Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-03-07 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:02:36 × Inst quits (~Liam@2601:6c4:4080:3f80:d0ab:3f36:53e6:70a6) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:02:43 <ski> shapr : since a couple of days :)
00:02:53 <shapr> wow, I'm out of the loop
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00:16:55 <shlevy[m]> Would it be hard to allow visible dependent quantifiers in types of terms but only allow usage of type variables and type-level constants at the call-site? Basically anything you can currently do with TypeApplications but without requiring the `@`?
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00:25:55 <geekosaur> I believe that's due in ghc 9.4
00:26:03 <geekosaur> forall a -> ...
00:26:18 <shlevy[m]> geekosaur: We already have that in kinds
00:26:33 <shlevy[m]> Is there a relaxation to allow it in the type of a term coming?
00:27:02 <geekosaur> you have it in kinds because there's nodifference between a kind and a type (see TypeInType)
00:27:36 <geekosaur> 9.4 adds using types as values: given `x :: forall a -> Int -> Int` you can have `x Int 3`
00:27:47 <geekosaur> (note the arrow instead of `.`)
00:28:39 <shlevy[m]> geekosaur: My point is we *already* allow the arrow instead of the dot in the types of types, i.e. in kinds. That's why I wanted to confirm that we have something new coming in 9.4 specifically for types of terms
00:31:54 <shlevy[m]> This works:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2793fe47d70f95bd4f0b04856db57c5ab892b0d0)
00:32:04 <shlevy[m]> s///
00:32:52 <shlevy[m]> This fails:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/5bfbb4cc489d39d6453229737436433bfeb9f733)
00:33:39 <geekosaur> I said 9.4
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00:33:49 <geekosaur> 9.2.2 was released about an hour ago
00:34:22 <geekosaur> also, as best I can tell you are asking if Dependent Haskell exists yet. the answer is "no, and it won't for some time yet"
00:34:33 <shlevy[m]> No, this is not dependent haskell
00:34:53 <shlevy[m]> As I said, it would be limited to type variables and constants, just like TypeApplications
00:35:15 <shlevy[m]> This is no more expressive than current invisible dependent quantification except in terms of ergonomics
00:35:34 <shlevy[m]> Do you have a link for the 9.4 change?
00:36:21 <geekosaur> https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0081-forall-arrow.rst
00:36:53 <shlevy[m]> geekosaur: Again, *this is already in 9.2*. Check my first example which does compile, it has the forall arrow
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00:37:34 <geekosaur> okay, then I missed something. I had understood it to be a9.4change
00:38:08 <geekosaur> you probably want to talk to eisenberg about what you're asking
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03:29:04 <dons> oh man got a 80cm monitor. what a game changer.
03:29:34 <dolio> What did you have before?
03:29:47 <dons> oh, i've been on the road for a few months, so living off laptop screens.
03:30:03 <dolio> Oh yeah. Much nicer than that. :)
03:30:05 <dons> mostly on 16" macbook
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03:32:47 <dons> so at 32"/80cm you can comfortably have 3x2 124col terms in a grid
03:33:08 <dons> or 4x2 @ 92cols
03:33:28 <dons> (accounting for fontsize at my aging eyesight)
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03:34:05 <sm> congrats!
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04:11:51 <Axman6> dons: yeah I couldn't do my current job without a monitor that big, I recently needed to have a 3x2 grid of three different files (each split in two) just to begin to understand the code I'm trying to replace. Turns out you csn write Java in Haskell if you try hard enough
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04:58:01 <Axman6> @where ops
04:58:01 <lambdabot> byorgey Cale conal copumpkin dcoutts dibblego dolio edwardk geekosaur glguy jmcarthur johnw mniip monochrom quicksilver shachaf shapr ski
04:58:10 <Axman6> ops: cc123652345762x ^
04:59:11 <dibblego> gawn
04:59:23 <Axman6> flaky connection though
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05:00:20 litharge sets mode +b cc123652345762!~cc1236523@116.24.67.150##fix-your-connection
05:00:27 <Axman6> <3
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07:42:27 <Cheery> wow. catched a bug with code coverage.
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07:43:43 <Cheery> now I'm wondering whether there's a tool to diff code coverage graphs.
07:43:52 <Cheery> I did it visually by comparing markups.
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07:48:47 <dminuoso> Cheery: You can probably jury rig something together with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tree-diff
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10:00:11 <kuribas> Would it be possible to have an "easy" language, that still has the advantages of haskell?
10:00:41 <kuribas> Like making side-effects explicit, easy concurrency, function composition, ...
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10:00:58 <kuribas> But without requiring everything to be a monad or monad transformer, using folds for everything...
10:01:41 <dminuoso> Nothing requires you to use monad transformers.
10:01:47 <dminuoso> That's just a choice people make.
10:02:01 <dminuoso> Take a look at GHC, its essentially just a big ball of IO
10:02:10 <kuribas> Well, at least you will want ReaderT r IO, no?
10:02:15 <Inst> it's just a standard, as some people say, Haskell is more a metalanguage (in the sense that you have 20 different ways to do something) than a language
10:02:27 <dminuoso> kuribas: You can pass dictionaries/dependencies explicitly or use global IORefs.
10:02:34 <dminuoso> The same as with any other language.
10:04:00 <kuribas> so that language is haskell, minus the complicated parts?
