Logs on 2022-02-22 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:07:45	<chronon>	Wow, from a quick glance through the scrollback I can see this is where the clever people hang out. My brain melted.
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01:37:58	<pavonia>	One of our mottos is: Haskell – the c stands for "clever"
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01:46:58	<BrokenClutch>	Yeaay, three months doing haskell \o/
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02:06:20	<FernandoChu[m]>	silly question, is there a name for constructors that have been applied to a type variable? like `[a]`, `Maybe b`, etc. Would be nice if that name also included those that have been applied to concrete types as well like `State [a] Int`, `Foo (Maybe b) [String]` etc
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02:07:09	<BrokenClutch>	:FernandoChu Type constructors?
02:07:09	<ski>	what about `Either Int' ?
02:07:41	<ski>	(or `Either e', if you prefer)
02:07:49	<FernandoChu[m]>	ski: isn't that a concrete type?
02:08:12	<FernandoChu[m]>	yeah Either e would be one of those things I'm looking to name
02:08:16	<FernandoChu[m]>	oh wait no
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02:08:31	<FernandoChu[m]>	it's a partiall applied "thing idk it's name"
02:08:39	<FernandoChu[m]>	s/partiall/partially/
02:08:46	<ski>	i tend to call type expressions, having kind `*' (or `Type', if you prefer), "concrete types"
02:09:16	<FernandoChu[m]>	me too, my earlier comment was a mistake
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02:11:35	<FernandoChu[m]>	my question arises because this is what FlexibleContent/Instances seems to apply and I was writing my notes
02:12:01	<FernandoChu[m]>	the wiki calls them "arbitrary types" https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/prime/-/wikis/FlexibleContexts
02:12:25	<FernandoChu[m]>	which I'm not sure I like
02:12:40	<ski>	i think "arbitrary" there just means "no restriction"
02:13:14	<ski>	(or, maybe just with some few specific restrictions)
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02:14:41	<FernandoChu[m]>	so many technical terms I forgot about the natural language interpretation haha
02:14:46	<FernandoChu[m]>	yeah that seems to be the case
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09:19:22	<merijn>	:O
09:19:28	<merijn>	https://twitter.com/GabriellaG439/status/1495957520459915266
09:19:32	<merijn>	That's genius
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09:26:35	<[exa]>	that's wunderbar
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10:04:00	<tomsmeding>	neat
10:04:16	<dminuoso>	Hah that's really something
10:05:10	<tomsmeding>	I wonder how well that scales beyond nice examples though
10:06:22	<tomsmeding>	It's nice to be able to write `sum / length` instead of `lift2 (/) sum length`, but I'd guess that you'd have <20 occurrences of this in an actual codebase
10:06:38	<tomsmeding>	(not saying it's bad: certainly nice to have)
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10:08:09	<[exa]>	I guess it could work for vectors right? "broadcasting" ops over vectors is super useful
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10:12:46	<merijn>	tomsmeding: That's not what it's doing, though
10:12:59	<merijn>	tomsmeding: It's much more efficient than liftA2 too
10:13:25	<merijn>	the liftA2 blows up memory on big, lazy things
10:14:48	<merijn>	sum (or length, whichever is forced first) will materialise the entire thing, then it will stay alive until the other finishes evaluating and then can things be GCed
10:14:53	<merijn>	the fold example is incremental
10:18:03	<tomsmeding>	merijn: note that I wrote lift2, not liftA2
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10:18:13	<tomsmeding>	I know that you'd need a special combinator for folds
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10:32:10	<tomsmeding>	merijn: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/foldl-1.4.12/docs/src/Control.Foldl.html#line-291
10:32:13	<tomsmeding>	it's literally liftA2
10:32:34	<tomsmeding>	(with a well-chosen Applicative instance)
10:34:05	<kuribas>	liftA2 is constant for folds.
10:34:13	<kuribas>	it just operates on the end result.
10:34:13	<tomsmeding>	indeed
10:34:30	<tomsmeding>	I realised that after looking at the Num instance and going "wait, what? Oh, of course"
10:35:23	<tomsmeding>	[exa]: vectors are usually instances of Num precisely for that reason I think
10:35:56	<tomsmeding>	except if intended as linear algebra vectors I guess, then (*) is a bit dodgy perhaps
10:36:26	<dvdrw>	`signum' and `abs' are a bit dubious to pick an implementation for, too
10:36:59	<tomsmeding>	they are for all non-scalar stuff
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10:37:26	<tomsmeding>	matrices, polynomials
10:38:16	<tomsmeding>	hindsight says that perhaps it should have been Ring { (+), (*), (-), negate }, Ring => Num { abs, signum }
10:38:43	<tomsmeding>	though that has the downside of more verbose instance declarations
10:38:55	<geekosaur>	yet another attempt to redesign Num…
10:38:59	<tomsmeding>	:D
10:39:06	<geekosaur>	hackage has several failed attempts already
10:39:29	<tomsmeding>	you know what would be nice? the ability to give instances for a whole tree of type classes compactly in a single clause
10:39:41	<dvdrw>	https://xkcd.com/927/ :)
10:40:01	<tomsmeding>	like, instance Monad Thing where fmap = ... ; pure = ... ; (<*>) = ... ; return = ... ; (>>=) = ...
10:40:09	<tomsmeding>	bad example because this has lots of redundancy as well
10:40:15	<geekosaur>	at some point one has to accept that Num exists for programmer convenience
10:40:33	<tomsmeding>	then you could split up Num in lots of fine-grained classes, without the downside of making instance declarations much more verbose
10:40:38	<dvdrw>	tomsmeding: maybe allow for lower typeclasses to use higher typeclass functions for default implementations?
10:40:45	<tomsmeding>	and less people would have complained about FAM I guess
10:40:47	<geekosaur>	already can
10:41:01	<dminuoso>	dvdrw: that's already perfectly possible.
