Logs on 2022-01-10 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:01:10	<dolio>	Also what is the accumulator for `null`?
00:01:46	<dolio>	Was that language just copied from foldl or something?
00:02:44	<EvanR>	at one point Foldable had laws and that was the first thing in the docs, iirc
00:03:16	<geekosaur>	they got moved to the bottom of the docs supposedly
00:03:29	<geekosaur>	too confusing for newcomers or something like that
00:03:30	<EvanR>	now I'm don't know what's going on, and I implemented foldl strict for my structure xD
00:03:36	<Axman6>	what should foldl for snoclist actually do...
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00:04:14	<c_wraith>	I'd say foldl should be the catamorphism for a snoclist
00:04:28	<monochrom>	Yeah :)
00:04:39	<EvanR>	no, I hate this
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00:05:12	<EvanR>	it's a damn list and the fact that we write things left to right has no bearing on the theory
00:05:41	<Axman6>	but the order matters
00:06:35	→	cosimone joins (~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:c24a:d20:4d91:1e20)
00:06:54	<c_wraith>	more precisely, the 'l' and 'r' in the names of foldl and foldr mean something
00:07:10	<c_wraith>	they tell you what side the base case goes on
00:07:37	<c_wraith>	when you reverse what side is the end, you reverse what side the base case goes on
00:08:08	<EvanR>	what
00:08:17	<EvanR>	side of what
00:08:36	<EvanR>	I took the 'r' to mean catamorphism
00:08:58	<dolio>	r means 'right'.
00:09:03	<c_wraith>	fold left = put the base case on the left (the start). fold right = put the base case on the right (the end)
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00:09:28	<EvanR>	the left = the start?
00:09:37	<c_wraith>	for english speakers, yes
00:09:39	<dolio>	Left means left.
00:09:40	<EvanR>	not in arabic
00:10:14	<EvanR>	what if I'm communicating about this with someone who is in australia and it looks backwards from down there
00:10:19	<EvanR>	(in english)
00:10:45	<c_wraith>	then they should turn their monitor off of reverse. (australia is upside down, not backwards. get your memes organized!)
00:10:46	<BrokenClutch>	It will be russian, I think
00:10:53	<EvanR>	left and right are symmetric where as foldl and foldr are not
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00:10:59	<BrokenClutch>	like, in australia, english is russian and russian is english
00:11:20	<EvanR>	so literal meaning of l and r are bad
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00:12:33	<EvanR>	if your point is the Foldable docs are bad, you made it
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00:13:11	<Inst>	do you know
00:13:18	<sonny>	someone mentioned the difference is the argument order?
00:13:20	<Inst>	if it's possible to code in Cmm within a .hs file?
00:13:27	<dolio>	It doesn't seem like your problem is that the Foldable docs are bad.
00:13:29	<EvanR>	it's not about argument order
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00:14:40	<sonny>	this is not allowed in Haskell right []:foo
00:14:55	<EvanR>	> let foo = [] in []:foo
00:14:57	<lambdabot>	[[]]
00:15:13	<EvanR>	i.e. []:[]
00:15:16	<sonny>	brb
00:15:46	<geekosaur>	Inst, you can create and use .cmm files, but it's not really recommended unless you really know what you are doing
00:16:05	<Inst>	is .cmm incredibly hard to use?
00:16:15	→	little_mac joins (~little_ma@2601:410:4300:3ce0:54ff:c767:ef1d:433e)
00:16:16	<geekosaur>	it's very low level
00:16:35	<Inst>	i mean, i'm a proponent of functional / imperative synthesis, both have their strengths
00:16:40	<geekosaur>	be very careful with what registers you use because it won't protect you from overwriting important ones
00:17:08	<geekosaur>	you can see some cmm files here https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/tree/master/rts
00:17:42	<Inst>	looks just like normal C
00:17:50	<geekosaur>	looks like it but is not
00:18:30	<Inst>	so, in theory, i could easily build a transpiler to cmm
00:19:06	<Inst>	so i could get Haskell-type syntax alongside features to make it more easily integrated into Haskell
00:19:23	<EvanR>	wait... that sounds like Haskell
00:19:41	<geekosaur>	I was thinking STG
00:19:45	<EvanR>	it has Haskell-like syntax and transpiles (compiles) to Cmm
00:19:55	<geekosaur>	which is fairly close to Core and compiles to Cmm
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00:23:26	<Inst>	erm, the way I had it explained to me is that .cmm is faster than C
00:24:09	<Inst>	but Haskell doesn't transpile fluently into .cmm because .cmm is imperative, while Haskell is imperative
00:24:13	<Inst>	erm, functional
00:24:25	<c_wraith>	I think you've misunderstood a few steps along the way
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00:24:29	<Inst>	probably
00:24:33	<Inst>	sorry for wasting your time
00:24:43	<c_wraith>	It's not a waste of time if you learn stuff
00:24:58	<Inst>	what did I misunderstand?
00:26:21	<c_wraith>	Well, "cmm is faster than c" is not a statement that is true or false.
00:26:37	<c_wraith>	cmm is more predictable than c
00:27:15	<c_wraith>	(it also has fewer constructs, which is helpful for a language that's really only intended as an intermediate compilation target)
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00:31:00	<geekosaur>	if you really want to be able to mix imperative and functional code, you may be interested in
00:31:04	<geekosaur>	@hackage inline-c
00:31:05	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/inline-c
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00:33:51	<Inst>	c_wraith: what I've read is that Cmm is designed for GHC's specialized Cmm compiler, which, because Cmm is more predictable, can do optimizations gcc or clang can't
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00:34:34	<c_wraith>	yes, but it also can't do some optimizations gcc or clang do, because they take advantage of that imprecision to interpret things in the way that gives the fastest code
00:34:38	<sonny>	EvanR: what about []:1 ?
00:34:40	<geekosaur>	but it also does less, which makes those optimizations easier
00:35:17	<geekosaur>	> []:1
00:35:18	<lambdabot>	error:
00:35:18	<lambdabot>	• No instance for (Num [[()]]) arising from a use of ‘e_11’
00:35:18	<lambdabot>	• In the expression: e_11
00:35:34	<sonny>	yes, so the second elem would have to be a list if the first is []
00:35:46	<geekosaur>	oh, my, lambdabot, you're being particularly obtuse today
00:35:57	<EvanR>	the second argument to : must be a list no matter what
00:36:07	<EvanR>	that's just how it's defined
00:36:14	<pfurla-matrix>	> flip (:) [] 1
00:36:14	<geekosaur>	:t (:)
00:36:14	<lambdabot>	a -> [a] -> [a]
00:36:15	<lambdabot>	[1]
00:36:20	<sonny>	oh
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00:36:46	<EvanR>	you always cons onto a list
00:36:47	<Inst>	: I believe, is a type constructor, right?
00:36:51	<Inst>	erm, data constructor
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00:36:57	<Axman6>	data constreuctor, yes
00:37:01	<Axman6>	-e
00:37:08	<pfurla-matrix>	data, yeah
00:38:12	<Inst>	c_wraith: has anyone ever tested it, like, attempted to outperform gcc etc using just .cmm?
00:38:34	<alkjdflkjs>	s
00:38:51	<Axman6>	well over a decade ago people were writing faster haskell than equivalent C - see Don Stewart's work
00:39:00	<c_wraith>	I doubt it. cmm is not really intended to be a user interface. It's only very recently that ghc added support for using it in libraries other than the RTS at all
00:39:29	<geekosaur>	.cmm is not really suitable for writing production code; it's intended to be a compiler intermediate language, which is a rather different use case
00:39:31	<c_wraith>	... Ok, my age might be getting to me. "very recently" might be as much as like 8 years ago. :)
00:39:39	<Inst>	Axman6: iirc, GHC compares favorably to Clang in benchmarks
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00:40:01	<geekosaur>	I think the old C-- (standalone cmm) sitew got archived a couple years back
00:40:05	<Inst>	it's that gcc is just so superior (i.e, has been able to get high-quality talent and labor) to Clang that makes Haskell work hard to compete in performance
00:40:11	<geekosaur>	it might have had some useful comparisons
00:40:11	<pfurla-matrix>	c_wraith: shut up, Sinclair Spectrum is still very recent
00:40:23	<Inst>	lol
00:40:36	<Axman6>	https://donsbot.com/2008/06/04/haskell-as-fast-as-c-working-at-a-high-altitude-for-low-level-performance/ is an example from 2008
00:40:49	<sonny>	EvanR: (cons 3 (cons 2 (cons 1 []))) = [3, 2, 1]. I'm going to guess this is not in the right order, what should it be?
00:41:06	<EvanR>	that looks right
00:41:14	<Axman6>	why would that not be the right order?
00:41:16	<monochrom>	\∩/ Sinclair Spectrum :)
00:41:31	<geekosaur>	> let cons = (:) in (cons 3 (cons 2 (cons 1 [])))
00:41:32	<lambdabot>	[3,2,1]
00:41:34	<sonny>	Axman6: well if it is, I'm not sure where flip happens
00:41:38	<pfurla-matrix>	> let cons = (:) in (cons 3 (cons 2 (cons 1 [])))
00:41:39	<lambdabot>	[3,2,1]
00:41:44	<Axman6>	what flip?
00:41:45	<monochrom>	I have a retired prof who owns a PDP-11.
00:42:06	<sonny>	Axman6: when you define reverse with foldl, it requires flip
00:42:08	<Inst>	https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/haskell-beats-C.pdf?from=http%3A%2F%2Fresearch.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fum%2Fpeople%2Fsimonpj%2Fpapers%2Fndp%2Fhaskell-beats-c.pdf
00:42:13	<Axman6>	monochrom: pretty sure there's one or two at my uni's CS department too
00:42:30	<Axman6>	sonny: do you understand what flip does?
00:42:39	<Axman6>	> flip f x y :: Expr
00:42:40	<Inst>	is sonny new to Haskell?
00:42:40	<pfurla-matrix>	monochrom: I was dying to play with one of these when I learned they existed (back in the '90s)
00:42:40	<lambdabot>	f y x
00:42:59	<sonny>	yeah
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00:43:17	<sonny>	Inst: yes
00:43:20	<EvanR>	ah a good use of Expr xD
00:43:25	<Axman6>	and did you follow the whole conversation we've been havving about the order of arguments for the function passed to foldl?
00:43:41	<Inst>	do you know what a data declaration looks like?
00:43:43	<Axman6>	:t foldl
00:43:44	<lambdabot>	Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
00:43:46	<Axman6>	:t (:)
00:43:47	<lambdabot>	a -> [a] -> [a]
00:43:56	<Inst>	in Haskell, of course
00:43:58	<sonny>	yeah, but I thought the problem wasn't the order?
00:44:08	<pfurla-matrix>	:t foldr -- compare with foldr
00:44:09	<lambdabot>	Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
00:44:31	<pfurla-matrix>	> foldr (:) [] [1,2,3]
00:44:33	<lambdabot>	[1,2,3]
00:44:33	<Axman6>	we need the b's to be [a], so we need a function with type ([a] -> a -> [a]). (:) has type a -> [a] -> [a], so if we apply flip, we get [a] -> a -> [a]
00:44:37	<sonny>	Inst: data foo = bar ?
00:44:40	<alkjdflkjs>	Hi, I've been trying to install GHCup but when I run the command of the page (curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org \| sh) I get the next error, what's the problem?
00:44:41	<alkjdflkjs>	Warning: ~/.ghcup/cache/ghcup-0.0.6.yaml.tmp: Permission denied
00:44:41	<alkjdflkjs>	0 139k 0 909 0 0 4024 0 0:00:35 --:--:-- 0:00:35 4040
00:44:42	<alkjdflkjs>	curl: (23) Failure writing output to destination
00:44:42	<alkjdflkjs>	[ Warn ] Could not get download info, trying cached version (this may not be r>
00:44:43	<alkjdflkjs>	[ ... ] If this problem persists, consider switching downloader via:
00:44:43	<alkjdflkjs>	[ ... ] ghcup config set downloader Wget
00:44:44	<alkjdflkjs>	[ Error ] JSON decoding failed with: YAML exception:
00:44:44	<alkjdflkjs>	[ ... ] Yaml file not found: ~/.ghcup/cache/ghcup-0.0.6.yaml
00:44:45	<alkjdflkjs>	[ ... ] Consider removing ~/.ghcup/cache/ghcup-0.0.6.yaml manually.
00:44:45	<alkjdflkjs>	[ ... ]
00:44:46	<alkjdflkjs>	"_eghcup upgrade" failed!
00:44:46	<Axman6>	alkjdflkjs: stop
00:44:56	<Axman6>	@where paste
00:44:56	<lambdabot>	Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
00:45:02	<monochrom>	. o O ( good timing )
00:45:02	<Inst>	sonny: more like data [] a = [] \| a \| [a] iirc
00:45:09	<Inst>	erm, not that
00:45:13	<geekosaur>	you have a permission problem somewhere
00:45:23	<Inst>	data [] a = [] \| a : [a]
00:45:54	<geekosaur>	alkjdflkjs, you have a permission problem somewhere. perhaps at some point you tried to run ghcup as root?
00:46:12	<Inst>	there
00:46:13	<Inst>	data [] a = [] \| a : [a]
00:46:17	<geekosaur>	ls -ld ~/.ghcup
00:46:26	<Inst>	the version you get if you do :i []
00:46:35	<Inst>	do you know how to read this, sonny?
00:46:50	<sonny>	Axman6: (b -> {a -> b}) right?
00:47:20	<Axman6>	the definition of list in Haskell is quite magical and not really a good example of defining data types, because _you_ are not allowed to write that definition
00:47:32	<Inst>	yeah, iirc, it's a primitive
00:47:33	<Axman6>	sonny: I don't understand what the question is
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00:47:43	<Inst>	i'd have to drag out a custom implementation of list
00:47:44	<Axman6>	b -> a -> b is the same as b -> (a -> b)
00:47:44	<sonny>	the order to read the signature
00:48:28	<Inst>	and tbh, that's why I think it might be worthwhile to set up own pedagogy, i.e, people don't spend enough time being taught how type signatures work, how to read it, took me weeks before I had a sufficient understanding of it
00:48:29	<geekosaur>	alkjdflkjs, can you join #haskell-beginners instead? it's a bit noisy in here currently, as you've probably noticed
00:48:56	<ephemient>	% :i ->
00:48:56	<yahb>	ephemient: type (->) :: * -> * -> ; type (->) = FUN 'Many :: -> * -> *; -- Defined in `GHC.Types'; infixr -1 ->; instance Applicative ((->) r) -- Defined in `GHC.Base'; instance Functor ((->) r) -- Defined in `GHC.Base'; instance Monad ((->) r) -- Defined in `GHC.Base'; instance Monoid b => Monoid (a -> b) -- Defined in `GHC.Base'; instance Semigroup b => Semigroup (a -> b) -- Defined in `GHC.Base'; instance [s
00:48:59	<Inst>	i'll read up
00:48:59	<alkjdflkjs>	ok, thanks
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00:49:16	<ephemient>	oh I was hoping that would print out "infixr -1 ->"
00:49:23	<sonny>	haskell uses * and letters?
00:49:35	<EvanR>	Inst, all that is really not helping the original problem of why flip is required
00:49:40	<Axman6>	c_wraith: I've spent too much time reading low level haskell and my brain keeps trying to figure out what the "wraith" function in C would be for
00:49:51	<c_wraith>	it makes your data vanish
00:49:57	<Axman6>	D:
00:50:01	<Axman6>	likeMongoDB?
00:50:05	→	xkuru joins (~xkuru@user/xkuru)
00:50:08	<c_wraith>	like /dev/null
00:50:09	<pfurla-matrix>	> data List a = EmptyList \| a :. (List a) deriving Show; infixr 5 :.
00:50:10	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘data’
00:50:16	<Axman6>	yeah, so like MongoDB
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00:50:33	<Axman6>	pfurla-matrix: use % for yahb, it'll remember
00:50:37	<geekosaur>	pfurla-matrix, use @let for definitions
00:50:43	<Axman6>	or that
00:50:43	<geekosaur>	or yahb, yeh
00:51:16	<pfurla-matrix>	@let data List a = EmptyList \| a :. (List a) deriving Show; infixr 5 :.
00:51:17	<lambdabot>	Defined.
00:51:25	<sonny>	so in this case b is the list and a is the numbers?
00:51:29	<pfurla-matrix>	> 1 :. 2 :. 3 :. EmptyList
00:51:30	<lambdabot>	1 :. (2 :. (3 :. EmptyList))
00:51:50	<pfurla-matrix>	sonny: y
00:52:23	<pfurla-matrix>	:t foldr (.:) EmptyList [1,2,3]
00:52:24	<lambdabot>	error:
00:52:24	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: (.:) :: a0 -> List a -> List a
00:52:24	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant one of these:
00:52:41	<EvanR>	oof
00:52:46	<Axman6>	:.