10:04:56 <kuribas> And instead of EitherT use exceptions?
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10:08:09 <lortabac> kuribas: I have thought about this for a long time, I think a "simpler Haskell" would need a couple of built-in features for things that we do at library level
10:08:27 <kuribas> and be strict probably
10:09:04 <lortabac> specifically, better support for implicit parameters (to avoid Reader), some syntactic sugar for State (something like Prolog's DCG's)
10:09:18 <lortabac> and built-in lenses or at least better records
10:09:37 <kuribas> extensible records like purescript?
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10:10:31 <lortabac> not necessarily extensible, but it should at least allow duplicated fields, maybe through some built-in constraint like HasField
10:11:17 <lortabac> actually I had started working on such a language, but I don't have the time (nor probably the skills) to complete the work alone
10:11:38 <lortabac> and I'm not even sure the world needs yet another programming language
10:12:01 <lortabac> after all, it might be more reasonable to just learn to live with Haskell's quirks
10:12:46 <merijn> The world needs load more programming languages
10:12:54 <merijn> As long as they aren't boring reskins of C/Java
10:13:17 <dminuoso> lortabac: Im not convinced HasField is going to make things better.
10:13:44 <dminuoso> One of the major issues Haskell has is how we encode these things via typeclasses, at the great cost of extremely poor diagnostics.
10:13:56 <dminuoso> Rather than "X has no field XYZ" you get failed constrained errors
10:14:18 <lortabac> dminuoso: to be clear, we are talking about an imaginary new language which is simpler than Haskell
10:14:27 <lortabac> not about using HasField in Haskell
10:14:45 <kuribas> merijn: or crappy dynamic languages where proper semantics are an afterthought.
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10:15:56 <lortabac> personally I'd just propose a new language if it offers some substantial improvement/advantage/use case over the existing ones
10:16:16 <lortabac> if it's just Haskell minus transformers I'm hesitant to advertise it to the world
10:16:32 <dminuoso> I dont think this "minus transformers" proposition is really important.
10:16:43 <kuribas> Maybe something like f# is more suitable for mainstream?
10:16:51 <dminuoso> f# is a nasty piece of work
10:17:03 <lortabac> I do think transformers are a big obstacle to simplicity in Haskell
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10:18:11 <dminuoso> lortabac: transformers are not a necessity. they are just some overhead when deciphering other peoples code.
10:18:17 <dminuoso> Except ReaderT perhaps
10:18:34 <kuribas> dminuoso: they are convenient to create parsers for example.
10:18:45 <kuribas> Not necessary, but they can take away the builerplate.
10:18:47 <dminuoso> Not as transformers.
10:18:54 <dminuoso> parsers are usually handcrafted monads.
10:19:18 <dminuoso> megaparsec is a bit odd since it gives you a whole transformer, but you dont have to actually use it
10:19:19 <kuribas> Perhaps, but I find it easier to create them using mtl.
10:19:40 <lortabac> they are a necessity, because whatever abstraction you come up with, you need to know how to compose it with existing abstractions, and that usually involves transformers
10:19:41 <kuribas> Saves me from the plumbing, plus it's more likely to be correct, easier to adapt, etc...
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10:20:03 <kuribas> lortabac: perhaps a language could have effects builtin, and use transformer under the hood?
10:20:07 <dminuoso> lortabac: I dont know about that, over the past 3 years Ive successfully managed with just ReaderT (and that's just for convenience)
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10:20:23 <dminuoso> Writing composable software is somewhat orthogonal to transformers
10:20:35 <lortabac> kuribas: yes, more built-in effects is the idea that I explored with my language
10:21:26 <kuribas> dminuoso: one problem I found nicely solved with monads and applicatives is validation/error reporting. How would you do it without effects?
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10:21:54 <kuribas> Just use a IORef to collect them?
10:22:00 <dminuoso> Yes.
10:22:13 <kuribas> Then there is still the problem that I would to collect all errors.
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10:22:28 <dminuoso> This is how we have warnings, failable and fatal errors in our large project
10:22:38 <kuribas> Foo <$> trythis <*> andthat <*> alsoThat.
10:22:52 <dminuoso> Write a custom monad instance
10:23:00 <dminuoso> The advantage is nobody has to understand bizarre interactions of monad transformers
10:23:06 <dminuoso> You can look at what >> does in my code
10:23:12 <kuribas> If I throw with trythis, I don't see the error of "andthat" and "alsoThat".
10:23:27 <dminuoso> I also have >|> for example, which only proceeds if no failable erros are set
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10:24:12 <kuribas> Isn't that just <*> though?
10:24:15 <merijn> monad transformers are pretty okay
10:24:24 <merijn> exposing them as part of your public API is the problem
10:24:31 <dminuoso> kuribas: No the point is I have this:
10:25:44 <dminuoso> kuribas: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/be53ec068306073650802d157ea02e5a
10:26:53 <dminuoso> So now I have >> which simply proceeds irrespective of errors, and then I construct phases that can only pass if no errors are set using >|>
10:27:07 <dminuoso> sort of like `(f >> g >> h) >|> (x >> y >> z)`
10:27:34 <dminuoso> So in my case, I dont even need a custom monad instance.
10:27:37 <dminuoso> It's just plain IO
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10:29:42 <kuribas> hmm, something like that could work...
10:30:11 <kuribas> It'll be more beginner friendly, but still nicely composable.
