Logs on 2022-01-14 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:22	<EvanR>	1 / (1 - Boring) = N
00:01:03	<monochrom>	"fix (print 0 >>)" can have type "forall a. IO a", equivalently "IO Void". This type can inform me that I have a non-terminating program and it is intentionally so.
00:01:17	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
00:01:21	<opticblast>	https://stackoverflow.com/a/33115522 is a good resource on unit vs void
00:01:34	<monochrom>	If "print 0" itself also has the same type, this is making types less informative.
00:02:12	<opticblast>	oh, right, and Void also means nontermination, as described in https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2017/07/to-void-or-to-void/
00:03:21	<monochrom>	But it all goes back to "I don't have information to give you" ≠ "I have impossible information to give you".
00:04:29	×	ouestbillie quits (~gallup@192-222-138-215.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
00:05:43	<EvanR>	I have exploding information to give you
00:05:45	<monochrom>	One more way to say the same thing: If "print 0" has type "IO Void", then it can also be trivially converted to the type "forall a. IO a"
00:08:45	→	perro joins (~perro@072-191-245-069.res.spectrum.com)
00:09:05	<sprout_>	neat, 0 bits of information is still information of absense
00:09:11	<sprout_>	ah well
00:10:14	<Raito_Bezarius>	I have some newtype Lang from Text.Shakespeare.I18N, I do import renderMessage, mkMessage from the module but whenever I want to do newtype coercion from Text to Lang using Lang someText, it fails with data constructor is not in the scope, does it ring any bell?
00:12:55	<Clint>	Raito_Bezarius: which version of shakespeare are you using?
00:13:22	<Raito_Bezarius>	shakespeare == 2.0.25.* Clint
00:14:08	<Clint>	Raito_Bezarius: i see https://hackage.haskell.org/package/shakespeare-2.0.25.1/docs/Text-Shakespeare-I18N.html#t:Lang
00:14:20	<Raito_Bezarius>	indeed
00:14:46	<Clint>	so, that's not a newtype
00:15:01	<Raito_Bezarius>	right ; hm, how can I lift Text to Lang then? is type only a type alias?
00:15:22	<geekosaur>	yes
00:15:31	<Raito_Bezarius>	alright
00:15:32	<geekosaur>	so it's already a Lang
00:16:13	<Raito_Bezarius>	hm hls got me confused
00:16:34	<Raito_Bezarius>	ah [Char] / Text stuff
00:17:49	<EvanR>	monochrom, actually, riddle me that again. If an IO action never completes, should it return Void or some variable
00:18:08	<geekosaur>	it just never returns
00:18:21	<EvanR>	I mean, which type is appropriate / inappropriate
00:18:22	<geekosaur>	the resulting type is forall a. IO a
00:18:36	<geekosaur>	:t undefined
00:18:37	<lambdabot>	a
00:18:51	<jkaye>	:t forever
00:18:52	<lambdabot>	Applicative f => f a -> f b
00:19:23	<EvanR>	I guess that's better than Void since it's polymorphic
00:19:43	<geekosaur>	right
00:22:02	×	max22- quits (~maxime@2a01cb0883359800c8a77c004bdd2128.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:22:40	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:6410:d0a3:c1e2:34d8)
00:24:51	tremon	is now known as tremon_
00:26:01	×	kaph quits (~kaph@net-2-38-107-19.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
00:26:40	→	bitdex joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
00:30:10	→	jkaye_ joins (~qicruser@2605:ef80:c:803f::60:fe3)
00:30:10	×	jkaye_ quits (~qicruser@2605:ef80:c:803f::60:fe3) (Client Quit)
00:30:14	→	jkaye__ joins (~qicruser@2605:ef80:c:803f::60:fe3)
00:30:14	×	jkaye__ quits (~qicruser@2605:ef80:c:803f::60:fe3) (Client Quit)
00:30:25	→	jkaye_ joins (~qicruser@2605:ef80:c:803f::60:fe3)
00:30:52	→	ouestbillie joins (~gallup@192-222-138-215.qc.cable.ebox.net)
00:31:18	×	TonyStone quits (~TonyStone@2603-7080-8607-c36a-9cdb-69bc-753b-1e50.res6.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:32:07	<monochrom>	If you have the Void type, then you also have the function "absurd :: Void -> a". Then fmap absurd :: IO Void -> IO a gives you one direction of conversion.
00:32:19	→	jedb joins (~jedb@89.38.225.36)
00:32:28	→	kaph joins (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
00:32:35	<monochrom>	The other direction is even easier, "forall a. IO a" specializes to IO Void.
00:32:42	×	amk quits (~amk@109.255.169.126) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:32:52	←	jedb parts (~jedb@89.38.225.36) (Leaving)
00:33:03	<monochrom>	I don't have a preference for either one.
00:33:08	<EvanR>	to dispatch a Void yell absurd
00:33:18	×	jkaye_ quits (~qicruser@2605:ef80:c:803f::60:fe3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:33:35	×	hughjfchen quits (~hughjfche@vmi556545.contaboserver.net) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
00:33:46	<monochrom>	But "forall a. IO a" requires less learning for most people.
00:34:56	<monochrom>	But there are also people who think that IO Void is clearer.
00:35:14	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
00:35:21	<monochrom>	And finally there are absurd people who opine that forever should be IO () -> IO ().
00:35:40	×	machinedgod quits (~machinedg@24.105.81.50) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
00:35:44	→	amk joins (~amk@109.255.169.126)
00:37:57	×	n3rdy1 quits (~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480::41) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:38:15	→	hughjfchen joins (~hughjfche@vmi556545.contaboserver.net)
00:39:35	→	fizbin joins (~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
00:46:03	<dolio>	Has to be () so that my overzealous warnings about do bindings don't kick in.
00:46:28	<jackdk>	Wouldn't `IO Void` do that too?
00:47:01	<dolio>	Maybe. I'm not sure IO a would, though.
00:47:24	<geekosaur>	should unify, I'd think
00:48:35	<Raito_Bezarius>	I might be mad but how possible would that be to turn a String into constructors in Haskell? given I have A X_1, B X_2 X_3, C X_4, can I have a way to do eval :: [String] -> A \| B \| C if args can be coerced to X_1, X_2, X_3, X_4?
00:48:43	<opticblast>	"to Void or not to void" describes this exact issue: of whether to use "IO Void" or "forall a. IO a" to represent nontermination
00:49:15	<opticblast>	not sure what you mean there Raito_Bezarius
00:49:25	→	kaph_ joins (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
00:49:52	<monochrom>	Use "deriving Read"?
00:49:56	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0_ joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:81d5:ec6a:a9b3:865a)
00:50:00	<monochrom>	> read "Maybe 4"
00:50:01	<lambdabot>	*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
00:50:09	<monochrom>	err need type sig
00:50:17	<monochrom>	> read "Just 4" :: Maybe Integer
00:50:18	<Raito_Bezarius>	let's assume I have data U = A String \| B Int \| C, I'd like to have some function such that eval "A" ["X"] == A "X", eval "B" ["3"] == B 3, eval "C" []
00:50:19	<lambdabot>	Just 4
00:50:21	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
00:50:21	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
00:50:21	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
00:50:22	<opticblast>	I wish read wouldn't default to @()
00:50:45	<monochrom>	Then what should it default to? Void? >:)
00:50:51	<opticblast>	nothing. it should never default
00:50:53	<geekosaur>	sadly it can't be controlled per fuunction
00:51:04	<opticblast>	a shortcoming of Haskell imo
00:51:10	<dolio>	Wrong.
00:51:23	<dolio>	It doesn't default unless you turn on ExtendedDefaulting.
00:51:27	<geekosaur>	type inference wants you to reconsider
00:51:37	×	kaph quits (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:51:40	<geekosaur>	well, it still defaults, just not to ()
00:51:41	<opticblast>	type inference is great, type defaulting is not
00:52:06	<monochrom>	OK I am OK with "should be a type error".
00:52:37	<geekosaur>	you can do `default ()`
00:52:57	<EvanR>	Raito_Bezarius, by eval do you mean parsing?
00:52:57	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:6410:d0a3:c1e2:34d8) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:53:30	<opticblast>	I think you mean ExtendedDefaultRules
00:54:01	<Raito_Bezarius>	ideally, I'd like to not parse manually EvanR and just have a very simple way to turn constructors strings into U
00:54:25	<EvanR>	usually that is what deriving the Read class does
00:54:39	<EvanR>	sometimes it doesn't work though and you have write your own
00:54:50	<monochrom>	> (read "Just") 4 :: Maybe Integer
00:54:52	<lambdabot>	error:
00:54:52	<lambdabot>	• No instance for (Read (Integer -> Maybe Integer))
00:54:52	<lambdabot>	arising from a use of ‘read’
00:55:03	<EvanR>	> show (Just 4)
00:55:03	<monochrom>	Oh haha darn.
00:55:04	<lambdabot>	"Just 4"
00:55:14	<EvanR>	> read "Just 4" :: Maybe Int
00:55:16	<lambdabot>	Just 4
00:55:42	<Raito_Bezarius>	EvanR: hm, but does not read works with String?
00:55:54	<Raito_Bezarius>	so I guess I have to use some Read' class which takes [String] rather than String
00:56:12	<EvanR>	you want to go from [String] to [MyThing] ?
00:56:20	<opticblast>	oh, so that's why you said you wanted to parse constructors
00:56:24	<Raito_Bezarius>	I want to go from [String] to U
00:56:25	<geekosaur>	I think we're still unclear on what exactly you want
00:56:35	<Raito_Bezarius>	alright, let me go into detail
00:56:41	<Raito_Bezarius>	so I am still using Shakespeare
00:56:53	<Raito_Bezarius>	Shakespeare uses type constructors for messages
00:57:08	<Raito_Bezarius>	But, I have some runtime parts where I only have [String] where first argument is message and the rest are parameters
00:57:19	<opticblast>	"type constructors for messages"? what do you mean by that
00:57:28	<monochrom>	> read (unword ["Just", "4"]) :: Maybe Integer
00:57:30	<lambdabot>	error:
00:57:30	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: unword :: [[Char]] -> String
00:57:30	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant one of these:
00:57:31	<Raito_Bezarius>	something like: data AppMessages = Hello \| Goodbye
00:57:31	×	jgeerds quits (~jgeerds@55d4bbed.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
00:57:40	<monochrom>	Oh, unwords?
00:57:42	<Raito_Bezarius>	with some renderMessage :: AppMessages -> String function
00:57:44	<monochrom>	> read (unwords ["Just", "4"]) :: Maybe Integer
00:57:45	<opticblast>	you just mean messages are a data type
00:57:46	<lambdabot>	Just 4
00:57:48	<Raito_Bezarius>	yes, opticblast
00:57:51	<Raito_Bezarius>	sorry for the wrong vocabulary
00:58:18	<geekosaur>	those are data constructors, not type constructors
00:58:36	<opticblast>	each message is its own data constructor, makes sense
00:58:36	<geekosaur>	big difference, were they type constructors you'd be looking at some pretty heavy lifting
00:58:37	<Raito_Bezarius>	right
00:59:52	<opticblast>	oh, I see what monochrom is getting at: concatenate the strings so that you have a string which can be read directly as a message rather than a constructor-with-arguments-remaining
01:00:06	<Raito_Bezarius>	ah right I see now, thanks monochrom !
01:00:21	monochrom	stretches low-tech solutions as much as possible. Never surrender, never give up...
01:00:50	<opticblast>	ironic that "parse strings into data types as soon as possible" is counterproductive here
01:01:53	<jackdk>	Does anyone here have a windows machine running haskell that can test something for me? Does `System.Environment.lookupEnv "USERPROFILE"` return something sensible, or does it need to be `System.Environment.lookupEnv "%USERPROFILE%"`? I don't have a windows machine to test on, but I'm trying to fix something in amazonka.
01:02:14	<Raito_Bezarius>	is there any tip on how to implement Read instance? it seems like Shakespeare do not derive it
01:02:56	<opticblast>	I can install haskell on my windows
01:03:00	<monochrom>	Perhaps look for "standalone deriving".
01:03:07	<Raito_Bezarius>	nice monochrom !
01:03:30	<opticblast>	oh, you can derive typeclasses for data types that you don't control? wow
01:03:42	<Raito_Bezarius>	seems to do the job, monochrom !
01:04:54	<monochrom>	The condition is that you can import all of the data constructors, i.e., the author doesn't hide them from you.
01:05:20	<monochrom>	And then probably transitively for the field types.
01:05:31	<monochrom>	"Conditions apply."
01:06:26	×	dhil quits (~dhil@cpc103052-sgyl39-2-0-cust260.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
01:06:57	×	fizbin quits (~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:07:51	<opticblast>	I don't think it's transitive -- you just need the field types to implement the same class (when that class requires it)
01:08:23	<opticblast>	Show requires all fields to implement Show, while Foldable doesn't, for instance
01:09:07	<opticblast>	actually, how does Foldable work recursively?
01:09:28	<opticblast>	oh, it's recursive when fields are also parameterized on a
01:09:54	×	tommd quits (~tommd@75-164-130-101.ptld.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
01:10:34	<opticblast>	and if a takes any position other than last in those types, you can't derive Foldable
01:11:21	×	albet70 quits (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:11:21	<dsal>	% :k Foldable
01:11:21	<yahb>	dsal: (* -> *) -> Constraint
01:12:45	×	pretty_dumm_guy quits (trottel@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/prettydummguy/x-88029655) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
01:12:56	×	acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d0c7271e85bcf2712229551d8e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
01:14:59	×	eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:17:28	→	albet70 joins (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8)
01:17:39	→	machinedgod joins (~machinedg@24.105.81.50)
01:17:59	→	acidjnk joins (~acidjnk@p200300d0c7271e85bcf2712229551d8e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
01:22:01	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:2c90:e64f:dd1e:6519)
01:25:17	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0_ quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:81d5:ec6a:a9b3:865a) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:26:12	×	perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
01:30:12	→	ahammer joins (~ahammer@2409:8954:8cc:52c1:3534:681d:f1d0:740c)
01:31:14	×	acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d0c7271e85bcf2712229551d8e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
01:35:01	×	pgib quits (~textual@173.38.117.86) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:37:15	→	eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
01:37:52	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:2c90:e64f:dd1e:6519) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
01:38:17	×	jkaye quits (~jkaye@2601:281:8300:7530:8293:8dc5:8087:f321) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:38:22	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:2c90:e64f:dd1e:6519)
01:38:23	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:2c90:e64f:dd1e:6519) (Client Quit)
01:38:34	<Raito_Bezarius>	can I print the standalone derivation or a data type in REPL?
01:39:00	<Raito_Bezarius>	I have some constructor X :: Int -> Message but read "X 3" :: Message fails the parsing
01:40:46	<geekosaur>	% set -ddump-deriv
01:40:46	<yahb>	geekosaur: ; <interactive>:108:6: error: Variable not in scope: ddump :: ASetter s t a b -> b -> s -> t; <interactive>:108:12: error: Variable not in scope: deriv :: ASetter s t a b -> b -> s -> t
01:40:52	<Raito_Bezarius>	thanks geekosaur
01:40:55	<geekosaur>	% :set -ddump-deriv
01:40:55	<yahb>	geekosaur:
01:41:09	<geekosaur>	% data X = X Int
01:41:09	<yahb>	geekosaur:
01:41:28	<geekosaur>	%% deriving instance Read X
01:41:29	<yahb>	geekosaur: http://qp.mniip.com/y/40
01:42:01	<Raito_Bezarius>	got it!
01:42:45	<geekosaur>	but now you have to understand ReadP and maybe ReadS to figure out what it's doing :)
01:42:54	<Raito_Bezarius>	figured it out too
01:42:56	→	acidjnk joins (~acidjnk@p200300d0c7271e85bcf2712229551d8e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
01:43:00	<Raito_Bezarius>	the parser seems quite sane
01:43:10	<Raito_Bezarius>	I just did not expect some { xxx = yyy } to appear
01:43:57	×	ahammer quits (~ahammer@2409:8954:8cc:52c1:3534:681d:f1d0:740c) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:48:02	<Raito_Bezarius>	thanks a lot geekosaur, opticblast, monochrom ; partial i18n on blog got \o/
01:48:49	→	ahammer joins (~ahammer@157.122.68.227)
01:49:23	<opticblast>	jackdk: you don't need the %
01:49:34	<opticblast>	in fact adding them makes it breka
01:49:57	<jackdk>	opticblast: cool thanks! could you also please tell me the value of `System.Info.os`, and whether your machine is 64bit?
01:50:31	→	IndecisionTree joins (mike@user/IndecisionTree)
01:50:34	<opticblast>	mingw32, and not sure how to tell that on windows
01:51:26	<opticblast>	system type x64, so yes it's 64-bit
01:51:54	×	johnjaye quits (~pi@154.6.152.74) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
01:51:58	<jackdk>	thanks. I was worried that `System.Info.os` might say something else for non-32bit windows, but seems stable. I grepped GHC source for it too
01:53:13	→	jkaye_ joins (~qicruser@2601:281:8300:7530:ad17:6976:1a41:d704)
01:53:50	<opticblast>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/System-Info.html#v:os suggests it is indeed mingw32 for all windows hosts
01:56:07	×	ahammer quits (~ahammer@157.122.68.227) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
01:57:01	<EvanR>	monochrom, btw... it seems to me that a dumbpass handcoded scanl that just uses tuples to return a lazy list on one hand and the final state in the other looks basically like the code for break/span xD
01:58:03	<EvanR>	where in break/span the tail at the break point takes the role of the final state
01:58:32	<EvanR>	much less code than this crazy Unfolding thing
02:00:25	→	ubert1 joins (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf0994cfb11256a527c2b165.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
02:00:40	→	n3rdy1 joins (~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480::41)
02:00:40	→	azimut joins (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
02:01:39	×	ubert quits (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf099487827ed8c05b109aa8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
02:01:39	ubert1	is now known as ubert
02:04:01	×	aplainzetakind quits (~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net) (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net)
02:04:23	→	aplainzetakind joins (~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net)
02:05:15	→	TonyStone joins (~TonyStone@cpe-74-76-51-197.nycap.res.rr.com)
02:06:19	×	machinedgod quits (~machinedg@24.105.81.50) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:08:13	→	perrierjouet joins (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
02:08:29	×	IndecisionTree quits (mike@user/IndecisionTree) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
02:10:14	×	jacks- quits (~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
02:10:41	→	califax- joins (~califax@user/califx)
02:13:54	×	califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
02:13:55	califax-	is now known as califax
02:14:20	×	Midjak quits (~Midjak@may53-1-78-226-116-92.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
02:17:04	×	Gurkenglas quits (~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-204.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
02:18:13	×	raehik quits (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:21:15	×	burnsidesLlama quits (~burnsides@dhcp168-031.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
02:21:25	→	ahammer joins (~ahammer@157.122.68.227)
02:21:33	×	jkaye_ quits (~qicruser@2601:281:8300:7530:ad17:6976:1a41:d704) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
02:21:48	→	burnsidesLlama joins (~burnsides@client-8-73.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
02:22:35	×	Erutuon quits (~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:24:51	→	LukeHoersten joins (~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
02:25:12	→	Erutuon joins (~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
02:25:44	×	ahammer quits (~ahammer@157.122.68.227) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
02:25:59	×	burnsidesLlama quits (~burnsides@client-8-73.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:26:15	→	neurocyte091709 joins (~neurocyte@IP-212232084012.dynamic.medianet-world.de)
02:26:15	×	neurocyte091709 quits (~neurocyte@IP-212232084012.dynamic.medianet-world.de) (Changing host)
02:26:15	→	neurocyte091709 joins (~neurocyte@user/neurocyte)
02:26:19	×	perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
02:26:58	×	ProfSimm quits (~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109) (Remote host closed the connection)
02:27:06	→	ProfSimm joins (~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109)
02:27:20	×	xff0x quits (~xff0x@2001:1a81:5213:d00:aaa3:1c56:33b0:7a9e) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
02:27:26	→	ahammer joins (~ahammer@157.122.68.227)
02:27:51	×	ProfSimm quits (~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109) (Remote host closed the connection)
02:27:54	×	neurocyte09170 quits (~neurocyte@user/neurocyte) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
02:27:54	neurocyte091709	is now known as neurocyte09170
02:29:12	→	xff0x joins (~xff0x@2001:1a81:5253:5900:c0c8:bfdc:4cf0:476f)
02:29:30	×	LukeHoersten quits (~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Client Quit)
02:30:12	→	perrierjouet joins (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
02:32:01	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
02:34:15	→	LukeHoersten joins (~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten)
02:36:39	×	LukeHoersten quits (~LukeHoers@user/lukehoersten) (Client Quit)
02:37:52	→	pavonia_ joins (~user@user/siracusa)
02:38:37	×	ahammer quits (~ahammer@157.122.68.227) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:39:06	→	johnjaye joins (~pi@154.6.152.74)
02:39:11	×	pavonia quits (~user@user/siracusa) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:39:21	pavonia_	is now known as pavonia
02:40:43	→	ahammer joins (~ahammer@157.122.68.227)
02:40:53	×	xsarnik quits (xsarnik@lounge.fi.muni.cz) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
02:41:35	→	xsarnik joins (xsarnik@lounge.fi.muni.cz)
02:44:20	→	Hao joins (~Hao@222-154-98-23-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz)
02:46:02	×	johnjaye quits (~pi@154.6.152.74) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
02:49:08	×	ahammer quits (~ahammer@157.122.68.227) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
02:52:07	×	acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d0c7271e85bcf2712229551d8e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
03:02:25	×	Erutuon quits (~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
03:04:06	→	jackson99 joins (~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com)
03:04:57	×	n3rdy1 quits (~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480::41) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:05:25	→	Erutuon joins (~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
03:05:30	<qrpnxz>	are there known problems with C writing to, say, a StorableArray? The foreign function will change the array i give it, but has wrong behaviour. I recreate the example code in C, and it runs as expected. Not sure what to do.