00:52:53	<pfurla-matrix>	s/.:/:./
00:52:54	<Axman6>	constructors start with :
00:53:01	<Axman6>	small oof
00:53:10	<sonny>	pfurla-matrix: I'm talking about Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b and foldl (flip(:)) []
00:53:12	<pfurla-matrix>	:t foldr (:.) EmptyList [1,2,3]
00:53:13	<lambdabot>	Num a => List a
00:53:28	<EvanR>	sonny, yeah, b = [Int], a = Int, in your examples
00:53:50	<EvanR>	and t = [], if you are looking at that Foldable version
00:53:57	<Axman6>	:t foldl -- here, all the b's are the type we want to return
00:53:58	<lambdabot>	Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
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00:54:16	<Axman6>	% :t foldl @[]
00:54:16	<yahb>	Axman6: (b -> a -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
00:54:59	<sonny>	EvanR: ok, so is the scheme version (a->a->b) ?
00:55:09	<EvanR>	no...
00:55:17	→	juri_ joins (~juri@178.63.35.222)
00:55:23	<Axman6>	it's (a -> b -> b)
00:55:33	<sonny>	one sec
00:55:35	<Axman6>	... I think, I've already forgotten!
00:55:53	<Inst>	wait, does sonny understand operators and operator sections?
00:55:56	<sonny>	ok ok ok
00:56:06	<sonny>	someone do the lambda bot on :
00:56:07	<ephemient>	the accumulator has to be an input to the function being used to fold; whether it's the first argument or the second varies by language
00:56:15	<EvanR>	:t (:)
00:56:16	<lambdabot>	a -> [a] -> [a]
00:56:20	<sonny>	ohhhh
00:56:25	<sonny>	hmm
00:57:06	<EvanR>	if you rename the variables, foldl is
00:57:14	<Inst>	so what i'm assuming is happening with foldl is that (:) can't get its arguments in the right order, so flip is being used to reverse the order (:) is taking its arguments in
00:57:52	<Axman6>	exactly
00:57:55	<pfurla-matrix>	This is eye-opener https://wiki.haskell.org/Fold#List_folds_as_structural_transformations
00:57:57	<Axman6>	nothing more, nothing less
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00:58:07	<Inst>	user-defined list: members of the type UDF can either be of value (nil), which is a root that starts the list
00:58:14	<EvanR>	belaying that
00:58:14	<Inst>	UDF -> user-defined list
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00:58:42	<Inst>	or, a construction of some value (of the same type as existing values in the list) appended to an existing list type
00:59:17	<Inst>	you can't just have the second, because then there's no existing list value to append to
00:59:23	<pfurla-matrix>	I'd rather talk about PDP-11 than Scheme (although Scheme is awesome too)
01:00:00	<Inst>	but when you have the second, the list is composed out of stuff of type a being appended to existing values of type list a
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01:00:13	<ephemient>	or you could have a list type that can only represent infinite lists :)
01:00:23	<Inst>	i've never seen that
01:00:24	<c_wraith>	we usually call that Stream
01:00:24	<sonny>	Axman6: do you say (a -> b -> b) because of how cons in scheme is defined?
01:00:49	<sonny>	iirc it is not as strict as haskell
01:01:21	<Inst>	why i'm full of shit / utterly nuts: want students to define a custom list type (while being hand-held) on the first problem set
01:01:41	<pfurla-matrix>	@let ListInf a = a ::. ListInf a
01:01:42	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:170:1: error:
01:01:42	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: data constructor ‘ListInf’
01:01:42	<lambdabot>	\|
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01:01:55	<pfurla-matrix>	@let data ListInf a = a ::. ListInf a
01:01:56	<lambdabot>	Defined.
01:02:16	<Inst>	ah, and how does that work?
01:02:25	<Inst>	will that toss out an infinite type error any time you try to use it?
01:02:31	<c_wraith>	sonny: (a -> b -> b) is closely related to lists. In particular, it's closely related to the church encoding of the (:) constructor
01:02:43	<ephemient>	> fix (1 ::.)
01:02:44	<lambdabot>	error:
01:02:44	<lambdabot>	• No instance for (Show (ListInf Integer))
01:02:44	<lambdabot>	arising from a use of ‘show_M85587785111551100718’
01:02:49	<Inst>	whoops
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01:02:52	<Inst>	forgot to derive show
01:03:11	<pfurla-matrix>	that was on purpose :P
01:03:32	<ephemient>	it's fine to derive Show, lambdabot will truncate
01:03:50	<pfurla-matrix>	@def infconst a = a ::. (infconst a)
01:03:51	<lambdabot>	Defined.
01:04:04	<sonny>	pfurla-matrix: the mystery lies here "Note that the parameters to cons must be flipped, because the element to add is now the right hand parameter of the combining function."
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01:04:46	<Inst>	a : b = (:) a b
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01:05:05	<Inst>	b has to be an existing list type
01:05:15	<geekosaur>	value
01:05:19	<Inst>	list value, sorry
01:05:20	<Inst>	;_;
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01:08:05	<sonny>	so what I don't get is that it's like if the param list is x y, the zero value get's sent to x first in haskell and y first in scheme
01:08:30	<geekosaur>	I told you that earlier, it's just an arbitrary choice each language made
01:08:42	<sonny>	from there, I need to get to (a -> b -> b)
01:08:44	<geekosaur>	scheme went for programmer convenience by having them match
01:09:01	<sonny>	geekosaur: I understand but I don't understand
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01:09:08	<geekosaur>	haskell went for mathematical convenience with how the functions naturally associate
01:09:20	<sonny>	ok
01:09:24	<geekosaur>	each has arguments for and against
01:09:46	<sonny>	so what haskell does, is that it allows for left association to work properly right?
01:09:52	<geekosaur>	you'd have to hunt down the scheme and haskell language designers to find out why they made those choices
01:10:20	<geekosaur>	it just makes left associativity match up with a natural left-associative function
01:10:30	<sonny>	so fold can be universal, and when you use - it will keep the properties
01:10:38	<geekosaur>	> foldr (*) z [a,b,c]
01:10:39	<lambdabot>	a * (b * (c * z))
01:10:45	<geekosaur>	> foldl (*) z [a,b,c]
01:10:46	<lambdabot>	z * a * b * c
01:11:02	<Axman6>	> foldl (\accumlatingList headValue -> headValue : accumulatingList) [] [1,2,3]
01:11:03	<lambdabot>	error:
01:11:03	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: accumulatingList :: [a]
01:11:03	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant ‘accumlatingList’ (line 1)
01:11:06	<sonny>	err I don't actually remember - associativity
01:11:25	<Axman6>	> foldl (\accumulatingList headValue -> headValue : accumulatingList) [] [1,2,3]
01:11:26	<lambdabot>	[3,2,1]
01:11:27	<sonny>	+ is left but it doesn't matter
01:11:30	<geekosaur>	see how nicely those both come out in Haskell? in Scheme the corresponding expansions are uglier because fold flips the argument order
01:11:49	<geekosaur>	but it's more convenient for most programmers to remember
01:11:56	<sonny>	ok
01:12:08	<sonny>	much thanks
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01:12:45	<dolio>	I don't see how these conveniences are more or less 'programmer' oriented.
01:12:58	<Inst>	also, a question, is it useful to speak of FAM instead of Monad?
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01:13:34	<dolio>	It's convenient to be able to remember that the argument types are the same order in both, and it's convenient to remember a simple rule for what the result of the function will actually be.
01:13:34	<pfurla-matrix>	you guys are almost going bananas and barbed wire
01:13:47	<dolio>	Those are both convenient when programming.
01:14:12	<pfurla-matrix>	what is FAM?
01:14:17	<sonny>	dolio: (a->b->b) is probably what'd you do if you defined it though
01:14:21	<Inst>	functor - applicative - monad
01:14:23	<pfurla-matrix>	Functor-Applicative-Monad?
01:14:34	<Inst>	then again, for a lot of types you might end up with FAMTSM or something like that
01:14:56	<Inst>	just a way to avoid saying the M word, as well as making it clear you're talking about typeclasses
01:15:16	<geekosaur>	Inst, to most of us FAM refers to the proposal to make Applicative (and thereby Functor) a "superclass" of Monad
01:15:22	<Inst>	i see
01:15:27	<Inst>	which went through
01:15:27	<geekosaur>	because Applicative didn't exist when Monad was invented
01:15:39	<geekosaur>	yes, some years back
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01:15:46	<Inst>	so functor only became a superclass of monad when applicative became a superclass of monad?
01:16:14	<dolio>	sonny: I would probably do what is done in Haskell, because I'm used to it, and have no problems remembering how it is.
01:16:24	<geekosaur>	yes
01:16:55	<geekosaur>	there's even an old holdover, liftM should be fmap but because Functor was not a superclass of Monad it had to be "rebuilt" from >>=
01:18:24	<Inst>	yeah i thought monads became a subclass of functor before then
01:18:42	<geekosaur>	it really needs Applicative in between
01:18:52	<pfurla-matrix>	does "being lazy with class" cover these?
01:19:03	<Inst>	i actually don't see how monads are a subclass of applicative, tbh
01:19:15	<Inst>	return = pure is natural
01:19:24	<geekosaur>	because Monad claims to have two methods, return and (>>=) — but "return" is actually "pure" from Applicative, in the same way "liftM" is really "fmap"
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01:19:44	<Inst>	but why monads need <*> is more questionable
01:19:52	<geekosaur>	they have it
01:19:57	<c_wraith>	It's not so much that they need it as they have it
01:19:59	<c_wraith>	:t ap
01:20:00	<lambdabot>	Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
01:20:01	<geekosaur>	we called it "ap" before Applicative
01:20:06	<c_wraith>	:t (<*>)
01:20:07	<lambdabot>	Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
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01:21:24	<EvanR>	sonny, I recently defined something with argument order like (b -> a -> b) instead of (a -> b -> b) because I forsaw myself wanting to partial the b alot, and so tried to avoid a lot of flips
01:21:36	<EvanR>	still questioning my sanity
01:22:47	<Inst>	i'm wondering, why can't monads and applicatives both have pure and return as separate methods?
01:22:53	<Inst>	or is this something with the instance system?
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01:23:46	<Inst>	i.e, have them both be subclasses of fmap, but not subclasses of each other
01:23:48	<sonny>	EvanR: I don't know what partial means there :(
01:23:54	<Inst>	partial application
01:23:58	<Inst>	did you learn about currying yet?
01:24:08	<Inst>	(also planning to put that on first problem set)
01:24:08	<sonny>	yeah, but I don't think about it
01:24:18	<Axman6>	Inst: I use <*> _all_ the time, probably more often than I use anything from Monad
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01:24:27	<pfurla-matrix>	:t (1 :)
01:24:28	<lambdabot>	Num a => [a] -> [a]
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01:24:46	<Axman6>	"the function which adds 1 to the front of any lists of numbers"
01:24:47	<lyxia>	It would subvert established expectations and you would have to have two parallel sets of combinators for Monad and Applicative
01:25:13	<Inst>	i see
01:25:16	<sonny>	EvanR: that is a dilema then :/
01:25:18	<jackdk>	every monad is an applicative, so there's no point having `return` (apart from historical baggage)
01:25:26	<pfurla-matrix>	would the laws hold for anything but return = pure?
01:25:42	<lyxia>	Requiring that the Applicative instance agree with the Monad instance means you can freely use applicative combinators for monads.
01:25:52	<Axman6>	Inst: all Monads are Applicatives, which implies Monad is a subclass of Applicative. it is a monad law that <*> and ap behave the same
01:26:03	<Inst>	i know
01:26:09	<Inst>	or wait, is ap defined in monad?
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01:26:15	<Axman6>	no
01:26:43	<pfurla-matrix>	:i ap
01:26:43	<Axman6>	but it is defined for all monads as: ap mf ma = mf >>= \f -> f <$> ma
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01:27:17	<Inst>	tbh i sort of hate the applicative class, courtesy Hutton, I know what it's for
01:27:34	<Inst>	*typeclass
01:27:36	<geekosaur>	pfurla-matrix, :i doesn't work in lambdabot. it does in yahb but you probably want to use %% :i <whatever> so it'll pastebin the response
01:27:51	<Inst>	but I can't figure out how to work with dissimilar nested monads in applicative
01:28:10	<pfurla-matrix>	geekosaur: thanks
01:28:21	<Inst>	yes yes, go learn monad transformers and i won't have this problem
01:28:27	<EvanR>	sonny, not really
01:28:48	<sonny>	what is the solution then?
01:28:54	<pfurla-matrix>	Inst: keep doing what you are doing and you probably going to invent transformers yourself
01:29:11	<EvanR>	sonny, pick argument order that makes usage most convenient
01:29:20	<Inst>	i'm not that comfortable with the type system
01:29:39	<Inst>	i.e, taking a function type as an argument in data / newtype? That's wild.
01:29:45	<sonny>	good point
01:30:04	<Inst>	with hutton, i think it's the first time anyone teaches you you can put in a function type as an argument in data /newtype
01:30:23	<Axman6>	Inst: Applicative is probably one of the most useful type classes we have in Haskell, it is difficult to describe just how useful it is, and how pleasant it is to use once you know the pattern
01:30:50	<Inst>	as far as i understand it, it's only useful with single layer applicative types
01:30:53	<Axman6>	and it's one of the reasons why Facebook's Sigma spam filtering system can run as fast as it does
01:31:15	<Axman6>	Inst: then I guess you don't understand it :)
01:31:23	<Inst>	;___;
01:31:31	<Inst>	(emoticon denotes tears)
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01:32:23	<pfurla-matrix>	Axman6: very true... parsec sigh
01:32:37	<Inst>	i can't figure out what it should look like, say, <> <> if I have two layers
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01:33:04	<Inst>	and iirc operators (or functions) can't take operators as arguments
01:33:06	<c_wraith>	if you have two layers and want to stay sane, use Compose
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01:33:14	<Inst>	i don't want to stay sane!
01:33:28	<c_wraith>	and you can pass an operator as an argument by putting it in parens
01:33:37	<Inst>	which converts it to a function
01:33:42	<Inst>	so <> (<>)?
01:33:43	<Axman6>	% getCompose $ (+) <$> Compose [Just 1, Just 2, Nothing] <*> Compose [Just 10, Nothing, Just 30]
01:33:43	<yahb>	Axman6: [Just 11,Nothing,Just 31,Just 12,Nothing,Just 32,Nothing,Nothing,Nothing]
01:33:45	<c_wraith>	what's the difference?
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01:34:16	<Inst>	the exact reason ($) is useful?
01:34:25	<Inst>	I never learned evaluation order properly
01:34:27	<Axman6>	:t liftA2 (<*>)
01:34:27	<Inst>	need exercises for that
01:34:28	<lambdabot>	(Applicative f1, Applicative f2) => f1 (f2 (a -> b)) -> f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b)
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01:34:41	<c_wraith>	($) isn't about evaluation order, it's about parsing
01:34:47	<Inst>	the way I understand it is that functions of infix need to be ( ... )
01:34:49	<geekosaur>	($) can reduce the number of parentheses you need
01:34:49	<Inst>	parsing, I guess
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01:34:58	<Inst>	$ works because the function can't take $ as an argument
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01:35:17	<Inst>	and $ has infix (l or r? I forget) of 0
01:35:20	<Inst>	so it gets parsed last
01:35:35	<Inst>	parsing is a better term than evaluation, since trying to use evaluation gets confused with lazy evaluation, which is a whole another beast
01:35:53	<geekosaur>	it's about associativity
01:36:06	<geekosaur>	normal function application is left-associative and highest precedence
01:36:15	<geekosaur>	\($) is right-associative and lowest precedence
01:36:26	<geekosaur>	so it kinda acts like inside-out parentheses
01:36:38	<Inst>	which is why you see it everywhere in Haskell code and people get confused
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01:37:00	<Inst>	iirc infixl / infixr only throws errors if they have the same precedence, right?
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01:37:21	<ephemient>	also infix (without infixl/infixr)
01:38:00	<Inst>	a ^^l b ^^r c, assuming ^^r and l are user-defined operators
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01:38:14	<Inst>	that only blows up if they have the same precedence level?
01:38:52	<Axman6>	I;d love to have an infixb for balanced, so a * b * b * d = (a * b) * (c * d), but that would be a very weird feature
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01:39:16	<c_wraith>	that would confuse the heck out of people
01:39:32	<Axman6>	the fixity number would be "n" where only * has n, you can't mix with other operators
01:39:35	<Inst>	only if anyone actually uses it
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01:40:39	<lyxia>	Have you heard about our lord and savior Agda
01:41:03	<Axman6>	"If a shitty feature exists and no one uses it, is it really a problem?"