10:31:02 <kuribas> maybe I could use a newtype over IO to get validation like behaviour.
10:31:22 <kuribas> dminuoso: what is Comp?
10:31:29 <kuribas> Comp is not IO, is it?
10:31:35 <dminuoso> 1newtype Comp e a = Comp { runComp :: ReaderT (CompEnv e) IO a
10:32:03 <kuribas> so a transformer :)
10:32:23 <dminuoso> Sure, but its not really necesary
10:32:34 <dminuoso> But for the convenience of monad you need either this or global IORefs
10:32:49 <dminuoso> Or you parametrize everything
10:33:21 <dminuoso> The key thing is, we just use ReaderT and isomorphic things so we have access to MonadUnliftIO
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11:53:17 <kuribas> is there a "simple" alternative to Endo?
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11:53:42 <kuribas> I really like Endo, since you can represent partial information in a typesafe way.
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11:59:13 <byorgey> kuribas: what is it about Endo that isn't simple enough?
11:59:28 <kuribas> byorgey: it scares beginners...
12:02:27 <byorgey> ah.
12:02:58 <kuribas> But I think there are far more scary things in imperative programs than Endo...
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12:05:46 <maerwald> kuribas: can you tell me the result of `appEndo "Haskell" $ Endo ("Hello, " ++) <> Endo (++ "?") <> Endo ("!" ++)` without squinting a few times? :p
12:06:44 <kuribas> type error?
12:06:58 <kuribas> btw, for strings I would use DList.
12:07:21 <maerwald> no, it works =)
12:07:48 <maerwald> tldr: Endo *is* confusing, depending on how you use it
12:08:05 <maerwald> similarly to ContT
12:08:11 <kuribas> > appEndo "foo" $ Endo ("bar" ++)
12:08:12 <lambdabot> error:
12:08:12 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Endo (Endo [Char])’
12:08:12 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[Char]’
12:08:28 <kuribas> type error
12:08:43 <maerwald> flip appEndo
12:08:59 <kuribas> maerwald: so don't do that? Use DList.
12:09:15 <maerwald> that doesn't make Endo better :p
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12:09:48 <kuribas> <maerwald> tldr: Endo *is* confusing, depending on how you use it
12:09:52 <kuribas> So don't use it like that.
12:09:55 <kuribas> problem solved.
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12:10:32 <kuribas> maerwald: do you hammer nails using a screwdriver?
12:10:34 <maerwald> well, then you could argue imperative programming is fine as well, if you use it sensibly
12:10:39 <maerwald> yet, here we are
12:11:28 <kuribas> I mean, for some cases it "is" fine.
12:12:57 <kuribas> if you have a proper architecture, people who know what they do, not strong demands on correcness, imperative is also fine.
12:13:07 <kuribas> Just not something which I personally like to program with.
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12:25:31 <dminuoso> 12:59:13 byorgey | kuribas: what is it about Endo that isn't simple enough?
12:25:33 <dminuoso> Its uses
12:25:42 <dminuoso> foldr f z t = appEndo (foldMap (Endo #. f) t) z
12:26:09 <dminuoso> It's hard to decipher what happens
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12:43:03 <int-e> Well, read (#.) as (.); once you do that, foldr f z [a,b,c] = (f a . f b . f c) z seems to be the hardest step in understanding that. :-P
12:43:56 <int-e> You have to know about 3 abstractions. That's a serious barrier to understanding it from scratch, obviously.
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12:48:21 <kuribas> dminuoso: But is it the concept of Endo which is difficult, or the use in this case?
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12:53:59 <dminuoso> int-e: Of course, if you are able to inline definitions in your head always.. :)
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13:20:13 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: even if you can, it's wasted intellectual energy. Wasn't that the reason we abandoned imperative programming because reasoning about global state is just too hard?
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13:25:57 <merijn> I mean, you can do imperative programming without global state...
13:26:01 <merijn> See IO
13:26:12 <kuribas> It's global complexity vs local complexity. I find often haskell code is locally complex, like it takes some time to understand how a function or abstraction works. However, globally it becomes more modular and easy to reason about.
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13:27:54 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: There's certainly something to that. The complexity of trying to get LoggingT into servant is quite absurd.
13:28:31 <dminuoso> If on the other hand we had a logger using global state, things get real simple,.
13:28:51 <kuribas> logger using ReaderT is pretty easy as well.
13:28:56 <kuribas> No need for global state
13:29:04 <dminuoso> kuribas: With servant?
13:29:10 <dminuoso> If you know how, its easy yes.
13:29:44 <kuribas> If you already have ReaderT, adding a logger is easy.
13:29:54 <maerwald[m]> merijn: that's exactly the point. You can do sensible imperative programming, but... you're not forced to.
13:30:25 <dminuoso> kuribas: That's my point, getting a ReaderT/LoggingT into servant requires special combinators and the code looks incredibly scary.
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13:31:56 <maerwald[m]> kuribas: global complexity can very easily leak into Haskell programs too, eg when the primary state is your filesystem
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13:32:43 <maerwald[m]> Or a blockchain xD
13:32:56 <romesrf> is there a way to constrain a type family? say: type family F a, but all instances of F a must satisfy Monoid (F a)
13:33:10 <romesrf> type family (Monoid F a) => F a :P
13:33:27 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: you can use your own app monad in servant
13:33:38 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: of course, Im not saying its impossible
13:33:47 <dminuoso> We do this in all our servant apps
13:33:48 <maerwald[m]> https://docs.servant.dev/en/stable/cookbook/using-custom-monad/UsingCustomMonad.html
13:33:53 <dminuoso> Yeah I know
13:34:13 <merijn> romesrf: Not really?