03:06:13	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
03:07:07	<Axman6>	I think we'd need to see more code to be able to help
03:07:16	→	Inst joins (~delicacie@c-98-208-218-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
03:07:25	<Inst>	yo
03:07:44	<Inst>	I'm wondering, are there feminist groups for Haskell? I've tried to bring up to HF why Haskell should be more aggressively marketed at women
03:09:11	<qrpnxz>	perhaps i shouldn't be using the passed value from withStorableArray even if I'm gonna touch it later
03:09:41	<qrpnxz>	that's probably it. It's gonna get ugly, but i'll try an example without doing that
03:10:57	×	FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
03:10:57	→	finn_elija joins (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
03:10:57	finn_elija	is now known as FinnElija
03:13:03	×	ec quits (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
03:14:42	×	jespada quits (~jespada@87.74.36.188) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
03:14:59	×	shapr quits (~user@2601:7c0:c37c:46d0:e770:81ff:40e0:b008) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:15:12	→	shapr joins (~user@2601:7c0:c37c:46d0:e770:81ff:40e0:b008)
03:16:10	<jackson99>	what web scraping library is recommended these days?
03:16:37	<EvanR>	I heard tagsoup is cool
03:17:17	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb)
03:17:48	→	n3rdy1 joins (~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480:1b88:50f:dae0:9293)
03:17:57	<dsal>	Inst: that's a strange goal. What are you trying to accomplish there?
03:18:00	→	jespada joins (~jespada@87.74.36.188)
03:18:14	<jackson99>	EvanR thanks I'll give it a try
03:18:21	<Inst>	increasing population of Haskell programmers by targeting underconsidered markets
03:19:03	<Inst>	Haskellers in the main tend to be experienced programmers who know multiple languages
03:19:27	<dsal>	Do you assume that women, in general, are not experienced programmers who know multiple languages?
03:20:18	<Inst>	I assume that men, in general, are not experienced programmers who know multiple languages.
03:20:36	<Inst>	11% of devs, according to some surveys, self-identified as women.
03:20:39	<qrpnxz>	?
03:21:14	→	lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
03:22:44	<Inst>	there are active initiatives aimed to fix this
03:23:41	<Inst>	https://reshamas.github.io/why-women-are-flourishing-in-r-community-but-lagging-in-python/ <--- interestingly, r is also a functional language.
03:23:52	<ephemient>	at this point in time I'm not convinced the Haskell community is large enough to support outreach programs, nevermind who it's targeted towards
03:24:03	<qrpnxz>	first you have to show it's a problem, no?
03:24:21	<EvanR>	stop making sense right now
03:24:26	<qrpnxz>	lol
03:24:47	<dsal>	I don't think "Haskell: A language for women" is a plausible pivot.
03:25:32	×	lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
03:27:31	<Inst>	people are trying, though, I guess it's at the exploratory / experimental stage
03:27:32	<Inst>	https://joyofhaskell.com
03:27:44	<Inst>	co-author of Haskell Programming from First Principles (HaskellBook)
03:28:25	<Inst>	who, mind you, is one of those people for whom Haskell is a first language
03:30:12	<Inst>	ephemient: I'm told it's more a tooling and ecosystem issue
03:30:13	<qrpnxz>	huh, wonder what the differences are between this and huh, wonder what the differences are between this and https://haskellbook.com/
03:30:23	<Inst>	Haskellbook never shuts up
03:30:33	→	Guest\|45 joins (~Guest\|45@172.56.42.40)
03:30:40	<Inst>	joyofhaskell is a quick overgrown "discover monads by implementing them yourself" book
03:30:45	×	perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
03:31:08	×	Guest\|45 quits (~Guest\|45@172.56.42.40) (Client Quit)
03:31:21	<qrpnxz>	you make both sound bad lol
03:31:57	<Inst>	iirc hacking around until you invent monads yourself is the least offensive way to learn monads, right?
03:32:20	<ephemient>	https://discourse.haskell.org/t/proposing-haskell-foundation-community-grants/3049 the biggest community outreach program now seems to be GSOC which is funded by somebody else. Haskell itself doesn't have anything…
03:32:22	<dsal>	I don't see that as a woman-outreach thing. it's just a good author with probably a good book, though I've not read it.
03:32:26	<Axman6>	There are quite a lot of prominent frmale and non-binary Haskellers these days, and I haven't seen much in the way of cultural problems which have made it impleasant for people who aren't male to be part of the community. That doens't mean it doesn't exist, but I'm generally impressed with how little of a problem I see
03:32:28	<qrpnxz>	idk about "least offensive" but doesn't sound very efficient
03:34:29	<qrpnxz>	joy goes into lenses apparently, that's nice
03:35:00	<Inst>	it's guided projects
03:35:13	<Inst>	imo the problem with HPFFP is that, well, I'm blaming Chris Allen
03:35:17	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
03:35:22	<EvanR>	bandwagons are cool and all but is a beginners book dedicated to monads perpetuating the "you can't haskell without first getting monads" meme
03:35:22	<EvanR>	monads first
03:35:22	×	EvanR quits (~EvanR@user/evanr) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:35:26	<Inst>	but there seemed to have been two impulses there, one was to make a nice newbie tutorial to Haskell
03:35:41	→	EvanR joins (~EvanR@user/evanr)
03:36:05	<Inst>	Finding Success (and Failure) in Haskell is more targeted at intermediate beginners, i.e, they know recursion and shit
03:36:20	<Axman6>	for someone so new to the language and with so little experience, you sure do have a lot of strong opinions on how things should be
03:37:50	<monochrom>	Dunning-Kruger discusses zero knowledge and infinity opinion.
03:37:52	<ephemient>	I do wonder if it would be easier to teach starting from Purescript - Haskell-like, but with strict evaluation - before expanding to full Haskell
03:38:00	<qrpnxz>	i mean, without IO nothing is gonna happen, so you need at least a monad to get by lol
03:38:01	<monochrom>	s/infinity/infinite/
03:38:24	<ephemient>	it might help for some people, anyway
03:38:34	<EvanR>	or is IO being a monad a coincidence, and you could technically apply two IO actions with <*> xD
03:39:16	<ephemient>	but I am definitely on the "just ignore Monads until they use the language enough to see repeated patterns" train
03:39:17	→	mbuf joins (~Shakthi@122.174.202.253)
03:39:19	<EvanR>	"since you don't get monads yet, we will do all our work with IO Applicative"
03:39:49	×	td_ quits (~td@muedsl-82-207-238-204.citykom.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
03:39:49	<qrpnxz>	a lot of the good types happen to be monads yeah, but is it that hard? You just gotta look at the type signatures and make stuff match
03:40:38	<qrpnxz>	if i got a (m a) and a (a -> m b), how do i work with this? well surely (>>=)
03:40:52	<monochrom>	My IO tutorial certainly motivates >>= and return without motivating full-blown monad.
03:41:12	<qrpnxz>	is that not full blown monad
03:41:16	<qrpnxz>	that defines a monad
03:41:23	<EvanR>	m a as future and (a -> m b) as event handler callback
03:41:32	<monochrom>	No I don't bring up the monad laws.
03:41:33	<EvanR>	look, javascript
03:41:40	→	td_ joins (~td@94.134.91.30)
03:41:54	<qrpnxz>	the monad laws are basically "acts like you'd expect"
03:42:01	<qrpnxz>	i could not recite them
03:42:03	<ephemient>	matching up types is not a problem if you're coming from another language with a HM typesystem, but if that's not their background then even that is unfamiliar
03:42:13	<dibblego>	I do exactly what monochrom does
03:42:47	<monochrom>	Instead I explain that (getLine >>=) wants a callback, in "getLine >>= k", k is the callback.
03:43:03	×	Inst quits (~delicacie@c-98-208-218-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
03:43:13	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
03:43:13	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
03:43:13	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
03:43:21	<qrpnxz>	i prefer the railway analogy, it's just composition
03:43:29	<EvanR>	railway?
03:43:45	<EvanR>	:t (<=<)
03:43:46	<lambdabot>	Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
03:43:53	<jackdk>	https://www.honeybadger.io/blog/railway-programming-dry-monads/ choo choo
03:43:54	<monochrom>	For people who are OK with callback-oriented programming (so everybody), taking (getLine >>=) as one single unit is a bit easier than taking getLine alone as one single unit.
03:43:54	<EvanR>	ah this is composition
03:44:16	<qrpnxz>	jackdk, yes thanks
03:44:54	<jackdk>	actually I think https://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/rop/ was the original representation, but then it made its way into ruby because the only monads that `dry-rb` offers are basically `Either e`, `Maybe` and some exception-wrangling stuff
03:45:28	<qrpnxz>	right, but it gets across what i'm talking about so, good
03:46:36	×	ensyde quits (~ensyde@99-185-235-117.lightspeed.chrlnc.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
03:49:49	×	EvanR quits (~EvanR@user/evanr) (Quit: Leaving)
03:50:19	<jackdk>	monochrom: I think that's right, I felt like I understood `(>=>)` first, then `(>>=)`, then `join`. I also hear that analogies to promises seem to go over well when explaining the IO type
03:50:28	→	Guest83 joins (~Guest83@49.36.127.54)
03:50:30	<qrpnxz>	I explained Monad to someone a bit ago by first explaining a Functor as a mappable thing, an Applicative Functor as allowing function application in a context (i elaborated), and a Monad as an Applicative Functor you can flatten, and they were rather satisfied with that. That's a sort of container-oriented look at it.
03:50:33	<Guest83>	hello!
03:50:36	<qrpnxz>	hi
03:50:37	<Guest83>	can i ask for help here?
03:50:39	<jackdk>	hello!
03:50:50	<qrpnxz>	yes
03:50:56	<jackdk>	yes, though in general it's best to just ask your question instead of first asking to ask your question. What's up?
03:51:06	<Guest83>	sorry!
03:51:11	<Guest83>	okay so i'm trying to setup a simple score system
03:51:11	→	Inst joins (~delicacie@c-98-208-218-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
03:51:16	<Inst>	isn't that sort of the point, though, Axman6?
03:51:18	<Guest83>	my current system
03:51:20	<Guest83>	else if command =="scoreup"
03:51:20	<Guest83>	then do
03:51:21	<Guest83>	increase <- readIORef score_im
03:51:21	<Guest83>	writeIORef score_im increase + 10
03:51:22	<Guest83>	putStrLn "Score increased by 10"
03:51:22	<Guest83>	else if command == "score"
03:51:23	<jackdk>	aaa
03:51:23	<Guest83>	then do
03:51:23	<Guest83>	score_m <- readIORef score_im
03:51:24	<Guest83>	print score_m
03:51:26	<jackdk>	@where paste
03:51:26	<lambdabot>	Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
03:51:27	<qrpnxz>	o oh
03:51:38	<Guest83>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0LJ6RxAb
03:51:39	<jackdk>	sorry, should've said that sooner
03:51:45	<Inst>	communities socialize, have dogmas, etc, newbies don't have the dogmas so you get new ideas, most of them are bad, but a small minority might be both original and useful
03:52:44	<Guest83>	what i'm trying to do is allow the. scoreup command to increase the value of score by 10
03:52:46	<Guest83>	what i
03:52:59	<Guest83>	what i've realised is that variables are immutable
03:53:08	<Guest83>	BUT, an article i found said that this would work
03:53:26	<Guest83>	article i'm using : http://www.michaelburge.us/2017/08/15/how-do-i-modify-a-variable-in-haskell.html
03:53:42	<Guest83>	their idea of this is https://paste.tomsmeding.com/C193lJ4O
03:53:46	<monochrom>	Yes you can treat score_im as a mutable variable. writeIORef is exactly right.
03:54:02	<Guest83>	mhm BUT
03:54:08	<Guest83>	this code when rand
03:54:11	<Guest83>	this code when ran*
03:54:32	<Guest83>	doesn't work
03:54:38	<Guest83>	> score
03:54:38	<Guest83>	0
03:54:39	<Guest83>	> scoreup
03:54:39	<lambdabot>	error: Variable not in scope: score
03:54:39	<Guest83>	Score increased by 10
03:54:40	<Guest83>	> score
03:54:40	<lambdabot>	error: Variable not in scope: scoreup
03:54:40	<Guest83>	0
03:54:41	<Guest83>	>
03:54:41	<lambdabot>	error: Variable not in scope: score
03:54:53	<monochrom>	Then the problem is elsewhere.
03:54:58	<Guest83>	yeah so my linter
03:55:08	<jackson99>	there are ways to avoid IORef, though. for example you can implement game loop with recursion, and pass "updated" state on every recursive call
03:55:17	<Guest83>	i see
03:55:24	<Guest83>	my linter tells me something else though
03:55:26	<jackdk>	jackson99: true - but let's seee if we can get Guest83 's approach to work first.
03:55:36	<Guest83>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/nVSxcP4k
03:55:58	<Guest83>	that is what my linter tells me
03:56:03	<monochrom>	writeIORef score_im (increase + 10)
03:56:06	<jackdk>	> :t writeIORef
03:56:07	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’
03:56:15	→	perrierjouet joins (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
03:56:15	<jackdk>	% :t writeIORef
03:56:16	<yahb>	jackdk: IORef a -> a -> IO ()
03:56:39	<Guest83>	i'm confused lol
03:56:59	<monochrom>	You need parentheses around (increase + 10)
03:57:06	<Guest83>	oh lambda bot is a bot that compiled haskell code not an annoying user
03:57:34	<Guest83>	that fixes the linter error but "scoreup" still prints 0
03:57:51	<Guest83>	lemme show you guys the entire way the system works
03:57:52	<monochrom>	Therefore the problem is elsewhere.
03:57:55	<dsal>	When you say "linter" do you mean "compiler" ?
03:58:03	<Guest83>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/EFHMVbMh here is the entire code
03:58:10	<Guest83>	no the linter in my IDE
03:58:15	<Guest83>	no the linter in my code editor*
03:58:53	<jackdk>	I think dsal's point is that's an error from GHC, which is probably coming through your editor via haskell-language-server or similar
03:58:53	<monochrom>	You are creating a brand new score_im every iteration, as opposed to reusing the first one.
03:59:29	<Guest83>	jackdk thats right yeah
03:59:44	<dsal>	A linter tells you that you might not be doing something the best way. The compiler tells you that you're not doing anything at all that the language will accept.
03:59:45	<Guest83>	monochrom is that what is resetting the score
03:59:47	<monochrom>	Perform your newIORef in main. Give it to result or parse.
03:59:51	<monochrom>	Yes.
03:59:52	<ephemient>	and the same would happen in any language, not just Haskell
04:00:27	<Guest83>	lemme try to implement that
04:02:20	<Guest83>	monochrom i think i did it but it still doesn't work
04:02:33	<Guest83>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Way1L6iv
04:02:47	<monochrom>	Same difference.
04:02:55	<Guest83>	hm?
04:03:02	<jackdk>	you're halfway there - it recreates the IORef each time result calls itself
04:03:07	<Guest83>	oh!!!
04:03:13	<Guest83>	so i need to put it in main instead
04:03:20	<Guest83>	or...?
04:03:27	<dsal>	"monochrom> Perform your newIORef in main. Give it to result or parse."
04:03:32	<jackdk>	that's right, and this would be true for pretty much any language
04:03:52	<monochrom>	"int x = 0; for (;;) { ... }" vs "for (;;) { int x = 0; ... }"
04:04:00	×	Hao quits (~Hao@222-154-98-23-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz) (Quit: Client closed)
04:04:06	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
04:04:13	<Guest83>	i see
04:04:15	<Guest83>	one second
04:05:04	<Guest83>	result score_ii =
04:05:05	<Guest83>	do
04:05:05	<Guest83>	putStr "> "
04:05:06	<Guest83>	input <- getLine
04:05:06	<Guest83>	parse input score_ii
04:05:07	<Guest83>	result
04:05:07	<Guest83>	main =
04:05:08	<Guest83>	do
04:05:08	<Guest83>	score_im <- newIORef 0
04:05:09	<Guest83>	result score_im
04:05:10	×	justsomeguy quits (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
04:05:15	<Guest83>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4IvHdfjQ
04:05:17	<monochrom>	Yeah like that.
04:05:19	<jackson99>	as a sidenote, even if you want to use IORef, there's zero reason for parse to accept one. just return the result
04:05:25	<Guest83>	this gives me an error though
04:05:37	<jackson99>	s/result/score
04:05:58	<Guest83>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/nz9KhRuW <- error
04:06:15	<dsal>	It's helpful to paste your code and the error at the same time.
04:06:28	<monochrom>	Have you modified parse to expect the extra parameter?
04:06:51	×	rekahsoft quits (~rekahsoft@cpe0008a20f982f-cm64777d666260.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:06:57	<Guest83>	i think so
04:07:06	<Guest83>	yeeup
04:07:19	<jackdk>	when you recursively call `result`, you need to pass it the ref again
04:07:27	<Guest83>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/VduVbmjY <- code
04:07:27	<Guest83>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/nz9KhRuW <- error
04:07:35	<Guest83>	jackdk i don't udnerstand
04:07:35	<monochrom>	Oh, that.
04:07:59	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
04:07:59	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
04:07:59	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
04:07:59	<jackdk>	L35 in the paste calls `result` with no arguments, but you've changed it to require one
04:08:12	<jackdk>	so it should now be `result score_ii`
04:08:18	→	lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
04:08:18	<Guest83>	oh!!!!
04:08:25	<jackson99>	there's no reason to give score different names. they are all different variables in their own scope
04:08:27	<Guest83>	i forgot to change the recursive call haha
04:08:43	<Guest83>	makes sense jackson99 but its for readbility issues haha
04:08:54	<jackson99>	I'm not sure it helps readability :)
04:08:58	<jackdk>	(If you want an infinite loop, once you get this working you can think about using `Control.Monad.forever`)
04:09:02	<Guest83>	omg amazing! it works!!!!
04:09:06	<jackdk>	\o/
04:09:11	<Guest83>	thanks a bunch guys
04:09:24	<Guest83>	i'm sorry for the guest name haha, y'all can call me snowneo
04:09:27	<dsal>	The next trick is to get rid of the ioref
04:09:32	<Guest83>	i'm going to start hanging out here more often
04:09:42	×	Guest83 quits (~Guest83@49.36.127.54) (Quit: Client closed)
04:09:53	→	SnowNeo joins (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54)
04:10:01	<SnowNeo>	i'm back!
04:10:07	<SnowNeo>	with an actual name this time
04:10:21	×	waleee quits (~waleee@2001:9b0:21d:fc00:398f:b003:b90d:acf4) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
04:10:42	<jackdk>	so I think jackson99 and dsal are right - a good next exercise might be to pass the current score around as a parameter instead of using the IORef
04:10:44	<dsal>	Oh, I thought I'd never used an IORef in a program, but I found one where I did.
04:11:02	<SnowNeo>	i see
04:11:19	<SnowNeo>	i'm going to have to look into that
04:11:28	<SnowNeo>	my class starts in 4 minutes haha
04:11:43	<dsal>	Definitely wouldn't use an IORef for this.
04:12:04	<SnowNeo>	my first idea was to do it the python way (i'm really active in their discord community)
04:12:21	<SnowNeo>	but then a friend let me know vcariables a immutable
04:12:47	<SnowNeo>	http://www.michaelburge.us/2017/08/15/how-do-i-modify-a-variable-in-haskell.html <- place where i got to see iORef
04:13:31	<jackdk>	It's a natural question to ask if you're used to solving problems with mutable variables, but it's also often not the right question to ask here
04:13:46	<SnowNeo>	haha
04:13:54	<SnowNeo>	i'm used to solving problems with mutable ones yes
04:14:00	<jackdk>	(and you get a lot more than you give up, once you start doing everything functionally)
04:14:01	<SnowNeo>	haskell is my first functional language
04:14:31	<dsal>	It's a good habit to break. It's completely unnecessary for this, but it's one of a few problems.
04:14:38	<dsal>	What would you say `parse` is meant to do?
04:14:45	<SnowNeo>	i don't want to give up since i mainly work in languages such as java and python but i'm learning haskell since i'm intrguied by the idea of everything being a function
04:15:07	<SnowNeo>	well parse actually parses the command
04:15:08	<Axman6>	I would very, very strongly recommend you don't even attempt to use IORefs and instead pass around the value you want to change
04:15:22	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
04:15:24	<SnowNeo>	how would i do that, could you give me anexample
04:15:26	<dsal>	By the name, I'd expect it to take some kind of input and return `Maybe SomeCommand`
04:15:49	<SnowNeo>	`parse` also contains the logic for taking out well what the command says for example the exit and about command
04:16:15	<dsal>	Yeah. So it both parses input and interacts with the process state.
04:16:16	<jackson99>	SnowNeo, return new score value from parse, call result recursively with the returned and updated score
04:16:23	<SnowNeo>	if you guys are familiar with python,`while True:` is what i tried to recreate with the result function
04:16:36	<Inst>	what kind of problem are you trying to solve?
04:16:39	<dsal>	:t forever
04:16:39	<lambdabot>	Applicative f => f a -> f b
04:16:43	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
04:16:43	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
04:16:43	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
04:16:59	<SnowNeo>	jackson99 i'll try to tackle that when my class ends forsho
04:17:22	<SnowNeo>	Inst i'm trying to make a simple text based rpg
04:17:25	<Inst>	oh guest83 ioref
04:17:39	<SnowNeo>	yes! i just changed my name to an actuall name
04:17:43	<Inst>	if you must have mutability, just store everything in a temp file and handle it that way
04:17:54	<Axman6>	... no
04:18:04	<dsal>	SnowNeo: It's really helpful to think of your types. Even by name. `parse` doesn't sound like it should have any side effects.
