Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-01-01 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:18 <EvanR> as an example of how idris streamlines things, the type level pair, type level list is not a promoted datakind, it's literally the pair and list that you would use on values
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00:02:09 <monochrom> @quote monochrom poor.*dependent
00:02:10 <lambdabot> monochrom says: dynamic type is poor man's dependent type, they are so poor they can't buy a theorem prover.
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00:02:22 <ProfSimm> The way I imagine it is that you assign a type directly to a variable, and it has this abstract constraint now. From that point on you can only assign a more constrained type on it until it gets assigned a specific value
00:02:54 <hpc> idris 2 also has linear types, which is pretty cool too
00:03:20 <EvanR> you can 'assign' types to variables in idris, as if they were values
00:03:54 <EvanR> they are allowed in the same places as values, as long as their types match up (types have types)
00:03:58 <geekosaur> although the notion of assigning more and more constraining types until you reach values sounds more like "gradual typing" to me
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00:05:19 <geekosaur> one problem with doing that in Haskell is that a type is what you promise to others, whereas a value is what you actually do
00:05:59 <monochrom> Hee hee why write programs if we expect proof erasure anyway >:)
00:06:00 <geekosaur> this has crucial differences when what you promise to others is that you will accept "any X such that…"
00:06:44 <geekosaur> you are not in this case refining a type, you are implementing a contract
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00:08:19 <geekosaur> how you implement it is your business as long as you obey the terms of the contract
00:10:58 <geekosaur> it'd actually make more sense if the contract were passed in, as opposed to "refining assignment" as you're thinking of
00:11:21 <geekosaur> that is, the contract comes from the caller, the implementation is the callee
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00:17:29 <geekosaur> actually I guess that's backwards. the type (contract) goes out, the implementation goes in
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00:20:57 <ProfSimm> I wonder can we do something to combine assignment and comparison for equality in one operator and action
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00:21:32 <ProfSimm> I mean if something is unassigned, then you assign it 5, it equals 5. So.
00:21:43 <ProfSimm> The comparison is true automaticlaly
00:21:43 <EvanR> if it were C it would be spelled ===
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00:22:19 <EvanR> and pronounced, equaliquals
00:22:21 <geekosaur> you seem to be looking for a lot of not-Haskell
00:22:32 <geekosaur> I mean, the whole concept of that goes against immutable data
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00:25:21 <EvanR> haskell doesn't feature "unassigned" variables
00:26:00 <EvanR> they are always bound to something, even if sometimes it is an error value or something
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00:28:35 <EvanR> s/feature/bug/
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00:36:20 <EvanR> too bad lambdabot doesn't have Data.Time so we can play with the date
00:36:48 <monochrom> Wait, what do you want to play with the date?
00:37:16 <geekosaur> % import Data.Time
00:37:16 <yahb> geekosaur:
00:37:21 <geekosaur> go nuts
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00:37:45 <EvanR> % fromGregorian 2021 12 31
00:37:45 <yahb> EvanR: 2021-12-31
00:37:50 <EvanR> cewl
00:39:07 <EvanR> % addDays 1 it
00:39:07 <yahb> EvanR: 2022-01-01
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00:39:30 <geekosaur> anyway I could imagine languages which did either, but they won't in much of any sense be Haskell
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01:49:13 <EvanR> hpc, I took the bait and went for the dang Applicative instance and ... the bind operation was only 3 lines xD https://paste.tomsmeding.com/41JicFe6
01:50:19 <EvanR> i guess i could use a library instead
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02:01:16 <kaction> Does anybody know how to suppress error messages "unable to decommit memory" due madvice returning ENOSYS? Would it be considered GHC bug that it keeps saying it again and again?
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02:02:33 <lechner_> Hi, could someone please explain how, in rel8, I can tie the Data.SemVer type to the postgresql-semver extension, please? Thanks! It's something like this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rel8-1.2.1.0/docs/src/Rel8.Type.html#typeInformation
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02:05:44 <lechner_> kaction: thanks for blazing the trail on this https://salsa.debian.org/lechner/dh-haskell
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02:09:33 <kaction> lechner_: you are welcome :)
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02:12:04 <lechner_> kaction: did you get the same reaction years ago? https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1002296#19
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02:19:17 <kaction> lechner_: I don't recall how it ended. I think dh-haskell got some adoption, but it had rough corners with more complicated packages, and I never took time to make it perfectly bit-to-bit compatible with whatever build system was status-quo.
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02:47:23 <lechner_> kaction: thanks! now it is. i copied everything from hlibrary.mk
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13:59:11 <InternetCitizen> > (\x -> (x 3, x "three")) (\x -> x)
13:59:13 <lambdabot> error:
13:59:13 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Char]) arising from the literal ‘3’
13:59:13 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘x’, namely ‘3’
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14:00:01 <InternetCitizen> why does this not work? It's like Haskell specializes the type of id to `Num a => a -> a`
14:00:22 <InternetCitizen> > (\x -> (x "four", x "three")) (\x -> x)
14:00:24 <lambdabot> ("four","three")
14:00:31 <InternetCitizen> > (\x -> (x 3, x 4)) (\x -> x)
14:00:33 <lambdabot> (3,4)
14:01:31 <InternetCitizen> on the Hindley-Milner wikipedia article I found:
14:01:40 <InternetCitizen> "Only values bound in a let construct are subject to instantiation, i.e. are polymorphic, while the parameters in lambda-abstractions are treated as being monomorphic."
