Logs on 2021-12-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:03:25 | <EvanR> | is there any state of the art on implicit configurations I'm not aware of... is reflection still the latest for that |
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| 00:07:29 | <iphy> | EvanR: https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/commit/19e45c13acbaea04182674ec6be1db9f23369975 |
| 00:08:46 | <iphy> | EvanR: so now I have Fix around everything, how can I put attributes on it? |
| 00:09:22 | <iphy> | I removed the Attr node |
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| 00:10:06 | <iphy> | I guess I'll need something like Fix but with another property on it |
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| 00:10:34 | <iphy> | can TraverseAst be made to work on any arbitrary Fix-like type? |
| 00:10:58 | <iphy> | maybe the Fix-like object needs a class that unwraps it |
| 00:11:17 | <iphy> | this will be a puzzle for another day :) |
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| 00:24:52 | <iphy> | EvanR: I'm not sure what this refactoring bought me, what did I get for free? |
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| 00:25:43 | <iphy> | can TraverseAst be automatic now? |
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| 00:48:34 | <iphy> | EvanR: what would a function look like that adds attributes to an existing AST wrapped in Fix? |
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| 01:33:22 | <energizer> | "broadcast vs map" https://julialang.org/blog/2017/01/moredots/#broadcast_vs_map is there a function like broadcast in haskell? |
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| 01:36:24 | <dsal> | energizer: I don't know Julia. Can you describe what you're trying to do? |
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| 01:36:40 | <energizer> | dsal: this is just idle curiosity |
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| 01:37:41 | <dsal> | Well, sure, but I don't understand what broadcast is meant to do and don't have enough background in julia to figure out what it's trying to do. |
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| 01:57:59 | <Lycurgus> | int-e, how did you get 208.94.116.26 for lyah dot com? |
| 02:00:23 | <Lycurgus> | in any case, it having been gone for sure for several days and with that (nearlyfreespeech) as the last hosting |
| 02:01:26 | <Lycurgus> | accepting author has moved on, doesn't care with > 80% confidence |
| 02:02:40 | <Lycurgus> | with the complementary (< 20%) likelihood the author will bring back at his expense |
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| 02:18:41 | <EvanR> | iphy, maybe Fix (AttrF `Compose` ExprF) |
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| 02:34:23 | <otherwise> | foldl starts at the left side of a list, and moves to the right through the list? |
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| 02:35:49 | <geekosaur> | both foldl and foldr do. (you can't start at the "right end" of a list, and the notion is incompatible with foldr being able to handle infinite lists) |
| 02:36:03 | <geekosaur> | foldl left-associates; foldr right-associates |
| 02:36:12 | <geekosaur> | > foldr f z [a,b,c] |
| 02:36:13 | <lambdabot> | f a (f b (f c z)) |
| 02:36:18 | <geekosaur> | > foldl f z [a,b,c] |
| 02:36:19 | <lambdabot> | f (f (f z a) b) c |
| 02:37:29 | <geekosaur> | if anything, left associativity means it's foldl that "starts at the right", as shown there |
| 02:39:18 | <dsal> | otherwise: foldr works with infinite lists. It’s a good default when you don’t care |
| 02:40:45 | <dsal> | > foldr (\x o -> 3) 5 [11..] |
| 02:40:47 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
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| 02:42:06 | <geekosaur> | foldr works more naturally with lists because they're right-associative to begin with |
| 02:42:11 | <geekosaur> | % :info (:) |
| 02:42:11 | <yahb> | geekosaur: type [] :: * -> *; data [] a = ... | a : [a]; -- Defined in `GHC.Types'; infixr 5 : |
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| 02:51:33 | <otherwise> | implementing map with foldr: |
| 02:51:42 | <otherwise> | > let mapFoldr f xs = foldr (\x acc -> f x : acc) [] xs in mapFoldr (+1) [1..5] |
| 02:51:44 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,4,5,6] |
| 02:52:01 | <EvanR> | with eager evaluation, foldr would cause f c z to "happen first", in foldl f z a "happens first", as shown with those expansions from lambdabot |
| 02:52:23 | <otherwise> | then with foldr: |
| 02:52:25 | <otherwise> | > let mapFoldl f xs = foldl (\acc x -> f x : acc) [] xs in mapFoldl (+1) [1..5] |
| 02:52:26 | <lambdabot> | [6,5,4,3,2] |
| 02:52:34 | <otherwise> | it is reversed |
| 02:52:36 | <EvanR> | with lazy evaluation it's neither of those |
| 02:53:42 | <otherwise> | hmm okay, i'll mull it over |
| 02:54:22 | <EvanR> | in particular the expansions don't properly explain the operational aspect of foldl |
| 02:54:29 | <EvanR> | (lazy version) |
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| 03:06:06 | <iphy> | EvanR: hm interesting |
| 03:09:46 | <otherwise> | how do I make ghci do: |
| 03:09:48 | <otherwise> | > foldl f z [a,b,c] |
| 03:09:49 | <lambdabot> | f (f (f z a) b) c |
| 03:10:19 | <xsperry> | :t foldl f z [a,b,c] |
| 03:10:20 | <lambdabot> | Expr |
| 03:10:24 | <xsperry> | @hoogle Expr |
| 03:10:25 | <lambdabot> | Test.Tasty.Patterns.Types data Expr |
| 03:10:25 | <lambdabot> | module Text.Parsec.Expr |
| 03:10:25 | <lambdabot> | module Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Expr |
| 03:10:26 | <otherwise> | import Data.lambdabot or something? |
| 03:14:50 | <xsperry> | it is a separate library, but I can't recall its name. |
| 03:16:19 | <otherwise> | after doing "import Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Expr" now my prelude is "Prelude Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Expr> " |
| 03:16:45 | <otherwise> | and :browse gives something new |
| 03:17:00 | <xsperry> | no that isn't it, Parsec is a parsing package |
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| 03:21:36 | <dsal> | > f [Expr] |
| 03:21:36 | <otherwise> | dsal foldl does not work on infinite lists because there is not an element to start moving left from (last item in the list)? I hope thats the case cause it makes sense to me. |
| 03:21:38 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 03:21:38 | <lambdabot> | • Data constructor not in scope: Expr |
| 03:21:38 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant variable ‘expr’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect) |
| 03:21:49 | <dsal> | Simple reflect |
| 03:22:18 | <dsal> | otherwise: yeah, you can see it in the expansion above |
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| 03:34:06 | <iphy> | EvanR: "well at least you get map and fold for free" <- where is map? |
| 03:36:15 | <jackson99> | otherwise, did you figure out list of functions issue you had earlier today? |
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| 03:40:56 | <int-e> | lyxia: I googled for a cached DNS query (since there are websites that do DNS queries) |
| 03:41:23 | <int-e> | oh no |
| 03:41:37 | <int-e> | that was for Lycurgus who left |
| 03:41:59 | <otherwise> | jackson99 no |
| 03:42:33 | <jackson99> | :t map (*) [1,2,3,4] |
| 03:42:33 | <lambdabot> | Num a => [a -> a] |
| 03:42:35 | <otherwise> | I still don't know how to use take on (map (*) [0..5]) |
| 03:42:37 | <otherwise> | or any list |
| 03:42:52 | <jackson99> | > map ($10) (map (*) [1,2,3,4]) |
| 03:42:53 | <lambdabot> | [10,20,30,40] |
| 03:42:54 | <otherwise> | I can get it to evaluate the head of a list |
| 03:43:13 | <otherwise> | hmm |
| 03:43:15 | <jackson99> | or with lambda |
| 03:43:23 | <jackson99> | > map (\f -> f 10) (map (*) [1,2,3,4]) |
| 03:43:25 | <lambdabot> | [10,20,30,40] |
| 03:43:35 | <jackson99> | or you can just do: |
| 03:43:58 | <jackson99> | > map (*10) [1,2,3,4] |
| 03:44:00 | <lambdabot> | [10,20,30,40] |
| 03:44:11 | <jackson99> | unless the goal was specifically to build a list of functions for some reason |
| 03:46:59 | <otherwise> | okay, i'll see if I can not make take work on (map (*) [0..]) |
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| 03:48:45 | <otherwise> | > let funList = map (*) [0..] in take 3 (map ($10) funList) |
| 03:48:46 | <lambdabot> | [0,10,20] |
| 03:48:58 | <otherwise> | dear god. that took hours to make work |
| 03:49:06 | <otherwise> | 100's of failed attempts |
| 03:49:21 | <otherwise> | thank you dearly |
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| 03:52:54 | <otherwise> | > let funList n m = take n (map ($m) (map (*) [0..])) in funList 10 3 |
| 03:52:55 | <lambdabot> | [0,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27] |
| 03:53:13 | <otherwise> | awwww, how refreshing |