01:41:03	<Inst>	parsing still has a problem, tbh, as a term
01:41:07	<Inst>	since you'll confuse it with parsers
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01:41:22	<Axman6>	mixfix+-_+
01:41:34	<lyxia>	<3
01:42:22	<Inst>	so, i'll treat it as a homework assignment from you, axman6
01:42:50	<Inst>	the reason i had that openfiledialog crap was because i was trying to set up an environment where learning haskell would be "user friendly", for some definition of user and friendly
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01:43:11	<Inst>	learning IO, the biggest thing that pops to mind is "why do I have to specify the filepath in code?"
01:43:24	<Inst>	"if i specify it with a user prompt, why does it have to be command line?"
01:43:31	<Axman6>	I believe several people have encouraged to learn haskell first, then you can try and make it easier, once you know why things are the way they are
01:43:45	<Inst>	yeah, i'm learning haskell right now
01:43:57	<Inst>	my time for deployment is delayed to late march at the earliest, but i wouldn't be surprised if it were june
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01:44:23	<Inst>	but sorry, i guess i'm using you guys as a public journal of "why the hell is this so hard?"
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01:44:35	<Inst>	the homework assignment is:
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01:45:21	<Inst>	I've figured out how to use >>= \foo -> ... as a way to feed openFile a type of IO Maybe [Text]
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01:45:34	<Inst>	I've figured out how to use fmap to do so
01:45:40	<Inst>	now I need to figure out how to use pure / <*>
01:45:44	<Inst>	I was thinking it wasn't possible
01:45:51	<Inst>	openFile, in this context, requires String
01:46:03	<Axman6>	you need to stop forgetting the parens :)
01:46:09	<Inst>	;___;
01:46:24	<Inst>	why do the parens matter?
01:46:48	<Axman6>	because what you wrote is ((IO Maybe) [Text]), which is a kind error
01:47:02	<Inst>	why do we default to this?
01:47:07	<Axman6>	:kind IO
01:47:14	<Axman6>	% :kind IO
01:47:14	<yahb>	Axman6: * -> *
01:47:20	<Axman6>	% :kind Maybe
01:47:20	<yahb>	Axman6: * -> *
01:47:27	<Axman6>	* /= * -> *
01:47:31	<Inst>	other than perhaps laziness (type-level function application follows the same rules as function application)
01:47:52	<Inst>	Is there actually a context where (TC1 TC2) TC3 is useful as a series of type constructors?
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01:48:14	<Axman6>	it's for exactly the same reason as we do the same thing for function, " " is function and type application, so it associates to the left
01:48:14	<dolio>	It works exactly like `f x y z` at the term level.
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01:48:28	<Inst>	i mean why does it need to left associate as opposed to right associate?
01:48:32	<Axman6>	% :kind Either
01:48:32	<yahb>	Axman6: * -> * -> *
01:48:46	<Axman6>	which is * -> (* -> *)
01:49:11	<Axman6>	that means we can talk about Either Int, which is something of kind * -> *, we have partially applied the Either constructor
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01:49:36	<Axman6>	:t fmap @(Either Int)
01:49:36	<lambdabot>	error:
01:49:37	<lambdabot>	Pattern syntax in expression context: fmap@(Either Int)
01:49:37	<lambdabot>	Did you mean to enable TypeApplications?
01:49:38	<Inst>	(Either Int) String
01:49:41	<Axman6>	% :t fmap @(Either Int)
01:49:41	<yahb>	Axman6: (a -> b) -> Either Int a -> Either Int b
01:49:59	<Axman6>	so, we can talk about Either where f = Either Int
01:50:22	←	jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
01:50:39	<Inst>	hence why I suspect it's reasonable to introduce early "Haskell has a powerful type system", except I don't know what a type system is and why it's powerful
01:51:33	<Inst>	but w/e, that's my problem, at this point, I've already found Haskell in Depth and they discuss (in something I can almost understand) the type system
01:52:39	<Inst>	thanks for humoring me, have a good night
01:53:29	<Axman6>	o/
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02:06:12	<monochrom>	"powerful" is a very vague and much abused word.
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02:06:30	<monochrom>	"expressive" is how I would describe Haskell's type system.
02:07:27	<qrpnxz>	it's also powerful
02:09:01	<EvanR>	C++ is powerful
02:09:09	<EvanR>	in the shoot yourself in the foot sense
02:09:18	<EvanR>	i.e. high voltage
02:09:59	<jackson99>	not sure I'd associate power of the type system with its unsoundness
02:10:44	<EvanR>	wouldn't an unsound logic be the strongest of all? xD
02:11:19	<jackson99>	that being said C++ has a pretty expressive type system as well, most of the unsafety was inherited from C
02:11:57	<geekosaur>	.oO { Paul Lynde singing "I'm my own grandmother" }
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02:14:01	<sonny>	it's a type system that meets the programmers expectations
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02:19:36	<sonny>	are n+k patterns gone?
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02:38:52	<Inst>	https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3748592/what-are-nk-patterns-and-why-are-they-banned-from-haskell-2010 sonny
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02:39:26	<EvanR>	banned patterns
02:39:46	<sonny>	was super easy to define stirling numbers with them
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02:42:58	<Inst>	you can still do n+k
02:43:02	<Inst>	just have to be a bit creative
02:43:11	<Inst>	Main> factorial (n) =( \k -> (() (k+1) (factorial k))) (n+1)
02:43:21	<Inst>	inner parens are not needed
02:43:45	<Inst>	at least, in the lambda, other than to specify arguments for () and to sectionize
02:44:03	<Inst>	oh derp, that code doesn't work
02:45:13	<EvanR>	I saw a proposal to remove numeric literals from patterns
02:45:40	<sonny>	sometimes you just want to copy the formula into Haskell you know? ;)
02:46:29	<Inst>	factorial 0 = 1
02:46:29	<Inst>	factorial (n) = (\n -> (*) (n+1) (factorial n)) (n-1)
02:47:16	<EvanR>	factorial n = product [1..n] -- xD
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02:48:49	<Inst>	but that's equivalent to an n+k pattern, except without the wonkiness
02:49:08	<sonny>	EvanR: lol
02:49:30	<sonny>	afk
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02:51:13	<Inst>	sonny: even if it worked, if you check the link
02:51:39	<Inst>	it'd probably end up bugging out, and tbh i don't get why ghc isn't smart enough to avoid bugging out
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03:00:04	<Inst>	apparently n+k was defined to bug out
03:00:05	<Inst>	https://sites.google.com/site/haskell/notes/nkpatterns
03:00:38	<Inst>	sort of wish haskell was smart enough that n+k or, for that matter, an arbitrary expression in pattern matching, would be processed correctly
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03:01:16	<jackson99>	I thought n+k pattern is no longer supported?
03:01:33	<Inst>	it's gone
03:01:43	<EvanR>	pattern matching isn't some AI thing, it's part of a carefully defined calculus related to ADTs
03:02:25	<EvanR>	there are cool new kind of patterns out there but it's not a thing to understand arbitrary expressions
03:03:00	<EvanR>	e.g. patterns for list could be converted to a fold
03:03:34	<EvanR>	for any Num, that's not the case for +
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03:06:08	<Inst>	+ on fixed precision integral messes up once you get close enough to overflow
03:06:49	<Inst>	besides, i've shown the workaround to produce something roughly equivalent to n+k
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03:06:55	<EvanR>	does Int mess up or does the programmer xD
03:07:02	<Inst>	without the wonkiness
03:07:12	<Inst>	is the self-other dichotomy real or fictive? :)
03:07:45	<EvanR>	true the user and the computer probably have irreversible entanglement
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03:19:59	<Inst>	erm, could someone explain Type to me?
03:20:33	<Inst>	the problem is, my orientation is, well, "you don't understand anything unless you can derive it yourself" -> comp sci version: "you don't understand anything unless you can implement it yourself"
03:20:43	<Inst>	erm, not Type
03:20:45	<Inst>	Text
03:20:54	<Inst>	String is bad because it's linked lists and thus not performant
03:21:02	<Inst>	but then what is Text? Is it some hack to produce arrays?
03:21:43	<EvanR>	lists are bad if they are big and stick around
03:21:53	<EvanR>	which is not necessarily the case
03:22:15	<EvanR>	Text is implemented as an array
03:22:42	<EvanR>	you could make it yourself if you really wanted, it's just a library
03:25:36	<EvanR>	one issue with String is, a lot of processing goes into each Char when they go through Handles. If you use packed encoded text it is faster
03:27:56	<Inst>	i guess it's my problem, i.e, how do you implement arrays in haskell
03:29:15	<EvanR>	for performance there are GHC primitives
03:29:37	<EvanR>	but several libraries exist which put a nice API on top
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03:30:43	<EvanR>	and set you up for fusion
03:31:06	<EvanR>	see `vector'
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04:10:03	<albet70>	how to construct ExceptT e IO a? IO isn't a constructor
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04:10:54	<dibblego>	given which?
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04:13:57	<albet70>	any
04:16:00	<albet70>	:t ExceptT $ print $ Left 3
04:16:01	<lambdabot>	error:
04:16:01	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘()’ with ‘Either e a’
04:16:01	<lambdabot>	Expected type: IO (Either e a)
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04:16:57	<Axman6>	:t ExceptT $ print (Left 3 :: Either String Int)
04:16:58	<lambdabot>	error:
04:16:58	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘()’ with ‘Either e a’
04:16:58	<lambdabot>	Expected type: IO (Either e a)
04:17:05	<Axman6>	:t ExceptT
04:17:06	<lambdabot>	m (Either e a) -> ExceptT e m a
04:17:11	<Axman6>	uh, of course
04:17:36	<Axman6>	:t ExceptT $ fmap Left $ print "foo"
04:17:36	<lambdabot>	ExceptT () IO a
04:17:43	<Axman6>	:t print
04:17:44	<lambdabot>	Show a => a -> IO ()
04:18:30	<EvanR>	:t throw
04:18:31	<lambdabot>	Exception e => e -> a
04:18:52	<EvanR>	:t throwError
04:18:53	<lambdabot>	MonadError e m => e -> m a
04:19:01	<EvanR>	ExceptT is a MonadError
04:19:32	<EvanR>	a non-error result of ExceptT can be created with pure / return
04:20:02	<EvanR>	so basically, pure/return or throwError are two good ways to construct an ExceptT
04:20:55	<EvanR>	albet70, to print from ExceptT e IO... use liftIO
04:22:21	<EvanR>	:t liftIO
04:22:22	<lambdabot>	MonadIO m => IO a -> m a
04:22:33	<albet70>	"🟢 EvanR :albet70, to print from ExceptT e IO... use liftIO", but I want to construct with Left way
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04:23:31	<EvanR>	well, then you have use Axman6's :t ExceptT directly
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04:23:56	<EvanR>	irl you probably want to stick to the API though
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04:27:39	<EvanR>	:t ExceptT (return (Left (userError "I'm out")))
04:27:40	<lambdabot>	Monad m => ExceptT IOError m a
04:28:03	<EvanR>	:t runExceptT $ ExceptT (return (Left (userError "I'm out")))
04:28:04	<lambdabot>	Monad m => m (Either IOError a)
04:28:45	<EvanR>	e.g. m=IO
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04:31:13	<EvanR>	:t ExceptT (throwError (userError "I'm out"))
04:31:14	<lambdabot>	MonadError IOError m => ExceptT e m a
04:31:38	<EvanR>	:t throwError (userError "I'm out")
04:31:39	<lambdabot>	MonadError IOError m => m a
04:31:49	<EvanR>	ignore second to last one
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04:47:18	<Axman6>	albet70: are you sure that's the beaviour you want?That would ve a very unusual thing to do
04:47:23	<Axman6>	be*
04:48:27	<hololeap_>	albet70: normally you use throwError to get a Left value, regardless of what your MonadExcept is
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04:49:16	<Axman6>	liftIO (print Something) >> throwError SomethingWentWrong feels mor elike maybe what you want?
04:49:36	<Inst>	also lol
04:49:39	<Inst>	this is an absolute treasure
04:49:48	<Inst>	"that feel when you know what monads are but not what objects are"
04:49:48	<Axman6>	I thought you were going to sleep :P
04:49:59	<Inst>	have a fwb i'm helping with her python
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04:50:20	<Inst>	they're literally teaching "stack four if statements" in her python class, but we're paranoid she'll have objects dumped on her lap
04:50:24	<hololeap>	:t liftEither -- albet70: you can also use this
04:50:25	<lambdabot>	MonadError e m => Either e a -> m a
04:50:29	<Axman6>	Not sure your sexual history was necessary there
04:50:47	<Inst>	sorry!
04:50:59	<Axman6>	also, the hoist-errors package is fantastic for working with ExceptT
04:51:15	<EvanR>	Inst, since this is haskell and not python... I think of this picture from the cover of Theory of Objects http://lucacardelli.name/Topics/TheoryOfObjects/ObjectSubject.html
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04:53:00	<Inst>	well, tbh, it's just funny when you know what monads are and you're trying to understand objects in the context of monads
04:53:59	<Inst>	at some point someone is going to write a coherent comparison between monads and objects as concepts
04:54:05	<hololeap>	aren't objects just data with extra steps?
04:54:07	<EvanR>	no, please don'
04:54:11	<Inst>	okay, i'll stop
04:55:08	<EvanR>	unlike objects, monads have a very precise description with very little in the way of "remixing" of interpretation xD
04:55:36	<EvanR>	leibniz notwithstanding
04:56:04	<Inst>	i'd see them both as ways of data encapsulation. in certain areas, monads are more flexible, in others, less flexible
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04:56:14	<EvanR>	no monads aren't about data encapsulation
04:56:26	<Inst>	a type constructor is about data encapsulation
04:57:01	<EvanR>	your data encapsulation scheme may be described with types, but not nearly all types are about data encapsulation
04:57:17	<dibblego>	I thought they were about constructing types
04:57:36	<EvanR>	actually, most basic types in haskell intentionally tell you everything that is going on, (), Bool, Either, Maybe, etc
04:57:47	<EvanR>	cards on the table
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04:58:24	<hololeap>	monads need a join function. can you do that with any object?
04:58:29	<EvanR>	and the monad instance for the basic types just formalize certain operations
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04:59:48	<EvanR>	(that already existed and didn't need monads to do)
05:00:09	<hololeap>	if I have a car in my car, so I can drive while I drive... can that be joined into a single car?
05:00:31	<Inst>	hololeap: i mean that's where i see monads as more flexible if you see them as a set of methods for dealing with types that have been placed into a monadic type, but the monad typeclass is useful for more than just containerizing types
05:00:52	<Inst>	hololeap: the real reason people love Haskell xD
05:01:27	<hololeap>	it's a very limited set of methods, namely return and join/bind
05:01:40	<EvanR>	class Circle a => Ellipse a
05:01:44	<EvanR>	class Ellipse a => Circle a
05:02:10	<Inst>	and it's actually possible to instance into that!
05:02:41	<EvanR>	in before the "monads are just spreadsheets" blog post
05:03:00	<hololeap>	but ultimately monads are about composition of functions with extra "stuff"
05:03:14	<hololeap>	monads are much closer to functions than they are to objects
05:03:17	<Inst>	i don't think it's possible to create a monads are just (monads are just (monads are just...) blog posts
05:03:36	<Inst>	but given the recursion, it'd be very haskell
05:05:33	<EvanR>	monad is an algebraic structure, like monoid or semigroup. It doesn't make sense to talk about containerization in general. But the other way around, many containers can be flattened and this is monadic. Also many other phenomena fit the same shape
05:05:45	<Inst>	sorry, i'll run off, i do need to get objects though, although, it gets me wondering, since monads are implementable in languages with interfaces and algebraic data types
05:05:59	<Inst>	what would a monadic structure over an object look like?
05:06:09	<Inst>	OCaml / C++ / Java etc
05:06:25	<EvanR>	monadic structure pertains to a Functor, not an object
05:07:38	<EvanR>	but there have been monad interfaces in those languages
05:07:59	<EvanR>	without syntax sugar it's a bit annoying
05:08:03	<hololeap>	if you're thinking of generic "objects" in other langauges, the monad interface is how to string them together, not how to construct them in general
05:08:37	<Inst>	>>= is about composability of functions that are a -> m a, the join cancels out of the m
05:08:45	<EvanR>	no join doesn't
05:08:57	<EvanR>	you stay in the m
05:09:01	<Inst>	it cancels out m (m a) into (m a)
05:09:07	<Inst>	otherwise you'd end up with monadic stacking
05:09:11	<EvanR>	monad's don't let you leave, unlike comonads
05:09:26	<EvanR>	which don't let you enter
05:09:34	<hololeap>	and the basic monads in haskell are very close to the complete set of all possible monads available in any language. Maybe, State, Reader, Writer, Cont... it's very difficult to find a monad that isn't expressible as (a combination of) any of these
05:10:08	<Inst>	EvanR: yeah, I'm aware, and that's been annoying at times
05:10:13	<Inst>	would be nice to just kill the monad sometimes
05:11:13	<Inst>	except, of course :)
05:11:24	<EvanR>	maybe you'd like comonads then, you can leave any time
05:11:25	<Inst>	what happens if it's a maybe type with a value constructor of Nothing?
