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Logs on 2022-01-08 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:10 <lechner> sorry, got confused with Data.Versions
00:01:50 <lechner> thanks!
00:02:42 <sshine> I can see that both packages 'semver' and 'salve' address resolving version constraint expressions, like these: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/salve-1.0.11/docs/Salve.html -- I don't think that those constraint expressions are restricted to SemVer, but I guess that's another feature you'd wanna have in a semver library.
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00:05:20 <sshine> I'm not sure why they all defer from using Data.Version as their representation. :)
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00:06:23 <sshine> (since some of them explicitly allow for expressing messy version schemes, too.)
00:06:45 <lechner> Salve has a great summary of competing modules. thanks for that pointer!
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00:12:15 <[itchyjunk]> for my (+++) function, i can take existing list an add an element from the new list to it then apply (+++) to the remainder of the list
00:12:16 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/SC3A
00:12:23 <[itchyjunk]> This kinda made sense in my head
00:12:38 <[itchyjunk]> Is that the right approach but wrong syntax?
00:13:29 <[itchyjunk]> oh woops i see one error
00:13:45 <geekosaur> note that Cons appends to the left, not the right
00:14:01 <geekosaur> or said otherwise, prepends instead of appends
00:14:12 <[itchyjunk]> (https://bpa.st/DR5A
00:14:14 <[itchyjunk]> edited
00:14:56 <[itchyjunk]> I compiles but with a warning about redundant pattern match but i guess i will worry about it in a second if this works
00:15:35 <geekosaur> you need to move the `Nil Nil` case above the other two
00:15:59 <[itchyjunk]> Oh hmm
00:16:26 <geekosaur> otherwise one of those cases will match with `_` matching against Nil
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00:18:56 <[itchyjunk]> hmm _ Nil and Nil _ matches so Nil Nil ends up being a subset of one of those matches so it's considered redundent?
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00:21:37 <sub0> yes, it will never be reached
00:22:20 <[itchyjunk]> happy that the idea for (+++) (Cons y x) xy worked out! finally feels like i'm making some progress
00:22:23 <EvanR> an example where order of definitions matters
00:22:40 <sshine> you don't really need the 'Nil Nil = Nil' case, since 'x Nil' will be 'x', and 'Nil y' will be 'y', which are both general cases of 'Nil Nil = Nil' :)
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00:23:09 <[itchyjunk]> sshine, ah.. true
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00:24:31 <sshine> > (Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 Nil))) +++ (Cons 4 (Cons 5 (Cons 6 Nil)))
00:24:32 <sshine> Cons 6 (Cons 5 (Cons 4 (Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 Nil)))))
00:24:32 <lambdabot> error:
00:24:32 <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope: Cons :: t6 -> t0 -> a b c
00:24:32 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
00:25:00 <sshine> [itchyjunk], I'd probably have expected (Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 (Cons 4 (Cons 5 (Cons 6 Nil))))))
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00:26:48 <geekosaur> I pointed out that problem a bit earlier
00:26:58 <[itchyjunk]> hmmm
00:27:02 <[itchyjunk]> its a feature for now :x
00:27:06 <sshine> ;-)
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00:29:15 <sshine> [itchyjunk], (+++) (Cons x xs) ys = Cons x (xs +++ ys)
00:29:39 <[itchyjunk]> yup that's what i just tried!
00:30:07 <sshine> cool
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00:31:32 <[itchyjunk]> wait no, what did i do
00:34:48 <sshine> [itchyjunk], could also be written: (+++) (Cons x xs) ys = Cons x ((+++) xs ys)
00:36:05 <[itchyjunk]> i thought this would work but i am confused
00:36:06 <[itchyjunk]> (+++) (Cons x xs) ys = (+++) xs (Cons x ys)
00:36:14 <[itchyjunk]> take each element of first list and add it to the second list
00:37:35 <geekosaur> wrong order
00:37:42 <sshine> [itchyjunk], if you run it by hand it'll make sense
00:38:45 [itchyjunk] clears dusts off hand
00:38:50 <sshine> [itchyjunk], [1,2,3] ++ [4,5,6] ~> 1:([2,3] ++ [4,5,6]) etc.
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00:39:07 <[itchyjunk]> sshine, ah right
00:39:15 <sshine> [itchyjunk], the mixture of Cons and +++ might seem more confusing
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00:39:51 <[itchyjunk]> so (+++) (Cons x xs) ys = Cons x ((+++) xs ys)
00:40:44 <[itchyjunk]> okay, makes sense
00:41:17 <[itchyjunk]> ah thats what you said above
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00:42:14 <sshine> but... Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 Nil)) +++ Cons 4 (Cons 5 (Cons 6 Nil)) ~> Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 Nil) +++ Cons 4 (Cons 5 (Cons 6 Nil))) ~> Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 Nil +++ Cons 4 (Cons 5 (Cons 6 Nil)))) ~> Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 (Nil +++ Cons 4 (Cons 5 (Cons 6 Nil))))) ~> at which point you're in one of the base cases with Nil on the left.
00:42:31 <sshine> (this looks better with one rewrite per line)
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00:44:19 <sshine> [itchyjunk], btw, if you add {-# LANGUAGE DeriveFoldable #-}, you can add 'deriving (Show, Foldable)', after which a bunch of standard library list operators will work on your list.
00:45:01 <sshine> e.g. > 2 `elem` Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 Nil))
00:45:01 <sshine> True
00:45:09 <sshine> :t elem
00:45:09 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Eq a) => a -> t a -> Bool
00:45:22 <[itchyjunk]> right i learned about the `deriving Show`. I assume it's similar to the concept of inheretence or implementing a interface or somesuch
00:46:45 <sshine> or: > sum (Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 Nil)))
00:46:45 <sshine> 6
00:48:52 <sshine> it's kind of like automatically implementing an interface, yes
00:50:46 <sshine> I think one of the auto-generated traits/type-classes/interfaces you often see in a lot of languages are JSON serializers/de-serializers. so all you need is define a data-type, and many serialize/deserialize libraries can generically produce them based on type information on the data type's fields.
00:51:08 <sshine> and in haskell you can derive a lot of other type classes, too
00:51:30 <sshine> like Foldable and Functor :)
00:53:24 <geekosaur> you should probably do the third part of the problem before doing that, though
00:53:36 <sshine> what problem?
00:53:43 <geekosaur> although you just gave yourself a big hint as to how to do it, by doing this wrong
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00:54:19 <geekosaur> http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/~dalvescb/LH_Week05_Exercises.pdf
00:54:45 <[itchyjunk]> hmm
00:54:47 <geekosaur> they did part one earlier, this is part 2. part 3 is myReverse
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00:55:02 <sshine> oh, right :P
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00:55:12 <[itchyjunk]> yeah i am banging my head on the myReverse
00:55:14 <sshine> +++ done wrong is myReverse done half right, I guess :P
00:55:22 <geekosaur> yep
00:55:37 <geekosaur> go back and look how your proposed solution to (+++) went wrong
00:55:45 <geekosaur> then do the whole thing the same wrong way :)
00:55:53 <[itchyjunk]> oh should i be using (+++)? ahh i was thinking about it without +++
00:56:02 <geekosaur> no, you don't want (+++) here
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00:56:18 <geekosaur> but you reversed the first part of the list with the way you were mis-doing (+++)
00:56:34 <geekosaur> so think about what you did and why it reversed it, and you have the answer
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01:00:06 <geekosaur> and you may want to think about a helper function here
01:01:20 <sshine> [itchyjunk], if you start with: myReverse (Cons x xs) = ..., and you know that the last element should be the first, then putting the last element in '...' is kinda hard, because it's at the far end of the linked list.
