Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-01-30 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:58:43 <Inst> leaving
00:58:52 <Inst> I love you guys, but tbh i have to stop annoying you guys and actually learn Haskell instead
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01:07:24 <yushyin> a bit weird
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03:32:28 <EvanR> standalone deriving Read for a proper GADTs seems to be problematic
03:34:52 <EvanR> I guess something is lost when using a standalone deriving Show on the same GADT
03:38:48 × Null_A quits (~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:8935:4edf:b32:6553) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:40:39 <ski> existentials ?
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03:43:35 <EvanR> it complained about this construction I think
03:43:40 <ski> readsPrec1 :: Int -> String -> [(exists a. C a *> f a,String)] -- something like this might be useful
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03:43:44 <EvanR> Colorize :: Color -> Sh Bool -> Sh (Maybe Color)
03:44:13 <ski> what was the complaint ?
03:44:20 <EvanR> Color doesn't match Maybe Color
03:45:01 <ski> not the irregularity or the indexing, then ?
03:45:44 <ski> (not sure i see why one'd expect `Color' to match `Maybe Color' there. perhaps there's some other data constructor with result type `Sh Color' ?)
03:46:05 <EvanR> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/YyJ9zqFV
03:46:24 <EvanR> yeah there is
03:46:53 <EvanR> so it's really complaining that not all the results have the same index
03:47:37 × td_ quits (~td@muedsl-82-207-238-224.citykom.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:47:48 <ski> try `-ddump-deriv' to see the code ?
03:48:27 <ski> i'm guessing it's generating the code as plain recursion, rather than polymorphic recursion or GADT recursion
03:48:40 Andrew looks for a haskell macro system that;s as good as that of the Lisps
03:48:51 <Andrew> Doesn't seem possible because no S-expressions
03:48:55 <ski> (but there also might be an issue related to the polarity of the index, as i hinted at first)
03:49:17 <ski> well .. i guess there's TH
03:49:35 → td_ joins (~td@muedsl-82-207-238-178.citykom.de)
03:50:41 <EvanR> TH generates haskell code, macros generate lisp code, the concrete syntax doesn't really matter
03:50:48 <EvanR> (Template Haskell)
03:51:12 <ski> (also, one can use quasi-quotation with TH)
03:53:05 <EvanR> well I managed to dump its Read instance and surprisingly, it looks like a Read instance
03:53:11 <EvanR> it just doesn't type check
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03:53:39 <EvanR> I thought it was a long shot to begin with, I'll just write a parser
03:53:44 <Andrew> I hate it when I see code like in the first expression of https://termbin.com/ebe7 though, haskell forces better readability
03:54:38 <EvanR> code that ends in N ) is a classic though
03:54:42 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@24.105.81.50) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
03:55:00 <EvanR> you're not supposed to be able to read it anyway, your editor knows if it's right
03:55:02 <ski> ick ! .. the lonely parens, won't someone think of them !!
03:56:09 ski . o O ( "Riastradh's Lisp Style Rules" <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt> )
03:56:46 <ski> "Absolutely do *not* place closing brackets on their own lines.","Rationale: The parentheses grow lonely if their closing brackets are all kept separated and segregated."
03:57:18 <EvanR> Do not heed this section unless you know what you are doing.
03:57:40 <ski> (followed by "Exceptions to the Above Rule Concerning Line Separation","Do not heed this section unless you know what you are doing. Its title does *not* make the unacceptable example above acceptable.",..)
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04:01:44 <ski> it's sometimes said that Lisp programmers, with some experience, don't really see the brackets that much (certainly don't keep manually counting them that often). since there's a standard indentation, people to a large extent read the structure off that
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04:01:51 <EvanR> Andrew has inspired me to print out and read back this structure as an S expr
04:02:09 ski stares blankly at the above
04:02:34 <EvanR> a mix of matrix users and others got K-lined
04:02:55 ski nods
04:03:36 <EvanR> it's like a hundred silent voices suddenly... remained silent
04:04:09 <ski> (tbh, there has been a few attempts to actually get rid of the brackets (mostly, at least), and simply use indentation for the tree structure .. however, there are some quirks, like `((...) ...)' and `(... . ...)' that are harder to fit into such a style)
04:04:49 <ski> (but, if anyone's curious, i could point to two or three SRFIs (Scheme Requests For Implementation) that's about such surface syntices)
04:04:49 <EvanR> reintroduce brackets when you want to "put indentation on one line" ?
04:04:58 <ski> yea, they tend to allow that
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04:07:28 <ephemient> https://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/ looks pretty cool but like all alternate lisp syntaxes it seems dead
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04:09:53 <EvanR> would lisp really be lisp anymore
04:10:17 <EvanR> like taking jos wheadon out of The Avengers
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04:12:54 <EvanR> wait now I need to scroll back to the existentials comment
04:14:10 <EvanR> a parser for a proper GADT would necessarily return an existential right
04:14:38 <EvanR> oh, it can do like juicy pixels and return a sum type
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04:26:13 <ski> well, here's three (more) : "Indentation-sensitive syntax" <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-49/>,"wisp: simpler indentation-sensitive scheme" <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-119/>,"Sweet-expressions (t-expressions)" <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/>
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04:27:32 <ski> @where liskell
04:27:32 <lambdabot> a SExp syntax for Haskell, by therp : <http://clemens.endorphin.org/liskell> (broken),<https://web.archive.org/web/20081105133119/http://clemens.endorphin.org/liskell>,<http://clemens.endorphin.org/
04:27:32 <lambdabot> ILC07-Liskell-draft.pdf>,<https://web.archive.org/web/20120609122549/http://www.liskell.org/>
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04:27:57 <ski> EvanR : "a parser for a proper GADT would necessarily return an existential right" -- no .. it depends on what you want out of the parser
04:28:32 <EvanR> the "original" GADT that was stringified
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04:28:40 <ski> if you're satisfied with treating the index as input (iow you know beforehand whether you're looking for `Sh Color' or `Sh (Maybe Color)'), then you don't need to muck about existentials
04:28:52 <EvanR> right
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04:29:02 <ski> but if you want it as output (you discover the type as you parse), then you do need existentials
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04:29:31 <ski> (granted, usually people will probably want the latter, not just the former)
04:29:53 <EvanR> the former could work but I'm not sure how much simpler it would be
04:30:09 <ski> but then a question is which constraints do you expect to get, on the existential ?
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04:30:21 <EvanR> I don't use any constraints
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04:31:03 <ski> it'll probably depend on the GADT .. and possibly, in some cases, also on the particular usage of parsing it (so that we don't necessarily have an FD from the GADT to the constraint)
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04:31:48 <ski> yea, often it'll not be necessary (since you could often simply recover it, by traversing the GADT, to a greater or lesser degree)
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04:32:13 <ski> whee
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04:32:28 <EvanR> a functional dependency from the GADT to the constraint?
04:32:39 <ski> rather, a lack thereof
04:32:39 <ephemient> doesn't Generic give you a way to traverse a GADT?
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04:34:12 <EvanR> here is my GADT if you're curious, pretty simple right now https://paste.tomsmeding.com/emd6bFhl
04:36:13 <EvanR> not tonight, but I want to see if I can add let bindings, free variables, higher order abstract syntax. All of which I'll need to heavily review
04:39:35 <EvanR> in this case the parser can get away with returning data DynamicSh = ShBW (Sh Bool) | ShColor (Sh Color) | ShCutout (Sh (Maybe Color)), I think
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04:50:13 <ski> ok, no existentials there
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04:51:07 <ski> (`let' would presumably bring them, though .. and then you'd possibly need to consider if you'd want to annotate the existentials with constraints)
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04:52:13 <ski> EvanR : yea .. but how do you get to `DynamicSh' ? do you simply try enumerating the alternatives ?
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04:58:24 <EvanR> ski, eyeballing each constructor... it seems like sometimes it's straight forward how to parse the payload or die trying, it's expecting something with a particular type, in two cases it's totally polymorphic so whatever comes back from the recursive parser could be used...
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04:59:41 <ski> EvanR : yea, i guess it's more `Layer',`Shift' and `Xform' which are problematic, in that sense
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05:02:40 <EvanR> the three possible results each have a monotype, so that would let Layer construct if the two Dyn results matched
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05:03:03 <ksqsf> Is it possible to set multiple implicit parameters by simply calling a function, instead of 'let' them one by one?
05:03:22 <ksqsf> like the implicitparams version of defaultXXX
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05:12:22 ksqsf feels bad for using CPP to do this
05:13:21 <EvanR> my running fold over "reasons not to use implicit params" continues xD
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05:14:31 <ski> EvanR : oh, you're thinking about involving `Dyn' ?
05:14:49 <EvanR> DynamicSh
05:14:53 <ski> oh
05:15:03 <ski> hm
05:15:06 <EvanR> it seems to give enough info for subparsers to work
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05:15:13 <ski> that being `exists a. Sh a', or ?
05:15:28 <EvanR> no you missed it
05:15:31 <EvanR> data DynamicSh = ShBW (Sh Bool) | ShColor (Sh Color) | ShCutout (Sh (Maybe Color))
05:15:57 <ski> ksqsf : i suppose you could `withContext :: ((?x :: T,...) => a) -> a'
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05:16:33 <ski> oh, right, that one
05:16:45 <ski> (sorry, i forgot that was named `DynamicSh')
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05:17:16 <ski> EvanR : hm, so you're saying you're repackaging `DynamicSh' ?
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05:18:09 <EvanR> i introduced this type when wondering what a parser would return, coincidentally (?) it seem like it would let the parser work recursively and satisfy the polymorphism
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05:19:15 <EvanR> data SomeSh = forall a . SomeSh (Sh a) seems kind of useless
05:19:18 <EvanR> in this case
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05:20:07 <ksqsf> ski: ah thanks this indeed works
05:20:11 <EvanR> or not? you can still unwrap and pattern match...
