Logs on 2021-12-18 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:44:34	<lechner>	Hi, when parsing JSON with optional fields, am I better off using Maybe or should I create separate types? Thanks!
01:45:33	<hpc>	depends on what you want to express
01:45:43	<hpc>	maybe when a field is missing it just means to use some default value
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02:38:41	<dsal>	You can have other default values than Nothing as well.
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04:09:06	<glguy>	I imagine things just aren't there yet, but I wanted to check that this is what's expected and not just that my installation is messed up. I tried using ghc on arm mac and couldn't install ghcid, doctest fell over on a file that used UTF-8, and hls only reported supporting up to 8.10
04:09:13	<glguy>	anyone had more luck with arm mac ghc?
04:10:54	<xerox>	I don't have arm specific problems nowadays anymore
04:11:33	<glguy>	Are you able to install ghcid on it, then?
04:12:04	<xerox>	there is one of its dependencies that is lagging behind because the maintainer is not to be found
04:12:27	<xerox>	so I had to build it manually with a vendored version, with the small fix
04:13:02	<glguy>	HLS?
04:13:15	<xerox>	HLS I don't use sorry
04:13:46	<glguy>	I lean more on ghcid than HLS, so if that one's fixable I might be ok
04:14:02	<glguy>	gotta figure out which computer I can use for AoC this weekend :)
04:14:45	<xerox>	I ended up compiling master a month ago with the calling convention fix for ioctl to have ghci work, sticking with that for now :D
04:15:05	<xerox>	there it is: https://github.com/biegunka/terminal-size/pull/16
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04:19:26	<glguy>	Which ghc version does that work with?
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04:19:58	<xerox>	mine reports 9.3.20211020
04:20:30	<xerox>	ah but did I compile it with this, or with another... maybe I can figure that out
04:20:49	<xerox>	I compiled it with ghc-8.10.7 from ghcup
04:20:49	<glguy>	9.0.1 and 9.2.1 generate different errors each for me :)
04:21:19	<glguy>	OK, 8.10.7 is working better, thanks
04:21:26	<xerox>	excellent
04:22:18	<glguy>	Are you using 9.3 because 9.2.1 is broken in an interesting way or just because 9.3 is newer?
04:23:05	<xerox>	it was the first branch that I was able to compile successfully, with the ioctl fix, so I just stuck with it, I had some problems compiling the release branch/tags that I can't remember right now
04:23:32	<glguy>	What's the ioctl fix?
04:23:35	<xerox>	so I guess the former, the situation might have changed tho
04:23:58	<glguy>	I see that this PR mentions ioctl, but is that also related to picking a GHC in general?
04:24:10	<xerox>	ghci had broken line editing, because a ioctl inside ghc was done incompatibly just like the terminal-size issue above
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04:28:26	<xerox>	it was libraries/haskeline/System/Console/Haskeline/Backend/Posix.hsc 66:foreign import capi "sys/ioctl.h ioctl" ioctl
04:28:40	<xerox>	so any ghc with this fix ("capi") will not have broken ghci line editing
04:29:06	<xerox>	there is also a workaround for it if you can't get such a ghc, if I can find it again...
04:30:44	<xerox>	here https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/20079#note_364118
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04:33:24	<xerox>	https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20210709-capi-usage.html
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04:38:25	<dsal>	glguy: I've been running an M1 for a while. nix+stack. It's a bit of a balancing act, but mostly works.
04:38:41	<dsal>	My mac's in the shop right now, though. Wife dropped a spoon on the screen which is apparently enough to completely disable it.
04:41:45	<hololeap>	spwned
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04:44:56	<dsal>	haha. :(
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04:48:20	<hololeap>	:(
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04:50:25	<EvanR>	There Is No Spoon myth busted
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04:52:07	<sm>	woah. Noted, keep spouse and cutlery away from mac
04:52:31	<int-e>	@pl \((a,b),(c,d)) -> ((a,c),(b,d))
04:52:32	<lambdabot>	uncurry (uncurry (flip flip snd . (ap .) . flip flip fst . ((.) .) . (. (,)) . flip . (((.) . (,)) .) . (,)))
04:53:07	<dsal>	I was sitting by the fire. She was standing over making (me) a drink. Spoon fell and hit just the edge of my screen. Doesn't take much to make expensive worthless. Only $99 to get it fixed. But also a lot of time.
04:54:06	<monochrom>	You are trying to ship your spouse, a spoon, and an M1 Mac across the river. The boat can only hold two passengers...
04:55:28	<int-e>	Can I throw the spoon all the way across?
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04:59:36	<monochrom>	Not if the M1 Mac is also on the other side, bearing the risk of getting hit by the spoon.
05:03:43	<hololeap>	lol
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05:08:58	<hololeap>	if I have (a -> Logic b) and [a], and I want to search each problem space enumerated by [a], is asum from Data.Foldable what I need?
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05:09:20	<hololeap>	assuming I want a depth-first search
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05:12:37	<hololeap>	e.g. (\f xs -> asum (f <$> xs)) :: (a -> Logic b) -> [a] -> Logic b
05:14:51	<hololeap>	I suppose that only makes sense if I'm looking for a single result, otherwise it shouldn't stop on the first successful branch, but keep gathering results instead
05:15:39	<hololeap>	then again a depth-first search implies a single result
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05:39:08	<hololeap>	>>> observeAll ((pure 'a' `interleave` pure 'b' `interleave` pure 'c') `interleave` (pure 'd' `interleave` pure 'e') `interleave` pure 'f')
05:39:15	<hololeap>	"afdceb"
05:39:42	<hololeap>	so it starts with the front, then goes to the back and works to the left?
