Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-03-03 (liberachat/#haskell)

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02:01:38 <lechner> Hi, what is the easiest way to get the cabal files for https://hackage.haskell.org/package/equivalence-0.1 please?
02:01:44 <lechner> file
02:02:04 <lechner> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/equivalence-0.1/equivalence.cabalhttps://hackage.haskell.org/package/equivalence-0.1/equivalence.cabal
02:02:09 <geekosaur> It's the "Package description" link
02:02:28 <lechner> yeah, i just saw it. thanks!
02:03:04 <geekosaur> note that this will miss any revisions; if there are any you'll have to follow that linkand the revision number will be a hotlinkto the revised cabal file
02:03:35 <lechner> that's what they meant by "original
02:04:02 <lechner> how do the revisions take place, please? metatdata?
02:04:27 <lechner> i see it
02:04:33 <lechner> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/equivalence-0.3.5/revisions/https://hackage.haskell.org/package/equivalence-0.3.5/revisions/
02:04:41 <geekosaur> yeh
02:05:15 <lechner> that caused a hiccup in debian's machine
02:05:22 <geekosaur> there's a link for trustees and other authorized people to loosen package restrictions in the case where a package update isn't actually needed
02:05:44 <lechner> and that edit was from sep 19
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02:06:46 <lechner> but here they tightened for mtl?
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02:07:22 <lechner> actually, the edit was from feb 22
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02:11:11 <sclv> https://github.com/pa-ba/equivalence/commit/a939a65f550cce63d0afb690e385149d6baedd00
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02:13:06 <sclv> it could be this was a mistaken revision. You could contact andres to ask
02:13:11 <lechner> geekosaur: in the equivalence case, the "Package description" link pointed to the latests cabal revision (mtl >= 2.2.1)
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02:13:39 <lechner> sclv: i am too new
02:14:08 <sclv> yes the description link should point to latesr
02:15:56 <lechner> thanks!
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04:00:04 <albet70> what's the fastest way to check if a list is ordered? a int list
04:01:07 <albet70> [1,2,3] is ordered, [1,3,2] isn't
04:01:38 <dsal> all + zipWith I think.
04:01:44 <Axman6> :t all (uncurry (<=)) . ap zip tail
04:01:45 <lambdabot> Ord a => [a] -> Bool
04:01:55 <Axman6> > all (uncurry (<=)) . ap zip tail $ [1..10]
04:01:57 <lambdabot> True
04:02:02 <Axman6> > all (uncurry (<=)) . ap zip tail $ [1..10] ++ [10]
04:02:04 <lambdabot> True
04:02:06 <Axman6> > all (uncurry (<=)) . ap zip tail $ [1..10] ++ [9]
04:02:08 <lambdabot> False
04:02:29 <Axman6> @quote zip`ap`tail
04:02:29 <lambdabot> quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail the aztec god of consecutive numbers
04:02:39 <albet70> zipWit seems good
04:02:44 <albet70> zipWith
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04:04:49 <albet70> tail then zipWith
04:04:51 <Axman6> > and . ap (zipWith (<=) tail $ [1..10] ++ [9]
04:04:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:45: error:
04:04:52 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
04:04:59 <Axman6> > and . ap (zipWith (<=)) tail $ [1..10] ++ [9]
04:05:00 <lambdabot> False
04:05:43 <dsal> haha. I was off doing that with lambdabot.
04:05:49 <dsal> > let ordered = and . ap (zipWith (<=)) tail in ordered [1, 2, 3]
04:05:51 <lambdabot> True
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04:19:34 <albet70> what's <=?
04:19:45 <albet70> new symbol?
04:19:57 <albet70> less than...
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04:22:05 <jackdk> less than or equal to
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05:53:34 <Axman6> albet70: there's an alternative function which also meets your specification: isORdered [1,2,3] = True; isOrdered [1,3,2] = False; isOrdered error $ "Unspecified ordering: " <> show xs :)
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06:27:21 <Axman6> (Also known as the unit test method of TDD)
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07:16:57 <albet70> > all (== True) $ fmap (\x -> (fst x) >= (snd x)) $ zip (tail [1..6]) [1..6]
07:16:58 <lambdabot> True
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07:24:22 <opqdonut> albet70: consider uncurry (>=)
07:24:39 <pavonia> @src and
07:24:39 <lambdabot> and = foldr (&&) True
07:26:13 <albet70> what's uncurry?
07:26:41 <opqdonut> :t uncurry
07:26:42 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
07:26:46 <opqdonut> :t uncurry (>=)
07:26:47 <lambdabot> Ord a => (a, a) -> Bool
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07:33:38 <hololeap> it just takes a "two argument function" and turns it into a "function that takes a tuple as an argument"
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07:34:21 <hololeap> > (uncurry (+)) (3,4)
07:34:22 <lambdabot> 7
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07:35:55 <hololeap> uncurry f = (\x -> (fst x) `f` (snd x))
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08:22:21 <Guest65> nop
08:22:26 <Guest65> hello
08:22:44 <Guest65> what a best book for learn haskell
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09:44:27 <cc123652345762> Hello I face a problem using ghci 7.10.3
09:44:37 <cc123652345762> like this
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09:44:46 <cc123652345762> Prelude> a = 1+1
09:44:54 <cc123652345762> <interactive>:3:3: parse error on input ‘=’
09:45:06 <geekosaur> why are you using such an old version?
09:45:20 <geekosaur> 7.10 required you to say `let a=1+1`
09:47:03 <cc123652345762> I am going through cis194 and I first start from haskell:9.
09:47:28 <cc123652345762> But i found it raise error when I try "a :: Int"
09:47:40 <geekosaur> pretty sure you can do cis194 with a more recent ghc, orthey wouldn't have you using things that require 8.x
09:47:47 <cc123652345762> so I turn to an old edition...
