Logs on 2022-02-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:39 | <ski> | `forall f. Functor f => forall a. f a -> Free f a' (Yoneda) `forall m f. (Monad m,Functor f) => (forall a. Free f a -> m a) -> (forall a. f a -> m a)' |
| 00:00:42 | <ski> | (i think) |
| 00:01:30 | <monochrom> | Ah, I'll have to think about that. |
| 00:01:42 | <monochrom> | Damn this Yoneda lemma popping up everywhere. |
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| 00:02:24 | <ski> | hm .. yea, like going from a linear transformation (from a based/free vector space) to the column vectors of its associated matrix |
| 00:02:36 | <monochrom> | The equivalence between adjunctions defined by the transposes and adjunctions defined by the unit-counit pair is also Yoneda striking again. |
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| 00:04:20 | <monochrom> | I guess basically every time I see "foo = bar id" I should recall "OK so Yoneda told you so" :) |
| 00:04:48 | <ski> | hm .. perhaps it is. (the natural isomorphism between Homs was always easiest to grasp for me. and the "universal morphisms" the hardest) |
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| 00:06:42 | <ski> | `P e <=> let x = e in P x' is sortof a low-resolution (and undirected) version of Yoneda/Coyoneda |
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| 00:14:48 | <ski> | the upper closure `<>^+ P' ("possibly/occurred `P'") of `P' is defined by `<>^+ P y <=> exists x | x =< y. P x'. the upper interior `[]^+ P' ("necessarily/henceforth `P'") is defined by `[]^+ P x <=> forall y | x =< y. P y' |
| 00:16:10 | <ski> | if `P' is upper (closed) (aka monotone / increasing / order-preserving), it is equal to its (upper) closure and interior, and hence `P y <=> exists x | x =< y. P x' and `P y <=> forall y | x =< y. P y'. which are basically Coyoneda and Yoneda |
| 00:17:04 | <ski> | (er, should be `P x <=> ..x..' in the last one) |
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| 00:24:56 | <ski> | (expressing Kan extensions in terms of ends & coends (`forall' and `exists' on difunctors), you'd use powers and copowers, with the exponent/scalar being the relevant Hom. `(H <- F) b = Ran F H b = forall a. H a ^ (F a <---< b)' resp. `(H /| F) b = Lan F H b = exists a. H a * (a >---> F b)') |
| 00:26:25 | <ski> | @type concatMap :: (a -> [b]) -> ([a] -> [b]) -- is basically Yoneda on `concat :: [[a]] -> [b]', btw |
| 00:26:26 | <lambdabot> | (a -> [b]) -> [a] -> [b] |
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| 00:32:51 | <monochrom> | join p = (p >>=) id :( |
| 00:33:39 | <ski> | yep |
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| 05:34:22 | <gentauro> | "pseudo-science" -> https://greenlab.di.uminho.pt/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/sleFinal.pdf |
| 05:34:25 | <gentauro> | :| |
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| 08:30:32 | <polezaivsani> | Somebody, please, enlighten me - when evaluating x `seq` f x (or the results of the seq, i'm not sure), x becomes gets evaluated to WHNF, but i'm a bit lost as to why it the case for both instances of x in the expression. As if x has been memoized. What am i missing? |
| 08:32:42 | <davean> | Theres only one x |
| 08:32:55 | <davean> | There is no second x |
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| 08:32:59 | <ski> | both occurances of `x' refer to the same computation. with lazy evaluation, the result of this computation is cached/shared |
| 08:33:17 | <ski> | consider this definition |
| 08:33:23 | <ski> | square x = x * x |
| 08:33:44 | <ski> | now, assume that you're computing `square (2 + 3)' |
| 08:34:09 | <polezaivsani> | do i have to have a putr language in order to easily make such assumptions? |
| 08:34:14 | <ski> | naïvely (using call-by-name evaluation/reduction), you'd imagine a reduction sequence like |
| 08:34:15 | <polezaivsani> | s/putr/pure/ |
| 08:34:27 | <ski> | square (2 + 3) |
| 08:34:32 | <ski> | = (2 + 3) * (2 + 3) |
| 08:34:38 | <ski> | = 5 * (2 + 3) |
| 08:34:40 | <ski> | = 5 * 5 |
| 08:34:42 | <ski> | = 25 |
| 08:34:44 | <polezaivsani> | yep |
| 08:35:06 | <ski> | this is not directly (but indirectly) related to absence of side-effects |
| 08:35:19 | <ski> | anyway, with call-by-value evaluation, you'd instead get |
| 08:35:24 | <ski> | square (2 + 3) |
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| 08:35:28 | <ski> | = square 5 |
| 08:35:30 | <ski> | = 5 * 5 |
| 08:35:32 | <ski> | = 25 |
| 08:35:48 | <polezaivsani> | roger that |
| 08:36:47 | <ski> | so, with call-by-value, you first evaluate the operand(s) (argument(s), parameter(s)) (and the operator, the function (expression) itself. but often, that's just a name indicating a function), before substituting the actual parameter(s) (here `2 + 3', becoming `5'), for the formal parameter(s) (here `x') in the body of the function definition (here `x * x') |
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| 08:38:37 | <ski> | while, with call-by-name, you (first evaluate the operator expression, the function itself, to know which function you're calling. but here, that's `square' which is just a name, so nothing to do. then you) substitute the actual parameter(s) for the formal parameter(s) in the definiens (definition body of the function). and only if evaluating that body causes the parameter (`x') to be evaluated, do you |
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| 08:38:43 | <ski> | actually evaluate the actual parameter expression (`2 + 3') |