10:41:05	<geekosaur>	many people backform Applicative instances with <*> = `ap`
10:41:09	<[exa]>	tomsmeding: does it do the fusion though, to avoid making the intermediate vectors? for me the explicit fold there kinda materializes the efficiency expectation there
10:41:15	<dminuoso>	dvdrw: Look how default Generic implementations usually work.
10:41:28	<dminuoso>	(They dont even have to be subclasses, they can be arbitrary classes)
10:41:35	<tomsmeding>	dvdrw: key thing is DefaultSignatures
10:41:46	<tomsmeding>	though of course Functor/Applicative don't do it because legacy
10:41:52	<dvdrw>	huh, didn't know that
10:41:57	<tomsmeding>	[exa]: what's "it" you're referring to?
10:42:10	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Honestly I'd find it detesting if `rg "instance Functor Foo"` wouldn't be fruitful.
10:42:12	<[exa]>	tomsmeding: Num instance for vectors
10:42:20	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: very good point
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10:42:34	<tomsmeding>	[exa]: ah, but fusion is a whole separate problem from operators like these
10:42:48	<merijn>	dvdrw: You can use DefaultSignatures extension for that
10:42:56	<[exa]>	yeah, it looked to me that the fold there could give a nice hint
10:42:58	<tomsmeding>	if a user writes `map (*2) (map (+3) v)`, you probably want fusion as well
10:43:26	<tomsmeding>	so not having easy broadcasting Num operators for your vectors doesn't allow you to ignore fusion :p
10:43:45	<merijn>	dvdrw: basically lets you have a signature and default implementation that is "less general" that the normal type, see: https://github.com/merijn/validated-literals/blob/master/ValidLiterals.hs#L87-L89
10:44:16	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: perhaps what you really want is some editor guidance. Say you let the editor know you want to write `instance Foo Monad`, and it will create a special buffer with `instance Functor where fmap = liftM; instance Applicative where pure = return; (<*>) = liftAP; instance Monad where return = ...; (>>=) = ...;`, and put your cursor directly to the definition of return
10:44:28	<dminuoso>	Or just insert it right into your haskell editor buffer
10:44:35	<dminuoso>	With HLS that should be doable
10:44:56	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: maybe that does most of the job indeed
10:45:59	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: I was thinking of a fragmentation of Num along the lines of this (linearity being irrelevant to the point) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/linear-base-0.1.0/docs/Data-Num-Linear.html
10:46:31	<tomsmeding>	making a new type an instance of the right stuff will be awfully verbose
10:46:58	<dvdrw>	merijn: that's a pretty cool feature
10:47:21	<tomsmeding>	editor support would be nice, but then you slowly degenerate to java-like "let's generate all the code, then it's not bad that everything is hugely boilerplaty"
10:47:28	<dminuoso>	Btw, I wish we had some way to attach metadata to constructors outside the type system.
10:47:35	<tomsmeding>	I'm not saying my multi-instance declaration is the nicest solution either though
10:48:56	<dminuoso>	It would be so neat if I could do something like `data Meta = Meta Int String; data State = Loaded {~ Meta 10 "loaded" ~} \| Fixed {~ Meta 20 "fixed" ~}`
10:49:13	<dminuoso>	With that meta data being accessible in say generics or TH...
10:49:29	<lortabac>	clojure has something similar IIRC
10:50:27	<turlando>	Is there a way to import a data constructor without the record accessor functions?
10:50:41	<dminuoso>	turlando: import Foo (Foo(Foo))
10:50:54	<dminuoso>	Okay, perhaps a bit confusing with the overloaded usage of Foo here..
10:51:05	<dminuoso>	import Mod (TypeCon(DataCon))
10:51:06	<geekosaur>	actually I think no
10:51:15	<turlando>	Yeah, it's confusing and I've tried it but with no luck, let me try harder
10:51:37	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: Mmm, would that give me record accessors regardless?
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10:51:42	<geekosaur>	yes
10:51:47	<dminuoso>	Uh that's surprising
10:51:59	<geekosaur>	this is why 9.2 has an extension to not generate them
10:52:01	<turlando>	nope: Not in scope: data constructor ‘Frame’
10:52:12	<turlando>	with: import Simulator.Frame (Frame(Frame))
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10:52:31	<geekosaur>	hm, that should importboth type and data constructor
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10:52:49	<geekosaur>	(but no control over fields)
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10:53:45	<geekosaur>	actually, I wonder if you could export a bidirectional pattern synonym and not export the datacon itself
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10:54:16	<geekosaur>	you'd need to turn on the extension that lets you say `pattern Foo` in the export list
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10:54:45	<geekosaur>	ExplicitNamespaces
10:54:48	<turlando>	True that, but seems to me a bit of overkill since I need this in a module only so far
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11:00:06	<turlando>	stack clean && stack build did the trick :\
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11:48:37	<dvdrw>	ski: awpr: Church-encoded constrained existential did it :) (Pretty similar to your ForSome)
11:52:51	<ski>	dvdrw : hm ?
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11:54:44	<dvdrw>	ski: `(foldl1 (>>) $ map ftog) :: [exists a. Show a => F a] -> (exists a. Show a => G a)'
11:55:04	<dvdrw>	...that should be a `(.)'
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11:56:54	<ski>	s/=>/*>/
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11:57:39	<dvdrw>	that's because of the existential quantifier?
11:57:47	<ski>	(yes and) no
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11:58:51	<ski>	to consume a value of type `Cxt => T', you have to provide evidence for the constraint `Cxt', and then you can consume the resulting value of type `T'
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11:59:28	<ski>	to produce a value of type `Cxt => T', you get to assume (you will be handed) evidence for the constraint `Cxt', and then you have to produce a value of type `T'
12:00:01	<ski>	to produce a value of type `Cxt *> T', you have to provide evidence for the constraint `Cxt', and then you also have to produce a value of type `T'
12:01:15	<ski>	to consume a value of type `Cxt *> T', you will be provided/handed (you can assume) evidence for the constraint `Cxt', and then you will also be given a value of type `T' to consume
12:01:52	<dvdrw>	ah, I see
12:01:53	<ski>	`Cxt *> T' is to `Cxt => T' what `(U,V) ' is to `U -> V'
12:02:23	<ski>	`*>' is most commonly used directly inside `exists', just like `=>' is most commonly used directly inside `forall'
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12:03:10	<dvdrw>	Do these arrows have a name?