| 03:53:54 | <jackson99> | do you know what $ is? |
| 03:54:36 | <otherwise> | precedence demoter |
| 03:54:45 | <jackson99> | > let funList n m = take n (map (*m) [0..])) in funList 10 3 |
| 03:54:46 | <otherwise> | or something like that |
| 03:54:47 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:42: error: parse error on input ‘)’ |
| 03:54:51 | <jackson99> | > let funList n m = take n (map (*m) [0..]) in funList 10 3 |
| 03:54:53 | <lambdabot> | [0,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27] |
| 03:54:57 | <jackson99> | no need for double map |
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| 03:56:46 | <otherwise> | right, but that is skipping the whole notion of "I have a list of partial application functions, how do I enter it and evaluate the function" |
| 03:57:16 | <otherwise> | I agree, for that line of code, skipping the map (*) is the logical thing to do |
| 03:57:35 | <iphy> | EvanR: https://github.com/TokTok/hs-cimple/blob/master/src/Language/Cimple/Pretty.hs#L389-L397 how would something like this work with foldFix? |
| 03:57:45 | <jackson99> | use a lambda then, easier to understand than $, since you don't seem to know what $ is |
| 03:58:07 | <otherwise> | But I was approaching as if I had a preexisting [(0*), (1*), ..] and then using take on it |
| 03:58:16 | <otherwise> | haha |
| 03:58:16 | <iphy> | https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/src/Language/Cimple/Pretty.hs#L387-L395 <- here is the Fix version |
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| 04:00:00 | <jackson99> | that's not a knock on you, $ is confusing at first |
| 04:00:13 | <dsal> | :src ($) |
| 04:00:18 | <dsal> | @src ($) |
| 04:00:18 | <lambdabot> | f $ x = f x |
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| 04:07:11 | <otherwise> | When I try to read :doc in ghci, all the @ symbols throw me off, what do they mean, or better yet, how to I translate it into an english sentence? the same way I'd translate 3+2 into Three plus two, for ex... |
| 04:07:47 | <dsal> | I've never used that feature. I should try it. |
| 04:08:14 | <dsal> | Oh, it's just haddock stuff. |
| 04:08:52 | <otherwise> | > :doc $ |
| 04:08:53 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 04:08:56 | <c_wraith> | Yeah, that's a major issue with :doc right now |
| 04:09:09 | <dsal> | % :doc ($) |
| 04:09:09 | <yahb> | dsal: Application operator. This operator is redundant, since ordinary; application @(f x)@ means the same as @(f '$' x)@. However, '$' has; low, right-associative binding precedence, so it sometimes allows; parentheses to be omitted; for example:; > f $ g $ h x = f (g (h x)); It is also useful in higher-order situations, such as @'map' ('$' 0) xs@,; or @'Data.List.zipWith' ('$') fs xs@.; Note th |
| 04:09:18 | <c_wraith> | there needs to be some effort made in rendering haddock to plain text |
| 04:09:25 | <otherwise> | its probably better that way, it would just blow up the chat with lots of lines |
| 04:09:41 | <otherwise> | oh, there it is |
| 04:10:03 | <otherwise> | yea, all those @ symbols! |
| 04:10:07 | <c_wraith> | otherwise: haddock uses @ to start and end inline code formatting |
| 04:10:13 | <c_wraith> | they don't mean anything |
| 04:11:22 | <c_wraith> | or rather, they don't mean anything as code, because they're markup. Not code. They're rendering instructions that :doc ignores and decides to print instead |
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| 04:12:48 | <c_wraith> | Same as the ' around identifiers - haddock for "generate a link to this symbol" |
| 04:13:12 | <otherwise> | got it |
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| 04:22:45 | <otherwise> | jackson99 and c_wraith thank you :) |
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| 05:20:50 | <EvanR> | iphy, map is Functor |
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| 05:26:02 | <[itchyjunk]> | :i |
| 05:26:04 | <[itchyjunk]> | :o |
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| 05:29:50 | <jackson99> | % :i Functor |
| 05:29:50 | <yahb> | jackson99: type Functor :: (* -> *) -> Constraint; class Functor f where; fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b; (<$) :: a -> f b -> f a; {-# MINIMAL fmap #-}; -- Defined in `GHC.Base'; instance [safe] Functor m => Functor (WriterT w m) -- Defined in `Control.Monad.Trans.Writer.Lazy'; instance [safe] Functor m => Functor (StateT s m) -- Defined in `Control.Monad.Trans.State.Lazy'; instance [safe] Functor m => Func |
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| 05:36:06 | <alfonsox> | is learnyouhaskell.com down ? |
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| 05:36:59 | <dsal> | I've heard resolution complaints today. |
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| 05:38:00 | <jackson99> | it is down |
| 05:38:08 | <jackson99> | but you can read it in here. https://web.archive.org/web/20211204094509/http://learnyouahaskell.com/ |
| 05:39:44 | <alfonsox> | learnyouahaskell.com’s server IP address could not be found. This is what I am getting in chrome. |
| 05:40:14 | <alfonsox> | Thank you @jackson99. I'll use web.archive for now. |
| 05:42:27 | <alfonsox> | Anyone have authors email ? bonus at learnyouahaskell dot com ( mentioned at site), but not sure if email will reach to him due to name resolution error. |
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| 05:49:26 | <EvanR> | maybe it's time for the next learn you a haskell xD |
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| 06:08:46 | <otherwise> | Are you writing EvanR ? |
| 06:09:13 | <otherwise> | big public irc book reveal? |
| 06:09:48 | <EvanR> | I can't justify that, I don't know enough haskell |
| 06:10:26 | <EvanR> | Besides, I think learning haskell would be better as an old school text adventure (with graphics) |
| 06:11:31 | <otherwise> | Yes, I agree about that format, that should be the next standard. I think haskell.org homepage tutorial is a very rudimentary version of that. It is good and could be expanded creatively |
| 06:12:04 | <EvanR> | as always the key is collecting the proper exercises |
| 06:13:50 | <otherwise> | well the storyline would somewhat dictate that. As long as you keep to the story line, the exercises would just fall in place. (easier said than realized...) |
| 06:15:09 | <EvanR> | one of the two is much harder to come up with |
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| 06:19:24 | <otherwise> | hmm, I just realized all the haskell I've done is dealing with lists. Is there a way to write a nXm matrix? |
| 06:19:35 | <EvanR> | reflection has a weird side effect... if you have a top level thing that is like foo :: Given MyConfig => Other -> Stuff, then :t foo won't work in ghci. Though foo will still work "if used" correctly |
| 06:19:59 | <EvanR> | no instance for Given MyConfig |
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| 06:20:20 | <dsal> | You could do something along the lines of AoC, but suggest particular things for the solution. |
| 06:20:41 | <EvanR> | otherwise, I've done a few of those. Also available in libraries |
| 06:20:58 | <dsal> | otherwise: There are arrays with arbitrary indexes and Data.Vector. And probably countless actual matrix libraries. |
| 06:22:51 | <dsal> | I end up using Maps a lot. |
| 06:23:57 | <EvanR> | specifically "n x m" matrix is kind of calling for the n and m to be in the type, which you can do |
| 06:24:28 | <EvanR> | and would be great |
| 06:25:03 | <EvanR> | the blog "graphical linear algebra" makes you really want those in the type |
| 06:26:12 | <EvanR> | if you're doing graphics maybe you can get away assuming everything is 4x4 |
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| 06:30:36 | <otherwise> | let split (x:xs) = if length xs < 7 then [] else (take 7 (x:xs)): split (tail xs) in split [1..21] |
| 06:30:41 | <otherwise> | > let split (x:xs) = if length xs < 7 then [] else (take 7 (x:xs)): split (tail xs) in split [1..21] |
| 06:30:43 | <lambdabot> | [[1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[3,4,5,6,7,8,9],[5,6,7,8,9,10,11],[7,8,9,10,11,12,13],[9,10... |
| 06:31:01 | <otherwise> | oh its too big.. |
| 06:31:27 | <otherwise> | > let split (x:xs) = if length xs < 3 then [] else (take 3 (x:xs)): split (tail xs) in split [1..15] |
| 06:31:29 | <lambdabot> | [[1,2,3],[3,4,5],[5,6,7],[7,8,9],[9,10,11],[11,12,13]] |
| 06:31:45 | <EvanR> | chunksOf 3 |
| 06:32:00 | <xerox> | > takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt 4) $ [1..10] |
| 06:32:02 | <lambdabot> | [[1,2,3,4],[5,6,7,8],[9,10]] |
| 06:32:27 | <EvanR> | > chunksOf 3 [1..15] |
| 06:32:28 | <lambdabot> | [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9],[10,11,12],[13,14,15]] |
| 06:33:18 | <otherwise> | chunksOf is not in my ghci |