05:20:13 <ksqsf> (though the callback style is less ideal)
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05:37:57 <ski> EvanR : "seems kind of useless" -- yea, especially considering `Union',`Inter',`Minus',`Colorize',`Layer',`BGcolor'
05:38:56 <EvanR> how do you mean
05:39:49 <ski> those have recursive calls ("argument types") where the argument isn't just a tyvar
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05:41:50 <ski> so, if you're given an `exists a. Sh a' for a parsed sub-part, now you must somehow determine if this `a' matches `Bool' / `Maybe Color' / `Maybe b' .. and that (in general) may require unbounded search (because of `Shift' and `Xform' just forwarding the parameter to the recursive calls)
05:42:43 <ski> (when i say "recursive calls", i'm wearing my logic programmer hat, viewing the `data' type, with constructors, as clauses for a predicate)
05:43:07 <ski> ksqsf : np :)
05:44:14 <EvanR> it's almost midnight but I'd like to know more how a GADT with constructors are clauses for a predicate if you're wearing a logic programmer hat
05:46:04 <EvanR> also, I'm sure I see the real possibility of unbounded search, if it came down to that
05:46:30 <EvanR> er, not sure
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05:49:34 <EvanR> an infinite tree?
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05:57:47 <ski> well, in Twelf syntax (which is a logical framework, and sortof a dependently-typed logic programming language), it'd be
05:58:03 <ski> sh : type <- type.
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05:58:14 <ski> ball : sh bool.
05:58:25 <ski> axigon : sh bool <- float4.
05:58:38 <ski> trigon : sh bool <- float2 <- float2 <- float2.
05:58:47 <ski> curve2i : sh bool <- float2 <- float2 <- float2.
05:58:55 <ski> union : sh bool <- sh bool <- sh bool.
05:59:03 <ski> inter : sh bool <- sh bool <- sh bool.
05:59:11 <ski> minus : sh bool <- sh bool <- sh bool.
05:59:18 <ski> colorize : sh (maybe color) <- sh bool <- color.
05:59:26 <ski> layer : sh (maybe A ) <- sh (maybe A) <- sh (maybe A).
05:59:34 <ski> shift : shift : sh A <- sh A <- float2.
05:59:40 <ski> xform : sh A <- sh A <- float4.
05:59:44 <ski> bgcolor : sh color <- sh (maybe color) <- color.
06:00:06 <EvanR> ok I think that all made it through
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06:00:55 <ski> in Prolog syntax (if we ignore the names of the clauses (which are the data constructor names). that's not really a thing in Prolog), it'd be tupled rather than curried, so e.g. `colorize' would be
06:01:18 <ski> sh(maybe(A )) :- color,sh(bool).
06:01:48 <ski> (oh, and there's no static types, so the signature `sh : type <- type.' corresponds to nothing)
06:02:15 <ski> anyway, this is a recursive predicate, sh/1, of one parameter
06:02:39 <EvanR> sh(maybe(A space space space space )) ? really?
06:02:57 <ski> (to align with `sh(maybe(color))' ..)
06:03:18 <EvanR> oh, don't worry, nothing's aligning
06:03:24 ski smiles
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06:03:43 <ski> (it's only morning here, now)
06:03:52 <EvanR> what is :-
06:04:02 <ski> converse implication. same as `<-'
06:04:57 <ski> anyway, in this case i guess there isn't *too* much utility in pondering how sh/1 might execute as a predicate (proof-search) ..
06:05:20 <ski> but sometimes, considerations from such a view can be helpful, when considering such a data type
06:05:44 <ski> e.g. sometimes it can be useful to introduce an accumulator parameter
06:06:06 <ski> or to remove unwanted non-determinism, due to associativity e.g.
06:07:30 <EvanR> proof-search of sh/1 means find any possible value?
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06:07:54 <ski> e.g. you might want something like `data Path :: Node -> Node -> * where Empty :: Path n n; Append :: Path m n -> Path n o -> Path m o; Single :: Edge m n -> Path m n', for reflexive-transitive closure of `Edge'
06:07:56 <EvanR> or all possible values
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06:09:22 <ski> but you can associate `Append' in multiple ways. so it may be better to use `Cons :: Edge m n -> Path n o -> m o' (or maybe `Snoc :: Path m n -> Edge n o -> Path m o') (right- (/ left-) associating all the `Append's (and removing `Empty' to the left), and then fusing with `Single')
06:09:51 <ski> and this corresponds to a common similar refactoring for a predicate in logic programming
06:11:31 <ski> "proof-search of sh/1 means find any possible value?","or all possible values" -- well, first off, what do you mean by "value" ? the proofs in LP corresponds to the values of the `data' type in Haskell, while the values (the parameters of the predicates) in LP corresponds to the `data' type parameters (whether they be of kind `*' or something else, like `Node')
06:12:56 <ski> proof-search means that we search for proofs (values of the `data' type). but, it also means that we may know some of the parameters beforehand, while we're searching for possible values of the others (we could also partially know a parameter, know some constructors in it, while searching for what to fill the holes in them with. so a parameter can be both input and output)
06:14:19 <ski> in your parsing example, if you parse for `Sh (Maybe Color)', then that's calling sh/1 in the sh(+) mode (parameter is input). but if you parse for `Sh a', for an `a' that you hope to discover (if parsing succeeds), then that's output, or mode sh(-)
06:14:21 <EvanR> so parameters are the payload
06:14:40 <ski> and one could imagine intermediates, like parsing for `Sh (Maybe a)', searching for `a' ..
06:14:49 <ski> yea, in LP, they are
06:15:13 <ski> but for `data' types, we also care more about the proofs (the values of the `data' type)
06:15:21 <ski> but it can still be a useful view
06:15:35 <ski> (this is an analogy with LP, in addition to the type class analogy with LP)
06:16:25 <EvanR> so a search could produce the parameters, but not the proof
06:16:55 <ski> well, if you return a value of type `Sh a', for some (discovered) `a', then that value is "the proof"
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06:17:21 <ski> but in (plain) LP, the proof would never get materialized. it'd just appear as an execution trace
06:17:36 <ski> (in Twelf, you can reify it, though, so that you can access it like a value)
06:18:05 <EvanR> what do you even get if you don't get a value of the type
06:18:07 <EvanR> if anything
06:18:27 <EvanR> just a listing of parameters
06:18:40 <EvanR> the one unknown parameter
06:18:55 <ski> (and if it's just an execution trace, then presumably we don't care about different execution traces leading to the same solutions (instantiations for output parameters) .. and so we can use refactorings which don't preserve proofs, but which preserve solutions. while, if we also care about proofs, we need to be more careful with such)
06:19:05 <ski> yes
06:19:20 <EvanR> interesting
06:19:43 <ski> e.g. in Prolog, if you perform the query `?- append([0,1],[2,3,4],L).', you'll get as answer `L = [0,1,2,3,4]'
06:20:43 <EvanR> so append if a function
06:20:49 <EvanR> so append is a function
06:20:50 <ski> while, if you ask `?- append(F,B,[0,1,2]).', you'll get three alternative solutions, `F = [],B = [0,1,2] ; F = [0],B = [1,2] ; F = [0,1],B = [2] ; F = [0,1,2],B = []' (comma is conjunction, semicolon is disjunction)
06:21:10 <ski> it's like solving an equation, you get a disjunction of solutions
06:21:50 <ski> append/3 is a predicate, a relation. `append(F,B,L)' expresses that the concatentation of the lists `F' and `B' is the list `L'. in Haskell terms, `f ++ b = l'
06:22:06 <EvanR> i see
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06:22:25 <EvanR> so that is what the data constructors are
06:22:32 <ski> Prolog will enumerate all solutions, via backtracking (depth-first search), eventually (unless you commit to a given overall solution)
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06:23:13 <ski> Prolog doesn't have functions, except in the trivial sense of data constructors
06:23:32 <ski> (they package data, but they don't compute)
06:23:44 <ski> only predicates express general computation
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06:25:11 <ski> (in Mercury, which is logic/functional (with a static type system borrowing quite a bit from Haskell, including type classes, existentials, ..), there are real computational functions .. but, just like predicates, we can also run them "backwards" and "sideways". this is like we'd automatically get views (when possible) for undoing functions)
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06:25:49 <ski> (s/three/four/)
06:26:06 <EvanR> run a function sideways, what
06:26:15 <ski> well, imagine you could write
06:26:17 <EvanR> this I gotta see
06:26:31 <ski> foo ([0,1,0] ++ xs) = ..xs..
06:26:55 <ski> here, we're calling `(++)' with left operand as input, right operand as output, and result as input
06:27:02 <ski> or say
06:27:13 <ski> bar xs (xs ++ ys) = ..xs..ys..
06:27:35 <ski> (same thing, except that this time, the left operand isn't a literal constant, but involves a (previously bound) variable)
06:28:21 <ski> (Erlang has a special-case for `++', for this. but in Mercury, this is a general mechanism that you can have for any functions where it makes sense)
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06:30:42 <EvanR> foo is pattern matching using a function?
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06:30:51 <ski> in Haskell, you could make `pattern Prepend010 :: (Num a,Eq a) => () => [a] -> [a]; pattern Prepend010 xs = 0 : 1 : 0 : xs', and then you could say `foo (Prepend010 xs) = ..x..'