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14:05:15 <InternetCitizen> > let id x = x in (id 3, id "three")
14:05:17 <lambdabot> (3,"three")
14:05:24 <hpc> InternetCitizen: it needs to be rank 2, which needs a type signature
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14:06:01 <InternetCitizen> what needs to be rank 2?
14:06:08 <hpc> that makes sure x stays as type (forall a. a -> a) and not some specific (a -> a) in the context of the lambda
14:06:40 <hpc> > let foo :: (forall a. a -> a) -> (Int, String); foo x = (x 3, x "three") in foo (\x -> x)
14:06:41 <lambdabot> (3,"three")
14:11:17 <InternetCitizen> hpc: if I understand correctly, the inference algorithm starts with `(\x -> (x "four", x "three"))`, gives x a type variable `a` and since we call it with "four" substitues `a` for type `String -> b` and fails when we call `x` with `Int` again?
14:12:25 <hpc> essentially
14:12:33 <Hecate> morning
14:13:02 <hpc> you get a weirder error than that because 3 :: Num a => a, so it thinks "hmm, what if there was instance Num String where ...?"
14:13:24 <hpc> > (\x -> (x False, x "False")) (\x -> x) -- this might make it more clear
14:13:25 <lambdabot> error:
14:13:25 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’ with actual type ‘[Char]’
14:13:25 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘x’, namely ‘"False"’
14:14:07 <InternetCitizen> then why does the Wikipedia article that writing lambd expressions this way is undecidable?
14:14:09 <InternetCitizen> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley%E2%80%93Milner_type_system#Let-polymorphism
14:14:27 <InternetCitizen> they give the example of `(λ id . ... (id 3) ... (id "text") ... ) (λ x . x)`
14:15:30 <InternetCitizen> "restricting the binding mechanism in an extension of the expression syntax. Only values bound in a let construct are subject to instantiation, i.e. are polymorphic, while the parameters in lambda-abstractions are treated as being monomorphic."
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14:15:54 <InternetCitizen> so Haskell type-inference isn't decidable ???
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14:16:42 <hpc> it's decidable if you don't allow that sort of example
14:17:25 <hpc> rank 2 is also decidable, but higher ranked stuff is not
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14:17:47 <hpc> rank 2 is where you see things like that nested forall in foo
14:18:01 <hpc> rank 3 is forall nested one level further, etc etc
14:18:19 <geekosaur> (note that ghc does not implement rank-2 type inference, even though it is decidable)
14:18:23 <InternetCitizen> I thought that the example is what I typed into Haskel
14:18:46 <InternetCitizen> > (\x -> (x 3, x "three")) (\x -> x)
14:18:48 <lambdabot> error:
14:18:48 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Char]) arising from the literal ‘3’
14:18:48 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘x’, namely ‘3’
14:18:49 <InternetCitizen> ^
14:18:55 <hpc> yeah, ghc chooses not to infer rank-2 types
14:19:40 <hpc> Rank2Types and RankNTypes used to be separate, so maybe if you went back to ghc 6 it could be inferred?
14:19:50 <geekosaur> no
14:20:17 <geekosaur> rank-2 type inference is fairly complicated, so they decided to punt on it because there didn't seem to be any demand for it
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14:20:37 <hpc> ah, forgot about that
14:20:45 <geekosaur> I mean, the typechecker is already complex enough without it :)
14:20:50 <hpc> in any event, you don't really want higher-ranked inference anyway
14:21:45 <hpc> imagine you're writing your code, and decide to implement some nice higher-order function like map
14:21:51 <hpc> you make a mistake somewhere and your code compiles
14:21:56 <InternetCitizen> how does it "choose" not to infer rank-2 types exactly? Does this simply amount to giving `x` a monomorphic type rather than a polymorphic one?
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14:22:01 <hpc> but surprise, it's now a rank-5 type or something and completely unusable
14:22:08 <hpc> and you have no error to figure out what you did wrong
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14:22:53 <InternetCitizen> that sounds scary, I don't even know what higher ranked types are
14:24:03 <hpc> a rank 3 type would be maybe something like (forall b. (forall a. a -> a) -> (b -> b)) -> (c -> c) -> c -> c
14:24:17 <hpc> just more and more foralls to the left of (->)
14:24:25 <hpc> at deeper and deeper nestings
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14:27:22 <InternetCitizen> so the real type of the lambda on the left is forall b, c. (forall a. a -> a) -> (b, c) ?