| 06:33:34 | <EvanR> | I think it's from a package... called split |
| 06:33:49 | <EvanR> | that is apparently loaded |
| 06:38:38 | <dsal> | @hoogle chunksOf |
| 06:38:39 | <lambdabot> | Data.Sequence chunksOf :: Int -> Seq a -> Seq (Seq a) |
| 06:38:39 | <lambdabot> | Data.Sequence.Internal chunksOf :: Int -> Seq a -> Seq (Seq a) |
| 06:38:39 | <lambdabot> | Data.Text chunksOf :: Int -> Text -> [Text] |
| 06:41:14 | <EvanR> | Data.List.Split |
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| 06:47:45 | <otherwise> | > let mapIn = map (1 -) (head (split[1..15])) |
| 06:47:47 | <lambdabot> | <no location info>: error: |
| 06:47:47 | <lambdabot> | not an expression: ‘let mapIn = map (1 -) (head (split[1..15]))’ |
| 06:48:06 | <EvanR> | in what |
| 06:48:54 | <otherwise> | I dont think it would work anyway cause I forgot lambdabot doesnt know what I defined as split |
| 06:49:09 | <EvanR> | yeah |
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| 06:58:13 | <otherwise> | is it offensive that Haskell is not on codeacademy? |
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| 07:02:16 | <EvanR> | They have two columns of 7 languages. Making 3 columns of 5 languages may be too much to ask for their web design |
| 07:02:28 | <dsal> | That looks like a vocational thing. |
| 07:02:37 | <dsal> | Not learning to be better, but learning to make money. |
| 07:02:54 | <EvanR> | code academy is who's making the money here |
| 07:03:43 | <otherwise> | is haskell for poor people? |
| 07:04:08 | <EvanR> | it's for anyone who is interested |
| 07:06:15 | <dsal> | Haskell is for making blockchains and NFTs. |
| 07:06:37 | <dsal> | It's just generally a great language that makes programming fun and easy. |
| 07:07:01 | <dsal> | It's used in a few different industries, but it's best when it's not industry specific. |
| 07:07:04 | <EvanR> | I just appointed dsal VP of sales and marketing for haskell |
| 07:07:16 | <dsal> | haha |
| 07:07:52 | <EvanR> | You just have a really good attitude and strong reality distortion field |
| 07:08:03 | <dsal> | Sounds right. |
| 07:08:09 | <otherwise> | Cardano is using haskell, apparently for blockchain tech |
| 07:08:16 | <dsal> | I've had a lot of large codebases, though. |
| 07:08:23 | <otherwise> | alluded by VP of sales |
| 07:08:49 | <dsal> | otherwise: Yeah. A friend of mine into that stuff tried to pull me in a while back for smart contracts and stuff. It was horrifying. I told him they needed people with Haskell experience. Now it's a brain drain as they suck in all the people with haskell experience. |
| 07:09:07 | <dsal> | Getting a job doing Haskell that's *not* blockchain related is a bit harder now. |
| 07:10:36 | <dsal> | Of course, that's assuming you *want* that kind of job. Knowing Haskell makes you a better programmer in general. I did a lot of non-Haskell professional programming while doing all my personal projects in Haskell. |
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| 07:12:48 | <otherwise> | interesting |
| 07:13:19 | <EvanR> | knowing C is also good. Also not on code academy |
| 07:13:31 | <EvanR> | also hard to get a job in |
| 07:13:55 | <dibblego> | it's way easier |
| 07:14:25 | <dibblego> | There were about 5 jobs using Haskell in the world. It was easy to make 10 more. Today, don't even have to make them. |
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| 07:37:12 | <otherwise> | trying to implement last, using foldl1, with an edge condition that returns [] if an infinite list is input.... https://paste.tomsmeding.com/xmlgcXmF |
| 07:37:45 | <dibblego> | you won't |
| 07:38:05 | <otherwise> | not possible? |
| 07:38:14 | <dibblego> | you going to count to infinity to check? |
| 07:38:23 | <otherwise> | if i have to |
| 07:38:29 | <dibblego> | ok, I'll wait |
| 07:38:33 | <otherwise> | done |
| 07:39:09 | <dibblego> | I've gone to a party while I wait, but if I were a type-checker instead... |
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| 07:50:09 | <nicbk> | #openbsd |
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| 08:13:51 | <talismanick> | Is there a resource for "minimal Nix" (just enough needed to manage Haskell packages), or do I need to learn it in full? |
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| 08:50:06 | <altern> | Hi! How to properly convert the list of files into a recursive record in Haskell? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/70490845/how-to-properly-convert-the-list-of-files-into-a-recursive-record-in-haskell |
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| 09:00:20 | <int-e> | https://nitter.fdn.fr/gone_things/status/1475245068994838528#m |
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| 09:45:13 | <otherwise> | I'm trying Day 1 at adventofCode, and the provided input is a large list of numbers, stacked in a vertical collumn, but haskell cannot read it as a list. I managed to add a comma at the end of each number in vim, but I can't get vim to delete the line break in front of every number at one, to make all numbers be on the same line. Any tips? |
| 09:46:18 | <Rembane> | :i lines |
| 09:46:22 | <Rembane> | Meh |
| 09:46:23 | <Rembane> | :t lines |
| 09:46:24 | <lambdabot> | String -> [String] |
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| 09:46:36 | <Rembane> | > lines "1\n2\n3\n4" |
| 09:46:37 | <lambdabot> | ["1","2","3","4"] |
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| 11:10:12 | <acode> | Following up on a discussion from a few days ago, has anyone figured out what happened to the learn you a haskell website? |
| 11:11:49 | <geekosaur> | still only conjecture, no definitive answer |
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| 11:12:22 | <iphy> | https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/src/Language/Cimple/Pretty.hs#L498-L502 how would one express this using recursion-strategies or data-fix? |
| 11:12:59 | <acode> | I see. Hopefully it'll be back |
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| 11:54:54 | <otherwise> | do you use vim (in terminal) or something else for writing haskell programs? |
| 11:55:17 | <iphy> | I use vim in terminal |
| 11:55:20 | <xerox> | me too |
| 11:55:37 | <iphy> | vscode is pretty good these days though |
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| 11:57:49 | <otherwise> | I dont have a lot of experience, but I use vim in terminal, although it is a little daunting cause there are so many quick commands. I see other people in videos now and again and they are blazing through their code jumping around like a rabbit... kind of a steep learning curve to get proficient |
| 11:59:18 | Vq | uses Emacs in X11 |
| 12:00:53 | <Vq> | I don't use that many fancy features for Haskell development though. |
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| 12:01:40 | <Vq> | Just plain haskell-mode + stylish-haskell on save. |
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| 12:05:50 | <otherwise> | hmm Emacs eh |
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| 12:08:55 | <otherwise> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0qa2v50r |
| 12:09:48 | <otherwise> | interested in feedback, especially regarding the stupid long list. There must be a better way to deal with it. |
| 12:10:20 | <otherwise> | from AoT, day 1 part 1 |
| 12:12:16 | <otherwise> | maybe the long list can live in a separate .hs file, and the main.hs file calls the list file? I haven't done anything like that yet... |
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| 12:21:52 | <alfonsox> | write input to .txt file |
| 12:23:04 | <alfonsox> | use "getContents" to read input file. |
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| 12:27:26 | <otherwise> | alfonsox i'll give that a try now |
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| 12:36:17 | <xerox> | :t \x y f g h -> do { x' <- f x; y' <- g y; h x' y' } |
| 12:36:18 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => t1 -> t2 -> (t1 -> m t3) -> (t2 -> m t4) -> (t3 -> t4 -> m b) -> m b |
| 12:36:24 | <xerox> | :t \x y f g h -> do { h <*> f x <*> g y } |
| 12:36:25 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => t1 -> t2 -> (t1 -> f a1) -> (t2 -> f a2) -> f (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> f b |
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| 12:36:52 | <xerox> | is there a way to use the second style but achieving the first's objective, with a h :: _ -> _ -> m r |
| 12:38:38 | <tomsmeding> | :t \x y f g h -> do { h <$> f x <*> g y |
| 12:38:39 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 12:38:39 | <lambdabot> | parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) |
| 12:38:42 | <tomsmeding> | :t \x y f g h -> do { h <$> f x <*> g y } |
| 12:38:43 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => t1 -> t2 -> (t1 -> f a1) -> (t2 -> f a2) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> f b |