| 08:39:20 | <ski> | so, if the formal parameter doesn't occur (or isn't forced to be evaluated, on the path/branch that is chosen), then we save evaluating the actual parameter expression |
| 08:39:35 | polezaivsani | nods |
| 08:39:43 | <ski> | however, if that formal parameter occurs more than once, then we actually do the same work more than once, that would only be done once, with call-by-value |
| 08:40:28 | <ski> | so, call-by-need evaluation (also called lazy evaluation) is an optimization on call-by-name, where you cache/share the result of the evaluation of parameters, so that you evaluate them at most once |
| 08:40:45 | <ski> | so indicate this in a reduction trace like above, we could write like |
| 08:40:49 | <ski> | square (2 + 3) |
| 08:41:02 | <ski> | = x * x where x = 2 + 3 |
| 08:41:04 | <ski> | = x * x where x = 5 |
| 08:41:08 | <ski> | = 5 * x where x = 5 |
| 08:41:10 | <polezaivsani> | oh, right, now i'm recalling the call-by-need! |
| 08:41:11 | <ski> | = 5 * 5 where x = 5 |
| 08:41:13 | <ski> | = 5 * 5 |
| 08:41:17 | <ski> | = 25 |
| 08:41:54 | <ski> | (the step where we remove the `where x = 5', because there's no (use) occurance of `x' anymore (the `x' in `x = 5' is a binding occurance of `x') is called Garbage Collection (GC)) |
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| 08:43:12 | <ski> | so, the rule is, any actual parameter expressions are shared, and we can indicate that textually in the reduction trace by using `where' (or `let'-`in'), giving them names, and storing the result (here `5') of the evaluation of the actual parameter, in the binding (`x = ...') |
| 08:43:38 | <ski> | polezaivsani : this makes sense ? |
| 08:45:23 | <ski> | (if the formal parameter isn't actually used more than once in the definiens, there is no need (but you still can, if you wish) to explicitly share its reduction, using `where' like above) |
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| 08:48:11 | <polezaivsani> | ski: yes, i guess it does. i've been missing the by-need evaluation step. suppose the cached evaluation of expressions is retained for any use within the lexical scope, right? so that in square x = x * someFn x, the x in the, say, (someFn x) thunk would still evaluate to a cached value |
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| 08:49:44 | <ski> | yes. and even if we provide a result back from the call to the function, some later demand of *part* of this result could still cause `x' (or part of it) to be reduced further. so this cached evaluation is not dropped just because the function call that introduced it has "returned". it may be retained for later |
| 08:49:45 | <davean> | x is a name, not the thing |
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| 08:50:21 | <ski> | `(*)' is just another function, just like `someFn' |
| 08:50:32 | <ski> | it's also worthwhile to point out that the Haskell report does not require an implementation to use call-by-need / lazy evaluation. these three i mentioned above (by-value,by-name,by-need) are reduction strategies, they are kinds of *operational* semantics, which describes a sequence of steps to take, to arrive at an answer/result |
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| 08:52:19 | <ski> | there's a "higher-level" (less concerned with details) semantics, called denotational semantics. it talks about *which* answers you arrive at (or not, in case there is no answer, e.g. because of infinite loop, or pattern-match failure). the two main versions of it that are interesting here are called strict/eager evaluation vs. non-strict evaluation. Haskell is specified to use non-strict evaluation |
| 08:52:47 | <ski> | this means that, in general, `f x' may have an answer, even if `x' does not |
| 08:53:06 | <ski> | > (const 2) (3 `div` 0) |
| 08:53:07 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 08:54:00 | <polezaivsani> | ski: yeah, that does make sense. Thank you a ton, ski! i'll go reread the whole explanation couple more times, but i'm close to getting a grip in the concept |
| 08:54:03 | <ski> | so, non-strict evaluation can be implemented, by using by-name reduction. but it can also be implemented by using by-need. in practice, most Haskell implementations (at least as a default) uses by-need / lazy reduction |
| 08:54:28 | <ski> | @where lazy |
| 08:54:28 | <lambdabot> | "Lazy Evaluation of Haskell" by monochrom at <http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/lazy.xhtml>; "The Incomplete Guide to Lazy Evaluation (in Haskell)" by apfelmus in 2015-03-07 at <https://apfelmus. |
| 08:54:28 | <lambdabot> | nfshost.com/articles/lazy-eval.html>; "Laziness, strictness, guarded recursion" by bitemyapp at <https://github.com/bitemyapp/learnhaskell/blob/master/specific_topics.md#user-content-laziness- |
| 08:54:28 | <lambdabot> | strictness-guarded-recursion> |
| 08:54:39 | <ski> | polezaivsani : perhaps some of those ^ links might also help |
| 08:54:47 | <polezaivsani> | cheers! |
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| 08:57:17 | <ski> | there has been Haskell implementations which have experimented a bit with speculative reduction. where to evaluate `f x', you might still try evaluating `x' in a different thread (if you have an idle one to spare), in the hope that `x' will be needed. but one needs to be careful, because if `x' generates a pattern-match failure, that must be caught, so as to not abort the execution of the whole program (so, |