01:03:25 <[itchyjunk]> i keeps comming and going from my head. it has something to do with creating a new list Nil and adding elements to it, first 1 then 2 then 3 etc so it would be 3 2 1 Nil or somesuch. but it keeps escaping me
01:03:41 <geekosaur> you're on the right track
01:03:47 <[itchyjunk]> hmmmmmm
01:03:50 <geekosaur> again, go look at what you did *wrong* earlier
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01:05:12 <sshine> [itchyjunk], if you do: myReverse (Cons x xs) = let theEnd = Cons x Nil in ..., then you did add x to Nil where it belongs, but it isn't very recursive. i.e., when you make a call to 'myReverse xs' to reverse the tail, where do you put 'theEnd'?
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01:06:32 <sshine> [itchyjunk], surely you can't add x on the second iteration to Nil also; then you'll have a bunch of 'Cons <x/y/z> Nil' cells that aren't linked.
01:09:05 <sshine> [itchyjunk], what if the function had the type myReverse' :: ItchyList a -> ItchyList a -> ItchyList a -> ItchyList a? so: myReverse' xs ys tmp; could you make use of a placeholder between recursions?
01:09:16 <sshine> err
01:09:19 <sshine> I'm tired
01:09:31 <sshine> [itchyjunk], what if the function had the type myReverse' :: ItchyList a -> ItchyList a -> ItchyList a? so: myReverse' xs tmp; could you make use of a placeholder between recursions?
01:10:39 <[itchyjunk]> oh a helper function that uses a temporary type to help reverse?
01:10:47 <sshine> a temporary argument yes
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01:19:16 <[itchyjunk]> hmm i was hoping this would work
01:19:17 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/D2LQ
01:19:27 <[itchyjunk]> but seems like i have some logical error somewhere
01:19:55 <[itchyjunk]> oh i see the bug
01:20:21 <sshine> what's the bug?
01:20:31 <[itchyjunk]> helper Nil _ = Nil
01:20:42 <sub0> no
01:20:43 <sshine> what's the problem there?
01:20:47 <[itchyjunk]> so when the recursion turns my first list to Nil, it turns the whole thing into Nil
01:20:57 <sshine> yeah, it reverses the entire list, then throws it out at the end. :D
01:20:59 <sub0> yes (my mistake, I thought that was your solution, not bug)
01:21:18 <[itchyjunk]> well sometimes my solution and bugs are equivalent
01:21:44 <sshine> so it's true that the reverse of Nil is Nil.
01:21:49 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/LJLQ
01:21:53 <[itchyjunk]> This seems to work, right?
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01:22:20 <sshine> but your base case of 'helper Nil ys' is used for two things now: both for reversing the empty list, and for terminating the recursion on non-empty lists.
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01:22:50 <sshine> [itchyjunk], you don't actually need 'myHelper Nil = Nil'. this is a special case of helper.
01:23:07 <glguy> [itchyjunk]: yes, that looks to have fixed it
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01:23:31 <[itchyjunk]> sshine, oh myReverse Nil = Nil is redundent because of how the helper behaves?
01:23:48 <sub0> yes, it handles the Nil case
01:23:51 <glguy> [itchyjunk]: you also have some redundancy in (+++)
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01:24:16 <[itchyjunk]> yeah having hard time seeing all the redundancy but hopefully it's something that becomes more obvious over time
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01:24:32 <sshine> [itchyjunk], myReverse Nil ~> helper Nil Nil ~> Nil (with ys = Nil)
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01:24:37 <sub0> [itchyjunk], it is also common to make the helper function a local function named go, ie, myReverse xs = go xs [] where go ...
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01:25:25 <glguy> though it's nice, especially while learning or debugging, to keep the definition at the top-level so you can experiment with it in ghci
01:25:28 <[itchyjunk]> oh right, implicit recursion and local functions stuff is another thing i need to work on
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01:26:13 <sshine> [itchyjunk], https://bpa.st/SPXA
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01:26:45 <sshine> [itchyjunk], also, if you derive Foldable, 'myReverse = foldl (flip Cons) Nil' :D
01:27:21 <[itchyjunk]> oh you can do a full fledged definition right there? didn't realize
01:27:47 <sshine> [itchyjunk], yep, 'myReverse xs = ...' is just syntax sugar for 'myReverse = \xs -> ...'
01:28:00 <glguy> [itchyjunk]: something that might surprise you is that the 'a's on line 16 and line 20 are different in that paste
01:28:28 <glguy> the fact that it's a local definition doesn't make them more connected than if they were both top-level definitions
01:28:33 <sshine> glguy, that statement sounds obviously true for the wrong reason :P
01:28:38 <[itchyjunk]> hmmm
01:29:01 <sshine> [itchyjunk], so if you change the ItchyList a -> ItchyList a
01:29:01 <sub0> they are connected in the sense that local helper function can directly access myReverse's arguments
01:29:23 <sshine> [itchyjunk], if you change the 'ItchyList a -> ItchyList a' into 'ItchyList b -> ItchyList b', then you can keep the 'a's around on line 20.
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01:30:03 <glguy> the fact that type variables are locally scoped to a type signature even in a nested context is just surprising to most people and can make for confusing error messages later
01:30:22 <sshine> glguy, that's a good point.
01:30:59 <sshine> [itchyjunk], I made a lazy choice of not renaming 'myReverse x = helper x Nil' into 'myReverse z = helper z Nil' to avoid shadowing variable names. the outer 'x' is not the same as the inner 'x'.
01:34:03 <sshine> [itchyjunk], are you doing trees now?
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01:35:03 <glguy> Is there a specific problemset?
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01:35:22 <[itchyjunk]> I haven't started on it. idk if i am ready for trees
01:35:24 <sshine> 18:58:47 <[itchyjunk]> the full problem is here :http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/~dalvescb/LH_Week05_Exercises.pdf
01:35:36 <[itchyjunk]> i stumbled upon this googling `haskell zip exercise`
01:35:36 <sshine> [itchyjunk], lists are just very right-biased trees.
01:35:42 <[itchyjunk]> :D
01:36:05 <[itchyjunk]> right, ive heard of that.. graphs are somethign i need to eventually learn but seems a bit intimidating
01:36:11 <sshine> you've been doing trees all along 🤯
01:37:23 <glguy> This binary tree problem kind of leaves it to you to decide what a binary tree is, I guess.
01:38:01 <sshine> data UnaryTree a = Leaf | Branch a (UnaryTree a)
01:38:56 <[itchyjunk]> thats almost identical to my list
01:39:09 <glguy> what's the difference?
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01:39:17 <[itchyjunk]> hmm
01:39:38 <[itchyjunk]> thats identical to my list
01:40:14 <sshine> then lists must be unary trees, according to my definition.