| 12:39:09 | <alfonsox> | otherwise - readFile would be better. Check Files and Stream section on https://web.archive.org/web/20211102000749/http://learnyouahaskell.com/input-and-output#files-and-streams |
| 12:40:06 | <tomsmeding> | :t \x y f g h -> join (h <$> f x <*> g y) |
| 12:40:07 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => t1 -> t2 -> (t1 -> m a1) -> (t2 -> m a2) -> (a1 -> a2 -> m a3) -> m a3 |
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| 12:41:22 | <xerox> | tomsmeding: alright :) |
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| 12:41:46 | <tomsmeding> | feels like join (fmap f x) should be simplifiable |
| 12:42:23 | <xerox> | @pl \f x -> join (fmap f x) |
| 12:42:23 | <tomsmeding> | oh but it's not, it's join (fmap f x <*> y) |
| 12:42:23 | <lambdabot> | (=<<) |
| 12:42:39 | <xerox> | @pl \f x y -> join (fmap f x <*> y) |
| 12:42:39 | <lambdabot> | (((join .) . (<*>)) .) . fmap |
| 12:42:45 | <xerox> | 🤮 |
| 12:42:46 | <tomsmeding> | useful :p |
| 12:43:12 | <xerox> | :t liftM2 |
| 12:43:13 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r |
| 12:43:16 | <xerox> | this also is just pure |
| 12:43:56 | <tomsmeding> | not quite, right? |
| 12:44:06 | <xerox> | yeah I mean just r not m r |
| 12:44:17 | <tomsmeding> | liftM2 = \f x y -> f <$> x <*> y, if the Applicative and Monad instances agree |
| 12:44:30 | <xerox> | :t (>=>) |
| 12:44:31 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c |
| 12:44:33 | <tomsmeding> | so your thing is also join (liftM2 h (f x) (g y)) |
| 12:44:44 | <xerox> | yup |
| 12:46:25 | <tomsmeding> | :t \x y f g h -> f x >>= (g y >=> h) |
| 12:46:26 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => t1 -> t2 -> (t1 -> m a) -> (t2 -> a -> m b1) -> (b1 -> m b2) -> m b2 |
| 12:46:32 | <tomsmeding> | not sure that makes it better :p |
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| 12:47:07 | <tomsmeding> | oh it's wrong |
| 12:48:13 | <tomsmeding> | >=> doesn't help |
| 12:48:45 | tomsmeding | remembers using liftM always in my early haskell adventures; then I discovered it's just fmap |
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| 12:49:06 | <hpc> | eventually you discover it's just (<$>) :D |
| 12:49:36 | <tomsmeding> | :p yeah I did that at roughly the same time |
| 12:50:01 | <tomsmeding> | 'input <- map (map read) . lines <$> getContents' for the win |
| 12:50:09 | <tomsmeding> | with some 'words' in between |
| 12:50:24 | <hpc> | using straight "fmap" reminds me too much of common lisp, somehow |
| 12:50:40 | <hpc> | where you have to worry about what's a real function, what's a macro, everything is annoyingly prefix, etc etc |
| 12:50:55 | <hpc> | not really sure why that's where my mind goes, but i always prefer (<$>) because of it |
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| 12:51:55 | <otherwise> | alfonsox thanks I'll look at that. I think I'm actually just going to continue with LYAH instead, because that is the next section for me anyway :) After that I'll come back and see if I can replace the gargantuan list into a separate txt file that I can call into an [Int}. |
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| 12:52:53 | <hpc> | speaking of lyah, the website is still down :( |
| 12:53:21 | <otherwise> | my PDF is still going strong |
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| 12:54:25 | <otherwise> | Yeah I was in the thick of the contents when it just shut down. Hopefully it is a sign of some upgrades to come! (probably not) |
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| 12:58:46 | <[itchyjunk]> | I have a non haskell question, are there FP languages without GC? |
| 12:59:12 | <hpc> | hmm, lyah is cc by-nc-sa, maybe it can be rehosted on haskell.org? |
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| 13:09:58 | <ksqsf> | [itchyjunk]: iirc ATS seems to claim to support GC-free FP, but I haven't tried it yet |
| 13:11:21 | <[itchyjunk]> | Apparently I don't know what GC is. Some say scoped memory management implied GC others say it doesn't. ;_; |
| 13:11:40 | <[exa]> | [itchyjunk]: there is a naive super-inefficient implementation of the GCless FP (all copies are deep copies, including the copies of closures/thunks) |
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| 13:12:57 | <[exa]> | [itchyjunk]: most of the MM magic is about dodging by sharing some of the structures while being able to guess when it's safe to free the structure, usually by just tracking everything with a GC |
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| 13:14:14 | <ksqsf> | [itchyjunk]: btw what is 'scoped memory management'? do you mean C++-style RAII? |
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| 13:15:06 | <[itchyjunk]> | It was in response to "does C has GC?" it was "no, it only has scoped memory management" |
| 13:17:24 | <[itchyjunk]> | I had never though of it but it does make sense that you'ed be making deep copies as an alternative |
| 13:17:33 | <[exa]> | [itchyjunk]: if you allocate all resources in strictly nested regions, the memory management can be easily done with a stack-like structure, which is precisely what C does for "simple" variables |
| 13:17:50 | <[itchyjunk]> | ah |
| 13:17:51 | <[exa]> | (malloc() and free() doesn't count here, these are kinda "external" to the core language) |
| 13:19:44 | <[exa]> | C++ RAII kinda follows the same principle even with allocations of these "external" structures using malloc/new free/delete, the stack only retains a "handle", usually some kind of a wrapped pointer that can deallocate itself |
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| 13:20:49 | <[exa]> | with the usual FP that involves lots of functions being passed around, the ability to hide super-complex things in thunks makes the stack-style memory management quite useless |
| 13:22:18 | <[exa]> | there are ways to statically analyze lots of FP and compile it down to stack code, but these usually aren't general and it's technically much easier to go the dynamic way with garbage collection |
| 13:22:53 | <tomsmeding> | [itchyjunk]: https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp/ exists; kind of functional |
| 13:27:35 | <tomsmeding> | [itchyjunk]: if you have a strict language without mutation (haskell is neither :p), reference counting is sufficient. Some count RC as a GC, and it kind of is, but it's impact on program execution is of a very different nature than stop-the-world GCs |
| 13:28:00 | <tomsmeding> | iirc python has RC, but including some kind of cycle detection because (due to mutation) you can create cyclic data structures in python |
| 13:28:34 | <[itchyjunk]> | Oh, is this why there is a hard limit for number of recursion in py? |
| 13:28:56 | <tomsmeding> | no that's just control stack size, unrelated :p |
| 13:29:02 | <[itchyjunk]> | hmmmmm |
| 13:29:03 | <[itchyjunk]> | lol |
| 13:29:07 | <tomsmeding> | (if you're talking about function recursion) |
| 13:29:12 | <acode> | What does RC stand for? |
| 13:29:16 | <tomsmeding> | reference counting |
| 13:29:41 | <acode> | Thanks, time to do some googling |
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| 13:30:37 | <[itchyjunk]> | if you have no pointer pointing to a datastructure in memory, you can free that part of memory - i think it's something like that |
| 13:30:39 | [itchyjunk] | googles too |
| 13:30:56 | <tomsmeding> | RC (without additional cycle detection) fails in a lazy language or in a language with mutable elements (haskell's IORef is enough, even apart from laziness), because RC cannot handle reference cycles; the members of the cycle would keep each other alive |
| 13:31:51 | <tomsmeding> | [itchyjunk]: yeah, the idea is that every time you throw away a reference to an object, you decrement a counter on the object; if that decrement yields zero, deallocate the object (and recursively handle the references contained therein, if any) |
| 13:32:47 | <tomsmeding> | with RC, "GC time", and when "GC" runs, is fully deterministic if your program is deterministic |
| 13:33:25 | <[itchyjunk]> | hmm |
| 13:33:40 | <tomsmeding> | but some stop-the-world GC algorithms have the advantage that they only need to iterate over _live_ memory at each world pause; in contrast, RC needs to perform action on every object that becomes dead (and additionally needs to keep all those reference counters up to date) |
| 13:33:59 | <tomsmeding> | so RC is not necessarily more efficient in terms of throughput than stop-the-world mark-and-sweep |
| 13:34:03 | <ksqsf> | RC usually has lower latency but also has lower throughput; I always prefer traing GCs |
| 13:34:10 | <ksqsf> | tracing * |
| 13:34:11 | <tomsmeding> | but it may be more predictable |
| 13:34:19 | <tomsmeding> | what ksqsf says |