13:34:14 <maerwald[m]> It gets complicated when there's no existing instance
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13:34:26 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: So if I was a curious newbie I might be tempted to look at this:
13:34:33 <dminuoso> genericServeTWithContext :: forall (routes :: * -> *) (m :: * -> *) (ctx :: [*]). (GenericServant routes (AsServerT m), GenericServant routes AsApi, HasServer (ToServantApi routes) ctx, HasContextEntry (ctx .++ DefaultErrorFormatters) ErrorFormatters, ServerT (ToServantApi routes) m ~ ToServant routes (AsServerT m)) => (forall a. m a -> Handler a) hoistServer argument to come back to Handler
13:34:33 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: see https://github.com/haskell-servant/servant/issues/1544
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13:34:35 <dminuoso> -> routes (AsServerT m) your record full of request handlers -> Context ctx the Context to serve the application with -> Application
13:34:37 <romesrf> I see hahaha
13:34:44 <dminuoso> And at that point I might as well give up and declare Python is simpler.
13:34:48 <hololeap> where does the Paths_pkgname module come from?
13:34:56 <dminuoso> Because writing a flask api certainly doesnt impose these crazy things on me
13:35:25 <maerwald[m]> First time writing a HasClient instance is confusing
13:35:50 <hololeap> I see "autogen-modules: Paths_fay" in fay.cabal
13:36:00 <maerwald[m]> HasServer rather
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13:38:13 <geekosaur> hololeap, cabal generates it
13:39:20 <geekosaur> https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-package.html#autogenerated-modules-and-includes
13:39:31 <merijn> hololeap: It's auto-generated by cabal
13:39:50 <hololeap> geekosaur: my problem is that fay-tests is giving errors about not finding the fay modules in the search locations, which are wrong
13:40:17 <merijn> hololeap: Can you link the cabal file?
13:40:19 <hololeap> and the only place I can find where these search locations are coming from is getDataFileName, which I guess is imported from Paths_fay
13:40:58 <geekosaur> https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-package.html#accessing-data-files-from-package-code
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13:41:40 <geekosaur> I don't think that gives full detail though, there aresome tricks to try to enable it to work with both installed modules and whilee.g. testing
13:41:48 <geekosaur> those tricks may not always work,sadly
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13:42:25 <geekosaur> if you're having problems with it, best bet might be to ask in #hackage
13:43:14 <hololeap> I'm just trying to figure out how to override that function, or at least append the correct path to the source dir
13:43:27 <merijn> hololeap: You can do so via environment variables
13:43:43 <merijn> hololeap: But overall: insufficient context
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13:48:58 <hololeap> merijn: https://github.com/faylang/fay/blob/master/fay.cabal
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13:49:31 <hololeap> merijn: I'm trying to run the test suite locally, but I'm hitting errors like this, because it's searching for the source in the wrong paths: https://dpaste.com/5LEZ4NDFQ
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13:51:59 <merijn> How was Fay installed?
13:52:35 <hololeap> it's just sitting in dist/
13:53:04 <merijn> First observation: fay-tests doesn't list an autogen-module for Paths_fay
13:53:12 <merijn> But does list itself as using it
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13:56:13 <hololeap> ok, I think I made a little headway here and found where the paths are actually being pulled from. thanks for the info geekosaur, merijn
13:56:49 <merijn> hololeap: How are you running the tests, btw?
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14:01:33 <hololeap> it's pretty convoluted, but I have fay and fay-base built, and I'm running the fay-tests exe
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14:02:47 <merijn> Directly, you mean?
14:03:04 <hololeap> yes
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14:04:21 <hololeap> it's actually a PoC to see if I can get a test suite like this working as part of a gentoo package
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14:05:32 <merijn> hololeap: Try using "cabal run" instead
14:05:57 <merijn> It sets up the Paths module correctly for running from the *build* dir, rather than the final install dir
14:06:34 <hololeap> oh interesting. any idea if there is an equivalent for cabal-v1?
14:06:48 <merijn> hololeap: If you didn't install then Paths is probably looking in the install dir, where it isn't yet, if you didn't install
14:07:21 <merijn> oh, you're trying to use Paths from v1 to access stuff without actually installing? My professional assessment is: RIP you
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14:08:16 <geekosaur> actually the Paths machinery predates cabal 2+, and there is a cabal v1-run. I'd say try it
14:08:36 <geekosaur> (including stuff to work from uninstalled state as merijn described)
14:08:38 <reactormonk[m]> If I have two `Prism a' b'`, both pointing to a different part of an AST, can I smash them together into a single `Prism' a b` or `Traversal' a b`?