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05:55:10	<hololeap>	>>> observeAll $ foldl interleave mzero (pure <$> "abcdefg")
05:55:11	<hololeap>	"agfedcb"
05:55:14	<hololeap>	seems like it
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06:23:41	<hololeap>	if you use foldr instead, it comes out as "abcdefg" ... weird
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06:47:22	int-e	sighs
06:47:29	<int-e>	...reading is so hard...
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07:00:21	<EvanR>	i/o sync errors causing my linux to freeze and crash in the middle of my almost getting tonights answer did not help
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07:26:18	<Sobhan>	Hi
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07:29:00	<Sobhan>	i'm trying to short circuit a calculation in ST monad (STUArray), i want my function to run until it hits a certain condition, right now i use https://dpaste.com/E6CRB8LKR the trace shows that it reaches the solution but it doesn't stop. it's like it's stop in a 1 : goto 1 type of loop (no allocations)
07:29:24	<Sobhan>	(yes it's for advent of code)
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07:29:49	<Sobhan>	also `it :: STUArray s (Int, Int) Int -> ST s Int`
07:30:21	<dsal>	Sobhan: It's not clear why you think that should stop.
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07:31:00	<Sobhan>	i think i'm not getting the state monad but in the state less version that would short circuit
07:31:09	<Sobhan>	dsal
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07:31:48	<Sobhan>	i'm clearly not "getting" the ST monad
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07:32:20	<Sobhan>	`dd _ _ b a = return b` doesn't short as i had hopped it would
07:32:23	<dsal>	It's not the ST, it's the fold over an infinite list.
07:32:32	<dsal>	`return` is a confusing term.
07:32:37	<dsal>	I'd just never use it.
07:32:46	<Sobhan>	but fold can short, right?
07:33:17	<dsal>	foldr can in lists if it doesn't use the accumulator.
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07:34:06	<EvanR>	foldl can't short circuit, foldlM even less likely
07:34:34	<Sobhan>	huh, what would be a good way to short then?
07:34:44	<EvanR>	in this case, it can't run the ST action until it knows what you want to do with every element
07:35:24	<Sobhan>	that makes sense
07:36:02	<Sobhan>	i think i got it. i have to move the ST inside my iteration
07:36:13	<EvanR>	there's takeWhileM ...
07:36:45	<Sobhan>	would that work with ST?
07:36:52	<EvanR>	:t takeWhileM
07:36:53	<lambdabot>	error:
07:36:53	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: takeWhileM
07:36:53	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant one of these:
07:37:08	<Sobhan>	the one from monad-loops Control.Monad.Loops
07:37:10	<Sobhan>	right?
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07:38:12	<EvanR>	to short circuit to a solution before delving into anything else, I'd probably start with a explicit recursive ST action
07:38:31	<EvanR>	so you decide to recurse or quit at any step
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07:43:03	<Square>	This may be stupid question. But are both Data.ByteString and Data.Text needed? Add a Lazy variant to both. Do both fill meaningful purposes? I find one often tries to adopt strings between packages. Oh, then we have String too.
07:43:15	<dsal>	They don't do the same thing.
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07:43:43	<EvanR>	bytestring is pretty straight forward, it's packed vectors of Word8
07:44:10	<EvanR>	unlike String and Text which deal with unicode
07:44:24	<Square>	Gotcha.
07:44:45	<EvanR>	many languages get things mixed up
07:45:12	<EvanR>	like, presume a string encoding, ... or supposedly did then change their mind and add encodings
07:45:52	<Square>	Ok, that makes sense.
07:45:58	<EvanR>	in the end string and array of word8 should be separate
07:47:14	<Square>	Thanks for the leason, i never took the time to really understand their differences. Hard to get hyped over strings. =D
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07:49:35	<EvanR>	picking the right types is bread and butter in haskell... and then turns out that's necessary in every language
07:50:01	<EvanR>	you just don't always get any help with it lol
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08:15:14	<Sobhan>	how can i have a function that returns both an STArray and a value that it depends on Array. i can't figure out how to use runST and run STUArray at the same time (either on a ST s (a, b) or (ST s a, STUArray ...))
08:16:25	<Sobhan>	type A s a = STUArray s (Int, Int) a
08:16:25	<Sobhan>	it__ :: UArray (Int, Int) Int -> (Int, A s Int)
08:16:26	<Sobhan>	it__ a1 = bimap runST runSTUArray $ do {arr <- (thaw a1 :: ST s (A s Int)); i <- readArray arr (1, 1); (i, arr)}
08:16:29	<Sobhan>	so like something like this
08:21:03	<EvanR>	I'm guessing you have to use runST and do what runSTUArray does yourself in the process of returning
08:21:31	<EvanR>	i.e. unsafeFreeze
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08:24:18	<Sobhan>	i did actually try that but i get `• Couldn't match type ‘a1’ with ‘(Int, A s Int)’
08:24:19	<Sobhan>	because type variable ‘s’ would escape its scope`
08:25:04	<Sobhan>	it__ a1 = runST $ do {arr <- (thaw a1 :: ST s (A s Int)); i <- readArray arr (1, 1); return (i, arr)}
08:25:28	<EvanR>	thaw?