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01:40:47 <EvanR> if you can inductively define a graph you can inductively define anything, like chuck norris
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01:41:06 <glguy> You wouldn't inductively define a car
01:42:01 <sshine> data ChuckNorris = Chuck ChuckNorris | Norris -- how much Chuck would a ChuckNorris Chuck if a ChuckNorris could Chuck (Chuck (Chuck ...))
01:42:23 EvanR chucks Norris
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01:44:45 <sshine> [itchyjunk], data ConcatList a = Nil | Single a | Concat (ConcatList a) (ConcatList a)
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01:45:11 <sshine> [itchyjunk], this is not a tree, because it says it's a list.
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01:47:11 <EvanR> data ThisIsNotAType
01:47:38 <EvanR> coincidentally, it is false (Void)
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01:48:52 <sshine> [itchyjunk], are you doing take/drop instead??
01:49:13 <[itchyjunk]> no, not doing anything as of yet :D
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01:57:48 <sshine> [itchyjunk], if you feel like tree exercises are too daunting, you can also do these list exercises: https://gist.github.com/sshine/1c909e27149dfd6081e99ef39cb3a7e1 :p
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01:59:17 <[itchyjunk]> hmm
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02:50:19 <BrokenClutch> Man, I want to die. Is this shit too bad: https://gitlab.com/UnrelatedMicrowave/stm-test
02:50:24 <BrokenClutch> Am I on the right way?
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02:53:28 <EvanR> that's one way to do it
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02:56:32 <BrokenClutch> This shit gave me a headache, gonna play vidjo gemes
02:56:37 <EvanR> I would ask what you're really trying to do, but I know that you're actually trying to make a game invol&
02:56:49 <EvanR> involving event handling, so
02:57:05 <EvanR> I got nothing
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03:07:50 <monochrom> For me it's video games (I mean as a player! not as a dev) and learning more math.
03:08:13 <monochrom> Programming is too hard! Playing AOE4 and learning math are easier.
03:13:35 <[itchyjunk]> I'm learning some Halo Infinite currently.
03:13:57 <[itchyjunk]> Their ranking system is totally busted though. Surprised multi 100 million games can't have a decent ranking system
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03:15:46 <EvanR> no money left after spending it on army of developers
03:16:19 <[itchyjunk]> No idea what the spent it on. Has 5 maps, they released campaign seperately
03:16:20 <EvanR> have to get ranking system from the bargain bin
03:16:33 <[itchyjunk]> They are paying streamers on twitch a lot of money and they are releasing non stop skins
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03:19:33 <EvanR> 🤑
03:20:03 <EvanR> (hint ranking system not required for 🤑), anyway, back to haskell!!!!!!
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04:17:11 <EvanR> newtype Foo = Foo (Vector Bar) deriving Foldable
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04:19:04 <EvanR> err. newtype Foo a = Foo (Vector Int) deriving Foldable
04:19:29 <EvanR> length (Foo (V.fromList [1,2,3,4])), is zero not 4...
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04:41:40 <texasmynsted> I am looking for a library or something like Gema, http://gema.sourceforge.net/new/Mundie/WhyILoveGema.html, for Haskell. A declarative language to assemble text.
04:41:50 <texasmynsted> I am not sure what to call this.
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05:06:08 <pagnol> There's a Rust crate called sqlx which provides a macro that validates SQL by sending it to a running dbms at compile time. Does anyone know if this has been done for Haskell somewhere?
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05:06:58 <pagnol> (it also adds type safety in addition to validating)
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05:12:51 <Inst> i hope you guys don't mind if I troll?
05:13:01 <Inst> dialogedFileOpen :: IO (Maybe Handle)
05:13:01 <Inst> dialogedFileOpen = sequence ( sequence (openFilePath >>= \iOremoved -> pure (iOremoved >>= \filePath -> pure (openFile filePath ReadMode))) >>= \mIOIOH -> pure (join mIOIOH))
05:13:10 <Inst> which typechecks
05:13:22 <Inst> dialogedFileOpenbradrnSanity :: IO (Maybe (IOMode -> IO Handle))
05:13:22 <Inst> dialogedFileOpenbradrnSanity = (fmap (fmap openFile) openFilePath)
05:13:39 <Inst> openFilePath is IO (Maybe String)
05:13:53 <Inst> ReadMode is a data constructor of type IOMode
05:16:29 <Inst> it's a troll, because this isn't any code of any importance, just me hacking through insane and improbable haskell situations that shouldn't occur with proper design patterns
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05:30:09 <EvanR> as one does
05:38:28 <Inst> okay
05:38:31 <Inst> got a working version
05:39:10 <Inst> dialogedFileOpen = join (fmap sequence ((fmap.fmap) (rapply ReadMode) ((fmap.fmap) openFile openFilePath)))
05:39:28 <Inst> rapply y p = p y
05:39:43 <Inst> do you know if there's an actual built-in / standard way for haskell to force function application to the left?
05:40:49 <EvanR> there is a standardish operator to do function application backwards
05:40:55 <Inst> oh
05:40:56 <Inst> &
05:40:58 <EvanR> but it's more idiomatic to do it the right way
05:41:10 <Inst> are you sure monad transformers work on the IO type?
05:41:12 <EvanR> =<< helps with that in monadic code
05:42:04 <EvanR> <=< if you're ultimately pointless
05:42:29 <EvanR> kleisli fish
05:43:24 <EvanR> :k StateT Char IO Int
05:43:25 <lambdabot> *
05:43:33 <EvanR> @botsnack
05:43:33 <lambdabot> :)
05:43:47 <Inst> @botsnack
05:43:47 <lambdabot> :)
05:44:04 <Inst> is there any point to what I'm doing?
05:44:12 <Inst> I feel like, I'm spending lots of energy and having fun
05:44:28 <Inst> but the techniques i'm learning (badly coded Haskell, etc) aren't really useful, I'm told there's a dozen other methods
05:44:33 <EvanR> if your energy budget is limited I recommend moving on the things that are even more fun
05:44:56 <Inst> well, i mean, trying to work with monad stacks without the benefit of monad transformers
05:44:58 <EvanR> as useful and business friendly as file dialogs are
05:45:04 <Inst> is there any moral benefit to such?
05:45:37 <EvanR> no if you really do have a "monad stack" (uhg), then you should use transformers, or a consolidated free monad or something
05:46:18 <EvanR> alternatively just use IO for top level I/O and do most things in pure code
05:46:23 <Inst> it's more of a teaching exercise for me, though, because i'm learning how to work with the type system
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05:47:28 <EvanR> a given application may not need a "monad stack" at all
05:47:55 <Inst> you know i have very patchwork knowledge
05:48:09 <Inst> i have very little practice with >>= and do, and this is helping me understand them better
05:48:19 <Inst> that's what i mean by teaching exercise, i.e, maybe was revolting against me
05:48:38 <Inst> until i realized you needed to stuff pures with dissimilar stacked monads
05:49:18 <Inst> it's just a fun educational game for teaching myself (and perhaps others) about types
05:49:21 <EvanR> most of the cool stuff in haskell has nothing to do with monads
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05:50:34 <Inst> i see
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06:22:06 <maerwald[m]> Monads aren't even that cool
06:23:56 <Inst> sorry
06:24:02 <Inst> went out to get some cigarettes
06:24:26 <Inst> i'll try to explain my perspective
06:24:39 <Inst> i started trying to learn haskell, took up a service-sector job to pay the bills around the same time, in october
06:24:44 <Inst> i've since quit that job since early december
06:24:59 <Inst> in learning haskell, it's been the language that clicked for me, to the extent that i don't understand why people claim it's so difficult
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06:26:26 <Inst> one of the things i noticed with haskell is, well, the absence of the typical imperative programming canards, like loops (recursion's an analogue or a superset)
06:27:44 <EvanR> good riddance, for the most part
06:27:53 <Inst> i have a hypothesis that it's possible to teach IO, and I don't mean hello world IO, but rather, being able to drag data from files and write to files etc, interact with network files, and so on
06:27:59 <Inst> I'm addicted to accumulators, though, EvanR
06:28:14 <Square> can you define reusable "dependency-sets" in cabal?