09:47:59 <geekosaur> older version won't work there
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09:48:34 <cc123652345762> ok thanks a lot.
09:48:39 <geekosaur> if you do it in a file, you can put a declaration and its type signature anywhere in the file. in ghci (any version) they must be on the same line with a semicolon between them, or use :{ :} for multiline input mode
09:49:06 <geekosaur> otherwise you get an error "the typesignature lacks an accompanying binding"
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09:49:52 <geekosaur> ghci has gotten smarter over the years but it's still pretty dumb in some ways
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09:50:28 <cc123652345762> I just think that 7 is not so old...
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09:53:21 <geekosaur> ghc moves pretty quickly. but even so it's some 5-6 years old at this point
09:54:00 <geekosaur> I may be misremembvering and it's older. 6.6 was current in 2006
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10:58:50 <tomsmeding> is there a way to get a GHC.TypeNats.KnownNat (n + 1) from a KnownNat n?
10:59:32 <tomsmeding> or, to avoid an X-Y problem situation: can I define something inductively over a GHC type-level nat
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11:01:26 <kuribas> aka why haskell sucks as a DT language.
11:01:32 <tomsmeding> :p
11:01:40 <tomsmeding> well, it's just the GHC type-level nats
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11:02:08 <idnar> tomsmeding: 1) is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/GHC-TypeNats.html#t:-43-
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11:02:37 <tomsmeding> kuribas: data Nat = Z | S Nat ; data NatS n where ZS :: NatS Z ; SS :: NatS n -> NatS (S n) -- now this is perfectly okay to work with
11:02:52 <tomsmeding> idnar: that's the + I'm talking about yes
11:04:40 <tomsmeding> basically I want this, but then without unsafeCoerce https://paste.tomsmeding.com/EN5lrXvJ
11:05:03 <kuribas> tomsmeding: pattern match on KnownNat n ?
11:05:09 <tomsmeding> plz tell me how
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11:05:47 <tomsmeding> my first try was seeing if GHC infers KnownNat (n + 1) given KnownNat n, but it doesn't
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11:07:09 <kuribas> foo :: Proxy (KnownNat n) -> Proxy (KnownNat (n + 1)) ?
11:07:36 <geekosaur> I think you have to use a plugin to get inductive definitions without a lot of work proving it to ghc? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-typelits-knownnat
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11:08:00 <tomsmeding> kuribas: what would the definition of foo be?
11:08:23 <kuribas> foo Proxy = Proxy :)
11:08:46 <tomsmeding> way
11:08:48 <tomsmeding> *wat
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11:09:08 <tomsmeding> yeah okay but that isn't useful :p
11:09:32 <tomsmeding> it doesn't actually let me use KnownNat (n + 1); foo typechecks also as Proxy a -> Proxy (KnownNat n)
11:09:51 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: ah, so _that's_ what that plugin is really doing
11:09:59 <tomsmeding> why is ghc not doing this by itself
11:10:11 tomsmeding will stay with the unsafeCoerce for now
11:10:18 <geekosaur> you'd have to ask someone at ghc hq
11:10:34 <kuribas> this all just proofs to me haskell sucks as a DT language.
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11:13:45 <tomsmeding> ah apparently for my usecase I don't actually care that I have a well-formed KnownNat of the result, so I can just remove the unsafeCoerce and work with the Some InductiveNat
11:13:50 <tomsmeding> problem avoided :)
11:14:16 <merijn> At that point, just delete all uses of Nat, because who cares? :p
11:15:07 <kuribas> word
11:15:19 <geekosaur> Nat a problem :þ
11:15:25 <tomsmeding> then I'd have to rewrite half of my testing code
11:15:28 <tomsmeding> I _could_
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13:10:17 <unit73e> Hello. Silly newbie question. How should I handle conditional errors in 'Data.Binary.Get'? I was using if-then-else with fail, but ends up being ugly. I was kind of hoping there was a 'failIf -> Bool' or something similar.
13:10:51 <geekosaur> :t guard
13:10:51 <lambdabot> Alternative f => Bool -> f ()
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13:11:24 <unit73e> huh, that simple. thanks
13:12:37 <unit73e> i'm implementing a XP3 archiver for those weirdo japanese VNs
13:13:51 <unit73e> I'll share the code when it does something useful
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13:17:05 <unit73e> I was first doing in Java because there was a "sort of" implementation already but Java is horrible handling byte streams because it doesn't have unsigned. The other "sort of" implementation was in C++, which is kind of meh... too unsafe. Haskell is pretty good handling byte streams.
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13:27:11 <merijn> unit73e: Yeah, binary is pretty sweet for byte streams. It's a bit of a PITA for bitstreams, but those are fairly uncommon anyway
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13:28:15 <merijn> unit73e: Also, have a look at the various functions for Alternative/MonadPlus (Get implements both) besides guard. There's a bunch of useful ones
13:29:02 <unit73e> merijn, will do. thanks. I often get stuck on those things... either forget or just don't know.
13:29:47 <merijn> See also
13:29:56 <merijn> @hackage parser-combinators
13:29:56 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parser-combinators
13:30:32 <unit73e> I did think of using a parsec but I'm not sure yet if that will work due to the XP3 format being a tad bit weird
13:30:58 <unit73e> apparently it has bytes that aren't doing anything, just to create noise
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13:32:39 <unit73e> I guess so "hackers" like me don't extract? not sure. but once I have it with the 'Get' way I'll try a parsec.