08:25:43	<Sobhan>	thaw :: forall i (a :: * -> * -> ) e (b :: -> * -> ) (m :: -> *). (Ix i, IArray a e, MArray b e m) => a i e -> m (b i e)
08:25:50	<Sobhan>	ugh
08:25:56	<Sobhan>	it converts an UArray to a STUArray
08:25:58	<EvanR>	I must be thinking backwards what you want
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08:26:45	<EvanR>	in ST the mutable arrays you use are supposed to contained within that ST action
08:27:33	<EvanR>	I thought you wanted to return one frozen... instead it seems like you want to get a mutable array from elsewhere?
08:27:57	<Sobhan>	i want the 1,1 index (or something like that & the array (frozen)
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08:28:14	<Sobhan>	i'm returning the number of operations on the array
08:28:18	<Sobhan>	plus the new array
08:28:24	<EvanR>	I... don't see the point of ST here
08:28:55	<EvanR>	you're messing with outside arrays within ST, and that's it
08:30:03	<Sobhan>	this is sample code, i want to take a an IArray, modify it and report the number of edits and the results. i kinda need an implementation of a MArray. i was thinking of not using IO
08:30:10	<Sobhan>	so i ended up with ST
08:30:17	<EvanR>	make a new array, operating on it, maybe read some immutable outside data, return the new array, that would make sense
08:30:48	<Sobhan>	well i'm doing operations on it, just not in the sample code
08:31:43	<Sobhan>	i have to choose between Data.Array.IO, Data.Array.ST, and Data.Array.Storable.
08:31:45	<Sobhan>	right?
08:32:02	<EvanR>	I mainly use Data.Vector
08:32:08	<Sobhan>	assuming i NEED mutable arrays
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08:33:07	<Sobhan>	i need 2d arrays
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08:35:53	<EvanR>	yeah I also use vector for that xD
08:37:26	<dsal>	a 2D array is just a 1D array with Ix.
08:37:38	<dsal>	You can have arbitrary dimensions where some aren't even numerical if you want.
08:37:52	<dsal>	(that's all you're doing with Arrays)
08:38:58	<EvanR>	my other array uses real number indexes
08:40:08	<dsal>	Numbers aren't real.
08:40:20	<Sobhan>	but i'll be back to using ST, right?
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08:40:26	<Sobhan>	modify :: (forall s. MVector s a -> ST s ()) -> Vector a -> Vector a
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08:41:10	<Sobhan>	i'll still be at point zero until i figure out how to return multiple things from ST
08:41:21	<Sobhan>	oops, sorry for the ping
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08:42:07	<EvanR>	I'm just not sure what you're gaining from ST here
08:42:16	<Sobhan>	over IO?
08:42:34	<Sobhan>	i want to put my function in a pure context
08:42:46	<dsal>	Do you have something working that's not mutalbe?
08:43:09	<Sobhan>	?
08:43:19	<int-e>	Sobhan: you have to manually freeze arrays if you want to return more than one
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08:44:00	<int-e>	@src runSTArray
08:44:00	<lambdabot>	Source not found. :(
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08:44:09	<int-e>	pity... runSTArray st = runST (st >>= unsafeFreezeSTArray)
08:44:27	<EvanR>	yes... like I said xD
08:44:38	<int-e>	I don't know how that works for vectors, do they have a freeze operation as well?
08:44:42	<EvanR>	you'll need to freeze, you only have a thaw there
08:44:51	<EvanR>	yeah they have freeze and thaw too
08:45:18	<int-e>	(I have used `vector` a little, but apparently never with explicit ST.)
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08:48:46	<EvanR>	actually embedding an array mutating program within a pure function with ST is really cool, I just never ran into a case where it would be worth it
08:48:57	<Sobhan>	int-e thanks, i finally figured it out `it__ :: UArray (Int, Int) Int -> (Int, UArray (Int, Int) Int)
08:48:58	<Sobhan>	it__ a1 = runST $ do {arr <- (thaw a1 :: ST s (STUArray s (Int, Int) Int)); i <- readArray arr (1, 1); farr <- freeze arr; return (i, farr)}`
08:51:02	<int-e>	Sobhan: yep. (you /can/ use unsafeFreeze there and avoid a copy; the promise you're making is that you don't touch the array afterwards)
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08:51:35	<Sobhan>	i don't think i can keep a promise XD
08:51:56	<int-e>	Sobhan: Oh, sorry. "afterwards" is scoped by the ST action
08:52:06	<EvanR>	since you're returning from the ST action... I don't see how you could touch it after
08:52:10	<Sobhan>	i got that...
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08:52:35	<Sobhan>	by forgetting what unsafeFreeze tomorrow morning...
08:53:11	<EvanR>	don't touch it between freeze and returning?
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08:53:25	<EvanR>	unsafeFreeze
08:54:35	<Sobhan>	it was a joke...
08:54:43	<int-e>	Sobhan: I mainly bring it up because unlike most `unsafe` functions, the promise here is completely local in scope, so it's a pretty sane optimization.
08:55:39	<Sobhan>	i'm guessing that the unsafe thawt isn't going to work tho
08:55:42	<int-e>	(In contrast, `unsafeThaw` requires you to keep the constraint in mind for the rest of the program.)
