel> printhesses
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19:48:19 <sm> why does cabal fail on m1 mac with "unrecognized instruction mnemonic" / "you need clang" errors here: https://bpa.st/FJ2Q ?
19:48:39 <sm> `cabal` is an x86 binary
19:49:57 <sclv> i think its a ghc issue where its only able to compile for m1 via llvm?
19:51:22 <sm> thanks, I'll ask them
19:52:42 <geekosaur> if cabal is an x86 binary then it should be trying to build for x86, but the followup error suggests it's trying to build natively
19:53:04 <geekosaur> "you need clang" is one of ghc's typically oh-so-helpful suggestions :)
19:54:09 <geekosaur> I guess this in part because the assembly shown pretty clearly expects ; to be a comment character, which iirc it is on x86
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20:00:47 <sm> indeed.. I believe homebrew's haskell binaries switched to arm binaries semi recently. `brew install cabal-install` got me an arm cabal binary, which fixed it
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20:42:19 <dminuoso> EvanR: By the way, I ended up just closing the file before zip opened it.
20:42:29 <dminuoso> Cant for my life figure out why GHC gives me these file is locked errors here.
20:43:19 <monochrom> Is this on Windows?
20:43:36 <dminuoso> No, this is on Linux
20:43:41 <monochrom> Ah yikes.
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20:49:03 <johnw> anyone else noticed that foldl' f z xs is morally equivalent to execState (mapM_ f xs) z, where f :: a -> State b ()?
20:49:15 <dminuoso> openTempFile "/tmp" "foo.ext" >>= \(path, handle) -> openFile path ReadMode
20:49:20 <dminuoso> This is a quick reproducer
20:49:41 <dminuoso> I suspect there's some strange interaction between the way openTempFile obtains a file handle and the RTS locking code on `openFile`
20:49:49 <johnw> (though I may need a strictified version of State for that to be true)
20:49:55 <dminuoso> It's definitely a bug, just not sure whether its a documentation bug or a behavioral bug
20:51:11 <dolio> That's essentially the same observation as mapAccumL/R being mapM.
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20:52:39 <dolio> Just where the output isn't interesting.
20:53:05 <monochrom> johnw: Yes, it is also how Jeremy Gibbons generalizes APL to all of (Traversable t, Representable t).
20:53:47 <monochrom> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-662-54434-1_21
20:56:14 <dminuoso> let path = "./openfile.bug" in do { openFile path ReadWriteMode; openFile path ReadMode }
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20:56:18 <dminuoso> An even simpler reproducer
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20:56:27 <monochrom> Err, (Applicative t, Traversable t, Representable t)
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20:57:23 <dminuoso> The way I read 41.3.4 File locking, this should be permisseable
20:58:24 <dminuoso> Am I misreading the report?
20:59:39 <dolio> "there may either be many handles on the same file which manage input, or just one handle on the file which manages output"
20:59:51 <dminuoso> That or is meant exclusively, I presume?
20:59:51 <dolio> It sounds like one writer locks the file.
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21:00:19 <dolio> I guess.
21:00:25 <geekosaur> yes
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21:00:38 <geekosaur> I read it the same way dolio does: the or is exclusive
21:00:56 <dolio> I mean, I might not read it that way, but that's clearly what GHC is doing.
21:01:15 <dolio> So, considering the actual behavior, that or is exclusive.
21:01:16 <dminuoso> "If any open or semi-closed handle is managing a file for output, no new handle can be allocated for that file"
21:01:23 <geekosaur> either … or is generally exclusive to me
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21:01:54 <dminuoso> Okay, I think I kept reading it with the expectation to allow simultaneous multiple reader and one writer handle..
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21:04:55 <dolio> That's also kind of a common concurrency pattern. Multiple readers at a time. Single writer at a time, and readers and writers block one another.
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21:07:12 <geekosaur> problem is that behaves oddly with disk files as the writer may change what you just read or even delete it (see ftruncate)
21:07:34 <geekosaur> sockets and pipes are another story
21:08:47 <geekosaur> a reader may even have buffered data that no longer exists
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21:11:33 <dolio> Oh yeah, I guess with "either" in there I'd most likely read it as exclusive anyway.
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21:41:53 <dmj`> encodeStrict in aeson wouldn't be a bad idea
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22:16:25 <BrokenClutch> I know that this will sound dumb, but I developed a strong opinion about most haskell books (that I've read at least).
22:16:25 <BrokenClutch> They are holding hands too much, like "let's make a software together xoxo" (which is fine), I miss a little of cppreference on haskell, like:
22:16:25 <BrokenClutch> 1) Give definition of thing; 2) Give 4 to 6 examples in order from very simple/abstract things to very pratical and complex ones.