06:30:54 <ski> yes
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06:31:21 <ski> but, afaik, `ViewPattern's doesn't allow you to parameterize with expressions, so you couldn't do `bar' like this
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06:33:00 <EvanR> and bar xs (xs ++ ys) = is using the same variable twice
06:33:31 <ski> yes. the first `xs' is a pattern (so, output. we're getting the value of `xs' from matching this pattern)
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06:34:01 <ski> the second `xs' is an expression (input. we're using the previously bound value of `xs', passing it as input to `(++)', in its left operand)
06:34:29 <EvanR> then first occurrence of a pattern variable is "an output"
06:34:40 <EvanR> after that it is referring to that output
06:35:16 <ski> and the `ys' (pattern) is output from the pattern-match on the pattern `xs ++ ys' (whose result will be an *input*, matched against this pattern, and which comes from the caller of `bar' (passing second parameter as input))
06:35:22 <ski> yes
06:36:04 <EvanR> what does xs ++ ys even match
06:36:05 <ski> Mercury is quite interesting :)
06:36:16 <ski> (and logic programming in general is fun :)
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06:36:38 <ski> it matches the input list against the concatenation of the two lists `xs' and `ys'
06:36:48 <EvanR> ah
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06:37:10 <EvanR> is there a "SICP" of logic programming somewhere
06:37:16 <ski> if both `xs' and `ys' were to be output (like in my `?- append(F,B,[0,1,2]).' example above), then the match would be non-deterministic, there'd (in general) be multiple ways of matching
06:37:24 <EvanR> I feel like jumping into mercury would be skipping a few things
06:37:50 <ski> but, since, in this case, `xs' is already bound/instantiated, it is input, not output, and therefore the match is semi-deterministic (at most one solution, either match success, or failure to match)
06:39:05 <ski> yea .. it would probably be easier (and in some ways more instructive, especially all the pain you can encounter, and which Mercury protects you from, but if you jump into Mercury, skipping Prolog, it's harder to understand what it's fussing about) to start with basic Prolog
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06:39:55 <ski> "Re: Mercury in academic teaching?" <https://www.mercurylang.org/list-archives/users/2006-October/004000.html>
06:40:17 <ski> <https://www.mercurylang.org/list-archives/users/2006-October/004011.html>, both by Richard A. O'Keefe
06:40:31 <ski> are two intersting posts that mention this
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06:45:26 <ski> (some of the points he's making are really important)
06:46:04 <EvanR> the discussion about compiler error messages is interesting
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06:46:33 <EvanR> it's really an alien language
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06:49:08 <ski> yea, but so's Haskell :)
06:49:18 <ski> (oh, and i'm still sad about Aditi)
06:50:24 <EvanR> yeah I mean in any compiler I've ever used
06:50:55 <EvanR> Aditi?
06:51:59 <ski> Deductive database (using predicate logic (Datalog- / Prolog- like) syntax, rather than something baroque like SQL ..) that integrated nicely with Mercury)
06:52:40 <ski> (and Mercury mostly uses the (Edinburgh standard) Prolog syntax)
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06:54:02 <ski> (oh, and there's ##prolog and #mercury channels, here, in case you wonder)
06:54:24 <EvanR> right
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06:56:54 <ski> "is there a \"SICP\" of logic programming somewhere" -- well, hmm .. the closest, imho, would probably be
06:56:57 <ski> @where CTM
06:56:57 <lambdabot> "Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming", by Peter Van Roy,Seif Haridi, at <http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html>
06:57:56 <ski> it is multiparadigm, but it showcases stuff using Oz, which at its base is a logic programming language, with functional, stateful, object-oriented, and concurrent layers
06:59:37 <ski> one of the particularly interesting things about it is its declarative (deterministic) concurrency, where you can use "logic variables" (a la Prolog, which effect bi-directional communication) (called "dataflow variables" in the context of concurrency. one can also artificially make them onesided, to prevent information from flowing in one direction) to communicate inbetween threads
07:01:08 <ski> there are also other nice books, like "The Art of Prolog" by Leon Sterling,Ehud Shapiro,"Prolog: Programming for Artificial Intelligence" by Ivan Bratko,"The Craft of Prolog" (this one is more practical, with lots of useful advice) by Richard A. O'Keefe
07:01:24 <sm2n> I liked art of prolog
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07:03:39 <ski> fwiw, "Programming in Prolog" by Clocksin,Mellish is the classic starter book on Prolog
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07:04:31 <ski> there's also a nice tutorial, "Learn Prolog Now!", online, by Patrick Blackburn,et al.
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07:04:53 <ski> and, iirc, Amzi! Prolog has a tutorial about how to make a text adventure in Prolog
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07:06:35 <ski> (oh, Oz also has support for Constraint Programming (CP), specifically Constraint Logic Programming (CLP). many Prolog systems also do, to varying degrees (simplex solvers, boolean solvers, finite domains, ..). ECLiPSe is one such system that seems particularly specialized/focused on this)
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07:29:59 <whatif> inside a cabal project, runghc a.hs, it shows could not load module `Web.Scotty' it is a member of the hidden package `scotty-0.12'...' how I can solve this?
07:30:12 <whatif> without :set -package scotty?
07:30:39 <whatif> and no ghc to compile, I'd like to run it with runghc
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07:54:26 <Andrew> Prolog, nice
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08:47:08 <polyphem> there is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/csp-1.4.0/docs/Control-Monad-CSP.html for ConstrainedSatisfactionProblems which is "constrained logic programming" in haskell
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09:06:09 <Andrew> If somebody takes your code and makes it imperative, do you think that's trolling?
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09:06:20 <Andrew> i.e. no functions, everything are IO etches
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09:46:53 <Andrew> I originally think that partially applied functions are silly when I did Python
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09:55:35 <[exa]> you were not wrong, they are literally silly in python.
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10:01:07 <whatif> in scotty, when user visit '/test', then `get '/test'` will run, but I'd like to save the msg within `get '/test'' to out of it, how to do that?
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10:01:53 <whatif> it's like every function f run, save f's inner variable to outside, so that f can read previous result
10:02:00 <whatif> how to archive that?
10:02:41 <whatif> with global variable it's easy, just variable reassignment
10:02:59 <polyphem> pass f an STM TQueue , then in f write to the queue
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10:03:50 <polyphem> another thread can read the q and process further
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10:09:14 <polyphem> if you only need previos call result you can also use a TMVar with swapTMVar
10:10:34 <polyphem> outside of f you have to first create your TMVar (Maybe StoredResult)
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10:49:19 <MatthiasG2> hi, my book/tutorial says that I have to use the let keyword to define a name in ghci. however, i can define names without the let keyword. is my literature outdated? do i miss something?
10:49:54 <geekosaur> it's a little outdated, yes
10:50:19 <geekosaur> ghci has been getting easier to use over the past few years
10:50:42 <geekosaur> it used to act like the inside of a "do" but it's acting more like a file toplevel these days
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10:51:12 <geekosaur> so you can define without "let", you can use "import" instead of ":m", etc.
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10:53:20 <MatthiasG2> ok, thank you :)
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13:28:54 Andrew needs to write something practical
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14:50:00 <Andrew> why is readFile strict?
14:51:01 <hpc> in what way?
14:51:07 <Andrew> Not lazy
14:51:32 <hpc> it opens the file, but then the contents of the file are lazy IO
14:51:47 <hpc> and then when you evaluate [] the file is closed
14:51:52 Andrew studies IO more
14:52:17 <hpc> you probably don't want to deal with lazy IO if you're just starting out
14:52:21 <geekosaur> which readFile are you talking about?
14:53:17 <Andrew> Prelude System.IO
14:53:21 <geekosaur> System.IO.readFile is lazy. the readFile operations on strict ByteString and strict Text are strict because they don't have a choice. the ones on lazy ByteString and lazy Text should again be lazy, but in chunks rather than characters
14:53:34 <geekosaur> "The file is read lazily, on demand, as with getContents."
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14:53:57 <whatif> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scotty-login-session-0.1.0.0/candidate/docs/src/Web-Scotty-Login-Session.html#SessionConfig
14:54:03 <hpc> i recommend you use openFile, and the various operations on Handle values
14:54:06 <whatif> defaultSessionConfig :: SessionConfig
14:54:08 <Andrew> Yay, thanks
14:54:12 <hpc> in System.IO
14:54:14 <whatif> defaultSessionConfig = SessionConfig "sessions.sqlite3" 1200 120
14:54:29 <Andrew> I actually just wanted one that returns a string... I'm not sure what IO () strings are
14:54:45 <whatif> Couldn't match expected type `SessionConfig' with actual type `Bool -> SessionConfig' * Probable cause: `SessionConfig' is applied to too few arguments In the expression: SessionConfig "sessions.sqlite3" 1200 86400
14:55:07 <whatif> why this say applied too few arguments?
14:55:19 <whatif> mySessionConfig = SessionConfig "sessions.sqlite3" 1200 86400
14:55:44 <geekosaur> whatif, are you actually using the same version as that documentation?
14:55:58 <geekosaur> "scotty-login-session-0.1.0.0"
14:55:59 <hpc> (IO String) is the type of values that do stuff to produce a String
14:56:26 <hpc> ("abc" ++ "def") IS a string, in a way that "open a file and give me its contents" isn't
14:56:41 <whatif> geekosaur: 0.1.2.0 I'm using
14:56:53 <hpc> like how the ls command is a formula for the files in a directory, but not a list of files in and of itself
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14:57:51 <geekosaur> then you will need to consult the documentation for that version
14:57:52 <whatif> found it https://github.com/asg0451/scotty-login-session/blob/master/src/Web/Scotty/Login/Session.hs
14:58:12 <Andrew> hpc: So... what's the type of e.g. `readFile "/etc/passwd"`?
14:58:33 <Andrew> I got confused with: `The readFile function reads a file and returns the contents of the file as a string. The file is read lazily, on demand, as with getContents.`
14:58:43 <Andrew> Can I just treat it as a string?