08:57:06	<int-e>	(The constraint being that the immutable array you're thawing is not used elsewhere.)
09:00:21	<nshepperd2>	Sobhan: fun fact, vector actually has a function for doing that sort of thing that I added!
09:01:14	<nshepperd2>	V.createT (do mut <- V.thaw xs; a <- M.read mut 0; return (a, mut))
09:02:17	<nshepperd2>	(createT does 'traverse unsafeFreeze' over any traversable container of mutable vectors that you return)
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09:17:20	<c_wraith>	oh, only traversables? And here I was thinking you were playing fancy tricks with Data
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10:49:36	<nshepperd>	hehe no
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11:58:10	<Digit>	hi. nyxt has me inspired to ask along the lines of... what's "the" web browser written/configured in haskell?
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12:43:18	<sm>	I can't think of one offhand. that's a colossal project
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12:46:26	<geekosaur>	manatee had a web browser component, but it's long dead
12:46:27	<sm>	a few experiments on hackage, like hbro
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13:14:50	<opqdonut>	what's the cool way to write `f <$> x <*> pure y` ?
13:15:12	<opqdonut>	there must be some <**$ operator somewhere I can use
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14:04:31	<_73>	does this combinator have a name? `foo f g = \x y -> f (g x) (g y)`
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14:08:45	<yushyin>	on?
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14:11:35	<_73>	yushyin: yes `on` appears the same thanks. It would be helpful to me if somebody knew a mathematical name for this function.
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14:16:21	<Rembane>	_73: It's called the psi combinator according to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-aviary-0.4.0/docs/Data-Aviary-Birds.html but I can't find any more sources than that.
14:16:57	<_73>	awesome. Thanks
14:17:52	<Rembane>	No worries. :)
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14:35:35	<yushyin>	it's the first time i heard of psi or 'combinator birds'. Why birds? Seems like a reference to a book. 'In his delightful book To mock a mockingbird, Smullyan (1985) chooses birds for his combinators, in memory of Haskell Curry, an early pioneer in the theory of combinators (1958) and an avid bird-watcher.'
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14:41:55	<juhp>	This has been bothering me quite a while - maybe a good one for r/haskell monthly AMA, but isn't there a nice function to say "filter a list by a list of prefixes" for example? Well I dare say it is probably in some package, but I wish a not too obscure one
14:42:20	<juhp>	I mean a generic function of course
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15:07:11	<juhp>	Maybe it is too easy to define case-by-case...
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15:16:48	<_73>	I actually have a copy of "To Mock a Mockingbird" that was gifted to me and I never got around to reading. I didn't realize that it was about combinatory logic.
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16:32:10	<CyberTailor>	i have too little RAM to compile haskell packages, what to do?
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16:42:54	<pragma->	download more
16:44:28	<geekosaur>	generally you add swap somehow. of course that'll be slow.
16:46:07	<geekosaur>	if this is something like a vps or droplet, you build on another machine and copy the artifacts over. if it's something like an rpi and you can't easily add swap, you may have to look into an arm vps
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16:52:46	<sm>	how much too little ?
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16:59:44	<CyberTailor>	sm: 4GB and zram
17:00:08	<geekosaur>	ow
17:00:39	<geekosaur>	might suggest using qemu on an x86 box for builds
17:00:57	<geekosaur>	it'll be slow, but not as slow as swapping on 4gb
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17:01:06	<sm>	I don't know ram, but many (most ?) packages can build in 4G, some tweaks to your command can help
17:01:26	<sm>	@where lowmem
17:01:26	<lambdabot>	stack build ONEPKG -j1 --ghc-options='+RTS -M1G -RTS'
17:02:04	<sm>	@where lowmemcabal
17:02:04	<lambdabot>	I know nothing about lowmemcabal.
17:02:55	<sm>	but you're probably building pandoc or something
17:02:58	<monochrom>	cabal's is still -j1 and --ghc-options
17:03:10	<sm>	+1
17:03:58	<sm>	@where+ lowmem cabal/stack build ONEPKG -j1 --ghc-options='+RTS -M2G -RTS'
17:03:58	<lambdabot>	Done.
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17:05:04	<CyberTailor>	gentoo builds with +RTS -A256M -qb0 -RTS
17:05:06	<monochrom>	GHC these days autotune its allocator based on physical RAM size. It may be unnecessary to dictate that ghc-options.
17:05:41	<sm>	interesting.. well, worth testing CyberTailor
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17:06:24	<c_wraith>	most build memory problems come from either the linker or packages like vector-algorithms that do recursive inlining up to some ridiculous depth such that they generate huge amounts of code.
17:08:36	<c_wraith>	it can help to know what situation you're in
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17:10:52	<sm>	poor, grim, or dire ?
17:11:15	<CyberTailor>	building e.g. shellcheck or gentoo's hackport
17:12:16	<sm>	is the above command helping ?
17:15:17	<CyberTailor>	i'm just going to put off haskell until i get more ram
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17:22:01	<hololeap>	this is an example of a what gentoo outputs when configuring. I know that things were optimized at one point to favor speed over RAM economy: http://sprunge.us/oXtTK7
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17:24:23	<sm>	aww... too sensible :)
17:26:52	<hololeap>	does anyone spot any options that are obviously memory-hungry in that?