| 13:35:02 | <[itchyjunk]> | hmm why is it lower throughput? |
| 13:35:03 | <tomsmeding> | ksqsf: tracing GC is what stop-the-world that traverses only live memory, right? i.e. what GHC has |
| 13:35:13 | <tomsmeding> | [itchyjunk]: in the end, in total, RC needs to do more work |
| 13:35:22 | <tomsmeding> | because of all the reference count updating |
| 13:35:27 | <[itchyjunk]> | ah |
| 13:35:53 | <tomsmeding> | and if you time a GC pause right, when the working memory is low, that GC only has to traverse the live memory (i.e. a small set if you're lucky), freeing all the dead memory in O(1) |
| 13:36:33 | <tomsmeding> | so, tracing is O(live memory), while RC is O(reference mutations + dead memory), I _think_ (may be missing stuff) |
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| 13:49:27 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: There's a fun tweak for RC where for every decrease of a reference count, you free a constant number of items from a to-free list (and maybe put new ones on the list), which has real-time properties if each memory item has a bounded number of pointers... essentially you free stuff lazily, smoothing what would otherwise be an amortized cost. |
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| 13:55:23 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: oh that's neat, indeed relies on objects having a bounded number of references |
| 13:55:33 | <tomsmeding> | s/having/containing/, less ambiguous |
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| 14:31:49 | <iphy> | is there a better way to write this? https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/src/Language/Cimple/Diagnostics.hs#L43-L140 |
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| 14:47:28 | <pavonia> | iphy: I used to use uniplate in such situations. Not sure if this is still a thing today |
| 14:47:59 | <iphy> | Neil Mitchell 2006-2020 |
| 14:48:02 | <iphy> | looks like yes |
| 14:48:18 | <iphy> | Uploaded by NeilMitchell at 2020-11-07T19:53:43Z |
| 14:48:45 | <pavonia> | Yeah, but GHC has greater support for generics today. Maybe there's somthing better already built-in |
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| 14:52:04 | <tomsmeding> | fairly sure you can do that with generics, but not sure how easy that is compared to just giving up and writing this out :p |
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| 15:14:22 | <tomsmeding> | pavonia: bit of a mess but it does seem to work https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bIGQNN1J |
| 15:15:17 | <tomsmeding> | ah but it only works if 'lexeme' does not have [] as its outer type |
| 15:15:22 | <tomsmeding> | because of the hacky overlapping instances |
| 15:16:47 | <tomsmeding> | but you should be able to prevent that from going wrong by fmapping a newtype wrapper over the lexeme |
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| 15:18:29 | <pavonia> | iphy: ^ |
| 15:18:31 | <tomsmeding> | oh it does work! |
| 15:18:42 | <tomsmeding> | I just forgot to update the type ascription in 'main' :) |
| 15:20:17 | <tomsmeding> | concats' :: NodeF a [a] -> [a] ; concats' = concats |
| 15:20:20 | <tomsmeding> | easier |
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| 15:20:47 | <tomsmeding> | presumably uniplate makes stuff easier, but never worked with that :P |
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| 15:26:17 | <otherwise> | ... that seems like a lot of code to print ['a'..'g'] |
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| 15:33:04 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 15:33:20 | <tomsmeding> | but it works for any value of 'Char', and also if you add more constructors to the data type ;) |
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| 15:44:27 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: Oh you went down that path too... I ended up with https://paste.tomsmeding.com/6mEKw6Ur |
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| 15:45:46 | <int-e> | (so ugly) |
| 15:45:51 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: why INCOHERENT and not OVERLAPPING? :p |
| 15:46:08 | <int-e> | because they *are* incoherent |
| 15:46:21 | <iphy> | tomsmeding: nice |
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| 15:46:42 | <iphy> | lexeme is always something that's not a list |
| 15:46:46 | <int-e> | if u = v, Fold2_Base u v u and Fold2_Base u v v produce different behavior |
| 15:46:49 | <iphy> | (e.g. it's never String) |
| 15:47:31 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: it's a side effect of dealing with two types rather than one |
| 15:48:11 | <int-e> | And I don't like it. But it seems to work. Make of that what you will... |
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| 15:49:34 | <int-e> | This means, btw, that manually inlining `fold2` is dangerous. |
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| 15:53:55 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: interesting |
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| 15:55:16 | <tomsmeding> | oh yeah I didn't add support for Maybe |
| 15:56:05 | <tomsmeding> | but that's easy, the types show the way :D |
| 15:56:54 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: the [a] and (Maybe a) instances are merely OVERLAPPING though |
| 15:57:01 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 15:59:52 | <mjrosenb> | is there a definition of what makes instances incoherent or overlapping? I've never ran into either before. |
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| 16:01:02 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/instances.html#overlapping-instances |
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| 16:01:24 | <tomsmeding> | if you want all the details :p |
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| 16:08:15 | <iphy> | tomsmeding: https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/src/Language/Cimple/Diagnostics.hs#L44 |
| 16:08:24 | <iphy> | https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/src/Language/Cimple/Flatten.hs |
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| 16:09:51 | <tomsmeding> | iphy: might not need a separate instance for Maybe [a], right? |
| 16:10:10 | <tomsmeding> | the Maybe and OVERLAPPABLE [] instances should cover that |
| 16:10:11 | <tomsmeding> | but nice! |
| 16:10:27 | <tomsmeding> | _might_ want some comments :p |
| 16:10:29 | <iphy> | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/rsBXUD6Q/ |
| 16:10:34 | <iphy> | tomsmeding: yeah, soon :) |
| 16:10:57 | <tomsmeding> | oh heh |
| 16:11:26 | <tomsmeding> | replace the 'instance GenConcatsFlatten (Maybe a) a' with 'instance GenConcatsFlatten b a => GenConcatsFlatten (Maybe b) a' |
| 16:11:38 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps also OVERLAPPABLE |
| 16:11:47 | <tomsmeding> | (in case 'a' is ever Maybe something) |
| 16:12:30 | <iphy> | yeah |
| 16:12:39 | <iphy> | it's never Maybe something, so this works |
| 16:12:41 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, this also works |
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| 16:13:12 | <iphy> | https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/src/Language/Cimple/Flatten.hs#L46 |
| 16:14:45 | <tomsmeding> | yay |
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| 16:27:56 | <iphy> | lexeme will always be either Lexeme String, Lexeme Text, or some other atomic type (never List or Maybe or another functor) |
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| 16:30:44 | <geekosaur> | String is a list |
| 16:30:47 | <geekosaur> | not atomic |
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| 16:31:56 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: Lexeme String != String |
| 16:32:36 | <tomsmeding> | iphy: still you can fmap a newtype wrapper over the thing to ensure that the root type is always that newtype wrapper, so that it can never go wrong even if someone does something stupid later on |
| 16:32:56 | <tomsmeding> | not sure if 'fmap' is the right thing here though |
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| 16:55:20 | <mjrosenb> | should emacs with hls be able to compile things without invoking haskell-compile? |
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| 17:07:25 | <haask> | In this year of 2021, is it possible to take an existing Stack project (say, a REPL for some language) and compile it to run clientside in a browser? I understand the options to be GHCJS (no Stack support), Haste (no TemplateHaskell support), Reflex - any other option I'm overlooking before I go down the rewrite-for-GHCJS rabbithole? |
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| 17:10:22 | mario_ | is now known as spaceseller |
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| 17:13:02 | <iphy> | tomsmeding: this is good enough now :) Flatten is used internally only |