| 08:57:23 | <ski> | we pretend that we never reduced `x'). also, we most likely will set a time-out, so that if `x' takes too long (e.g. in case it goes into an infinite loop), we will eventually stop attempting to reduce it |
| 08:57:59 | <polezaivsani> | yes, i was about to ask how not requiring a particular evalution strategy could allow for all the semantics of the language/library functions, but bet me to it :) |
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| 08:58:36 | <polezaivsani> | s/but/but you/ |
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| 08:59:01 | <ski> | in practice, when people try to reason about performance (time and space complexity) in Haskell, they normally assume by-need (sometimes modulated by thinking about e.g. fusion optimization, &c.) |
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| 09:35:26 | <Guest28> | Hello everyone, I found this tool https://github.com/camfort/fortran-src written in Haskel. My goal is to get the AST for a fortran source. But I don't understand the format of the output http://sprunge.us/Q5G6p9 . I need to get it in order to process it. Can someone help me to identify it? Is it possible to get it in another format like json or |
| 09:35:26 | <Guest28> | xml. |
| 09:36:15 | <[exa]> | Guest28: this output format looks like a pretty standard haskell ADT |
| 09:36:20 | <[exa]> | aka "normal datatype" |
| 09:36:29 | <ski> | that's (sortof, not quite), Haskell format |
| 09:36:46 | <ski> | (someone's been abusing `Show') |
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| 09:36:51 | <[exa]> | if you want JSON, formatting it as JSON shouldn't be that hard |
| 09:37:09 | [exa] | wishes that they have Generic instances |
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| 09:38:46 | <Guest28> | [exa] okay thank you, I will try to understand this format and how I can convert it to xml format or json. |
| 09:39:05 | <[exa]> | Guest28: how did you now get the code out? |
| 09:39:24 | <ski> | probably it would be simpler to convert it to the format you need/want, on the Haskell side, rather than trying to parse this text output, and translate it that way |
| 09:39:26 | <[exa]> | oh they have a commandline interface, I see |
| 09:39:47 | <Guest28> | [exa] `fortran-src file.f77` |
| 09:40:07 | <[exa]> | you might need to write a tiny bit of haskell to get the conversion done |
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| 09:40:31 | <[exa]> | good news: they indeed have generic instances :D |
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| 09:41:38 | <Guest28> | [exa] it would be better indeed, even though I have never used a haskel before. |
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| 09:42:26 | <Guest28> | thank you for your quick response. |
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| 09:46:07 | <[exa]> | okay well, they have an actual supporting library that you can use, docs are here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fortran-src |
| 09:46:33 | <[exa]> | the source code for the `fortran-src` tool is just using the library, it's here https://github.com/camfort/fortran-src/blob/master/app/Main.hs |
| 09:47:03 | <[exa]> | chances are that you'll be able to make a tiny program of your own that just rins the "parsing" action on the source |
| 09:48:06 | <[exa]> | and when you have that, you define your chosen JSON encoding of the source (not very complicated) and print it out as JSON |
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| 09:48:24 | <[exa]> | (there's Aeson package for doing that in a pretty straightforward way) |
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| 09:57:02 | <ski> | Guest28 ^ |
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| 10:32:12 | <polezaivsani`> | ski, if you don't mind me asking - the remark about the results of evaluation persisting beyond, hand-wavy, the function that required it - does it happen because that result was somehow reachable from some outer ~lexical scope~? If not - what kind of identity would be used to know exactly *what* it was that we had evaluated? |
| 10:35:28 | <ski> | if you're computing `head (map (^ 2) [3 ..])', then you'll reduce `map (^ 2) [3 ..]' to `(3 ^ 2) : map (^ 2) [4 ..]', but then `head' only asks for the part before the `:', so the latter part (the tail of the list) gets discarded (isn't being reduced) |
| 10:36:23 | <ski> | but you could e.g. bind the result of `map (^ 2) [3 ..]' to a pattern `x : xs', binding `x' to the head (`3 ^ 2') and `xs' to the tail. and maybe later, depending on which branch you're choosing, you may or may not reduce `xs' further |
| 10:37:52 | <ski> | so, even though the call to `map' in `map (^ 2) [3 ..]' has "returned", we still have a lingering recursive call to `map' (`map (^ 2) [4 ..]') in `xs'. if we later reduce this, it, too, will be shared |
| 10:38:47 | <ski> | does that help ? |
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| 10:40:50 | <polezaivsani`> | i meant that we'd retain the recursive map call only if we'd have it bound to a name - is that correct? |
| 10:41:47 | <ski> | well, you could also end up with the recursive call being a *part* of something that's bound to a name |
| 10:42:27 | <polezaivsani`> | yes |
| 10:42:48 | <ski> | but yes, it's basically via the naming that we're able to refer to some part more than once, and that's where the caching of the result comes in |
| 10:43:07 | <polezaivsani`> | makes perfect sense, again - much thanks, ski! |