12:03:59	<ski>	here's one way you can simulate `Cxt *> T' : `data CxtWithT = Cxt => WrapCxtWithT T'. or, using `GADTs' syntax, `data CxtWithT where WrapCxtWithT :: Cxt => T -> CxtWithT'
12:05:06	<ski>	(another way to simulate `Cxt *> T' is `forall o. (Cxt => T -> o) -> o'. this is the CPS / Church/Scott encoding)
12:05:57	<dvdrw>	Indeed that's how I've written it for my `ForSome ctx f' type
12:06:41	<dvdrw>	`forall r. (forall a. c a => tag a -> r) -> r'
12:07:35	<dvdrw>	er, ...ctx a...
12:07:49	<ski>	"Do these arrows have a name?" -- not really. the notation `*>' is something i've used for years, in here, to explain this distinction, and to be able to talk about this stuff
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12:08:49	<ski>	although, it seems that the word "provide" may be useful to talk about it
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12:09:30	<ski>	@hoogle Dict
12:09:30	<lambdabot>	Data.Constraint data Dict
12:09:30	<lambdabot>	Data.Constraint Dict :: a => Dict a
12:09:30	<lambdabot>	Data.Vinyl.Core data Dict c a
12:10:27	<ski>	that is `data Dict c = c => Dict', expressing `c > ()'. which is itself one example of using `>', not directly nested inside `exists'
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12:13:31	ski	. o O ( <https://hackage.haskell.org/package/constraints-0.13.3/docs/Data-Constraint.html> )
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12:33:27	<ehammarstrom>	Since this compiles https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3IYPsd1g would this be considered a "proof" that ((g . f) .) = (g .) . (f .)? I guess given that I trust GHC (?)
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12:34:37	<ehammarstrom>	Shoot, forgot to include `f :: Int -> Bool` and `g :: Bool -> Char` in the paste
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12:35:42	<ski>	was just going to ask about those
12:37:07	<ski>	what does `(g . hb) . (f . ha)' have to do with `(g .) . (f .)' ?
12:38:20	<ski>	and you haven't really provided any argument or check that two things are equal, you've just showed that some (separate) stuff type-checks
12:38:21	<ehammarstrom>	ski: I thought of them as "hole a" and "hole b", filling in the missing args
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12:38:42	<ski>	(g .) . (f .)
12:38:51	<ski>	= \h -> ((g .) . (f .)) h
12:38:59	<ski>	= \h -> (g .) ((f .) h)
12:39:07	<ski>	= \h -> g . (f . h)
12:39:40	<ski>	this doesn't seem too related to your `\ha hb -> (g . hb) . (f . ha)'
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12:41:32	<ski>	(anyway, what `forall g f. ((g . f) .) = (g .) . (f .)' is really about is associativity. perhaps one could prove his as a consequence of a free theorem, hmm)
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12:47:18	<ski>	oh, just noticed your comment in the paste said `((g . f) . _) = (g . _) . (f . _)'. it's not too clear what you mean by that (although, you seem to have interpreted `(g . _) . (f . _)' as `(g . hb) . (f . ha)', but then what does those `hb' and `ha' have to do with the `h' that you get when you similarly interpret `((g . f) . _)' as `(g . f) . h' ?) in any case, it would seem to be different from your `((g
12:47:24	<ski>	. f) .) = (g .) . (f .)' above
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13:25:49	<nil>	It is possible to use linear-base's mutable hash map to do something like: for (i in [1..100]) { hm.insert(i, i); print(i); } ?
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13:28:04	<nil>	HashMap's constructors (empty and fromList) require the return types to be `Ur a`, so no `IO`. :-/
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13:32:18	<merijn>	possibly? seems needlesly complicated for something trivially achieved by a fold seems overkill...
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15:29:22	<fendor[m]>	did someone else notice that cabal's test-show-detail is ignored/missing in github actions? I thought `--test-show-details=direct` should always show the output of the test-stream...
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16:54:23	<kronicma1>	hey folks, does anyone know what the proper term is for a freer/operational monad where all Return/Pure and Bind/Impure are defined in the same gadt as the instructions?
16:54:23	<fendor[m]>	I forgot, does dropping support for a ghc version require a major version bump?
16:54:54	<kronicma1>	rather than defining the instructions in a functor and having FFree/Operationl be polymorphic over functors and having Return:: a -> FFree f a and such
16:57:01	<ski>	(s/polymorphic/parametric/)
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16:57:43	<kronicma1>	oops thanks ski
16:58:52	<kronicma1>	i've seen the technique a lot in various haskell and ocaml libraries but not sure if it has it's own name besides freer/operational monads (which are slightly different cause of the separation)
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17:03:18	<ski>	kronicma1 : "deep embedding" of eDSL might be slightly relevant
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17:04:07	<ski>	(note that if you want it to be a monad, then it really should be an abstract data type (so that you can simulate the appropriate quotient of the representation data structure))
17:05:08	<ski>	(an alternative is to fuse `Bind' with the primitive operations. or possibly to go CPS, which is close)
17:06:28	<turlando>	I've a question about style/architecture. I'm implementing a discrete event simulator. Right now I ask the user to implement a function that takes the current state, an incoming event to produce the resulting state. I have a function that folds over the events with the state transition function to produce the final result. So far so good. Now I want the user to be able to schedule or unschedule events from within the state transition function and I'm
17:06:28	<turlando>	not sure what's the cleanest approach. I'm thinking of changing the state transition function so that it gets an "environment" (state + future events) and produces an "environment", coupling it with functions to manipulate it to schedule events and updating the state. What do you think?