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14:27:47 <InternetCitizen> no sorry (forall a. a -> a) -> (String, Integer)
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14:28:11 <InternetCitizen> I mean for `(\x -> (x 3, x "three"))`
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14:28:26 <hpc> yes
14:28:47 <hpc> and thata (forall a. a -> a) type only accepts things that can be that polymorphic
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14:28:53 <hpc> it will accept id, but not ($) for instance
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14:30:29 <InternetCitizen> sorry but isn't ($) :: forall a. forall b. (a -> b) -> a -> b ?
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14:32:27 <hpc> InternetCitizen: yea, but you can define it as ($) = id
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14:32:41 <hpc> perhaps that's a bad example
14:32:54 <hpc> it will accept id, but not... not for instance
14:32:57 <hpc> :t not
14:32:58 <lambdabot> Bool -> Bool
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14:33:11 <hpc> grammatically that's an even worse example lol
14:34:53 <hpc> > let foo :: (forall a. a -> a) -> (Int, String); foo x = (x 3, x "three") in foo not
14:34:55 <lambdabot> error:
14:34:55 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘a’ with ‘Bool’
14:34:55 <lambdabot> ‘a’ is a rigid type variable bound by
14:35:16 <InternetCitizen> hpc: so if I understand correctly, this implies that when it tries to infer the type of (\x -> (x 3, x "three")), it gives x a type variable `a` and not a type schema `forall a . b` (or something like that)
14:35:17 <hpc> and that's the sort of error you get when you pass something that's "too monomorphic"
14:35:42 <hpc> yeah
14:36:00 <hpc> it tries to have the "forall a" all the way to the left
14:36:15 <hpc> foo :: forall a. (a -> a) -> (Int, String)
14:36:23 <hpc> which means you have to pick a single a when calling foo
14:38:28 <InternetCitizen> hpc: thank you very much <3
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15:05:25 <int-e> geekosaur: ^half an hour wasn't enough
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15:11:50 <geekosaur> blegh
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15:12:24 <Hecate> §2
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15:33:11 <acode> I'm a mathematician learning haskell and I'm confused by the name of the typeclass Functor. In my understanding Functor is for types that "can be mapped over" which makes a lot of sense, but I'm confused by its name. Is it related to functors in mathematics or is it one of the many instances of unrelated concepts sharing a name?
15:33:43 <geekosaur> it's a restricted form of a category theory functor, as I understand it
15:34:12 <geekosaur> there's a more genjeral one in Control.Category; the normla one is restricted to the (notional) category Hask of Haskell types
15:35:00 <acode> Uh I never realized that types form a category. What's an arrow in Hask?
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15:38:51 <Clint> https://wiki.haskell.org/Hask
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15:40:32 <geekosaur> and they don't quite, because of bottom. But I'm also led to believe that there are other category-like things that would admit Hask
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15:41:11 <geekosaur> also there's the paper "Fast and loose reasoning is morally correct" which shows that many CT things are applicable to Hask if you take some care
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15:42:52 <acode> very interesting, thanks for the references
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15:58:18 <lechner_> Hi, my cabal.project.local specifies "ignore-project: False; compiler: ghc" Do I need it? Thanks!
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16:15:54 <lyxia> How do I use an installed package with standalone invocations of ghc? I tried cabal install --lib first-class-families && ghc -package first-class-families and cabal seems to install things somewhere but ghc tells me it "cannot satisfy -package first-class-families"
16:16:09 <albet70> is there binary package manager for ghc?
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16:16:39 <hpc> albet70: does apt count? :P
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16:17:28 <albet70> apt provide scotty?
16:18:38 <geekosaur> lyxia, you may need to use --package-env (cabal) / -package-env (ghc)
16:18:47 <hpc> maybe?
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16:19:02 <hpc> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scotty doesn't list debian, but a few other distros have it packaged
16:19:49 <hpc> is there a reason you can't cabal install it?
16:20:16 <geekosaur> there's no binary package manager because too many things alter abis and ghc is critically dependent on the exact package abi for cross-module inlining
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16:21:15 <albet70> my VPS only has 1GB RAM
16:22:39 <hpc> yeah that'll do it
16:23:00 <lyxia> geekosaur: thanks, that works
16:23:02 <hpc> although, maybe upgrade it?
16:23:10 <lyxia> sounds like something I'm going to forget in a few months
16:23:10 <hpc> 1 gig isn't even enough to install centos anymore
16:23:22 <albet70> 1GB isn't enough to compile scotty
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16:25:01 <euouae> Hello, I have a question about the reader monad and monads in general. From what I know, a monad is an endofunctor so M : C -> C, and then we have a return with type :: a -> M a. But how does this include the reader monad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)#Environment_monad
16:25:21 <euouae> In the reader monad, there are two parameters for return; the value and the environment
16:25:28 <hpc> albet70: build your webapp somewhere else and copy it over maybe?
16:25:48 <hpc> with static linking you won't need scotty's libs on the vps at all
16:26:11 <euouae> I'm noticing that there is the following remark under Notes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)#cite_note-4 which says in CT they're called "strong monads" instead?
16:26:22 <euouae> is that the missing link?