05:11:43	<Inst>	how could you intelligibly define a extract against Nothing?
05:11:51	<EvanR>	Maybe isn't a Comonad
05:11:55	<hololeap>	you can't because Maybe is not a comonad
05:11:58	<Inst>	because of that reason
05:11:58	<Axman6>	> join Nothing
05:11:59	<lambdabot>	Nothing
05:12:00	<dibblego>	it's a semi-comonad though
05:12:11	<Axman6>	> join (Just Nothing)
05:12:12	<lambdabot>	Nothing
05:12:17	<dibblego>	@type fmap Just
05:12:18	<hololeap>	a properly defined comonad always needs a value to extract
05:12:18	<lambdabot>	Functor f => f a -> f (Maybe a)
05:13:26	<dibblego>	we gettin' the annual monad anti-tutorial outta the way early? :)
05:13:48	<EvanR>	at some point was there comonadic IO called OI floating around?
05:14:13	←	sonny parts (~sonny@bras-base-london1483w-grc-32-70-52-175-166.dsl.bell.ca) ()
05:14:22	<hololeap>	no, because a comonad needs a natural transformation back to Identity, and IO doesn't have that
05:14:36	<dolio>	People floated the idea, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.
05:14:48	<dibblego>	OI was discussed a while back
05:14:59	<hololeap>	unsafePerformIO?
05:15:07	<EvanR>	oh
05:15:39	<Inst>	also, just to make it simple, Identity monad: just a type constructor that does nothing but block a -> a functions?
05:15:47	<Inst>	without fmap / bind, of course
05:16:26	<hololeap>	it doesn't do anything but wrap any value in the Identity constructor
05:17:09	<hololeap>	it's supposed to be a way of describing pure values in the context of something that needs a functor/monad
05:17:39	<hololeap>	like how id doesn't do anything but return the value you give it
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05:18:58	<hololeap>	which seems useless until you need something that takes an (a -> a) function and you need the most basic case
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05:22:51	<EvanR>	you need something takes a resistor, so you give it a zero ohm link in a resistor package xD
05:23:00	<hololeap>	this is why State = StateT s Identity -- `StateT s` takes a type constructor as an argument, so if you don't need one, you pass it Identity
05:23:02	<EvanR>	you have something that takes a resistor
05:23:26	<hololeap>	*State s = StateT s Identity
05:26:54	<hololeap>	the zero ohm link is the zero element in the monoid of resistor arrays
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05:35:03	<Axman6>	EvanR: OI is what we call ExceptT in Australia, OI YouFuckedUpMate IO a
05:35:25	<EvanR>	oof
05:36:36	<Axman6>	OI YouFuckedUpMate IO eh* which when runs gives you back IO (Either YouFuckedUpMate eh)
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05:57:27	<albet70>	"🟢 Axman6 :albet70: are you sure that's the beaviour you want?That would ve a very unusual thing to do", yes
05:58:04	<Axman6>	so, you specifically want to print the result, and then produce something of type ExceptT () IO a?
05:58:28	<Axman6>	far out, what's going on with my typing today
05:59:03	<Axman6>	"So you specifically want to print the result, and produce something of type ExceptT () IO a?"
06:00:44	<albet70>	"Axman6 :so, you specifically want to print the result, and then produce something of type ExceptT () IO a?", paste.tomsmeding.com/DQWLn8rX
06:01:47	<ymirhotfoot55>	Dear Haskellers, the picture is wonderful:
06:01:49	<albet70>	short circuit a IO action list
06:01:53	<ymirhotfoot55>	http://lucacardelli.name/Topics/TheoryOfObjects/ObjectSubject.html
06:02:46	<ymirhotfoot55>	I am glad to see that John Stewart Bell's is finally making it through to
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06:03:34	<ymirhotfoot55>	the great Tribe of Objectivists!
06:04:05	<ymirhotfoot55>	Jogn Stewart Bell's Second Theorem.
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06:05:00	<ymirhotfoot55>	Naturally, a beginner in Haskell will ask:
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06:05:23	<ymirhotfoot55>	Can all the three views be consistent?
06:05:44	<ymirhotfoot55>	John, not Jogn.
06:07:03	<Axman6>	albet70: personally, I would use liftIO $ do print "greater ..." >> print x; throwE (). reusing the () from the print feels awkward to me
06:10:22	<Axman6>	ymirhotfoot55: What does this have to do with HAskell?
06:11:25	<ymirhotfoot55>	Well, I think Chris Penners inytoduction to a planned, ah,
06:12:14	<ymirhotfoot55>	I will not say, a Lisp, but a more flexiible Haskell, as proposed in
06:12:21	<ymirhotfoot55>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZmPuz9m2t0
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06:13:48	<ymirhotfoot55>	One famous case of the General Problem of Consistency
06:14:15	<ymirhotfoot55>	is Bell's Second Theorem.
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06:15:03	<ymirhotfoot55>	I do not know haskell, I have actually written 'hello world',
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06:15:32	<ymirhotfoot55>	well, no, but I once wrote 'hello Penrose Inverse' in Haskell.
06:16:58	<ymirhotfoot55>	'hello world' was a mite offputting, with the giant builtin Monad
06:17:09	<ymirhotfoot55>	IO beging required.
06:18:04	<Axman6>	"giant"
06:18:06	<Axman6>	@src IO
06:18:06	<lambdabot>	Source not found. There are some things that I just don't know.
06:18:09	<Axman6>	:(
06:18:33	<Axman6>	@hoogle IO
06:18:34	<lambdabot>	Prelude data IO a
06:18:34	<lambdabot>	module System.IO
06:18:34	<lambdabot>	System.IO data IO a
06:18:48	<ymirhotfoot55>	Conjecture: the type guessing and type checking of Haskell uses something like\
06:18:49	<ymirhotfoot55>	a (very special) SAT solver.
06:19:14	<c_wraith>	nah. It's way simpler than that
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06:19:43	<Axman6>	just plain old hindley-milner
06:20:01	<Axman6>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley–Milner_type_system
06:20:34	<ymirhotfoot55>	Yes, I supected it to be special, and in many cases, quick and easy.
06:20:55	<Axman6>	it's about as simple as a useful type system can get
06:21:06	<Axman6>	not always quick though
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06:22:12	<ymirhotfoot55>	O was impressed with Loader's result that the for real simply typed lambda calculus
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06:22:48	<ymirhotfoot55>	with some specal concret types added, also with actual elements of the rtpes specified,
06:23:25	<ymirhotfoot55>	gets you to Turing Machines Unlimited.
06:23:47	<razetime>	anyone program haskell on vim?
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06:24:26	<razetime>	i've been trying to use vim with vim-haskell plugin lately and it often flubs on indentation.
06:24:34	<ymirhotfoot55>	I have heard that when K. Goedel was presented with
06:26:28	<ymirhotfoot55>	Alonzo Church's proof that Herbrand-Goedel style "recursive function computer systems"
06:27:33	<ymirhotfoot55>	compited the same set of functions as Church's "lambda calculus" machine,
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06:28:25	<ymirhotfoot55>	Goedel saw that Church's machine was
06:28:39	<ymirhotfoot55>	a weird machine.
06:29:11	<ymirhotfoot55>	loke unto the dirty page macgine on x86 computer chips.
06:29:28	<ymirhotfoot55>	Phil Wadler tells the story.
06:30:25	<ymirhotfoot55>	Goedel no doubted that Herbrand-Foeded could be right, as an
06:31:05	<ymirhotfoot55>	analysis of compiyability.
06:31:20	<ymirhotfoot55>	No compuled, computed.
06:32:00	<ymirhotfoot55>	Not "compiled", "computed".
06:32:57	<ymirhotfoot55>	now doubted
06:33:56	<ymirhotfoot55>	Oi, I must be more careful with this hard to use keyboard.
06:35:53	<ymirhotfoot55>	@Axman6 thank you for reference!
06:35:53	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
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06:41:22	<ymirhotfoot55>	'@Axman6' conceptually giant.
06:41:55	<ymirhotfoot55>	The dread Input-Output!
06:42:45	<Axman6>	I have absolutely no idea what you're on about ymirhotfoot55
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06:44:15	<ymirhotfoot55>	Dear '@Axman6', I am just happy to be in IRC again, so
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06:45:00	<Axman6>	ok, well you're not making much sense. Do you have any questions about Haskell?
06:45:43	<ymirhotfoot55>	perhaps I am a mite loose in my associations and a mite obscure in my speech.
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06:46:40	<ymirhotfoot55>	Well, I suspect that a "type class", when, as happens sometimes,
06:47:13	<ymirhotfoot55>	"automayically" hands you an instance, that we are close to the
06:47:45	<ymirhotfoot55>	universal algebra mecganism of giving
06:47:57	<ymirhotfoot55>	an algebra by giving
06:48:05	<ymirhotfoot55>	generators and relations.
06:48:06	<Axman6>	Are you a markov chain trained on #haskell and Elizabethan English?
06:48:11	<ymirhotfoot55>	Is this so?
06:48:45	<Axman6>	I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to ask
06:48:47	<ymirhotfoot55>	No. Or if I am I am iperate with unkimited k-feams, and
06:49:11	<ymirhotfoot55>	I have enough dinebstions that I am not boind by by Earth's
06:49:20	<Axman6>	I'm getting pretty close to using my new found OP powers to kick you ymirhotfoot55
06:49:41	<ymirhotfoot55>	speed of signal 3+1 dimension limitations.
06:49:47	<hololeap>	I'm getting some new vocab here... "dinebstions" "boind"
06:50:17	<ymirhotfoot55>	as pelling: Please accept apologies!
06:51:07	<ymirhotfoot55>	as spelling, that is better.
06:51:55	<ymirhotfoot55>	'@Axman6' serious question, why no mention of
06:52:29	<ymirhotfoot55>	Galois correpondeces in the beginnersl literature on type classes?
06:53:21	<Axman6>	I've been programming in Haskell for over a decade and never heard of "Galois correpondeces", so I suspect because no one needs to know what they are to use Haskell
06:53:29	<hololeap>	because deep theory is irrelevant to most newcomers looking to learn a language?
06:53:46	<ymirhotfoot55>	'@Axman5' I will ask ny type class question again.
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06:54:06	<hololeap>	just write it yourself if you think it needs to exist so badly
06:55:04	<ymirhotfoot55>	Hololeap, thank you for suggestion!
06:55:09	<ymirhotfoot55>	No josh.
06:55:31	<hololeap>	there are tutorials on category theory for haskell programmers that exist because someone decided to make them
06:55:59	<ymirhotfoot55>	Rtpe class question: Sometimes, a declaration of a type class results is a sibfle
06:56:12	<ymirhotfoot55>	most geberal instance being defined.
06:56:22	<ymirhotfoot55>	Defined automatically.
06:56:22	<Axman6>	"rtpe"? "sibfle"?
06:56:30	<ymirhotfoot55>	Wgeb does this happen?
06:56:36	<ymirhotfoot55>	Thanks.
06:57:13	<ymirhotfoot55>	When, not Wgeb.
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06:57:53	<Axman6>	rtpe = type? sibfle = ?
06:58:03	<ymirhotfoot55>	single most general
06:58:45	<ymirhotfoot55>	Yes, Type class question
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07:00:07	<hololeap>	can you give an example that illustrates your question?
07:00:18	<Axman6>	ok, so we've got to a point where that sentense's words are understandable, now to try and decipher what you're actually trying to say
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07:03:25	<ymirhotfoot55>	Consider giving a group by giving
07:04:04	<ymirhotfoot55>	three generators a, b, c; then giving some relations, say
07:04:33	<Axman6>	please stop using the return key as punctuation, if you look at the lasy hour's history of this channel, it's almost all you saying half sentenses with typos. at least make typos on one line
07:04:41	<ymirhotfoot55>	a^-1 * b * a = c^17
07:04:57	<ymirhotfoot55>	Thanks, '@Axman6'.
07:06:08	<ymirhotfoot55>	Though are many froups geberated by am bm c, which satisft the relation, there is one that is special, namely the least constrained sych group.
07:06:48	<ymirhotfoot55>	Does an analogue if this happen with type classes?
07:07:04	<ymirhotfoot55>	groups, not froups.
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07:08:06	<hololeap>	I'm not sure how type classes relate to groups. for instance, there is no notion of an inverse for type classes
07:09:23	<ymirhotfoot55>	hololeap, here is the sort of onkects that I think may come in here:
07:09:34	<ymirhotfoot55>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_clause
07:10:04	<ymirhotfoot55>	Oi, Sorry for linefeed!
07:12:12	<hololeap>	there is also no disjunction for typeclasses, unfortunately. you can't specify that a type is either a member of Show _or_ Eq in practice
07:12:25	<ymirhotfoot55>	Here is a pdf on the sort of thating that reading about type classes suggested to me; https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82190596.pdf I wish there were ab arXive version, and I will look now.
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07:16:21	<ymirhotfoot55>	hololeap, yes, that meta-constraint on the allowable constraints of a type class definition is in part what makes me suspect that often one does get a "most free" instance.
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07:23:34	<ymirhotfoot55>	hololeap and '@Axman6' I began to write out a note for this IRC session, but I realized 1. that note would be a bit long, and 2. I should look at some published stuff.
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07:35:57	<ymirhotfoot55>	The paper by Makowski looks very good, and seems to have most of what led me to think about "automatic instances" if type classes. IWJKNAL OF COMPUTER AND SYSTEM SCIENCES 34, 266-292 (1987)
07:35:57	<ymirhotfoot55>	Why Horn Formulas Matter in Computer Science:
07:35:58	<ymirhotfoot55>	Initial Structures and Generic Examples
07:35:58	<ymirhotfoot55>	J. A. MAKOWSKY
07:35:59	<ymirhotfoot55>	The Encyclopedia of Mathematics article looks useful too: https://encyclopediaofmath.org/wiki/Horn_clauses,_theory_of
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07:37:18	<ymirhotfoot55>	Dear Haskell folk, thank you! and Heaven forwarding, I will be back before the snows melt.
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07:37:41	<hololeap>	speaking independently, there are a _lot_ of references in that paper you linked that I would have to read through to get an understanding sufficient to even attempt to answer your question
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07:41:41	<ymirhotfoot55>	hololeap, I am not joking when I say that I think, for some folk, starting with the sort of stuff in that paper is the right way to learn Haskell. Basic, which I like has, or had wgeb I was in grade school in the middle of the last century, one big advantage: most people already, if they got to high school, already had a command of the
07:41:42	<ymirhotfoot55>	presenting ideas.
07:43:37	<hololeap>	it seems like something that is worth looking into, but I can't give you any answers with my current knowledge. maybe someone else can, but you'll have better luck formulating your question with specific examples most haskellers will understand
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07:45:25	<ymirhotfoot55>	But for Haskell I might start with the elementary theory of Galois connections, then do the Conpleteness Theorem for the lower predicate calculus, then, ah, well then set them down at the repl. Of course, talking to people who know, and practice, are the most important things.
07:46:05	<ymirhotfoot55>	hololeap, I am actually leaving now. Good night!