17:28:27	<hololeap>	or know of changes that would allow us to have a low-memory profile for building?
17:28:41	<monochrom>	-j4
17:29:15	<hololeap>	sure, they tried with -j1 I'm pretty sure
17:30:24	<monochrom>	I guess I don't understand your question.
17:31:45	<hololeap>	there are a bunch of other options that I'm not familiar with, such as --ghc-option=-optl-Wl,-O1, and I'm wondering if any (besides -j4) stand out as culprits for increasing RAM consumption during compilation
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17:39:57	<delYsid>	I think I need ExistentialQuantification, but the concept is totally new to me.
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17:41:07	<delYsid>	I get that it would be better to expand every possible operation to a record and keep that in a list, but I think I can not do that since I want the body of my datatype to be extensible, if that wording makes any sense.
17:42:59	<delYsid>	I am trying to create programmable views in a brick app using dyre. The idea is to have a generic View type which the user can create which holds data and functions which specify how to draw and handle events.
17:44:06	<delYsid>	Are there any other patterns then ExistentialQuantification to do this, or should I happily proceed with Typeable and cast?
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17:46:47	<hololeap>	delYsid: you only need ExistentialQuantification if you are trying to "hide" some aspect of the type
17:48:01	<hololeap>	for instance, if you had the type (Thing t) and constructors for (Thing String) and (Thing Bool), you would not be able to stick both of those in [Thing t], because lists are homogeneous
17:49:08	<hololeap>	so you could use ExistentialQuantification to make a SomeThing type which hides `t', allowing you to stick it into containers, but you lose the type-level information of what `t' was
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18:03:01	<delYsid>	hololeap: Thats pretty much it. I dont want to hide anything in particular, but I need a way to add an aribtrary number of custom types of a container. I am hoping to be able to recover t with a Typeable constraint and cast?
18:03:17	<delYsid>	s/of/to/
18:05:12	<hololeap>	I don't think that's necessary. you can shove as much info as you want into the `s' variable for brick's App
18:05:20	<monochrom>	"Hiding" is true, but is true of all parametric polymorphism. If I code up "f :: forall a. a -> a" and you are the user of f, you are hiding the actual type from me, too. Changing "forall" to "exist" just turns the table around.
18:06:14	<monochrom>	Instead, "forall" is a product type that is an infinite product, "exists" is a sum type that is an infinite sum.
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18:06:58	<monochrom>	That infinitness is also the driving force of why some people say "open".
18:09:40	<hololeap>	Q: where did you put my keys? A: There exists a location in the universe where your keys are present -- sounds a bit like "hiding" to me ;)
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18:13:13	<hololeap>	delYsid: you might want to model a widget off of brick's App, where the user just needs to give you (s -> [Widget n]) and (s -> Event n e -> EventM n (Next s)) functions in order to have a View
18:13:40	<hololeap>	_how_ they implement the functions is their business and outside the scope of your library
18:15:49	<monochrom>	Observe that: 1. It uses "forall". 2. It is saying that now the user can hide their s from you. Which is what I said.
18:16:25	<monochrom>	Generally and formally, "(exists s. ...) -> t" is equivalent to "forall s. ... -> t".
18:16:31	<delYsid>	hololeap: Yes. Maybe I am stuck in some sort of confusion, but what I want to achieve is the ability to add an aribtrary amount of these to the brick state. I want some sort of function addView :: View -> State -> State -- which adds the given view (with its own state) to the global brick state.
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18:21:27	<monochrom>	If you find that View is conceptually an open sum type, you can define it to be an existential type, as said.
18:22:41	<delYsid>	ah, that sounds about right then
18:23:53	<monochrom>	A finite and closed sum type is for example "data F = C1 Int \| C2 Bool \| C3 Char". If you receive x::F, you say "I know, it can only be Int, Bool, or Char".
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18:25:29	<monochrom>	An infinite and open sum type is for example "data O = forall s. O s (s -> String)". If you receive x::O, it may be any type, you don't know which, but you know it supports an "s -> String" operations.
18:25:29	<EvanR>	you may be able to do it if you can find a uniform interface to your view
18:25:36	<EvanR>	without fancy types
18:26:07	<monochrom>	Note that "O -> Foo" is the same as "forall s. (s, s->String) -> Foo".
18:26:53	<monochrom>	In a language without built-in existential typing, you use that encoding.
18:27:27	<hololeap>	ok, but if we're getting into theory here, what about the yoneda lemma, where a ~ (a -> r) -> r is saying "if you can give me an `r' from your huge open sum type `a', I really don't care what `a' is. just give me the `r'" -- doesn't this also provide a mechanism for dealing with open sum types without getting into ExistentialQuantification?
18:28:42	<monochrom>	But so is F. "F -> Foo" is the same as "(Int -> Foo, Bool -> Foo, Char -> Foo)" --- a finite "forall".
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18:29:28	<EvanR>	delYsid, does the ultimate use of your dynamic view end up being something like a map reduce
18:29:50	<EvanR>	and foldmap... like map all your weird values to a uniform value and mush them together
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18:30:24	<monochrom>	You are missing a "forall" there. a ~ forall r. (a -> r) -> r
18:30:42	<monochrom>	In category theory terms, "natural in r".