16:27:17 <euouae> Because again strong monads seem to involve a single category C and I don't understand how multiple parameters of different types are incorporated into the theory
16:27:24 <lyxia> energizer: return :: a -> M a, if M a = (e -> a) then return :: a -> e -> a
16:27:35 <lyxia> I'm not sure what's the confusion here
16:27:44 <lyxia> euouae: ^
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16:28:53 <euouae> Oh, I didn't realize the hom functor is a monad!
16:29:14 <euouae> but later on, with the state monad we have `type State s t = s -> (t, s)`. Isn't `State` the monad?
16:29:32 <lyxia> `State s`
16:29:44 <euouae> So `State s` is the monad?
16:29:54 <lyxia> `State s` is a monad, yes.
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16:31:05 <euouae> That's because of how constructors curry?
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16:31:44 <lyxia> Can you define return :: a -> State s a ? bind :: State s a -> (a -> State s b) -> State s b ? Do they satisfy the monad laws?
16:32:44 <euouae> I'm just not understanding how to see it as M : C -> C. What's the category here?
16:33:12 <lyxia> Still the same category of types and functions
16:33:14 <euouae> If you parametrize State by `s` then I understand that C is Hask, and that's the objects `t` runs over
16:33:41 <euouae> But for `State` it looks more like C x C -> C
16:34:01 <lyxia> That's why I was careful to say `State s`
16:34:33 <euouae> The article states "From the category theory point of view, a state monad is derived from the adjunction between the product functor and the exponential functor, which exists in any cartesian closed category by definition. "
16:34:44 <euouae> Are they talking about `State` or `State s` here?
16:34:48 <lyxia> State s
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16:35:26 <euouae> " Due to the fact that functions on multiple free variables are common in programming, monads as described in this article are technically what category theorists would call strong monads."
16:35:46 <euouae> Don't they mean `State` is a strong monad (with two parameters s and t)?
16:35:54 <lyxia> It's the adjunction between `(s, ) : Type -> Type` and `(s -> ) : Type -> Type`, using Haskell's partially applied infix notation.
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16:36:40 <euouae> ah right. That's what product and exponential means since A -> B = B^A
16:36:55 <lyxia> I think you should skip over any mention of strong monads because that's irrelevant for this question.
16:37:33 <euouae> so when we talk about a monad M t1 t2 ... tn, we really mean that (M t1 t2 ... tn-1) is a monad?
16:38:00 <lyxia> Like, table it for after you can reliably say what "M" is when you look at a new monad.
16:38:32 <lyxia> Yeah that's usually the case
16:38:57 <lyxia> When we say monads in Haskell we usually refer to monads on Hask
16:39:34 <lyxia> That's exacly what the Monad class represents
16:40:03 <albet70> what is Kleisli arrow?
16:40:09 <euouae> got it, thank you lyxia
16:40:11 <lyxia> sometimes monads in other categories are relevant, and hopefully it will be mentioned explicitly, but it's useful being careful regardless
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16:52:02 <monochrom> No, I don't talk about a monad "Maybe X". I talk about a monad "Maybe".
16:52:40 <monochrom> Likewise, I don't talk about a function "f(x)". "f" is the function.
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16:54:22 <lyxia> I believe in getting people to do more math and they will learn to police their language themselves.
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16:59:02 <monochrom> No, this is not about policing. And I have had students who have appreciated that my clarifications helped them unstick and move forward.
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17:00:17 <euouae> monochrom, so you're saying that you'd say that `State s` is a monad, which clarifies what is a monad and what is the parameter.
17:00:28 <monochrom> Yes.
17:02:00 <euouae> unfortunately the paper I'm reading doesn't seem to follow that rule
17:02:48 <euouae> Or, I have not read it as carefully as I should? But I do understand what the convention is now that you mention it
17:03:33 <euouae> for example they call `M` a monad but then explain it is parametrized by some `t`, which I think is similar to `State` being parametrized by `s`
17:06:54 <monochrom> Oh, I say "the State monad" all the time, too. But only when I'm casually and to people who have already known. To beginners, I place consistency at a high priority.
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17:09:22 <euouae> yeah there's some in-the-know thing going on but I'm trying to break through :P thank you for the help
17:10:24 <lyxia> monochrom: that's a fair point!
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17:23:11 <euouae> lyxia that statement that (-> e) is a monad was quite tricky actually
17:23:19 <euouae> or sorry, (a ->)
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17:53:34 <sirlensalot> Anybody have an idea how to use lens to traverse/fold a rank-2 list to "take" or "drop" from it? E.g., given [[1::Int,2,3],[4,5]], I'd like a `take 4` operation that results in `[[1,2,3],[4]]`
17:54:00 <sirlensalot> I have an operational solution but I was hoping there'd be some IndexedTraversal magic
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17:58:54 <Taneb> I'm not aware of any lensy magic that lets you do that
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18:09:43 <xerox> as for not lensy if you write a take variant that also tells you how much it took it's pretty straightforward
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18:22:54 <Keriel> hi, I'm going through HPPFP at the moment and having trouble with the exercises at the end of ch 10 that want you to write a bunch of point-free folds. a lot of them have been ugly enough I think I'm doing something wrong, e.g. myElemF = flip foldr False . ((||) .) . (==) - but also I don't see how to do filter at all.