04:18:11	<SnowNeo>	i don't think i need file thing for this
04:18:24	<Axman6>	you don't, Inst is giving you poor advice
04:18:37	×	perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
04:18:39	<SnowNeo>	makes sense dsal i'll make note of that when i reopen my project after class
04:18:48	<SnowNeo>	i'm sure they're just trying to help
04:19:10	<SnowNeo>	i think a file storage system for a realtime game where i don't really store scores
04:19:21	<SnowNeo>	would be slow and suffering for noreason
04:20:04	<Axman6>	if you want to save state when you exit, a file is fine, but it's not what you want to use for storing state in your program while it's running
04:20:32	<SnowNeo>	yeeup
04:20:39	<SnowNeo>	i don't want this to be a saved state game
04:20:50	<arahael>	I've used temp files myself again and again. Strongly recommended avoiding that shit. :(
04:20:58	<SnowNeo>	just a simpple game someone can run in like 5 seconds to have a short 5 minute game
04:21:10	<SnowNeo>	are temp files more difficult to handle than normal ones?
04:21:13	<arahael>	You're basically implementing a crappy, half-assed database. Just use a pre-existing database, they're common, and solve this exacct issue.
04:21:27	<arahael>	And sqlite is amazing.
04:21:45	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:22:52	<Axman6>	it sounds like files and saving state aren't necessary at all, so we should probably move off the topic
04:22:57	<jackdk>	Axman6: +1
04:23:51	×	Erutuon quits (~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:26:42	<qrpnxz>	ah what the hell, suddenly it's working. Is this UB?! I have no idea what changed.
04:26:43	<glguy>	I just learned something about ViewPatterns; you can chain them
04:26:46	<glguy>	wakeNetwork :: (IntMap Effect -> ([Packet], IntMap Effect)) -> System -> [Event]
04:26:49	<glguy>	wakeNetwork f (networkF f -> (ps, enq ps -> idle -> events)) = events
04:27:25	<glguy>	``enq ps -> idle -> events``
04:28:25	<glguy>	I'm not advocating it; I just hadn't thought to try before
04:28:46	×	SnowNeo quits (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54) (Quit: Client closed)
04:28:52	<dsal>	Oh neat. I've seen people do nested chains. I often use view patterns and end up finding I've just made things worse. heh
04:29:31	×	vglfr quits (~vglfr@46.96.161.71) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:29:43	<Axman6>	SnowNeo: if it were me, I would start by thinking about the what commands I wanted to execute and define a data type: data Command = Exit \| About \| ScoreUp \| Score; then I would have a function parseCommand :: String -> Maybe Command. Then you can have a function with type executeCommand :: Int -> Command -> IO Int (IO so you can print things)
04:30:02	<Axman6>	glguy: looks weirdly like C struct pointer field syntax
04:30:58	<dsal>	% let f (take 2 -> [read -> a, read -> b] ) = a + b in f ["2", "3", "4"]
04:30:58	<yahb>	dsal: 5
04:31:23	×	geranim0 quits (~geranim0@modemcable242.171-178-173.mc.videotron.ca) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:34:56	<glguy>	I was going back and playing with one of my favorite old AoC problems, the 2019 intcode 50-machine network sim ; had an idea for making the code nicer https://adventofcode.com/2019/day/23
04:43:59	<glguy>	probably a couple years late for anyone to care, but in case anyone remembers doing that one https://glguy.net/advent/sln_2019_23/Main.html
04:44:18	<qrpnxz>	oh man, i think my problem was just a build system issue! I can't believe it.
04:44:19	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
04:45:07	→	vysn joins (~vysn@user/vysn)
04:47:00	<Axman6>	welcome to the world of C programming?
04:47:47	<Axman6>	I've been fighting C for the last few days. I seem to have run into a problem where GHC's implementation of memcpy randomly decides it's just not going to stop copying and fills up all my ram
04:48:35	<glguy>	have you tried adding more ram?
04:48:54	<Axman6>	well, since it is only supposed to be copying 28 bytes, it is problematic
04:50:10	<int-e>	glguy: oh I vaguely remember... I ended up with a [Reply] -> [Request] style of interaction that year
04:50:13	<qrpnxz>	it's my own fault, i was building the project myself cause i don't want to mess with Cabal et al., but since i'm little experienced with that in GHC, i didn't have the dependencies right, and work didn't happen
04:50:32	<jackdk>	messing with cabal is likely to be much less frustrating
04:50:47	×	img quits (~img@user/img) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
04:51:22	<qrpnxz>	doubt it, now that i got it right it's great.
04:51:39	<glguy>	int-e: my interpreter produced https://hackage.haskell.org/package/intcode-0.3.0.0/docs/Intcode.html#t:Effect , but I had a shortcut function for using it as a: [Int] -> [Int]
04:52:30	<qrpnxz>	speaking of effects, why is the prototypical state function (s -> (a, s)) rather than (s -> (s, a)) ?
04:52:59	<qrpnxz>	well, i suppose if you have to pass the state in, you'll want to get the state out in the usual case
04:55:07	→	img joins (~img@user/img)
04:55:12	<Axman6>	or (s -> (a -> s -> r) -> r)
04:55:23	<jackdk>	I would like to know this also, as I always get a little sad that its functor instance isn't just the composition of ((->) s) and (s,)
04:56:32	×	euandreh quits (~euandreh@2804:14c:33:9fe5:b997:c1f9:27c:1247) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
04:57:43	<int-e>	I suppose we care more about the value than the successor state, so we put the value first?
04:58:13	<int-e>	It is an arbitrary choice.
05:02:33	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
05:03:42	<Axman6>	I agree that composing the two functions from state's... adjunction? would be nice
05:04:31	<dolio>	It is, though. You just can't use it as a type class instance in Haskell.
05:05:45	<Axman6>	functors*
05:06:03	×	swistak quits (~swistak@185.21.216.141) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
05:06:12	<dolio>	In category theory it's not uncommon to put the S on the right in the adjunction, because then it stays in the right order, in a way.
05:06:41	<dolio>	curry instead of curry+flip.
05:06:48	×	wyrd quits (~wyrd@gateway/tor-sasl/wyrd) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
05:07:36	<dolio>	Sometimes reordering is a big deal.
05:08:03	→	wyrd joins (~wyrd@gateway/tor-sasl/wyrd)
05:09:04	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb)
05:12:03	<int-e>	:t unfoldr
05:12:04	<lambdabot>	(b -> Maybe (a, b)) -> b -> [a]
05:13:57	×	little_mac quits (~little_ma@2601:410:4300:3ce0:a09c:720a:f4a0:1ac1) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:13:58	<int-e>	(b is a state, so there's another precedent for that argument order)
05:18:17	<energizer>	Is there a haskell implementation of python/rust/swift iterators? where the iteration is managed externally by the caller rather than internally by a HOF
05:19:39	<monochrom>	My http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont.xhtml#yield comes close. But I wouldn't go any closer.
05:21:52	<jackdk>	it would also be the `next` of any streaming type, right? like `streaming`'s `Streaming.Prelude.next :: Monad m => Stream (Of a) m r -> m (Either r (a, Stream (Of a) m r))`
05:22:59	<int-e>	yeah also the foundation of various stream fusions implementations (an old one for lists is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stream-fusion-0.1.2.5/docs/Data-Stream.html ...actual uses occur in bytestring and vector, I believe)
05:23:24	<energizer>	where does the iteration state live in a stream?: in the caller or the stream object?
05:23:58	<monochrom>	Both?
05:24:09	<monochrom>	In the stream object, but the caller owns the stream object.
05:25:04	→	domini_ joins (~domini@22.112.235.77.dyn.idknet.com)
05:25:11	<int-e>	(but the caller can't use the state except through the stream's step function)
05:25:19	×	domini_ quits (~domini@22.112.235.77.dyn.idknet.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:26:32	<energizer>	ok so that's like python
05:27:21	<energizer>	the alternative being an indexable list where the caller just indexes 0 and then 1 and then 2 ...
05:28:37	<energizer>	python style has basically hidden mutable state; otoh the indexable style is stateless but means the stream accumulates in memory as you read through it
05:28:49	<jackdk>	remember that list index `(!!)` is O(n) in Haskell, but if you want an indexed walk through the list you can zip it with `[0..]`
05:29:03	<energizer>	yeah so s/list/vector or whatever
05:29:07	<jackdk>	> zip [0..] ['a', 'b', 'c']
05:29:08	<lambdabot>	[(0,'a'),(1,'b'),(2,'c')]
05:30:31	<int-e>	operationally, a lazy list is pretty much the same as an iterator anyway; there's a "next" operation (force the outermost constructor, (:) if there's another element; [] if everything is consumed), and thunks capture the hidden state.
05:30:47	<int-e>	at least as long as you consume the list once
05:31:04	→	swistak joins (~swistak@185.21.216.141)
05:31:40	<int-e>	s/iterator/generator/ is a bit more accurate
05:36:33	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
05:38:22	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
05:43:11	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
05:46:32	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
05:52:55	→	[_] joins (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
05:55:49	×	[itchyjunk] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
05:57:50	×	zaquest quits (~notzaques@5.130.79.72) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:59:05	→	zaquest joins (~notzaques@5.130.79.72)
05:59:46	→	takuan joins (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
06:00:23	→	Jing joins (~hedgehog@240e:390:7c53:a7e1:87f:3f13:7a62:d6c7)
06:05:43	→	little_mac joins (~little_ma@2601:410:4300:3ce0:a09c:720a:f4a0:1ac1)
06:05:57	×	stiell quits (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
06:09:07	→	chomwitt joins (~chomwitt@ppp-94-67-201-202.home.otenet.gr)
06:10:06	×	chomwitt quits (~chomwitt@ppp-94-67-201-202.home.otenet.gr) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:12:05	×	slowButPresent quits (~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent) (Quit: leaving)
06:12:57	×	wyrd quits (~wyrd@gateway/tor-sasl/wyrd) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:13:10	→	wyrd joins (~wyrd@gateway/tor-sasl/wyrd)
06:14:58	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
06:15:26	→	chomwitt joins (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc11:fb00:12c3:7bff:fe6d:d374)
06:16:18	→	fef joins (~thedawn@user/thedawn)
06:18:13	→	stiell joins (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
06:18:23	→	Erutuon joins (~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
06:18:37	×	mjs2600 quits (~mjs2600@c-24-91-3-49.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:20:57	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
06:22:37	×	mvk quits (~mvk@2607:fea8:5cdd:f000::55f8) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:24:04	→	whatsupdoc joins (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com)
06:25:29	×	CiaoSen quits (~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
06:28:15	→	mjs2600 joins (~mjs2600@c-24-91-3-49.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
06:29:53	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
06:29:53	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
06:29:53	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
06:33:06	→	razetime joins (~quassel@49.207.203.87)
06:33:06	×	razetime quits (~quassel@49.207.203.87) (Client Quit)
06:33:11	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
06:34:05	×	nunggu quits (~q@gateway/tor-sasl/nunggu) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:34:28	→	nunggu joins (~q@gateway/tor-sasl/nunggu)
06:34:45	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
06:35:12	×	LiaoTao quits (~LiaoTao@gateway/tor-sasl/liaotao) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
06:38:10	→	LiaoTao joins (~LiaoTao@gateway/tor-sasl/liaotao)
06:40:45	×	yauhsien_ quits (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:41:38	→	yauhsien joins (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
06:42:35	×	bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:42:36	×	azimut quits (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:42:59	→	azimut joins (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
06:43:24	→	bitdex joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
06:45:08	→	indiana-bones joins (~indignant@94.140.8.115)
06:46:53	→	SnowNeo joins (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54)
06:46:56	<SnowNeo>	hello!
06:47:03	<SnowNeo>	i'm back
06:47:10	<SnowNeo>	anyone here?
06:50:26	<jackdk>	shhhh... nobody say anything
06:50:29	<jackdk>	I mean hi SnowNeo
06:51:45	×	SnowNeo quits (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54) (Client Quit)
06:52:17	<Axman6>	oof
06:53:10	<jackdk>	yeah oof =\|
06:54:46	→	tromp joins (~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
06:56:37	×	n3rdy1 quits (~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480:1b88:50f:dae0:9293) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:59:07	→	ksqsf joins (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:dceb:3079:7447:6f34)
07:00:02	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
07:00:41	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
07:00:41	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
07:00:41	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
07:00:53	×	little_mac quits (~little_ma@2601:410:4300:3ce0:a09c:720a:f4a0:1ac1) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:02:11	→	SnowNeo joins (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54)
07:02:14	<SnowNeo>	hi
07:02:16	<SnowNeo>	anyone here?
07:02:33	<jackdk>	SnowNeo: there's a few of us yea
07:02:40	<jackdk>	I was worried I'd scared you off
07:02:41	<SnowNeo>	ayee i'm back
07:02:51	<SnowNeo>	no no ahha, i had to screenshare and doc and assignment for class
07:02:54	<SnowNeo>	do*
07:02:58	<SnowNeo>	an*
07:03:07	<SnowNeo>	but i'm free now so back to haskell
07:03:30	<SnowNeo>	oki so what i'm trying to do now is make some of my favorite math concepts in haskell
07:03:46	<SnowNeo>	right now i'm making one of my favorite ones
07:04:01	<SnowNeo>	it says, "the sum of the first n number of odd numbers is equal to n square"
07:04:12	<SnowNeo>	so i made something and loaded up ghci
07:04:18	<SnowNeo>	upong running this :t take n[1,3..n*1000]
07:04:33	<SnowNeo>	i get to know that this is a tuple of (Num a, Enum a)
07:04:52	<SnowNeo>	what i want to do is get the sum of this tuple
07:05:31	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
07:05:51	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
07:06:34	×	[_] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:07:07	<SnowNeo>	any help?
07:07:11	<SnowNeo>	i tried to dothis
07:07:27	<SnowNeo>	sum take n[1,3..n*1000]
07:07:46	<SnowNeo>	but it errored out with https://paste.tomsmeding.com/tYn0zBC2
07:08:07	→	gehmehgeh joins (~user@user/gehmehgeh)
07:08:39	×	xkuru quits (~xkuru@user/xkuru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:08:49	→	_ht joins (~quassel@2a02:a468:b619:1:b63a:bf2b:8ee:fbf2)
07:09:18	<SnowNeo>	nvm i got it
07:09:44	×	SnowNeo quits (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54) (Quit: Client closed)
07:10:29	×	arahael quits (~arahael@118.208.232.68) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
07:10:37	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
07:11:12	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
07:11:47	<Axman6>	Glad we could help!
07:14:01	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
07:14:57	×	mikoto-chan quits (~mikoto-ch@194.157.16.89) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
07:15:43	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
07:21:03	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
07:24:04	→	schweers joins (~user@i59F6300A.versanet.de)
07:25:12	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
07:29:19	<Inst>	it's funnier because he exited before you gave a sardonic response
07:29:39	<Inst>	anyways, is there a way to get the console to detect a keypress without using Haskeline?
07:30:25	<Inst>	also, my program will throw an exception if openFile fails
07:30:37	×	shapr quits (~user@2601:7c0:c37c:46d0:e770:81ff:40e0:b008) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
07:30:41	<Inst>	i can get around it by using a Maybe type to check and not divert to openFile, but this feels ugly
07:31:14	→	lortabac joins (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:58ed:c475:7de8:f0f9)
07:32:09	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
07:33:19	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
07:33:37	→	razetime joins (~quassel@49.207.203.87)
07:34:22	<dibblego>	have you tried it yet?
07:41:30	×	wyrd quits (~wyrd@gateway/tor-sasl/wyrd) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
07:45:05	×	emf quits (~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:3f1) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
07:45:48	<ksqsf>	Inst: I believe you'll need to set terminal attributes using smth like tcsetattr()
07:46:09	<Inst>	I can't figure out how to get Haskeline to work
07:46:59	→	emf joins (~emf@2620:10d:c090:400::5:2d26)
07:47:20	<ksqsf>	I never used haskeline, but I think it's the best option if you have nothing against it
07:47:57	→	wyrd joins (~wyrd@gateway/tor-sasl/wyrd)
07:48:08	<ksqsf>	I once used terminfo for a similar purpose; in case it's helpful: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7KSLBIU7
07:50:33	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
07:50:48	<ephemient>	https://www.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/comments/e9zgse/2019_day_13_solutions/faom67y/ I have some code that uses termios directly to read terminal input immediately
07:51:11	→	a6a45081-2b83 joins (~aditya@2601:249:4300:1296:88ec:cc73:84d4:1507)
07:51:59	→	max22- joins (~maxime@2a01cb08833598000a8db68817efc706.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
07:54:30	×	nunggu quits (~q@gateway/tor-sasl/nunggu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
07:56:55	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
07:58:49	←	ksqsf parts (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:dceb:3079:7447:6f34) (ERC 5.4.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.0.50))
07:59:15	→	ksqsf joins (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:dceb:3079:7447:6f34)
08:03:08	→	dwt__ joins (~dwt_@c-98-198-103-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net)
08:03:23	×	dwt_ quits (~dwt_@c-98-198-103-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
08:07:17	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
08:07:30	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
08:11:15	×	Erutuon quits (~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
08:11:28	→	Midjak joins (~Midjak@may53-1-78-226-116-92.fbx.proxad.net)
08:11:41	→	nunggu joins (~q@gateway/tor-sasl/nunggu)
08:12:41	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
08:15:37	×	razetime quits (~quassel@49.207.203.87) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
08:16:02	→	coot joins (~coot@89-64-85-93.dynamic.chello.pl)
08:17:00	→	mmhat joins (~mmh@55d4708c.access.ecotel.net)
08:18:02	×	cheater quits (~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
08:19:58	<polux>	Hello! I am trying to map over the type of error in MonadError. Is it possible to write a function of type (MonadError t m, MonadError t' m') => (t -> t') -> m a -> m' a or something like that? Does it even make sense? I have a hunch it doesn't because it assumes MonadError somehow commutes enough with the other effects in m to lift mapErrorT, but
08:19:58	<polux>	nothing guarantees this is always the case.
08:20:38	×	ksqsf quits (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:dceb:3079:7447:6f34) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
08:20:48	→	dhouthoo joins (~dhouthoo@178-117-36-167.access.telenet.be)
08:22:17	×	a6a45081-2b83 quits (~aditya@2601:249:4300:1296:88ec:cc73:84d4:1507) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
08:26:07	→	chele joins (~chele@user/chele)
08:27:52	→	cheater joins (~Username@user/cheater)
08:29:48	<ephemient>	\f m -> (pure <$> m) `catchError` (pure . throwError . f) :: (MonadError t m, MonadError t' m') => (t -> t') -> m a -> m (m' a)
08:30:09	<ephemient>	is probably about as close as you can get in general, since there's no reason you should be able to join m and m'
08:30:42	<polux>	good point yes, thanks a lot!
08:31:37	×	dextaa quits (~DV@user/dextaa) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
08:34:09	→	dextaa joins (~DV@user/dextaa)
08:34:55	×	Sgeo_ quits (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
08:34:57	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
08:36:01	→	mastarija joins (~mastarija@2a05:4f46:e0e:5000:81fe:1ebc:de4c:76ed)
08:36:26	<mastarija>	Is there a paper on Haskell lenses I could read?
08:36:59	<c_wraith>	there are a number of papers on related theoretical concepts, but none will help you use any of the existing libraries.
08:37:08	<c_wraith>	So.. what's your goal?
08:37:22	<mastarija>	To get a theoretical background
08:37:35	<mastarija>	Hopefully in terms of category theory
08:38:06	<c_wraith>	ok, there's a really good paper for that - which I can't remember the name of. I know how I can find it, but it'll take me a few minutes :)
08:38:10	→	`2jt joins (~jtomas@10.red-83-58-228.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
08:38:31	→	jgeerds joins (~jgeerds@55d4bbed.access.ecotel.net)
08:39:07	→	gustik joins (~gustik@2a01:c844:2436:6920:9e9:f97c:41d1:634c)
08:39:56	<mastarija>	c_wraith, cool thanks!
08:40:44	<c_wraith>	ok, it's a blog post rather than a paper, but it has a lot of links to papers. https://julesh.com/2018/08/16/lenses-for-philosophers/
08:42:04	<mastarija>	Ah... I've just skimmed through that this morning.
08:42:10	<c_wraith>	hah. sorry then :)
08:42:14	<mastarija>	haha, np.
08:42:36	×	bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
08:42:37	<c_wraith>	Have you checked Bartoz's blog?