| 10:44:14 | <ski> | if you're matching some result with a pattern `(_,_) : _', then that'll force some reduction, but won't actually bind any name to any part of it. so, that doesn't introduce any reason to keep the (partial reduction) results of that cached |
| 10:44:49 | <ski> | hm, btw, another example i was thinking about before, but didn't cover then |
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| 10:44:57 | <ski> | swap (x,y) = (y,x) |
| 10:45:04 | <ski> | sumPair (a,b) = a + b |
| 10:46:14 | <ski> | consider `sumPair (swap (2,3))'. to reduce this, because `sumPair' is matching its input not against a plain formal parameter variable (like `p' maybe), but against a pattern like `(a,b)', we have to reduce the call to `swap', to be able to reduce the `sumPair' call |
| 10:46:37 | <ski> | so, `swap (2,3)' gets reduced to `(3,2)' |
| 10:46:59 | <polezaivsani`> | yep |
| 10:47:34 | <ski> | if we had had a definition `sumPair p@(a,b) = ...', then `p' could keep this cached result of reducing `swap (2,3)' to `(3,2)' |
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| 10:48:45 | <ski> | or, if we were reducing `let p = swap (2,3) in sumPair p + ..p..', then `p' would also get cached |
| 10:49:28 | <ski> | so, it's the fact that the result of a computation gets bound to a name, somewhere, that causes it to require caching, under by-name reduction |
| 10:50:09 | <ski> | (the naming might not be visible in the code snippet you're looking at, directly. it could still happen in other code that's called by your code) |
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| 10:51:24 | <polezaivsani`> | yes, now there's no ghost of some abstract evaulation cahing happening to bother me anymore :) |
| 10:51:31 | <ski> | (if you have a definition `copy t = (t,t)', and then you call `copy (swap (x,y))', then the result of that `swap' call will be cached (in the two components of the computed pair), even though the expression `copy (swap (x,y))' itself doesn't indicate this naming of the result of the `swap' call) |
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| 10:53:17 | <polezaivsani`> | yes, i see that |
| 10:53:37 | <ski> | iirc, the first link i gave above displays the caching in terms of a graph, with multiple arrows pointing to the same location indicating the sharing, rather than using textual names |
| 10:53:46 | <ski> | but it's the same concept, just different way to convey it |
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| 10:55:13 | <polezaivsani`> | yes, it's a graph in there |
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| 11:54:57 | <romesrf> | !hello |
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| 12:00:15 | <romesrf> | I'm wondering: If I use WriterT but never use the accumulated values, is it "zero cost"? |
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| 12:01:06 | <geekosaur> | would waste memory |
| 12:01:13 | <geekosaur> | thunks aren't free |
| 12:01:58 | <romesrf> | thank you |
| 12:03:06 | <romesrf> | What were the RTS options to see the memory used ? I want to see how bad it is for my scenario |
| 12:06:32 | <romesrf> | it's -T (sorry, that was in the docs obviously) |
| 12:08:09 | <joel135> | i tried copying the xmobar config from here https://xmonad.org/TUTORIAL.html but i get a very obscure syntax error |
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| 12:09:24 | <joel135> | (line 31, column 10), unexpected "s", expecting space or "Run" |
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| 12:10:31 | <joel135> | i tried simplifying the file but then it also doesn't work because it needs all those fields apparently |
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| 12:16:42 | <geekosaur> | joel135, xmobar config only looks like Haskell, and yes the parser is really lousy about error messages |
| 12:17:16 | <geekosaur> | that one *usually* means one of the plugins wasn't included in your build. since most of the ones there are built-ins, I'd guess your build is without alsa |
| 12:18:00 | <joel135> | i installed it like "stack install xmobar" |
| 12:18:28 | <geekosaur> | if you built xmobar yourself, rebuild it with --flags=all_extensions |
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| 12:19:18 | <joel135> | i tried removing the alsa part and now i get: unexpected end of input |
| 12:19:57 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 12:19:58 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 12:20:55 | <geekosaur> | (and I *really* wish they'd do proper error handling, it's not that hard ): |
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| 12:23:06 | <joel135> | https://termbin.com/re9i |
| 12:24:48 | <geekosaur> | hm, that looks right aside from the alsa plugin still being in the template |
| 12:25:13 | <joel135> | i am missing a closing " ! |
| 12:25:15 | <geekosaur> | which shouldn;t cause an "unexpected end of input", I think |
| 12:25:31 | <joel135> | now it works (without alsa, which is fine :) |
| 12:25:34 | <geekosaur> | oh right, right at the end of the template |
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| 12:26:05 | <geekosaur> | personally I'd turn on all the extensions, they're nice |
| 12:26:23 | <joel135> | can i do it from stack? |
| 12:26:36 | <geekosaur> | and it means you won't have to dig this up in the future and rebuildit if you want to for example have it show what you're playing |