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13:33:30 <merijn> unit73e: That libary isn't parsec :)
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13:34:02 <merijn> unit73e: It's a bunch of generic Alternative/MonadPlus combinators that are "parsec like" so you can reuse them with various libraries (most notably, megaparsec just re-exports those)
13:34:10 <merijn> They work as-is with binary's Get
13:34:25 <merijn> (Since Get is Alternative/MonadPlus)
13:34:55 <merijn> Which makes sense, since Get is just another parser combinator library, except focussed on binary data/streams instead of text
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13:36:24 <unit73e> thanks. that will help.
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14:22:31 <merijn> ooh
14:22:47 <merijn> Plan to have WebAssembly for 9.6
14:22:52 <merijn> That's cool
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14:27:27 <yushyin> oO
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14:32:51 <[exa]> whew
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14:34:29 <[exa]> is it the same as asterius from tweag or something entirely different?
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14:36:02 <merijn> [exa]: Plan to merge tweag's asterius based stuff
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14:36:30 <[exa]> ok cool
14:36:36 <merijn> afaict asterius is moving/has moved to rely on the standard RTS more, meaning it's more feasible to merge the fork into mainline
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14:37:28 <[exa]> so maybe the webdev will stop sucking so much, finally. :D
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14:39:33 <unit73e> I've been hearing webassembly wioll solve all the web problems and get rid of javascript but it's taking a lot of time
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14:41:50 <terrorjack> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2022-March/020590.html for the announcement
14:42:32 <merijn> unit73e: There's lots of tiny painful bits
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14:43:36 <merijn> unit73e: For example, while Haskell itself can easily be compiled to webassembly, the GHC runtime assumes all sorts of things, like, you know: having threats, being able to do IO with files, running timers, allocating memory from the OS, etc.
14:44:20 <merijn> so you need to figure out what all is missing in the webassembly sandbox, then reimplement/avoid it somehow, etc.
14:44:29 <merijn> s/threats/threads
14:45:04 <unit73e> must be hard for sure. It's the "JVM done right" so it will take a while.
14:45:14 <terrorjack> hard indeed
14:45:16 <merijn> Now you can just write a new haskell to web assembly compilers (and people have!) I think UHC has *2* JS/web assembly backends
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14:45:55 <carbolymer> is UHC still alive?
14:45:58 <terrorjack> but there were strategic mistakes in the beginning. most important one is attempting to implement GC and other runtime services with hand written JS
14:45:58 <merijn> But then it turns out that, actually, 80% of all Haskell packages want stuff like ByteString and/or Text, whose internals assume they're dealing with GHC, so now *those* are broken
14:46:00 <[exa]> in fact all you need is a library that does the jQuery tricks from haskell, then javascript disappears in 1 year
14:46:01 <merijn> carbolymer: Define alive
14:46:14 <merijn> carbolymer: It's still actively worked on, to the best of my knowledge
14:46:23 <carbolymer> interesting
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14:46:29 <geekosaur> UHC is "alive"in the sense that it's actively worked on, but AFAIK it'sonly used by Utrecht
14:46:45 <merijn> carbolymer: Now, we haven't had an NL-FP day in 2 years due to covid, so I haven't heard about it, but I doubt they stopped in that time frame
14:46:58 <merijn> Especially since there's been an influx of new haskellers in Utrecht
14:47:05 <mason0> @hoogle [a] -> (a -> b) -> [b]
14:47:06 <lambdabot> Miso.Util withFoldable :: Foldable t => t a -> (a -> b) -> [b]
14:47:06 <lambdabot> Data.Functor (<&>) :: Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
14:47:06 <lambdabot> Control.Lens.Lens (<&>) :: Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
14:47:20 <merijn> (I think most of the team work on accelerate (?) moved to utrecht)
14:47:30 <unit73e> oh boy.. remember the time when XML was used for everything? Now it's JS... hopefully that fad is dying.
14:47:30 <mason0> there's no for in base? (flipped map)
14:47:32 <merijn> At least, they've been showing up to our GPU meetups here :p
14:47:48 <merijn> mason0: It's not on lists
14:47:51 <merijn> :t for
14:47:52 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t a -> (a -> f b) -> f (t b)
14:48:02 <mason0> > for [1..10] show
14:48:04 <lambdabot> ["1234567891","1234567890"]
14:48:04 <geekosaur> and it's flipped mapM
14:48:16 <merijn> oh, yeah, for is mapM not map
14:48:35 <merijn> flipped map seems increadibly niche, though
14:48:49 <carbolymer> merijn: uhc's page seems to be down http://foswiki.cs.uu.nl/foswiki/bin/view/UHC/
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14:49:12 <merijn> carbolymer: academic websites are a nightmare :p
14:49:20 <merijn> carbolymer: Ask me again in a month and a half :p
14:49:31 <merijn> That's when NL-FP is organised in Utrecht :p
14:49:43 <carbolymer> ok
14:50:06 <merijn> Which lets me seque into...
14:50:22 <merijn> PSA: if your in travelling distance of Utrecht, don't forget to go to NL-FP ;)
14:50:34 <merijn> https://wouter-swierstra.github.io/fp-dag/
14:51:07 <tomsmeding> merijn: I haven't heard much about active development on UHC, but maybe I'm not in contact with the right people
14:51:35 <geekosaur> https://github.com/UU-ComputerScience/uhc last commit in 2018 but github says last update in August
14:52:20 <merijn> tomsmeding: I mean, UHC isn't in active development in terms of "adding features" it was never really a production compiler as much as it was "a test bed and PoC of attribute grammars"
14:52:50 <tomsmeding> right
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14:54:50 <maerwald> GHC needs competition
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14:55:12 <tomsmeding> yes
14:55:47 <carbolymer> wouldn't that mean fragmentation of efforts and overall slower development of compilers?
14:55:53 carbolymer is looking at linux desktops
14:56:36 <lortabac> or Scheme, or Prolog...