06:28:15 <EvanR> that's a fold
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06:29:03 <Inst> you're sure it's just a fold?
06:29:22 <Inst> i feel a bit guilty using accumulators, like, it feels too much like i'm simulating variables
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06:29:25 <EvanR> if you get into the weeds everything is a fold
06:29:27 <Inst> per recursive loop
06:30:01 <Inst> i have a friend who ran out of me after I insisted that she learn Haskell
06:30:12 <Inst> as a first language, she went to pick up Python
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06:30:31 <Inst> I think it might be possible to, while the Pythonista kids are learning loops, teach Haskellers how to read / write / do effects
06:30:41 <Inst> and that might end up being good for long-term retention
06:31:01 <EvanR> that's sounds relatively more boring than loops in python
06:31:04 <Inst> the obsession with monads is that I feel like being able to function in IO-land / do-land requires an understanding
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06:31:19 <Inst> EvanR: it's a matter of perspective, Haskell is very academic
06:31:21 <EvanR> maybe a total wash at best
06:31:24 <Inst> i see
06:31:51 <Inst> being able to do practical things with haskell early, and use how to manipulate the data you draw it from file system access
06:32:18 <Inst> at least in my hypothesis, might be usable as stakes to teach people why functional programming matters, etc
06:32:39 <EvanR> I hear the `shelly' package is good for that kind of stuff
06:32:47 <Inst> huh, interesting
06:33:46 <Inst> EvanR: what do your students engage with?
06:33:59 <EvanR> why functional programming matters, the title of an influential paper from 1990, and it's not talking about file system access xD
06:34:03 <Inst> I know
06:34:24 <Inst> but if you teach Haskell to non-programmers, as is my aim
06:34:36 <Inst> they don't really care about correctness, ease of reasoning, etc
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06:35:02 <Inst> they'd be more impressed by actually being able to do practical things
06:35:19 <Inst> there's reports from people that "Haskell is the best imperative language" because of the concision of Haskell syntax
06:35:25 <maerwald> Inst: Haskell is not about correctness
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06:36:01 <Inst> https://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/dat/miranda/whyfp90.pdf
06:36:15 <EvanR> lets not dwell on "Haskell is the best imperative language", the value proposition of this statement is already off to a bad start
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06:37:26 <EvanR> who wants to be the best at something awful xD
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06:38:05 <EvanR> hotdog eating contests notwithstanding
06:38:28 <Inst> i'm not a functional fundamentalist, i.e, because computers are ultimately turing machines, until SPJ pulls a couple of more rabbits out of his hat, functional programming will be more resource intensive and less performant than imperative programming
06:38:51 <Inst> that means that imperative programming will always have a place, for applications where performance is paramount
06:39:26 <EvanR> I'm not either, and I don't know if I agree with that
06:40:16 <Inst> well i'm saying we might be able to get out of the imperative trap eventually, but as long as we're stuck here, imperative will exist, just as much as there's assembly programmers, C programmers, Rust programmers, etc
06:40:22 <EvanR> high end hardware is already hard to write code for directly in a way to makes the most use
06:40:38 <Inst> for the non-programmer, though
06:40:50 <EvanR> people use C++, and it's imperative
06:40:59 <Inst> i mean, i think functional programmers and imperative programmers tend toward different intelligence types
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06:41:08 <EvanR> I'm not sure if there's a causal reason for this anymore though
06:41:16 <Inst> causal reason for what?
06:41:58 <Inst> mentally keeping track of state is hard and requires strong working memories
06:42:01 <EvanR> that C++ technology is where all the work went so you have a chance of utilizing your hardware's capability
06:42:17 <EvanR> it's probably more inertia than anything
06:42:25 <Inst> yeah, ecosystem effects
06:42:45 <EvanR> On the GPU, an imperative programming language doesn't really get you much
06:43:01 <maerwald> I think looking at functional vs imperative as correctness vs performance is totally wrong
06:43:02 <Inst> i'm guessing it's because of the massive parallelism
06:43:13 <Inst> maintainability, ease of composition, ease of design, etc
06:43:23 <Inst> the only real advantage i think with imperative is performance
06:43:33 <EvanR> GPU programmers are thinking in a different paradigm these days, and forced to code it through imperative languages
06:43:36 <Inst> if we all had infinitely fast computers we'd all be on functional programming
06:43:47 <maerwald> imperative languages are still the strongest in terms of tooling, support, etc. when it comes to formal verification
06:44:33 <EvanR> Inst, you should learn some functional programming
06:44:40 <EvanR> IMO lol
06:44:40 <Inst> as in, what?
06:45:10 <Inst> recursion, higher order functions, etc
06:45:12 <EvanR> haskell is just the jumping off point, there is much to learn beyond haskell's version of FP
06:45:22 <Inst> I know a bunch of people aggressively selling OCaml
06:45:30 <Inst> I am in the market for SICP
06:45:34 <EvanR> the industry is stuck in a valley, haskell is up on a hill, and then there's the rest of the world
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06:46:10 <Inst> SICP being the 1998 version, not the Javascript version
06:46:12 <EvanR> haskell stuff really pushes you to learn that
06:46:15 <Inst> can't believe MIT jumped off to Python?
06:46:28 <maerwald> EvanR: and then there's people for whom the hill is not enough and they're building a ladder into the sky (most programmers will fall off that ladder)
06:47:17 <EvanR> ivory tower of babel?
06:47:25 <maerwald> dependent haskell
06:47:27 <Inst> maerwald: are you talking Shen?
06:47:32 <EvanR> lol shen
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06:47:59 <maerwald> but if we're lucky, dependent haskell will be a success story similar to backpack
06:48:19 <Inst> backpack?
06:48:25 <maerwald> exactly
06:48:29 <int-e> maerwald: hah
06:48:48 <Inst> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/2535838.2535884
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06:49:23 <EvanR> maerwald, well, we're probably considering different kind of programmers
06:49:30 <EvanR> different kinds
06:50:13 <EvanR> I'm not expecting anyone who ended up as a programmer due to being bad analytically to start using dependent types
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06:51:28 <Inst> erm, do you mind if I ask a final question?
06:51:31 <maerwald> EvanR: I'm worried about programmers who are good analytically
06:51:45 <maerwald> writing code for their ego, not for users
06:51:49 <EvanR> the ones pushing dependent types? xD
06:52:29 <int-e> maerwald: user data is just protocol overhead
06:53:51 <Inst> well, if you're willing to humor me
06:53:55 <Inst> basically, in terms of style guidelines
06:54:11 <Inst> i'm working with the notion that main should be as sparse as possible, i.e, a hub of hubs (or of hubs of hubs of hubs and so on)
06:54:24 <Inst> IO-land functions should do no more than 5 things at a time
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06:54:46 <Inst> erm, IO-land functions should be divided into hub and spoke functions, the former of which are limited to 5 things at a time, and the latter 1-2 things
06:55:02 <Inst> i'm not sure if that's a wise way to structure things, or are there other guidelines?