08:42:49	<c_wraith>	I think he made several posts about category theory and lenses
08:43:16	<c_wraith>	Yes, he has: https://bartoszmilewski.com/
08:47:06	→	ksqsf joins (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:dceb:3079:7447:6f34)
08:47:29	×	schweers quits (~user@i59F6300A.versanet.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
08:48:22	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
08:48:39	→	michalz joins (~michalz@185.246.204.104)
08:48:59	→	mc47 joins (~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
08:51:25	×	ksqsf quits (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:dceb:3079:7447:6f34) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
08:51:28	→	machinedgod joins (~machinedg@24.105.81.50)
08:53:23	<mastarija>	c_wraith, I've actually found something right now on ncatlab
08:53:39	<mastarija>	http://nlab-pages.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/nlab/show/lens+(in+computer+science)
08:53:58	<mastarija>	I somehow always forget that this great resource exists
08:57:16	→	Gurkenglas joins (~Gurkengla@dslb-002-203-144-204.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
09:00:08	×	boxscape quits (~boxscape@user/boxscape) (Quit: You have been kicked for being idle)
09:00:16	×	zwro[m] quits (~zwromatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1d4) (Quit: You have been kicked for being idle)
09:00:52	×	Codaraxis_ quits (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (Remote host closed the connection)
09:00:57	×	mastarija quits (~mastarija@2a05:4f46:e0e:5000:81fe:1ebc:de4c:76ed) (Quit: Leaving)
09:01:12	→	Codaraxis_ joins (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis)
09:02:12	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
09:03:41	→	ksqsf joins (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:1c16:6357:9dab:49e9)
09:08:18	×	ksqsf quits (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:1c16:6357:9dab:49e9) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
09:09:22	<tomsmeding>	some domain misconfiguration there
09:11:51	×	alMalsamo quits (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
09:13:58	→	perrierjouet joins (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
09:16:34	×	eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
09:16:40	×	jackson99 quits (~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout))
09:17:31	×	geekosaur quits (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by allbery_b)))
09:17:31	→	allbery_b joins (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
09:17:34	allbery_b	is now known as geekosaur
09:26:10	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
09:27:17	→	acidjnk joins (~acidjnk@p200300d0c7271e850c94254067925f57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
09:27:18	×	wre^ quits (~wre@wsip-98-188-242-61.mc.at.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
09:33:01	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
09:35:32	×	perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
09:36:14	→	xb0o2 joins (~xb0o2@user/xb0o2)
09:37:42	→	mikoto-chan joins (~mikoto-ch@213-139-178-171.co.dnainternet.fi)
09:39:00	×	indiana-bones quits (~indignant@94.140.8.115) (Quit: Leaving)
09:41:36	→	CiaoSen joins (~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
09:41:49	→	zer0bitz joins (~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f444:a000:8153:e826:3459:f646)
09:46:28	<tomsmeding>	Inst: FWIW https://paste.tomsmeding.com/FKk61OAc
09:46:52	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb)
09:47:14	<tomsmeding>	poor man's solution, like arrow keys and function keys will just produce some escape sequences as you'll notice, but might be enough for your purposes
09:48:05	<Inst>	thanks, will check
09:48:27	→	cstml joins (~cstml@user/cstml)
09:49:02	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb) (Client Quit)
09:51:06	→	MajorBiscuit joins (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl)
09:51:37	×	MajorBiscuit quits (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Client Quit)
09:51:47	→	MajorBiscuit joins (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl)
09:55:22	→	__monty__ joins (~toonn@user/toonn)
10:00:53	→	perrierjouet joins (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
10:01:01	×	mikoto-chan quits (~mikoto-ch@213-139-178-171.co.dnainternet.fi) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
10:04:06	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb)
10:08:57	×	Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
10:14:03	×	cheater quits (~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
10:14:29	→	cheater joins (~Username@user/cheater)
10:15:47	→	madjestic joins (~madjestic@88-159-247-120.fixed.kpn.net)
10:17:07	→	eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
10:17:23	→	razetime joins (~quassel@49.207.203.87)
10:18:50	→	dhil joins (~dhil@cpc103052-sgyl39-2-0-cust260.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
10:19:28	→	euouae joins (~euouae@user/euouae)
10:19:42	×	gehmehgeh quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
10:19:43	<euouae>	Hello I am looking at the source code in Data.List
10:20:00	<euouae>	What are these Rules that I see in the comments?
10:20:23	→	gehmehgeh joins (~user@user/gehmehgeh)
10:20:29	<euouae>	ooh they're GHC rules, https://wiki.haskell.org/GHC/Using_rules I should've guessed
10:20:44	<c_wraith>	those are actually pragmas, not comments. (Instructions to the compiler that aren't part of the language itself)
10:20:53	<c_wraith>	Pragmas are enclosed in {-# #-}
10:21:05	<c_wraith>	Note the #s, which are not part of the comments
10:21:16	×	gehmehgeh quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Remote host closed the connection)
10:21:35	×	eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
10:21:49	<euouae>	right
10:21:59	→	gehmehgeh joins (~user@user/gehmehgeh)
10:23:12	→	mikoto-chan joins (~mikoto-ch@194.157.16.89)
10:23:15	<euouae>	Unfortunately that means the source code is harder to read... right?
10:24:54	<merijn>	euouae: yes, no, maybe, it depends :p
10:25:01	<c_wraith>	Most pragmas aren't important for meaning of the code, only for details that affect optimization
10:25:02	<euouae>	for example `concat xs = build (\c n -> foldr (\x y -> foldr c y x) n xs)` and `build g = g (:) []` with comments about how `build` is specially crafted to avoid GHC's simplifier?
10:25:27	<merijn>	euouae: effectively, the RULES in Data.List are optimisation that avoid building intermediate lists
10:25:34	<c_wraith>	the Language pragma is the one major exception, as it changes what code means in a lot of cases
10:25:48	<euouae>	merijn at the syntactic level?
10:26:25	<merijn>	euouae: Imagine "map f . map g", the 'map g' will build a new list, and so will 'map f' so building a list twice...you could replace it with 'map (f . g)' and only build one list
10:26:48	<merijn>	euouae: The rules are there to capture a lot of similar cases and transform them to be more efficient
10:27:04	×	yauhsien quits (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
10:27:05	×	Akiva quits (~Akiva@user/Akiva) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
10:27:07	<c_wraith>	You should basically ignore RULES pragmas in source, unless you're trying to understand performance characteristics
10:27:15	<merijn>	euouae: But that's not really important for the meaning of the code
10:27:28	<euouae>	OK I think I get it
10:27:36	<c_wraith>	... Except that it's possible to write buggy RULES. That's an unfortunate reality, but I've never actually seen it come up.
10:27:38	<euouae>	but I'm still curious, how is the map optimization accomplished?
10:27:39	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
10:27:44	→	yauhsien joins (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
10:28:03	<merijn>	euouae: Pretty sure there's a rule for converting 'map f . map g' into 'map (f . g)' :p
10:28:03	<euouae>	c_wraith so then they can't be ignored until they're fixed :P
10:28:33	→	dsrt^ joins (~dsrt@wsip-98-188-242-61.mc.at.cox.net)
10:28:52	<merijn>	euouae: The thing about rules is that they can apply after inlining code. So during compilation when the compiler inlines stuff, it might find matches for the pattern in rules that the programmer can't/doesn't see
10:28:55	<euouae>	merijn got it, so it's a literal rewrite of the source code
10:29:25	<euouae>	nice
10:29:44	<c_wraith>	in the more general case though though, there are rules for using foldr on a list created by build that skips actually allocating the intermediate list
10:29:48	<merijn>	euouae: Almost nobody (who isn't a beginner) will end up writing 'map f . map g' over 'map (f . g)', but once there's 10 different helpers, etc. involved code like "foo (+) bar" might up doing that anyway
10:30:05	<merijn>	the same for folds, repeated ++, etc.
10:31:19	<euouae>	c_wraith oh so `build` is useful insofar as writing rules goes! I get it
10:31:39	<c_wraith>	exactly
10:32:27	<tomsmeding>	c_wraith: "I've never actually seen it come up" it was a major issue with ghc 9.0: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/19345
10:32:40	×	lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Remote host closed the connection)
10:33:24	<c_wraith>	I suppose I should say I don't see it come up
10:33:34	<c_wraith>	... in released libraries
10:33:40	<c_wraith>	Though that one did get released!
10:33:45	<euouae>	marijn, that's smart. because of the inlining this optimization is useful even if the programmer is perfect
10:34:31	<euouae>	Unless say the programmer also guesses the inlining correctly, but yeah. I guess this rewriting idea must be a common optimization technique right?
10:34:47	→	DNH joins (~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:b0c0:5871:210d:15db)
10:35:04	<c_wraith>	well, it depends heavily on purity to be so broadly applicable
10:35:10	<merijn>	euouae: I mean, in general "inlining a bunch of stuff, then optimising away stuff that you now know statically" is a common application step
10:35:17	→	nschoe joins (~quassel@178.251.84.79)
10:35:23	<euouae>	right
10:35:54	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
10:36:10	→	mixfix41 joins (~homefame@user/mixfix41)
10:36:16	<merijn>	Purity helps. Any compiler class on optimisation will start with "here's a neat optimisation" and then go onto "here's why mutability wrecks our day and makes us invest decades to check when we are actually allowed to do it" :p
10:37:08	<euouae>	heh I can only imagine what GCC is doing
10:37:34	×	yauhsien quits (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
10:40:10	<merijn>	euouae: A simple example is that, when you use a typeclass polymorphic function (whether it's fmap or (+)) and the compiler statically knows the type, it can just use the correct function directly, without the typeclass indirection
10:40:35	→	yuri_ joins (~yuri@nat-0-31.msu.umos.ru)
10:40:55	<euouae>	there's cases where it's undetermined at compile time?
10:41:09	<merijn>	euouae: So if you inline a typeclass polymorphic function into a static expression (or other context with fixed compile time type), you avoid 100% of the cost of the indirection
10:41:32	<geekosaur>	polymorphic recursion is a thing
10:41:42	<c_wraith>	as a technical matter, GHC uses separate compilation. Sometimes it has to compile a function in a context where it's polymorphic, so it doesn't know what the type is
10:41:47	×	gustik quits (~gustik@2a01:c844:2436:6920:9e9:f97c:41d1:634c) (Quit: Leaving)
10:42:01	<merijn>	euouae: Well, consider situations where a value is made from user input at runtime
10:42:10	<c_wraith>	As a theoretical case, yeah - polymorphic recursion can happen. You can call a function on a type not known until runtime
10:42:14	<merijn>	Separate compilation to, yeah
10:43:58	→	yauhsien joins (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
10:44:17	×	Techcable quits (~Techcable@168.235.93.147) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
10:44:24	<euouae>	Oh I see, so the trick is to have e.g. the constructor take an argument of a more complicated type
10:44:36	<euouae>	wikipedia has `data Nested a = a :<: (Nested [a]) \| Epsilon` as an example
10:44:57	<c_wraith>	> let f :: Show a => Int -> a -> String ; f 0 x = show x ; f n x = f (n - 1) (x, x) in f 3 () -- euouae: or this
10:44:58	<lambdabot>	"((((),()),((),())),(((),()),((),())))"
10:45:16	<c_wraith>	the type show is called on depends on the Int parameter
10:45:55	<euouae>	isn't show called on a value, not a type?
10:46:11	<c_wraith>	yes. I meant to say the type it is called at
10:46:36	→	SummerSonw joins (~The_viole@203.77.49.232)
10:46:37	<euouae>	oh wow so this creates different instances of `f` depending on the argument
10:46:43	<euouae>	so the compiler has to provide a factory of f's for the runtime
10:46:45	×	fef quits (~thedawn@user/thedawn) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
10:46:49	<merijn>	euouae: Right
10:47:13	<tomsmeding>	it might be instructive to consider that 'Show a =>' an actual, normal argument
10:47:17	<euouae>	ah polymorphism has some tricky implications
10:47:34	<merijn>	tomsmeding: The origin discussion was that in a lot of cases that can be optimised away :p
10:47:49	<tomsmeding>	ah right -- except in cases like this
10:48:04	×	yauhsien quits (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
10:48:45	→	yauhsien joins (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
10:49:31	×	tzh quits (~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: zzz)
10:50:45	<euouae>	but this is undecidable right? so the compiler /tries/ to guess that `f` requires no factory, and if the compiler can't prove that in sufficient time it just creates a factory for it
10:51:11	<c_wraith>	actually, polymorphic recursion is easily detected.
10:51:49	<tomsmeding>	euouae: re your Nested example: this kind of stuff appears in the wild, e.g. in finger trees used in Data.Sequence; see e.g. https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3406088.3409026
10:51:53	<euouae>	What of `let f :: Show a => Int -> a -> String ; f 0 x = show x ; f n x = f (n - 1) x`, is that polymorphic recursion or not?
10:52:15	<merijn>	euouae: The type of each recursive call is different
10:52:20	<c_wraith>	it is. when it calls f recursively, the type is different
10:52:38	<tomsmeding>	no, because you changed (x, x) to just x :p
10:52:58	<euouae>	wait, those are conflicting answers
10:52:59	<merijn>	euouae: Consider "map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs" here, the recursive call of 'map' has the exact same type as the original call
10:53:22	<merijn>	euouae: You typed different code from c_wraith's version :p
10:53:39	<euouae>	I know it was on purpose... how is polymorphic recursion detected?
10:53:51	<euouae>	Is it just by asking if the type of the recursive call is different than the original?
10:54:13	<c_wraith>	yes. that's the definition of polymorphic recursion
10:54:15	<merijn>	euouae: asking whether it's different is hard
10:54:16	<tomsmeding>	you typecheck the whole thing, and check whether all the recursive calls have the same instantiations of the type parameters as the function itself
10:54:23	<merijn>	euouae: Asking whether it's the same is easy
10:54:31	<tomsmeding>	if not, it's potentially polymorphic recursion
10:54:42	<euouae>	merijn are you talking about equality versus equivalence of some sort?
10:54:51	<merijn>	euouae: So you just treat all cases that aren't the same as polymorphic
10:54:58	<euouae>	right
10:55:07	<merijn>	euouae: In the presence of parametric polymorphism you have cases where something "might be the same"
10:55:13	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
10:55:14	<tomsmeding>	there is an algorithm that distinguishes "surely the same" and "maybe different"
10:55:35	<merijn>	euouae: Consider: 'Nothing :: Maybe a'
10:55:47	<euouae>	tomsmeding thanks for that paper, looks interesting. I never read about finger trees so maybe soon is the time
10:55:56	<merijn>	Does Nothing have type 'Maybe Int'? It could...but it's not guaranteed
10:56:44	<euouae>	merijn Nothing gets a factory too?!
10:57:06	<merijn>	euouae: No, there's just one Nothing. But it's polymorphic, so its type fits many things
10:57:34	<merijn>	euouae: My point was just that "when it's polymorphic you can't really say it will be a specific type at runtime"
10:57:36	×	yuri_ quits (~yuri@nat-0-31.msu.umos.ru) (Quit: Leaving)
10:57:56	×	nschoe quits (~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
10:58:01	<euouae>	right
10:58:11	<euouae>	no I'm following. It's all new to me though
10:58:12	<tomsmeding>	Nothing _would_ get a factory, but that factory would always produce the same thing anyway, so let's not make the factory at all
10:58:19	<merijn>	euouae: It might not be knowable until runtime what the proper type for 'a' should be
10:58:36	<merijn>	euouae: So 'do these things have the same type' isn't answerable until runtime in that case
10:58:47	<merijn>	euouae: (at which point, you're too late :p)
10:59:01	→	fef joins (~thedawn@user/thedawn)
10:59:14	<euouae>	heh yeah
10:59:14	<merijn>	euouae: Which is why you can easily detect "these things are the same", but not "these things are not the same"
11:00:12	<merijn>	I mean, consider a worse version of f with 'f n x \| even n = f (n-1) [x]; \| otherwise = f (n-1) (x, x)"
11:00:41	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
11:01:09	<merijn>	> let f :: Show a => Int -> a -> String; f 0 x = show x; f n x \| even n = f (n-1) [x]; f n x = f (n-1) (x, x) in f 4 ()
11:01:11	<lambdabot>	"([([()],[()])],[([()],[()])])"
11:01:21	→	SnowNeo joins (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54)
11:01:24	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
11:01:28	<SnowNeo>	hello! anyone here
11:01:39	<SnowNeo>	jackdk dang you still here?
11:01:50	<jackdk>	SnowNeo: yeah mate
11:01:57	<SnowNeo>	nice nice, you free for a second?
11:02:04	<euouae>	merijn great stuff :D
11:02:23	<SnowNeo>	i'm basically trying to print a Floating point number
11:02:26	<jackdk>	yea for a bit, but just ask your question. Even if nobody can answer you might have insight just by wrangling it into text
11:02:29	<SnowNeo>	and having great problems
11:02:40	<jackdk>	go on
11:02:40	<SnowNeo>	`radicalcoolical outer inner = sqrt(outer^2*inner)`
11:02:48	<SnowNeo>	i want to print the result of this but I have no idea how
11:03:00	<SnowNeo>	\sqrt{3^{2}7}
11:03:07	<SnowNeo>	\sqrt{3^{2}7} = 3\sqrt{7}
11:03:11	→	lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
11:03:18	<jackdk>	"print" as in "I've performed this computation and I want it to appear on the terminal", or "print" as in "I wanna turn it into a string"?
11:03:31	<SnowNeo>	i wanna make it a string
11:03:37	<jackdk>	:t show
11:03:38	<lambdabot>	Show a => a -> String
11:03:43	<SnowNeo>	but that doesn't work
11:03:47	<euouae>	tomsmeding quick question, what is the name of a type such as the one I gave above from wikipedia? If they have a name
11:03:48	<jackdk>	> show 3.14
11:03:50	<lambdabot>	"3.14"
11:04:00	<SnowNeo>	well
11:04:10	<SnowNeo>	lemme send my code and the error
11:04:23	<SnowNeo>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/lfYS7UT6
11:04:24	<euouae>	parametric polymoprhic types?
11:04:51	<SnowNeo>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/lfYS7UT6 <- code
11:04:52	<SnowNeo>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/dV9ePzRa <- error
11:05:24	<SnowNeo>	works fine in ghci
11:05:42	<SnowNeo>	Prelude> radicalcoolical 3 7
11:05:43	<SnowNeo>	7.937253933193772
11:05:58	<SnowNeo>	but i don't know how ghci actually prints the values :/
11:06:00	<jackdk>	SnowNeo: yeah so that error is telling you the problem - inside that `do` block, you need to use IO actions
11:06:08	<jackdk>	:t putStrLn
11:06:09	<lambdabot>	String -> IO ()
11:06:20	<jackdk>	:t putStrLn (show 3.14)
11:06:21	<lambdabot>	IO ()
11:06:39	<jackdk>	but also there's a `print` function which is `print x = putStrLn (show x)`
11:06:41	<jackdk>	:t print
11:06:42	<lambdabot>	Show a => a -> IO ()
11:06:45	<SnowNeo>	oh my god tysm!
11:06:52	<SnowNeo>	you blow my mind every single time
11:07:00	<SnowNeo>	thanks a bunch jackdk
11:07:03	<jackdk>	np
11:07:08	<SnowNeo>	<3
11:07:09	<tomsmeding>	euouae: not sure :p
11:07:18	×	SnowNeo quits (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54) (Quit: Client closed)
11:07:18	→	Lord_of_Life joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
11:07:29	×	lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
11:07:34	<euouae>	maybe it should be polymorphic recursive type or such
11:08:07	<euouae>	this kind of thing makes it hard to reason about types
11:08:39	<euouae>	I'm also studying F* which on the outset looks kinda like haskell but I'm noticing that it does not have this feature, I don't think.
11:08:57	<tomsmeding>	euouae: the simplified finger trees paper I linked calls that phenomenom "non-regular recursion" (the sentence that goes over from page 1 to page 2)
11:10:13	→	raehik joins (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
11:11:38	×	zer0bitz quits (~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f444:a000:8153:e826:3459:f646) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
11:13:02	→	zer0bitz joins (~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f444:a000:8153:e826:3459:f646)
11:13:29	<jackdk>	the finger trees made simple talk is also excellent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip92VMpf_-A
11:14:01	<euouae>	nice, ty
11:14:12	<euouae>	Oh that's the author?
11:14:26	×	coot quits (~coot@89-64-85-93.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
11:14:49	<euouae>	yeah seems so, cool
11:15:14	<euouae>	Recently I've been trying to understand basic things about formal verification and how to use dependent type theory
11:15:18	→	coot joins (~coot@89-64-85-93.dynamic.chello.pl)
11:15:39	<euouae>	and this sort of thing about parametric polymorphism seems to be requiring proofs on the level of types themselves
11:17:16	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
11:18:17	×	xff0x quits (~xff0x@2001:1a81:5253:5900:c0c8:bfdc:4cf0:476f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
11:20:04	→	Topsi joins (~Tobias@dyndsl-095-033-018-101.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
11:20:28	×	econo quits (uid147250@user/econo) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
11:21:47	<euouae>	for example the simple formula `f x n = if n = 0 then x else f [x] n` can be proven to be such that `f x n === iterate singleton x !! n`
11:22:49	→	lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
11:23:34	<tomsmeding>	what even is the type of that f
11:23:45	<tomsmeding>	oh dependent types, /me nods
11:24:09	<euouae>	right but OK in the case of Haskell you can use `show` there
11:25:10	<euouae>	I think at this point I'm just rambling. I got a lot of new info, thanks everyone
11:27:09	×	lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
11:27:37	×	euouae quits (~euouae@user/euouae) (Quit: )
11:28:16	×	acidjnk quits (~acidjnk@p200300d0c7271e850c94254067925f57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
11:30:47	→	xff0x joins (~xff0x@2001:1a81:5253:5900:c0c8:bfdc:4cf0:476f)
11:32:11	×	fef quits (~thedawn@user/thedawn) (Remote host closed the connection)
11:33:29	<Inst>	right now, i have a case of expression and i'd like to do pattern matching
11:33:35	<Inst>	within the syntax case x of
11:33:44	<Inst>	x = three different expressions, and haskell is apparently letting me do this
11:34:05	<Inst>	in the k -> j, k i want to be 3 separate values for the different expressions
11:34:18	<Inst>	currently, i'm using tuples, but for performance reasons, i'd like to ditch the tuples
11:34:21	<Inst>	any idea what i can do?
11:35:31	→	cfricke joins (~cfricke@user/cfricke)
11:36:00	<Inst>	right now, i'm using a where block to define a function instead of case
11:36:09	<Inst>	but is there any way i can do this without the where block?
11:37:23	×	perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
11:38:53	<geekosaur>	show your code?