| 17:13:19 | <iphy> | thanks btw |
| 17:13:40 | <tomsmeding> | iphy: <3 |
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| 17:56:14 | <lyxia> | Can I use cabal to compile a single file that depends on packages? `cabal exec ghc` complains that I don't have a cabal.project... |
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| 18:01:42 | <EvanR> | it's possible to use ghc with the flags for those packages |
| 18:01:59 | <EvanR> | but would be nice if cabal did that |
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| 18:14:00 | <sm> | I think stack scripts can compile themselves (to an executable you can reuse) but cabal scripts can't |
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| 18:34:38 | <iphy> | I've refactored my pretty printer to use foldFix. I needed to communicate information from a deeper layer upwards, so I made it part of the accumulator. is that the right way to do this? https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/src/Language/Cimple/Pretty.hs#L28 |
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| 18:42:05 | <EvanR> | oh man you can go nuts with pretty printing by mapping each item to nested boxes, each of which carries format info and color! |
| 18:42:32 | <EvanR> | to be interpreted by yet another layer of (over)engineering |
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| 18:44:03 | <EvanR> | at least it would be monomorphic |
| 18:44:45 | <monochrom> | In general, rendering engines are like that. Pretty printing is just a special case. |
| 18:45:31 | <monochrom> | You can regain polymorphism by unifying pretty printing, polygon rendering, ray tracing, and path tracing. >:) |
| 18:47:26 | <EvanR> | in before someone claims that it's very important to distinguish different kinds of syntax by their material properties, mirror, plastic, rubblepile |
| 18:48:04 | <monochrom> | Syntax texturing \∩/ |
| 18:48:10 | <EvanR> | (the docs for google filament are pretty cool) |
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| 18:50:27 | <zincy> | How does parametric polymorphism fall short of dependent functions. Take cons :: a -> [a] -> [a] |
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| 18:51:01 | <zincy> | Is it because you cant cons a Int onto a [Bool] ? |
| 18:51:43 | <monochrom> | I don't understand the question. |
| 18:51:44 | <zincy> | By dependent function I mean something like this in Lean |
| 18:51:46 | <zincy> | constant cons : Π α : Type u, α → list α → list α |
| 18:52:04 | <EvanR> | you can't cons an Int onto a [Bool] with dependent functions either |
| 18:52:13 | <EvanR> | type error |
| 18:52:20 | <geekosaur> | you can't write a function which can do a differrent thing depending on what a is |
| 18:52:31 | <geekosaur> | dependent functions can |
| 18:52:39 | <zincy> | Is that not what a dependent function allows you to do? |
| 18:52:49 | <EvanR> | not exactly like that |
| 18:52:56 | <geekosaur> | Haskell's cons is polymorphic but has to do the same thing regardless of a |
| 18:53:07 | <monochrom> | cons is a confusing example because it will turn out to be parametric even in a non-parametric language. |
| 18:53:22 | <monochrom> | Please choose a truly non-parametric example. |
| 18:53:55 | <EvanR> | that cons in lean example isn't really dependent |
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| 18:54:32 | <zincy> | ugh I am asking confused questions |
| 18:54:42 | <zincy> | I should probably just read a book on type theory |
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| 18:55:40 | <EvanR> | the overused example is a list whose type contains its length... vect |
| 18:55:59 | <EvanR> | then cons updates that length |
| 18:56:27 | <zincy> | Which makes cons in that case a dependent function right |
| 18:57:23 | <monochrom> | Not convinced it gets closer. "a -> V n a -> V (n+1) a" is still parametric in both a and n. |
| 18:58:10 | <zincy> | Whats the link between being parametric and dependent? |
| 18:58:22 | <EvanR> | yeah it's still polymorphic |
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| 18:59:06 | <monochrom> | I don't know of a link. But I know parametricity. |
| 18:59:34 | <monochrom> | I don't expect a link either. Links are overrated. |
| 19:00:35 | <EvanR> | you can't get a proper dependent type without using the name of one of the parameters later in the type after its introduced |
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| 19:00:57 | <EvanR> | which pi and sigma let you do |
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| 19:02:21 | <zincy> | Yeah was just reading about pi and sigma |
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| 19:03:05 | <EvanR> | Pi (n : Int) -> (if even n then Bool else Char) |
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| 19:03:52 | <EvanR> | silly example but you can do actual cool things with it |
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| 19:06:42 | <zincy> | So can I do Pi (n : int) -> (if even n then A else B) |
| 19:08:04 | <EvanR> | more likely Pi (n : Int) -> f n where f : Int -> Type and could do that |
| 19:09:05 | <EvanR> | jargon for f could be "an indexed family of types" |
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| 19:09:58 | <zincy> | Is Type just like a type parameter? |
| 19:10:04 | <EvanR> | no |
| 19:10:15 | <EvanR> | Type is the type of types |
| 19:10:23 | <EvanR> | like Int : Type |
| 19:10:55 | <zincy> | So is this because there is no instantiation to do? |
| 19:11:14 | <zincy> | f 1 and f 2 can return different types |
| 19:11:22 | <zincy> | or have I mean |
| 19:11:23 | <EvanR> | if you had a parameter of type Type, passing in a type is like instanciation in haskell |
| 19:12:00 | <EvanR> | yes |
| 19:12:52 | <EvanR> | in this case f always returns a Type though |
| 19:13:05 | <zincy> | So is it a bit like existential types in haskell but on the value level |
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| 19:14:19 | <zincy> | returning Type from a function means the consumer of the function picks a different type for every value applied to f |
| 19:14:30 | <zincy> | Sort of existentially maybe |
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| 19:14:44 | <EvanR> | Sigma is how you express existential types with dependent types |
| 19:14:53 | <EvanR> | which also involves this Type family thing |
| 19:15:42 | <zincy> | So with sigma values don't determine the result type |
| 19:16:03 | <EvanR> | they do |
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| 19:16:36 | <EvanR> | Sigma (n : Int, if even n then Char else Bool) |
| 19:16:50 | <iphy> | EvanR: yes, you can go nuts, but I also want it to be readable code |
| 19:16:56 | <EvanR> | the type of the snd component depends on the value of n |
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| 19:20:31 | <zincy> | Ok so each value is mapped to a choice of multiple types |
| 19:22:10 | <EvanR> | so (0,'a') (1,False) (2,'z') (3,True) are values of that sigma type |
| 19:22:54 | <EvanR> | when the second component is not a boring value but evidence of some property, it gets more interesting |
| 19:23:28 | <EvanR> | Sigma (n : Int, Even n) |
| 19:23:58 | <EvanR> | has values (0,<proof term>) (2,<other proof term>) ..., but not (1, <impossible>) |
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| 19:25:23 | <EvanR> | Even n are all different Types so you need dependent types for this |
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| 19:40:29 | <zincy> | Oh nice |
| 19:40:41 | <zincy> | EvanR: What is Even n ? |
| 19:43:10 | <EvanR> | a type |
| 19:43:31 | <EvanR> | carefully designed to represent the fact that n is even |
| 19:43:48 | <EvanR> | (if and only if it is) |
| 19:45:18 | <EvanR> | types are propositions, values are the proofs |
| 19:45:25 | <EvanR> | if any |
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| 19:49:12 | <zincy> | ok thanks |
| 19:49:36 | <zincy> | I am guessing that I wont pick this up by reading and will have to actually play around with a dependently typed language |
| 19:49:43 | <EvanR> | yeah |
| 19:49:59 | <zincy> | Then I will be able to ask well formed questions |
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| 21:07:28 | <[itchyjunk]> | Non haskell question, i was made aware of a "omega combinator" which is (\x.xx) (\x.xx). But googling "omega combinator" mostly gives me things about JS. does it have alternative name? |
| 21:08:49 | <geekosaur> | doubled y combinator. which adds little over a single y combinator |
| 21:08:59 | <geekosaur> | (y combinator applied to another y combinator) |
| 21:09:12 | <[itchyjunk]> | hmmm |
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| 21:10:17 | <[itchyjunk]> | Argh, googling anything with ycombinator seems to result the incubator website and not the ycombinator i want :D |