06:55:11 <Inst> for pure functions, I have a problem where I write really long pipes
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06:55:29 <EvanR> is that from structured programming or something
06:55:32 <Inst> how long should a pipe be before I look into ways to truncate it?
06:55:42 <Inst> I don't know structured programming, it's what I came up with off the top of my head
06:55:55 <Inst> I ran off to functional programming because I didn't have the working memory to understand imperative programming code
06:56:27 <EvanR> you'll get better at style after writing a lot of code and having people take it apart
06:56:49 <Inst> i probably have a cognitive defect wherein long vertical lists make me sick, but transcontinental pipelines are fine
06:56:50 <EvanR> as opposed to attempts to over prescribe style ahead of time
06:57:09 <Inst> thanks
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06:58:50 <Inst> what did you mean, btw, by the more interesting parts of haskell?
06:58:53 <Inst> like the type system?
07:00:24 <EvanR> maybe you can get an idea by doing some exercises or advent of code in haskell
07:00:36 <Inst> i've done my share, I have a workstation computer
07:00:47 <Inst> that should have been sent back to the shop
07:00:59 <Inst> it's still waiting on me to finish the IO-land exercises in one textbook
07:01:24 <Inst> then that book is finished, also working on exercises in Hutton's
07:02:06 <Inst> Get Programming with Haskell apparently has some really nice projects, 42 of them
07:02:15 <Inst> just picked it up
07:02:27 <EvanR> ... maybe not
07:02:42 <EvanR> move on to real projects
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10:11:15 <Square> what is the goto logging library 2022? katip? Hslogger?
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10:14:48 <[exa]> for extra 2022 vibes try unsafePerformLogging
10:15:35 <[exa]> other than that depends on how complex your logs should be (syslog? multiple files? topics&severities?)
10:17:13 <[exa]> btw `logging` isn't that bad either
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10:41:53 <maerwald[m]> Square: none
10:42:02 <maerwald[m]> Hand roll it
10:42:07 <maerwald[m]> Logging isn't hard
10:42:20 <Square> say that to the log4j folks
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10:44:19 <Square> Also logging is boring, so i prefer spending least amount of time on it. =D
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11:32:52 <matrox> hi. do you use c2hs to generate C bindings? does it work with stack? I used something similar several years ago, and it worked nicely, but then when I switched to stack it stopped working
11:32:56 <matrox> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/c2hs
11:33:54 <geekosaur> c2hs should work with stack but may be broken with newer versions of gcc and headers installed with or to work with it
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11:35:51 <geekosaur> if you're seeing "The symbol <whatever> does not fit here" it's probably that
11:37:09 <geekosaur> looks like the gcc one has been fixed upstream but I don't know if it's made a release yet
11:39:16 <geekosaur> there are also a few new ones still open including one against clang/macos
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11:50:39 <matrox> geekosaur, so it is still broken, just in a different way? that's too bad. seems like tools c2hs can't help but be fragile
11:51:36 <geekosaur> in this case, yes. it's not at all uncommon that vendors make changes to internal #include files that are not intended to be seen by users, but a tool like c2hs will see them and break
11:52:13 <geekosaur> hsc2hs is insulated from that kind of change but is of course less capable
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11:52:46 <matrox> oh, I believe that is what I used several years ago, and then for some reason, it wouldn't work with stack. or I didn't know how to make it work
11:53:07 <geekosaur> afaik stack should have no problem with it
11:53:26 <geekosaur> would need to be declared as a build tool but cabal requires that too
11:53:56 <geekosaur> it's just by its nature rather more fragile than alternatives
11:54:31 <geekosaur> (come to think of it I thought the fpcomplete folks used it with inline-c, so I'd expect stack to work well with it)
11:57:17 <geekosaur> mm, hackage claims not, guess I'm wrong
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12:08:34 <matrox> too bad. it is such a pain to write C bindings by hand, and error prone too (especially if, for example, struct size can vary). so I often end up writing code that uses C library extensively in C or C++, even though I'd prefer to write it in haskell
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14:53:12 <[itchyjunk]> wahaha
14:53:13 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/LWBA
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14:56:34 <[exa]> [itchyjunk]: go == (+) . (^2)
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14:56:46 <int-e> dubious
14:56:57 <[itchyjunk]> hmmmm i should really learn function composition
14:57:05 <int-e> (should be a left fold :P)
14:57:09 <[itchyjunk]> you're just saying compose + with ^2 right?
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14:57:21 <[exa]> [itchyjunk]: or send a @pl to lambdabot :D :D
14:57:28 <geekosaur> function composition is one thing,, pointfree is … a readability tarpit
14:57:50 <geekosaur> I'd say ignore that for now
14:57:52 <int-e> also I'd use sum . map for this 99% of the time
14:57:52 <[exa]> +1 for foldl' though
14:57:54 <[itchyjunk]> ah great!
14:58:07 <[itchyjunk]> it says don't use map
14:58:23 <int-e> [itchyjunk]: Yeah I've seen that you're required to use foldr
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14:58:37 <int-e> So take it as a complaint about the problem not your code :P
14:58:51 <[itchyjunk]> i used map to check the solution instead
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14:59:07 <[itchyjunk]> the foldr and foldl difference is eventually going to get me
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14:59:22 <[itchyjunk]> i had nicely forgotten about - operator and it not being associative
14:59:26 <int-e> the same is true for wanting this to be a (strict, indeed) left fold
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15:10:10 <[itchyjunk]> call me crazy but it works :D
15:10:11 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/B3QA
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15:11:13 <geekosaur> not how I'd do it
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15:12:03 <[itchyjunk]> you'ed use helper function instead of map?
15:13:01 <[exa]> why the zero case?
15:13:52 <[itchyjunk]> hmm
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15:14:34 <[itchyjunk]> ah i guess map takes care of the empty list case so it would be redundent?
15:14:51 <geekosaur> the fold does since it'd just return the 0
15:15:07 <[itchyjunk]> ahh
15:15:29 <geekosaur> > foldr f z []
15:15:31 <lambdabot> z
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15:21:20 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/PYMA
15:21:30 <[itchyjunk]> I did the foldl differently using a helper
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15:22:22 <geekosaur> that's closer to how I'd do it. have they taught you about lambdas yet?
15:22:54 <[itchyjunk]> no. this isn't for a class :x i am grabbing random google exercises
15:23:10 <[itchyjunk]> but i know \x->x thingy from looking at random things
15:24:00 <geekosaur> so in place of such a simple "go" I'd just ise \x y -> x + 1
15:24:18 <geekosaur> pr replace the y with _ since I'm not using it
15:25:13 <[itchyjunk]> oh neat!
15:25:21 <bjs> or just (+ 1)
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15:26:16 <geekosaur> not quite since you need to discard the other one
15:26:19 <bjs> [itchyjunk]: I'd write `\_ x -> x + 1` here
15:26:43 <geekosaur> you can pointfree it with that and const, but meh
15:26:55 <[itchyjunk]> hm what did pointfree mean?