14:08:45 <merijn> geekosaur: I know, but I know hvr did a bunch of working to make Paths work correctly without installing
14:09:31 <geekosaur> yeh.tbh though I would not be surprised if v1-run is just an alias for v2-run
14:09:55 <geekosaur> Paths_can't be generated differently for v1 vs. v2
14:09:55 <hololeap> there doesn't seem to be any equivalent for ./setup
14:10:12 <geekosaur> no, setup won't do that
14:10:16 <hololeap> it's not a big deal though, guys. if I don't get this working I'll just move on
14:11:06 <hololeap> although if you have any knowledge of an env variable that would override these paths, I would like to know
14:11:36 <geekosaur> were I you I would want to move away from Setup anyway. it's optional in many packages these days, and cabal has an act-as-setup internal command to replace it
14:12:08 <geekosaur> there'sa pretty strong move to make Setup go away
14:12:38 <geekosaur> they may always need to support build-type: custom, but as much as possible they want to avoid it
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14:13:28 <hololeap> hm, yeah it's a bummer the main person who set all this gentoo machinery up is gone. but I think the reason why Setup.hs is used is in case cabal-install hasn't been installed
14:14:05 <hololeap> there's a bootstrapping function in the scripts that generates Setup.hs if it doesn't exist
14:17:12 <merijn> I mean gentoo's use of Setup.hs is actually the intentional use-case for Setup.hs existing, so...
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14:19:07 <maerwald[m]> Setup.hs is the only unix style interface there is
14:19:25 <maerwald[m]> I don't see that ever going away
14:19:45 <maerwald[m]> Even stack relies on it
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14:23:54 <shapr> GOOD MORNING
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14:36:49 <romesrf> how could I import a type instance from a module?
14:36:54 <romesrf> import Module (typeinstance?)
14:37:02 <merijn> romesrf: What is a type instance?
14:37:08 <romesrf> type instance F a = Int
14:37:16 <merijn> Ah, that's a type family
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14:37:26 <romesrf> :-)
14:37:26 <merijn> And you just import F
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14:37:42 <romesrf> How would I import just the instance? hahahaha
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14:38:05 <geekosaur> is the instance even meaningful without the family?
14:38:16 <merijn> I'm not sure what you mean by "just the instance". F is a type family instance is just the implementation
14:38:22 <romesrf> say, I have module A that declares type family, module B that declares an instance and then Monoid (F Somthng), and then module C which wants to know that F Somthn instances monoid
14:38:28 <merijn> 'F' is the only relevant part you can import
14:38:38 <romesrf> I see I see
14:39:31 <lechner> Hi, is anyone aware of a Perl module to parse Cabal files?
14:39:37 <romesrf> ty :)
14:39:37 <merijn> romesrf: If you have 'F' imported from A that is all you need to do "Monoid (F Something) =>" afaik
14:40:05 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/type_families.html#import-and-export
14:40:06 <romesrf> merijn: Indeed, I was trying to avoid the many of constraints
14:40:50 <romesrf> thank you geekosaur
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14:45:14 <geekosaur> lechner, afaik the only reliable way to parse a cabal file is via the cabal library
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14:45:49 <geekosaur> a perl module trying to parse a cabal file would be … scary
14:46:17 <geekosaur> (not that parsing in perl 5 isn't scary to start with… I like raku more for that)
14:47:00 <lechner> it would be okay to use an intermediary Haskell executable. Is there such a Swiss army knife?
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14:49:13 <geekosaur> doesn't seem to be
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14:49:22 <geekosaur> looks like hvr started to write one but abandoned it
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14:51:21 <lechner> okay, thanks!
14:52:12 <merijn> There's a work-in-progress parser for cabal
14:52:21 <lechner> Hi, what was the default value for 'cabal-version' when the field was not required, please?
14:53:25 <merijn> It was always required I'm pretty sure
14:53:42 <merijn> Or if it wasn't, then that was only in the way earliest days
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14:54:15 <merijn> (as in, more than 15-20 years ago)
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15:11:49 <lechner> merijn: thanks!
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15:13:21 <merijn> The only change I can think of you might be referring to is that change that drops the faux-range notation and requires it as first field in the file
15:13:27 <merijn> Which is fairly recent
15:13:51 <lechner> merijn: "now required" https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#pkg-field-cabal-version
15:14:13 <merijn> By which I mean "from around Cabal-2.0" which was released around 5 years ago
15:15:12 <merijn> lechner: Note that it says that it changed significantly in Cabal 1.2, which was released in 2007 :)
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15:15:40 <lechner> in debian i regularly encounter code written in 1998
15:16:25 <merijn> lechner: Note that a bit below it links to the github issue that has the whole discussion/rationale for changing things
15:17:18 <merijn> lechner: To clarify: the cabal-version field is intended to describe the syntax *of the cabal file* and does not relate to the cabal-install (i.e. cabal executable) used besides indirectly
15:18:00 <sclv> the approach you should take really depends on what info you want out of cabal files
15:18:22 <merijn> lechner: cabal-install is backwards compatible with all previous versions of the file-format. So this section only applies to writing/modifying cabal files and shouldn't affect anyone merely *using* cabal files
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15:20:35 <lechner> merijn: i thought i needed it for the default build type https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#pkg-field-build-type
15:20:49 <merijn> lechner: So cabal files wishing to use features of newer cabal specifications must declare an appropriate cabal-version for those features (which, from 2.0 on MUST be using the new format with the version on the first line and no faux-range syntax)
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15:22:03 <merijn> lechner: Well, that depends on why you want to change the default build type for a package?