14:56:37 <maerwald> clang improved gcc
14:57:11 <lortabac> IMHO Haskell is not C, it can't afford fragmentation
14:57:16 <maerwald> ahaha
14:57:53 <maerwald> what makes you think the current GHC maintainers would abandon ship just because there's a new compiler around?
14:58:23 <lortabac> it's not about abandoning ship, it's just that the community is too small
14:58:29 <maerwald> clearly, other compiler engineers aren't too thrilled about working with GHC... otherwise they would have done so already
14:58:37 <maerwald> I don't understand
14:59:04 <tomsmeding> yes precisely, I think having a different implementation might encourage more haskell-implementation experimentation
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14:59:38 <merijn> Everyone thinks so. Except the people with money to pay Haskell programmers :p
15:00:01 <lortabac> we would end up with plenty of half-baked compiler prototypes
15:00:10 <tomsmeding> is that a bad thing?
15:00:14 <lortabac> yes
15:00:46 <lortabac> I'd rather see a better GHC than a hundred useless *HC's
15:00:59 <mason0> there are benefits to having just one implementation. writing portable crossplatform code that also works on multiple haskell implementation would likely be hell
15:01:42 <lortabac> just spend a couple of hours on #scheme, everybody is making their own compiler, but nobody has ever **used** Scheme for real
15:02:27 <tomsmeding> lortabac: I think reaching that level of lopsided distribution is not going to happen any time soon with a language as complex as haskell :p
15:02:58 <tomsmeding> you won't find half the world implementing a C compiler without having used C either
15:05:23 <merijn> tomsmeding: tbh, Haskell2010 isn't *that* complex
15:05:32 <tomsmeding> a lot more complex than scheme :p
15:05:40 <merijn> A lot less than C :p
15:05:47 <merijn> And let's not even get started about C++
15:05:56 <tomsmeding> lol C++ is a different league indeed
15:06:15 <lechner> Hi, could someone please upload the docs for Cabal-syntax? Thanks! https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Cabal-syntax
15:06:31 <merijn> I always like the "compilers don't have bugs!" argument about gcc/g++ in other channels
15:06:51 <merijn> How the fuck would you even know if your C++ compiler has bugs?! As if anyone knows what it's supposed to do...
15:07:28 <lechner> never mind. maybe i should have read the "dummy" part
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15:08:00 <geekosaur> I find it interesting they talk about 3.7 being a real package, but there's no 3.7
15:08:07 <lechner> yeah
15:08:55 <merijn> geekosaur: Presumably this was released *ahead* of 3.7 so people can correct their code ahead of release
15:08:55 <tomsmeding> presumably that's the in-development version of Cabal?
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15:09:38 <merijn> since 3.6 was the last release, yes
15:09:40 <lechner> i just need to solve this for the Debian Version tracker https://github.com/obsidiansystems/obelisk/issues/106
15:09:59 <merijn> cabal also uses odd = development, like GHC, no?
15:10:25 <lortabac> I think most people vastly underestimate the effort needed to go from "compiler" to "industrial-strength compiler"
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15:10:58 <geekosaur> merijn,yes
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15:11:17 <geekosaur> last release was 3.4.1.0
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15:11:55 <merijn> no?
15:11:58 <merijn> 3.6 is out
15:12:06 <merijn> has been for a considerable whil
15:12:07 <geekosaur> I mean last release before 3.6
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15:12:12 <merijn> oh
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15:12:35 <merijn> So presumably the Cabal-syntax release is for people dogfooding cabal HEAD
15:12:39 <geekosaur> lechner, that looks solved to me? Cabal went from a home-grown parser to Parsec
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15:13:13 <lechner> geekosaur: maybe, but how to solve this? http://paste.debian.net/1232874/
15:13:47 <merijn> lechner: Use parsec's result datatypes?
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15:14:06 <merijn> Which I'm guessing just uses Either?
15:14:12 <geekosaur> and ideally forget Cabal <2.2 exists
15:14:21 <lechner> i am trying
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15:15:19 <lechner> joachim asked me to maybe take over the version feeding, but as you all well know, I am a newbie
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15:16:06 <maerwald> lortabac: what is industrial-strenght? packed with custom language extensions?
15:16:34 <carbolymer> maerwald: stable, like battle-tested
15:16:47 <maerwald> wait, GHC is stable? :D
15:16:49 <tomsmeding> "bug-free"
15:16:52 <maerwald> lol
15:16:59 <maerwald> that's exactly one thing GHC isn't
15:17:18 <merijn> maerwald: to be fair, neither is any other compiler >.>
15:17:24 <byorgey> software is "industrial-strength" when bugs in that software are capable of crippling an entire industry
15:17:25 <maerwald> merijn: I disagree
15:17:28 <lechner> right now, i use this cabal file http://paste.debian.net/1232875/
15:17:38 <merijn> maerwald: gcc/clang have *tons* of issues outside the happy path
15:17:51 <Franciman> is ghc an insdustrial strength compiler?
15:17:52 <maerwald> GHC is about moving fast, not figuring out how to make it particularly stable
15:17:56 <Franciman> i think so, because they use it
15:18:01 <Franciman> so it's going to be my main target
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15:18:19 <maerwald> so there's another reason we would want a different compiler
15:18:28 <maerwald> you can't have everything in one
15:18:34 <Franciman> mlton seems a good beast to bet on
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15:20:06 <geekosaur> btw lechner as I read that dummy package Cabal-syntax, the only point of using it is so you can use that flag stanza for upward compatibility
15:20:13 <geekosaur> using it by itself is pointless
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15:20:31 <geekosaur> (the flag stanza documented in the package readme)
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15:22:29 <merijn> Opinion poll: Using custom 2 constructor ADTs to replace booleans with semantic names. Yay or nay?