17:07:14	<lyxia>	kronicma1: isn't that Fix (for example in data-fix)
17:07:38	<ski>	i think kronicma1 also wanted the recursion baked in
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17:11:47	<kronicma1>	lyxia, I don't think that's it
17:11:56	<kronicma1>	Here's an example of what I'm talking about: https://github.com/s-zeng/haskell-monads-showcase/blob/master/app/DiskFS.hs#L223
17:12:09	<c_wraith>	turlando: from the point of view of your interface, isn't that all just a state?
17:12:34	<c_wraith>	turlando: like, why does it need to change at all to accommodate that use pattern?
17:12:36	<kronicma1>	You can see how it has the bind and pure baked in rather than the normal operational/ffree way of separating those two off into a different gadt
17:13:17	<lyxia>	I see, yeah Fix still keeps the "Bind" separate.
17:13:40	<ski>	BindTryCreateFile :: String -> String -> Simulator a -> Simulator a -- &c.
17:14:16	<turlando>	c_wraith because the "client" right now has no notion of the event list (which is an opaque type being a priority lists of client-defined events)
17:15:22	<lyxia>	I don't think it has a dedicated name, IMO it's still the free/operational monad approach even if you don't get a standalone type to give it the same name.
17:15:25	<ski>	BindTryCreateFile f s c >>= k = BindTryCreateFile f s (c >>= k)
17:15:49	<ski>	tryCreateFile f s = BindTryCreateFile f s (Return ())
17:16:21	<ski>	(s/Return/Pure/, i suppose)
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17:17:42	<ski>	but you could also go `newtype Simulator a = MkSimulator ((a -> Action) -> Action)', where `data Action = TryCreateFile String String Action \| ...', which is the CPS
17:17:59	<c_wraith>	turlando: ah. I think I'd need to see a much more detailed breakdown to really understand. But I can think of a few different directions you could go, like using a sort of Has-pattern for the state, or registering clients with an update function that lets them operate only on portions of the total state. There are a lot of other options available as well, depending on details
17:18:25	<ski>	(you could include a `Result r' alternative in `Action r', and do `forall r. (a -> Action r) -> Action r', if you wanted to be able to export a final result)
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17:21:48	<turlando>	c_wraith thank you, but there might be a misunderstanding: I call "clients" what is using the interface, namely just a typeclass as of now. So I'm not sure about the registering thing
17:22:16	turlando	is ski is talking to me
17:22:26	<turlando>	s/is/is not sure/
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17:23:35	<ski>	turlando : i was in the kronicma1 conversation
17:23:49	ski	calls the `/me' police
17:24:22	<turlando>	Sorry, the 'Simulator a' caught my attention
17:24:42	<ski>	nw. it was in the example kronicma1 linked to
17:25:01	<ski>	(also, i'm not sure what you mean by "unschedule events")
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17:26:36	<turlando>	Just removing an event from the future event list, actually I'm not even sure it has an use case, I'm more interested in the scheduling part
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17:27:22	<c_wraith>	I think you're making things too complicated by thinking of it as something outside of the state
17:27:34	<c_wraith>	It is quite literally part of the state
17:28:02	<ski>	at least it could be
17:28:30	<turlando>	So you suggest to make it part of non-user-defined state, right?
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17:28:58	<c_wraith>	Well, make part of the state user-defined
17:30:04	<c_wraith>	But really, this whole thing needs code - at least type signatures. That would make the conversation a lot more useful.
17:30:28	<c_wraith>	Maybe you want a data type like Mealy which closes over local state.
17:30:50	<c_wraith>	Maybe you want the global state augmented
17:31:20	<c_wraith>	There are just too many degrees of freedom in text.
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17:33:55	<turlando>	I can show you part of the thing. For instance the simulation interface https://github.com/turlando/discrete-event-simulator/blob/master/src/Simulator.hs#L12-L17
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17:35:39	<ski>	oh, you also had something called `Simulator' there :)
17:35:47	<ski>	(er, `Simulation')
17:35:50	<turlando>	:)
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17:36:06	<turlando>	Here is an example "client" https://github.com/turlando/discrete-event-simulator/blob/master/src/Simulator/Example/Server.hs
17:36:30	<turlando>	(just simulating a single threaded server, again, confusing naming)
17:37:56	<ski>	oh, `CalendarEvent event' is a type synonym
17:38:10	<ski>	(or family, i guess ?)
17:38:39	<ski>	incorrect `Show' instances detected
17:38:46	<turlando>	Yes, consisting of the discrete time instant and the user-defined event. And they're collected into a Calendar type, which is basically a priority list
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17:39:09	<turlando>	(the calendar is the future event list I mentioned above)
17:39:58	<turlando>	So yeah, I'm not sure what's the most idiomatic way to implement adding new events from within the transition function or if it's a good idea at all
17:40:42	<c_wraith>	ok, so after reviewing most of the code there - why is Simulation a class at all?
17:41:39	<ski>	turlando : do you have multiple instances of `Simulator' ? do you have any operations which are polymorphic over `Simulator' instances ?
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17:42:01	<c_wraith>	yeah, the same question ski has. :)
17:42:10	<ski>	turlando : anyway, please don't abuse `Show' for custom pretty-printing
17:42:17	<turlando>	The run function in the Simulator module is polymorphic over Simulation
17:43:03	<c_wraith>	But why is it a class?
17:43:15	<turlando>	ski sorry, as you can see it's a quick and dirty thing as of now, I want to fix it when I get the Simulator design right, it just use that show to print the result in a eye-scanning-friendly manner
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17:43:25	<ski>	could `Simulation' be a record ?
17:44:15	<turlando>	Why do you suggest to change it to a record?
17:44:19	<ski>	turlando : well, from that response, hopefully you're at least aware that you're not supposed to use `Show' like that (although perhaps not aware of why)
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17:45:06	<c_wraith>	because classes tie behavior to types. You can't change behavior without changing types. With a record of functions, you can change behavior without changing types.