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15:27:08 <bjs> [itchyjunk]: you can `const (+ 1)` or `\_ -> (+ 1)`
15:27:11 <bjs> then you don't mention "x"
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15:28:07 <[itchyjunk]> /o\
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15:28:37 <bjs> some people call it a "pointless" style because they're funny people :)
15:28:43 <geekosaur> that was also what we were discussing before with [08 14:56:34] <[exa]> [itchyjunk]: go == (+) . (^2)
15:29:05 <geekosaur> and I'm meh on it because of readability especially for beginners
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15:30:06 <[itchyjunk]> ahh
15:30:24 <[itchyjunk]> i thought the point was referring to the . point
15:30:42 <geekosaur> a point is a variable, essentiallyy
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15:31:36 <[itchyjunk]> ah
15:32:02 <geekosaur> @pl \x y -> x + 1
15:32:02 <lambdabot> const . (1 +)
15:32:19 <geekosaur> I don't exactly recommend that
15:33:15 <geekosaur> it's the sort of thing you come back 6 months later and wonder wtf you were drinking at the time
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15:33:47 <bjs> I quite like point-free things, it really emphasises the declarative nature of things
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15:34:50 [exa] sees scrollback
15:35:00 [exa] . o O ( what have I opened )
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15:36:15 <lechner> it might be a littleclearer if point free did not involve dots!
15:36:31 <geekosaur> maybe I spent too much time trying to wrap my head around APL way back when™ but I'm less than impressed with pointfree style
15:36:49 <razetime> pointfree is nice in APL for describing short things.
15:37:15 <razetime> the problem was when they decided the everything should be pointfree in J(and then later realizing why that was bad)
15:37:30 <geekosaur> oh, that attitude predated J
15:37:47 <geekosaur> pretty much everything in APL was pointfree too
15:38:04 <razetime> I don't think so?
15:38:21 <geekosaur> maybe it was just the training materials I had on hand
15:38:34 <razetime> From what I know, J got trains first, which was later added to Dyalog APL and others
15:38:37 <geekosaur> they pointfree-d anything they could. granting that was less than in J
15:39:17 <geekosaur> but they made a big deal of it
15:39:47 <lechner> is "tacit" style a clearer term? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programming
15:40:12 <razetime> yes, tacit is the term used in general. In APL/J/K these are called trains.
15:40:37 <lechner> that page also calls it "pointless", with an undertone
15:41:13 <hpc> lambdabot's @pl command is a nod to "pointless" as well
15:41:23 <lechner> i see
15:41:28 <razetime> after about 10 symbols i usually just switch to a lambda.
15:41:42 <razetime> (⊢∘≢≥∘⍋⊢∘⍳∘≢,⊣) is relatively readable once you know train rules.
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15:49:37 <lechner> naming things is one of the great privileges of language, and can make code easier to read, if less terse
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15:53:28 <lechner> Hi, when encoding JSON with aeson and saving it as a file, who converts it to UTF-8 please? When injecting JSON into a Hasql.TH statement via Pg's 'json_populate_recordset', will the data get encoded twice?
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15:54:41 <geekosaur> the I/O layer does, see hSetEncoding
15:55:00 <lechner> so it's late in the process
15:55:02 <geekosaur> I couldn't tell you about what in Hasql does it
15:55:07 <lechner> as it should be
15:55:12 <geekosaur> yes
15:56:32 <lechner> that mean aeson doesn't convert it, right?
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15:57:35 <lechner> or encode it, to be exact
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15:58:23 <geekosaur> that I don't know. although if aeson gives you a String it should not be encoded
15:58:35 <geekosaur> if it's a Text then it may be (see text 2.0)
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15:59:09 <lechner> that's only internal though, isn't it?
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15:59:28 <lechner> externally Text still represents code points?
15:59:28 <Clint> the question is how you're saving it to a file
16:00:01 <geekosaur> I think they're sending it to a database. that *should* be a binary protocol
16:00:01 <Clint> because it's the f.ex. String/Text->ByteString step that matters
16:00:27 <lechner> actually, i am not saving it at all. i want to send it to Postgres, but in Perl it leads to double encoding
16:00:29 <geekosaur> but I don't know where in that pipeline the conversion would happen, as Clint said
16:00:38 <lechner> i am migrating all my code
16:00:56 <lechner> you will be happy to hear!
16:01:11 <lechner> i think haskell is fine
16:01:20 <lechner> i love this language
16:01:45 <geekosaur> anyway I would probaly not encode it until I discovered it caused problems, since there should already be a proper encoding layer in place
16:02:09 <razetime> i just sarted haskell today with the book "Real World Haskell"
16:02:14 <razetime> I like its approach so far
16:02:20 <lechner> congrats!
16:02:58 <lechner> in perl i turn off all I/O layers
16:03:54 <lechner> but as usual haskell does the right thing (TM)
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16:04:44 <lechner> Clint: thanks!
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16:05:50 <geekosaur> if they're doing t right then encoding should be the last thing that happens before handing the SQL or data off to libpq
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16:08:34 <lechner> it can be confusing because UTF-8 is part of the JSON spec https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8259#section-8.1
16:09:13 <lechner> but aeson will work well!
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16:10:42 <lechner> thank you all for building this fine language. i wish i hadk found it ten years earlier
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16:19:39 <lechner> wow, APL is symbolic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_syntax_and_symbols
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16:32:09 <geekosaur> very symbolic. and used a lot of overprints
16:32:11 <razetime> yes, APL has its roots in math notation so it uses symbols.
16:32:27 <razetime> overprints?
16:32:47 <geekosaur> type a symbol, backspace over it, type another symbol on top
16:33:35 <geekosaur> think quote-quad for a common example
16:34:05 <razetime> ⍞?
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16:34:15 <razetime> well, i just have keyboard layout for it
16:34:28 <geekosaur> in unicode they gave them all distinct symbols because overprinting terminals are kinda rare these days
16:34:38 <hpc> on typewriters you might write a 0 by writing O backspace /
16:34:39 <geekosaur> but they started out on ttys
16:35:04 <geekosaur> but originally you did quote-quad as quad backspace quote
16:35:19 <geekosaur> and lamp was cap backspace circle
16:35:34 <razetime> bash has ~/.inputrc which allows an overprinting like setup.
16:35:59 <razetime> lamp is AltGr-, in the newer layouts
16:37:14 <geekosaur> damn I had fun experimenting with that stuff. parents weren't so happy when they got slapped with a $600 CPU time bill though (I'd had no idea they did that)
16:38:22 <razetime> wow, you must've been using the timesharing machines from the I.P. Sharp times
16:38:42 <geekosaur> they had fancy APL terminals by the time I was playing with it
16:38:52 <geekosaur> still did the overprinting thing
16:39:15 <razetime> that's like.. >40 years ago?
16:39:27 <geekosaur> this was 1981-82, I spent half days my senior HS year at CWRU
16:39:53 <geekosaur> so yes, 40 years ago
16:41:13 <razetime> very cool! Most people I encounter in the array community nowadays come up from older demo videos.