14:59:12 <geekosaur> whatif, it now takes an extra Bool indicating if the session is in debug mode or not https://github.com/asg0451/scotty-login-session/blob/master/src/Web/Scotty/Login/Session.hs#L104
15:00:43 <whatif> yes
15:01:08 <geekosaur> Andrew, an IO String is not a String. however if you use do notation you can get a String out of it, as long as you put it back in IO when you're done
15:01:19 <geekosaur> (you use ``pure` for that)
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15:01:25 Andrew kinda gets the point
15:01:45 <hpc> Andrew: you bring the function to the IO action, in order to use the contents of the file
15:01:50 <Andrew> Ill just scower the internet for an example and I'd match it with the nameless theories in my head
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15:02:06 <hpc> say you have some isValidPassword :: (String -> Bool)
15:02:11 <hpc> then you can use this:
15:02:13 <hpc> :t fmap
15:02:14 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
15:02:26 <hpc> a = String, b = Bool, f = IO
15:02:41 <hpc> and fmap isValidPassword (readFile "/etc/passwd") :: IO Bool
15:02:43 <Andrew> Oh, I get you
15:02:52 <Andrew> Thanks!
15:02:54 <hpc> there's lots of functions similar to fmap
15:02:56 <hpc> :t (>>=)
15:02:57 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
15:03:01 <hpc> ^ is the big one
15:03:23 <hpc> so for instance, there's no actual passwords in /etc/passwd anymore
15:03:55 <Andrew> I'm just using /etc/password as a random filename example, but I get you, thanks :D
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15:03:59 <hpc> but you can do readFile "/etc/passwd" >>= \passwd -> readFile "/etc/shadow" >>= \shadow -> checkPassword passwd shadow
15:04:13 <hpc> and sequence things that way
15:04:33 Andrew tries to recall what the backslash means
15:04:37 <hpc> lambda
15:05:16 <Andrew> ()
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15:05:56 <Andrew> Thanks :)
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16:56:19 <thyriaen> i have written a little tool : https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4oDIQ4ud i would like to filter out some a specific subset of my powerset given a given sum, but the way i wrote it it just gives me the sum, but i want to display the subset and not the sum
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17:10:10 <RMSBach> thyriaen: you mean you want result of `run` to be the set of subsets of the powerset of `dat` that satisfy your predicate from `filli` on their sum?
17:10:52 <RMSBach> thyriaen: Just get rid of mapper, and stuff that work into the predicate in `filli`
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17:13:00 <dminuoso> thyriaen: Hi, you probably want to use `sum` rather than your own `summer
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17:13:28 <dminuoso> Or alternatively, use `foldl'` rather than `fold`
17:14:21 <dminuoso> foldl on lists of non-trivial size will rapidly consume stack space
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17:19:04 <RMSBach> thyriaen: https://bpa.st/IQOQ
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17:20:03 <RMSBach> Sorry I replaced `run` with an effectful `main`, so I could run it with runhaskell
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17:42:37 <thyriaen> RMSBach, i will look at it and have a little think
17:44:09 <thyriaen> RMSBach, yes it does what i want, thank you
17:44:31 <RMSBach> thyriaen: no problem
17:44:39 <thyriaen> let me try if i understand
17:45:01 <thyriaen> ((== 271.36) . sumer) is a new function which first sums and then compares the values
17:45:20 <RMSBach> Yep
17:45:29 <thyriaen> so it is [double] -> Boolean
17:45:49 <RMSBach> Yes
17:45:49 <thyriaen> ah and then it filters
17:45:53 <thyriaen> yeath that makes sense
17:46:21 <thyriaen> if i would first define that function as a standalone one
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17:46:30 <thyriaen> it would be
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17:47:48 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so i found this paragraph recently, which i know more than something about:
17:48:18 <segfaultfizzbuzz> https://github.com/conal/talk-2014-bayhac-denotational-design#why-continuous-time-matters in this link, the paragraph beginning, "Continuous time allows integration and differentiation to be expressed directly and meaningfully. ..."
17:48:32 <segfaultfizzbuzz> this is part of a defense of laziness, which is something i don't really know about
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17:48:56 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i feel fairly confident, unless i am missing something, that this paragraph makes a number of false claims about integration
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17:50:51 <segfaultfizzbuzz> only perhaps in an introductory undergraduate class or in a situation where accuracy was very unimportant would someone use an euler integration
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17:53:01 <thyriaen> dminuoso, but i use foldl not fold
17:53:30 <RMSBach> segfaultfizzbuzz: I think they just included that as the simplest example. "The easiest path for an implementor is to use Euler integration..."
17:54:53 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i don't think the author means like arbitrary precision arithmetic here, he's talking about doubles
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17:55:54 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and using laziness doesn't mean that you are using runge-kutta, so i really don't understand the point here
17:56:07 <dminuoso> thyriaen: Sorry. I meant foldl' vs foldl
17:56:15 <dminuoso> thyriaen: `foldl` is almost always wrong.
17:56:28 <dminuoso> It's a strange accident that the one you likely want has a backtick attached to it.
17:56:48 <dminuoso> And the one without is almost certainly always wrong. :p
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17:57:08 <dminuoso> Its particularly confusing because in foldr its slightly different
17:57:38 <dminuoso> (i.e. foldlr' is almost certainly wrong, foldr is what you likely want)
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17:59:36 <thyriaen_> dminuoso, i don't understand :p
17:59:55 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: Simply said: dont use foldl, use foldl'
18:00:03 <thyriaen_> what is the difference ?
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18:00:39 <dminuoso> % foldl (+) 0 [0..1000000000]
18:00:40 <yahb> dminuoso: *** Exception: heap overflow
18:00:41 <dminuoso> % foldl' (+) 0 [0..1000000000]
18:00:46 <yahb> dminuoso: [Timed out]
18:00:50 <dminuoso> % foldl' (+) 0 [0..1000000000]
18:00:56 <yahb> dminuoso: [Timed out]
18:01:01 <thyriaen_> my ghci does not know foldl'
18:01:03 <dminuoso> Okay, this is probably a slightly race considition
18:01:09 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: Import it from Data.Foldable
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18:01:18 <dminuoso> % foldl' (+) 0 [0..100000000]
18:01:21 <yahb> dminuoso: 5000000050000000
18:01:22 <dminuoso> % foldl (+) 0 [0..100000000]
18:01:23 <yahb> dminuoso: *** Exception: heap overflow
18:01:25 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: ^- there.
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18:01:51 <thyriaen_> can i just use foldr because i use + in my example ?
18:02:20 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: foldr in this usage can overflow your stack.
18:02:23 <xerox> thyriaen_: import Data.List
18:02:35 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: (or your heap)
18:02:46 <dminuoso> Depends a bit on settings I guess?
18:03:16 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: Broadly the problem is, with foldr you turn this list into something like this: (1 + (2 + (3 + (4 + ...)))
18:03:38 <dsal> But why not `sum`?
18:03:53 <dminuoso> But that's particularly bad, because under the bood the STG machine will have to maintain a stack of these arguments 1, 2, 3, 4, ... until it sees the final sum
18:04:00 <dminuoso> And similarly, with foldl:
18:04:37 <thyriaen_> dsal, good idea :p
18:04:43 <dminuoso> You get ....(((n + n-1) + n-2) + n-3) + n-4 ...
18:04:50 <dminuoso> Which means you need all these things represented on the heap
18:04:53 <dminuoso> At the same time.
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18:05:28 <dsal> It's good to know `foldr` vs. `foldl` (and maybe `fold`) and when strictness is important, but also nice to know when you don't need to write something because it's common.
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18:05:29 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: foldl' behaves like a proper loop that is *strict*, so it instantly calcualtes the result and doesnt keep the thunk around for later.
18:06:01 <thyriaen_> does that mean foldl is less lazy ?
18:06:05 <dminuoso> No, foldl is more lazy.
18:06:11 <thyriaen_> yea
18:06:11 <dminuoso> foldl' is strict in the accumulator
18:06:13 <thyriaen_> thats what i ment
18:06:18 <thyriaen_> foldl' being less lazy
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18:06:28 <dminuoso> well, lets not say "less lazy" and say what it is exactly
18:06:31 <dminuoso> its strict in the accumulator.
18:06:38 <thyriaen_> what does that mean ?
18:06:48 <dminuoso> % :t foldl
18:06:49 <yahb> dminuoso: Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
18:06:58 <thyriaen_> what does it mean to be strict ?
18:07:18 <dminuoso> it means not-lazy
18:07:25 <thyriaen_> ok
18:07:33 <dsal> Do you understand what a thunk is?
18:07:35 <dminuoso> operationally it means, it doesnt create a thunk to represent it.
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18:07:43 <dminuoso> it rather immediately calculates the result instead
18:07:46 <thyriaen_> dsal, no
18:07:51 <thyriaen_> dminuoso, i see, thanks
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18:07:57 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: Are you familiar with traditional programming langauges?
18:07:59 <dminuoso> say javascript?
18:08:03 <thyriaen_> dminuoso, yes
18:08:25 <dminuoso> Okay, so you can imagine a thunk to be something like `() => some_computation`, a kind of computation you can compute at will later.
18:08:42 <thyriaen_> yes, i understand
18:08:44 <dminuoso> But its deferred in the sense that you have to explicitly demand the result of its computation
18:08:52 <dminuoso> We call this a thunk
18:08:57 <thyriaen_> okay
18:09:10 <dsal> Think `f (1 + 2)` in a strict language, that calls `f` with `3`. In a lazy language, that calls `f` with a thunk of `1 + 2` which may eventually resolve to `3`. But it also may not.
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18:09:40 <thyriaen_> so when i lay in the bed all day and don't work at all but i know what i could do to work i am basically a thunk
18:09:57 <dminuoso> One could say that, yes.
18:09:58 <dsal> Well, no. The thunk is your plan of what to do.
18:10:10 <thyriaen_> okay :p thanks
18:10:14 <dsal> Laziness means you don't do the thing until someone calls you and asks you for it.