17:45:39	<ski>	(or, if you don't really need multiple instances at all, you could directly use the implementation (or maybe use something like Backpack, which would give another way to swap out different implementations, although at compile-time))
17:46:03	<c_wraith>	If you keep going in that direction, you eventually end up with a type kind of like Mealy. Or maybe Fold.
17:46:06	<ski>	what c_wraith just said can be a pro, as well as a con, depending on what you're after
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17:48:18	<turlando>	First of all, thank you a lot for the effort you're putting into this. Secondly, I'm not sure I'm understanding everything. Could you elaborate a bit more the "change behavior without changing types" thing please?
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17:50:05	<turlando>	The Server's State and Event are supposed to have a single behavior over the simulation, so I thought a class would be a good fit so that I also handling the "running" bits externally, but I think I'm missing the point
17:50:19	<turlando>	s/I also/I also can/
17:50:28	<turlando>	s/handling/handle/
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17:51:24	<romesrf>	hello, I'm running quickcheck with tasty but I don't get the falsifiable counter example
17:51:35	<romesrf>	*** Failed! Falsified (after 1 test):
17:51:37	<romesrf>	Use --quickcheck-replay=805757 to reproduce.
17:52:04	<romesrf>	I'm using cabal, how would I run the tests and output the counter example?
17:52:44	<romesrf>	I've also seen --quickcheck-verbose mentioned online -- but I don't know where to pass the flags
17:52:46	<sclv>	you can run the test executable directly.
17:52:59	<sclv>	its under dist-newstyle and the "list-bin" command will find it
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17:54:06	<romesrf>	Just did, but unfortunately I still get no counter example
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17:54:51	<romesrf>	the test is Gen Bool, and I'm using Test.Tasty.Quickcheck.testProperty
17:55:38	<sclv>	running it directly lets you pass the flags more easily, is why i suggested
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17:56:09	<romesrf>	oh!
17:56:20	<c_wraith>	turlando: can you imagine ever wanting to transform an existing Simulation? like say... filterEvents :: (event -> Bool) -> Simulation state event result -> Simulation state event result
17:56:23	<romesrf>	thank you :)
17:56:28	<sclv>	you can even run it with --help to get a pretty good listing of what the options are
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17:56:40	<romesrf>	sclv: that did it, ty
17:56:51	<ProfSimm>	Why have both do notation and >>
17:57:15	<ski>	turlando : if you have `run :: Simulation state event result -> state -> Calendar event -> (result,[Frame state event])', using `data Simulation state event result = MkSimulation {transition :: state -> CalendarEvent event -> state,result :: [Frame state event] -> result}', then you can pass different records of type `Simulation State Event Result' to `run', without having to change to different state,
17:57:21	<ski>	event, or result types
17:57:31	<c_wraith>	ProfSimm: sometimes it's easier to not have a lot have a lot of nested infix applications
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17:58:04	<ski>	(whether that would be desirable or not is a different question)
17:58:04	<ProfSimm>	c_wraith: if we wrap do {} around >> application and replace >> with ; it's the same source
17:58:14	<c_wraith>	ProfSimm: also, do notation adds sugar for more than (>>)
17:58:30	<ProfSimm>	Does it
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17:59:06	<c_wraith>	:t \f mx my -> do { x <- mx ; y <- my ; f x y } -- ProfSimm
17:59:07	<lambdabot>	Monad m => (t1 -> t2 -> m b) -> m t1 -> m t2 -> m b
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17:59:27	<dolio>	@undo do { x ; y ; z }
17:59:27	<lambdabot>	x >> y >> z
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17:59:44	<ski>	@undo do { x <- mx ; y <- my ; f x y }
17:59:44	<lambdabot>	mx >>= \ x -> my >>= \ y -> f x y
17:59:54	<ProfSimm>	Thanks
18:00:06	<c_wraith>	ProfSimm: also, that assertion isn't true the instant any of your statements involve infix operators with lower precedence than (>>)
18:00:38	<ski>	@undo do {x <- mx; let {y = ey}; Just z <- mz; f x y z}
18:00:39	<lambdabot>	mx >>= \ x -> let { y = ey} in mz >>= \ a -> case a of { Just z -> f x y z; _ -> fail ""}
18:01:05	<turlando>	c_wraith: no, but I might need to run the simulation with different conditions (e.g. terminate at a given Instant)
18:01:38	<ski>	@undo [f x y z \| x <- xs,let y = e,Just z <- mzs,p x y z]
18:01:38	<lambdabot>	concatMap (\ x -> let { y = e} in concatMap (\ a -> case a of { Just z -> if p x y z then [f x y z] else []; _ -> []}) mzs) xs
18:01:47	<turlando>	ski: I'm tryinf to figure out the implications of that
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18:02:14	<ski>	turlando : well, you lose the "unique-implementation-per-type", and also the ability to have FDs
18:03:35	<turlando>	I'm not sure it's a great loss, but from what I imagine, it makes sense to only have a single implementation per (State, Event, Result) triplet. I'm trying to imagine when it might not be the case
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18:07:04	<ski>	i guess we're still also wondering if you have multiple instances of `Simulation' in mind at all
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18:09:26	<turlando>	ski: yes in the sense that in the same codebase I might implement different simulations and no in the sense that usually you're using a single simulation at any given moment
18:09:33	<turlando>	Not sure if it answers the question though
18:10:35	<ski>	and you'd want to share code (more than `run') that's polymorphic over that ?
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18:14:33	<turlando>	Right now as an example I can definitely think of another function: runUntil that takes an upper bound Instant
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18:15:25	<turlando>	(I'm not trying to justify my design choises, I'm trying to understand what is wrong and why)
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18:18:51	<ski>	well .. i'm not sure there needs to be something wrong with your design. however, newbies to type classes (expecially if they have prior exposure to OO) tend to often misuse (and overuse) them
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18:19:48	<ski>	@where existential-antipattern
18:19:49	<lambdabot>	"Haskell Antipattern: Existential Typeclass" by Luke Palmer at <http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/haskell-antipattern-existential-typeclass/>
18:20:07	<ski>	is somewhat related (though a more advanced example of misuse/overuse)
18:20:18	<ski>	(not that there's anything wrong with existentials, per se)
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18:23:21	<turlando>	Thank you a lot ski, I will read it now. Do you think that choosing typelcasses over records can have implications on how I can implement the missing feature I was talking about before, namely scheduling new events from within the simulation?