11:38:56	<geekosaur>	@paste
11:38:56	<lambdabot>	A pastebin: https://paste.debian.net/
11:41:16	×	dhil quits (~dhil@cpc103052-sgyl39-2-0-cust260.18-2.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
11:41:19	<Inst>	https://paste.debian.net/1227090/
11:41:37	<Inst>	the tupled version is actually more performant
11:41:42	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
11:41:51	<Inst>	or actually less resource intensive than the mainline version
11:42:37	<Inst>	with where
11:42:50	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
11:44:46	<geekosaur>	I don't think I understand what your problem is. I'd probably separate out the case expression for clarity, but as your code shows this isn't necessary syntactically
11:45:15	<Inst>	i'm trying to implement an imperative loop with checks in haskell
11:45:25	→	mastarija joins (~mastarija@2a05:4f46:e0e:5000:81fe:1ebc:de4c:76ed)
11:45:54	<Inst>	that is to say, there are three conditions, if they're met, a certain action occurs per condition (accumulator is increased), and if none are met, the accumulator is also increased (by a different amount)
11:46:17	<Inst>	the tupled version works, but i'd like to avoid the tuple
11:47:09	<geekosaur>	I think the only way you avoid it is by having separate `case-of`s, and in this case that would get fairly ugly
11:48:09	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb)
11:48:17	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
11:48:44	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
11:50:32	<geekosaur>	personally I'd just go with the tuples. even if you discarded them entirely and did pattern matching in the definition, you'd have a decent amount of code duplication
11:53:32	→	fef joins (~thedawn@user/thedawn)
11:53:50	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
11:54:32	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
11:54:32	<Inst>	there's a way to do it with where, bind the mod statements to k, it's a bit more succinct that way, but performance and resource penalty
11:57:45	<opticblast>	unboxed tuples? if you really want to be performant
11:59:46	×	MajorBiscuit quits (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
11:59:56	→	MajorBiscuit joins (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl)
12:00:01	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:00:11	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:02:27	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:02:29	<geekosaur>	pretty sure ghc already unboxes any strict tuple
12:02:40	×	Codaraxis_ quits (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (Remote host closed the connection)
12:03:00	→	Codaraxis_ joins (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis)
12:03:18	<geekosaur>	and since these are Ints or at least Integers, they're strict
12:03:36	×	kaph_ quits (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
12:05:04	<lortabac>	are Int's strict? I don't see any strictness annotation in the definition
12:05:41	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:05:50	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:05:55	×	fef quits (~thedawn@user/thedawn) (Remote host closed the connection)
12:05:59	<geekosaur>	they don't need one, Int# is necessarily strict because it's a machine word
12:06:35	<lortabac>	yes Int# is strict, but Int?
12:06:37	→	unknown__ joins (~thedawn@user/thedawn)
12:07:03	<geekosaur>	the only source of laziness is the I# wrapper and ghc treats that as strict because the underlying type and all basic operations are strict
12:07:33	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
12:08:47	<geekosaur>	basically the Int itself (I# Int#) is strict by necessity because the Int# is, the laziness comes in with whatever's holding an Int. in this case it's a tuple, and ghc will seek to make the tuple strict as one of the first optimizations it does. since I# Int# is strict, this is trivially satisfiable and the whole thing becomes strict
12:09:46	<geekosaur>	(this is also why ghci has no optimizations enabled, you can't turn off that strictifying-tuples optimization and ghc bytecode can't tell the difference between boxed and unboxed tuples so it crashes when it encounters an unboxed tuple)
12:10:15	×	razetime quits (~quassel@49.207.203.87) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
12:11:21	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:11:29	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:12:25	<lortabac>	geekosaur: what about the optimization of I#? is it enabled by -fstrictness or is it something else?
12:13:26	<geekosaur>	not sure I understand the question. a constructor tag can't separately be strict or lazy
12:15:02	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
12:15:54	<lortabac>	oh ok I see what you mean
12:15:59	<geekosaur>	again, any laziness comes with whatever's holding the whole vslue. and in this case ghc really wants to strictify that tuple, so it'll look inside and see three strict values and go ahead and strictify and unbox the tuple
12:16:26	<geekosaur>	things would rapidly become really confused if the constructor tag were separately allowed to be lazy
12:16:37	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:17:26	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:17:33	→	kaph joins (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
12:18:34	<geekosaur>	hm, although I guess we do not know that the values originally were strict, since it could have been produced by a lazy function. that said, it's going into a case-of, and pattern matching strictifies by default so it still works out
12:18:47	<Inst>	btw
12:18:58	×	cfricke quits (~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:19:26	<Inst>	my cabal refuses to install packages, it can't determine the version of ghc
12:19:38	<Inst>	i've been manually editing my GHCup managed GHC installation
12:19:53	<geekosaur>	did you select a particular ghc?
12:20:11	<geekosaur>	("ghcup tui" is good for checking and managing this)
12:21:18	<geekosaur>	also doublecheck $PATH is set properly. there should be a file ~/.ghcup/env that you can "." or "source" from your shell startup files
12:21:45	×	CiaoSen quits (~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:22:52	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:23:17	→	CiaoSen joins (~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
12:23:23	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:23:34	→	ksqsf joins (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:9111:d58c:6bc4:c652)
12:23:51	×	yauhsien quits (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
12:24:32	→	yauhsien joins (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
12:26:16	→	Techcable joins (~Techcable@168.235.93.147)
12:28:31	×	mikoto-chan quits (~mikoto-ch@194.157.16.89) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:28:55	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:29:19	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:30:09	<maerwald>	Inst: manually editing?
12:30:43	<Inst>	the shim files
12:30:50	<maerwald>	you're on windows?
12:31:12	<Inst>	yeah
12:31:22	<maerwald>	you shouldn't do that lol
12:31:32	<Inst>	i don't dev enough to learn *nix
12:31:41	<Inst>	going to get a Macbook Air in May
12:31:57	→	cfricke joins (~cfricke@user/cfricke)
12:32:03	<maerwald>	if you want to set the default ghc to 8.10.7 run: ghcup set ghc 8.10.7
12:32:11	<Inst>	and probably if my fucking computer stops being a piece of shit (i.e, it's reliable), I'll update the workstation laptop with a new SSD and install Arch Linux on it
12:32:12	<maerwald>	unfortunately, windows doesn't have 'ghcup tui'
12:32:16	→	burnsidesLlama joins (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
12:32:21	<geekosaur>	you can install wsl2 now, although there are quite a few differences between linux and os x
12:32:25	<geekosaur>	oh :(
12:32:42	<maerwald>	yeah, brick has no windows support
12:32:53	<maerwald>	unsurprisingly
12:33:00	<Inst>	"the version of ghc 9.0.1 is not supported"
12:33:03	<Inst>	oh, no wonder
12:33:30	×	cfricke quits (~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Client Quit)
12:33:36	×	whatsupdoc quits (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
12:33:37	<maerwald>	I'm still confused why I'm not getting any windows user bug reports... because they don't know how to report bugs or because there are none?
12:33:39	<Inst>	i don't have 9.0.1 installed
12:33:40	→	cfricke joins (~cfricke@user/cfricke)
12:33:46	<maerwald>	Inst: ghcup install ghc 9.0.1
12:34:00	<Inst>	can ghcup uninstall? I don't need ghc 9.0.2
12:34:04	<maerwald>	yes
12:34:07	<geekosaur>	at this point (a) if I used 9.x at all it'd be 9.0.2 (b) still stick to 8.10.7
12:34:10	<maerwald>	ghcup rm ghc 9.0.2
12:34:21	×	yauhsien quits (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
12:34:24	<maerwald>	but 9.0.1 isn't really a good choice
12:34:32	<maerwald>	unless you like to have soundness issues in your code
12:34:35	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:34:46	<Inst>	doip, but HLS hasn't updated to support 9.0.2 yet :(
12:34:50	<maerwald>	true
12:35:00	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:35:02	→	yauhsien joins (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
12:35:08	<Inst>	i'd rather it just support 9.2.1
12:35:22	<geekosaur>	that'll take more work
12:35:36	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:35:49	<geekosaur>	they redid a bunch of stuff, in the long run things should work better but in the short run there's a fair number of breaking changes
12:35:57	×	nunggu quits (~q@gateway/tor-sasl/nunggu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
12:36:06	<geekosaur>	"should work better" meaning it should be easier to support new versions
12:36:10	<Inst>	i'm fairly annoyed that they changed record syntax
12:36:12	<Inst>	now it's confusing with .
12:36:17	×	CiaoSen quits (~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
12:36:28	<geekosaur>	you have to enable that
12:36:28	<Inst>	totally should have tried screwing a different operator instead
12:36:33	<Inst>	oh, so an option
12:36:37	<Inst>	nice
12:36:39	→	nunggu joins (~q@gateway/tor-sasl/nunggu)
12:36:42	<geekosaur>	RecordDotSyntax
12:36:48	<geekosaur>	iirc
12:37:15	<geekosaur>	they did seriously discuss using # instead. but users wanted .
12:37:15	<Inst>	jesus, my ghcup is already 10 gb
12:37:33	<maerwald>	Inst: ghcup gc --help
12:37:35	<Inst>	the lack of windows support with haskell ecosystem is bad
12:37:37	×	burnsidesLlama quits (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
12:38:12	→	burnsidesLlama joins (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
12:38:14	<Inst>	haskell imo has to get them early / get them young
12:38:23	→	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb)
12:38:35	<Inst>	if people wanted to do FP, the FP support in mainstream languages is increasingly good
12:38:52	<Inst>	and they avoid Haskell's purity issues with GUI, they avoid Haskell's issues with unpredictable and lost performance
12:39:43	<Inst>	only thing that really makes me want to learn Haskell, despite seeing that there's a huge moountain to climb
12:39:46	<Inst>	haskell syntax is bae
12:40:38	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:41:30	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:42:22	×	burnsidesLlama quits (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:43:17	×	In0perable quits (~PLAYER_1@fancydata.science) (Quit: All your buffer are belong to us!)
12:43:37	<maerwald>	salt bae?
12:46:39	AlexNoo_	is now known as AlexNoo
12:46:42	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:46:54	→	geranim0 joins (~geranim0@modemcable242.171-178-173.mc.videotron.ca)
12:47:18	→	merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
12:47:37	→	Inoperable joins (~PLAYER_1@fancydata.science)
12:49:40	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
12:49:47	→	biog joins (~user1@static.39.160.132.142.clients.your-server.de)
12:56:14	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:56:25	×	max22- quits (~maxime@2a01cb08833598000a8db68817efc706.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
12:59:46	×	LiaoTao quits (~LiaoTao@gateway/tor-sasl/liaotao) (Remote host closed the connection)
13:01:00	<Inst>	bae is apparently some youth slang for baby
13:01:06	→	LiaoTao joins (~LiaoTao@gateway/tor-sasl/liaotao)
13:01:19	<Inst>	as a term of endearment
13:05:06	×	cfricke quits (~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
13:05:47	×	hughjfchen quits (~hughjfche@vmi556545.contaboserver.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
13:05:49	<maerwald>	TIL
13:05:59	→	Erutuon joins (~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
13:06:39	<merijn>	more like babe, imho
13:06:59	<geekosaur>	no, "bae" is a thing
13:07:12	<geekosaur>	not sure I want to know why
13:07:28	<merijn>	geekosaur: I meant bae is more like babe than baby
13:08:30	<merijn>	it'a just a written form of letting the final syllable drop
13:08:45	×	Topsi quits (~Tobias@dyndsl-095-033-018-101.ewe-ip-backbone.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
13:08:46	→	hughjfchen joins (~hughjfche@vmi556545.contaboserver.net)
13:09:06	<maerwald>	babe is a subset of baby?
13:09:57	<merijn>	only if your opinion is that words are exclusively defined by their dictionary meaning with zero emotional connotations and context
13:10:08	<maerwald>	of course
13:11:11	→	zincy joins (~zincy@host86-151-99-97.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
13:12:03	<merijn>	in other news...my typo rate is gonna skyrocket until I get used to the new keyboard >.>
13:12:48	<Clint>	that's called progress
13:13:52	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
13:14:51	→	epolanski joins (uid312403@id-312403.helmsley.irccloud.com)
13:14:57	→	burnsidesLlama joins (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
13:17:42	→	shriekingnoise joins (~shrieking@156-16-231-201.fibertel.com.ar)
13:21:22	×	zincy quits (~zincy@host86-151-99-97.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
13:21:39	×	Erutuon quits (~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
13:21:47	×	burnsidesLlama quits (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
13:25:41	→	cfricke joins (~cfricke@user/cfricke)
13:26:16	→	perrierjouet joins (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
13:28:44	×	ksqsf quits (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:9111:d58c:6bc4:c652) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
13:29:20	×	MajorBiscuit quits (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
13:29:29	→	MajorBiscuit joins (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl)
13:32:19	→	nschoe joins (~quassel@178.251.84.79)
13:32:31	→	slack1256 joins (~slack1256@191.125.99.72)
13:33:30	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
13:34:35	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
13:37:05	<Inst>	okay
13:37:25	<Inst>	i have cabal complaining that it can't determine the version of ghc-pkg.exe
13:38:48	<Inst>	also, for my gui issue, readline has IO String / char solutions for my problem
13:39:22	×	perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
13:41:13	→	Guest21 joins (~Guest21@2a00:23c8:1510:8b01:f5c5:cd35:22b1:ed5c)
13:43:09	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
13:47:48	<maerwald>	Inst: can you pastebin the exact error?
13:47:53	<maerwald>	I believe I've heard that one before
13:49:34	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
13:49:37	→	perrierjouet joins (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca)
13:49:54	<maerwald>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/issues/197
13:50:23	<maerwald>	are you on windows 7?
13:51:57	→	jkaye joins (~jkaye@2601:281:8300:7530:91a1:7dca:589a:aaae)
13:52:01	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
13:52:25	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
13:53:55	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
13:56:43	→	max22- joins (~maxime@2a01cb088335980019ec243b097a98b9.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
13:58:16	×	Guest21 quits (~Guest21@2a00:23c8:1510:8b01:f5c5:cd35:22b1:ed5c) (Quit: Client closed)
14:02:42	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
14:06:56	×	max22- quits (~maxime@2a01cb088335980019ec243b097a98b9.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
14:13:33	→	burnsidesLlama joins (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
14:14:19	→	pera joins (~pera@user/pera)
14:20:06	×	FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
14:20:28	→	FinnElija joins (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
14:21:09	→	eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
14:21:36	×	MajorBiscuit quits (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
14:22:32	→	stef204 joins (~stef204@user/stef204)
14:23:01	×	stef204 quits (~stef204@user/stef204) (Client Quit)
14:25:30	×	eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
14:27:14	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
14:28:16	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
14:28:16	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
14:28:16	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
14:29:39	→	n3rdy1 joins (~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480::41)
14:31:34	×	notzmv quits (~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
14:32:48	→	MajorBiscuit joins (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl)
14:33:20	<geekosaur>	kinda wish (a) linux had ^T (b) cabal-install supported it
14:33:36	→	ksqsf joins (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:7dce:871f:1852:dbd6)
14:33:57	×	madjestic quits (~madjestic@88-159-247-120.fixed.kpn.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
14:35:40	×	geekosaur quits (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Quit: Leaving)
14:35:45	×	da39a3ee5e6b4b0d quits (~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:44a7:987:8de2:98bb) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
14:36:14	<merijn>	what do you mean?
14:36:41	<byorgey>	^T as in swap the previous two characters??
14:36:58	→	geekosaur joins (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
14:40:20	→	stef204 joins (~stef204@user/stef204)
14:40:47	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
14:41:05	→	ec joins (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
14:42:19	→	IndecisionTree joins (mike@user/IndecisionTree)
14:45:53	→	emad joins (~emad@102.42.146.250)
14:49:53	×	pera quits (~pera@user/pera) (Quit: leaving)
14:50:02	<pavonia>	Matrix transposition
14:50:04	→	max22- joins (~maxime@2a01cb0883359800ad92d79b8ec75caf.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
14:50:20	←	f33d1[m] parts (~g0nkstead@2001:470:69fc:105::1:320b) ()
14:50:24	→	xkuru joins (~xkuru@user/xkuru)
14:54:27	×	xb0o2 quits (~xb0o2@user/xb0o2) (Quit: Client closed)
14:54:34	<geekosaur>	status, on *bsd
14:55:05	<geekosaur>	so for example cabal-install could trap SIGSTAT and report what it's working on currently and around how far it is
14:55:57	<maerwald>	not sure cabal-install knows that
14:56:30	<geekosaur>	linus has consistently rejectred supporting it or anything like it because it's a bit of an ugly hack… but looking at the rest of the linux kernel I don't see how that's any different :)
14:57:29	<geekosaur>	it captures logs and can parse e.g. [3 of 197]
14:57:34	×	ksqsf quits (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:7dce:871f:1852:dbd6) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
14:59:05	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
14:59:11	→	EvanR joins (~EvanR@user/evanr)
15:07:57	→	shapr joins (~user@2601:7c0:c37c:46d0:c5e9:5422:b6fa:e10b)
15:10:01	×	dsrt^ quits (~dsrt@wsip-98-188-242-61.mc.at.cox.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
15:12:13	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
15:12:19	→	slowButPresent joins (~slowButPr@user/slowbutpresent)
15:14:28	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
15:14:57	→	xb0o2 joins (~xb0o2@user/xb0o2)
15:15:02	×	pavonia quits (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
15:16:06	→	Guest1824 joins (~Guest18@2a02:8388:6bc1:1d00:6d47:dee9:5eda:9fbe)
15:16:17	×	n3rdy1 quits (~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480::41) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
15:19:06	<Guest1824>	hi all. I'm looking for a function `[a] -> [[[a]]]`, that given a list produces all possible combinations of sublists, such that each combination concats to the original list, if that makes sense
15:21:07	<Guest1824>	e.g. foo [1,2,3] -> [ [ [1], [2], [3] ], [ [1], [2, 3] ], [ [1, 2], [3] ], [ [1, 2, 3] ] ]
15:22:03	<EvanR>	all possible list factorizations (relative to ++) xD
15:22:22	<Guest1824>	yes
15:22:24	<EvanR>	sounds like a job for the list monad
15:23:42	<EvanR>	:t inits
15:23:42	→	cosimone joins (~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:c24a:d20:4d91:1e20)
15:23:43	<lambdabot>	[a] -> [[a]]
15:23:44	→	ksqsf joins (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:7dce:871f:1852:dbd6)
15:24:24	→	lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
15:24:55	<EvanR>	hmm, if you had a function to return all cuts of a list, then you can map each one of those over the recursive question function and then join
15:25:28	<EvanR>	cuts :: [a] -> [([a],[a])]
15:25:42	<EvanR>	or, breaks
15:28:03	<EvanR>	factor xs = concatMap (\l r -> map (l ++) (factor r)) (breaks xs)
15:28:19	<EvanR>	er
15:28:20	×	ksqsf quits (~user@2001:da8:d800:611:7dce:871f:1852:dbd6) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
15:28:23	<EvanR>	factor xs = concatMap (\l r -> map (l:) (factor r)) (breaks xs)
15:28:43	×	lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
15:29:27	→	n3rdy1 joins (~n3rdy1@2600:1700:4570:3480:1b88:50f:dae0:9293)
15:29:32	<EvanR>	factor xs = concatMap (\(l,r) -> map (l:) (factor r)) (breaks xs)
15:29:38	<EvanR>	at this point, to the ghci mobile
15:29:53	<xsperry>	> let xs = [1..3] in zip (inits xs) (tails xs)
15:29:53	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
15:29:54	<lambdabot>	[([],[1,2,3]),([1],[2,3]),([1,2],[3]),([1,2,3],[])]
15:30:06	<EvanR>	i forgot about tails xD
15:30:15	→	cdeln joins (~cdeln@m83-185-94-137.cust.tele2.se)
15:30:20	<xsperry>	it is missing [1], [2], [3] though
15:30:37	<EvanR>	that implements breaks though
15:30:57	×	Techcable quits (~Techcable@168.235.93.147) (Remote host closed the connection)
15:31:06	→	Techcable joins (~Techcable@168.235.93.147)
15:31:30	<cdeln>	hello
15:31:44	<geekosaur>	o/
15:32:42	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
15:33:19	←	jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
15:33:41	<cdeln>	first time using irc, cool stuff
15:34:10	→	jakalx joins (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
15:34:52	<Guest1824>	EvanR: this function is tricky >:D
15:35:04	<EvanR>	did that factor idea work?
15:35:27	<Guest1824>	not yet. but the idea definitely makes sense
15:36:26	×	stef204 quits (~stef204@user/stef204) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
15:36:32	→	Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
15:38:04	<EvanR>	to get fancy... something like... do { (l,r) <- breaks xs; fmap (l:) (loop r) }
15:39:01	<EvanR>	= loop xs
15:39:55	<cdeln>	I have a question about HTTP(S). What libs do you think that I should look into? Browsing hackage there seem to be quite a few.
15:43:36	<Profpatsch>	Can I :reload cabal packages in my `cabal repl`?
15:44:00	<Profpatsch>	e.g. I have a separate package coming from /cabal.project and I change something in it, can I tell cabal to reload the package incrementally?
15:44:14	<sclv>	no
15:44:22	<Profpatsch>	schade
15:44:28	<Profpatsch>	sclv: do you have a workaround?
15:44:35	<merijn>	That's a fundamental limitation in ghci atm
15:44:36	<sclv>	no
15:44:52	<merijn>	I think someone was working on multi-component ghci, but it's not done, afaik
15:44:57	<Profpatsch>	Very close to building my own wrapper which generates a cabal file with all the modules in hs-source-dirs and all the dependencies merged
15:45:20	<Profpatsch>	So you can develop as if everything was in the same package, but package with different packages
15:45:34	<Profpatsch>	Generate one cabal file for one use case, generate another for the other
15:46:00	→	euandreh joins (~euandreh@2804:14c:33:9fe5:6113:2671:c33c:ef4a)
15:46:01	<Profpatsch>	Transparently switch between treating some packages as static (and pre-compile instead of interpret) and making everything run interpreted
15:46:36	<Profpatsch>	Use a toml config file to not feel dead inside
15:47:11	<Guest1824>	EvanR: using your recursive definition with concatMap gives me only []. my definition of breaks is: `breaks xs = zipWith ($) (map splitAt [1..length xs]) (repeat xs)`
15:47:33	<EvanR>	try xsperry's version of breaks
15:47:57	<EvanR>	well, if it works, then my code's broke
15:48:22	×	kaph quits (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
15:48:37	←	jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client)
15:49:14	→	[itchyjunk] joins (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
15:49:30	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
15:49:32	<Guest1824>	xsperry's version has ([], xs) as the first element though, which causes infinite recursion, afaics
15:50:19	<EvanR>	shoot
15:50:22	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
15:50:52	×	xff0x quits (~xff0x@2001:1a81:5253:5900:c0c8:bfdc:4cf0:476f) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
15:51:51	→	xff0x joins (~xff0x@2001:1a81:5253:5900:d5e3:e4eb:c9c5:42b2)
15:55:13	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
15:55:47	→	jakalx joins (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
15:56:23	×	jgeerds quits (~jgeerds@55d4bbed.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
15:57:34	<Cale>	cdeln: As a client? I've mostly used http-conduit for that.