22:16:25 <BrokenClutch> Correct me if I'm wrong
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22:18:47 <jackdk> BrokenClutch: I see what you're saying but I found when I was learning that the definitions are often just outside people's zones of proximal development. Also you can sometimes find that sort of stuff in haddocks rather than books.
22:19:12 <dmj`> BrokenClutch: hmm, which books are you referring to? I didn't see any xoxo in LYAH, but I might have overlooked that section ... I'd always go to the typeclassopedia instead of other books, unless its on RTS stuff
22:19:53 <jackdk> I think "xoxo" is referring to things like cute pictures (LYAH), goat jokes (HPFFP), etc.
22:20:35 <jackdk> For typeclasses in particular, I've had the most success with "here is a repeated pattern. here is a typeclass that captures the pattern. here are some operations you can write using only the typeclass. here is how those operations behave for each instance"
22:21:31 <BrokenClutch> jackdk: Me too
22:21:58 <jackdk> just pointing out that it's a an additional step before the cppreference-style stuff you were talking about
22:22:02 <dsal> BrokenClutch: haddock has all the definitions. It's pretty much all I use anymore.
22:22:19 <Rembane> Hoogle is the best.
22:22:42 <BrokenClutch> dmj: The best one was haskell in depth, it have those flaws that I've said but they've written good things about development
22:22:57 <dsal> Yeah, hoogle is great when you know what something looks like but don't know what it's called.
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22:23:09 <BrokenClutch> dsal: Too little information, I'm not saying that's bad. I'm just missing cppreference.
22:23:45 <BrokenClutch> I'm doing a combo of GHCI + hoogle + lambdabot + haskell report
22:24:00 <dsal> @hoogle a -> Maybe b -> Either a b
22:24:01 <lambdabot> Data.Either.Combinators maybeToRight :: b -> Maybe a -> Either b a
22:24:01 <lambdabot> Rebase.Prelude maybeToRight :: () => b -> Maybe a -> Either b a
22:24:01 <lambdabot> Network.Haskoin.Util maybeToEither :: b -> Maybe a -> Either b a
22:25:05 <dsal> I don't miss cppreference. There's a part of learning anything new that is disorienting.
22:25:06 <dmj`> BrokenClutch: Interesting, yea hackage might be best, or just .... raw source, that is probably the best tbh... back in my day we didn't have "books", we had broken haskell wiki links, darcs checkouts, cabal sandbox tarballs, and blue / white hackage pages w/ no source hyperlinks.
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22:28:26 <monochrom> The Haskell 2010 Report has all the definitions, but no examples.
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22:28:47 <monochrom> The blogosphere tutorials have all the examples, but no definition.
22:28:53 <monochrom> Ah, what if you read both.
22:30:12 <BrokenClutch> monochrom: I forgot to say what I'm doing to solve that! I've downloaded a lot of source codes, git-annex source is helping me a lot
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22:30:56 <BrokenClutch> and when the people who write the definition write the examples too, everything becomes better connected
22:31:09 <BrokenClutch> bad comma, sorry
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23:12:49 <jackdk> Axman6/dibblego: did you read that big ol' snippet I posted? I'm thinking of giving up mocking and splitting `MonadAmazonka` into `Monad m => MonadAmazonka m => MonadAmazonkaPager m`, where `MonadAmazonkaPager` provides the `paginate`/`paginateEither` operations; this makes `MonadAmazonka` GND-able
23:14:16 <jackdk> For practical use, people are gonna need `askEnv` and `localEnv`, which essentially locks the class to implementation details of `AmazonkaT` anyway
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23:15:04 <geekosaur> @tell BrokenClutch if you're looking for source code, you can start with xmonad and then move on to xmonad-contrib (most modules within being self-contained)
23:15:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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23:16:23 <dibblego> haven't had a chance sorry mate, will do it
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23:18:35 <jackdk> Everyone wants a new release, nobody wants to pick up a shovel and help dig
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23:19:00 <jackdk> (I know you're not in the amazonkaverse, but it's more of a general vent)
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23:20:53 <geekosaur> isn't that how it usually goes?
23:21:16 <jackdk> I guess
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23:31:16 <zero> > length [0,1,2,undefined,7,8,9]
23:31:18 <lambdabot> 7
23:31:49 <dibblego> just got an exam on Friday, so that's my spare time atm
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23:32:33 <zero> > [0,1,2,undefined,7,8,9] !! 4
23:32:34 <lambdabot> 7
23:32:37 <zero> > [0,1,2,undefined,7,8,9] !! 3
23:32:39 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
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23:34:54 <zero> is this because Cons is the head in WHNF ?