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18:24:45	<dolio>	Personally, I think that article is over-cited. But I haven't been paying close attention to what's being done in this case.
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18:26:56	<ehammarstrom>	ski: Regarding the ((g . f) . _) = (g . _) . (f . _) earlier, a haskell program that reduces both of them to the same type (without executing it) isn't that a proof of some equality? Or would I have to explicitly have an "equality"-check in the type level? Here's the paste for reference: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Fa1LgtV7
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18:34:04	<ski>	turlando : the existential thing was mostly an aside. you're not doing anything existential, that i can see
18:34:45	<ski>	turlando : it's still unclear to me what you want from this new event scheduling, how you want to structure it
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18:37:25	<ski>	ehammarstrom : `False' and `True' have the same type, but are not equal. perhaps you could argue something from free theorems / parametricity, though. however, your `hb' is irrelevant (a misunderstanding)
18:39:10	<turlando>	ski: honestly, I have no idea other than what I proposed before (changing the state transition function so that it gets an "environment" (state + future events) and produces an "environment", coupling it with functions to manipulate it to schedule events and updating the state) or changing the state transition function adding another parameter (the calendar) and making it return (newstate, newcalendar)
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18:43:18	<ski>	where do these "future events" come from ?
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18:44:23	<turlando>	ski: either from a user defined list or from a randomly generated one, in both cases they end up in the Calendar type
18:45:30	<ski>	but they could also come from transitions on earlier events scheduling more events ?
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18:46:12	<ski>	do you want the transition for an event to be able to see other (presumably only future ?) events ? change (e.g. remove) them ?
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18:51:35	<turlando>	ski: Sorry for not mentioning it in my previous message, I was just referring to the current state of the code. Yes, an event might be depending on another event, and specifically the happening of a certain event might cause the scheduling of another event in the future. E.g. a system detects a failing component and schedules the replacement of it in the future. Regarding your last question: I'm not sure if I want the transition to be able to see future
18:51:35	<turlando>	events; it might be handy but I don't have an use case for it right now. Regarding removing events: initially I didn't want to permit it, but since I allow to add new events, it might make sense to allow the removal too
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18:57:31	<maerwald>	anyone ever used Database.PostgreSQL.Simple.Notification successfully?
18:57:47	<ski>	it seems to me it's probably be easier to reason about the event scheduling, if they can't see (or even change/retract) other scheduled events
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18:58:24	<ski>	(just because you can add doesn't mean it would have to make sense to remove, imho)
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18:58:48	ski	was reminded of simulators for VHDL
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18:59:27	<turlando>	ski: I just noticed another problem: if the scheduling of a dependent event is randomic, as in I might need to sample from a random distribution, the transition function might depend on the Random monad (?), and my signature no longer works
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19:06:50	<ski>	(i guess i was thinking, "an event might be depending on another event", depending in the sense of another event scheduling it, or in the sense of the transition of the first event depending on whether it can see the other event being scheduled)
19:07:27	<ski>	.. so, i'm still not sure what you intend by "dependent event"
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19:27:44	<turlando>	As you said ski: "depending in the sense of another event scheduling it"
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19:29:48	<Zemyla>	turlando: Can you use the IO monad and a RandomGen IOVar?
19:31:22	<turlando>	Zemyla why an IOVar?
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20:04:07	<ProfSimm>	Isn't it a flaw to allow a Map to be converted toList, when it's not a list
20:04:24	<ProfSimm>	Makes all types kinda blurry in terms of semantics
20:04:27	<dolio>	Why?
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20:04:42	<ProfSimm>	dolio: well what's the order of items in a map
20:05:06	<dolio>	For Data.Map, it's the ordering on the keys.
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20:05:51	<ProfSimm>	dolio: what is that ordering
20:05:55	<monochrom>	Is it also a flaw to convert Maybe to list?
20:06:15	<ProfSimm>	monochrom: well it is a list
20:06:18	<dolio>	It's what's defined in the Ord type class that most Data.Map functions depend on.
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20:07:35	<byorgey>	ProfSimm: Data.Map is an ordered map, just like e.g. TreeMap in Java, if you're familiar with that
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20:08:05	<ProfSimm>	So what is an unordered map
20:08:28	<ProfSimm>	I mean OMap is ordered, I thought.
20:08:31	<ProfSimm>	Data.Map.Ordered
20:08:35	<byorgey>	I would have some sympathy for the argument that you should not be able to convert e.g. a HashMap to a list, though in practice I think it is fine as long as the documentation says "you cannot rely on the order of the elements in the resulting list"
20:09:03	<ProfSimm>	byorgey: "you should not rely on [feature that exists]" famous last words :P
20:09:11	<byorgey>	ProfSimm: I know =)
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20:09:23	<byorgey>	I hadn't heard of Data.Map.Ordered before, but it looks like it's keeping track of the order in which things were inserted
20:09:35	<ProfSimm>	byorgey: yes, well it's some order I guess
20:09:40	<monochrom>	I haven't seen anyone relying on HashMap's toList order.
20:09:50	<ProfSimm>	monochrom: it's not always intentional
20:10:24	<ProfSimm>	monochrom: imagine you map the keys to something that creates duplicates and you overwrite on name collision. So now you accidentally depend on the order of toList
20:10:25	<monochrom>	No, I haven't seen anyone doing that accidentally either.
20:10:37	<ProfSimm>	Well I just provided an example
20:11:07	<ProfSimm>	monochrom: in JS, object iteration had no specific order.
20:11:21	<ProfSimm>	monochrom: no one therefore relied on it and all was fine.