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15:22:57 <tomsmeding> if it's not obvious from the function name and parameter list what the boolean would do
15:22:58 <geekosaur> see "Boolean blindness"
15:23:10 <tomsmeding> I wouldn't want `showParen` to take a non-boolean
15:23:24 <tomsmeding> or `guard`
15:23:29 <geekosaur> I'd generally be in favor just so I know what's going on. and don't have to remember which state True represents
15:23:35 <geekosaur> but it depends on the context
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15:24:21 <merijn> geekosaur: Yeah, that's my thinking. I have a query that optionally filters stuff. Thinking of just doing "data FilterRetries = NoFilter | Filter" or something like that
15:24:28 <Franciman> merijn: would you be confident that ghc works well for compiling a program that runs in a critical system?
15:24:33 <Franciman> totally fail-safe
15:24:47 <merijn> so that I don't have to remember "fooQuery True" does instead of "fooQuery FilterRetries" or something
15:24:48 <tomsmeding> there is a reason certified compilation is a research area
15:25:07 <merijn> Franciman: I wouldn't trust *any* compiler for that, except maybe compcert
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15:25:25 <Franciman> but haskell's tagline is that it's better than others at writing correct code
15:25:27 <Franciman> so...
15:25:29 <Franciman> that's why it matters
15:25:38 <Franciman> i see
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15:26:28 <merijn> Haskell doesn't have a tagline, except maybe "avoid success at all costs" (with ambiguous parentheses)
15:26:34 <Franciman> apparently an industry grade compiler means a compiler that fulfills most of its promises. So for ghc to be industry grade
15:26:41 <Franciman> it has to have much higher standards than other compilers
15:27:36 <tomsmeding> I'm not sure that was ever the goal of GHC
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15:28:07 <tomsmeding> part of the draw of the _language_ haskell is that it allows writing programs in a way that is closer to the specification domain, which makes it easier to make correct
15:28:18 <tomsmeding> and that the language is very good at expression abstraction
15:28:49 <tomsmeding> none of those properties of the language automatically, implicitly, transfer to all implementations of said language
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15:29:39 <tomsmeding> in particular, GHC started as a research compiler, in order to have a centralised implementation for research on compilation techniques for functional languages
15:30:07 <tomsmeding> people are now _using_ GHC as a production compiler, which is a sign that it works better than it could have been
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15:30:51 <tomsmeding> and furthermore it means that people are _interested_ in a production-strength compiler, which is an incentive to either make ghc more production-strength, or make some other compiler that is production-strength
15:30:58 <tomsmeding> it doesn't mean that ghc "must" already be such
15:31:11 <tomsmeding> that is, unless you're paying people to make ghc that
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15:45:12 <geekosaur> but there are those who are paying people to make ghc that
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15:45:33 <geekosaur> well-typed, I think iohk and tweag, etc.
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16:11:54 <WhateverRabbit> geekosaur: they commited at uhc-util 7 months ago
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16:26:13 <merijn> A toast to me from August 2021. Who invested the pain and effort to refactor a bunch of stuff for the feature I need to add now...
16:26:37 <merijn> I spent the entire afternoon dreading to refactor the code to make this work and now it turns out to be trivial. Go me!
16:27:47 <Franciman> i can't wait to test mlton
16:28:08 <Franciman> they promise a lot of nice optimisations
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16:30:24 <carbolymer> just one afternoon? what did you change merijn, add one constructor? ;-]
16:30:50 carbolymer has spent 3 days refactoring the way we're peersisting queues, and I'm nowhere near the half of it
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16:34:36 <merijn> carbolymer: No, I was doing other stuff before getting to the painful bit. But then I already fixed the painful bit months ago :p
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16:34:55 <carbolymer> the painful bits are the most painful
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16:53:08 <Henson> is there a way I can make a type class have an optional function that does not have a default implementation? I'm trying to implement a class for determining whether two types are "close" to each other. I'd like the class to have a function "close" that uses a default tolerance, as well as "closeTol" that allows one to specify the desired tolerance. You could write "close = closeTol 1e-6" ...
16:54:49 <Henson> or something like that, but I'd like "close" to be able to use the "close" implementation of a data types sub-types, assuming they're also instances of close. In certain cases the user might want to override the default behaviour by using the "closeTol" function. But I essentially end up with duplicating the body of the closeTol function. If I define the closeness and type unwrapping logic...
16:55:25 <Henson> in the "close" function, then I lose the ability to specify the tolerance. If I specify it in the "closeTol" function, then I lose the ability to rely on the "closeness" definitions of the subtypes.
16:55:41 <merijn> Henson: What do you mean by "sub-types"?
16:56:41 <Franciman> wooo
16:56:44 <Franciman> quite unexpected for me
16:56:49 <Franciman> mlton produces a faster binary than ghc
16:57:00 <Franciman> for doing the sum of the first 10million numbers
16:57:05 <Henson> merijn: say you've got a type "Point3D = Point3D { point3D_x :: Double, point3D_y :: Double, point3D_z :: Double}". You could define Double as an instance of Close, and then define Point3D as an instance of Close using the "close" function for the doubles.
16:57:17 <Franciman> laziness at its worst?
16:57:25 <Franciman> or probably it's the io primitives
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16:57:40 <merijn> Franciman: mlton does whole program optimisation, GHC does not
16:57:44 <Franciman> yes i know
16:57:49 <merijn> Henson: Sure
16:57:49 <Franciman> oh ghc does not?