15:57:59	→	ProfSimm joins (~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg)
15:58:08	→	bontaq joins (~user@ool-45779fe5.dyn.optonline.net)
15:58:31	<Cale>	merijn: I think I heard the other day that multi-component ghci was basically working on HEAD now :)
15:58:49	×	dut quits (~dut@user/dut) (Quit: Leaving)
15:59:13	<Cale>	(but I could have misunderstood or something, I'm not involved in that)
15:59:53	×	nschoe quits (~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
16:00:17	×	xddq[m] quits (~xddqmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::bfd8) (Quit: You have been kicked for being idle)
16:00:23	<Guest1824>	EvanR: got it working now. the base case simply was missing :-)
16:00:36	→	xddq[m] joins (~xddqmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::bfd8)
16:00:41	<EvanR>	bah, that just means it was co-working
16:01:11	←	xddq[m] parts (~xddqmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::bfd8) ()
16:01:29	×	Kaipi quits (~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:01:31	×	SummerSonw quits (~The_viole@203.77.49.232) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:01:46	→	Kaipi joins (~Kaiepi@156.34.47.253)
16:02:31	<Guest1824>	heh. thanks for your help!
16:03:09	<Cale>	Profpatsch, merijn: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/6805
16:03:47	→	stef204 joins (~stef204@user/stef204)
16:03:52	×	merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
16:06:32	<Cale>	https://mpickering.github.io/ide/posts/2020-10-12-multiple-home-units.html -- the high-level overview
16:06:32	<fendor[m]>	note, this does not have proper ghci support yet, iirc
16:06:34	unknown__	is now known as fef
16:07:18	<geekosaur>	yeh, that seemed to be the last "future work" entry
16:08:18	<Cale>	Ahh
16:08:24	<geekosaur>	also no backpack support although I'm not sure if anyone cares
16:08:35	<EvanR>	:'(
16:08:56	<geekosaur>	there's a backpack internal that doesn't support multiple home units
16:09:10	<geekosaur>	they have to sort out how to teach it that without breaking everything
16:09:16	<cdeln>	Cale: Yes exactly. I am a bit confused about getResponseHeader giving a [ByteString] . Do you know why it's a list and not just ByteString? Would be nice to get something like (MimeType, Encoding) instead...
16:09:43	→	kaph joins (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
16:10:04	<Cale>	It gives you all the response headers that have the given name
16:10:17	<Cale>	There's no guarantee that there's only one, sadly.
16:11:14	→	Rum joins (~bourbon@user/rum)
16:12:54	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
16:12:58	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
16:13:15	<cdeln>	Oh really? So in practice you just grab the first one and move on with your life i guess
16:13:28	<Cale>	For those ones, probably
16:13:42	→	CiaoSen joins (~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
16:13:44	<EvanR>	if there is even a first one xD
16:13:49	<Cale>	Some of the possible headers it makes a bit more sense why there might be more than one
16:15:08	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:15:19	→	nschoe joins (~quassel@178.251.84.79)
16:16:35	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
16:16:43	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
16:16:46	<Cale>	(especially the Via: header, where each proxy or gateway that forwards the response will have added its own)
16:17:21	<cdeln>	Ok, makes sense for this level of abstraction in the http-conduit API.
16:18:10	<cdeln>	Do you know of any lib that parses HTTP stuff to a proper ADT?
16:18:22	<wmacmil>	i've upgraded ghc (8.10.7) and now a project which used import Data.Aeson is now not finding it
16:18:47	<cdeln>	I want to pattern match on the media type, wondering if i need to parse the content type header myself or not
16:18:51	<wmacmil>	when i run "cabal install aeson" it gives me this @ WARNING: Installation might not be completed as desired! @
16:19:05	×	stef204 quits (~stef204@user/stef204) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
16:19:21	<geekosaur>	if you are doing this the old-gfashioned way then you want to add --lib
16:19:31	<cdeln>	EvanR: True :p gotta do some Maybe wrapping
16:19:37	<geekosaur>	but ideally you make a cabal project and let cabal manage the deps for you instead of doing it manually
16:20:24	<geekosaur>	this avoids things like version collisions between multiple projects
16:22:27	→	waleee joins (~waleee@2001:9b0:21d:fc00:398f:b003:b90d:acf4)
16:22:46	<Cale>	cdeln: I don't know of anything too nice in that direction. Presumably it shouldn't be impossible to write some parsers for further processing the various HTTP headers and use them alongside something like http-conduit. I suspect that everyone is currently just looking for particular details and processing things by hand.
16:23:40	<geekosaur>	I'm pretty sure there is no general HTTP/HTML ADT that is any better than just working with HTTP/HTML directly
16:23:55	<Cale>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/http-media -- this looks vaguely related
16:24:48	<Cale>	(but it's kind of a different thing really)
16:26:06	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
16:26:06	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
16:26:06	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
16:26:17	<Cale>	(Yeah, I think it's meant more for use on the server side to select a form of content to deliver)
16:26:20	<wmacmil>	@geekosaur : where's the best place to read about this? so do i just run 'cabal init' and 'cabal run' and then add aeson as a dependency in 'code.cabal'
16:26:20	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
16:27:23	<geekosaur>	that's part of it. you also use a cabal.project file although it may only contain a "src" stanza, then cabal v2-build
16:27:56	×	lortabac quits (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:58ed:c475:7de8:f0f9) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
16:28:18	<geekosaur>	it should manage building dependencies automatically and make them available only to your project (but if some other project at some point needs the same version of the same dependency/ies, it'll reuse them instead of rebuilding)
16:28:30	<cdeln>	Cale: Ok thx. Yeah looks so..
16:28:34	→	merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
16:28:54	<geekosaur>	you get some real messes when you install dependencies "globally" which is why tools like cabal (v2+) and stack exist
16:29:08	→	Akiva joins (~Akiva@user/Akiva)
16:32:46	<wmacmil>	do you manually add them to .cabal, or is there a way to do it from the
16:32:49	<wmacmil>	command line
16:33:11	<geekosaur>	currently you add them manually
16:33:22	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
16:34:30	×	cfricke quits (~cfricke@user/cfricke) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
16:35:32	<wmacmil>	so once you've added them, how to do you tell cabal to update
16:36:05	<wmacmil>	just cabal update?
16:36:08	<sclv>	you just "cabal build" again or "cabal repl" or whatever
16:36:13	<sclv>	and it picks it up from the changed file
16:36:30	<sclv>	`cabal update` just tells cabal to fetch the new package index from hackage if any new packages have been uploaded, etc
16:37:01	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:37:07	→	lbseale joins (~ep1ctetus@user/ep1ctetus)
16:39:18	<fendor[m]>	is "sort" an overloaded (ad-hoc polymorphic) function because it depends on Ord or is it a parametric polymorphic function since it basically has only one function-body?
16:39:18	×	cdeln quits (~cdeln@m83-185-94-137.cust.tele2.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:39:26	→	cdeln joins (~cdeln@m83-185-94-137.cust.tele2.se)
16:42:17	×	Akiva quits (~Akiva@user/Akiva) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
16:42:45	→	notzmv joins (~zmv@user/notzmv)
16:43:03	→	ph88 joins (~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:71d0::7e04)
16:43:47	×	coot quits (~coot@89-64-85-93.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
16:44:00	<jchia[m]>	I want to do "[x] <- .." in a do block without requiring a MonadFail instance. I want the program to just error/crash if the pattern match fails. Is there a ergonomic way to do this? Currently, GHC complains "Could not deduce (MonadFail m) arising from a do statement with the failable pattern...".
16:45:34	<EvanR>	fendor[m], it's "constrained polymorphism", the Ord support is magically passed as another argument at runtime
16:45:42	×	[itchyjunk] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
16:46:05	<EvanR>	so it's a subset of parametric
16:46:34	→	cosimone` joins (~user@93-44-186-159.ip98.fastwebnet.it)
16:46:52	<geekosaur>	jchia[m], MonadFail is what adds the code that enables it to crash at runtime, so no
16:47:29	<jchia[m]>	geekosaur: But I can use error in a monad without MonadFail, correct?
16:49:04	<sclv>	I'd say looking up the dictionary is ad-hoc polymorphism, and sorting relative to the dictionary is parametric polymorphism
16:49:16	<geekosaur>	you can, manually (and presuming you make sure an asynchronous exception is the right thing to do; for example, in IO it makes much more sense to throwIO). ghc won't
16:49:22	×	cosimone quits (~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:c24a:d20:4d91:1e20) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
16:49:32	<geekosaur>	it demands MonadFail and there is no way to turn this off
16:49:42	<jchia[m]>	I'm allowed to do "xs <- ...; let [x] = xs", it's just more long winded
16:49:45	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
16:50:08	<sclv>	x <- head <$> ..
16:50:25	→	eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
16:50:40	×	nschoe quits (~quassel@178.251.84.79) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
16:50:44	<jchia[m]>	so i'm hoping to find a more direct way. the pattern should not fail unless i have a bug
16:50:51	<sclv>	right, so use head
16:51:20	<jchia[m]>	thanks, that works
16:51:34	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
16:52:28	<geekosaur>	it's not quite identical since head will silently throw away the rest of a 2-item or more list, whereas your original demands an exactly 1 item list
16:53:15	<fendor[m]>	EvanR: Thanks!
16:53:17	<EvanR>	[x] <- looks better because you are daring the program to challenge your certitude that the result is a singleton
16:54:06	<EvanR>	exercised truth is more true than assumed truth
16:54:10	<EvanR>	or something
16:54:25	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.2.1/docs/GHC-Utils-Misc.html#v:only
16:54:47	<maerwald>	eh, `singleton` rather
16:54:59	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
16:55:39	×	cdeln quits (~cdeln@m83-185-94-137.cust.tele2.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:57:50	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
16:57:50	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
16:57:50	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
16:58:08	×	chele quits (~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection)
16:58:08	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:58:42	→	vicfred joins (~vicfred@user/vicfred)
16:59:05	→	jackson99 joins (~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com)
17:00:46	<jchia[m]>	[x] <- looks better, but GHC doesn't allow me to use it. What's the rational for GHC requiring MonadFail considering that error could be used regardless of MonadFail?
17:01:42	<maerwald>	error sucks
17:01:55	×	Rum quits (~bourbon@user/rum) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
17:02:21	<jchia[m]>	How so?
17:02:25	→	mikoto-chan joins (~mikoto-ch@194.157.16.89)
17:02:34	<maerwald>	eh, because it can escape your exception handler due to laziness
17:02:47	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:02:52	<geekosaur>	that was a large part of what I meant by the conmment about throwIO
17:03:00	×	slack1256 quits (~slack1256@191.125.99.72) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
17:03:04	<geekosaur>	error will bite your ass at some point
17:03:06	→	slac97765 joins (~slack1256@191.126.99.72)
17:03:19	<jchia[m]>	I just want my program to crash if there is a bug
17:03:29	<EvanR>	error "foo" is a thunk that if evaluated, crashes
17:03:41	<EvanR>	length [1, 2, error "foo", 3]
17:03:46	<EvanR>	> length [1, 2, error "foo", 3]
17:03:48	<lambdabot>	4
17:03:57	<EvanR>	to crash IO, use throwIO
17:04:06	<jackson99>	> sum [1, 2, error "foo", 3]
17:04:15	<jackson99>	> sum [1, 2, error "foo", 3]
17:04:16	<lambdabot>	*Exception: foo
17:04:30	<jchia[m]>	I suppose one has to be mindful of evaluation when using it.
17:04:44	<geekosaur>	yes
17:04:49	<geekosaur>	which is why ghc doesn't
17:05:04	<maerwald>	if you use error, then you will have to `evaluate . force $ pureComputation` if you wanna catch it
17:05:04	<geekosaur>	it can't know whether you will force evaluation of it
17:05:10	<jackson99>	even better to not use it in the first place. use Maybe/Either/Something similar in non-IO functions, and throw in IO functions
17:05:27	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:05:27	<EvanR>	also catching error is... not proper etiquette
17:05:37	×	merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:05:48	×	MajorBiscuit quits (~MajorBisc@wlan-145-94-216-150.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
17:05:50	×	kaph quits (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
17:06:36	×	lbseale quits (~ep1ctetus@user/ep1ctetus) (Quit: Leaving)
17:07:08	<EvanR>	you can also throw exceptions from pure code
17:07:12	<EvanR>	:t throw
17:07:13	<lambdabot>	Exception e => e -> a
17:07:25	<EvanR>	but it has the same "gotchas" as error
17:07:55	<maerwald>	@hoogle MonadThrow
17:07:55	<lambdabot>	Control.Monad.Catch class Monad m => MonadThrow m
17:07:55	<lambdabot>	Conduit class Monad m => MonadThrow (m :: Type -> Type)
17:07:55	<lambdabot>	Control.Monad.Trans.Resource class Monad m => MonadThrow (m :: Type -> Type)
17:08:16	→	lbseale joins (~ep1ctetus@user/ep1ctetus)
17:08:28	<EvanR>	use MonadThrow to throw exceptions from a monad
17:08:49	<maerwald>	it's neat, because you can decide whether you wanna turn it into Maybe or cause a real exception in IO
17:08:56	<jchia[m]>	> error "foo" :: Either Bool Bool
17:08:58	<lambdabot>	*Exception: foo
17:09:01	×	lbseale quits (~ep1ctetus@user/ep1ctetus) (Client Quit)
17:09:12	<EvanR>	> Left "foo"
17:09:13	<jchia[m]>	[error "foo" :: Either Bool Bool]
17:09:14	<lambdabot>	Left "foo"
17:09:29	<jchia[m]>	* length [error "foo"
17:09:34	<EvanR>	> throwError "foo" :: Either String Int
17:09:36	<lambdabot>	Left "foo"
17:09:56	×	DNH quits (~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:b0c0:5871:210d:15db) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
17:10:19	<jackson99>	I like MonadThrow too. caller can pick between Maybe, Either, List or IO exception
17:10:45	<maerwald>	right... because having functions returning Maybe all the time is annoying when you're in IO and don't really care about it
17:12:43	→	DNH joins (~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:b0c0:5871:210d:15db)
17:13:10	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/relude-1.0.0.1/docs/Relude-List.html
17:13:16	<maerwald>	not a fan of that api
17:13:28	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
17:13:56	×	aeka quits (~aeka@user/hiruji) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
17:14:28	<EvanR>	!!? returns a Maybe. So then you can safely use the maybe with safeFromJust :: Maybe a -> Maybe a xD
17:14:31	×	epolanski quits (uid312403@id-312403.helmsley.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
17:14:47	<jchia[m]>	My programs are command-line apps that don't try to recover from errors, including errors due to bad input data and bad config, and just crashes. Is it good to just throw a UserError from IO when bad input is detected? (The pure parts will just signal failure using Either, Maybe or similar things and when the results reaches the IO part, UserError is thrown.) Is there a better way?
17:15:15	×	ezzieyguywuf quits (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:15:15	<maerwald>	'fail' throws a UserError in IO afair
17:15:30	×	mastarija quits (~mastarija@2a05:4f46:e0e:5000:81fe:1ebc:de4c:76ed) (Quit: Leaving)
17:15:40	<EvanR>	% fail "yahoo" :: IO a
17:15:40	<yahb>	EvanR: *** Exception: user error (yahoo)
17:15:48	×	opticblast quits (~june@secure-165.caltech.edu) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
17:16:07	<EvanR>	jchia[m], "let it crash" xD
17:16:07	<geekosaur>	but uses thrwIO so it won't get lost
17:16:37	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
17:16:44	→	lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
17:17:01	<maerwald>	dunno... I think there's no programming language that has figured out how to do error handling correctly
17:17:18	<maerwald>	Haskell is certainly not in the top 5
17:17:20	×	CiaoSen quits (~Jura@p200300c95737a2002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
17:18:27	→	kaph joins (~kaph@net-2-47-208-144.cust.vodafonedsl.it)
17:18:35	geekosaur	is not sure there is a "correctly" for all cases
17:19:04	<EvanR>	I appreciate how async spawns a thread which can return an answer or an error. And you can choose to have the answer and rethrow, or not. I don't know what the difference is between that and normal exception handling but it feels better
17:19:20	<jchia[m]>	What to do for assert? E.g. upon detecting an 'impossible' situation that can happen only because of a bug, what should be done if I want to crash? Exceptions can be caught but I don't want this the assert to make a catchable exception.
17:19:35	<monochrom>	I think a lot of languages have figured out, but people don't use the solutions.
17:19:37	<EvanR>	> assert (4 == 5) -- lights
17:19:39	<lambdabot>	error:
17:19:39	<lambdabot>	• No instance for (Typeable a0)
17:19:39	<lambdabot>	arising from a use of ‘show_M73303100616269230597’
17:20:01	<EvanR>	:t assert
17:20:03	<lambdabot>	Bool -> a -> a
17:20:25	→	ezzieyguywuf joins (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
17:20:42	<jchia[m]>	In C++, I just use assert(). In Haskell, I sometime throw a UserError but I'm not sure what to do in a pure function.
17:20:44	<EvanR>	> assert (4==5) "There are _ lights"
17:20:45	<lambdabot>	"*Exception: Assertion failed
17:20:45	<lambdabot>	CallStack (from HasCallStack):
17:20:45	<lambdabot>	assert, called at <interactive>:3:1 in interactive:Ghci1
17:21:22	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
17:21:27	<EvanR>	it can be inserted anywhere
17:21:35	<monochrom>	assert is in Control.Exception
17:21:37	<EvanR>	but then it crashes upon evaluation, when is who knows when
17:21:42	<EvanR>	which is*
17:22:03	<EvanR>	I guess a failed assertion at the end of time has no bearing on reality!
17:22:04	<jchia[m]>	"correct" for me means unconditionally crashes and prints an error message that I specify
17:22:25	<monochrom>	Yeah take lazy evaluation into account. "const 10 (assert (4==5))" no error.
17:22:28	<EvanR>	but flies in the face of usual advice to fail as early as possible
17:22:30	<jchia[m]>	s/unconditionally/uncatchably/
17:22:43	<EvanR>	it's a conflict with laziness
17:22:54	<monochrom>	Then again, even in C, "1 ? 10 : assert(4==5)" is no error either.
17:23:11	<EvanR>	similar to how in stream processing, you might fail 9 miles down the stream, which sucks for whatever effects already happened
17:23:33	<jackson99>	aren't asserts ignored in C and C++ unless you compile with debug flag?
17:23:39	<EvanR>	transactions to the rescue
17:23:50	<jchia[m]>	I'm not clear how/whether the assert works when the expression is not evaluated
17:23:59	<EvanR>	it doesn't work
17:24:00	<jchia[m]>	because of laziness
17:24:26	→	lbseale joins (~ep1ctetus@user/ep1ctetus)
17:24:53	<monochrom>	At some point I don't think lazy evaluation is as special as it sounds.
17:25:19	<monochrom>	In C, if your "assert(4==5)" is not evaluated, then there is no crash.
17:25:41	<monochrom>	The only difference from Haskell is that C evaluates more things than Haskell does.
17:25:53	<maerwald>	does the C standard define an evaluation strategy?
17:25:55	<monochrom>	But the rule "if unevaluated then no crash" is true of all languages.
17:26:05	<EvanR>	sequence points right
17:26:24	<monochrom>	Yes, enough for predicting assert crashes.
17:26:37	<jackson99>	monochrom, good point. if (True \|\| myfunction()) assert in myfunction won't crash the program
17:26:54	×	lbseale quits (~ep1ctetus@user/ep1ctetus) (Client Quit)
17:26:55	<monochrom>	Hell, it has to be enough for predicting debugging printfs in the first place.
17:27:14	<EvanR>	assert seems like a different kind of cultural tool from validation
17:27:45	<EvanR>	implicitly tossing a test somewhere, vs explicitly checking and explicitly failing at an explicit step
17:28:12	<monochrom>	Right, you expect production code to be -O2 and omits the asserts after compilation.
17:28:34	<monochrom>	It's strictly for internal testing phases.
17:28:46	<monochrom>	engineering sample
17:28:53	<maerwald>	production code is external testing phase
17:28:56	×	DNH quits (~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:b0c0:5871:210d:15db) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
17:29:00	<maerwald>	so keep the asserts...
17:30:01	<monochrom>	Well yeah you can do what you want. I'm describing what the inventors of assert did.
17:30:27	<EvanR>	your manager may complain about leaving the asserts in xD
17:30:32	<monochrom>	Therefore what it was probably optimized for.
17:30:37	<EvanR>	it causes the program to crash more
17:32:15	<EvanR>	"if the client doesn't know about the garbage out, it's not a bug after all?"
17:32:18	<maerwald>	reminds me of a property test that failed every other month and no one understood why... it freaked out the coders, but the managers suggested to remove it, becauce it wasted so much time ppl investigating and not finding the cause
17:33:01	<maerwald>	"close enough" is sometimes ok
17:33:10	<Rembane>	I like that
17:33:34	→	merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
17:34:02	<maerwald>	just mark the test as "flaky"... done
17:34:08	<monochrom>	Ugh, from the perfectionist who thinks no language has done error handling correctly?