18:10:26 <thyriaen_> dsal, sounds like me
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18:10:38 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: We have no direct way of specifying thunks, but operationall you can imagine that most expressions you write become a thunk
18:10:49 <thyriaen_> yes i understand now
18:10:50 <thyriaen_> thank you
18:10:52 <dminuoso> and we say a thunk is *forced* is you demand its result
18:10:59 <dminuoso> if you demand its result
18:11:11 <thyriaen_> i love haskell so much
18:11:15 <dminuoso> So these thunks represent "lazy computations", by demand their result, it starts computing them
18:11:22 <dminuoso> And even more:
18:12:00 <dminuoso> once a thunk is computed, the thunk is sort of replaced with the resulting value (this is strictly speaking a lie, but if you want to learn the exact details there's a great paper to read)
18:12:05 <dsal> A typical value might be in a box that either a value of type `T` or a plan to resolve to a value of type `T` and you don't necessarily know the difference because it doesn't matter. You can demand that it's not a thunk in particular locations. That's what `foldl'` does.
18:12:09 <dsal> @src foldl'
18:12:09 <lambdabot> foldl' f a [] = a
18:12:09 <lambdabot> foldl' f a (x:xs) = let a' = f a x in a' `seq` foldl' f a' xs
18:13:00 <dminuoso> This lets you *share* the result across two references. Say you write `let a = <expensive expression> in (a, a)`, and you *force* the entire tuple, then `a` first becomes a thunk, and its referenced twice. If you access the first element of the tuple, the thunk of a is forced, and if you then access the second element, it will reference the already computed result
18:13:05 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: ^- does this make any sense to you?
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18:13:44 <thyriaen_> yes
18:13:45 <dminuoso> Ah wait. a slight miswording: `a` is already created as a thunk by means of the compiler, it doesnt happen on the spot.
18:14:06 <thyriaen_> h0ly shit
18:14:08 <thyriaen_> it is genious
18:14:24 <dminuoso> Now this would all be in the way, because sometimes representing something as a thunk is not helpful
18:14:42 <dminuoso> because that thunk needs a representation, it means we need to allocate that representation of the thunk (and its entire computation) on memory
18:14:55 <dminuoso> So if we have:
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18:15:12 <dminuoso> (((10 + 9) + 8) + 7) + ...
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18:15:30 <dminuoso> Then we this creates a lot of thunks, beacuse each sub-expression is kept lazy
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18:16:40 <thyriaen_> yes
18:16:45 <thyriaen_> i understand
18:16:51 <dminuoso> So here comes the trick
18:16:53 <dminuoso> say we write a function
18:17:03 <dminuoso> f x = (x, x)
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18:17:28 <dminuoso> We can give an additional annotation to that function that says, when you enter this function, automatically *force* (evaluate its thunk) an argument
18:17:31 <dminuoso> This looks like this:
18:17:36 <dminuoso> f (!x) = (x, x)
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18:17:46 <dminuoso> We say `f is strict in its argument`
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18:18:11 <dminuoso> Which means, upon entering this function, at the same time, the argument will *first* be forced.
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18:19:14 <dminuoso> This is particularly helpful for some recursive functions, as it prevents an accumulation of thunks, as every time you'd enter the recursive step (and pass along some expression into itself), it could immediately force that argument
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18:22:13 <dminuoso> % myFoldl' f a [] = a; myFoldl' f !a (x:xs) = myFoldl' f (f a x) x
18:22:14 <yahb> dminuoso: ; <interactive>:5:1: error:; * Couldn't match type `t1' with `[t1]'; Expected: (t -> t1 -> t) -> t -> t1 -> t; Actual: (t -> t1 -> t) -> t -> [t1] -> t; * Relevant bindings include myFoldl' :: (t -> t1 -> t) -> t -> t1 -> t (bound at <interactive>:5:1)
18:22:17 <dminuoso> % myFoldl' f a [] = a; myFoldl' f !a (x:xs) = myFoldl' f (f a x) xs
18:22:17 <yahb> dminuoso:
18:22:37 <dminuoso> % myFoldl' (+) 0 [0..100000000]
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18:22:43 <yahb> dminuoso: [Timed out]
18:22:57 <dminuoso> Ah well, this is a bit racy. You can try this out in your GHCi if you like
18:23:14 <dminuoso> thyriaen_: ^- does this make sense now?
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18:25:26 <dminuoso> Interesting to note, that if you have a function that pattern matches on its argument, its automatically strict in that argument as well (since to do the pattern matching, you have to evaluate the argument enough to see the constructor)
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18:25:52 <dminuoso> i.e. `f True = ...; f False = ...` is also strict in its argument. Therefore a ! (pronounced bang) would do nothing here.
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18:29:31 <energizer> i see there are some packages for functions with keyword arguments. how popular are those?
18:29:52 <dsal> energizer: What do you mean?
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18:30:07 <monochrom> I've never used one. I didn't even know someone made one.
18:30:43 <energizer> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/named
18:31:14 <monochrom> I didn't even know I would need a whole bloody library if I wanted keyword arguments. I thought I could just define a record-syntax type and THE END.
18:31:37 <dsal> Oh neat. This is someone who really liked smalltalk, but wanted to write haskell.
18:33:13 <energizer> clojure and elisp support named parameters
18:35:41 <dminuoso> I like that it doesnt introduce the kmettiverse to dependencies.
18:35:47 <dminuoso> It's just base and nothing else.
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18:38:36 <monochrom> I think now I can speak freely about my objections to the recent lazy evaluation conversation.
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18:39:39 <monochrom> "less lazy" is actually truer than "not lazy" by the time you consider foldl' (\(x,y) -> (undefined, undefined)) which is less lazy than foldl but still retains some laziness because foldl' is only to the point of WHNF.
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18:41:09 <monochrom> I don't think we always need to introduce the word "thunk". If people already knows "expression", we can re-use it safely. Add "unevaluated" if the emphasis makes you feel better.
18:41:42 <monochrom> A thunk is a specific data structure that represents an expression. We don't always have to bring up the actual data structure.
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18:42:39 <monochrom> Behind this is the widespread false dichotomy between talking at the STG level just so as to talk about lazy evaluation and not talking about lazy evaluation at all. NO.
18:43:20 <monochrom> See for example John Launchbury's A Natural Semantics for Lazy Evaluation for how to talk about lazy evaluation at a less lower level.
18:44:34 <monochrom> And I will leave how "not lazy" and "strict" are still different for another day. (Yes Hughes, Wadler, SPJ speak like that. Yes that's right I'm saying they were wrong.)
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18:48:07 × mmos[m] quits (~mmosmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1:8340) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × cdsmith quits (~cdsmithma@2001:470:69fc:105::284) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × bb010g quits (~bb010g@2001:470:69fc:105::9a5) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × phuegrvs[m] quits (~phuegrvsm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:65e4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × tripa[m] quits (~tripamatr@2001:470:69fc:105::1:4f7e) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × eoiles[m] quits (~eoilesmat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6164) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × craige[m] quits (~craigemcw@2001:470:69fc:105::35f1) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × yehoshuapw quits (~yehoshuap@2001:470:69fc:105::a5f) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × Topik[m] quits (~topikmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::a082) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × nomeata quits (~nomeata@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5ed4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × jesser[m] quits (~jessermat@2001:470:69fc:105::d5ae) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × justosophy[m] quits (~justosoph@2001:470:69fc:105::572f) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × Sixto[m] quits (~provornyc@2001:470:69fc:105::1:74df) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × throwaaaa[m] quits (~throwaaaa@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6fe6) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × sekun[m] quits (~hsekmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::d18f) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × jchia[m] quits (~jchiamatr@2001:470:69fc:105::c50b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × Las[m] quits (~lasmatrix@2001:470:69fc:105::74e) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × wildsebastian quits (~wildsebas@2001:470:69fc:105::1:14b1) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × simmsb quits (~simmsb@2001:470:69fc:105::1:55c3) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × kalxd[m] quits (~kalxdmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::1:576e) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × sjanssen quits (~sjanssenm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:61d8) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × benjamin[m]123 quits (~benjaminm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:3f2f) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × mahene[m] quits (~mahenemat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6a93) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × james[m]123 quits (~jamesnina@2001:470:69fc:105::1:4203) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × sofviic[m] quits (~sofviicma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:51fd) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × siraben quits (~siraben@user/siraben) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × litharn[m] quits (~litharnma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:8336) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × unrooted quits (~unrooted@2001:470:69fc:105::a4a) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × EkaiZend[m] quits (~ekai-zend@2001:470:69fc:105::1:7756) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × Michal[m] quits (~oomiguelm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5ab0) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × fgaz quits (~fgaz@2001:470:69fc:105::842) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:07 × afotgkmnzj7asv3r quits (~afotgkmnz@2001:470:69fc:105::c24b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × codygman[m] quits (~codygman@2001:470:69fc:105::b4ba) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × ongy[m] quits (~ongymatri@2001:470:69fc:105::5018) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × denbrahe quits (~denbrahe@2001:470:69fc:105::19c0) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × RosarioPulella[m quits (~rosariopu@2001:470:69fc:105::a57) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × Morrow[m] quits (~morrowmma@2001:470:69fc:105::1d0) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × alex[m]123456 quits (~alexchete@2001:470:69fc:105::1:1001) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × octeep[m] quits (~octeepoct@2001:470:69fc:105::1:3dbf) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × cherryblossom[m] quits (~cherryblo@2001:470:69fc:105::b789) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × wysteriary[m] quits (~wysteriar@2001:470:69fc:105::a42e) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:08 × reza[m] quits (~rezaphone@2001:470:69fc:105::3eda) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × carmysilna quits (~brightly-@2001:470:69fc:105::2190) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × jmcantrell quits (~jmcantrel@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × Nate[m] quits (~m52957mat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:591a) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × Christoph[m] quits (~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × bitonic quits (~bitonic@2001:470:69fc:105::1812) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × quantum quits (~quantum@user/quantum/x-8556232) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × Artem[m] quits (~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × smichel17[m] quits (~smichel17@2001:470:69fc:105::2d32) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × jinsun_ quits (~jinsun@user/jinsun) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × ac quits (~aloiscoch@2001:470:69fc:105::65) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × marinelli[m] quits (~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × JoseC[m] quits (~jmcardonm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:7539) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × maralorn quits (~maralorn@2001:470:69fc:105::251) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × amesgen[m] quits (~amesgenm]@2001:470:69fc:105::82b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × maerwald[m] quits (~maerwaldm@2001:470:69fc:105::1ee) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:11 × ManofLetters[m] quits (~manoflett@2001:470:69fc:105::3be) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × SawyerBergeron[m quits (~sawyerber@2001:470:69fc:105::3036) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × joaquinmg[m] quits (~joaquinmg@2001:470:69fc:105::1:67d2) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × Heffalump[m] quits (~hsenagmat@2001:470:69fc:105::e11) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × aidy quits (~aidy@2001:470:69fc:105::c7b4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × xbreu quits (~xbreu@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5061) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × alexfmpe[m] quits (~alexfmpem@2001:470:69fc:105::38ba) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × vaibhavsagar[m] quits (~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × Orbstheorem quits (~orbstheor@2001:470:69fc:105::a56) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × thejuan24f[m] quits (~thejuan2m@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6569) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × pfurla-matrix quits (~pedrofurl@2001:470:69fc:105::1:51d7) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × cstml[m] quits (~cstmlmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5c07) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × zwro[m] quits (~zwromatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1d4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × SridharRatnakuma quits (~sridmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1c2) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × finalti[m] quits (~finaltima@2001:470:69fc:105::d909) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × prrxddq[m] quits (~prrxddqma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:4f72) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × fcortesi quits (~fcortesi@2001:470:69fc:105::f3a9) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × ormaaj quits (~ormaaj@user/ormaaj) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × hsiktas[m] quits (~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × psydroid quits (~psydroid@user/psydroid) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × kadoban quits (~kadoban@user/kadoban) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × sm quits (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × Deide quits (~deide@user/deide) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:12 × ParsaAlizadeh[m] quits (~lizadehma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:65a4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:13 × thomasjm[m] quits (~thomasjmm@2001:470:69fc:105::c6d9) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:14 × Yehoshua quits (~yehoshua@2001:470:69fc:105::1:593f) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:16 × schuelermine[m] quits (~schuelerm@user/schuelermine) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:16 × zfnmxt quits (~zfnmxtzfn@2001:470:69fc:105::2b32) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:16 × jneira[m] quits (~jneiramat@2001:470:69fc:105::d729) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:16 × fendor[m] quits (~fendormat@2001:470:69fc:105::fcbd) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:16 × DemiMarieObenour quits (~alwayscur@2001:470:69fc:105::4886) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:17 × Tisoxin quits (~ikosit@user/ikosit) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
18:48:43 → Morrow joins (~user@bzq-110-168-31-106.red.bezeqint.net)
18:48:54 × lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
18:49:19 × Null_A quits (~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:3470:fb13:1e9a:e210) (Remote host closed the connection)
18:50:51 → Null_A joins (~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:3470:fb13:1e9a:e210)
18:50:55 → juhp[m] joins (~juhpmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::6e9)
18:51:25 × justsomeguy quits (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Quit: WeeChat 3.4)
18:51:55 × Null_A quits (~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:3470:fb13:1e9a:e210) (Remote host closed the connection)
18:52:31 × Jing quits (~hedgehog@240e:390:7c53:a7e1:ed4d:fe0e:25ef:ac1f) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
18:55:08 × briandaed quits (~root@185.234.208.208.r.toneticgroup.pl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
18:57:40 → Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
18:59:26 → fgaz joins (~fgaz@2001:470:69fc:105::842)
18:59:26 → peddie joins (~peddie@2001:470:69fc:105::25d)
18:59:26 → cdsmith joins (~cdsmithma@2001:470:69fc:105::284)
18:59:26 → thomasjm[m] joins (~thomasjmm@2001:470:69fc:105::c6d9)
18:59:26 → JoseC[m] joins (~jmcardonm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:7539)
18:59:26 → zfnmxt joins (~zfnmxtzfn@2001:470:69fc:105::2b32)
18:59:26 → kadoban joins (~kadoban@user/kadoban)
18:59:26 → ericson2314 joins (~ericson23@2001:470:69fc:105::70c)
18:59:26 → moats joins (~oats@user/oats)
18:59:26 → Arathorn joins (~arathorn@2001:470:69fc:105::1f)
18:59:26 → amesgen[m] joins (~amesgenm]@2001:470:69fc:105::82b)
18:59:26 → Topik[m] joins (~topikmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::a082)
18:59:26 → unclechu joins (~unclechu@2001:470:69fc:105::354)
18:59:26 → maralorn joins (~maralorn@2001:470:69fc:105::251)
18:59:26 → reza[m] joins (~rezaphone@2001:470:69fc:105::3eda)
18:59:26 → quantum joins (~quantum@user/quantum/x-8556232)
18:59:26 → marinelli[m] joins (~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8)
18:59:27 → finalti[m] joins (~finaltima@2001:470:69fc:105::d909)
18:59:27 → denbrahe joins (~denbrahe@2001:470:69fc:105::19c0)
18:59:27 → Las[m] joins (~lasmatrix@2001:470:69fc:105::74e)
18:59:27 → sm joins (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
18:59:27 → mahene[m] joins (~mahenemat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6a93)
18:59:27 → hsiktas[m] joins (~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4)
18:59:27 → schuelermine[m] joins (~schuelerm@user/schuelermine)
18:59:27 → Deide joins (~deide@user/deide)
18:59:27 → Artem[m] joins (~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b)
18:59:27 → psydroid joins (~psydroid@user/psydroid)
18:59:27 → Christoph[m] joins (~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8)
18:59:27 → alexfmpe[m] joins (~alexfmpem@2001:470:69fc:105::38ba)
18:59:27 → jneira[m] joins (~jneiramat@2001:470:69fc:105::d729)
18:59:27 → ongy[m] joins (~ongymatri@2001:470:69fc:105::5018)
18:59:27 → siraben joins (~siraben@user/siraben)
18:59:27 → SawyerBergeron[m joins (~sawyerber@2001:470:69fc:105::3036)
18:59:27 → smichel17[m] joins (~smichel17@2001:470:69fc:105::2d32)
18:59:27 → ManofLetters[m] joins (~manoflett@2001:470:69fc:105::3be)
18:59:27 → Tisoxin joins (~ikosit@user/ikosit)
18:59:27 → fendor[m] joins (~fendormat@2001:470:69fc:105::fcbd)
18:59:27 → carmysilna joins (~brightly-@2001:470:69fc:105::2190)
18:59:27 → aidy joins (~aidy@2001:470:69fc:105::c7b4)
18:59:27 → DemiMarieObenour joins (~alwayscur@2001:470:69fc:105::4886)
18:59:27 → maerwald[m] joins (~maerwaldm@2001:470:69fc:105::1ee)
18:59:27 → jmcantrell joins (~jmcantrel@user/jmcantrell)
18:59:27 → vaibhavsagar[m] joins (~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe)
18:59:27 → wildsebastian joins (~wildsebas@2001:470:69fc:105::1:14b1)
18:59:28 → jinsun_ joins (~jinsun@user/jinsun)
18:59:28 → prrxddq[m] joins (~prrxddqma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:4f72)
18:59:28 → Heffalump[m] joins (~hsenagmat@2001:470:69fc:105::e11)
18:59:28 → joaquinmg[m] joins (~joaquinmg@2001:470:69fc:105::1:67d2)
18:59:28 → fcortesi joins (~fcortesi@2001:470:69fc:105::f3a9)
18:59:28 → ormaaj joins (~ormaaj@user/ormaaj)
18:59:28 → ac joins (~aloiscoch@2001:470:69fc:105::65)
18:59:28 → SridharRatnakuma joins (~sridmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1c2)
18:59:28 → unrooted joins (~unrooted@2001:470:69fc:105::a4a)
18:59:28 → bitonic joins (~bitonic@2001:470:69fc:105::1812)
18:59:28 → xbreu joins (~xbreu@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5061)
18:59:28 → Orbstheorem joins (~orbstheor@2001:470:69fc:105::a56)
18:59:28 → pfurla-matrix joins (~pedrofurl@2001:470:69fc:105::1:51d7)
18:59:28 → thejuan24f[m] joins (~thejuan2m@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6569)
18:59:28 → cstml[m] joins (~cstmlmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5c07)
18:59:28 → ParsaAlizadeh[m] joins (~lizadehma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:65a4)
18:59:28 → zwro[m] joins (~zwromatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1d4)
18:59:29 → mmos[m] joins (~mmosmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1:8340)
18:59:35 → alex[m]1234567 joins (~alexchete@2001:470:69fc:105::1:1001)
18:59:38 → jchia[m] joins (~jchiamatr@2001:470:69fc:105::c50b)
18:59:38 → sekun[m] joins (~hsekmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::d18f)
18:59:38 → Michal[m] joins (~oomiguelm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5ab0)
18:59:38 → sjanssen joins (~sjanssenm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:61d8)
18:59:38 → craige[m] joins (~craigemcw@2001:470:69fc:105::35f1)
18:59:38 → soft joins (~soft@2001:470:69fc:105::c75)
18:59:39 → justosophy[m] joins (~justosoph@2001:470:69fc:105::572f)
18:59:39 → RosarioPulella[m joins (~rosariopu@2001:470:69fc:105::a57)
18:59:39 → EkaiZend[m] joins (~ekai-zend@2001:470:69fc:105::1:7756)
18:59:39 → wysteriary[m] joins (~wysteriar@2001:470:69fc:105::a42e)
18:59:39 → tripa[m] joins (~tripamatr@2001:470:69fc:105::1:4f7e)
18:59:39 → Morrow[m] joins (~morrowmma@2001:470:69fc:105::1d0)
18:59:40 → Yehoshua joins (~yehoshua@2001:470:69fc:105::1:593f)
18:59:40 → litharn[m] joins (~litharnma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:8336)