18:30:52	<EvanR>	is that version of yoneda lemma at all related to scott encoding (or what's it called encoding) of data types
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18:31:00	<monochrom>	Naturality in category theory becomes parametricity in programming.
18:31:43	<monochrom>	There is also an outer "forall a." over the whole thing. The Yoneda correspondence is natural in a, too.
18:32:09	<monochrom>	THIS IS WHY HASKELL SHOULD HAVE MADE YOU WRITE "forall" EXPLICITLY.
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18:32:36	<EvanR>	that would get annoying
18:32:51	<hololeap>	I don't know enough about the theory to actually use it to make a point :) but my point is that the user can just give you back a [Widget] and you don't need to know all the steps they took (or types they used) to do so
18:32:54	<EvanR>	category theory is full of omitted important stuff like that
18:33:03	<EvanR>	the student is just supposed to know it's there
18:33:16	<EvanR>	it's even worse in physics
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18:34:10	<EvanR>	yes, what hololeap said
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18:34:29	<delYsid>	Well, the draw part of the view is simple, since it is pure. I have that worked out. But event handling is different, since it can mutate state, and I need a way for the view to know where its data is located in the big state.
18:34:50	<EvanR>	[BigData -> Widget]
18:35:26	<monochrom>	We can talk non-theory. I started without theory, I didn't bring up Yoneda. I started with basic Haskell code.
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18:35:55	<monochrom>	You can work with my O->Foo example to see what I mean. No Yoda required.
18:36:25	<EvanR>	Yoda Nelemma
18:37:01	<monochrom>	And you can see that it is the same technique you described. I was connecting forall with exist.
18:37:36	<monochrom>	My hidden agenda is, though, to de-FUD existential types.
18:38:27	<monochrom>	Existential types are not an anti-pattern.
18:38:46	<EvanR>	existential types hide stuff... simply applying a function hides stuff xD
18:38:51	<EvanR>	what's the problem
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18:39:41	<monochrom>	Well yeah that's another of my point, too. Existential types do not have a monopoly on hiding.
18:40:14	<monochrom>	In fact to the point that the hiding should be attributed to something else unrelated.
18:41:14	<monochrom>	In Java, you have instanceOf, you have a whole java.reflection machinery. They break parametricity in a very strong way. They also break all the fabled "hiding" promised by OOP.
18:41:43	<monochrom>	The conclusion is that hiding should be attributed to parametricity.
18:42:34	<hololeap>	delYsid: here's my thinking: you can write: (local -> BrickEvent n e -> EventM n (Next local)) -> ((s,local) -> BrickEvent n e -> EventM n (Next (s,local)))
18:42:43	<monochrom>	Just that the OOP people boast "hiding" more often, and they use existential types more often, so you get a distorted impression.
18:42:49	<earendel>	i think you misunderstand it as a kind of security feature.
18:43:22	<monochrom>	Uh no. Look at academic explanations of "parametricity" and "type case".
18:43:25	<earendel>	in case you mean private and internal types.
18:43:47	<hololeap>	delYsid: this will allow you to take a state function that focuses on your local View state and apply it to your appHandleEvent from Brick.Main
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18:43:57	<delYsid>	I think my problem boils down to a this "pointer". If I were to write this in C++, I would have base class, some virtual methods, and hide all the private state in the various view subclasses. To add a view, I'd push it to a vector of base pointers. If I call my virtual handle event method, I get a this pointer and can mutate my state. I am looking for something that lets me do this with Brick, where the State is actually a global
18:43:58	<delYsid>	big nested record, and I have to figure out where my private state lives.
18:44:06	<monochrom>	In particular "type case implies losing parametricity"
18:44:50	<EvanR>	delYsid, you can do exactly this by passing a this pointer as an argument
18:45:03	<EvanR>	and using IO or STM to use it
18:45:11	<monochrom>	Haskell is not very good at subclassing though, even after you use existential types.
18:45:38	<monochrom>	But a virtual class (ignoring subclassing), that we can do.
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18:47:26	<EvanR>	virtual class = record of functions? xD
18:47:31	<monochrom>	Yeah!
18:47:40	<EvanR>	cute
18:48:16	<monochrom>	Or even better, record of a few value fields and a few function fields that use those value fields.
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18:48:41	<monochrom>	For example, "data O = forall s. O s (s -> String)" as said.
18:49:19	<EvanR>	that screams "String" to me
18:49:33	<monochrom>	Or you can recgonize that "s -> String looks like a Show method" so you compress it to "data O' = forall s. Show s => O' s"
18:51:33	<monochrom>	It is a basic but dumb and useless example.
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18:51:48	<monochrom>	As usual, all useful OOP examples take up at least 10 lines.
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18:53:11	<delYsid>	EvanR: I have never worked with pointers in Haskell. I was hoping I could get what I want with Lens, but I am sort of stuck here.
18:53:23	<monochrom>	delYsid: There is a chance "pointer" translates to "lens"...
18:53:25	<EvanR>	not called a pointer, it's IORef or TVar
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18:53:50	<geekosaur>	well, one could claim you work with nothing but pointers
18:54:24	<monochrom>	But yeah maybe IORef or TVar is more idiomatic.
18:54:40	<monochrom>	Unless you don't want IO or STM.
18:55:41	<EvanR>	accessing (potentially modifying?) that external "big" "state" ?