16:41:37 <razetime> it must've been something to try out apl in those times
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16:44:24 <geekosaur> also played with SPITBOL (IBM SNOBOL compiler), SAIL (variant of ALGOL-60 from Stanford), SIMULA, and I think there were a few others but can't recall them now
16:44:46 <geekosaur> took me a while to remember the name of SAIL, all I was recalling was that it was an ALGOL derivative
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16:49:01 <razetime> wonder how many of those still have implementations
16:49:48 <geekosaur> dunno. this was all on a DECsystem 20/60, they pulled the plug on the last of those years ago
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16:50:09 <geekosaur> oh, a bit of BLISS-10. which led to my learning about how PDP10s worked
16:51:16 <geekosaur> and explained why everything but SNOBOL was based on 6s instead of 8s
16:52:15 <geekosaur> on the other hand that meant I understood the TENEX directive in FTP when I discovered that a few years later
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16:53:16 <razetime> i only recognize SNOBOL from there(and ALGOL, i guess)
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16:54:07 <geekosaur> SIMULA's still used, I think
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16:54:40 <geekosaur> simulation language generally considered to be the first object oriented language, using the actor model
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16:55:39 <geekosaur> SNOBOL was replaced by Icon in much the same way APL was replaced by J then K
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16:58:23 <geekosaur> now I'm trying to imagine how different the programming world would be today if Unicon (Icon with a focus on Unix programming) had come along early enough to displace Perl
16:58:43 <razetime> APL hasn't quite been replaced yet, but BQN seems like a worthy successor now
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16:59:16 <razetime> K is very different from the other two and my personal favourit
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17:10:04 <EvanR> A -> a, is Applicative. What are the requirements for A -> (B,a) to be Applicative... also what is this
17:10:45 <[exa]> EvanR: Monoid B?
17:11:01 <EvanR> that's why I was thinking, but didn't know if I was missing a more general thing
17:11:06 <EvanR> s/why/what/
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17:11:07 <monochrom> Usually we want B to be a monoid. Then you have ReaderT A (Writer B).
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17:12:17 <EvanR> ok, mempty is "required" for pure
17:13:25 <monochrom> For foo<*>bar, "use <> to combine the two B's" is more general than "always prefer the B from foo" and "always prefer the B from bar".
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17:14:12 <monochrom> and is pivotal to associative laws of Applicative anyway.
17:14:36 <EvanR> crazy how Monoid keeps cropping up
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17:15:18 <EvanR> Applicative itself is a form of Monoid in some category, forgot the details
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17:16:13 <geekosaur> "strong lax monoidal functor" (looked it up to double check)
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17:24:10 <EvanR> if I have type f and type g which are both Applicative, is the composition f `O` g Applicative
17:24:30 <[exa]> :k Compose
17:24:30 <lambdabot> error:
17:24:30 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Compose’
17:24:34 <[exa]> ayay
17:24:41 <geekosaur> % :k Compose
17:24:41 <yahb> geekosaur: ; <interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: type constructor or class `Compose'
17:24:52 <geekosaur> % import Data.Compose
17:24:52 <yahb> geekosaur: ; <no location info>: error:; Could not find module `Data.Compose'; Perhaps you meant Data.Complex (from base-4.15.0.0)
17:24:57 <EvanR> oof
17:25:01 <[exa]> EvanR: basically https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/Data-Functor-Compose.html#t:Compose
17:25:04 <geekosaur> % import Control.Category
17:25:04 <yahb> geekosaur:
17:25:11 <geekosaur> oh
17:25:14 <geekosaur> % :k Compose
17:25:14 <yahb> geekosaur: ; <interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: type constructor or class `Compose'
17:25:28 <EvanR> that's cool, that they compose
17:25:45 <geekosaur> pretty sure they compose, but monads don't in general
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17:26:52 <EvanR> let see what else Compose can do
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17:28:35 <EvanR> Functor, Foldable, Traversable, Semigroup, Monoid,
17:28:42 <[exa]> Alternative!
17:29:00 <EvanR> somehow two Contravariants isn't contravariant?
17:29:20 <[exa]> I'd guess that's a Functor
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17:29:35 <EvanR> oh... and we can't get to the same instance two ways
17:30:13 <[exa]> I'd say that the order is set by order of composing the types
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17:30:22 <[exa]> but that's a wild guess
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17:31:12 <EvanR> no..
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17:39:17 <EvanR> Compose would be cool to have in lambdabot
17:40:53 <polyphem> % import Data.Functor.Compose
17:40:53 <yahb> polyphem:
17:40:56 <geekosaur> @let import Data.Functor Compose
17:40:56 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Parse error: Compose
17:41:02 <geekosaur> @let import Data.Functor.Compose
17:41:03 <lambdabot> Defined.
17:41:06 <geekosaur> there ya go
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18:03:44 <EvanR> > ((\x -> ("a",Sum x)) <> (\y -> ("b", Sum y))) 2
18:03:45 <lambdabot> ("ab",Sum {getSum = 4})
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18:04:18 <EvanR> :t Compose (\x -> ("a",Sum x)) <> Compose (\y -> ("b", Sum y))
18:04:19 <lambdabot> Semigroup (Compose ((->) a) ((,) [Char]) (Sum a)) => Compose ((->) a) ((,) [Char]) (Sum a)
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18:05:25 <EvanR> > getCompose (Compose (\x -> ("a",Sum x)) <> Compose (\y -> ("b", Sum y))) 2
18:05:26 <lambdabot> error:
18:05:26 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Semigroup
18:05:26 <lambdabot> (Compose ((->) Integer) ((,) [Char]) (Sum Integer)))
18:05:30 <EvanR> :(
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18:08:04 <EvanR> > getCompose (Compose (\x -> ("a",Sum x)) <> Compose (\y -> ("b", Sum y))) (Sum 2)
18:08:05 <lambdabot> error:
18:08:06 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Semigroup
18:08:06 <lambdabot> (Compose ((->) (Sum Integer)) ((,) [Char]) (Sum (Su...
18:09:58 <EvanR> fixing that, it seems the problem is there's no instance specifically for (Sum Int -> (String, Sum Int))
18:11:07 <xerox> @unmtl State (Sum Int) String
18:11:07 <lambdabot> Sum Int -> (String, Sum Int)
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18:12:42 <EvanR> > getCompose (liftA2 (<>) (Compose (\x -> ("a",x))) (Compose (\y -> ("b",y)))) (Sum 2)
18:12:43 <lambdabot> ("ab",Sum {getSum = 4})
18:13:39 <EvanR> if monoiding directly doesn't work, switch to applicative
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18:15:01 <EvanR> this is really cool, should save writing a lot of Applicative instances
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19:29:37 <ProfSimm> Let's imagine a hypothetical autocompletion feature where when you type a function you see a drop-down of all valid values on each argument.
19:30:09 <ProfSimm> So when you have a function that takes prime numbers as input, you see a dropdown of primes.
19:30:17 <ProfSimm> I wonder how feasible this is
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19:30:53 <polyphem> ProfSimm: and a function that takes Integer ?
19:31:20 <ProfSimm> polux: list of all integers. Well it'll be lazily computed as you scroll. And you can type it to jump around the list
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19:31:49 <ProfSimm> polux: gets a bit tricky if it takes a double.
19:32:05 <ProfSimm> polux: that would need a box that scrolls in two directions. Mantissa and exponent.