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| 12:26:58 | <geekosaur> | yes, just rerun the stack install with --flags=all_extensions |
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| 12:28:38 | <hpc> | geekosaur: you have to think like a computer - it keeps reading string stuff until it finds ", which means the parser expects everything except eof |
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| 12:28:48 | <hpc> | it gets all the way to the end, and finally that's where it gets surprised |
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| 12:28:57 | <hpc> | the error isn't where the problem happened, it's where the surprise happened |
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| 12:29:16 | <joel135> | it could also have been mismatched {} i think |
| 12:29:31 | <joel135> | or [] |
| 12:30:03 | <joel135> | or any other unfinished syntactical form (if that's the right word for it) |
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| 12:31:09 | <joel135> | "stack install xmobar --flags=all_extensions" |
| 12:31:30 | <joel135> | did you really mean this? stack says invalid option |
| 12:32:02 | <geekosaur> | I'm not a stack user so no, I'm not sure. The install instructions are for cabal |
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| 12:32:57 | <geekosaur> | looks like it's --flag all_extensions |
| 12:33:04 | <geekosaur> | can't have consistency, can we? :( |
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| 12:33:39 | <joel135> | "option flag: Must have a colon" :( |
| 12:33:48 | <geekosaur> | o.O |
| 12:34:10 | <geekosaur> | sigh |
| 12:34:21 | <geekosaur> | --flag xmobar:all_extensions |
| 12:34:24 | <geekosaur> | I think |
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| 12:36:02 | <joel135> | "stack install xmobar --flags=xmobar:all_extensions" |
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| 12:36:21 | <joel135> | ok, this is progress. now it is just asking me to update my global stack.yaml |
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| 12:37:42 | <joel135> | it is compiling now :) |
| 12:39:37 | <geekosaur> | possibly it'llstop later asking for some C libs to be installed for things like mpris |
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| 12:42:51 | <joel135> | ok |
| 12:45:01 | <geekosaur> | hpc, yes, I know, but parsec/megaparsec makes error handling and proper error reporting pretty easy. but xmobar is infamous for not bothering and thereby reporting errorsthat are really confusing to users |
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| 12:45:36 | <geekosaur> | sometimes I recommend the actual haskell config just to get saner error messages |
| 12:46:02 | <geekosaur> | (granted, ghc is also infamous for "parse error" with little context…) |
| 12:48:13 | <romesrf> | ahah |
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| 12:58:21 | <sprout> | egelbot: 1 + "2" |
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| 13:40:50 | <jiribenes> | is there a reason why type operators cannot be partially applied like sections? |
| 13:40:51 | <jiribenes> | for example `(a ->)` standing for `((->) a)` similarly to how `(2+)` stands for `((+) 2)` |
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| 13:41:24 | <jiribenes> | (besides "nobody actually implemented it") |
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| 13:43:14 | <merijn> | jiribenes: "Type operators weren't a thing when the report was written"? :) |
| 13:44:10 | <geekosaur> | does the other way actually work? I think you can't in general do anything with (-> a) the way you can with (a ->) |
| 13:44:22 | <ski> | left sections would work. right section wouldn't |
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| 13:44:38 | <jiribenes> | merijn: fair enough :) |
| 13:45:17 | <merijn> | Also the above, yeah |
| 13:45:28 | <ski> | @type (False,) |
| 13:45:29 | <lambdabot> | t -> (Bool, t) |
| 13:45:29 | <ski> | @kind (Int,) |
| 13:45:31 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘)’ |
| 13:45:48 | <geekosaur> | % :k (Int,) |
| 13:45:49 | <yahb> | geekosaur: ; <interactive>:1:6: error: parse error on input `)' |
| 13:45:52 | <geekosaur> | bah |
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| 13:46:12 | <geekosaur> | % :set -XTupleSections |
| 13:46:12 | <yahb> | geekosaur: |
| 13:46:13 | <ski> | (that's `TupleSections') |
| 13:46:17 | <geekosaur> | % :k (Int,) |
| 13:46:17 | <yahb> | geekosaur: ; <interactive>:1:6: error: parse error on input `)' |
| 13:46:18 | <ski> | it's already on |
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| 13:46:41 | <ski> | % :q |
| 13:46:42 | <yahb> | ski: |
| 13:46:44 | <ski> | % :type (False,) |
| 13:46:45 | <yahb> | ski: t -> (Bool, t) |
| 13:48:30 | <jiribenes> | ski: just to be clear, why wouldn't right sections work? |
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| 13:50:15 | <merijn> | jiribenes: *right* sections won't work |
| 13:50:29 | <merijn> | i.e. (-> Int) as opposed to (Int ->) |
| 13:50:50 | <merijn> | jiribenes: Because right-sections are equivalent to type-level lambdas which break all sorts of things |
| 13:51:21 | <merijn> | well, I guess right sections could work IFF immediately applied, but that kinda seems to defeat the purpose |
| 13:51:28 | <ski> | `(2 +)' desugars to `(+) 2', while `(+ 2)' basically desugars to `flip (+) 2'. there is no corresponding `Flip' on the type level that one could use here |
| 13:51:44 | <jiribenes> | oh right, yeah, that makes sense |
| 13:52:20 | <jiribenes> | thanks! :) |