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18:23:25 <Keriel> I wanted to start with something like - flip foldr [] . bool (:) (flip const) . magic - but I need to somehow apply the test function to the list element and still have a copy of the list element to cons if needed, which I don't see how to do.
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18:30:14 <euouae> Keriel what do you mean by point-free style? So you want filter = expr, with no arguments involved, right?
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18:31:25 <euouae> wouldn't it be enough to write it pointful and then work from there to make it pointfree?
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18:33:01 <monochrom> filter will be a direct foldr, rather than a flip foldr.
18:34:15 <monochrom> In this case, the hard part is the pointfree form of what you give to foldr.
18:35:11 <monochrom> In this case, I wouldn't bother.
18:36:39 <monochrom> Some pointfree forms elucidate new perspectives, new structures, new beauty.
18:36:44 <monochrom> This is not one of them.
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18:45:48 <justsomeguy> Heh, I guess I did all of those exercises wrong.
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18:50:59 <Keriel> euouae: yeah. filter = expr, where expr also does not contain any lambdas (the latter being the hard part)
18:51:32 <Keriel> monochrom: hm, not flip? don't you need to flip since you don't know what the function is yet but you know what the base case is? or am I misunderstanding when you use flip? (but if you think it's not worth doing that's reasonable too)
18:52:11 <monochrom> How does flip have to do with base cases?
18:52:36 <tomsmeding> > (\p -> foldr (\x r -> if p x then x : r else r) []) (>3) [1..6]
18:52:38 <lambdabot> [4,5,6]
18:52:39 <monochrom> Every recursion has base cases. Are you saying therefore all recursive functions must use flip?
18:52:52 <tomsmeding> @pl \p -> foldr (\x r -> if p x then x : r else r) []
18:52:52 <lambdabot> flip foldr [] . flip flip id . (ap .) . (`ap` (:)) . (((.) . if') .)
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18:53:28 <Keriel> I'm not sure what ap is?
18:53:37 <tomsmeding> Good :p
18:54:02 <tomsmeding> It's <*>, but that knowledge is probably not helpful to you
18:54:18 <tomsmeding> Are you very sure they're asking to make filter without any lambdas anywhere?
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18:54:37 <tomsmeding> Because that's, well, that, and that is as monochrom not giving any insight
18:54:41 <Keriel> only in that someone elsewhere told me to use <*> earlier, so now I know I've gotten the same suggestion twice :P
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18:55:24 <Keriel> the example at the start of the exercise set starts with the comment "-- fold, both myAnd and the folding function are point-free now"
18:55:27 <EvanR> if you're trying to "golf" your arguments down to zero <*> is one of those things that can contribute
18:55:40 <Keriel> which I think makes it clear they don't want me to use lambdas in the folding function
18:55:47 <tomsmeding> Ah right
18:55:54 <EvanR> (f <*> g) x = f x (g x)
18:55:57 <Keriel> but it might be one of those exercise where they want you to realize you can't do it with the tools you have and move on
18:56:05 <EvanR> (for instance)
18:56:08 <tomsmeding> So you want 'filter p = foldr _ []' for some _
18:56:27 <tomsmeding> The above was 'filter = _'
18:56:28 <Keriel> well, that's not pointfree , right?
18:56:29 <EvanR> wait that's monads
18:57:21 <tomsmeding> Keriel: ... I guess, indeed
18:57:58 <tomsmeding> I mean, you're going to need a conditional somehow: you need to call the predicate on list elements to decide whether to include the element or not
18:58:13 <tomsmeding> And Prelude doesn't have a pointfree conditional
18:58:18 <monochrom> Some of us accept "map f = foldr ..." as pointfree. It is good enough to get rid of "xs".
18:58:34 <Keriel> they've shown us bool in an earlier chapter so I was using that
18:58:40 <tomsmeding> Lambdabot sneakily used if', assuming that's defined as if' a b c = if a then b else c
18:58:46 <tomsmeding> Ah yeah that's bool
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18:59:08 <tomsmeding> I have a suspicion that the book had monochrom's version in mind
18:59:10 <Keriel> also, monochrom: the reason I thought you had to use flip foldr was just that you know what the second argument to foldr will be - [] - before taking any of the arguments to filter, but not the first one?
18:59:28 <Keriel> but yeah. it seems like there isn't a real solution with what they've shown me so I should try to write it as filter f = ...