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23:35:10 <zero> (Cons = (:))
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23:35:36 <geekosaur> yes, or put otherwise they only access the spine of the list, not the values
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23:35:52 <zero> all right
23:36:19 <geekosaur> in fact !! doesn't touch the value either, it's MuEval's attempt to print it afterward that throws the exception
23:36:29 <dibblego> > length [[0,1,2,undefined,7,8,9] !! 3]
23:36:31 <lambdabot> 1
23:36:39 <c_wraith> put yet another way: evaluating either argument to (:) doesn't cause any evaluation of the other.
23:36:56 <EvanR> > [0, 1, 2, let x = x in x, 3, 4] !! 4
23:36:58 <lambdabot> 3
23:37:35 <EvanR> now we know it's not being touched, as opposed to hiding an exception
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23:38:43 <EvanR> haskell is such a safe language, just by touching values you may explode, freeze
23:39:54 <zero> nice
23:40:53 <zero> that reminded me of a beautiful poem by Robert Frost
23:40:53 <jackdk> dibblego: I am happy with how I've decided to do things (single typeclass with a haddock note for people writing their own instances), so if you don't get to weigh in, that's cool
23:41:05 <dibblego> ok
23:41:11 <xsperry> is it really better if the freezing happens right away, before the values are even created?
23:41:19 <xsperry> as it would in a strict language
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23:41:58 <xsperry> the end result is still a crashing of freezing program
23:42:05 <zero> xsperry: if you think it is in a specific context, you can force its evaluatioon
23:42:18 <xsperry> s/of/or
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23:42:47 <xsperry> zero, I know, I'm just arguing that this wouldn't make it any better or safer, whether done manually or automatically
23:43:01 <EvanR> the beauty is when your program doesn't freeze or crash and produces useful results despite bombs and bottoms
23:43:24 <EvanR> unlike a strict language
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23:47:02 <int-e> c_wraith: more adventures in dumbo octopus land: there are *long* loops: https://paste.debian.net/1223336/
23:47:04 <mdrake> hi. is it ok to upgrade to 9.2.1 if I only care about linux and windows platforms?
23:47:25 <mdrake> or is it still too buggy to make the switch
23:47:27 <zero> also there's the fact that you can have considerable guarantees that bombs and botoms don't exist
23:47:33 <c_wraith> as far as I know, the big issues are only on ARM, yes
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23:48:14 <c_wraith> int-e: dang. that's one hell of a long cycle
23:48:38 <mdrake> when can we expect stack to upgrade to 9.2.1?
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23:49:02 <monochrom> Laziness enables more abstractions.
23:49:18 <c_wraith> I doubt it will. I suspect stack won't upgrade until 9.2.2
23:49:33 <mdrake> :|
23:49:47 <c_wraith> because they don't want a stack release labeled "not for use on new MacBooks"
23:49:53 <zero> monochrom: i intuitively agree, but may i ask how so?
23:50:28 <mdrake> and how far away is 9.2.2, months? half a year?
23:50:32 <mdrake> +away
23:50:54 <c_wraith> probably not this month, due to the holidays. but I'd hope for January
23:51:01 <mdrake> that's not so bad
23:51:03 <monochrom> "f x y z = if x>0 then y else z, don't eval z if x>0, don't eval y if x<=0" cannot be user-defined in an eager language.
23:52:02 <monochrom> This explains why a lot of control constructs are merely library functions in Haskell, but have to be at the mercy of the language designers in other languages.
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23:52:44 <jackdk> IIRC there's a mean question in SICP about this exact point
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23:54:08 <dibblego> Has anyone ever asked for a strict if/then/else or && [for whatever reason, for whatever language]?
23:54:42 <EvanR> your cpu evaluates both sides and cancels the loser when the bool test is ready xD
23:54:51 <EvanR> luckily they can't explode (?)
23:54:55 <hpc> dibblego: i think people are more likely to ask for "i don't want to care if it is strict or lazy"
23:55:06 <monochrom> "cancel explosion"
23:55:21 <geekosaur> > zip "abcdefg" [1..] -- try this in a strict language
23:55:23 <lambdabot> [('a',1),('b',2),('c',3),('d',4),('e',5),('f',6),('g',7)]
23:55:26 <mdrake> strict if isn't even an if, is it? just two blocks of code executed/evaluated
23:55:49 <geekosaur> for that matter
23:55:53 <geekosaur> > [1..]
23:55:54 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
23:56:05 <dibblego> ...with a value
23:56:49 <mdrake> I think this is a nicely written article about all the benefits of laziness. http://augustss.blogspot.com/2011/05/more-points-for-lazy-evaluation-in.html
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23:59:13 <monochrom> John Hughes's "why FP matters" is also halfly "why laziness matters". Its many examples assume lazy lists.

All times are in UTC on 2021-12-13.