16:57:51 <Franciman> sad
16:57:55 <Franciman> well
16:58:00 <Franciman> that's why it is so slow
16:58:04 <merijn> Franciman: No, because compile times for big programs suck
16:58:11 <merijn> (with whole program optimisation)
16:58:12 <Franciman> merijn: can i correct you?
16:58:22 <Franciman> compile times for 3 lines of code suck
16:58:23 <merijn> It also means you can't compile libraries independently
16:58:24 <Franciman> :P
16:58:30 <Franciman> it is very slow
16:58:32 <Franciman> VERY SLOW
16:58:35 <Henson> maybe it knows about N*(N+1)/2 ? :-)
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17:01:31 <merijn> Henson: so the issue is that you want the Close instance for Point3D to default to the default tolerance of Double, but *also* optionally specify your own?
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17:03:02 <Henson> merijn: yes. I considered setting "closeTol = undefined" as the default class definition of that function, but that seems bad. If I didn't define it at all for instances where I'm not interested, I'd get a bunch of compiler warnings.
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17:04:09 <Henson> merijn: because I want the user to know when they're trying to use the closeTol function when it isn't defined. I could also use the default definition as "closeTol _ = close" and simply throw away the tolerance value when it's not defined, but that would make the user unaware of when they're trying to use the closeTol function and the tolerance isn't actually being used.
17:04:29 <Franciman> lol the mlton team is 4 people
17:04:32 <Franciman> it's quite impressive
17:05:07 <Franciman> i guess there are other contributors
17:05:49 <Franciman> my next goal is go over the «why functional programming matters» paper
17:05:56 <Franciman> and try and implement the algorithms there in sml
17:06:12 <Franciman> and try to reach haskell's version performance
17:06:19 <Franciman> in the least amount of work possible
17:06:26 <Henson> Franciman: how do you like SML compared to Haskell?
17:07:13 <Franciman> i don't know sml much, but for now i like it!
17:07:21 <Franciman> the module system seems very cool
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17:07:38 <Franciman> and i like that it has a formal semantics specified, so i can try and implement my interpreter :P
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17:12:35 <Franciman> i also favour the default strictness
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17:16:47 <lechner> Hi, could someone please help me how to replace the outdated constructor ThisVersion in this pattern with the more modern thisVersion? https://github.com/nomeata/hpvt/blob/master/PlatformOutput.hs#L50
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17:35:24 <dolio> lechner: Maybe you should just import the .Internal module that exports the constructor.
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17:39:37 <dolio> Otherwise you have to use one of the fold functions provided in the 'official' interface, but those just seem more cumbersome for what you're doing there.
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17:50:11 <lechner> dolio: Hi, can i use the more modern, lower-case 'thisVersion' outside the pattern?
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17:51:55 <dolio> Most likely.
17:52:38 <dolio> It seems that the constructors are hidden because there is some denormalization about how certain versions are represented.
17:54:01 <dolio> Although the 'cataVersionRange' stuff provides the full information, so I guess I don't quite get it.
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18:00:57 <Topsi> For (>>=) we have the name `bind`. Is there such a name for (>>)?
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18:01:21 <dolio> "And then"?
18:01:58 <WhateverRabbit> "And then" it is literally bind
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18:02:23 <Topsi> Would it make sense to call it seq or monadic seq?
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18:03:22 <WhateverRabbit> foo.andThen(x => bar(x).andThen(y => baz(y)))
18:05:18 <WhateverRabbit> You can't call it seq because there is such function, but i think monadic seq iss pretty good choice
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18:06:26 <Franciman> how can i enable LTO in ghc?
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18:31:40 <Franciman> lol ghc is losing damn hard at mlton
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18:31:58 <lechner> why does this 'where' occur before buildDependsMap is actually used? https://github.com/nomeata/hpvt/blob/master/PlatformOutput.hs#L49
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18:33:11 <merijn> ??
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18:33:21 <dolio> It's the `where` for `mkTable`.
18:33:24 <merijn> The where belongs to mkTable
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18:33:55 <merijn> man...some long term Haskellers really write some godawful looking code >.>
18:34:01 <lechner> why symbol is being defined by the clause(s)
18:34:05 <lechner> which
18:34:46 <Franciman> topkek
18:35:47 <merijn> lechner: There's 8 being defined in that block
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18:37:30 <lechner> which one is being used for mkTable?
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18:38:32 <merijn> hmm?
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18:39:20 <lechner> isn't the 'where' a "post-let"?
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18:40:04 <merijn> not in any way that is sensible to me
18:40:47 <merijn> where introduces a block of bindings associated with the preceding binding/module definition
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18:43:55 <lechner> but what is the point of bind "buildDependsMap pd" when it is not being used?
18:44:00 <lechner> binding
18:44:17 <merijn> It is being used?
18:44:32 <lechner> before the 'where'?
18:44:49 <merijn> Yes. Indirectly
18:45:18 <merijn> buildDependsMap is used in the binding of maps, which is used in the binding of pkgs, which is used
18:46:02 <lechner> i see
18:46:16 <lechner> it may be easier to find america
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18:50:34 <Franciman> i can't tell you how happy i am
18:50:43 <Franciman> to try the examples in why functional programming matters
18:50:47 <Franciman> they are so cool
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19:04:16 <janus> lechner: how would you prefer to have this code written? with more top-level definitions?
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19:05:07 <janus> i like having bindings defined such that later definitions depend on earlier ones, and this code does that
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19:06:55 <lechner> as a newbie, i think i need more top-level functions
19:07:08 <janus> and imho there is an argument for having bindings *not* be top-level, such that you know where the function can be used
19:07:27 <lechner> to preserve the name space?