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08:09:01	×	takuan quits (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	td_ quits (~td@94.134.91.23) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	Kaiepi quits (~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	lemonsnicks quits (~lemonsnic@cpc159519-perr18-2-0-cust114.19-1.cable.virginm.net) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	juhp quits (~juhp@128.106.188.82) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	AlexNoo quits (~AlexNoo@178.34.162.219) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	tzh quits (~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	Erutuon quits (~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	xsperry quits (~xs@user/xsperry) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	mstksg quits (~jle`@cpe-23-240-75-236.socal.res.rr.com) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	werneta quits (~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	tremon quits (~tremon@217-120-53-183.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	kawpuh quits (~kawpuh@66.42.81.80) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	n3t quits (n3t@user/n3t) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	xsarnik quits (xsarnik@lounge.fi.muni.cz) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	polux quits (~polux@51.15.169.172) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	wrengr quits (~wrengr@150.12.83.34.bc.googleusercontent.com) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	simpleauthority quits (~simpleaut@user/simpleauthority) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	motherfsck quits (~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (.net .split)
08:09:01	×	nurupo quits (~nurupo.ga@user/nurupo) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	puke quits (~puke@user/puke) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	Codaraxis_ quits (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	hyiltiz quits (~quassel@31.220.5.250) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	gentauro quits (~gentauro@user/gentauro) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	ishutin quits (~ishutin@178-164-188-6.pool.digikabel.hu) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	byorgey quits (~byorgey@155.138.238.211) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	forell quits (~forell@user/forell) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	koolazer quits (~koo@user/koolazer) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	remedan quits (~remedan@octo.cafe) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	SoF quits (~skius@user/skius) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	emergence quits (~emergence@vm0.max-p.me) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	biberu quits (~biberu@user/biberu) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	bliminse quits (~bliminse@host86-186-17-7.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	mjs2600 quits (~mjs2600@c-24-91-3-49.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	tristanC quits (~tristanC@user/tristanc) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	drewr quits (~drew@user/drewr) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	hueso quits (~root@user/hueso) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	vgtw quits (~vgtw@c-2359205c.07-348-756d651.bbcust.telenor.se) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	mrmr quits (~mrmr@user/mrmr) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	aku quits (~aku@163.172.137.34) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	Jing quits (~hedgehog@240e:390:7c53:a7e1:15fa:c22e:b1fb:575a) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	notzmv quits (~zmv@user/notzmv) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	[_] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	dyeplexer quits (~dyeplexer@user/dyeplexer) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	sabx quits (~sabbas@user/sabbas) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	emf quits (~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:b9c2) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	mvk quits (~mvk@2607:fea8:5cdd:f000::55f8) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	TonyStone quits (~TonyStone@2603-7080-8607-c36a-9cdb-69bc-753b-1e50.res6.spectrum.com) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	ouestbillie quits (~gallup@192-222-138-215.qc.cable.ebox.net) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	vglfr quits (~vglfr@88.155.96.35) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	remexre quits (~remexre@user/remexre) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	kimjetwav quits (~user@2607:fea8:2363:8f00:62f3:c8e:2d83:a34f) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	johnw quits (~johnw@2607:f6f0:3004:1:c8b4:50ff:fef8:6bf0) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	econo quits (uid147250@user/econo) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	zaquest quits (~notzaques@5.130.79.72) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	cls quits (~cls@chalk.lubutu.com) (.net .split)
08:09:02	×	sprout_ quits (~quassel@2a02:a467:ccd6:1:d9b7:23d6:79dd:2e64) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	aeka quits (~aeka@user/hiruji) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	xlei quits (~akans@pool-71-125-19-142.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	elvishjerricco quits (sid237756@id-237756.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	albet70 quits (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	choucavalier quits (~choucaval@peanutbuttervibes.com) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	Alex_test quits (~al_test@178.34.162.219) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	jrm quits (~jrm@156.34.249.199) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	Hafydd quits (~Hafydd@user/hafydd) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	stefan-_ quits (~cri@42dots.de) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	jespada quits (~jespada@87.74.36.188) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	haasn quits (~nand@haasn.dev) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	EvanR quits (~EvanR@user/evanr) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	dextaa quits (~DV@user/dextaa) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	jinsun quits (~quassel@user/jinsun) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	Hash quits (~Hash@hashsecurity.org) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	mtjm quits (~mutantmel@2604:a880:2:d0::208b:d001) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	jushur quits (~human@user/jushur) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	mud quits (~mud@user/kadoban) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	Megant quits (megant@user/megant) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	incertia quits (~incertia@24.42.241.219) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	caubert quits (~caubert@136.244.111.235) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	rubin55 quits (sid175221@id-175221.hampstead.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	sander quits (~sander@user/sander) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	absence quits (torgeihe@hildring.pvv.ntnu.no) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	infinity0 quits (~infinity0@occupy.ecodis.net) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	sus quits (zero@user/zeromomentum) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	yaroot quits (~yaroot@2409:12:ac0:2300:680e:dbff:fe1e:4953) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	ddb quits (~ddb@ipv6two.tilde.club) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	tito quits (tito@tilde.team) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	awpr quits (uid446117@id-446117.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	theproffesor quits (~theproffe@user/theproffesor) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	carbolymer quits (~carbolyme@dropacid.net) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	hrdl quits (~hrdl@mail.hrdl.eu) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	mrmonday quits (~robert@what.i.hope.is.not.a.tabernaevagant.es) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	obfusk quits (~quassel@a82-161-150-56.adsl.xs4all.nl) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	lagash quits (lagash@lagash.shelltalk.net) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	Techcable quits (~Techcable@168.235.93.147) (.net .split)
08:09:03	×	szkl quits (uid110435@id-110435.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	neverwas quits (jpneverwas@swissbox.unperson.link) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	bsima1 quits (9d7e39c8ad@2604:bf00:561:2000::dd) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	opqdonut quits (opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	nisstyre quits (~wes@user/nisstyre) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	greyrat quits (~greyrat@ip202.ip-51-178-215.eu) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	Clint quits (~Clint@user/clint) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	kristjansson quits (sid126207@id-126207.tinside.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	hexology quits (~hexology@user/hexology) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	landonf quits (landonf@mac68k.info) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	Logio quits (em@kapsi.fi) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	raghavgururajan quits (ea769b8000@user/raghavgururajan) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	totte quits (~totte@h-82-196-112-155.A166.priv.bahnhof.se) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	w1gz quits (~do@159.89.11.133) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	In0perable quits (~PLAYER_1@fancydata.science) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	iteratee_ quits (~kyle@162.218.222.107) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	ridcully quits (~ridcully@p57b52a9a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	dolio quits (~dolio@130.44.130.54) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	stilgart quits (~Christoph@chezlefab.net) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	enikar quits (~enikar@user/enikar) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	farn quits (~farn@2a03:4000:7:3cd:d4ab:85ff:feeb:f505) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	andjjj23 quits (~irc@107.170.228.47) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	tubogram4 quits (~tubogram@user/tubogram) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	Axman6 quits (~Axman6@user/axman6) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	Boarders_ quits (sid425905@id-425905.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	JSharp quits (sid4580@id-4580.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	ysh quits (sid6017@id-6017.ilkley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	saolsen quits (sid26430@id-26430.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	tapas quits (sid467876@id-467876.ilkley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	cbarrett quits (sid192934@id-192934.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	enemeth79 quits (sid309041@id-309041.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	bjs quits (sid190364@user/bjs) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	sclv quits (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	mrianbloom quits (sid350277@id-350277.ilkley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	dmj` quits (sid72307@id-72307.hampstead.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	acertain quits (sid470584@id-470584.hampstead.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	gaze___ quits (sid387101@id-387101.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	V quits (~v@anomalous.eu) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	SethTisue__ quits (sid14912@id-14912.ilkley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	hongminhee quits (sid295@id-295.tinside.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	bitmapper quits (uid464869@id-464869.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	modnar quits (~modnar@shell.sonic.net) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	sunarch quits (uid526836@user/sunarch) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	cosimone quits (~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:c24a:d20:4d91:1e20) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	kronicma1 quits (user27604@neotame.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	riatre quits (~quassel@2001:310:6000:f::5198:1) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	polyphem quits (~rod@2a02:810d:640:776c:e450:3ca3:b389:687a) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	noddy quits (~user@user/noddy) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	sphynx quits (~xnyhps@2a02:2770:3:0:216:3eff:fe67:3288) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	siers quits (~ij@user/ij) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	sim590 quits (~simon@modemcable090.207-203-24.mc.videotron.ca) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	retro_ quits (~retro@2e40edd9.skybroadband.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	terrorjack quits (~terrorjac@2a01:4f8:1c1e:509a::1) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	lally quits (sid388228@id-388228.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	hugo quits (znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	megaTherion quits (~therion@unix.io) (.net .split)
08:09:04	×	dagit quits (~dagit@2001:558:6025:38:6476:a063:d05a:44da) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	berberman quits (~berberman@user/berberman) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	adamCS quits (~adamCS@ec2-34-207-160-255.compute-1.amazonaws.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	fjmorazan quits (~quassel@user/fjmorazan) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	xdej quits (~xdej@quatramaran.salle-s.org) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	eco_ quits (~ubuntu@ec2-54-201-230-197.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	ldlework quits (~hexeme@user/hexeme) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	MasseR quits (~MasseR@51.15.143.128) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	Katarushisu quits (~Katarushi@cpc147334-finc20-2-0-cust27.4-2.cable.virginm.net) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	synthmeat quits (~synthmeat@user/synthmeat) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	hubvu quits (sid495858@user/hubvu) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	burakcank quits (~burakcank@has.arrived.and.is.ready-to.party) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	statusbot quits (~statusbot@ec2-34-198-122-184.compute-1.amazonaws.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	feetwind quits (~mike@user/feetwind) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	Ranhir quits (~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	robbert-vdh quits (~robbert@robbertvanderhelm.nl) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	Firedancer quits (sid336191@id-336191.hampstead.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	degraafk quits (sid71464@id-71464.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	glowcoil quits (sid3405@id-3405.tinside.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	carter quits (sid14827@id-14827.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	aweinstock quits (~aweinstoc@cpe-67-248-65-250.nycap.res.rr.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	pie_ quits (~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	[exa] quits (exa@user/exa/x-3587197) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	derelict quits (derelict@user/derelict) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	ystael quits (~ystael@user/ystael) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	ts2 quits (~ts@46.101.20.9) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	g quits (x@libera/staff/glguy) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	swistak quits (~swistak@185.21.216.141) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	Arsen quits (arsen@managarm/dev/Arsen) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	nrr__ quits (sid20938@id-20938.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	integral quits (sid296274@user/integral) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	gmc quits (sid58314@id-58314.ilkley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	dispater quits (~dispater@user/brprice) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	jamestmartin quits (~james@jtmar.me) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	vjoki quits (~vjoki@2a00:d880:3:1::fea1:9ae) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	ehamberg quits (sid18208@id-18208.hampstead.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	TimWolla quits (~timwolla@2a01:4f8:150:6153:beef::6667) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	TMA quits (tma@twin.jikos.cz) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	iphy quits (sid67735@id-67735.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	whez quits (sid470288@id-470288.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	_0x47_ quits (sid508683@id-508683.tinside.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	teehemkay_ quits (sid14792@id-14792.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	gregberns__ quits (sid315709@id-315709.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	MironZ quits (~MironZ@nat-infra.ehlab.uk) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	micro quits (~micro@user/micro) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	russruss quits (~russruss@my.russellmcc.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	S11001001 quits (sid42510@id-42510.ilkley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:05	×	NiKaN quits (sid385034@id-385034.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	tnks quits (sid412124@id-412124.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	marienz quits (~marienz@libera/staff/marienz) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	davetapley quits (sid666@id-666.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	rtpg quits (sid443069@id-443069.ilkley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	b20n quits (sid115913@id-115913.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	lightandlight quits (sid135476@id-135476.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	caasih quits (sid13241@id-13241.ilkley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	edmundnoble quits (sid229620@id-229620.helmsley.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	PotatoGim quits (sid99505@id-99505.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	travv0 quits (sid293381@user/travv0) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	philpax_ quits (sid516926@id-516926.lymington.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	jakesyl_ quits (sid56879@id-56879.hampstead.irccloud.com) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	Ekho quits (~Ekho@user/ekho) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	bbear quits (~znc@21212.s.t4vps.eu) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	dragestil quits (~znc@user/dragestil) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	welterde quits (welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	earthy quits (~arthurvl@2001:984:275b:1:ba27:ebff:fea0:40b0) (.net .split)
08:09:06	×	cawfee quits (~root@2406:3003:2077:2758::babe) (.net .split)
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12:11:32	<Benzi-Junior>	hey, I'm having trouble with stack, and I think the documentation is out of date
12:12:11	<Benzi-Junior>	I have a file Foo.hs in src and stack finds it but doesn't expose the module
12:12:38	<Benzi-Junior>	i.e. it puts it under "other modules"
12:13:00	<Benzi-Junior>	the documentation says I should edit the .cabal file
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12:13:45	<polyphem>	stack uses <project>.cabal to build, you have to add Foo.hs in .cabal under executable/library stanza under exposed modules
12:13:53	<Benzi-Junior>	but as far as I can tell, stack nowadays writes the .cabal file before doing anything with it
12:16:19	<polyphem>	stack generates a <project>.cabal file with only standard Main.hs and MyLib.hs files, you have to add your files manually
12:17:13	<Benzi-Junior>	polyphem, I tried editing the .cabal file but when I run "stack build" it stack writes over it
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12:17:39	<polyphem>	what ?
12:18:10	<yushyin>	do you maybe have a package.yaml hpack file?
12:18:26	<polyphem>	haven't seen this behavior of stack
12:19:03	<Benzi-Junior>	yushyin, yes,
12:19:21	<Benzi-Junior>	polyphem, it's something that changed a while back
12:19:31	<Benzi-Junior>	polyphem, it's been bothering me ever since
12:19:55	<yushyin>	yeah, i guess stack uses hpack to generate your cabal file from the package.yaml
12:20:22	<polyphem>	yushyin, Benzi-Junior : this has to to with hpack , right , stack alone wouldnt overwrite its .cabal file
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12:23:50	<polyphem>	Benzi-Junior: when you stack init , do you give a project template ?
12:24:11	<Benzi-Junior>	polyphem, no
12:25:30	<yushyin>	edit package.yaml to your needs
12:26:13	<polyphem>	how , yushyin said if you have package.yaml from hpack it will generate your .cabal from it, why you have hpack in the first place ? Do you need it ?
12:26:36	<Benzi-Junior>	yushyin, "rm package.yaml"
12:26:37	<polyphem>	yushyin: is hpack standard with stack now ?
12:27:22	<yushyin>	dunno, i don't use stack
12:29:28	<polyphem>	i have latest stack : Version 2.7.3, Git revision 7927a3aec32e2b2e5e4fb5be76d0d50eddcc197f x86_64 hpack-0.34.4 on debian, and it does not create package.yaml/uses hpack for my projects !?
12:32:41	<yushyin>	polyphem: 'Since Stack 1.6.1, the package.yaml is the preferred package format that is provided built-in by stack through the hpack tool. The default behaviour is to generate the .cabal file from this package.yaml, and accordingly you should not modify the .cabal file.' -- https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/GUIDE/#stacks-functions
12:36:04	<polyphem>	i have never seen an hpack/package.yaml in one of my projects !?
12:38:31	<polyphem>	what are you using yushyin ? plain cabal ? or nix ?
12:39:07	<yushyin>	ghcup+cabal
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12:41:16	<polyphem>	usually, i start with cabal init -i , then later i switch to stack with stack new , maybe stack sees my .cabal and in order to not overwrite it , doesnt generate package.yaml/juses hpack ... , maybe
12:41:49	<yushyin>	maybe
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12:43:19	<maerwald>	trash package.yaml
12:43:39	<polyphem>	Benzi-Junior: if your project is relativly fresh , only that foo.hs , try to rm all stack artifacts , then do cabal init -i (interactive) to generate your initial cabal file and then run stack new , that might work out not having to deal with hpack/package.yaml
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12:44:37	<polyphem>	i like stacks support for different resolvers/ghc versions , and externel packages and git source packages
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12:46:11	<polyphem>	havent had the need to tryout ghcup
12:46:37	<yushyin>	https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-project.html#specifying-the-local-packages
12:46:46	<yushyin>	https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-project.html#specifying-packages-from-remote-version-control-locations
12:47:17	<maerwald>	stack doesn't have any significant feature that you can't have in cabal... it's just a different usability approach
12:47:46	<polyphem>	yushyin: i erelativly often end up in a cabal state where it cant resolve dependencies , then i switch to stack
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12:49:59	<polyphem>	maerwald: yeah , i know cabal stepped up quite a bit , still i sometimes use stack sometimes only cabal , but cabal uses systeminstallation of ghc, and debian usually is not uptodate
12:50:09	<yushyin>	if you really wanted to, you could use the constraints file from stackage e.g. https://www.stackage.org/lts-18.21/cabal.config
12:50:21	<maerwald>	polyphem: then use ghcup to install a recent GHC
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12:50:29	<yushyin>	cabal can use any ghc you like
12:50:49	<yushyin>	and ghcup makes it easy to install many ghcs
12:51:03	<polyphem>	when i need some new ghc feature that debian doesnt have yet , i switch to stack and an different resolver
12:51:13	<maerwald>	sound complicated
12:52:25	<polyphem>	hmm , at least i do not have to learn yeat another tool, no offence against ghcup , havent used it once
12:53:19	<maerwald>	there's no learning curve
12:53:28	<polyphem>	but fp is flatly focusing more and more towards rust, dont they? wonder how long they will continue stack anyway
12:53:39	<maerwald>	stack is already abandoned by fp
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12:54:11	<maerwald>	https://www.snoyman.com/blog/babies-oss-maintenance/
12:54:20	<polyphem>	maerwald: oh, is it ?