19:32:23 <ProfSimm> :D
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19:33:40 <polyphem> ProfSimm: and a function that takes a complex number ?
19:33:46 <ProfSimm> polux: I was thinking about this in the context of implementing a record as a function taking fieldname as input. And needing autocompletion on that argument therefore.
19:34:01 <ProfSimm> polyphem: more dimensions
19:34:08 <polyphem> hehe
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19:35:24 <polyphem> autocompletion is done vie prefix trees
19:35:33 <polyphem> s/vie/via/
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19:38:03 <monochrom> So I type in fmap...
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19:58:11 <lechner> Hi, do I have to use hasql-transactions to have transactions with hasql?
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20:04:03 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/SOHA
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20:07:55 <EvanR> I type in the first character of the source code for an MMO
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20:08:23 <EvanR> 🤑
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20:23:06 <Inst> do you know where i can find a good tutorial on haskell type signatures?
20:23:16 <Inst> like, i'm fed up with meeting crap like ~ and forall
20:24:45 <[itchyjunk]> Hm, i have having a little brain dead movement. I have a function that takes 2 ints. but if the list doesn't have enough, it will only get one of the int. I am trying to figure out how to deal with this situation. go x _ = x isn't it :x
20:26:55 <polyphem> patttern match on all cases : go [] = ... ; go (x:y:xs) ; go [x] = error ...
20:27:18 <bjs> [itchyjunk]: is go the function that takes a list or the function that takes the 2 ints?
20:28:46 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/ZPXQ
20:28:49 <[itchyjunk]> takes 2 ints.
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20:29:07 <[itchyjunk]> I am trying to understand why foldr1 didn't have the non exhaustive pattern issue but foldl1 does
20:29:10 <[itchyjunk]> ;_;
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20:30:30 <bjs> [itchyjunk]: did you mean minListl not minList at the bottom line?
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20:30:39 <[itchyjunk]> !
20:30:40 <[itchyjunk]> dangit
20:31:04 <[itchyjunk]> that was the bug?
20:31:07 <[itchyjunk]> /o\
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20:31:28 <[itchyjunk]> works now..
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20:33:31 <EvanR> Inst, tutorials... better go straight to the documentation
20:33:45 <Inst> back to haskell report 2010 it is, then
20:34:07 <EvanR> or the ghc manual
20:34:24 <geekosaur> the report won't have either forall or ~
20:34:24 <EvanR> if you're stuck on really advanced stuff
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20:35:53 <c_wraith> the ghc manual is really quite readable
20:38:06 <geekosaur> mostly. iirc the stuff about ~ is less so
20:40:01 <EvanR> Inst, a ~ b is a Constraint that means a and b are the same type
20:40:18 <Inst> thank you so much
20:40:29 <Inst> trying to search through HPFFP
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20:41:27 <EvanR> it goes in the same place as other constraints like Ord a, which means a has (to have) an Ord instance
20:42:02 <geekosaur> in general if you're seeing ~ as a constraint then you've kinda blown past the stuff most Haskell introductory courses cover
20:42:03 <Inst> i'm more looking for an authoritative reference on type signatures
20:42:25 <EvanR> it's complicated because there have been so many extensions
20:42:57 <EvanR> and some of them are really beyond everyday use case
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20:43:50 <c_wraith> and there are things like type families that will look like nothing new in a type signature, but actually are very different.
20:44:13 <c_wraith> I kind of wish they had a different syntax, but it's far from clear what other syntax was available
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20:44:36 <c_wraith> especially with the ability to hide them behind a type alias
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20:46:02 <[itchyjunk]> oh a~b means there is a type equivalence ? interesting!
20:46:10 <[itchyjunk]> is this the precursor to HoTT stuff?
20:46:24 <c_wraith> No, it's mostly a result of adding GADTs to the language
20:46:38 <[itchyjunk]> hmm
20:46:43 <c_wraith> when you pattern match on a GADT constructor, you can add evidence to the current context that two types are equivalent
20:46:57 <c_wraith> the ~ syntax was added as a way to express that independently
20:47:04 <[itchyjunk]> algebriac datatypes. haven't come across those yet
20:47:41 <c_wraith> you've certainly come across algebraic datatypes. just not generalized ones. (all uses `data' to create a type create algebraic types)
20:47:43 <geekosaur> you probably have, just announced. but GADTs (generalized algebraic datatypes) are a bit different
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20:49:01 <geekosaur> *unannounced
20:49:08 <geekosaur> hm, how did I do that
20:49:34 <c_wraith> I do it all the time. It's way too easy.
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20:59:17 <Inst> EvanR: I took a preview of "type-level programming"
20:59:47 <Inst> immediately starts talking about cardinality and stuff, I'm faintly familiar with cardinality from popular science interpretations of Cantor, but your type-level stuff is really "wild"
21:00:32 <Inst> https://leanpub.com/thinking-with-types/
21:01:15 <EvanR> cardinality is either the number of values a type has, infinite, or you just jumped the shark and went to set theory, which is down the hall and to the left
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21:07:56 <[itchyjunk]> lol
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22:09:04 <little_mac> cause theres an ai that can code does that mean someone can make a robot that can improve its self
22:09:07 <little_mac> oh no
22:09:40 <little_mac> a robot sleeping at night would be just its cpu re-compiling all its code and imporving
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22:13:13 <EvanR> riddle me this
22:13:26 <EvanR> :t head
22:13:27 <lambdabot> [a] -> a
22:13:58 <EvanR> well, imagine we're talking about Foldable. And you want to implement a 'safe head' using a fold.
22:14:15 <EvanR> by returning a Maybe.
22:14:35 <EvanR> how to do this without wrapping and unwrapping maybes
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22:14:47 <EvanR> wait, foldr
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22:15:47 <EvanR> duh
22:16:02 <geekosaur> yeh, I didn't see the problem
22:18:04 <EvanR> I should have asked this about getting a maybe minimum
22:18:26 <EvanR> in which case you gotta traverse through all the values
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22:26:56 <geekosaur> conceivably the unwraps/rewraps get optimized if ghc is smart enough to fuse the whole thing
22:27:30 <geekosaur> hm, guess not since it'll sometimes be Nothing and sometimes Just. feh
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22:32:54 <Rembane> Will catMaybes make it faster?
22:33:27 <geekosaur> no?
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22:34:21 <geekosaur> hm, actually if there is any value in the list then only the first time is it Nothing. this might fuse after all
22:35:44 <geekosaur> and then "wrapping"/"unwrapping" is just writing/reading the correct offset
22:36:51 <geekosaur> which will be fixed because it's fused
22:37:27 <geekosaur> not sure ghc is smart enough to unroll the list once to get something fusible though
22:37:28 <EvanR> that... sounds slick... if it works
22:38:19 <geekosaur> that might be a question for #ghc
22:39:42 <geekosaur> hm, in fact it doesn't even need tounroll, just jump into the middle the first time through
22:40:01 <geekosaur> bypass the unwrap and comparison and store the value
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23:08:47 <Inst> technically they're infinite if they have type variables
23:08:49 <Inst> i suppose multiplication can't break you out of low cardinalities
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23:28:09 <EvanR> if they have type variables, the question of cardinality is deferred until someone plugs in some concrete types
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23:28:44 <EvanR> a type indexed family of cardinalities
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All times are in UTC on 2022-01-08.