18:59:40 → eoiles[m] joins (~eoilesmat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6164)
18:59:40 → cherryblossom[m] joins (~cherryblo@2001:470:69fc:105::b789)
18:59:40 → bb010g joins (~bb010g@2001:470:69fc:105::9a5)
18:59:40 → afotgkmnzj7asv3r joins (~afotgkmnz@2001:470:69fc:105::c24b)
18:59:40 → yehoshuapw joins (~yehoshuap@2001:470:69fc:105::a5f)
18:59:40 → Nate[m] joins (~m52957mat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:591a)
18:59:40 → benjamin[m]123 joins (~benjaminm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:3f2f)
18:59:40 → phuegrvs[m] joins (~phuegrvsm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:65e4)
18:59:40 → octeep[m] joins (~octeepoct@2001:470:69fc:105::1:3dbf)
18:59:41 → oak- joins (~oakuniver@2001:470:69fc:105::fcd)
18:59:41 → nomeata joins (~nomeata@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5ed4)
18:59:42 → throwaaaa[m] joins (~throwaaaa@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6fe6)
18:59:42 → Sixto[m] joins (~provornyc@2001:470:69fc:105::1:74df)
18:59:42 → sofviic[m] joins (~sofviicma@2001:470:69fc:105::1:51fd)
18:59:42 → kalxd[m] joins (~kalxdmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::1:576e)
18:59:42 → jesser[m] joins (~jessermat@2001:470:69fc:105::d5ae)
18:59:42 → codygman[m] joins (~codygman@2001:470:69fc:105::b4ba)
18:59:42 → simmsb joins (~simmsb@2001:470:69fc:105::1:55c3)
18:59:43 → james[m]123 joins (~jamesnina@2001:470:69fc:105::1:4203)
19:00:39 × zer0bitz quits (~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f74d:b800:7d8e:cf48:737f:ec3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:01:12 → ProfSimm joins (~ProfSimm@87.227.196.109)
19:01:23 × Vajb quits (~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3a8-176.dhcp.inet.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:02:44 → zer0bitz joins (~zer0bitz@2001:2003:f74d:b800:50b5:b57f:7251:ce23)
19:04:18 × argento quits (~argent0@168-227-97-34.ptr.westnet.com.ar) (Quit: leaving)
19:05:16 → [_] joins (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
19:05:51 × fef quits (~thedawn@user/thedawn) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
19:06:12 × [itchyjunk] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
19:09:22 × kspalaiologos quits (~kspalaiol@user/kspalaiologos) (Quit: Leaving)
19:10:26 × deadmarshal quits (~deadmarsh@95.38.113.93) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
19:10:55 → Null_A joins (~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:3470:fb13:1e9a:e210)
19:11:28 × Null_A quits (~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:3470:fb13:1e9a:e210) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:12:49 → Null_A joins (~null_a@2601:645:8700:2290:3470:fb13:1e9a:e210)
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19:30:33 <sm> whatif: try cabal repl
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19:31:17 <sm> or cabal exec -- runghc a.hs
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19:37:14 <Guillaum[m]> Is there a way to tell cabal to build a plan will minimizing download/build. e.g. if all the needed packages are already available in my package database, use them.
19:42:07 <maerwald> hmm, I don't think so
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19:46:18 <maerwald> that would require the solver to know about what you have downloaded etc... I don't think it has that information sclv?
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19:51:28 <sm> For reporting program-terminating error messages in IO, I'd like to switch from fail to error, because fail prints "user error" and extra parentheses. Do you see any downside ? Are they equivalent ?
19:51:29 <sm> g'day all
19:51:34 <sm> (I dug through the source but couldn't quite tell)
19:51:38 <sm> maybe they're different kinds of exceptions, and fail's is easier to catch. But that sounds ok.
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19:53:47 <c_wraith> error is a bottom, but fail is different. That can affect the way GHC treats the error condition.
19:54:22 <c_wraith> If you wanted control over the error type as well as its timing, you should use throwIO along with creating an exception of your desired type
19:54:33 <hololeap> Warning: -rtsopts and -with-rtsopts have no effect with -shared. -- why is this?
19:55:08 <hololeap> is it because the RTS is no longer bundled with the executable when you use -shared ?
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20:02:26 <hololeap> I think I found the right section of the GHC docs
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20:03:11 <sm> c_wraith: thanks. I'm not crystal clear but I think in my situation they are effectively equivalent
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20:03:59 <sm> throwIO for better control, that makes sense.
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20:07:59 <hololeap> I'm not finding this in the cabal docs so far. when I run `cabal configure --ghc-options="..."`, it adds `ghc-options:` inside two stanzas: `package *` and `program-options`
20:08:14 <c_wraith> sm: throwIO creates an IO action that throws the exception when it's executed. error creates an expression that throws the exception when it's evaluated. The former is less up to the whims of the optimizer, for instance. IO actions are executed serially
20:08:22 <hololeap> what is this program-options stanza and how does it differ from the other one?
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20:14:24 <sm> nod
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20:51:34 <dminuoso> monochrom: Thank you for your objections. As for the "thunk vs expression" terminology, it's an interesting choice - can people accept with just arbitrary semantics without envisioning some arbitrary specific model of implementation?
20:52:16 <dminuoso> I actively delibered whether to just denominate these as lazy (let's for the sake of discussion also equate lazy and non-strict here) expressions
20:53:28 <dminuoso> Perhaps I should engage more in just talking about semantics, but at the same time giving simplified models of explanation (i.e. equating a specific implementation with the semantics) can be a simpler way to learn something.
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20:54:04 <dminuoso> It's how we teach electrons as balls flying around an atom, something that is provably false.
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20:55:18 <dminuoso> (Which too is precluded by a false dichotomy)
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20:57:27 <dminuoso> As for the "less lazy", that intentionally was a pedagogic simplification. Also, in case you didnt catch it, my version of foldl' is strictly (the pun!) speaking is slightly different in strictness from the original, something I did intentional as explaining a function with a bang pattern is far simpler than `seq` - and the implementation was easy enough to get the gist of it across.
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20:59:20 <dminuoso> I recently started having a lot of discussions with other people as well as my girlfriend, who works as a teacher, about how to properly simplify models in explanations. When do I annotate "this is just a simplification, but", when do I intentionally hide details "planet orbits are circles", or when do I tell blatant lies for simpler world models "electrons fly like balls around atoms"
20:59:52 <dminuoso> Perhaps I should look up on some literature on this, there ought to be a lot of opinions and experiences
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21:18:44 <jackdk> my school chemistry class basically told us we were going to be told a series of less lying lies, but also gave us a guided tour of the major experiments which invalidated each model. I though that was cool
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21:23:00 <ephemient> there's no right answer for everyone. some are going to get stuck on the wrong model, but you're not going to get through to many students without simplifications
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21:24:11 <dminuoso> Sure, I dont think simple models are the point of discussion here.
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21:24:52 <dminuoso> Like a QM professor once put it "a model serves just to make predictions. If these predictions turn out to be true, the model is good - if not the model is not good.
21:25:07 <dminuoso> So you can measure the quality in the number of false predictions.
21:25:28 <lep> is there a way to have cabal tell me the path to an exe it just build?
21:25:41 <monochrom> My first simplification is to commit to lazy evaluation even though the Haskell Report doesn't. My second simplification is I don't need the vocab "thunk". Hell I don't need "closure" either.
21:25:42 <dminuoso> lep: Yes, `cabal list-bin <component-descr>`
21:25:52 <lep> thanks!
21:26:22 <monochrom> http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2021-Summer/03-haskell-evaluation.html is how I teach this stuff.
21:26:42 <dminuoso> monochrom: I think its much simpler in the context of a course, where you can establish terminology and frame the students as you see fit.
21:26:51 <dminuoso> The benefit of being a professor I suppose
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21:29:02 <lep> also can i tell cabal to not create a backup file of cabal.project.local when i change a configuration?
21:29:22 <dminuoso> Else a discussion would have to begin by establishing a particular choice of terminology and some context. Then, under the assumption the discussion partner is able to blindly relinquish themselves of their knowledge and beliefs, adopt yours, you can explain it in that sense.
21:29:31 <lep> i guess i can remove it before calling configure
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21:29:54 <dminuoso> lep: Mmm, calling configure is an odd thing to do in 2022
21:30:17 <lep> ok
21:30:22 <lep> i have no idea of cabal
21:30:35 <lep> i just have a flag which changes the build
21:30:41 <lep> and i want to build both versions
21:31:02 <dminuoso> lep: So I would keep two cabal.project.local files, containing the separate flags
21:31:35 <dminuoso> And then invoke cabal twice with `cabal build --project-file cabal.project.local.flavorA && cabal build --project file cabal.project.local.flavorB`
21:31:54 <dminuoso> If memory serves right, all `cabal configure` does in v2- mode is put out those flags into a cabal.project.local anyway
21:32:07 <lep> nice, thanks agains
21:32:09 <lep> -s
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21:36:22 <lep> so it replaces my project.cabal file? if i just do cabal build --project-file cabal.project.local.flavourA <target> i get an error
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22:03:49 <dminuoso> It rather emits to your cabal.project.local
22:03:58 <dminuoso> Presumably it will backup whatever there is before
22:04:20 <dminuoso> Your cabal.project and cabal.project.local represent the (stateful) build configuration for your project
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22:55:04 <charukiewicz> I'm trying to use pandocCompiler in my Hakyll site and have been fighting it for like an hour just to get it to preserve a target="_blank" tag when compiling <a> tags in an .html file. I've tried using pandocCompilerWith to enable custom readerExtensions/writerExtensions such as Ext_link_attributes which the docs seem to suggest should support passing through all the attributes, but I can't get it to change its behavior of
22:55:04 <charukiewicz> omitting everything other than href, id, and class. Has anyone dealt with this?
22:56:48 <charukiewicz> I'm at a point where I want to use TagSoup to traverse the parsed document and convert a class named "target--_blank" into the target="_blank" attribute, which I know will work, but is a terrible approach.