18:56:10	<EvanR>	from your OOP subcomponents?
18:56:22	<monochrom>	But if it is strictly a pure function View -> State -> State, different values of View address different slices of State, and there are too many possibilities to write a finite sum type for View...
18:56:28	<EvanR>	seems awkward to do it entirely pure
18:56:33	<monochrom>	then that's straight to the definition of "lens".
18:56:50	<delYsid>	EvanR: Yes. Its a bit like having two states. The private state of the view which lives somewhere in a NonEmpty in the global state. The handler should be able to modify both.
18:57:30	<EvanR>	if you figure out how to do that without IO, you still have the original problem of unmanagable spooky action at a distance
18:57:38	<EvanR>	that happens immediately with lots of globals
18:58:31	<EvanR>	in my current code, I don't have global state and restrict access to what's relevant
18:58:44	<delYsid>	But without access to the global state, the handler is pretty limited in reusing any (global) functionality...
18:59:45	<delYsid>	imagine a clipboard. How would a view copy stuff to it?
19:00:07	<EvanR>	sounds like a single TVar, the clipboard
19:00:30	<EvanR>	and whatever can use it, has it
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19:01:01	<EvanR>	(also, a "view" that modifies the clipboard? xD)
19:01:02	<delYsid>	hmm, thats something to think about.
19:01:19	<EvanR>	not your dads MVC pattern
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19:01:31	<delYsid>	nah
19:01:56	<delYsid>	Lets call it DisplayableObject then :-)
19:02:08	<EvanR>	it can do anything as well as display
19:02:20	<EvanR>	redundant? xD
19:02:48	<monochrom>	"Object" is redundant :)
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19:07:05	<delYsid>	OK, I get the message, I think. Dont open everything up because that makes code unpredictable. So a displayable should only have access to its own state. And if it needs to do stuff to the global state, make these operations explicit as fields and feed them at creation time.
19:08:05	<EvanR>	something like that is a classic OOP strategy, though the background assumes everything in IO
19:09:10	<delYsid>	Its not even that I am after OOP. I dont have any sort of inheritance or anything like that. All I want is a polymorhpic container of things with private state!
19:09:25	<EvanR>	bah inheritance
19:09:56	<EvanR>	haskell has other ways to reuse code
19:10:32	<delYsid>	inheritance is not relevant anyway. polymorphism is.
19:11:05	<EvanR>	the "polymorphic container of things" with private state has an issue in haskell because it doesn't describe what the things or the container are supposed to be able to do
19:11:29	<EvanR>	even implementing it as [IO ()] is too specific, depending on what the point is
19:12:03	<EvanR>	in other languages you have a default background of things all objects can do, but in haskell you don't
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19:12:18	<EvanR>	i.e. [forall a . a] can't do anything
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19:14:07	<delYsid>	Well, Things is a typeclass in my case I guess... The point is more about what signature its methods should exactly have. as said, the pure draw is simple and done, but the stateful handleEvent probably needs Lens somehow to writ the mutation back to the global state.
19:15:23	<EvanR>	if the big global state has type S then it sounds like your just want a S -> S
19:15:41	<EvanR>	lenses can help you build those, if you want
19:16:37	<EvanR>	your interface could involve (S -> S) or it could take IORef S
19:17:10	<EvanR>	but yeah that there needs to be some interface was my point
19:17:24	<EvanR>	polymorphic or not
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19:20:15	<Raito_Bezarius>	is it possible to open a named shared memory location with stm library in Haskell?
19:20:34	<monochrom>	I think no.
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19:22:25	<Raito_Bezarius>	Is there a way to open named shared memory locations in Haskell, monochrom ?
19:24:49	<geekosaur>	I don't think there's an interface to the shmget() etc. functions currently. There is one to mmap() but I'm not sure how up to date it is
19:25:24	<geekosaur>	STM only operates in-process; there is no way to synchronize across processes using a shared memory segment, either with STM or with MVars
19:25:55	<Raito_Bezarius>	Thanks geekosaur!
19:25:57	<hololeap>	delYsid: this is my idea: http://sprunge.us/uIMjhF?haskell
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19:29:38	<sm>	looks interesting
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19:31:21	<hololeap>	oops, there's a typo at the end. fixed: http://sprunge.us/7F3zYK?haskell
19:32:43	<EvanR>	what is the n type in bricks Widget
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19:33:12	<hololeap>	you might notice that viewHandleEvent returns `EventM n (Maybe (Next v))` instead of `EventM n (Next v)` -- this is so that you can choose to pass the event on to the parent handler
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19:33:35	<hololeap>	EvanR: it's essentially a sum type that lets you identify your widgets, or at least the important ones
19:33:54	<EvanR>	oh, a naming system
19:33:59	<hololeap>	yeah
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19:40:48	<delYsid>	n is for name, actually.
19:41:33	<delYsid>	hololeap: Hmm, I am too slow to digest this immediately, but it looks promising. Thanks for writing it up!