17:35:16	<maerwald>	I don't think the manager was a perfectionist
17:35:18	<maerwald>	xD
17:35:29	→	aeka joins (~aeka@user/hiruji)
17:37:35	→	alMalsamo joins (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)
17:38:29	×	merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:39:08	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
17:43:14	→	vglfr joins (~vglfr@46.96.174.100)
17:43:36	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
17:45:35	×	ProfSimm quits (~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg) (Remote host closed the connection)
17:45:54	→	ProfSimm joins (~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg)
17:48:53	×	Jing quits (~hedgehog@240e:390:7c53:a7e1:87f:3f13:7a62:d6c7) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
17:50:13	×	ProfSimm quits (~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:50:42	×	Guest1824 quits (~Guest18@2a02:8388:6bc1:1d00:6d47:dee9:5eda:9fbe) (Quit: Client closed)
17:52:38	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
17:53:13	×	ouestbillie quits (~gallup@192-222-138-215.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:53:15	→	SnowNeo joins (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54)
17:53:16	<SnowNeo>	sup guys
17:53:21	<SnowNeo>	sup guys
17:53:32	<SnowNeo>	jackdk sir do you ever take a break
18:00:04	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
18:01:21	→	tzh joins (~tzh@c-24-21-73-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
18:03:39	×	SnowNeo quits (~SnowNeo@49.36.127.54) (Quit: Client closed)
18:04:45	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:05:21	→	coot joins (~coot@89-64-85-93.dynamic.chello.pl)
18:06:55	→	ProfSimm joins (~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg)
18:13:11	→	Akiva joins (~Akiva@user/Akiva)
18:19:17	→	merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
18:19:17	×	lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:20:18	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
18:22:36	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
18:23:07	→	fizbin joins (~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
18:24:05	→	zachjs joins (~zachjs@148-59-188-143.3rivers.net)
18:24:12	<dsal>	jackdk is a bot
18:24:39	dsal	isn't used to people with short-term connections
18:24:42	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
18:25:28	<EvanR>	that little timer showing how long you've been dialed in
18:25:51	<EvanR>	at ten cents a minute
18:26:02	×	jackson99 quits (~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
18:26:17	→	jackson99 joins (~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com)
18:26:23	<monochrom>	Haha nice, AOL and CompuServe
18:26:23	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:26:50	<monochrom>	"AOL keyword: Haskell"
18:28:29	<geekosaur>	delphi was my poison back then
18:28:58	<int-e>	AOL's coaster design never convinced me
18:28:58	×	Vajb quits (~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:29:10	→	Vajb joins (~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
18:29:20	<int-e>	(too smooth, too brittle, and wtf is that hole in the middle?)
18:29:33	<monochrom>	Oh haha that.
18:29:38	<EvanR>	I thought they were frisbees
18:29:56	×	kmein quits (~weechat@user/kmein) (Quit: ciao kakao)
18:30:14	<monochrom>	But have you heard of the complement joke: Someone was impressed that a multimedia PC came with a cup holder? >:)
18:30:15	→	kmein joins (~weechat@user/kmein)
18:30:32	<int-e>	I have
18:30:58	<int-e>	It was more dramatic as a support call: "My cup holder broke!"
18:31:17	<monochrom>	Ah yeah I forgot the tech support context.
18:31:51	×	cosimone` quits (~user@93-44-186-159.ip98.fastwebnet.it) (Remote host closed the connection)
18:32:36	→	cosimone joins (~user@93-44-186-159.ip98.fastwebnet.it)
18:33:48	→	zincy joins (~zincy@2a00:23c8:970c:4801:911c:c4ab:2f7e:d3f1)
18:37:08	→	opticblast joins (~june@secure-165.caltech.edu)
18:38:11	justIrresolute	is now known as justJustache
18:38:28	×	coot quits (~coot@89-64-85-93.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
18:39:26	×	Akiva quits (~Akiva@user/Akiva) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
18:39:46	×	eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
18:40:47	→	DNH joins (~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:b0c0:5871:210d:15db)
18:40:55	→	wre^ joins (~wre@wsip-98-188-242-61.mc.at.cox.net)
18:42:29	×	fizbin quits (~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
18:42:38	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
18:44:09	×	Vajb quits (~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:46:21	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:46:40	×	mbuf quits (~Shakthi@122.174.202.253) (Quit: Leaving)
18:48:16	→	Erutuon joins (~Erutuon@user/erutuon)
18:51:25	×	merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
18:54:46	×	vicfred quits (~vicfred@user/vicfred) (Quit: Leaving)
18:57:50	→	jgeerds joins (~jgeerds@55d4bbed.access.ecotel.net)
19:00:05	×	vysn quits (~vysn@user/vysn) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
19:01:06	→	Vajb joins (~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi)
19:01:46	→	whatsupdoc joins (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com)
19:02:11	×	zachjs quits (~zachjs@148-59-188-143.3rivers.net) (Quit: zachjs)
19:04:15	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
19:08:25	×	yauhsien quits (~yauhsien@61-231-29-214.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
19:09:06	→	yauhsien joins (~yauhsien@61-231-24-192.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
19:10:22	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:11:12	<Inst>	maerwald: win10
19:11:16	<Inst>	re cabal
19:14:16	→	Topsi joins (~Tobias@dyndsl-095-033-018-101.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
19:18:50	<maerwald>	Inst: can you reproduce that?
19:19:01	<Inst>	bleh, i probably nuked my system
19:19:05	<Inst>	ghcup nuke doesn't even work
19:19:14	<maerwald>	what?
19:19:27	<Inst>	time to delete everything related to ghcup on my system!
19:19:41	<maerwald>	ok
19:20:07	<tomsmeding>	TIL 'ghcup nuke'
19:20:16	<tomsmeding>	I guess it's a useful thing to have
19:20:43	<maerwald>	Inst: are you saying ghcup nuked your system or you did?
19:20:56	<Inst>	going to nuke it
19:21:00	<Inst>	i'm going to nuek it
19:21:10	<maerwald>	ok, I guess I won't get useful information here
19:21:14	<tomsmeding>	:)
19:21:18	<Inst>	sorry
19:21:57	<monochrom>	"Waiting 10 seconds before commencing, if you want to cancel it, now would be the time." saved me
19:21:58	<maerwald>	windows is a shit-show of file-locking... so "ghcup nuke" indeed doesn't work if there's a process still locking files
19:22:08	<tomsmeding>	RT monochrom
19:22:30	<maerwald>	all you can do is retry file deletion and hope that process died
19:22:44	<maerwald>	don't blame us :)
19:22:44	<tomsmeding>	perhaps it would be an idea to have that ask for a 'y' or something
19:22:54	<maerwald>	tomsmeding: no... ghcup is non-interactive
19:23:01	<tomsmeding>	right
19:23:06	<monochrom>	Nah I'm OK with the current way.
19:23:14	→	coot joins (~coot@89-64-85-93.dynamic.chello.pl)
19:23:15	<Inst>	you'll humor me if i say something stupid, right? just this once?
19:23:16	→	eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
19:23:18	<tomsmeding>	well, except 'ghcup tui', but then you're asking for it
19:23:26	<maerwald>	tomsmeding: correct
19:23:35	<maerwald>	there could be a nuke option
19:23:41	→	ouestbillie joins (~gallup@142.169.82.16)
19:24:08	<monochrom>	My story is that I disbelieved that "nuke" existed so I entered "ghcup nuke" expecting "invalid argument".
19:24:14	<maerwald>	lol
19:24:28	<Inst>	does it really matter?
19:24:37	<Inst>	i'm used to manually nuking and reinstalling GHCup every few weeks
19:24:42	<tomsmeding>	same as monochrom here lol
19:24:43	<maerwald>	I don't believe --no-preserve-root exists ;>
19:25:19	<maerwald>	Inst: why do you do that?
19:25:41	→	merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
19:25:56	→	ub joins (~Thunderbi@141.98.252.232)
19:26:01	<Inst>	to get cabal working / fixing random bugs
19:26:30	<geekosaur>	o.O
19:26:34	<tomsmeding>	the creator of ghcup happens to be here in this channel, so if you want to report bugs, this is your chance :p
19:26:41	<maerwald>	yeah... that's why I'm saying. We don't get many bug reports from windows users. It seems they just reinstall and try again
19:26:51	<Inst>	i hope Haskell Foundation gets enough money
19:27:02	<Inst>	they're absolutely right that tooling needs fixing
19:27:05	<maerwald>	:D
19:27:25	→	danso joins (~danso@danso.ca)
19:27:33	<maerwald>	well, they requested windows support in ghcup... I haven't seen a single dollar for it though :p
19:27:42	<Inst>	guessing, with 50% admin expenses, they can hire 200-350k worth of programming work
19:27:46	<maerwald>	(not that I asked)
19:27:46	→	aliosablack joins (~chomwitt@athedsl-15695.home.otenet.gr)
19:27:47	<Inst>	you're the creator of GHCup, aren't you?
19:27:57	<monochrom>	Here be a great irony comparing Linux people and Windows people.
19:28:07	←	danso parts (~danso@danso.ca) (WeeChat 3.3)
19:28:17	×	chomwitt quits (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc11:fb00:12c3:7bff:fe6d:d374) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
19:28:17	→	danso joins (~danso@danso.ca)
19:28:18	<maerwald>	Inst: https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/about/#team
19:28:40	<monochrom>	Linux people whine and cry bug reports upon the slightest pretext, so most bugs aren't reproducible.
19:28:41	<Inst>	Hello, Mr. Ospald.
19:28:44	←	danso parts (~danso@danso.ca) (WeeChat 3.3)
19:28:45	<Inst>	It's an honor to meet you.
19:28:48	→	danso joins (~danso@danso.ca)
19:28:49	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
19:28:54	←	danso parts (~danso@danso.ca) (WeeChat 3.3)
19:28:57	<maerwald>	allrighty
19:29:12	<monochrom>	Windows people can reproduce the bug 10 times, in fact they will go on to repeat and reproduce for 100 more times. Just that they will never talk about it.
19:29:51	<maerwald>	interestingly... windows devs/admins are extremely helpful
19:30:08	<maerwald>	I probably asked 200 questions in #powershell and always got an answer
19:30:13	<Inst>	windows users just reimage their system
19:30:29	<xerox>	also the first time they ever had a decent terminal
19:30:34	×	merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
19:30:39	<monochrom>	Yeah I just mean the users.
19:31:43	<maerwald>	Inst: anyway... if you have bug reports with useful information, go here https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/issues
19:31:51	<Inst>	thanks
19:32:04	<Inst>	have a root canal in 90 minutes!
19:32:33	geekosaur	sends novocaine
19:32:36	<Inst>	still less painful than cabal
19:32:44	<maerwald>	will there be a twitch stream?
19:33:05	<monochrom>	"viewer discretion is advised"
19:33:06	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:34:06	<Inst>	i'm pissed off, i get monads somewhat
19:34:21	<maerwald>	but yeah... I think WSL2 experience is better on windows (and ghcup/ghc/etc. work there)
19:34:32	<Inst>	like, there's 23928 bad tutorials on monads and 3-5 ones that actually work
19:34:53	<monochrom>	s/bad tutorials/blogs/
19:34:57	<sm>	Inst: lol
19:35:01	<sm>	sorry, good luck
19:35:09	<Inst>	but i'm more interested in the Haskell type system, or at least, the full possibilities of what data declarations can do
19:35:14	<geekosaur>	monad tutorials are a (bad) joke in the haskell community
19:35:14	<monochrom>	This is why you should just stay away from blogs.
19:35:24	<Inst>	this is why monad obsessions are bad
19:35:31	<Inst>	Haskell type system -> more interesting than monads
19:35:45	<Inst>	i'd kill if all the 23928 bad tutorials on monads were instead bad tutorials on the Haskell type system
19:35:47	×	ezzieyguywuf quits (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
19:35:54	<Inst>	you get the type system, monads come automatically
19:36:06	<monochrom>	Bloggers write blogs for self gratification. Very obvious anti-thesis to teaching and learning.
19:36:11	<geekosaur>	except we had the same type system backj before monads
19:36:18	<Inst>	FYI: I get the FAM typeclasses, maybe, [], IO monad, either to an extent, but not state
19:36:20	<maerwald>	Tutorials on type level programming are probably worse than monad tutorials. There's a good book on it though
19:36:26	×	ub quits (~Thunderbi@141.98.252.232) (Quit: ub)
19:36:27	<geekosaur>	back in the [Response] -> [Request] days
19:36:32	<monochrom>	Moreoever, most people write on the haskell wiki as if it's a blog, too.
19:36:35	<sm>	@remember Inst have a root canal in 90 minutes! still less painful than cabal
19:36:35	<lambdabot>	I will never forget.
19:36:45	<maerwald>	Inst: https://leanpub.com/thinking-with-types
19:36:49	<Inst>	saw that
19:37:13	<Inst>	the stupid thing i wanted to say is that i'm fantasizing about having a completely ass-backwards Haskell course
19:37:32	<Inst>	as in, in the previous version, IO was lesson 3, including reading and writing files
19:37:38	<Inst>	monads were introed in lesson 2
19:37:46	→	ezzieyguywuf joins (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
19:37:49	<monochrom>	You can find blogs on type systems from for example the Java and Scala communities.
19:38:30	<Inst>	maerwald: I just want to know what I can and can't do with a data declaration, exactly what a type and data constructor is (beyond the capital letters to the left and right respectively of the = in a data declaration)
19:38:48	→	econo joins (uid147250@user/econo)
19:38:49	<Inst>	then again, I'm probably screwed in lesson 1, wherein I don't have a clear and definite idea of what functional programming is
19:38:55	<EvanR>	make sure you don't make an ass-backwards infinite haskell course, or you can't even get started
19:39:03	<monochrom>	haha
19:39:11	×	ouestbillie quits (~gallup@142.169.82.16) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
19:39:34	<maerwald>	if you want to learn nothing, but know a lot about random things, check out http://dev.stephendiehl.com/hask/
19:39:49	<Inst>	that's sort of my learning style
19:40:34	<sm>	Inst: there are docs which cover that sort of thing, you may not have found the write one
19:40:48	<monochrom>	I should write a category theory "tutorial" (so, blog post) called "what I wish I knew when learning math".
19:40:54	<sm>	oops, that was not a subliminal suggestion. The right one.
19:40:54	<Inst>	4th attempt on Haskell Report 2010
19:40:57	<Inst>	will make 20-50
19:41:13	<sm>	have you tried graham hutton ? (book or youtube course)
19:41:23	<sm>	or the haskell wiki ?
19:41:29	<maerwald>	also, if you want a lot of random links without knowing which one to pick, there's https://www.haskell.org/documentation/
19:41:30	<yushyin>	haskell report and ghc user guide cover most things what 'data ...' can do
19:42:16	<ephemient>	{-# LANGUAGE EmptyDataDecls #-} and {-# LANGUAGE GADTs #-} aren't in the report, but are in the GHC docs
19:42:18	<Inst>	i have the hutton book
19:42:30	sm	meant haskell wikibook, not haskell wiki. Not the same thing
19:42:56	<maerwald>	haskell wiki is that thing from 2005, right? :)
19:43:16	<monochrom>	It's been so long, I forgot the year.
19:43:43	×	ezzieyguywuf quits (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
19:43:56	<Inst>	also, is there a relationship between the concepts immutable and ephemeral?
19:44:17	×	cstml quits (~cstml@user/cstml) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
19:46:26	<Inst>	that's probably too many dumb things to say for one day, i'm wondering how, at some point, I can learn / teach GUI with Haskell
19:46:46	<sm>	not one that we think about much, Inst.
19:47:35	<Inst>	immutability means that if you try to implement objects, you either can't actually change them (immutability) or they stop existing the moment they're no longer referenced (ephemerality)
19:48:31	×	jgeerds quits (~jgeerds@55d4bbed.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
19:48:56	<sm>	there's a recent reddit thread listing GUI libs, did you see it ? https://code.world/haskell or Gloss are the easiest ways to start with GUI
19:49:12	→	ezzieyguywuf joins (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
19:49:24	→	Hildegunst joins (~luc@80.248.12.109.rev.sfr.net)
19:50:16	<Inst>	i get directed to code.world repeatedly
19:50:42	→	ouestbillie joins (~gallup@142.169.82.16)
19:50:56	×	Hildegunst quits (~luc@80.248.12.109.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: leaving)
19:51:21	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
19:52:02	→	Hildegunst joins (~luc@80.248.12.109.rev.sfr.net)
19:52:08	<Inst>	is code.wordl FRP?
19:52:25	<EvanR>	I think immutability means you can't change them
19:52:50	×	Hildegunst quits (~luc@80.248.12.109.rev.sfr.net) (Client Quit)
19:53:14	<EvanR>	GUI with haskell seems to be reactive banana + wxwidgets, or three-penny-gui for a long time
19:53:45	<maerwald>	if you delete an object, is it really immutable?
19:54:15	<Inst>	you mean this?
19:54:16	<Inst>	https://wiki.haskell.org/WxHaskell
19:54:20	<EvanR>	yeah
19:54:26	<Inst>	supposedly no longer being supported
19:54:31	<EvanR>	unsurprised
19:55:24	<geekosaur>	got desupported when wxwidgets was changing too quickly for the haskell bindings to keep up. if it got picked up again now things might go better
19:55:26	→	Hildegunst joins (~luc@80.248.12.109.rev.sfr.net)
19:55:37	×	ezzieyguywuf quits (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
19:55:56	<maerwald>	no one's doing gui anymore... it's either web or tui
19:56:01	<maerwald>	and I think I'm ok with it
19:56:17	<EvanR>	or how ever you do a GUI in a video game
19:56:23	<EvanR>	other than text UI
19:56:35	<monochrom>	I still want gui instead of tui, but since I'm too lazy to do it, I am not complaining :)
19:56:36	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:57:12	<geekosaur>	pretty much all of my programming these days in any language is tui
19:57:16	<Inst>	text ui
19:57:18	<maerwald>	monochrom: well, I started a haskell filemanager in GTK+:3 long time ago, but never finished. Today I would write it in TUI
19:57:23	<geekosaur>	just how ancient geeks roll
19:57:40	<Inst>	i had a problem wherein a simple Haskell line reader / writer wouldn't accept chars
19:57:42	<maerwald>	TUI with mouse support
19:57:45	<Inst>	the reason I'm reinstalling cabal is because
19:57:54	<geekosaur>	doable
19:57:58	<monochrom>	And tui is still better than command line flags
19:58:05	<Inst>	apparently by default, at least on windows, you can't get a detect key
19:58:14	<Inst>	hmmm, damnit, ghcup is reinstalling
19:58:37	<maerwald>	why?
19:58:52	×	michalz quits (~michalz@185.246.204.104) (Remote host closed the connection)
19:59:22	<monochrom>	Hrm, FRP for TUI, now that's an idea...
20:00:09	<Inst>	detect keypress
20:00:14	<geekosaur>	thought someone had played with that
20:00:32	<Inst>	not in SystemIO, getChar with powershell GHCI wants a line, but only processes the first item
20:00:46	<Inst>	alternative: readLine, Haskeline, depending on comfort with monad transformers
20:01:07	→	merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
20:01:20	→	ezzieyguywuf joins (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
20:01:22	<maerwald>	monochrom: already exists
20:01:22	<Inst>	readKey (iirc) returns IO Char
20:01:41	<Cale>	maerwald: I am sort of sad though that all the web view widgets decided to drop their API that lets you manipulate the DOM from outside without javascript
20:01:47	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflex-vty
20:02:08	<monochrom>	Ah nice
20:02:27	<Cale>	maerwald: For a little while, we could use the DOM as a glorified drawing library and control the contents 100% with native Haskell, now it needs some kinda janky JS websocket hackery.
20:02:43	<monochrom>	Oh Obidian again.
20:02:45	<Cale>	Oh, if you're trying out reflex-vty, let me know how you get on with it
20:03:10	×	ProfSimm quits (~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg) (Remote host closed the connection)
20:03:11	×	mud quits (~mud@user/kadoban) (Quit: quit)
20:03:30	→	ProfSimm joins (~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg)
20:03:57	<Cale>	(Ali Abrar and I made it over the course of a few weekends spread out over a couple of years)
20:03:59	×	ezzieyguywuf quits (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (Remote host closed the connection)
20:05:05	×	juhp quits (~juhp@128.106.188.82) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:06:01	<tomsmeding>	Inst: trying to get a single key will probably fail in interesting ways in ghci, but that's probably due to the interaction with ghci more than anything else. Did you try to compile and run the executable?