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| 13:54:34 | <ski> | (well, iirc, the report specifies `(2 +)' to desugar to `\y -> 2 + y' (or `\y -> (+) 2 y' if you prefer), and `(+ 2)' to `\x -> x + 2' (or `\x -> (+) x 2') (`x' and `y' being fresh identifiers here), but, iirc, GHC instead desugars the first of those to `(+) 2') |
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| 13:56:54 | <ski> | (having `Flip' be a `newtype' or `data' type wouldn't work, since `(-> b) a' would then mean `Flip (->) b a', which would be distinct from `a -> b'. and having it be a type synonym like `type Flip f b a = f a b' also wouldn't work, since type synonyms must be fully applied (saturated application, so just `Flip (->) b' will not work. i guess `(-> a) b' would work, if then you could just write `a -> b' or |
| 13:57:00 | <ski> | `(->) a b' to begin with) |
| 13:58:14 | <ski> | (hm .. i guess with `LiberalTypeSynonyms', having `Foo (-> b)' could work, if `Foo' is a type synonym that applies its callback argument) |
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| 14:24:08 | <janus> | how do i run cabal outdated on all of my transitive dependencies? |
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| 14:34:49 | <justsomeguy> | Is the list type basically the same thing as a stream type wrapped in Maybe? data Stream a = Stream a (Stream a); :type Just (Stream a); :type (1:)? I was thinking about all the things lists can possibly represent... |
| 14:35:58 | <ski> | no. lists can be finite |
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| 14:36:22 | <ski> | with `Maybe (Stream a)' you either have no stream, or you have an infinite stream |
| 14:37:32 | <ski> | (also, `Just (Stream a)' would have type `Maybe (Stream t -> Stream t)', assuming `a' had type `t' .. i'm not sure what you were aiming for, there) |
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| 14:38:27 | <justsomeguy> | My though process is Nothing would correspond to the [] data constructor. Then you can pattern match on (Just Stream a (Just (Stream a ... Nothing), right? |
| 14:38:48 | justsomeguy | is not sure if that makes sense |
| 14:38:52 | <ski> | (this is one reason why i typically don't like naming data constructors the same as the type constructor they belong to. i'd prefer `data Stream a = Cons a (Stream a)', or at least `data Stream a = MkStream a (Stream a)' (you could also use a `newtype' of `(a,Stream a)', if you prefer)) |
| 14:39:31 | <ski> | justsomeguy : yes, it does. but that's not `Maybe (Stream a)', that's not "a stream type wrapped in Maybe". that's *interleaving* your given `Stream' type with `Maybe' |
| 14:39:51 | <ski> | newtype Stream a = MkStream (Maybe (a,Stream a)) -- like this |
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| 14:40:49 | <ski> | another way to do this would be to have |
| 14:41:07 | <ski> | newtype StreamF a s = MkStreamF (Maybe (a,s)) |
| 14:41:14 | <ski> | or |
| 14:41:21 | <ski> | data StreamF a s = Nil |
| 14:41:31 | <ski> | | Cons a s |
| 14:41:35 | <ski> | together with |
| 14:41:50 | <ski> | type Stream a = Mu (StreamF a) |
| 14:41:57 | <ski> | @src Mu |
| 14:41:57 | <lambdabot> | newtype Mu f = In { out :: f (Mu f) } |
| 14:42:11 | <ski> | (you also see the name `Fix') |
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| 14:43:55 | <ski> | so, you'd have `In (Cons 2 (In (Cons 3 (In (Cons 5 (In (Cons 7 (In Nil))))))))', or `In (Just (2,In (Just (3,In (Just (5,In (Just (7,In Nothing))))))))' |
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| 14:44:43 | <ski> | (or with s/In/MkStream/ for the latter one, if you want the directly recursive `newtype' `Stream', rather than doing recursion via `Mu') |
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| 14:47:58 | <justsomeguy> | I don't know why, but this seems interesting. I'll have to experiment with the examples you gave me just now. Thanks for humoring my silly questions :^) |
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| 14:51:10 | <ski> | not silly questions |
| 14:51:28 | <ski> | playful, curious, questions are not silly |
| 14:51:44 | <merijn> | Also, silly isn't a judgement of quality |
| 14:51:58 | <merijn> | Some of my favourite haskell code is silly as hell :p |
| 14:52:22 | <merijn> | "data Neither a b = Left | Right" remains a favourite :D |
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| 14:54:28 | ski | . o O ( "There are no silly questions, only silly people." ? ) |
| 14:54:34 | ski | is being silly |
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| 15:36:02 | <maerwald> | merijn: lol |
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| 16:22:22 | <edwardk> | wouldn't data Neither a b = Neither (a -> Void) (b -> Void) ? |
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| 16:35:52 | <carbolymer> | edwardk: how do you use that constructor? |
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| 16:45:03 | <byorgey> | edwardk: I was going to suggest that too, but decided I was being too nitpicky about something that was just a joke. Glad I'm not the only one though =) |
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| 16:46:03 | <byorgey> | I guess it depends whether 'Neither a b' means 'neither a nor b are inhabited', or 'you have neither a value of type a nor one of type b' |
| 16:46:17 | <edwardk> | carbolymer: Neither id id :: Neither Void Void -- works |
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| 16:46:50 | <carbolymer> | edwardk: yeah, but I can't think of any other example than that |