18:59:34 <lechner_> Hi, why does this module explicty import Prelude, please? https://github.com/nikita-volkov/hasql#short-example
18:59:36 <tomsmeding> Keriel: the @pl output started with 'flip foldr []' for precisely that reason
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19:00:09 <tomsmeding> @pl \x r -> if p x then x : r else r
19:00:09 <lambdabot> join . ap ((.) . if' . p) (:)
19:00:13 <tomsmeding> Meh
19:00:27 <Keriel> right, I've been doing flip foldr for a lot of these, I was replying to monochrom asking what flip has to do with base cases
19:00:37 <tomsmeding> :t flip
19:00:38 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
19:00:50 <tomsmeding> Flip just flips the arguments of a function
19:00:51 <monochrom> Generally when an argument is mentioned twice, it's already a nightmare. Here we have two arguments, both mentioned twice.
19:01:02 <Keriel> yeah I'm... not even immediately sure if I can do filter f = ...
19:01:36 <Keriel> they also want maximumBy and minimumBy which seem impossible for the same reason
19:02:01 <monochrom> I think those are easier and nicer.
19:02:04 <tomsmeding> :t let bool a b c = if a then b else c in \p -> foldr (join . ap ((.) . bool . p) (:)) -- this is the @pl output, but it's completely unreadable
19:02:05 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> t a -> [a]
19:02:35 <Keriel> I'll take a look at those then. are you thinking of maximumBy = _ or maximumBy f = _?
19:02:45 <monochrom> Yes.
19:03:11 <monochrom> Err, "maximumBy f = _".
19:03:32 <Keriel> hmm I guess I have to use head here?
19:04:10 <Keriel> or at least, I don't think the book has introduced foldr1 so I'm probably not meant to use it
19:04:12 <monochrom> Consider foldl1 or foldr1.
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19:08:44 <Keriel> well. the normal version would be myMaximumBy f = foldr1 (\x y -> bool y x (f x y == GT)) - also using foldr1 because yeah I can't see how to do it without that or ugly head stuff
19:09:34 <Keriel> but this seems to need something like the ap stuff being discussed above? I can do 'flip bool' to get the correct 'conditional', but then I no longer have x and y left to use for the comparison test. if that makes sense.
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19:10:40 <monochrom> Ah, that's difficult, yeah.
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19:12:11 <Keriel> I think I'm just going to assume I'm supposed to treat these as impossible to write pointfree and come back to it when I learn more tools
19:12:26 <Keriel> thanks for the help though ^^
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19:18:53 <lechner_> Hi, in a pinch is there a way, please, to makel libraries accessible to runhaskell without a local cabal file?
19:19:37 <lechner_> cabal install hasql says " Cannot build the executables"
19:19:51 <monochrom> No, but we know ways of "cabal run" and "cabal repl"
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19:22:00 <lechner_> should i use cabal repl instead?
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19:22:14 <EvanR> if you really can't figure out how to write something point free, consider how anyone's supposed to read it later xD
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19:22:36 <monochrom> I read it by putting the points back.
19:23:08 <monochrom> I mean in the ugly cases, of course.
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19:23:46 <EvanR> a combination of bool and (==GT) is screaming case analysis to me
19:24:13 <monochrom> "interact (unlines . map (show . solve . read) . lines)" is best read without putting the points back. It's a nice one.
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19:26:43 <EvanR> \x y -> case f x y of GT -> y; _ -> x
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19:30:07 <lechner_> Hi, rel8 requires base ^>=4.14 but Debian's ghc 8.8.4 only comes with base 4.13 (constraint from non-upgradeable package requires installed instance). can i upgrade ghc via cabal, too?
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19:32:43 <c_wraith> lechner_: you're best off completely uninstalling debian's ghc distribution and using ghcup to manage your installed ghc versions
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19:36:15 <lechner_> c_wraith: thanks!
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20:24:44 <lechner_> Hi, is it possible, in hasql, to use a more general connection string (for pg_service) or do i have to specify all the parameters with this separately? I can't figure out how to turn a strict bytestring into the "type Settings = ByteString" declared here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-1.4.5.3/docs/Hasql-Connection.html
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20:32:06 <lechner_> never mind, it worked!
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20:42:19 <euouae> Hello, what part of the monad definition makes monads appropriate for effectful computations?
20:43:09 <int-e> :t (>>=)
20:43:09 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
20:43:32 <euouae> is it the associativity of the join operator?
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20:43:45 <euouae> is join "running" the effects?
20:44:00 <int-e> this gives a nice way of sequencing effects one after another (where "sequencing" is really more syntactical than about the actual effects)
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20:44:07 <int-e> @src (>>=)
20:44:07 <lambdabot> Source not found. I am sorry.
20:44:14 <int-e> (just checking)
20:44:16 <Rembane> The runtime system takes care of executing the effects in IO.
20:44:22 <Rembane> IIRC
20:44:24 <euouae> How do you read that type and understand sequencing?
20:44:38 <euouae> what is an effect?
20:44:51 <int-e> :t join -- yes, join also sequences two effects; f >>= g = join (g <$> f) after all
20:44:52 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
20:45:01 <euouae> I guess `a -> m b` is a computation with an effect, right?
20:45:18 <int-e> what kind of "effect" you have depends on the monad
20:45:21 <Rembane> It doesn't have to. Take a look at Data.Maybe.