20:11:40	<ProfSimm>	monochrom: Just kidding, it caused bunch of hard to debug issues in bunch of software, so the spec was updated to maintain specific order
20:12:09	<monochrom>	I'm talking about the Haskell community, not the JS community.
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20:12:56	<dolio>	What does the example even mean?
20:12:58	<ProfSimm>	Sure, but let's not pretend Haskellers are some kind of infallible beings who at every step of their program think "wait, this came from a map like 10 000 lines ago, so I must ensure this code is order invariant"
20:13:10	<maerwald>	people rely on bugs. All the time
20:13:21	<ProfSimm>	Also.
20:13:37	<maerwald>	Software doesn't easily allow to distinguish bugs and features
20:13:40	<ProfSimm>	monochrom: if there was no specific order in toList, it'd mean it's not deterministic
20:13:51	<ProfSimm>	maerwald: absolutely
20:14:03	<polyphem>	is Maps toList a natural transformation as a mapping between Functors Map k v -> [(k,v)] ? It also not only transforms the Functor (Map v) to [] but also the contents v to (k,v) ?
20:14:19	<maerwald>	and in Haskell we have this odd notion of API that relates mainly to types and not behavior (or even laws)
20:14:52	<maerwald>	so your bugfix is PVP compliant, but you still cause a backend on the other end of the world to crash
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20:17:07	<geekosaur>	https://xkcd.com/1172/
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20:19:08	<byorgey>	polyphem: Data.Map.toList is a natural transformation from Map k -> ([] . (k,)), yes (I know '.' is not actually legal syntax for composition of type constructors)
20:19:20	<byorgey>	polyphem: I don't know what your second question means though
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20:21:41	<monochrom>	I think the second question is answered by "Map k -> ([] . (k,))" too.
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20:22:37	<polyphem>	byorgey: ok , nvm , i was wondering if its still a natural composition if it also modifies the type inside the functor , but you restated it as : Compose [] (k,)
20:23:10	<polyphem>	s/natural composition/natural transformation/
20:25:52	<monochrom>	BTW I had been procrastinating learning horizontal composition of two natural transformations until a few days ago. I had not felt like I needed to know.
20:26:42	<monochrom>	Then a few days ago I was learning monad morphisms. Naturally, a natural transformation that furthermore "preserves return" and "preserves join".
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20:27:35	<monochrom>	I finally realized that just to state "preserves join" I need the horizontal composition of join and join. :)
20:27:45	<byorgey>	=D
20:29:19	<polyphem>	monochrom: the tongue keeps playing where the tooth hurts :)
20:29:43	<ski>	@type \fk fv -> M.mapKeysMonotonic fk . M.map fv
20:29:44	<lambdabot>	(k1 -> k2) -> (a1 -> a2) -> M.Map k1 a1 -> M.Map k2 a2
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20:29:48	<ski>	@type \fk fv -> M.mapKeysWith (<>) fk . M.map fv
20:29:50	<lambdabot>	(Ord k2, Semigroup a1) => (k1 -> k2) -> (a2 -> a1) -> M.Map k1 a2 -> M.Map k2 a1
20:29:53	<ski>	@type \ks fk fv m -> M.fromList [(k,fv v) \| k <- ks,Just v <- [m M.!? (fk k)]]
20:29:54	<lambdabot>	(Ord k1, Ord k2) => [k1] -> (k1 -> k2) -> (t -> a) -> M.Map k2 t -> M.Map k1 a
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20:30:41	<polyphem>	ski: barely not flooding :)
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20:31:01	ski	glances around nervously
20:31:50	ski	still can never recall which is the horizontal and which is the vertical one
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20:35:19	<monochrom>	Heh a lot of "left, right", "horizontal, vertical" namings in category theory were very accidental and arbitrary.
20:35:54	<monochrom>	Comparing to particle physics. The "top" quark is much heavier than the "bottom" quark. Ah, no wonder why they are so unstable. >:)
20:36:03	<monochrom>	s/Comparing/Comparable/
20:36:49	<ski>	ok, "vertical composition" is "composition", and "horizontal composition" is "lifted composition" (i'm sure i'll quickly forget this again)
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20:37:04	<ski>	(yea, i don't like the "left adjoint","right adjoint" naming, either)
20:37:55	<byorgey>	I just remember the picture with two parallel morphisms going from left to right, and a natural transformation as an arrow going from the top morphism to the bottom. Then vertical and horizontal composition correspond to putting those cells next to each other vertically or horizontally.
20:38:05	<byorgey>	Of course that's yet another thing to remember, but somehow I find it easier
20:38:22	<monochrom>	Left adjoint is at least mnemonicable by "Hom(F x, y)" ooohhh F is on the left.
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20:38:37	<monochrom>	Now, left and right Kan extensions, I still haven't figured out how.
20:38:58	<ski>	except if you get into the habit of writing `A <---< F B'
20:39:11	<monochrom>	Yikes haha.
20:39:17	<ski>	(i do that, fairly often)
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20:39:42	<monochrom>	How would you like "source adjoint" and "target adjoint"?
20:39:58	<ski>	might work
20:40:21	<ski>	(i'm already using "pre-inverse" and "post-inverse", rather that "left-inverse" and "right-inverse")
20:40:24	<polyphem>	ski: isn't your third function Profunctor dimap
20:40:35	<ski>	polyphem : something like that
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20:41:10	<ski>	polyphem : my lambdabot queries were basically questions "do you want co- or contra- variance in the keys ? are the key types ordered ? are the value types semigroups ?"
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20:42:58	<ski>	("are the key types ordered ?" implicitly suggests "are the key mappings order morphisms ?")
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20:47:03	<ProfSimm>	Can I make a map which is NOT iterable by design
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20:47:51	<monochrom>	Sure.
20:48:00	<ski>	monochrom : right Kan extension is `G . F >---> H' iff `G >---> H <- F' (or `H / F'). left Kan extension is `H >---> G . F' iff `H /\| F >---> G'. so, they're right and left adjoints of `(. F)' (precomposition)
20:49:23	<monochrom>	Ah, yeah, I need to spend more time on that connection.