| 16:46:55 | <edwardk> | data Neither a b = Neither { notLeft :: a -> Void, notRight :: b -> Void } |
| 16:47:34 | <edwardk> | carbolymer: V1 a, Const Void x, Down (V1 a), ... are all "uninhabited" data types |
| 16:47:45 | <edwardk> | all of which admit those a -> Void embeddings |
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| 16:48:19 | shapr` | is now known as shapr |
| 16:48:38 | <byorgey> | deMorgan :: Either a b -> (Neither a b -> Void) -- exercise |
| 16:48:52 | <byorgey> | deMorgan2 :: (Neither a b -> Void) -> Either a b -- beware of pacts with the devil |
| 16:49:32 | <edwardk> | the latter may require timetravel or callcc |
| 16:50:01 | <byorgey> | or pacts with the devil, yes |
| 16:50:23 | <edwardk> | the devil pact would let you go from not not not -> not, no? |
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| 16:51:09 | <byorgey> | ah, right, I guess the devil pact story is actually constructive, isn't it |
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| 16:52:09 | <edwardk> | yeah |
| 16:52:16 | <edwardk> | otherwise you need the devil to exist outside the machine =) |
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| 16:52:39 | <byorgey> | hehe, right =) |
| 16:52:44 | <geekosaur> | always knew programmers were devils :} |
| 16:53:01 | <edwardk> | only scheme programmers. |
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| 18:19:08 | <bjourne> | is there a tool for converting functions in pointfree style to applicative style? |
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| 18:23:31 | <Clint> | what? |
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| 18:27:42 | <bjourne> | obfuscated haskell |
| 18:27:44 | <bjourne> | p = m (vr g) . ysu . mapV (m (vr g)) . mv (m (mv f)) . usy . m (gv 4) |
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| 18:34:09 | <hgolden> | I care about everyone in the Haskell community: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/t0hib5/i_care_about_everyone_in_the_haskell_community/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 |
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| 18:38:44 | ski | . o O ( "Devils and Angels" <http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/classic/message4528.html>,<http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/classic/message6776.html>,<https://web.archive.org/web/20040919023420/http://www.math.chalmers.se/~augustss/AFP/problems/devils-n-angels/> ) |
| 18:38:56 | ski | . o O ( (p. 265) "Programming with Continuations" by Daniel P. Friedman,Christopher T. Haynes,Eugene Kohlbecker in 1984 at (p. 263) <https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-46490-4_23> ; (p. 20) "Call with Current Continuation Patterns" by Darrell Ferguson,Dwight Deugo in 2001-08-24 at <https://3e8.org/pub/scheme/doc/Call%20with%20Current%20Continuation%20patterns.pdf> ) |
| 18:39:43 | <ski> | bjourne : by using `Applicative (rho ->)' or what ? |
| 18:41:53 | <ski> | bjourne : what's the relevant type signatures ? |
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| 18:56:18 | <sm> | nice hgolden ! likewise! |
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| 19:03:05 | <byorgey> | bjourne: you mean like an inverse to lambdabot's @pointfree command? |
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| 19:05:38 | <byorgey> | I don't know of anything which does that automatically. |
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| 19:05:56 | <dolio> | @unpl f . g . h |
| 19:05:57 | <lambdabot> | (\ x -> f (g (h x))) |
| 19:06:24 | <monochrom> | @pl already does both pointfree and applicative. |
| 19:06:33 | <monochrom> | @pl \x -> f x (g x) |
| 19:06:33 | <lambdabot> | ap f g |
| 19:06:41 | <byorgey> | oh! =D |
| 19:06:47 | <monochrom> | Just change that "ap" to "(<*>)". |
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| 19:07:14 | <byorgey> | @unpl m (vr g) . ysu . mapV (m (vr g)) . mv (m (mv f)) . usy . m (gv 4) |
| 19:07:14 | <lambdabot> | (\ x -> m (vr g) (ysu (mapV (m (vr g)) (mv (m (mv f)) (usy (m (gv 4) x)))))) |
| 19:07:15 | <monochrom> | So "convert pointfree to applicative" sounds like nonsense. applicative is a special case of pointfree. |
| 19:07:29 | <byorgey> | not really an improvement |
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| 19:47:15 | <Henson> | is there a way I can use BangPatterns in data types with records? I can do "data Foo = Foo !Double !Int" but I don't know if I can do "data Foo = Foo { !fooVal1 :: Double, !fooVal2 :: Int }" or some variation thereof |
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| 19:47:45 | <xerox> | still bang on the type not the record name |
| 19:48:02 | <geekosaur> | @let data Foo = Foo { fooVal2 :: !Double } |
| 19:48:05 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
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| 19:49:01 | <Henson> | xerox, geekosaur: thank you! |
| 19:51:08 | <monochrom> | If you don't mind reading a bit of grammar rules, it's covered at https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch4.html#x10-690004.2.1 |
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| 19:52:07 | <Henson> | monochrom: thank you for the reference |
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| 20:19:20 | <Zemyla> | Why is minusNaturalMaybe not in Numeric.Natural? |