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19:08:04 <lechner> why can this not be top-level? https://github.com/nomeata/hpvt/blob/master/PlatformOutput.hs#L85
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19:09:03 <janus> it could be, but as mentioned, because it is *not* top-level, you also know that it can't be e.g. exported and used in other modules
19:09:59 <janus> the name showVcmp would probably be unique anyway, so namespacing isn't necessarily an issue
19:10:04 <AndreasK> Everything can be top level by making the free vars arguments if you really want to. For the binding you linked I don't think it matters much
19:10:51 <AndreasK> For bigger modules it can help by making it obvious something is only used in one function.
19:11:22 <lechner> i actually do not not have strong opinion. i just can't figure out how to replace the deprecated ThisVersion with the modern thisVersion. I think that's because I misunderstand pattern matching, wich used so extensively here
19:11:54 <lechner> in fact, the error is PlatformOutput.hs:50:42: error: Parse error in pattern: thisVersion
19:12:38 <lechner> i think one is a type, and the other a function, but i could be wrong about that too
19:13:13 <janus> there is punning in Haskell, so ThisVersion can be both a data constructor (value level) and a type (type level)
19:13:43 <janus> if you had "newtype ThisVersion = ThisVersion String", the first occurance is the type level name, and the second occurrance is the value level name
19:13:56 <monochrom> Where can I see "thisVersion" in actual code?
19:14:10 <lechner> i just replaced it
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19:14:44 <monochrom> Ugh do you mean the equivalent of "I have this code 'f (Just x) = x' and I simply s/Just/just/"?
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19:16:20 <lechner> i am trying to make sense of this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Cabal-1.20.0.1/docs/Distribution-Version.html#t:VersionRange
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19:16:55 <lechner> thisVersion also take a Version and produces a VersionRange
19:17:00 <lechner> takes
19:17:38 <lechner> but the function cannot go into the pattern i do not think
19:17:47 <dolio> `thisVersion` is only a replacement for building VersionRanges.
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19:18:09 <lechner> as opposed to?
19:18:16 <monochrom> Perhaps you will have to look into foldVersionRange
19:18:32 <dolio> The other things in the deprecation message are ways of taking them apart.
19:18:48 <monochrom> And that's right it also means you can't use pattern matching.
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19:20:30 <lechner> what does the pattern match achieve here, conceptually, that a function cannot?
19:20:55 <monochrom> It is similar to "maybe" (it does the patterns Nothing and Just x for you) and "either" (it does the patterns Left x and Right y for you).
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19:22:06 <lechner> does the original code save a conditional because of it?
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19:22:22 <monochrom> And then there is always the null hypothesis of "this is merely deprecated, we need not really avoid it for now"
19:22:33 <merijn> lechner: I mean, that'd be up to you to figure out, since you're the one trying to modify it, no? :)
19:22:55 <lechner> is this a place to come for help?
19:23:56 <lechner> the distribution info for debian on hackage is three years old. this code will update it
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19:25:13 <geekosaur> I am tempted to say, from the questions I'm seeing from you in backscroll, that a quick trip through cis194 will help you
19:25:50 <merijn> Yes, no, maybe, it depends. The likelihood of help correlates how much personal effort people here have to invest to answer a question. "what can a pattern match achieve conceptually that a function cannot" is so wildly open ended I don't know where to begin and thus can't be arsed
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19:28:08 <monochrom> I know where to end though. "Learn Haskell" :)
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19:29:04 <monochrom> But I have already pointed to the simpler examples of "maybe" and "either". foldVersionRange is just the same concept on steroid.
19:29:36 <janus> lechner: sure this is a place for help, but if the questions demonstrate that you havn't done the basic exercises people will be less inclined... i think cis194 is a good recommendation even though i havn't tried it myself
19:30:01 <janus> i just tried to find a good section on pattern matching and data constructors in LYAH but i couldn't :O
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19:30:21 <janus> i just love the cute pictures in LYAH too much, but maybe it isn't actually a good book :P
19:30:26 <merijn> janus: that's because LYAH's just objectively "not that good" :)
19:30:31 <janus> yeah i know people say that
19:30:35 <janus> but they pictures are so cute
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19:31:50 <janus> and then i thought, people say that the Gentle Introduction is absolutely Brutal, and sure enough, it was so concise i couldn't even find a chapter on how pattern matching and data constructors fit together
19:32:08 <merijn> janus: The Gentle Intro assumes a background in ML-style languages
19:32:24 <merijn> janus: so it assumes pattern matching is something obvious you're used to
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19:34:01 <geekosaur> yeh. I found it not so brutal but I had some SMLNJ experience
19:40:22 <monochrom> A whole chapter on just that would be overkill OTOH.
19:40:54 <monochrom> Unless the reader actively wants to be active insulted by being condescended to.
19:41:04 <janus> well i was thinking about how there are so many ways to express the same thing with patterns for records
19:41:43 <janus> LambdaCase, NamedFieldPuns, RecordWildCards, using the record constructor with positions instead of field names (how do i properly refer to that?)
19:42:51 <janus> and that's not even getting into bidirectional patterns synonyms or ViewPatterns
19:43:07 <dolio> I wouldn't expect any book to cover that.
19:44:26 <dolio> Half a dozen different convenient syntaxes for records is not really essential to understanding pattern matching.
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19:45:58 <janus> agreed, i am just saying that a chapter could be written if one was so inclined :P
19:46:21 <telser_> If any book tried to cover all the extensions applicable to any given topic.. nobody would read that book for sheer length.
19:48:34 <monochrom> A whole chapter devoted to the concepts of algebraic data types is about right. Pattern matching is just a corollary.
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19:52:39 <kaol> I'm doing some PTY programming with Haskell. Because why not. Some newer terminal emulators have decided that SGR 1 no longer changes colors, leading to some less than useful things like bold black text on black background. So I made a thingy that runs another program and reinterprets SGR 1 to use colors in range 90-97 instead.