12:54:55	<yushyin>	polyphem: in my experience haskell package from linux distributions are not for development, thus i use ghcup. i usually end up with many ghcs anyway so why bother with the ghc from the distribution
12:55:21	<yushyin>	IMO ;)
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12:57:47	<polyphem>	maerwald: i see
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12:59:33	<polyphem>	so ghcup installs different ghc versions per user or system wide , do i have to bend my links aka update-aletrnatives on debian ? ist it also managing cabal versions ?
13:00:01	<maerwald>	polyphem: ghcup installs into ~/.ghcup only and requires that you add ~/.ghcup/bin to PATH
13:00:14	<maerwald>	so you just prepend it to your path
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13:01:40	<polyphem>	maerwald: and ghc is to be fully quallified then like ghc-9.xy right or has ghcup like a subcomand to specifie wich ghc version ghc points to ?
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13:02:33	<maerwald>	polyphem: yes, it allows to set the default ghc symlinks
13:02:58	<polyphem>	oh cool , what about cabal versions, same there ?
13:03:25	<maerwald>	https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/about/#how
13:03:30	<maerwald>	it's all in the documentation
13:04:16	<polyphem>	sure , will have a look then to check it out , youre the author right ?
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13:09:01	<maerwald>	yes
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13:09:45	<polyphem>	maerwald: thank you
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13:21:59	<janus>	does anyone use tzdata? i want to make a game plan to make sure it is updated (maybe taken over) before daylight saving is due
13:22:42	<janus>	because the trustee guidelines say there must be a waiting period of 6 weeks, and daylight savings is due in ~24 weeks we may as well start planning now
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13:25:52	<polyphem>	SPJ said in a talk , they released a ghc version wich wen you had a type error would delete your source file , who got hit by that ?
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13:28:02	<fizbin>	Hey, when doing advent-of-code last month, on one of the days I came up with this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/DuK1vFhS -- I know I've seen something like it somewhere before, but can't remember the name. Anyone else know the thing I'm thinking of?
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13:30:11	<[exa]>	fizbin: looks bifunctorish or arrowish
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13:32:01	<[exa]>	and the actual type Both might be defined somewhere, perhaps in the vicinity of `Solo`
13:32:08	<geekosaur>	polyphem, https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/163
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13:33:32	<polyphem>	geekosaur: hahaha
13:34:56	<polyphem>	when creating a library , is it idiomatic to start with typeclasses that cork together and have differerent implementations for different backends ?
13:35:08	<polyphem>	s/cork/work/
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13:36:58	<fizbin>	[exa], The only pre-existing thing I can find called Both is in the both library, where it's just Maybe with a different Semigroup instance.
13:37:20	<polyphem>	or does it scare users away if they have to write instances for their type to use that library ?
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13:39:32	<[exa]>	fizbin: perhaps https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/Data-Functor-Product.html#t:Product ?
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13:39:57	<[exa]>	(tried an oldschool search for 'pair' :D )
13:42:37	<fizbin>	[exa], Yeah, that looks like it. I suspect that before I had seen this as :*: in GHC.Generics or the functor-combinators library.
13:42:50	<polyphem>	fizbin: i was latly thinking about parallel composition as contrasted to Compose serial functor composition
13:44:05	<fizbin>	polyphem, you mean like the difference between (&&&) and (>>>) ?
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13:44:49	<polyphem>	yeah , but (&&&) works on functions , or does it work also for functors
13:44:55	<fizbin>	I mean, in advent-of-code I just used Both for Both Min Max on day 24.
13:45:15	<fizbin>	polyphem: functions only. It's the wrong kind to work on functors.
13:45:59	<polyphem>	what about n-ary parallel composition , instead of pairing , like mappending multiple functors parallelly so noth Both but Many
13:46:29	<polyphem>	i like your Both class
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13:47:27	<fizbin>	Well, as [exa] found it's just a restatement of Data.Functor.Product.Product
13:49:58	<geekosaur>	162 was also some poor soul who discovered it in ghci
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13:54:33	<polyphem>	geekosaur: its not funny when it hapens to you, afterall
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14:02:28	<Benzi-Junior>	I have a type "Foo b a" and have been asked to provide an instance for "Applicative (Foo b)" and quite frankly I'm at a loss, there is no restriction on the type b
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14:06:18	<geekosaur>	there's no restriction on ExceptT e, either
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14:10:08	<geekosaur>	start by writing a Functor instance, then write `pure` for it
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14:10:46	<geekosaur>	this should give you enough of a feel for it that you can write <*>
14:12:53	<hud>	Hi trying to turn a function that takes two arguments and returns some operation into a bytecode stack, I understand from sample-code how to generate bytecode for mathematical ops, but what about defining variables and returning values? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/RNK6Qv6Q
14:13:16	<Benzi-Junior>	geekosaur, I have the functor instance, and actually <*> as well, the issue I'm having is how to write pure
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14:16:51	<polyphem>	installed ghcup and latest ghc , now warp doesnt compile anymore with this error , any suggestions : https://paste.tomsmeding.com/CBI6zmW6
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14:18:56	<jneira[m]>	maybe the package does not support ghc-9.2.1 yet
14:19:17	<jneira[m]>	did you get to build it with ghc-9.2.1 at some point?
14:20:09	<geekosaur>	try head.hackage? that looks consistent with the changes in 9.2.1
14:20:20	<polyphem>	jneira[m]: yea, but this error is about primitive types , that would affect a lot of packages , right , is there such a big breaking api change
14:20:32	<geekosaur>	yes, because of Apple
14:20:37	<polyphem>	geekosaur: how so ?
14:20:59	<polyphem>	as a version constraint in cabal file ?
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14:21:09	<geekosaur>	ghc used to treat all sized types internally as full CPU words. but the M1 requires all types to be their correct native sizes
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14:21:15	<geekosaur>	in its ABI
14:21:38	<geekosaur>	so Woord8# is actually 8 bits, and ghc can't get away with tossing around Word#s for them any more
14:21:39	<Benzi-Junior>	I feel like I'm missing some key insight, there is no way to default on the type "b" but I need to have "pure :: a -> Foo b a"
14:21:49	<jneira[m]>	the error looks similar to https://github.com/yesodweb/wai/issues/867
14:22:11	<jneira[m]>	oops already linked
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14:23:08	<geekosaur>	and yes, it causes a fair amount of breakage, but not as much as you might think because it's transparent if you're not actually operating on MagicHash-ed types
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14:23:39	<polyphem>	geekosaur: how do i use the head.hackage , what do y you mean by that ?
14:23:51	<lortabac>	Benzi-Junior: can you share the definition of Foo?
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14:24:07	<geekosaur>	http://head.hackage.haskell.org/
14:24:21	<geekosaur>	has a snippet for adding the repository to a cabal file
14:24:36	<geekosaur>	this repo is just patches to hackage packages to support 9.2.1 and HEAD
14:24:38	<jneira[m]>	yeah only a relative small number of packages deal directly with primitive types (and some of them are boot libs)
14:25:14	<polyphem>	.cabal or cabal.project ?
14:25:27	<geekosaur>	I think either
14:25:38	<polyphem>	geekosaur: will try
14:26:26	<geekosaur>	Benzi-Junior, there's an obvious way to deal if it's an Either-like type. if it's not, you need to state the problem (I presume this is homework and/or an exercise from the web) in more detail
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14:31:33	<geekosaur>	also I think a lot of package maintainers are waiting for 9.2.2 to drop later this month before adding support for it
14:31:42	<geekosaur>	especially so soon after 9.0.2
14:32:34	<geekosaur>	(and even more espeically since that dropped on Christmas so I bet a lot of maintainers didn't even get to look at it until January 3 or so)
14:33:35	<Benzi-Junior>	geekosaur, "Foo b a" should be a messaging agent that sends and receives messages of type "b" and at the end of communications should return a type "a"
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14:34:48	<polyphem>	warp works now , but now ther is this error https://paste.tomsmeding.com/k5mVUVO8 ; guess if have to stap back from latest and go to 9.0.2 with older base , no problem thanks to ghcup :)
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14:36:24	<yushyin>	i guess 8.10.7 is still the recommended ghc for a reason ^^
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14:38:55	<Hecate>	yes it is
14:39:06	<Hecate>	9.0 should be more advertised as a dev preview imo
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14:46:35	<jneira[m]>	and 9.2 to live in the bleeding edge 😜
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14:47:54	<geekosaur>	9.0.2 seems fine. 9.2.1 seems the dev preview
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14:48:22	<geekosaur>	(arguably all x.y.1 releases are dev previews, but that's more or less true of every piece of software :)
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14:58:50	<janus>	the next stackage nightly will have 9.0.2! yaay
15:02:06	<matrox>	9.0.2, not 9.2.1?
15:03:29	<geekosaur>	still too early for 9.2.1
15:03:48	<geekosaur>	and it's been stuck on 9.0.1 for a couple months now, waiting for 9.0.2 to drop
15:04:30	<geekosaur>	hopefully this means we will rapidly progress to having a useful 9.0.2 ecosystem
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15:05:08	<geekosaur>	the earliest 9.2.x I would expect them to support is 9.2.2, scheduled for later this month
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15:05:41	<geekosaur>	but various maintainers are moving slowly enough that I thing even 9.0.2 will be pushing things a bit
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15:05:46	<geekosaur>	*think
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15:07:01	<yushyin>	ghc9.2.1 is no fun without hls :/
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15:18:04	<jneira[m]>	we are on it 😅
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16:10:09	<polyphem>	geekosaur: stack is discontinued but stackage is still maintained ?
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16:10:38	<geekosaur>	stack is not discontinued, it is community-maintained instead of being an fpco "product"
16:10:53	<polyphem>	ah ,ok
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16:25:59	<tomsmeding>	my mind made a little jump at reading "stack is discontinued", half the haskell community would be in a frenzy
16:26:29	<tomsmeding>	never mind half, the whole haskell community -- the other half would just be gleeful instead of panicking
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16:28:00	<Taneb>	I'm sure there's a handful of people out there who think "cabal? stack? Why would I need something like that, when there's wget and make"
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16:40:30	<tomsmeding>	I mean, I made do with just make (without wget) for AOC, but that's hardly a production codebase
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16:40:49	<polyphem>	tomsmeding: sorry for the shocks
16:43:56	<mjrosenb>	I've yet to understand stack, and in general hate the idea of languages having their own package managers, so am 100% fine with this.
16:45:03	<geekosaur>	even C sort-of has one these days (pkgconfig)
16:45:32	<geekosaur>	libraries get ever more complex and just chucking a -lfoo on the end of a link command increasingly doesn't work
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16:48:50	<dolio>	Stack and cabal aren't package managers.
16:49:08	<mjrosenb>	pkgconfig is just a database that your one true package manager should be calling to update, like ghc-pkg
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16:54:00	<mjrosenb>	dolio: it may not be a package manager, but I'm pretty sure a package manager should be able to do everything that stack does, so whether it is or it sin't becomes a moot point.
16:55:53	<geekosaur>	package managers should be able to do more than stack or cabal do
16:56:01	<geekosaur>	try removing a package with either
16:56:11	<geekosaur>	they're build managers
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16:56:53	<dolio>	Well, that seems like an odd expectation to me. Package managers are built as infrastructure for (un)installing pre-built software for users. They're not build tools for programmers.
16:57:30	<janus>	can you remove a nix package? you just remove your dependency on it. with cabal it works the same way, no? so if cabal isn't a package manager, isn't nix one either?
16:58:19	<geekosaur>	many people use nix as a build manager instead of a package manager, yes. one could even argue that nixos is taking the path of abusing a build manager as a package manager\
16:58:34	<geekosaur>	how often do you have to "gc" your package manager?
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16:59:03	<mjrosenb>	dunno, apt tells me there are lots of pacakges that it can uninstall pretty frequently.
16:59:45	<mjrosenb>	there's even a flag that collects garbage, but they call it 'autoremove' or some such.
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17:00:39	<mjrosenb>	but in order to be able to build C programs, you normally need the -dev version of a library to be installed via apt
17:00:56	<mjrosenb>	or in gentoo, you just need the library present in order to get the necessary header files.
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17:03:32	<janus>	another gc for dpkg is called deborphan. there is also debfoster which is semi-automatic, asks you for every 'root' whether the whole tree can be uninstalled or pruned
17:04:10	<mjrosenb>	portage also has a GC built in, and recommends that you run it semi-frequently.
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17:04:29	<janus>	i run deborphan typically after each OS version upgrade since you'll have libraries laying around that autoremove somehow didn't pick up on
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17:06:52	<sclv>	i think if cabal-install ever gets the proper gc feature that mirrors that in nix, tracking roots, etc, then it'll be fair to call it a package manager
17:06:59	<sclv>	until then its a build system, which is fine
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17:07:04	<sclv>	that's what developers need :-P
17:08:05	<k``>	Is there a way to dispatch on whether there's an in-scope constraint? Like `case ifConstraint (Proxy (Show a)) of{ True -> show ; False -> \_-> "unshowable" }` ?
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17:08:56	<geekosaur>	there are ways but they're ugly and not something you should rely upon
17:09:00	<k``>	or like `case maybeContext (Proxy (Show a)) of { Just Dict -> show ; Nothing -> "unshowable" }` ?
17:10:17	<k``>	That's a shame.
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17:11:38	<k``>	I understand that you can't get proof that you don't have an instance globally, but it would be nice to determine whether there's one in scope
17:11:55	<mjrosenb>	would `class MaybeShow a where mshow :: Maybe (a -> String); instance Show a => MaybeShow where mshow = Just show; instance MaybeShow a where mshow = Nothing` work
17:12:03	<mjrosenb>	with some level of undecidable instances?
17:12:23	<mjrosenb>	like it would be perfectly reasonable for ghc to always choose the Nothing instance, but shrug
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17:12:40	<k``>	mjrosenb: When I've tried to create instances like that, GHC has complained that they are not just overlapping but identical, and refused to allow them.
17:12:49	<mjrosenb>	hah.
17:13:00	<k``>	Which, fair enough.
17:13:02	<geekosaur>	right, constraints don't take part in instance selection
17:13:10	<mjrosenb>	makes sense, since they're both more or less global.
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17:16:46	<geekosaur>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ifcxt
17:17:09	<geekosaur>	whether it works with recent ghc is a question, since this seems like it's skating on very thin ice
17:17:28	<polyphem>	do you have to Data.Typable.cast to a concrete type or can you cast to an constrained polymorphic type ?
17:17:34	<k``>	Yeah, from the one issue it seems abandoned.
17:18:08	<geekosaur>	I thought there was anothjer one but I can't find it :(
17:18:50	<mjrosenb>	https://i.imgur.com/9f8x6MF.mp4
17:19:29	<geekosaur>	polyphem, pretty sure Typeable only does concrete types
17:19:50	<geekosaur>	but these days it is based on something that can do indexed types, I think?
17:20:16	<polyphem>	latest ghc has support for impredicativity , does that change somthing
17:20:51	<geekosaur>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.0.0/Type-Reflection.html
17:21:51	<geekosaur>	no, impredicativity doesn't change anything, Typeable is just too simple to handle anything but concrete types. see the module I just pointed to for the indexed version, it might do what you want
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17:44:56	<k``>	It is possible to do something like `foo :: proxy c -> Maybe (Dict c) ; foo = Nothing ; {-# RULES "c" forall (p :: c => proxy c). foo p = Just Dict #-}` -- but as far as I can tell, the rule never fires...
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17:48:56	<[itchyjunk]>	Are list comprehensions always a syntactic sugar for some other thing?
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17:50:34	<geekosaur>	yes
17:50:36	<[exa]>	[itchyjunk]: they can be translated to list monads and `guard` and AFAIK there's even extension to allow the same for anything that allows these two
17:51:02	<tomsmeding>	% :set -XMonadComprehensions
17:51:02	<yahb>	tomsmeding:
17:51:07	<[itchyjunk]>	ah
17:51:09	<geekosaur>	they also can be translated to map and filter, although I think modern ghc always uses the list (or other) monad
17:51:40	<geekosaur>	@undo [ f x \| x <- xs, bar x ]
17:51:40	<lambdabot>	concatMap (\ x -> if bar x then [f x] else []) xs
17:51:40	<tomsmeding>	running `ghc -ddump-simpl` without optimisations on a file containing a list comprehension just gives me a plain-old recursive function
17:52:11	<tomsmeding>	so I guess you could say they just desugar to a normal recursive implementation?
17:52:45	<[itchyjunk]>	I think there is a very minor error here : https://wiki.haskell.org/List_comprehension
17:52:49	<[itchyjunk]>	"In the #haskell channel, or in a private message, say @undo and then your list comprehension, it will should you how it expands:"
17:53:00	<[itchyjunk]>	it will show you or it should show you, right?