20:45:22 <euouae> and we already have an effect `m a`, so we can continue the chain of computation.
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20:45:47 <euouae> Rembane Oh yes, I do understand that. I'm just trying to understand that 1) a functor 2) the coherence laws -- why is /that/ the right tool for effects
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20:46:11 <int-e> IO is basically the only one with a *real* effect (launching missiles etc)
20:47:15 <dsal> You can think of ST as closer to State than IO and have a similar mental model. Might be a good bridge.
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20:47:50 <dsal> IO has no constrained effects, where State allows you to make arbitrary changes to a specific value. The ordering of those effects is important.
20:47:52 <monochrom> Mathematicians study monads in terms of join. But join is not very relatable to programmers. >>= is most relatable, Kleisli arrow is not bad either.
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20:48:27 <int-e> euouae: monads weren't made for effects... I think people studying effects noticed that they have a monadic structure.
20:49:13 <int-e> euouae: Which makes that kind of question fruitless (at least to my mind) because it's putting the cart before the horse.
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20:49:48 <euouae> perhaps my confusion is as to what is a formal definition for an effect
20:49:59 <monochrom> Heh we have none.
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20:50:49 <euouae> see, if I were any less wiser, I'd still be confused. But nay, I am now not confused anymore!
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20:51:50 <monochrom> BTW I know of a philosopher who opposes having a rigorous definition of "life" for its potential in stagnating biology. Part of the fun of biology is to leave it open so you can always challenge or expand the scope.
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20:52:19 <Rembane> euouae: here, have loads of examples: https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/marktoberdorf/baastad.pdf
20:52:21 <monochrom> And so I think it is a good thing we don't draw a hard line around "effect" either.
20:53:16 <euouae> Rembane nice, thank you!
20:53:21 <Rembane> euouae: No worries. :)
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20:53:55 <int-e> > [1,2,3] >>= \x -> [x..x*2] -- exercise, or possibly a topic for debate: what's the effect here?
20:53:57 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,3,4,3,4,5,6]
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20:54:10 <Rembane> monochrom: OTOH, we can draw a fuzzy line around the effect idea and put the data type IO on it.
20:54:25 <int-e> (the stock answer is "nondeterminism")
20:54:35 <EvanR> euouae, you go through many examples of effects and then maybe or maybe not you know what an effect is
20:55:07 <monochrom> Well yeah same for "data structure". We do have a consensus on a larger class of examples and a large class of counterexamples for both.
20:55:25 <monochrom> Same for "car", really.
20:55:36 <EvanR> examples often given first, modifying a state in a stateful computation, using an RNG (same thing really), throwing an exception to stop a computation early, outputting to a log during the computation
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20:55:43 <int-e> monochrom: contents of address register?
20:55:52 <monochrom> haha
20:55:59 <monochrom> That's a data structure!
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20:56:30 <dsal> Is "Reader monad" considered related to effects? That makes things blurry for me.
20:56:41 <EvanR> later on people start messing with you calling "non-termination" an effect, also CPS
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20:57:58 <int-e> dsal: it's the effect of living in an unchanging environment (or maybe a museum: you can look, but not touch)
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20:58:14 <int-e> (I'm not very serious about this)
20:58:18 <EvanR> that doesn't seem like a proper effect xD
20:58:25 <EvanR> it's a lack of effect
20:58:39 <Rembane> You can change it, but only one monter at the time, and when you leave scope it is restored.
20:58:57 <monochrom> If the answer depends on a hidden datum, that is a little bit effectful.
20:58:57 <EvanR> that's a weird feature of Reader specifically
20:59:33 <int-e> reader is fairly useless... except that it allows you to use generic monadic functions; it's a bit more useful as a transformer
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21:00:05 <monochrom> :(
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21:00:23 <monochrom> The hom functor is used all over the place!
21:00:24 <int-e> (but again for interacting well with monadic library interfaces, not for having an actual effect)
21:00:33 <monochrom> OK, but only as a functor, seldom as a monad.
21:01:05 <int-e> monochrom: that sounds suspiciously like category theory :P
21:01:40 <Rembane> When is Reader useful and why? I haven't run into a use for it yet so the question is honest.
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21:02:25 <euouae> code security?
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21:02:53 <euouae> if the type is Reader as opposed to Writer you know what the priviledges are just by looking at the type, useful for code review
21:03:08 <euouae> in some scenario, I could imagine that being helpful I suppose
21:03:46 <monochrom> The Yoneda lemma states that (∀x. Reader E -> F x) is in bijection with F E, and the bijection is natural in both E and F.
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21:04:06 <monochrom> err, (∀x. Reader E x -> F x)
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21:04:39 <monochrom> Aka the collection of natural transformations from Reader E to F.
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21:05:30 <EvanR> euouae, that would be true if local wasn't in the Reader API
21:05:47 <EvanR> so it's basically the same as using a function argument
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21:06:33 <EvanR> so is ReaderT
21:07:02 <int-e> The practical utility I've gotten out of ReaderT (the transformer) is that when I write code in mtl style... so newtype App a = App { runApp: WriterT w IO a } deriving (Monad) and then realize that I need to carry a configuration as well (from command line options), then I can add a ReaderT Config into the stack and most of the existing code that doesn't care about the configuration will...