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19:54:03 <WhateverRabbit> telser_: you can read a GHC user guide instead
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19:54:27 <monochrom> Indeed, nobody reads that book for sheer length. >:)
19:54:33 <monochrom> (OK I lied. I read it.)
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19:54:47 <geekosaur> I both read it and keep it open for reference
19:54:57 <geekosaur> but I know I'ma rare bird there
19:55:30 <monochrom> (But it's the #1 reason why people ask on IRC instead of knowing that the questions are already answered there, very directly too.)
19:55:54 <dolio> Yeah, the users guide is the book on that. The point of other books is to get you the background to just look at the users guide for things you want.
19:56:10 <dolio> You don't need a separate book to include an outdated snapshot of the users guide.
19:56:12 <merijn> I've said it before: Not enough people read the GHC User's Guide
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19:56:28 <merijn> Like, if you do any amount of Haskell programming, just skim it once a year
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19:59:00 <telser> Yes my point was if another book started to include all the extensions you would end up so long it wouldn't be read, similar to the users guide
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19:59:50 <monochrom> The secret recipe of success for a lot of us is that on day 1, we take a look at the table of contents and remember it. (We don't need to read the whole book on day 1.) Then years later, when we need something, we know where to look.
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20:00:14 <monochrom> Then again, success recipes are written by the victors :)
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20:02:41 <geekosaur> lechner: please understand that we're not trying to be condescending. you look like you've been tossed into a project and you're in over your head. and it shows in e.g. your not really understanding Haskell's pattern matching
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20:03:33 <geekosaur> were I you, I'd start out by going through CIS194 to get the basics, then something like Real World Haskell to see how to use it in actual projects, before trying to refactor someone else's project
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20:03:45 <geekosaur> @where CIS194
20:03:45 <lambdabot> https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html
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20:03:50 <geekosaur> @where RWH
20:03:50 <lambdabot> http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/
20:05:13 <geekosaur> this is made worse by the fact that Haskell is very different not only from commonly usedlanguages, but even than other languages in its own language family. So experience from other languages can be useless or (even worse) potentially misleading
20:05:23 <geekosaur> this is *not* easy!
20:06:35 <geekosaur> and trying to refactor someone else'scodebase is close to the worst possible way to get a handle on a new lnaguage, especially one so different from whatyou're used to
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20:07:40 <lechner> i think i do understand it pattern matching. i use it, however clumsily, with some frequncy. https://salsa.debian.org/lintian/detagtive/-/blob/history/qa-list/GenerateQAList.hs#L160-161
20:08:58 <lechner> my issue is (1) that i don't get the 'where' and (2) that my fascination with haskell exceeds my abilities, but the latter is pretty common i think
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20:16:58 <lechner> and if pattern matching is such a great technique, why did someone go through great length to hide this particular constructor, please? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Cabal-3.6.2.0/docs/Distribution-Types-VersionRange-Internal.html
20:17:18 <geekosaur> usually for flexibility
20:17:27 <geekosaur> there are many upsides to pattern matching
20:17:36 <geekosaur> one downside is it doesn't handle things like ranges well
20:17:51 <geekosaur> and the code you've been showing us wants to deal with version ranges
20:18:24 <geekosaur> in paritcular, anything that has a runtime component such as an iteration or a range is not well suited to a pattern match
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20:18:46 <monochrom> For abstraction. And in turn, abstraction is for "what if one day I want to change an internal detail that shouldn't matter outside?"
20:19:37 <monochrom> For example you can see that Data.Ratio does not expose its data constructor even though it could.
20:21:41 <lechner> is f x,y the same as f (x,y) please?
20:22:16 <dolio> No.
20:22:47 <janus> "f x,y" is not an expression
20:23:16 <lechner> what is this, please? https://github.com/nomeata/hpvt/blob/master/PlatformOutput.hs#L50
20:23:31 <[exa]> that's in parentheses
20:23:35 <tomsmeding> that's a pair with two items: fromCabal pkg, and ver
20:23:36 <[exa]> parses as ((f x), (y))
20:23:37 <lechner> (f x, y) ?
20:23:49 <lechner> great!
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20:26:56 <reactormonk[m]> How do I combine two prisms pointing to the same type (but different fields) into one?
20:28:11 <[exa]> reactormonk[m]: by "combining" you mean something like getting a prism to a tuple of the two?
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20:29:36 <reactormonk[m]> More that I can modify both at the same time with a traversal
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20:38:29 <[exa]> hm that should work but I can't remember if it has a name
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20:40:43 <reactormonk[m]> The untainted here? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17528119/combining-lenses
20:42:54 <[exa]> yeah looks like the /\ from the second answer there could work
20:43:57 <[exa]> hm that should be doable for [] too
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20:49:27 <xdej> g
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20:54:45 <[exa]> reactormonk[m]: this might be relevant https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/109#issuecomment-10668862
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21:56:55 <remexre> if I'm getting a segfault from some native code I link to, is there a good way to get a _haskell_ stack trace?
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22:34:47 <Franciman> so the problem was that foldr is too lazy
22:35:08 <Franciman> switching to foldl' made it faster than mlton
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22:39:48 <monochrom> Whenever this happens, the cost of foldr is not just laziness. I.e., even in mlton, foldr would have a high cost.
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23:26:20 <Axman6> reactormonk[m]: IIRC doing that isn't really encouraged as it can make the optic unlawful; if they happen to point to the same location you get problems with the laws (though probably pretty predictable results). if you're just getting with the optic, then (<>) works I think
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23:26:41 <Axman6> % toListOf (_1 <> _2) (1,2)
23:26:41 <yahb> Axman6: [1,2]
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All times are in UTC on 2022-03-03.