15:22:20 <lechner> it's only when there is none
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15:22:57 <sclv> there's a lot of tools for translating between cabal files and specifications for various package managers, idk what shape they're in or their approach but eg https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-debian and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal2spec and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal2ebuild
15:22:57 <merijn> and?
15:23:11 <merijn> lechner: What are you trying to do?
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15:25:41 <lechner> the debian build system provides an appropriate Setup.hs file when none is present
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15:28:54 <merijn> and?
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15:29:37 <merijn> Why would that require modifying the package?
15:30:41 <lechner> it requires determining the build type, which depends in part on the cabal-version https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#pkg-field-build-type
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15:31:10 <merijn> It doesn't really, tbh
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15:31:28 <merijn> Because the only time it can be missing is when it's Simple/Configure/Make
15:31:47 <merijn> Because Custom requires a Setup.hs exist, else the package is broken to begin with
15:32:13 <merijn> So you can just always assume that missing setup type + missing Setup.hs == Simple
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15:36:20 <lechner> we catch that condition, but i still have to infer the custom build type first
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15:38:03 <merijn> You can just grep the cabal file for setup type. If grep finds nothing, check for Setup.hs existing and if not infer Simple. Else infer Custom?
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15:43:55 <lechner> merijn: here is what we do presently https://salsa.debian.org/lechner/haskell-devscripts/-/blob/perl-recipes/lib/Debian/Debhelper/Buildsystem/Haskell/Recipes.pm#L901-920
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15:46:29 <merijn> I mean, that's basically roughly what I described, no?
15:46:40 <merijn> (as far as I can guess Perl code anyway)
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15:53:13 <lechner> thanks for confirming! that's what i was aiming for.
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16:24:21 <Inst> do you know if there's any newer versions of HLS / GHCup / Cabal?
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16:29:34 <merijn> newer than what?
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16:41:17 <geekosaur> ghcup can update itself
16:41:53 <liz> if there's a new not-bleeding-edge update then it'll be available either through ghcup itself or your package manager
16:41:56 <geekosaur> Cabal lib 3.6.3.0 was released this morning I believe, but cabal-install is still 3.6.2.0
16:42:11 <geekosaur> hls hasn't updated yet
16:42:42 <liz> is ghcup updated manually bt a team when new things like this come out?
16:42:47 <liz> by*
16:42:52 <merijn> "team"
16:42:53 <merijn> lol
16:43:01 <liz> or like, one dude
16:43:07 <merijn> Pretty much :)
16:43:17 <liz> hehe, is it manual then?
16:43:36 <merijn> Almost certainly
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16:43:59 <geekosaur> ghcup itslef is updated periodically. when you run it it downloads a metadata file with current releases of everything available
16:43:59 <liz> i can't imagine it'll take too long from now if it's not available yet
16:44:12 <geekosaur> ghc 9.2.2 is already up, I'm seeing
16:44:15 <liz> gonna check my ghcup now actually
16:45:34 <liz> oh yep, ghc 9.2.2 and base 4.16.1.0 are up now
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16:46:24 <liz> and yeah, seems that cabal 3.6.3.0 isn't on ghcup 0.1.17.5
16:46:35 <liz> i'm sure it'll go up at some point today
16:46:58 <geekosaur> it'sonly a library update, won't show in ghcup
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16:47:09 <geekosaur> the command line tool is still 3.6.2.0
16:47:50 <geekosaur> (the namingf is admittedly confusing but Cabal the library and cabal(-install) the tool are distinct things)
16:47:52 <liz> silly question, can cabal 3.6.2.0 use cabal-lib 3.6.3.0?
16:47:59 <geekosaur> sure
16:48:19 <liz> okay yeah, i think i was conflating the two
16:48:26 <geekosaur> they'd have updated cabal-install if it had been needed
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16:50:55 <geekosaur> while the two are closely related, the APIs change rarely enough that cabal-install can work with a wide range of Cabal libraries
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16:51:17 <geekosaur> and has to because the Cabal library is how you interact with packages and package databases
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16:51:47 <geekosaur> which also means it's how cabal--install interacts with ghc, so you'd otherwise have to match cabal-install version with ghc version for things to work
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18:24:41 <Franciman> why, in your opinion, haskell is much more successful than standard ml?
18:24:51 <Franciman> with a lot more private investments and corporate usage?
18:25:02 <Franciman> with a bigger community and lots of libraries
18:26:45 [exa] bisects the features
18:26:50 <[exa]> ah yes, laziness
18:27:19 <Franciman> in my view laziness is a non feature
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18:27:33 <Franciman> it makes everything harder
18:27:36 <[exa]> otoh I wouldn't say it's strictly more successful, esp. compared to other (imo bigger) ML versions
18:27:50 <Franciman> mlton is able to perform more aggressive optimisations
18:27:53 <[exa]> it's just kinda more modern, cooler, etc
18:28:27 <Franciman> like unboxing in all the cases
18:28:36 <Franciman> thanks to the fact that sml is strict
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18:29:02 <anon04088520> how would I write a status like gameStatus :: [theStatus] -> String and thisPlace is mapped to Yes?