21:07:08 <int-e> ...continue to work.
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21:08:15 <EvanR> if the code is already monadic style yeah
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21:08:26 <EvanR> er, do notation
21:08:40 <Rembane> int-e: That's very useful. I'm usually using StateT for that, but I'm not coding Haskell in a hm... production setting so I can change things very carelessly.
21:08:43 <int-e> EvanR: yeah. also having that newtype is quite important
21:08:55 <int-e> because that's how you abstract from the inner stack
21:09:33 <int-e> Which is why I wrote "mtl style"; it's really a particular coding style and you only benefit from ReaderT in this way when you're using it.
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21:11:44 <int-e> @pl \f g x -> f x (g x)
21:11:44 <lambdabot> ap
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21:12:10 <int-e> there's also this pointless use of the (->) r reader monad
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21:12:35 <int-e> Which I guess monochrom meant earlier. It's occasionally useful.
21:12:50 <int-e> > sequence [succ, pred] 1
21:12:52 <lambdabot> [2,0]
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21:13:04 <int-e> > map ($ 1) [succ, pred]
21:13:05 <lambdabot> [2,0]
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21:15:48 <Rembane> int-e: That's neat!
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21:18:04 <monochrom> Functor-Man: Hom Functing. Functor-Man: Far from Hom. Functor-Man: No Way Hom.
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21:25:36 <EvanR> is venom somehow contravariant functor man
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21:26:43 <monochrom> :)
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21:34:06 <lechner_> c_wraith: i built ghc for 8.10.7 for Debian bullseye and could make it available, if anyone needs it
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21:38:13 <lechner_> Hi, why does cabal force me to bump a prerequisite declaration on base to the installed version 4.14, please? What does the 'greater than' mean? http://paste.debian.net/1225513/
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21:40:17 <sclv> lechner_: the package you're trying to build has declared that it requires base ^>= 4.13.0.0
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21:40:42 <sclv> the carrot greater eaql means it requires base be somewhere between 4.13 and 4.14 but no higher
21:40:53 <lechner_> i see!
21:41:06 <lechner_> it always helps to know the docs
21:41:20 <lechner_> sorry i am a newbie, and hyperctive too
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21:44:30 <lechner_> sclv: sometimes i also forget to say, thank you!
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21:45:05 <sclv> no prob
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23:20:29 <kitzman> new haskeller here, mainly for giggles; what i'm currently trying to achieve: create a sum type, and a "class C a", and then create instances for each member of the sum type. however - I don't think A "S = A | B" is considered a type.. or is it?
23:21:35 <geekosaur> if you mean `data S = A | B`, S is a type and A and B are (data) constructors
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23:21:49 <geekosaur> not so different form `data Bool = False | True`
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23:22:34 <kitzman> I see, so I have to create separate types.
23:22:34 <geekosaur> I would alos question why you want a typeclass, but we'll address that when we get to it
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23:23:53 <kitzman> hmm, I'm thinking of creating, for example a "HealthService", which would have instances for each libvirt provider (qemu, xen, etc).
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23:24:09 <kitzman> i think it might be the wrong way to approach the problem, though
23:25:07 <kitzman> (i.e: "instance HealthService QemuProvider etc")
23:25:14 <geekosaur> that's not generally how we do things in Haskell
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23:25:49 <geekosaur> more likely it'd be data HealthService = Qemu whatever | Xen whatever | ...
23:26:15 <geekosaur> typeclasses are used when you have conceptually similar operations that do different things on different types
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23:27:09 <geekosaur> so for example we have `Functor`, which provides an operation `fmap`. What this actually does depends on the instance, but it is always conceptually mapping some operation over that type
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23:28:10 <geekosaur> for lists, fmap is map. for Maybe, if the value is Just something then fmap applies the operation to something and wraps it in another Just; it does nothing for Nothing
23:28:13 <geekosaur> and so on
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23:29:37 <geekosaur> there are times when this is appropriate for what you're describing, but usually they're not similar enough and when they are a simple record of functions is often preferable
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23:29:55 <geekosaur> (typeclasses are not OOP classes, in short)
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23:31:58 <kitzman> alright, i understand. i'll play a bit more with it. currently thinking of cases in which typeclasses would be more appropriate (so then I know when and when not to use them)
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23:32:26 <geekosaur> take a look at https://wiki.haskell.org/Typeclassopedia
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23:33:09 <geekosaur> it shows what the basic Haskell libraries do with typeclasses, which is a pretty good indication of what they're good for
23:33:10 <kitzman> i could have for example "class Persistable a" and then depending on a, choose how I can persist things
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23:33:16 <kitzman> nice, thank you
23:33:25 <kitzman> (couldn't come up with a better example yet)
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23:59:05 <EvanR> kitzman, what's the API for Persistable, curious

All times are in UTC on 2022-01-01.