17:53:14	<geekosaur>	I did that just above
17:53:33	<tomsmeding>	it will should be incorrect English indeed
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17:53:43	<bjs>	I recall from my old supervisor hearing of discussions early on about making comprehensions be generic over Monad
17:53:45	<geekosaur>	will show, I think
17:54:01	<[itchyjunk]>	so s/should/show/
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17:54:45	<tomsmeding>	% [x \| x <- Just 42, y <- Nothing]
17:54:45	<yahb>	tomsmeding: Nothing
17:54:49	<tomsmeding>	% [x \| x <- Just 42]
17:54:49	<yahb>	tomsmeding: Just 42
17:54:56	<[itchyjunk]>	Needs verified account so some of you should fix it? :x
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17:56:14	<geekosaur>	done
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17:56:41	<[itchyjunk]>	\o/
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18:10:19	<[itchyjunk]>	So it says some consider list comphrension unnecessary now because of "list monad" and it gives examples
18:10:29	<[itchyjunk]>	but what part of that code is the "list monad" ?
18:10:46	<[itchyjunk]>	Example : do c <- s return (toUpper c)
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18:10:52	<[itchyjunk]>	the whole thing is a monad?
18:11:22	<[itchyjunk]>	https://wiki.haskell.org/List_comprehension#List_monad
18:11:26	<[itchyjunk]>	first example there
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18:13:58	<polyphem>	[] a is a monad ; the effect is nondeterminism;
18:14:21	<[itchyjunk]>	hmmmmm
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18:15:29	<polyphem>	do c::Char <- s::[Char] ; return (toUpper c) == map toUpper s
18:16:20	<polyphem>	for each c in s do an operation on c and assamble a list of all transformed cs
18:17:48	<polyphem>	[c' \| c <- s , let c' = toUpper c]
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18:19:48	<polyphem>	you perform operations on a single element and the (nondeterminism effective) list monad gives you all possible solutions for all combinations
18:21:21	<polyphem>	> let go = do x <- [1..5] ; y <- [6..10] ; return (x,y) in go
18:21:22	<lambdabot>	[(1,6),(1,7),(1,8),(1,9),(1,10),(2,6),(2,7),(2,8),(2,9),(2,10),(3,6),(3,7),(...
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18:21:29	<[itchyjunk]>	So monads map one type to another type
18:21:49	<[itchyjunk]>	and whenever you do such things, you have to list all possible resulting types?
18:22:07	<polyphem>	you lift a type in a monad (context/effectfull computation)
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18:22:44	<polyphem>	list monad -> nondeterminism ==> a "lifted to" [a]
18:22:55	<[itchyjunk]>	in that go example, we go from type Int to type (Int,Int) ?
18:23:13	<polyphem>	maybe monad -> failure ==> a "lifted to" Maybe a
18:23:15	<polyphem>	...
18:23:21	<k``>	Int to [Int].
18:23:36	<[itchyjunk]>	ahh "lift", this is category theory lingo?
18:23:47	<xerox>	gym rat lingo
18:23:48	<polyphem>	go :: [(Int,Int)]
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18:24:05	<[itchyjunk]>	Hmm, why is it Int to [Int] and not Int to [(Int,Int)] ?
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18:24:53	<polyphem>	[itchyjunk]: map for example "lifts" a function a -> b to a context [a] -> [b]
18:25:19	<polyphem>	go ist just [(Int,Int)]
18:25:29	<[itchyjunk]>	oh i think i kinda understand that last example
18:25:29	<polyphem>	go doesnt take a parameter
18:25:49	<[itchyjunk]>	you have a `a -> b` but after application of map, we have a `[a] -> [b]`
18:25:55	<[itchyjunk]>	so map is some type of a monad
18:26:10	<polyphem>	fmap in general "lifts" a function a->b to a functorial context f like f a -> f b
18:26:19	<EvanR>	hey, [itchyjunk] have you heard of Functors
18:26:35	<[itchyjunk]>	I've heard of them but nothing more, they are maps between categories right?
18:26:36	<polyphem>	it transforms te function to work in a enriched setting
18:26:38	<EvanR>	like, list is a functor, Maybe is a functor
18:26:53	<geekosaur>	don't worry about categories for now
18:28:02	<EvanR>	probably better to sort out the ontological status of how a type (constructor) can be a Functor, before moving to monads
18:28:35	<EvanR>	for reasons
18:28:54	<[itchyjunk]>	Hmm, and to understand how type constructors can be Functors, i need to understand why there are categories in a programming language :s
18:29:00	<EvanR>	no not really
18:29:05	<[itchyjunk]>	I can imagine all the possible types forming a category
18:29:07	<EvanR>	in haskell Functor has a more limited scope
18:29:13	<[itchyjunk]>	oh i see
18:29:26	<monochrom>	I happen to be not convinced that you should care about the "list monad" part now.
18:29:28	<polyphem>	a haskell functor is a type that has a type variable, eg. [a] (List of a) and it exists a way to modifay the inner type via fmap , eg. for list: map toUpper ['h','i'] === "HI"
18:29:28	<k``>	I may be wrong about this, but I think when folks talk about 'lifting' they usually mean types. So when you apply `[]` to `Int` you get `[Int]` -- you've 'lifted' `Int` into `[]` (which is a Monad).
18:29:49	<[itchyjunk]>	lol haskell wiki defines it as
18:29:50	<[itchyjunk]>	"The Functor typeclass represents the mathematical functor: a mapping between categories in the context of category theory."
18:30:00	<geekosaur>	there is only one category here, so all Functors are endofunctors on that category. which is why I said don't worry about categories for now
18:30:04	<EvanR>	at the same time you lift your type using F, you lift functions with fmap
18:30:05	<monochrom>	And list comprehension is hear to stay. You are not learning an obsolete construct if you learn list comprehension.
18:30:11	<monochrom>	s/hear/here/
18:30:12	<[itchyjunk]>	geekosaur, ah okay
18:30:27	<geekosaur>	(the category is Hask, the category of Haskell types ignoring bottoms)
18:30:40	<[itchyjunk]>	well, i am looking at random list comprehension articles and they all bring up list monad :x
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18:30:54	<geekosaur>	right, but Monad is just as limited as Functor is
18:31:12	<monochrom>	So this is the difference between educational material and everything else.
18:31:23	<k``>	#HaskIsn'tACategory
18:31:23	<geekosaur>	the concept is from CT, but you can ignore that for all practical purposes. it's just a convenient pattern
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18:31:31	<monochrom>	Educational material does not sidetrack you.
18:31:53	<monochrom>	Encyclopedic material and blogs are all about sidetracking.
18:32:04	<[itchyjunk]>	lifting reminds me of yoenda theorem or somesuch that i can't remember anymore
18:32:24	<EvanR>	really? I barely understand, mainly don't understand yoneda xD
18:32:48	<monochrom>	Clearly, the web is full of the non-educational kind. The "clearly" can be seen once you consider the incentives for why people write and post on the Internet.
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18:32:56	<[itchyjunk]>	monochrom, oh so learning list comprehension is good. got it. the "some think its irrelevent and can be replaced" part made me question it all
18:33:05	<[itchyjunk]>	EvanR, well we had to learn that theorem in algebra
18:33:21	<EvanR>	dang... your algebra class beats mine
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18:34:21	<[itchyjunk]>	I think you could figure out all mappings between rings by knowing some limited information or somesuch.. man i can't remember anything
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18:34:45	<geekosaur>	[itchyjunk], in the end I'd say list comprehensions are convenient, so there's no reason for them to go away
18:34:55	<geekosaur>	half of Haskell is such conveniences
18:35:15	<EvanR>	my score on advent of code would have been much worse without them
18:35:16	<[itchyjunk]>	true, the set builder notation is what made me think of haskell being cool at some point
18:35:20	<shapr>	has anyone used the morpheus graphql library with the github API?
18:35:23	<geekosaur>	you could write something very close to what ghc calls Core, it'd just be fairly annoying.
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18:36:03	<[itchyjunk]>	yeah i saw the syntax for core.. i should really learn to read the notation for simply typed lambda calculus. last time i tried, i failed
18:36:16	<[itchyjunk]>	https://aosabook.org/en/ghc.html#s:core
18:36:28	<[itchyjunk]>	looks like hieroglyph to me
18:37:04	<geekosaur>	it's not as bad as it seems, mostly it's all the compiler-generated symbols that make it look like Greek
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18:37:16	<monochrom>	I don't have data, but if you collected data, you would find that no production code actually uses the list monad way where list comprehension could be used.
18:37:52	<monochrom>	Perhaps I should go ahead and delete that false sentence on the haskell wiki.
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18:38:12	<geekosaur>	go for it
18:38:29	<k``>	Core's prefix use of operators always gives me pause.
18:38:45	<[itchyjunk]>	well the statement says some people think that :P
18:38:59	<[itchyjunk]>	guess the "some people" is more rare than i though
18:39:06	<monochrom>	It probably was true like 20 years ago.
18:39:29	<[itchyjunk]>	Oh, the use of list comprehension grew rather than shrunk?
18:39:34	<EvanR>	back when IO was implemented as two sticks rubbing together
18:39:36	<geekosaur>	20 years ago they thought Num was a good idea. they tought Monad not having Functor as a superclass was a good idea
18:40:05	<monochrom>	I can't say it grew. But it is the alternative that died.
18:40:10	<k``>	Firsh it shrunk, then it grew.
18:40:16	<k``>	*first
18:41:21	<k``>	Since we have MonadComprehensions again?
18:41:44	<int-e>	EvanR: [Reply] -> [Request] is rubbing two sticks together?
18:41:49	<monochrom>	I think people don't use MonadComprehension that much either.
18:42:00	<EvanR>	yeah
18:42:14	<polyphem>	syntax got even extended some years ago , not ?, by groupings and such
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18:42:55	<int-e>	I don't even use the parallel list comprehension thing, much less the weird sql-like stuff.
18:43:22	<int-e>	and I merrily mix list comprehensions and do notation when working with list
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18:43:50	<int-e>	(do notation looks nicer when it's several lines... oh and having the end result, you know, at the end, is a benefit too)
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18:46:28	<polyphem>	int-e: comprehensions have a rather declarative feel as contrasted bey do's imperative feel , not ?
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18:46:52	<polyphem>	by
18:47:07	<int-e>	polyphem: there is that, yeah
18:47:24	<[itchyjunk]>	I was told "imperative" language is when you tell a language what to do and so haskell is "declarative". now we have a literal "do" :D
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18:48:03	<EvanR>	we also have don't
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18:48:20	<EvanR>	so that's about as anti-imperative as possible
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18:49:06	<monochrom>	Haskell is somewhat declarative but not very.
18:49:19	<polyphem>	haskell is the best imprative language thanks to do notation
18:49:48	<EvanR>	haskell should decline that award
18:50:02	<polyphem>	EvanR: hehe
18:50:21	<int-e>	Ah are we making bold declarations now?
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18:50:56	<monochrom>	Declarative is when you just say "in this graph find a node that stores an odd number" and you don't even say whether it's BFS or DFS.
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18:51:53	<EvanR>	sqrt x = the (\y -> y * y == x)
18:52:00	<monochrom>	Yeah, like that.
18:52:29	<monochrom>	To be fair, Haskell is a bit closer to that than most languages.
18:52:42	<dolio>	So you need to move to abstract stone duality.
18:52:49	<[itchyjunk]>	Oh, i thought declarative was when you say this is a graph and this has a node that stores an odd number
18:52:54	<[itchyjunk]>	Like you declare things to be so
18:53:11	<ephemient>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-dont
18:53:35	<int-e>	. o O ( PLEASE DONT MENTION INTERCAL )
18:53:56	<polyphem>	[itchyjunk]: a list comprehension declares what the list is , wheras in de list monad yout tell how to construct the list
18:54:24	<[itchyjunk]>	hmm
18:56:05	<int-e>	polyphem: but if it were properly declaritive, the order of the items (constraints) in the list comprehension wouldn't matter...
18:56:09	<ephemient>	https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/generalised_list_comprehensions.html are not trivial to translate into list monad. not sure how often that is used though
18:56:37	<polyphem>	[itchyjunk]: the <- in the do notation feels more like an := in imperative languages, the <- in list comprehension resembles ∈ from math notation
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18:57:23	<[itchyjunk]>	yes the ∈ is really nice for set builder
18:57:25	<int-e>	"declaritive" is a burned term anyway... hmm. "constraint programming" exists as an umbrella term, apparently?
18:57:53	<[itchyjunk]>	Tied to a chair while programming?
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18:58:13	<int-e>	no, that would be restrained.
18:58:13	<monochrom>	you're thinking "constrained" :)
18:58:20	<[itchyjunk]>	ah
18:59:03	<int-e>	also bad for circulation
18:59:10	<monochrom>	Pleasing a static type system can also be described as "constrained".
19:01:00	<k``>	Please a dynamic type system can be described as "constrained and blindfolded".
19:02:20	<polyphem>	int-e: order matters because they are list comprehensions wich have a notion of order instead of unorderd sets
19:02:56	<polyphem>	int-e: but you are right they are not 100% declarative
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19:04:03	<polyphem>	int-e: but they feel more declarative then the "do list monad"
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19:13:07	<k``>	Wait, is there any point at which do notation and monad comprehension notation aren't equivalent?
19:13:41	<dolio>	Comprehensions have a built-in notation for `guard`.
19:14:18	<geekosaur>	the fancy version of comprehensions ephemient pointed out above don't translate well
19:19:23	<monochrom>	You can and need to go up to MonadPlus to match guards in list comprehension.
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19:21:45	<glguy>	It's a shame guards aren't translated to fail, instead
19:22:20	<janus>	how can comprehensions translate stuff to guard if they don't require Alternative?
19:22:32	<monochrom>	Hrm, maybe fail and MonadFail suffices.
19:23:02	<geekosaur>	should be, the [] translation is just fail
19:23:25	<glguy>	(\m -> [x \| x <- m, x]) :: (Monad m, GHC.Base.Alternative m) => m Bool -> m Bool
19:23:40	<monochrom>	But MonadComprehension chose MonadPlus, yeah.
19:23:49	<glguy>	So at least on ghc 9.0.1, they switched to Alternative
19:23:54	<monochrom>	Some kind of overkill.
19:24:45	<monochrom>	I guess I am not innocent in this, I used to tell people "use MonadPlus's guard" too, perhaps that seeded this.
19:24:58	<glguy>	janus: both do-notation and monad comprehensions only require the constraints for things you actually use in the translation
19:25:15	<glguy>	do-notation doesn't even require Monad in the trivial case
19:25:26	<glguy>	:t \m -> do m
19:25:27	<janus>	right ok. and guard can only be used with MonadComprehensions surely
19:25:27	<lambdabot>	p -> p
19:25:46	<glguy>	(\m -> [x \| x <- m]) :: Monad m => m b -> m b
19:25:52	<janus>	so if i don't use that (don't think i am convinced of its utility yet), guards only appear when written
19:26:08	<mjrosenb>	ahh, monad comprehension guards, not pattern guards. I was trying to figure out how pattern guards would translate to fail.
19:26:09	<monochrom>	Right.
19:26:38	<glguy>	(\m -> [x \| Just x <- m]) :: MonadFail m => m (Maybe b) -> m b
19:29:11	<glguy>	we can recover the MonadFail translation with some extra mess <_< (\m -> [x \| x <- m, True <- pure x]) :: MonadFail m => m Bool -> m Bool
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19:29:44	<janus>	why does the monad comprehension users guide claim that 'guard' requires MonadPlus? https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/8.10.7/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#monad-comprehensions
19:29:59	<janus>	we just saw above that Alternative is sufficeint
19:30:00	<glguy>	janus: because it used ot
19:30:06	<glguy>	to*
19:30:08	<janus>	so the docs are just outdated?
19:30:25	<glguy>	Applicative and Alternative were late additions
19:31:02	<janus>	i am a late addition :O
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19:32:22	<monochrom>	You are looking at the doc for 8.10.7.
19:32:44	<monochrom>	The doc for 8.10.7 is, clearly, not outdated wrt 8.10.7 itself.
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19:33:26	<janus>	Alternative existed in 8.10's base. and even in ghc master this is the wording
19:33:52	<monochrom>	Oh oops the doc is outdated wrt the actual compiler.
19:34:17	<janus>	i dunno when exactly it could type as Alternative instead of MonadPlus or if it just looks at the signature of 'guard'. either way seems like a bug
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19:35:38	<monochrom>	The type of guard also says Alternative.
19:36:10	<monochrom>	Oh well social constructs need social maintenance.
19:36:44	<janus>	seems like Alternative was added in base 4.4 (ghc 7.2.1, released in aug 2011)
19:37:16	<EvanR>	the coffee must be weak today because I can't figure out how the function passed to 2nd extend in the definition of extend for StoreT here takes 2 arguments... https://paste.tomsmeding.com/v6ZZeIid
19:37:23	<janus>	oh no, it is also in base 4.3 (ghc 7.0 from nov 2010)
19:37:41	<EvanR>	where the heck is s' coming from
19:38:02	<EvanR>	oh... b is a function type...