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19:45:15	<hololeap>	delYsid: np. you might also want to add this http://sprunge.us/txnro4 ... not sure how it will all shake out in real code, but this could probably accommodate nested Views as well
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19:47:35	<hololeap>	where you would end up with `ViewState (ViewState v2 v1) s` or something, where v1 is the state for the outer View and v2 is the state for the inner View
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19:48:36	<hololeap>	I've actually thought about this exact problem before so I had some ideas already :)
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19:52:20	<delYsid>	Oh, so the plan is to launch an App for a view? Thats interesting
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19:57:00	<hololeap>	the idea is that a View is an independent system, sort of like an App, and this means you need to hijack appHandleEvent so that the View can handle events independently and pass on any "leftovers" to the main App
19:58:15	<hololeap>	again, I've only ever thought about this in theory. I haven't tried implementing it or using it so I don't know if it will end up being annoying to use in the end for some reason
19:59:27	<Athas>	...is there really no convenience function in aeson for decoding from String or Text?
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20:00:05	<hololeap>	there should probably be a mechanism so that a View can both handle event _and_ pass it on to its parent, instead of "consuming" it being the only choice
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20:01:03	<jumper149>	Can I use a literate Haskell file with cabal?
20:01:19	<geekosaur>	cabal knows the .lhs extension is Haskell source, yes
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20:10:21	<delYsid>	hololeap: I way planning to do the "passing on of event" by actually suing some sort of Keymap. Right now, I have a global appHandleEvent which picks the current view and call its handler, doing any global stuff hardcoded. Your idea looks neat, but I dont see how I'd add views to a container, same problem I guess.
20:11:21	<delYsid>	hololeap: As said initially, I'd like to combine Brick and Dyre, which means I'll have a config file which launches the resulting app. the plan is to be able to add views in that config file, hence the open sum type thing...
20:11:45	<delYsid>	damn, I cant type.
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20:33:07	<EvanR>	so if I had, let's say, a big Data.Map which will not change. Then use Data.Compact to get the compact version of it. Then I want to union in additional smaller maps that don't overlap with the big map... can I just do it and it will utilize the compact region?
20:33:35	<EvanR>	or would it be better to hold two maps, the small dynamic ones and the large compact one and manually check both
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20:36:02	<EvanR>	I'm thinking merging a compact map and a non compact map may begin to copy stuff out of the compact region and defeat the purpose
20:37:21	<geekosaur>	I think that'd only copy the spine out, keys and values would stay put as long as there's no overlap?
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20:38:58	<EvanR>	if keys and values are small, wouldn't the spine constitute a big % of the space
20:39:38	<geekosaur>	yes, but they'd both have to be pretty small
20:40:01	<geekosaur>	bad idea for Map Int Int, less so for Map String String
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20:40:35	<EvanR>	or IntMap BasicADTWithAFewInts
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20:41:24	<EvanR>	that the keys and values stay in the compact region is good
20:41:46	<geekosaur>	IntMap probably breaks that since it'd be possible to UNPACK the keys into the spine
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20:41:52	<EvanR>	oof
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20:42:57	EvanR	hmms
20:43:47	<EvanR>	i will stop premature optimizing for now
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21:00:25	<__monty__>	Hmm, I use Criterion to benchmark my Advent of Code solutions and yesterday's assignement is throwing me for a loop. The benchmark errors out on me with "Too many open files." What's the usual fix for this? Am I accidentally using lazy IO and the file's not clos... Yep, that was it (file not closing not sure it's actually lazy IO), wasn't parsing until eof >.<
21:00:37	<__monty__>	Thanks for rubber ducking! <3
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21:02:47	<xb0o2>	You're welcome... to where do we send the invoice?
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21:03:08	<c_wraith>	__monty__: benchmarking is better when it doesn't include the file IO anyway. You'd probably get more actionable results if you read the input first and then passed it to all the test cases
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21:04:31	<__monty__>	c_wraith: I know these numbers aren't very meaningful. (I don't even bother making sure the load on my machine isn't already high before running them.) It's just the number I want to know : )
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22:24:31	<dmj`>	xb0o2: lol
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23:19:03	<zero>	can someone help me understand where I should put my class constraints when i use forall.?
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23:19:57	<zero>	frequencies :: (Foldable f, Ord a) => forall a. f a -> Map a Int -- does this make sense?
23:19:57	<EvanR>	forall usually goes all the way to the right
23:20:04	<EvanR>	~~~~~~
23:20:06	<EvanR>	to the left
23:20:22	<EvanR>	forall is only somewhere in the middle when doing RankN types
23:20:33	<hpc>	the way to remember is forall brings things into scope
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23:20:57	<hpc>	it's like writing "x \x -> stuff"
23:21:24	<EvanR>	forall f a . (Foldable f, Ord a) => f a -> Map a Int
23:22:10	<zero>	fair enough. and we need the f beacause we lost the implicit quantification, right?
23:23:04	<EvanR>	if you're doing ScopedTypeVariables you have to name them all
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23:23:31	<EvanR>	unless they we're already introduced by an enclosing forall
23:24:06	<EvanR>	name em all or name none
23:25:38	<monochrom>	One forall to bind them all. :)
23:25:47	<dsal>	I did the "number my tree" thing for last night's thing using traverse in a State monad and was trying to see if I could do something fancier with partsOf/biplate, but all attempts are worse.
23:25:54	<dsal>	I need to just get around to learning how to make a zipper.
23:27:16	<EvanR>	numbers...
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23:28:29	<dsal>	This is not actually that bad: `number = flip evalState 0 . traverse (\x -> (,x) <$> (id <+= 1))`
23:28:32	<dsal>	but the solution kind of sucks.
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All times are in UTC on 2021-12-18.