| 21:10:21 | × | geekosaur quits (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:11:31 | <hpc> | try "fixed point combinator" |
| 21:11:55 | <hpc> | or adding "lambda calculus" to the search |
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| 21:12:11 | <[itchyjunk]> | ahh ty |
| 21:12:27 | <[itchyjunk]> | i had seed fixed point combinator wiki page actually, didn't realize that was what i wanted |
| 21:12:36 | <[exa]> | [itchyjunk]: I never saw anyone to refer it in a different way than just Ω = ωω; sometimes it is very informally called "infinite loop" |
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| 21:13:09 | × | shriekingnoise quits (~shrieking@186.137.144.80) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 21:13:19 | <[exa]> | fixpoint combinators (Y) are a tiny bit more complex because they have the `f` there. In fact Ω = YI |
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| 21:14:57 | <[exa]> | geekosaur: btw you meant YY ? (/me tries that kind of recursion in head) |
| 21:15:00 | <[itchyjunk]> | Right. I was watching a "computerphile" video on it and he gives an exercise for fixed point combinator but he covers the (\x.xx) (\x.xx) thing on it's own |
| 21:15:02 | <[exa]> | (head explodes) |
| 21:16:08 | <[exa]> | anyway it's likely the smallest λ-term with no normal form (ie "fully reduced") |
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| 21:23:28 | <EvanR> | the heck is omega combinator is js |
| 21:23:33 | <EvanR> | in js |
| 21:25:21 | <iphy> | never heard of it in js, and my google search yields nothing |
| 21:26:00 | <[exa]> | const Ω = () => {while(true){}}; |
| 21:26:18 | <[exa]> | seems like I'll need to restart the browser now. |
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| 21:27:42 | <hpc> | using while seems like cheating... |
| 21:27:58 | <[exa]> | nah I properly inlined that! |
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| 21:28:43 | <EvanR> | i know how to do lambda calculus in js, was wondering if it was some terribly named unrelated library xD |
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| 21:32:50 | <[exa]> | hpc: never underestimate properly applied optimizations https://godbolt.org/z/3skK9j |
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| 21:33:40 | <EvanR> | what |
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| 21:34:34 | <steven1> | hello, is `data Void -- empty` considered isomorphic to forall a. a ? I initially thought yes, but it seems I can go Void -> a with `absurd v = case v of { }`, but I can't go a -> Void since I obviously can't construct a value of type Void |
| 21:34:46 | <steven1> | I can use undefined of course, but not sure if that's allowed when I'm trying to find an isomorphism |
| 21:35:07 | <EvanR> | they both have no real values, and they both have undefined |
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| 21:35:34 | <EvanR> | so either way they are in correspondence |
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| 21:36:27 | <lyxia> | steven1: a -> Void is different from (forall a. a) -> Void. |
| 21:36:37 | <steven1> | ah that is true |
| 21:36:58 | <steven1> | then again I can still write the same absurd definition for that type too I think |
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| 21:37:16 | <steven1> | oh wait that's the other way |
| 21:37:25 | <lyxia> | you can also just do \x -> x |
| 21:37:37 | <steven1> | ah that's right |
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| 21:41:57 | <steven1> | I was trying to derive the representation of existential types by hand. e.g. (forall r. r -> a) -> a is the same as exists r. r What I found is that exists r. r is isomorphic to (forall r. r -> Void) -> Void but this definition doesn't seem to work |
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| 21:42:27 | <steven1> | intuitively it seems like (forall r. r -> Void) -> Void is also isomorphic to forall a. (forall r. r -> a) -> a but I can't prove it |
| 21:43:00 | <steven1> | and if I try to use the void version in haskell the same way it doesn't seem to work. Obviously it only returns Void so I can't possibly get any information out of it |
| 21:44:08 | <EvanR> | well you just picked a = Void |
| 21:44:15 | <EvanR> | not a problem |
| 21:44:31 | <steven1> | yeah but I can't seem to go the other way |
| 21:45:06 | <EvanR> | hmm? |
| 21:45:13 | <steven1> | e.g. I can see that exists r. r == (forall r. r -> Void) -> Void . But I don't see how to get from this to the forall a version |
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| 21:45:47 | <steven1> | once I know that forall a . (forall r. r -> a) -> a is the answer, I know how to go backward, but I don't see how I could have gotten there from what I have |
| 21:45:52 | <EvanR> | one's a justified specialization of the other |
| 21:46:03 | <EvanR> | not sure how you'd undo that |
| 21:46:47 | <EvanR> | it's like saying, if I know reverse :: [Char] -> [Char], how do I prove that reverse can work for any type of list |
| 21:46:58 | <EvanR> | (without looking at the code) |
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| 21:47:44 | <steven1> | yeah, I thought the isomorphism from Void to forall a. a might help, but it's not clear to me. Let me run through the steps a bit and see if I get somewhere |
| 21:49:14 | <EvanR> | the specialized fact you saw reflects that anything "false" about the hidden value... is false |
| 21:49:44 | <steven1> | ah that's intereseting intuition |
| 21:49:57 | × | drewr quits (~drew@user/drewr) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 21:49:58 | <steven1> | then maybe my derivation is strictly less powerful than the other version |
| 21:53:55 | <steven1> | let me post my steps in a minute and maybe someone can find an error in what I've done |
| 21:56:59 | <steven1> | https://gist.github.com/stevenfontanella/c26bfbf79f615ae0145ae4704df8b47f here's what I did |
| 21:57:24 | <steven1> | I am kind of mixing predicate logic with 'type' logic which might be wrong |
| 21:58:03 | <steven1> | one thing I'm not sure of is line 2 actually, since tecnically it should be an exclusive disjunction I guess (one value can't have multiple types) |
| 21:58:07 | <EvanR> | a proof of not a = a -> Void seems funny |
| 21:58:27 | <steven1> | yeah not too sure of that either |
| 21:58:41 | <steven1> | it should be true in predicate logic but not sure if it carries over to this |
| 21:59:11 | <EvanR> | that's just the definition of not |
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| 22:00:06 | <monochrom> | What is "\/ a" doing on its own line? Syntax error? |
| 22:00:20 | <steven1> | it's like a disjunction over a set |
| 22:00:43 | <EvanR> | the lines seem a bit incomplete, like they're not saying anything |
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| 22:01:19 | <EvanR> | exists a . a doesn't seem equal to \/ a or anything |
| 22:01:31 | <steven1> | by \/ a I mean we're doing a disjunction over all types e.g. t1 \/ t2 \/ t3 \/ t4 and so on |
| 22:01:38 | <EvanR> | lol what |
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| 22:02:05 | <steven1> | I was thinking exists a. a means a is either t1, or t2, etc. so I represent it as a logical disjunction |
| 22:02:49 | <monochrom> | You don't need to "translate" exists a. a to \/a just to use de Morgan. not (forall a. not a) is just fine. |
| 22:02:54 | <EvanR> | it means there exists a type |
| 22:03:16 | <monochrom> | Hell, you don't need to "translate", period. |
| 22:03:23 | <alekhine_> | Hello. I'm trying to get a handle on this language, but i'm having trouble finding resources beyond the wiki and the purple book. I've written a couple very basic things but that's it. I have experience in imperative languages. If anybody could recommend some stuff for a beginner, that would be great. I appreciate any help |
| 22:03:57 | <steven1> | monochrom: hmm ok, my motivation was to derive the representation of existential types (forall r. r -> a) -> a from scratch |
| 22:04:05 | <EvanR> | if someone tells you there exists a type a, well there you have it. That is what type there is |
| 22:05:06 | <EvanR> | doing a set complement on the whole universe types sounds interesting and outside the usual realm of possibility xD |
| 22:05:12 | <steven1> | alekhine_: what's the purple book? I liked learn you a haskell when I started |
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| 22:05:58 | <steven1> | EvanR: yeah, could be. My derivation is close so I'm thinking there could be some connection here |
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| 22:06:05 | <monochrom> | alekhine_: I don't know what's the purpose book. My http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html comments on some books and works I know. Maybe you find something suitable to you or not. |