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19:38:35	<EvanR>	🦆
19:38:55	<int-e>	quack
19:40:47	<janus>	'guard' was only changed to use the Alternative class in base 4.8 (ghc 7.10 from apr 2015)
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19:45:21	<janus>	ok i made an issue it is ghc issue 20928
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20:14:18	<maerwald>	I'm trying to debug a program time execution with '+RTS -p -l-au', but the callstack depth is main -> somefunc and it stops after that
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20:18:22	<maerwald>	I guess excessive inlining can do that?
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20:25:17	<byorgey>	anyone aware of algorithms for solving sets inequalities over a free idempotent commutative monoid? i.e. imagine you have a bunch of constraints, where each constraint is of the form U1 \subseteq U2, and the U's are arbitrary finite unions of variables and constants
20:26:17	<byorgey>	so e.g. you might have x `union` C `union` D \subseteq y `union` z `union` F and so on. And you want to find some solution for the variables, ideally some kind of 'least' solution, identifying each variable with a set of constants
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20:26:52	<byorgey>	I guess I can probably work it out but just thought I'd ask in case anyone has seen anything like this before.
20:31:38	<EvanR>	was that on day twenty-x of advent of code last month
20:32:51	<monochrom>	Allow me to transform and distort your problem.
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20:33:46	<monochrom>	We can always reduce set theory to propositional logic, (x or C or D) implies (y or z or F).
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20:39:47	<monochrom>	Then the resolution algorithm says, if you want to find a way to satisfy that, give me the negation instead, (x or C or D) and not (y or z or F). If the negation is doomed to be false, I will find a counterexample (therefore a solution to the unnegated sentence), or die trying.
20:41:54	<monochrom>	This plot may or may not work. But we'd never know if I didn't suggest it.
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20:45:12	<byorgey>	monochrom: oh, very good suggestion, thanks! The connection to propositional logic had not yet occurred to me.
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20:45:59	<byorgey>	EvanR: no, this is something I think I'm going to need for implementing a certain type checker.
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20:47:55	<byorgey>	monochrom: hmm, one problem is that just gives me T/F values for the variables, but I want values corresponding to sets of constants. e.g. one solution for this example would be x -> {}, y -> {C,D}, z -> {}
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20:49:09	<monochrom>	Yeah, in truth, predicates are involved. A set S is a predicate \v -> is v in S?
20:49:36	<monochrom>	(x(v) or C(v) or D(v)) implies (y(v) or z(v) or F(v)).
20:49:59	<monochrom>	Fortunately, resolution is about that, too, finding a value for v.
20:50:31	<EvanR>	that kind of reminds me of clicking on a screen painted with monoids and wanting to know which one you clicked on
20:51:20	<byorgey>	EvanR: https://diagrams.github.io/blog/2015-04-30-GTK-coordinates.html ? =)
20:52:05	<EvanR>	that actually exists
20:52:13	<monochrom>	onoes
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20:53:57	<byorgey>	monochrom: hmm, interesting, I have not seen resolution in the context of second-order logic before.
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21:00:47	<Guest72>	A haskell set is a Hask of course
21:02:01	<Guest72>	You can't ask are you undecidable
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21:16:34	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: sounds like the problem was finding x,y,z, not v in your re-written version
21:18:28	<int-e>	Guest72: This is very off season, but would you write Huskell programs for Halloween?
21:20:18	<Guest72>	Sure
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21:55:33	<random-jellyfish>	can I ask questions related to the euterpea music library here?
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22:03:53	<monochrom>	Yes but probably very few of us can answer.
22:07:51	<random-jellyfish>	##MusicTheory is invite only for some reason
22:07:58	<random-jellyfish>	would've been a better channel
22:08:24	<glguy>	no, it's not invite only
22:08:53	<glguy>	but it is empty so not much better
22:09:20	<random-jellyfish>	I was automatically banned from it when I joined: × ChanServ kicked you from ##MusicTheory (You are not authorized to be on this channel)
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22:10:06	<random-jellyfish>	anyway
22:10:09	<glguy>	ah, I guess the founders decided to close it
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22:10:19	<random-jellyfish>	[11:56:59 PM] <random-jellyfish> I have the following rhythm: qn qn den den qn en qn den den en
22:10:19	<random-jellyfish>	[11:57:32 PM] <random-jellyfish> where qn=quarter note, en=eight note, den=dotted eighth note
22:10:20	<random-jellyfish>	[11:57:42 PM] <random-jellyfish> what's the time signature for it?
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22:11:41	<polyphem>	is it 11/4 ?
22:12:37	<monochrom>	Damn those prime-numbered time signatures like 5/4, 7/4, 11/4, 13/8...
22:13:10	<monochrom>	Tchaikovsky and/or Mahler had some 5/4 sheninigans...
22:13:51	<polyphem>	16/8 or 8/4
22:14:30	<random-jellyfish>	yeah the fractions add up to 2/1
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22:15:06	<random-jellyfish>	so it's probably 16/8 or 8/4
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22:16:32	<polyphem>	or 4/4 with "borrowed time"
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22:17:09	<polyphem>	two bars of 4/4
22:17:42	<hpc>	i like my time signatures with a positive weyl curvature
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22:20:43	<random-jellyfish>	"borrowed time"? is that an actual concept in music?
22:21:28	<random-jellyfish>	you can't make a "clean" 4/4 bar with those notes in that order
22:21:44	PCLoadLetter	is now known as Hash
22:22:15	<Clint>	pick-up notes are an actual concept in music
22:22:39	<polyphem>	random-jellyfish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCQfekVrSAA
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22:26:25	<random-jellyfish>	thanks!
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22:31:02	<EvanR>	in Data.Category you have this class called Category for types of kind * -> * -> *. Say you have some type ctor f which is a Category. Exactly what "category theory category" is this referring to
22:31:49	<EvanR>	er, Control.Category
22:32:16	<EvanR>	is f literally some category, or what
22:32:25	<dolio>	It's a category whose objects are types, and whose arrows are given by the instance.
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22:33:32	<awpr>	IIRC it's poly-kinded, so actually the instance head is `cat :: k -> k -> Type`. then, for a given instance, the objects are the "types" of kind `k`, and the morphisms from `a :: k` to `b :: k` are the values of type `cat a b`
22:34:10	<awpr>	and the `Category` instance methods provide the identity morphisms and composition
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22:36:29	<EvanR>	oh that makes sense now
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22:37:31	<EvanR>	while fmap lifts a function from a to b to f a to f b, (.) does combining of morphisms directly
22:38:23	<EvanR>	and the category objects are really determined by k
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22:40:06	<EvanR>	so f is like the arrow, and we don't have a name for the category itself
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22:46:31	<Raito_Bezarius>	I'm trying to do simple i18n with Hakyll, so I tried to use Shakespeare, but I'm unsure how to understand https://hackage.haskell.org/package/shakespeare-2.0.25.1/docs/Text-Shakespeare-I18N.html#mkMessage function which seems to create instances
22:46:42	<Raito_Bezarius>	can I call it at the top level of my application to generate my instances or does it need to be scoped?
22:47:04	<Raito_Bezarius>	the Q [Dec] seems to be related to QuasiQuoter stuff, do I need to enable QuasiQuoter in my file?
22:48:06	<Raito_Bezarius>	and if someone have better suggestions to get type-based translations with a gettext-style, without getting onboard Yesod or other framework, that would be awesome :)
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22:55:17	<Raito_Bezarius>	ha, it seems like it is required to put under some instance Yesod App where ...
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22:57:29	<glguy>	Raito_Bezarius: I don't know much about Hakyll, but if you're looking at Q [Dec] stuff, the search term is TemplateHaskell. QuasiQuoters are related to but not this
22:57:42	<Raito_Bezarius>	Alright, thanks glguy !
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22:59:21	<glguy>	Raito_Bezarius: but if mkMessage generates instances, then it would need to be at the top-level of your module
22:59:49	<glguy>	and mkMessage does appear to generate data type declarations and instance declarations, so top-level
23:00:30	<Raito_Bezarius>	but hm whenever I do that, it seems like hls is complaining:
23:00:33	<Raito_Bezarius>	[typecheck] [E] Parse error: module header, import declaration
23:00:35	<Raito_Bezarius>	or top-level declaration expected.
23:00:56	<glguy>	Did you turn on the TemplateHaskell extension in that module?
23:01:31	<Raito_Bezarius>	indeed, that did the trick… thanks a lot glguy !
23:01:58	<Raito_Bezarius>	that's really super neaaaat
23:04:38	<hololeap>	I'm working on a long-running program that will need to have suspend/resume functionality. I've heard that ContT allows for this, but I've also heard that it has issues and should be avoided. Thoughts?
23:05:26	<glguy>	suspend/resume like all one process or across multiple processes?
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23:06:34	<hololeap>	just one process. it's going to have an updating work queue that should be saved so that it can resume if it stops for whatever reason
23:06:35	<jkaye>	What issues have you heard about with ContT? Interested just because I haven't heard that before
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23:07:08	<hololeap>	jkaye: I honestly don't remember. I've never used it and what I read was probably years ago when I didn't understand much
23:07:33	<EvanR>	you want the work queue persisted to disk and reloaded after the program reboots?
23:07:49	<hololeap>	yeah
23:08:20	<glguy>	oh, that's "multiple processes" then
23:08:35	<hololeap>	oh, I see what you meant now, glguy
23:08:37	<glguy>	ContT probably isn't related to your answer
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23:09:39	<hololeap>	ok, yeah as I think of it StateT makes sense to use. but then what _is_ ContT useful for?
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23:09:52	<glguy>	StateT isn't particularly related, either
23:10:13	<glguy>	You just need your work queue to be serializable and then save/restore it to/from disk when you need to do that
23:10:27	<glguy>	so don't save functions in it, for example
23:11:08	<EvanR>	unless you want to get fancy with higher order abstract syntax or something xD
23:11:20	<hololeap>	really? I would think that `StateT WorkQueue IO a` would make sense, where you save the queue to disk each time it updates
23:11:20	<dolio>	ContT, in particular, is just notation for using higher-order functions, so it's not going to help with serializing things to disk.
23:11:37	<glguy>	hololeap: StateT isn't doing anything there, you just happen to be using it
23:11:49	<glguy>	WorkQueue being serializable or not is what matters
23:12:02	<hololeap>	sure
23:12:11	<EvanR>	implement working Read and Show and you're golden xD
23:12:42	<EvanR>	*YMMV
23:13:13	<hololeap>	haha. I don't know if I'll ever find a use for ContT. it just never seems to fit anywhere
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23:15:04	<hpc>	i almost had a use for it once, but it turns out i needed to short-circuit the start of the computation instead, and switched to some goofy StateT IO thing
23:15:19	<hpc>	someday though...
23:15:32	<hololeap>	lol so it isn't just me then
23:15:46	<hpc>	knowing it is more important than actually using it though
23:16:04	<monochrom>	Firstly it depends on your answer to "resume from what?". For example, resuming from disk is very different from resuming from memory.
23:16:24	<hpc>	you can recognize the continuations in ParsecT and such, once you know the "base case" of ContT
23:16:48	<hpc>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsec-3.1.15.0/docs/src/Text.Parsec.Prim.html#ParsecT - the consumed/empty ok/err stuff
23:17:08	<hpc>	that's just a really elaborate (stuff -> m b) -> m b
23:17:21	<hpc>	foralled and etc
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23:18:37	<hololeap>	ok, sure. I've been using and slowly grokking LogicT, which someone pointed out is `forall r. ContT r (ContT r)`, if I remember correctly
23:19:20	<hpc>	oh, another funny thing to note
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23:19:34	<hpc>	there's no difference between s and u, in that ParsecT definition
23:19:55	<hpc>	just that every function on it has Stream s m t in the class context
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23:20:41	<jackdk>	ContT is good for taming callback pyramids
23:21:05	<hpc>	yeah, i think if i had ever messed with ghcjs i would have a dozen uses for it
23:21:35	<hpc>	webapps are callback city
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23:23:12	<hololeap>	doesn't FRP do a better job of taming callbacks, by making them unneeded?
23:24:17	<monochrom>	In the case of ParsecT and LogicT, you are looking at more Codensity. "Codensity m a" = forall r. (a -> m r) -> m r
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23:24:37	<monochrom>	ContT lacks that forall over r.
23:25:30	<monochrom>	If you like to think of ContT and then slaps on "forall r", that's OK, but the extra forall makes a whole lot of difference.
23:26:28	<hpc>	heh, that's true
23:26:32	<hpc>	like comparing ST to State
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23:27:21	<hololeap>	"Abuse of the Continuation monad can produce code that is impossible to understand and maintain." -- this is probably why I avoided it, jkaye
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23:27:49	<monochrom>	The benefit of the extra forall can be explained by looking at how System F manages to provide all algebraic data types.
23:28:25	<monochrom>	Suppose my ADT is "data T = C0 \| C1 Int \| C2 T T".
23:28:33	<hololeap>	it's the only monad that mentions abuse in the docs
23:28:55	<glguy>	don't get too comfortable, though; you can write unmaintainable code no matter what libraries you use
23:29:22	<monochrom>	In System F, it becomes "forall r. (r, Int, (r,r)) -> r", or after currying my tuples, "forall r. r -> Int -> (r -> r -> r) -> r".
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23:29:36	<hpc>	glguy: heh, as proof i submit acme-php
23:29:57	<hpc>	zero-import horribleness
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23:30:51	<hololeap>	"ContT is not a functor on the category of monads, and many operations cannot be lifted through it." -- this is also one of the other thorns that scared me. it reminds me of ListT's warnings
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23:31:29	<monochrom>	If you do a similar decoding to ParsecT, you can recover the original Leijen-Meijer "4 cases: {consumed, unconsumed} x {OK, error}" ADT in the original parsec.
23:31:57	<monochrom>	If you do a similar decoding to LogicT, you can recover the ADT of "ListT done right".
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23:32:44	<monochrom>	So LogicT and today's ParsecT are just doing a CPS or System-F encoding of very vanilla ADTs.
23:33:15	<hololeap>	isn't that called church encoding?
23:33:26	<monochrom>	Why do they do it? The answer is efficiency, or believed efficiency.
23:34:13	<monochrom>	Because which way is more efficient is pretty sensitive to which GHC version you use. Very old GHC, probably ADTs are slower.
23:34:34	<monochrom>	Today's GHC? I don't think anyone has any actual data. I bet ADTs are not slower.
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23:35:13	<dolio>	That's not a very good bet.
23:35:26	<hpc>	also would you want strict data or lazy data?
23:35:42	<hololeap>	I've wondered why there were church-encoded versions of e.g. Free and why it would affect performance
23:36:43	<monochrom>	Oleg would say that the untyped-lambda-calculus version is Church encoding, the System-F version is Böhm-Berarducci encoding.
23:37:07	<dolio>	It's kind of like betting that (co)yoneda is no longer faster in certain use cases, because GHC somehow figures out how to fuse fmap at runtime, without inlining.
23:38:11	<jackdk>	I remember seeing a talk presented by someone who worked at Seek, saying they used to use the `data Free f a = Return a \| Free (f (Free f a))`, had poor performance, and switched to the "Church Encoded" version. This would've been 2015 or so, though.
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23:40:07	<hololeap>	if anyone can point me to something that goes into more detail on this, I'd be grateful: https://stackoverflow.com/a/9806770
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23:42:03	<hololeap>	otherwise I'll just continue reading what pops up in a search
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23:43:36	<monochrom>	Yikes haha "aka Visitor Pattern"
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23:45:12	<jackdk>	that's an interesting parallel that I'd never noticed before
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23:46:15	<monochrom>	Yeah, "yikes" means "I see it's true but oh god". ("haha" means "god help us")
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23:47:53	<jackdk>	hololeap: https://slides.yowconference.com/yowlambdajam2017/Humphries-ContinuationsAllTheWayDown.pdf this shows the performance angle somewhat, but may be unintelligible if you didn't see the actual presentation (a recording of which never seemed to be published)
23:48:48	<jackdk>	but there are at least benchmarks, and if you trace the reductions of DList appends or whatever, you can see the right-association pop out. I remember going home after the talk and grabbing pen and paper to convince myself that it worked
23:52:51	<dolio>	Encoding the data type isn't always better, of course. They're bad for repeatedly peeling off just the outermost layer.
23:53:18	<dolio>	Unless you get really elaborate with the encodings.
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23:54:11	<hololeap>	jackdk: the syntax trees are neat, I think I might get something out of those slides
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23:54:34	<dolio>	Point being, you need to know what you're optimizing for.
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