20:06:07	<tomsmeding>	(or use 'runhaskell'
20:06:08	<tomsmeding>	)
20:06:48	<geekosaur>	runhaskell behaves like ghci
20:06:58	<tomsmeding>	but not the repl part ;)
20:07:10	<tomsmeding>	which is what I think interacts with this
20:07:18	→	juhp joins (~juhp@128.106.188.82)
20:07:55	×	ProfSimm quits (~ProfSimm@176-12-60-137.pon.spectrumnet.bg) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:08:11	→	dhil joins (~dhil@cpc103052-sgyl39-2-0-cust260.18-2.cable.virginm.net)
20:10:18	×	fef quits (~thedawn@user/thedawn) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
20:11:51	<geekosaur>	and as for getting a single key vs. ghci, I think that actually works better in ghci because it's running in character at a time mode, on unix at least. compiled programs have to do an extra step to get character at a time
20:12:03	<geekosaur>	might have to do that same extra step on windows too
20:12:20	<geekosaur>	hSetBuffering stdout NoBuffering
20:12:26	<geekosaur>	(import System.IO for this)
20:13:21	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2022/01/14?id=375142#trid375142
20:13:25	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
20:14:08	→	ezzieyguywuf joins (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf)
20:14:16	<tomsmeding>	presumably that didn't work for them, perhaps because they're working in ghci -- I have no clue what ghci does on windows, but given the dragons that come out sometimes with stack ghci vs stack exec ghci vs ghci vs ghc --interactive, I'm not hopeful
20:14:30	<tomsmeding>	vs ghci.sh
20:16:24	tomsmeding	was thinking about this https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/4737
20:16:40	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:20:24	→	lispy joins (~lispy4@84.69.59.93)
20:21:50	×	lispy quits (~lispy4@84.69.59.93) (Client Quit)
20:22:26	→	lispy joins (~lispy4@84.69.59.93)
20:24:30	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
20:24:50	→	spaceseller joins (~spacesell@31.147.205.13)
20:26:13	×	IndecisionTree quits (mike@user/IndecisionTree) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:30:49	→	mud joins (~mud@user/kadoban)
20:32:58	×	cheater quits (~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
20:34:46	×	mud quits (~mud@user/kadoban) (Remote host closed the connection)
20:34:49	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
20:35:17	×	merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:36:54	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:36:59	×	wre^ quits (~wre@wsip-98-188-242-61.mc.at.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:38:33	→	wre^ joins (~wre@wsip-98-188-242-61.mc.at.cox.net)
20:39:33	×	chexum quits (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
20:40:32	→	chexum joins (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
20:41:24	×	spaceseller quits (~spacesell@31.147.205.13) (Quit: Leaving)
20:41:28	×	eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
20:41:33	<polyphem>	latest addition to haskell guis : https://github.com/fjvallarino/monomer
20:41:48	→	cheater joins (~Username@user/cheater)
20:46:55	<jackdk>	polyphem: cool, I like that it has an explicit statement of objectives/non-objectives as well as design decisions. We could do with more active development in the GUI space (I'm a backend guy, mostly)
20:47:45	×	Hildegunst quits (~luc@80.248.12.109.rev.sfr.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:47:50	<polyphem>	jackdk: have never tried it though, but it looks reasonable and nice
20:48:41	→	ProfSimm joins (~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109)
20:49:27	→	Hildegunst joins (~luc@80.248.12.109.rev.sfr.net)
20:50:02	→	eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
20:54:09	→	Codaraxis__ joins (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis)
20:55:17	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
20:58:06	×	Codaraxis_ quits (~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
20:58:29	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
20:58:29	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
20:58:29	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
20:59:04	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:59:44	<EvanR>	monomer, nice
21:01:34	×	burnsidesLlama quits (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
21:02:06	→	burnsidesLlama joins (~burnsides@client-8-70.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk)
21:02:22	→	root____ joins (~root@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl)
21:02:24	root____	is now known as briandaed
21:03:14	×	ProfSimm quits (~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109) (Remote host closed the connection)
21:03:37	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
21:04:11	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
21:05:07	×	Hildegunst quits (~luc@80.248.12.109.rev.sfr.net) (Quit: leaving)
21:06:20	×	burnsidesLlama quits (~burnsides@client-8-70.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
21:06:25	×	_ht quits (~quassel@2a02:a468:b619:1:b63a:bf2b:8ee:fbf2) (Remote host closed the connection)
21:07:13	→	bitmapper joins (uid464869@id-464869.lymington.irccloud.com)
21:08:54	×	eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
21:09:39	→	eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
21:11:42	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
21:11:42	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
21:11:42	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
21:15:19	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
21:15:31	→	spaceseller joins (~spacesell@31.147.205.13)
21:16:29	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
21:18:19	×	spaceseller quits (~spacesell@31.147.205.13) (Client Quit)
21:18:42	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
21:22:22	×	euandreh quits (~euandreh@2804:14c:33:9fe5:6113:2671:c33c:ef4a) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
21:22:57	→	kn07_ joins (~kn07_@86.121.166.134)
21:25:29	→	ProfSimm joins (~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109)
21:25:58	<oak->	Isn't Qt quite well supported in Haskell? Or at least it was couple of years ago
21:28:05	→	Constraintegic joins (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de)
21:28:11	<oak->	GTK and cross-platform development was pain, I never got Gtk compiled on macOs
21:28:53	<oak->	qtah on the contrary was quite easy to set up
21:32:20	<EvanR>	cocoa is cool
21:32:52	<EvanR>	but I guess rats ass chance that will work on e.g. windows
21:36:42	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
21:37:37	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
21:37:37	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
21:37:37	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
21:39:40	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
21:40:45	→	burnsidesLlama joins (~burnsides@dhcp168-039.wadham.ox.ac.uk)
21:40:49	<ephemient>	cocotron supposedly works on windows
21:45:02	×	ubert quits (~Thunderbi@p200300ecdf0994cfb11256a527c2b165.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
21:46:38	×	lispy quits (~lispy4@84.69.59.93) (Quit: Leaving)
21:48:48	→	kupi joins (uid212005@id-212005.hampstead.irccloud.com)
21:51:20	→	jgeerds joins (~jgeerds@55d4bbed.access.ecotel.net)
21:53:34	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
21:57:01	×	`2jt quits (~jtomas@10.red-83-58-228.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
21:57:24	→	`2jt joins (~jtomas@10.red-83-58-228.dynamicip.rima-tde.net)
21:58:06	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
21:58:20	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
21:59:38	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
21:59:38	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
21:59:38	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
22:02:48	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
22:04:24	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
22:04:33	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:09:28	→	Pickchea joins (~private@user/pickchea)
22:10:00	→	euandreh joins (~euandreh@2804:14c:33:9fe5:877b:86ff:8e37:7e9b)
22:10:58	←	bsima parts (~bsima@2604:a880:400:d0::19f1:7001) (WeeChat 3.3)
22:12:00	→	gustik joins (~gustik@2a01:c844:2436:6920:9e9:f97c:41d1:634c)
22:12:12	×	briandaed quits (~root@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
22:13:23	×	gustik quits (~gustik@2a01:c844:2436:6920:9e9:f97c:41d1:634c) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:13:39	→	zebrag joins (~chris@user/zebrag)
22:16:28	→	lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
22:21:15	×	lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
22:22:31	×	takuan quits (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:22:40	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
22:25:28	<EvanR>	what is the difference between a DSL, and Embedded DSL, and a "Deeply Embedded" DSL
22:25:46	<EvanR>	and how deep does this rabbit hole go
22:25:57	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:26:00	×	FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
22:26:00	→	finn_elija joins (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
22:26:00	finn_elija	is now known as FinnElija
22:26:17	<Cale>	DSL means domain-specific language. You can imagine having a domain specific language which has its own concrete syntax that gets parsed and either compiled or interpreted separately
22:26:17	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:26:23	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
22:26:41	<monochrom>	"embedded" sticks to the host language. Without "embedded", it can mean your own syntax, your own parser.
22:26:49	<geekosaur>	I think that's not quite the question. more "why are there three different kinds?
22:27:04	<Cale>	An embedded domain specific language is essentially a library for a more general purpose programming language, where you use the host language's syntax, and usually many of its means of abstraction.
22:27:40	<monochrom>	And then "shallow embedding" vs "deep embedding" is about how much features of the host language you reuse (as opposed to reinvent). I forgot which end is deep.
22:27:57	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:28:15	<monochrom>	For example suppose your DSL is untyped lambda calculus again! :D
22:28:20	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
22:28:20	<Cale>	Yeah, shallow embeddings are closer to the sort where you're parsing concrete syntax, instead, you just have an abstract syntax tree as a data structure in your host language and use that
22:28:41	<Cale>	While deep embeddings are harder to distinguish from straightforward libraries in the host language.
22:29:11	×	opticblast quits (~june@secure-165.caltech.edu) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
22:29:20	<monochrom>	You may choose "data L = ... \| Function{argument::String, body::L}" or "data L = ... \| Function (L -> L)". That would be one way "shallow" and "deep" differ.
22:29:36	<Cale>	At least, if I'm remembering which way around that goes :D
22:30:28	<Cale>	Oh, it seems like some people use shallow embedding to mean something rather different from what I suggested
22:30:42	<Cale>	https://wiki.haskell.org/Embedded_domain_specific_language
22:31:37	×	neverwas quits (jpneverwas@swissbox.unperson.link) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
22:31:45	<Cale>	That seems to indicate that shallow embeddings are ones where Haskell (or host language) expressions construct concrete syntax of the domain specific language, and then that gets interpreted.
22:32:20	<Cale>	While deep embeddings only build the abstract syntax tree. So that's a different split point than I was thinking of :)
22:32:33	<Cale>	Maybe depth of embedding is relative :D
22:32:45	×	notzmv quits (~zmv@user/notzmv) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
22:32:48	<Cale>	As their deep embedding was my shallow one
22:32:52	<EvanR>	I'm going to partition monochrom Cale msgs and read them as separate streams now
22:32:57	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:33:18	<EvanR>	oh wouldn't that be a cool irc client feature
22:33:24	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
22:33:26	<Cale>	(and their shallow embedding was even shallower than I was thinking)
22:33:43	×	random__ quits (~random@185.219.68.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:34:06	→	random__ joins (~random@185.219.68.251)
22:34:17	<Cale>	Yeah, for a long time I've wished I could e.g. ctrl-click on a bunch of people's nicks in the message log and then have the view restricted to those people.
22:34:56	<EvanR>	alright so...
22:35:08	<monochrom>	Well, "bus factor" suffers from the same problem. Half of the people define a formula that says a higher number means more single-person failures, and the other half does the opposite.
22:35:23	<EvanR>	a DSL could be implemented as data structure interpreter, or...
22:35:33	<EvanR>	I think that's 1 kind
22:35:44	<monochrom>	And now, which direction is reify, which direction is reflect? >:)
22:36:19	<EvanR>	so what does deep mean again
22:36:32	<EvanR>	it sounds good
22:37:45	<EvanR>	I'd say haskell is making it hard to figure this out, but I've only heard of these terms in haskell
22:37:51	geekosaur	wonders where xmonad lies on this axis, since it's clearly a DSL but is not related to an interpreter really
22:37:56	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:38:21	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
22:39:36	<monochrom>	I learned deep vs shallow from using a theorem prover to prove Gödel incompleteness so you begin by embedding your own FOL in the host FOL...
22:40:00	<EvanR>	in that case, what's the diff between deep and shallow
22:40:16	<Cale>	EvanR: Well, let's be a little more general, I think the idea of "deep" vs. "shallow" is that one embedding is "deeper" than another if it feels more like a native use of the host language, rather than an entirely separate construction.
22:40:36	<monochrom>	Like I said, how much of the host language features you just reuse. And I forgot whether "deep" means more or it means less.
22:40:46	×	__monty__ quits (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
22:40:56	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:40:56	<monochrom>	For example do you use the host languages "and" or do you roll your own.
22:41:23	<EvanR>	this is funny, now I get what you mean
22:41:23	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
22:41:40	<EvanR>	but am more confused about the direction of deep and shallow
22:41:42	×	xb0o2 quits (~xb0o2@user/xb0o2) (Quit: Client closed)
22:41:58	<Cale>	Another important one: do you use the host language's functions, or do you manage variable bindings and function evaluation yourself
22:42:17	<EvanR>	if you implement variables and functions yourself... is that deep or shallow
22:42:30	<Cale>	After looking at some things, I'm pretty sure "deeper" means "closer to just using the host language"
22:42:42	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
22:42:47	<EvanR>	so deeply embedded is easier
22:42:50	<monochrom>	Yeah I vaguely remember the direction is like that.
22:43:03	<EvanR>	that's counterintuitive
22:43:06	<Cale>	i.e. a shallow embedding is one which is closer to being not embedded
22:43:13	<sm>	there's this: https://wiki.haskell.org/Embedded_domain_specific_language#Degree_of_embedding
22:43:29	<Cale>	Yeah, that's the thing I linked before :)
22:43:41	<sm>	oops, carry on :)
22:44:03	<Cale>	Their notion of shallow embedding is really quite shallow indeed, but you're likely to see it when it comes to SQL
22:44:11	<monochrom>	Well, "you use Haskell in a shallow way" can mean "you don't use many Haskell features" -> "you don't let Haskell do the heavy lifting" -> "you code up your own heavy lifting".
22:44:27	<Cale>	since the end goal there is usually not to run SQL statements in Haskell, but to send them over to a database server to be executed
22:45:10	<monochrom>	Also, "embed deep" can mean "the semantics of your EDSL is tightly tied to the semantics of Haskell because you just let Haskell do it"
22:45:10	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:46:15	<monochrom>	Shallow Query Language </roast>
22:46:18	×	eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
22:47:11	→	eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
22:47:26	<EvanR>	if i'm not mistaken you usually don't see stuff advertising itself as shallow
22:47:32	<EvanR>	making it seem worse
22:48:11	<monochrom>	Fortunately I read academic works for these things, where people don't have that marketing burden.
22:49:12	<jackdk>	@src for_
22:49:12	<lambdabot>	Source not found. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
22:49:19	<monochrom>	Well, academia has a different marketing burden, but it is more interesting and justified than just avoiding some words.
22:50:13	<ephemient>	@src forM_
22:50:13	<lambdabot>	forM_ = flip mapM_
22:50:52	<EvanR>	:t for_
22:50:53	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Applicative f) => t a -> (a -> f b) -> f ()
22:51:01	<monochrom>	yeah, for_ is an alias of forM_, and traces back to mapM_. Don't worry, mapM_ has been improved to use just Applicative.
22:51:28	<EvanR>	wow that is cool I thought for_ needed Traversable
22:51:51	<sm>	perhaps some concrete examples are in order. Cabal file: DSL; Hamlet template: DSL with EDSL elements ? blaze-html or lucid or Shake or Hakyll script: deep EDSL ?
22:52:17	<Cale>	Attoparsec: even deeper EDSL?
22:53:48	×	ouestbillie quits (~gallup@142.169.82.16) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
22:58:33	×	gehmehgeh quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
22:59:03	<sm>	I guess when it just looks like function calls we call it code, and what makes it an EDSL is when it aims to give a visual/cognitive impression of being a different language from the host language
23:01:07	×	geranim0 quits (~geranim0@modemcable242.171-178-173.mc.videotron.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:01:49	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
23:01:51	<jackdk>	> :t flip $ \f -> foldr ((*>) . f) (pure ()) -- EvanR
23:01:52	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’
23:02:02	<jackdk>	% :t flip $ \f -> foldr ((*>) . f) (pure ()) -- EvanR
23:02:02	<yahb>	jackdk: ; <interactive>:1:26: error:; Ambiguous occurrence `.'; It could refer to; either `Control.Category..', imported from `Control.Category'; or `Prelude..', imported from `Prelude' (and originally defined in `GHC.Base')
23:02:13	<jackdk>	ahh you know what I mena
23:02:16	<jackdk>	mean*
23:02:42	<geekosaur>	% :m - Control.Category
23:02:42	<yahb>	geekosaur:
23:02:43	sm	plays with smalltalk
23:02:47	→	xb0o2 joins (~xb0o2@user/xb0o2)
23:04:01	<EvanR>	who left prelude and category imported in conflict xD
23:04:04	<sm>	flipping between smalltalk and haskell windows is quite mind-stretching
23:04:20	<EvanR>	just think of smalltalk as a DSL
23:04:34	<EvanR>	smalltalk monad
23:07:14	<monochrom>	I like Smalltalk blocks. It shows that lambda, not objects, is how you achieve compositionality, component reuse, all that good stuff.
23:08:00	<EvanR>	once you write a single class, you can reuse that single class as many times as you like
23:08:07	<EvanR>	code reuse
23:08:11	×	mc47 quits (~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:08:16	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124)
23:09:06	×	Pickchea quits (~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving)
23:10:42	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:12:39	×	deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.231.124) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
23:12:59	sm	stumbled into https://gtoolkit.com , a clean modern layer on top of pharo, which is a fork of squeak, which is the OSS descendant of smaltalk-80
23:13:26	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:13:50	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
23:13:51	<sm>	I always wanted to see smalltalk (good OO) and haskell (good FP) combined.
23:13:54	×	zebrag quits (~chris@user/zebrag) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
23:14:23	<sm>	just now I'm wondering what image-based Haskell dev could look like
23:14:25	→	merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
23:14:49	<Inst>	do you know how to override cabal version checks?
23:15:09	<geekosaur>	--allow-{newer,older}[=package,...]
23:15:11	<Inst>	Warning: readline.cabal:27:32: version operators used. To use version
23:15:11	<Inst>	operators the package needs to specify at least 'cabal-version: >= 1.8'.
23:15:11	<Inst>	Warning: readline.cabal:9:3: Tabs used as indentation at 9:3, 10:3, 12:3,
23:15:11	<Inst>	13:3, 15:3, 16:3
23:15:11	<Inst>	Configuring readline-1.0.3.0...
23:15:12	<Inst>	cabal-3.6.2.0.exe: The package has a './configure' script. If you are on
23:15:13	<Inst>	Windows, This requires a Unix compatibility toolchain such as MinGW+MSYS or
23:15:16	<Inst>	Cygwin. If you are not on Windows, ensure that an 'sh' command is discoverable
23:15:18	<Inst>	in your path.
23:15:20	<Inst>	cabal-3.6.2.0.exe: Failed to build readline-1.0.3.0. See the build log above
23:15:22	<Inst>	for details.
23:15:24	<Inst>	whoops, sorry
23:15:26	<Inst>	didn't know it'd be that long
23:15:42	<geekosaur>	anyway that does not show any errors, just warnings
23:16:05	<geekosaur>	if you don't have mingw, it won't build, it tells you this
23:16:25	<geekosaur>	you can't "override" that
23:16:41	→	jgeerds_ joins (~jgeerds@55d4af63.access.ecotel.net)
23:17:18	<Inst>	i should have mingw
23:17:22	<Inst>	should that be added to path?
23:18:16	<geekosaur>	actually you should run the install from a mingw sh window
23:19:33	×	jgeerds quits (~jgeerds@55d4bbed.access.ecotel.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
23:21:09	×	zincy quits (~zincy@2a00:23c8:970c:4801:911c:c4ab:2f7e:d3f1) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:22:09	<Nate[m]1>	can I ask agda related question here?
23:25:09	<Nate[m]1>	can someone tell me how to call agda standard library?
23:26:04	×	cosimone quits (~user@93-44-186-159.ip98.fastwebnet.it) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:26:51	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
23:29:39	×	alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.93.160) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:29:56	<EvanR>	hrm to make monad an instance of mtl classes like MonadReader and MonadRWS the type variables need to line up exactly...
23:30:14	<EvanR>	which might be a different order from other convenience
23:31:04	<EvanR>	or I'm trippin
23:31:17	×	jkaye quits (~jkaye@2601:281:8300:7530:91a1:7dca:589a:aaae) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
23:32:13	<Inst>	https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/528863657363505159/931692175132090398/unknown.png
23:32:28	<Inst>	added mingw to path
23:33:04	<geekosaur>	you will need to use pacman to install the mingw readline package
23:33:05	<Inst>	bash in mingw64 doesn't recognize cabal
23:33:14	×	aliosablack quits (~chomwitt@athedsl-15695.home.otenet.gr) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
23:33:25	<Inst>	just ran pacman, mingw stopped responding
23:33:50	<Inst>	okay, should be able to take care of myself, ex-Arch user
23:35:19	<Inst>	is mingw literally using arch pacman?
23:36:17	<geekosaur>	a port of it
23:36:25	<geekosaur>	with its own packages though, not from arch
23:37:51	×	xb0o2 quits (~xb0o2@user/xb0o2) (Quit: Client closed)
23:38:29	<ephemient>	like almost all other development tools, Haskell is much less painful on Linux or WSL than on Windows natively </opinion>
23:39:03	×	jackson99 quits (~bc8147f2@cerf.good1.com) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout))
23:39:03	→	xb0o2 joins (~xb0o2@user/xb0o2)
23:40:50	<Inst>	also, that feel when you realize you have to learn monad transformers to get readkey support on Haskell
23:40:55	→	slack1256 joins (~slack1256@191.126.99.209)
23:42:38	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
23:42:38	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
23:42:38	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
23:43:09	×	slac97765 quits (~slack1256@191.126.99.72) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:43:09	<EvanR>	you think you need transformers to use Maybe and IO again
23:43:15	×	merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-018.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
23:43:26	<Inst>	Haskeline uses InputT datatype
23:43:45	<EvanR>	groovy
23:44:12	<ephemient>	did none of the other terminal manipulation suggestions from earlier work?
23:44:44	<Inst>	tbh i have no idea how to pacman readline
23:45:24	<Inst>	i'll try compile and seeing if it works, but GHCi and GHC generated executables having different behavior -> baaaaad
23:45:45	→	neverwas joins (jpneverwas@swissbox.unperson.link)
23:46:45	<hpc>	differences between interpreted and compiled code are very very rare, and iirc all have to do with ffi
23:46:58	×	bitmapper quits (uid464869@id-464869.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
23:47:13	<Inst>	okay, somehow runhaskell died?
23:47:30	×	shriekingnoise quits (~shrieking@156-16-231-201.fibertel.com.ar) (Quit: Quit)
23:47:33	→	alx741 joins (~alx741@157.100.93.160)
23:47:36	×	max22- quits (~maxime@2a01cb0883359800ad92d79b8ec75caf.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:48:31	<Inst>	also did hutton during a dental cleaning
23:48:50	<Inst>	contrary to the insistence of the hygienist, it is in fact possible to read a haskell textbook during routine dental care
23:49:21	→	shriekingnoise joins (~shrieking@201.231.16.156)
23:49:24	<Inst>	so getting into state monad, although it's still hard, not completely getting the syntax (or the notion that functions can be typeconstructed or type-synonymed types)
23:49:37	<Inst>	::smug::
23:50:10	×	bastelfreak quits (~bastelfre@basteles-bastelknecht.bastelfreak.org) (Quit: WeeChat 3.3)
23:50:37	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
23:51:26	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:51:57	<EvanR>	hmm funny MonadRWS class has no
23:52:00	<EvanR>	methods
23:52:44	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
23:52:44	×	Constraintegic quits (~DundiDund@ppp-212-114-229-73.dynamic.mnet-online.de) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
23:53:56	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:54:02	×	red-snail quits (~snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
23:54:23	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
23:54:25	×	DNH quits (~DNH@2a02:8108:1100:16d8:b0c0:5871:210d:15db) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
23:54:51	→	red-snail joins (~snail@static.151.210.203.116.clients.your-server.de)
23:55:26	×	wmacmil quits (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:55:39	×	dhouthoo quits (~dhouthoo@178-117-36-167.access.telenet.be) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
23:55:42	<Athas>	Is it right that stackage nightly still isn't on aeson 2?
23:55:50	→	wmacmil joins (~wmacmil@83-233-165-97.cust.bredband2.com)
23:58:35	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com)
23:58:35	×	wroathe quits (~wroathe@206-55-188-8.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
23:58:35	→	wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
23:58:37	×	coot quits (~coot@89-64-85-93.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot)
23:58:40	<geekosaur>	EvanR, it doesn't need them, the "superclasses" provide them
23:59:17	×	`2jt quits (~jtomas@10.red-83-58-228.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
23:59:51	×	Erutuon quits (~Erutuon@user/erutuon) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)

All times are in UTC on 2022-01-14.