| 22:06:08 | <alekhine_> | steven1: I was referring to Haskell Programming from First Principles, by Chris Allen and Julie Moronuki |
| 22:06:33 | <alekhine_> | Thanks monochrom |
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| 22:08:00 | <dsal> | alekhine_: That book is pretty great, but if you're not understanding something, it'd be easier to offer guidance if you said what you didn't understand and gave some context as to why you didn't understand it. |
| 22:08:34 | <dsal> | e.g., "experience in imperative languages" hints at some handicaps that will make a few things harder to understand. |
| 22:08:37 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 22:08:37 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 22:09:22 | <monochrom> | Yeah, there is diminishing return in more reading. |
| 22:09:57 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 22:10:41 | <monochrom> | And the 1000-page tome is already a lot of reading. |
| 22:11:01 | <iphy> | which combinator can I use to implement this function? https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/test/Language/Cimple/ASTSpec.hs#L25 |
| 22:11:38 | <EvanR> | steven1, so you proved (exists a . a) -> (forall r . r -> b) -> b. With \e f -> f e. And you want to prove ((forall r . r -> Void) -> Void) -> (exists a . a) ? |
| 22:12:00 | <alekhine_> | Fair enough dsal. I guess I'm trying to just learn everything I can do? I think I want a list of topics or features I need to know about so I can write useful programs, then move on to more advanced things later |
| 22:12:01 | <EvanR> | or |
| 22:12:53 | <monochrom> | That direction is probably unprovable in constructive logics. |
| 22:13:08 | <alekhine_> | And yes, my ingrained imperative experience has actually hindered my learning. |
| 22:13:17 | <steven1> | EvanR: I guess I proved (exists a. a) -> (forall r. r -> Void) -> Void |
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| 22:13:29 | <dsal> | alekhine_: I found the book pretty good for that. It's hard to know what's holding you up, though. |
| 22:13:32 | <EvanR> | turns out using some basic assumptions you can translate any imperative program into a functional program xD |
| 22:13:41 | <EvanR> | for what it's worth |
| 22:13:42 | <dsal> | I had a few programs I'd written in Haskell that I'd been using while going through that book. |
| 22:13:50 | <monochrom> | Indeed Kant complained about Hilbert's PhD thesis precisely because Hilbert was pulling that off. |
| 22:13:54 | <steven1> | and I want to go to ((forall r. r -> Void) -> Void) -> (forall a. (forall r. r -> a) -> a) |
| 22:14:11 | <EvanR> | yeah, doesn't seem plausible to do that |
| 22:15:08 | <alekhine_> | dsal: fair enough, i'll go find some problem to bash my head against then come back with a more specific question |
| 22:15:15 | <monochrom> | The statement to be proved was "there exists blah blah", Hilbert did "if blah blah didn't exist, something would go wrong". Kant was like "that's not math, that's theology". |
| 22:15:25 | <EvanR> | haha |
| 22:15:37 | <steven1> | yeah, that's too bad. I tried subbing Void = forall a. a but it doesn't seem to help. There's no way to require that both Voids are the same a. At least, I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to 'pull out' the forall |
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| 22:16:07 | <EvanR> | sure |
| 22:16:14 | <EvanR> | the forall a |
| 22:16:19 | <EvanR> | doesn't changing anything |
| 22:16:35 | <EvanR> | might make it even more clear what's going on |
| 22:17:09 | <steven1> | yeah, basically I can make it into (forall r. r -> (forall a. a)) -> (forall a. a) but seems like I'm stuck from here |
| 22:17:51 | <EvanR> | once multiple different a appear I go for a third letter |
| 22:17:56 | <EvanR> | just to avoid confusion |
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| 22:18:54 | <Henson> | Hi everyone, I'm trying to build a project in which a Haskell function is exported to C via the FFI, but I'm getting an "undefined reference" to the exported function at link time. What can I put in the cabal file to make C find this Haskell function? Finding the C function in Haskell works just fine. |
| 22:23:15 | solidfox | is now known as snake |
| 22:23:19 | <Henson> | hmm, it seems if I move the library in question from "exposed-modules" to "other-modules" it compiles and gets rid of the error. |
| 22:24:46 | <EvanR> | steven1, or... the task of proving that A implies B when A and B can be proven independently is possible but pointless |
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| 22:25:18 | <EvanR> | i.e. f :: Int -> Char, f _ = 'c' |
| 22:25:21 | <EvanR> | Int implies Char |
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| 22:25:45 | <steven1> | Void can't be proven though |
| 22:25:55 | <EvanR> | no Void is happening in your theorem |
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| 22:26:35 | <EvanR> | unless i copy pasted wrong |
| 22:26:50 | <EvanR> | ((forall r. r -> Void) -> Void) -> (forall a. (forall r. r -> a) -> a) |
| 22:27:42 | <steven1> | yeah that's what I want |
| 22:28:02 | <EvanR> | \_ f = f id |
| 22:28:07 | <dsal> | alekhine_: Yeah, for me, having a thing I want to work on makes learning *way* easier. |
| 22:28:23 | <steven1> | you're saying that has that type? |
| 22:28:33 | <EvanR> | yeah, a = Void -> Void xD |
| 22:28:38 | <EvanR> | er |
| 22:28:44 | <EvanR> | the second r = Void -> Void |
| 22:29:21 | <EvanR> | they are just independent |
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| 22:29:47 | <EvanR> | all this leads back to the premise "someone tells you there exists a type, now what" |
| 22:29:55 | <steven1> | hmm let me think about your definition |
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| 22:29:59 | <EvanR> | rather, there is a type and it's inhabited |
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| 22:33:44 | <steven1> | yes, I see your point, we basically ignored the first argument and then proved this: theorem :: (forall a. (forall r. r -> a) -> a) |
| 22:33:50 | <steven1> | theorem f = f id |
| 22:33:57 | <steven1> | which is like saying exists r. r |
| 22:34:02 | <steven1> | 'there exists a type' |
| 22:34:09 | <EvanR> | that is inhabited |
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| 22:34:18 | <EvanR> | for example, Void -> Void xD |
| 22:35:30 | <EvanR> | alternatively show that some type is inhabited |
| 22:35:32 | <steven1> | I think our formulation was wrong: theorem :: ((forall r. r -> Void) -> Void) -> (forall a. (forall r. r -> a) -> a). The r on the right is different from the r on the left |
| 22:35:45 | <steven1> | the left should imply that that r exists, not some other r |
| 22:36:22 | <EvanR> | it's "implied" by being unrelated and also "true" |
| 22:36:31 | <steven1> | yeah |
| 22:36:40 | <steven1> | that's why I'm thinking we proved the wrong thing |
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| 22:37:17 | <steven1> | ah, this is tough |
| 22:37:25 | <EvanR> | the informal thing you were saying made no real sense, so I take a win if I can get it xD |
| 22:38:17 | <steven1> | I can believe that, not sure where I went wrong though |
| 22:38:25 | <EvanR> | the Void version of church encoded(?) existential is a possibility but doesn't really have any bearing on the general version or help |
| 22:38:49 | <steven1> | yeah |
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| 22:41:51 | <steven1> | well, thanks for the help EvanR . Maybe I will get some inspiration another time |
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| 23:02:35 | <iphy> | which combinator can I use to implement this function? https://github.com/iphydf/hs-cimple/blob/fix/test/Language/Cimple/ASTSpec.hs#L25 |
| 23:03:20 | <EvanR> | fmap ? |
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| 23:10:07 | <iphy> | EvanR: fmap on the Fix? |
| 23:10:27 | <iphy> | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/PkVts157/ |
| 23:10:33 | <EvanR> | oh uh, under the Fix ? |
| 23:10:51 | <iphy> | fmap f . unFix? |
| 23:10:52 | <EvanR> | Fix isn't actually there, afterall xD |
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| 23:11:22 | <EvanR> | Fix . fmap f . unFix ? |
| 23:11:57 | <iphy> | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Xecn7gdr/ |
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| 23:17:49 | <EvanR> | hoistFix :: Functor f => (forall a. f a -> g a) -> Fix f -> Fix g |
| 23:18:01 | <EvanR> | hoistFix' :: Functor g => (forall a. f a -> g a) -> Fix f -> Fix g |
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| 23:30:17 | <iphy> | ah nice |
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| 23:33:26 | <EvanR> | Wonder when this tricks will run out xD |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-12-27.