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23:11:14 <dminuoso> Mmm, decisions decisions.. should I provide a Data instance but hide the data-constructor and only expose a smart constructor?
23:11:24 <dminuoso> Or should I not provide a Data instance?
23:11:28 dminuoso cant decide
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23:16:02 <EvanR> it's great when math and logic do not apply https://i.imgur.com/02hZzOS.png
23:16:50 <dminuoso> EvanR: hah, what is that?
23:16:57 <EvanR> glsl
23:17:26 <dminuoso> Is this implying that creating a can mutate m or n?
23:17:49 <dminuoso> (Or their memory stores, rather?)
23:17:53 <EvanR> no but who the F knows what else can happen xD
23:19:22 <davean> dminuoso: I mean if you add numbers twice, no reason to think they add to the same thing
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23:19:33 <EvanR> ???
23:19:34 <dminuoso> Oh mmm.
23:19:41 <dminuoso> Yeah I see what you're getting at
23:19:54 <EvanR> yeah if you're measuring a piece of lumber for cutting
23:19:58 <EvanR> or using glsl
23:20:05 <hpc> this is well known in ML circles
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23:20:51 <davean> dminuoso: I'm kinda confused why you think they might, thats not how math works.
23:21:11 <davean> I've checked by running the calculations on a GPU
23:21:13 EvanR kicks the sarcasm detector
23:21:58 <hpc> i am 100.00000002% certain that davean is correct here
23:23:45 <EvanR> this is more egregious than I'm used to with floats
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23:28:36 <ephemient> even without talking about the GPU, on x86 CPUs you'll get different results from x87 vs SSE arithmetic, and a compiler could decide to use both…
23:28:59 <davean> ephemient: Well, no, not EXACTLY. You CAN due to precision
23:29:08 <davean> it depends when and how you do register moves
23:29:33 <EvanR> does none of this happen in haskell because every float computation begins and ends in a heap object
23:29:46 <davean> haha, no it CAN happen in Haskell
23:29:54 <davean> Though we dropped x87 I think
23:29:56 <davean> a few versions back
23:30:07 <EvanR> ?_?
23:30:08 <ephemient> well in practice any compilers targeting x86-64 are gonna be using SSE only anyhow
23:30:42 <davean> ephemient: not entirely true
23:30:47 <EvanR> so how much precision does SSE use
23:30:53 <ephemient> I think SSE2 is implemented in all 64-bit processors except for some old atoms?
23:30:56 <davean> 16, 32, or 64 bits
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23:31:16 <davean> But x87 does calculations in 80 bits, and stores and loads in 64 bits
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23:31:56 <davean> ephemient: In practice 80 bit floats are still evailable, you just need to use them right
23:32:28 <EvanR> what do you call a compiler or property of compilation where the nonsense in Example 2 above is not possible
23:32:29 <ephemient> there's also the fact that x86-32 abi used the x87 registers to pass floating point around, but x86-64 abi uses xmm registers
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23:32:48 <davean> ephemient: broken!
23:32:54 <davean> er, that was for EvanR
23:33:00 <EvanR> broken?
23:33:04 <davean> EvanR: Broken!
23:33:05 <ephemient> if everything's already in xmm you have to do extra work to get it over to the x87 fpu
23:33:05 <EvanR> or not-broken
23:33:20 <davean> EvanR: Thats what we call a compiler that gets the same results when it adds the same floats twice
23:33:27 <EvanR> >_>
23:33:57 <davean> Theres some 128bit float support in SSE I think, I've never used it though
23:34:11 <davean> EvanR: The reason x87 does 80 bits is very legitimate
23:34:16 <davean> it just causes problems for high level languages
23:34:21 <EvanR> I don't care about 80 bits
23:34:33 <monochrom> Oh I know! Functional is when a and b are the same. Imperative is when a and b are different. :)
23:34:35 <EvanR> I care about getting the same answer if you do the same thing
23:34:54 <EvanR> use 80 bits or not
23:35:07 <davean> EvanR: you DO get the same answer if you do the same thing, the problem is things like scheduling affect if they're the same thingh
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23:35:20 <EvanR> on paper, they look exactly the same
23:35:27 <EvanR> i don't buy "x does not equal x, sorry"
23:35:43 <ephemient> in two different contexts, they may be optimized differently
23:35:47 <EvanR> depending on compiler, something could have happened between x and x
23:35:51 <davean> EvanR: No, see, they *DON'T* look the same on paper, thats why x87 is 80 bits
23:36:03 <EvanR> this paper
23:36:05 <davean> EvanR: it comes from an engenering precion requirement
23:36:08 <EvanR> a = m + n
23:36:10 <EvanR> b = m + n
23:36:15 <ephemient> or, the compiler might decide to compile them differently even if they're right next to each other, because it decides that's a better use of processor resources
23:36:30 <davean> Your system just makes it basicly impossible to use x87 rigth
23:36:40 <davean> ephemient: yep
23:36:50 <EvanR> alright well, I prefer broken then
23:36:51 <davean> I was just focusing on one side of the weirdness
23:37:07 <davean> EvanR: we all prefer broken
23:37:26 <ephemient> I think we're mostly coming to that conclusion anyhow
23:37:51 <davean> x87 was great in the days of cooperative multiprocessing with your kernels writen in ASM
23:38:10 <davean> now we can afford 128bit floats
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23:38:21 <ephemient> Java 17 killed strictfp (making it the default) so they're definitely not using x87 anymore
23:38:41 <EvanR> I'm not even sure how 80 bits helps two 64bit additions
23:38:57 <EvanR> wouldn't 80 bits only matter in a series of computations that stay 80 bits
23:39:09 <davean> oh and I want to be clear we're talking bfloat here
23:39:34 <ephemient> maybe your inputs come from other computations and have intermediate 80-bit forms
23:39:50 <davean> EvanR: See thats the problem - your entire kernel isn't supposed to leave x87
23:40:09 <davean> its a *coprocessor*
23:40:11 <davean> not an instruction set
23:40:29 <davean> its a *second computer you get answers out of*
23:40:39 <EvanR> the original GPU
23:40:46 <EvanR> DOS can't be pure
23:41:01 <EvanR> there's only 1 math coprocessor
23:41:28 <dminuoso> davean: In shaders, you dont have general assurance of invariance
23:41:44 <dminuoso> Which can lead to one operation being computed differently in different computation units
23:42:17 <EvanR> and different computation units conveniently are all configured with various precisions?
23:42:34 <EvanR> not your dad's parallelism
23:42:40 <davean> dminuoso: No, shaders are all sorts of fucked up - esp because they deal with the SIMT model so your other branches can mess with you
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23:44:10 <dminuoso> EvanR: Sorry a weird typo. Compilation units.
23:44:19 <dminuoso> EvanR: Reason being different optimizations
23:44:40 <EvanR> so why do the different compilation units have different optimizations
23:45:15 <dminuoso> Who knows. Optimizers do all kinds of funky things, maybe there's different levels of information available, different optimization passes that kick in because they spot funky things..
23:45:19 <davean> You can't just use floats without doing your numerical methods
23:45:24 <dminuoso> Noboy can tell you why exactly the GHC simplifier does a particular thing either
23:45:34 <dminuoso> It's a strange interaction from all passes
23:46:48 <SrPx> github.com/kindelia/hvm feedbacks before I announce? :)
23:46:52 <dminuoso> EvanR: And perhaps the GLSL compiler takes advantage of non-invariance, when its free to do "kind of correct" optimizations based on local context
23:47:34 monochrom takes "premature optimization is the root of all evil" and deletes "premature". :)
23:47:38 <EvanR> that's what the section is about, moving computations around as if they are pure, redoing them sometimes, but at different precision
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23:48:16 <EvanR> THAT seems broken
23:49:38 <EvanR> it seems within this context "optimization" doesn't entail "leaving the original behavior intact"
23:50:07 <EvanR> baby with the bathwater would take that and say why not return a black screen every time in the name of performance
23:51:21 <ephemient> in the context of shaders, floating point is only approximately defined. as long as the graphics that come out look close enough
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23:53:09 <monochrom> Yeah "behaviour" allows a margin in this case.
23:53:37 <monochrom> But the margin is not large enough to include black screen.
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23:55:10 <monochrom> People do not want to say "if sometimes you can afford more guard bits so you can be more accurate, don't, we want the original inaccuracy, because reproducible builds".
23:55:11 <EvanR> so in general are you supposed to interpret every float computation as having some noisy envelope around it, as if you're doing physics xD
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23:55:28 <monochrom> I would.
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23:55:38 <EvanR> which seems to defeat the purpose of digital computers
23:56:09 <monochrom> Oh, "noise" "error" are just a simplified model.
23:56:23 <Axman6> I found out the other day that on PPC, long double is implemented as a pair of doubles, giving 106 bits of precision but the same exponent, and this can lead to both subnormal and "supernormal" numbers
23:56:38 <Axman6> The things you learn reading Apple's header files...
23:57:22 <monochrom> The same way tossing a coin is modelled by probability "uncertainty" because I can't be bothered to take measurements and use Newtonian mechanics to determinize it.
23:59:07 <EvanR> also, what about standards
23:59:08 × alx741 quits (~alx741@157.100.197.240) (Quit: alx741)
23:59:15 <monochrom> The same way I don't commit to more than "sorting takes O(n lg n)" because I can't be bothered to look at the exact hardware and calculate that it's exactly 45 n lg n + 3 n - 2 lg n microseconds.
23:59:40 × charukiewicz quits (~charukiew@2600:1702:a90:2750:724d:7bff:fe2b:f560) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:59:53 <monochrom> Right there the unknown constant multiplier and the unknown lower order terms are exactly noise and error.
23:59:54 <EvanR> the standard doesn't really speak in terms of noise or random results

All times are in UTC on 2022-01-30.