20:49:40	<ski>	(or with more traditional notation, `Ran_F H' resp. `Lan_F H')
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20:57:20	<ski>	given `phi :: forall a. G (F a) -> H a', we (via CoYoneda) get `stage phi :: forall b. G b -> Ran F H b', where `Ran F H b' is `forall a. (b -> F a) -> H a'
20:58:07	<ski>	similarly, given `psi :: forall a. H a -> G (F a)', we (via Yoneda) get `costage psi :: forall b. Lan F H b -> G b', where `Lan F H b' is `exists a. (H a,F a -> b)'
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21:13:09	<EvanR>	ProfSimm, I assume by design means implementation rather than interface. Since you can present whatever interface to your ADT
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21:13:45	<EvanR>	to construct something intentionally omitting a feature seems unusual though xD
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21:35:50	<freeman42x[m]>	any good solution for `data X = A { x :: Int } \| B { x :: Int, y :: Char }` and running `y (A 3)` compiling but throwing at runtime? I was told to avoid using records at all and write manual lenses for them but that seems a bad compromise
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21:47:59	<dolio>	Can't the appropriate optics be generated? Lens for x, traversal for y.
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21:55:07	<ski>	newtype Map k v = MkMap (k -> Maybe v) -- not iterable
21:55:45	<ski>	(cue covariant vs. contravariant powerset functor)
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22:07:54	<freeman42x[m]>	<dolio> "Can't the appropriate optics..." <- to generate them you need to keep the records, doesn't it? and keeping the records allows others to misuse them in the way mentioned
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22:13:32	<dolio>	Turn off the field accessors and use the optics.
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22:19:34	<freeman42x[m]>	<dolio> "Turn off the field accessors and..." <- how do you achieve that?
22:21:52	<dolio>	NoFieldSelectors language setting, I think.
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22:38:17	<gentauro>	how can I refactor this? `((\foo -> concat <$> foo) . mergeValues . concat)`. The `foo` part …
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22:38:46	<dolio>	fmap concat . mergeValues . concat
22:38:56	<ski>	dang, beat me to it :)
22:39:14	<monochrom>	I was dense and thought of section syntax only.
22:39:43	<ski>	gentauro> :t mergeValues
22:40:02	<gentauro>	dolio: thx
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22:45:16	<freeman42x[m]>	<dolio> "NoFieldSelectors language..." <- that extension seems to have been merged but in the proposal it says: "Enabling this extension will beak Template Haskell which assumes the presence of a field selector." won't that prevent generating lenses via TH?
22:45:43	<dolio>	Dunno.
22:47:29	<dolio>	In the past, when you generate lenses, the field names would be like `_field`. And then the fact that someone might be able to write something that throws an exception by using the weird field accessors isn't really worth worrying about.
22:47:42	<dvdrw>	it sounds like it'll lift your code into undefined behaviour :)
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22:48:00	<gentauro>	ski: I will soon release the code as "open source" so you will have plenty of time to "review it" (which will be very much appreciated)
22:48:03	<gentauro>	:)
22:48:10	<geekosaur>	doesn't that extension go along with others that mroe or less replace generating accessors via TH?
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22:49:13	<ski>	gentauro : just wondering if one or both of those `concat's could be elided
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22:53:18	<gentauro>	ski: the complete line is: `fmap concat . mergeValues . concat <$> mapM (mapConcurrently aux) (chunksOf chk mids)`. I was guessing that I perhaps could use some `concatMap`?
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23:03:23	<ski>	well, there is some
23:03:25	<ski>	@hoogle concatMapM
23:03:26	<lambdabot>	Data.Vector.Fusion.Bundle.Monadic concatMapM :: Monad m => (a -> m (Bundle m v b)) -> Bundle m v a -> Bundle m v b
23:03:26	<lambdabot>	Data.Vector.Fusion.Stream.Monadic concatMapM :: Monad m => (a -> m (Stream m b)) -> Stream m a -> Stream m b
23:03:26	<lambdabot>	Data.Conduit.Combinators concatMapM :: (Monad m, MonoFoldable mono) => (a -> m mono) -> ConduitT a (Element mono) m ()
23:03:31	<ski>	@hoogle+
23:03:31	<lambdabot>	Data.Conduit.List concatMapM :: Monad m => (a -> m [b]) -> ConduitT a b m ()
23:03:32	<lambdabot>	Control.Monad.Extra concatMapM :: Monad m => (a -> m [b]) -> [a] -> m [b]
23:03:32	<lambdabot>	Extra concatMapM :: Monad m => (a -> m [b]) -> [a] -> m [b]
23:03:46	<ski>	(apparently also `GHC.Utils.Monad')
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23:06:01	<ski>	(and apparently the one in `Control.Monad.Extra' is not simply `(liftM concat .) . mapM', but is a `foldr' that checks if the current list (to prepend) is empty, avoiding the `liftM' in that case)
23:06:17	<ski>	but i was wondering if you could fuse the other `concat' with `mergeValues', possibly
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23:30:41	<dons>	moin moin
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23:31:10	<Zemyla>	I wish IntSet had a complement command.
23:33:02	<byorgey>	hey dons
23:33:18	<dsal>	Zemyla: You want a set of all integers?
23:33:25	<byorgey>	Zemyla: you mean e.g. if it stored a Bool saying whether it was complemented or not?
23:33:42	<byorgey>	I assume you would not want to literally store an IntSet of all Int values not in the original set
23:33:46	<Zemyla>	No, I was thinking about storing the members of the set as a list of intervals.
23:34:03	<byorgey>	Oh, a list of intervals, I see
23:34:46	<byorgey>	That would be nifty. Getting the details right re: union, intersection, etc. would be the tricky part I assume. But you should write it. =)
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23:37:09	<Zemyla>	Also, I should make Text.Parser.Permutation.Permutation an Applicative.
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