18:29:05 <Franciman> i would be surprised that it's the determining feature of haskell's success
18:29:28 <[exa]> anyway laziness really really helps with making all these cool monadic tricks work without much magic, and allows you to just implement complicated stuff without going into details...it's just very practically convenient
18:29:28 <Franciman> [exa]: ocaml has way fewer libraries than haskell
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18:29:49 <Franciman> i would say that haskell has a bigger community
18:29:54 <Franciman> most likely
18:30:03 <[exa]> depends on how you measure it
18:30:14 <[exa]> measuring sizes of library repos is probably biased :D
18:30:21 <[exa]> (towards npm :D )
18:30:25 <Franciman> ahah
18:30:38 <Franciman> i thought it would be a good measure of how much community effort is put in the project
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18:31:03 <Franciman> but yes, if you write a library for doing the sum of two numbers
18:31:07 <Franciman> it's unfair
18:31:11 <[exa]> also, people generally prefer being practical and "on the safe side" to ricing the features
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18:31:43 <aeson_q> hello
18:31:52 <anon04088520> hi all, does anyone know how would to write a status like gameStatus :: [theStatus] -> String and thisPlace is mapped to Yes?
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18:32:09 <[exa]> anon04088520: not sure if we can understand the question, can you provide a bit more context?
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18:32:12 <Franciman> hi anon04088520 sorry but i don't understand :(
18:32:34 <Franciman> [exa]: oh do you have any name i can lookup about «cool monadic tricks» laziness allows
18:32:36 <Franciman> ?
18:32:43 <geekosaur> ^ I don't for example see where/how `thisPlace` fits into it
18:32:55 <anon04088520> for example, gameStatus thisPlace = Yes
18:33:26 <anon04088520> sorry
18:33:27 <aeson_q> I want to programatically create an Aeson.Type.Array. I cannot use Array $ fromList [ ...... ] because its value are mixed values. f.e. [1, "foo", false, ["bar", "baz"]]. How can I do that?
18:33:27 <anon04088520> wait
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18:34:01 <Franciman> aeson_q: ah this one is simpler than you think
18:34:03 <Franciman> one sec
18:34:08 <aeson_q> thanks
18:34:22 <[exa]> aeson_q: you need to convert the things into the common wrapper, I guess Franciman is coming with an example
18:34:24 <Franciman> :t Data.Aeson.Array
18:34:25 <lambdabot> error:
18:34:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Data.Aeson.Array’
18:34:25 <lambdabot> No module named ‘Data.Aeson’ is imported.
18:34:29 <Franciman> ouch
18:34:32 <Franciman> yes
18:34:34 <Franciman> what [exa] says
18:34:35 <anon04088520> gameStatus [thisPlace, None, Else] = "Yes - yes"
18:34:36 <Franciman> :)
18:34:47 <geekosaur> % :t Data.Aeson.Array -- hailmary
18:34:48 <yahb> geekosaur: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; Not in scope: data constructor `Data.Aeson.Array'; No module named `Data.Aeson' is imported.
18:35:05 <aeson_q> try :t Data.Aeson.Value
18:35:09 <geekosaur> % import Data.Aeson
18:35:09 <yahb> geekosaur: ; <no location info>: error:; Could not find module `Data.Aeson'; Perhaps you meant Data.Version (from base-4.15.0.0)
18:35:17 <anon04088520> does that sort of make sense
18:35:19 <anon04088520> ?
18:35:21 <geekosaur> I don';t think either bot has aeson available
18:35:25 <Franciman> anon04088520: what is your task?
18:35:58 <Franciman> anon04088520: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.0.3.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#t:Array as you can see
18:36:04 <Franciman> it requires a list of values
18:36:06 <anon04088520> If I get given a [theStatus] I was the map each element to a specific character
18:36:11 <aeson_q> you need to convert the things into the common wrapper, sorry I can't follow
18:36:32 <Franciman> aeson_q: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.0.3.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#t:Value <- this
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18:36:58 <Franciman> you have to define a list of Values, like this: [Number 13, Bool "True", String "Hello"]
18:37:40 <[exa]> aeson_q: actually the "inner" problem is that you can't (easily) create a polymorphic list so stuff like `fmap toJson` can't save you
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18:38:41 <[exa]> anon04088520: kinda starting to make sense. So you have a functino that converts your type that contains None and Else to strings, and you just want all of them concatenated?
18:38:52 <anon04088520> Yes
18:39:32 <aeson_q> exa, Franciman, ok I get a step closer...
18:39:35 <aeson_q> let me try
18:39:43 <[exa]> anon04088520: so that's literally the function of concatMap
18:40:00 <energizer> what is the relationship between Foldable and Monoid?
18:40:32 <[exa]> anon04088520: I kinda expect that `concatMap gameStatus` could work
18:40:48 <anon04088520> [exa]: like https://paste.tomsmeding.com/oire7Vgn
18:40:53 <[exa]> if not, please make a pastebin with a minimal mess... ah there
18:41:35 <[exa]> anon04088520: maybe if you want the spaces in between, try `intercalate " " . map gameStatus`
18:41:35 <anon04088520> does that sort of explain it better?
18:41:38 <[exa]> yes
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18:42:02 <[exa]> try the stuff from above, if not please supply at least a minimal definition of the gameStatus function so that we can see how it behaves
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18:42:32 <anon04088520> this is meant to be a basic function for a wordle clone project
18:42:58 <anon04088520> hope that provides some more context
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18:45:26 <energizer> is Foldable for if you have a monoid but either it's not declared as a Monoid or it is a Monoid and you want to use a function other than its mappend?