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| 21:12:04 | <EvanR> | I don't know, but in the course of using two naturals and minus I expect you have some proof leading up to the computation for why b is less than or equal to a, before you do the minus. Similar to (non) division by zero |
| 21:12:34 | <EvanR> | dealing with the "exception" in the course of an arithmetical formula seems inconvenient and awkward |
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| 21:18:50 | <ski> | truncated/cutoff/limited/proper subtraction / difference-or-zero / monus can occasionally be useful |
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| 21:19:21 | <ski> | (it also forms an adjunction with addition) |
| 21:20:03 | <ski> | (or, i suppose you'd say, a (monotone) Galois connection) |
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| 21:33:39 | <janus> | are there any other servers for Wai.Network.Application than warp? |
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| 21:42:38 | <pierrot> | hello, I've installed the Barbarossa chess engine from here https://github.com/nionita/Barbarossa. I cloned the repo and compiled it through `stack build` command in the repository folder. The message at the end of the process was "Installing executable Barbarossa in ./.stack-work/install/x86_64-linux-tinfo6/0a7951934ebf7c2de4ffac9f7cdee9e7a9d9befdd60ade8bb99971cddd553639/8.8.4/bin/Barbarossa" and the |
| 21:42:44 | <pierrot> | executable is indeed there and I could run it |
| 21:42:48 | <pierrot> | however, that path is huge |
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| 21:43:08 | <pierrot> | I know I can make a symlink to that file |
| 21:43:23 | <pierrot> | but there must be a way of running it using stack I guess |
| 21:43:30 | <pierrot> | and I'm missing that way |
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| 21:43:34 | <Cale> | You can also just move the executable somewhere else |
| 21:43:41 | <janus> | pierrot: i think if you do 'stack install' it will put it in a more convenient place |
| 21:44:39 | <sm> | ~/.local/bin |
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| 21:45:13 | <sm> | or if you don't want to move it: stack run |
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| 21:45:50 | <pierrot> | thank you very much Cale , janus and sm . I'll try with `stack install` |
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| 23:08:59 | <romesrf> | could something like newtype X = X (Writer W (ExceptT Err (ReaderT R m) a)) ever be a Monad? |
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| 23:09:48 | <romesrf> | I've been trying to implement one for quite some time |
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| 23:10:16 | <geekosaur> | the `a` has to be on the outside |
| 23:10:30 | <monochrom> | Aren't you missing m and a, and should start with "newtype X m a"? |
| 23:10:39 | <romesrf> | monochrom: yes it starts like that |
| 23:10:46 | <geekosaur> | hm |
| 23:10:53 | <romesrf> | I've tried quite hard, but I don't think it's possible |
| 23:10:56 | <monochrom> | Writer? WriterT? |
| 23:10:58 | <romesrf> | X m a = X ... |
| 23:11:01 | <romesrf> | monochrom: yes hahah |
| 23:11:22 | <romesrf> | I was thinking about just doing WriterT and propagating the W with the Error |
| 23:11:22 | <geekosaur> | I think I see what they're doing, and I don't think it will work (but I am far from expert at this_ |
| 23:11:52 | <romesrf> | geekosaur: yes, the idea was that if Except is "Left" I don't lose what was accumulated |
| 23:12:11 | <romesrf> | (bc runWriterT :: WriterT w m a -> m (a, w) |
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| 23:12:33 | <romesrf> | that's why I was trying to have it on the outside, and oh i've been trying to write >>= for close to an hour now |
| 23:12:50 | <romesrf> | at least it was fun :P |
| 23:14:39 | <ski> | @unmtl Writer W (ExceptT Err (ReaderT R m) a) |
| 23:14:39 | <lambdabot> | (R -> m (Either Err a), W) |
| 23:14:42 | <ski> | @unmtl WriterT W (ExceptT Err (ReaderT R m)) a |
| 23:14:42 | <lambdabot> | R -> m (Either Err (a, W)) |
| 23:16:42 | <ski> | how would you do `(R -> m (Either Err a),W) -> (a -> (R -> m (Either Err b),W)) -> (R -> m (Either Err b),W)' ? |
| 23:17:34 | <Zemyla> | So how, in github, do I say that a pull request closes an issue? |
| 23:18:19 | <ski> | the second `W' is under the `a ->'. so, you'd need to throw that `a -> (...,W)' inside the `(R -> ..a..,W)'. but then that second `W' would be inside an `m' still, and you couldn't get it out, to merge with the other `W' |
| 23:18:37 | <romesrf> | ski: ahahah that's insightful : ) |
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| 23:20:06 | <romesrf> | ski: I hit the wall when I got to (ExceptT E (ReaderT R m) a, ExceptT E (ReaderT R m) W) to pass to `write` |
| 23:20:20 | <romesrf> | (when `write` required (ExceptT E (ReaderT R m) a, W) |
| 23:20:25 | <ski> | (it'd be inside `Either Err' too, of course. so, even ignoring `m' (say it's `Identity)', the `W' might not be there. i suppose you'd just pass on the only `W' you have, in that case ..) |
| 23:21:33 | <ski> | yea, that sounds like it |
| 23:21:45 | <romesrf> | ski: in the end it's impossible for it to be a monad right? |
| 23:22:09 | <ski> | at least for every monad `m', i'd say |
| 23:22:20 | <geekosaur> | Zemyla, from what I've seen, just have a line that says "Fixes: #issue" or "Closes: #issue" |
| 23:22:30 | <geekosaur> | in the description of the commit or PR |
| 23:22:33 | <romesrf> | thank you for looking into it heh :) |
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