18:45:48 <liz> you can define a Foldable instance in terms of foldMap
18:45:50 <liz> :t foldMap
18:45:51 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
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18:47:30 <energizer> yeah but if that's what it was /for/, `fold` could just be on Monoid itself
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18:48:11 <[exa]> energizer: Foldable things can be interpreted as monoids, but don't need to satisfy monoid laws
18:48:42 <[exa]> s/as/using/
18:48:56 <energizer> [exa]: is there a useful case of Foldable that doesn't satisfy monoid laws?
18:49:47 <aeson_q> ok, I ran into another problem with this...
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18:50:40 <liz> energizer: if you want a small example, i recently used a Foldable to construct a tree from a file, directly from the IO; since reading from the file was non-associative i was folding over a non-monoid, but the fold was a succinct way of constructing the tree
18:51:34 <[exa]> energizer: I might have mixed up the generalization directions there (*returns to the books*)
18:51:49 <aeson_q> i have a date (instance of EpochTime) that I need to encode inside: Aeson.Types.Number $ date, seems like I need to convert EpochTime -> Data.Scientific.Scientific, any suggestions?
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18:52:18 <liz> if the thing you're folding over is a Monoid, then foldl and foldr will be "the same" by the fact that monoids are associative necessarily
18:52:26 <monochrom> Foldable is for what most people consider "container data structures" and when you want to perform monoid operations (what most people call "aggregate operations") on elements.
18:53:11 <monochrom> A little bit more precisely, container data structures that feel like sequences.
18:53:40 <monochrom> or can be downgraded to sequences.
18:53:51 <[exa]> could you make up a "default" mappend for each Foldable?
18:55:21 <monochrom> No, Foldable methods aren't enough to produce Foldable instances. Only enough for consuming elements.
18:55:40 <monochrom> Well, unless you just want to produce a list.
18:57:26 <anon04088520> so I am writing a function that takes a list of words and concatenates them and returns a string
18:58:25 <geekosaur> aeson_q, EpochTime is a wrapper for Int64, you can use fromEnum to extract the Int64 and encode it
18:58:27 <anon04088520> but each item in the list needs to be mapped to a specific work
18:58:51 <[exa]> anon04088520: did you try the above code I sent?
18:59:19 <anon04088520> I haven't heard of concatMap
18:59:29 <[exa]> monochrom: you meant "to produce Monoid instances" ?
18:59:32 <anon04088520> I couldn't get it to work
18:59:41 <monochrom> No. No typo there.
18:59:53 <[exa]> monochrom: oh so okay :D
19:00:07 <anon04088520> is there a simpler way to do it?
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19:00:18 <[exa]> anon04088520: you can do it with "concat" and "map" separately
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19:00:57 <monochrom> concat, map, and concatMap are all very simple.
19:01:01 <anon04088520> could you show me an example?
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19:02:50 <[exa]> anon04088520: see above. Ideally we'd need a type of your `gameStatus` function
19:04:13 <anon04088520> it's a list for example [Here] maps to "Yes"
19:04:34 <anon04088520> [Here, Nowhere] maps to " Yes -"
19:05:07 <anon04088520> gameStatus [Here, Nowhere] should evaluate to "Yes -"
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19:06:20 <[exa]> anon04088520: what's the name of the function that translates the things to strings? e.g. maps a single Here to "Yes" ?
19:06:24 <monochrom> Do you know how to use "map" to go from [Here, Nowhere] to ["Yes", "-"]?
19:06:51 <anon04088520> gameStatus
19:06:54 <monochrom> After that, Data.List's intercalate can help you merge the words and insert spaces.
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19:07:23 <anon04088520> monochrom: it should return a "Yes -" not ["Yes", "-"]
19:07:35 <monochrom> Sure, see my second sentence.
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19:08:03 <geekosaur> or unwords?
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19:08:17 <monochrom> Oh, haha, I forgot unwords.
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19:09:23 <anon04088520> It it possible to that without importing Data.List?
19:09:33 <geekosaur> unwords is in the Prelude
19:09:45 <geekosaur> > unwords ["Yes","-"]
19:09:47 <lambdabot> "Yes -"
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19:11:54 <anon04088520> but if I wanted to make the function myself
19:11:59 <anon04088520> and not use unwords
19:12:19 <monochrom> Then it is a bit of an annoying recursion you have to write.
19:12:20 <anon04088520> e.g. gameStatus should map [Here] to "Yes"
19:12:33 <monochrom> unwords does that already.
19:12:50 <monochrom> Err, unwords does ["Yes"] to "Yes" already.
19:12:57 <monochrom> I no longer understand your question.
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19:13:40 <anon04088520> How would I write it using recursion?
19:13:49 <monochrom> You demand both "simple" and "write everything from scratch" as far as I can tell. Can't be done.
19:13:53 <anon04088520> Can I find the source for unwords?
19:14:00 <anon04088520> im sorry
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19:15:05 <geekosaur> @src unwords
19:15:05 <lambdabot> unwords [] = ""
19:15:05 <lambdabot> unwords ws = foldr1 (\w s -> w ++ ' ':s) ws
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19:15:41 <monochrom> Heh that just goes down the rabbit hole of foldr1...
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19:16:00 <geekosaur> it could go downb the rabbit hole of intercalate instead…
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19:17:15 <monochrom> In elementary terms, the recursion of unwords requires two base cases, not just one. This is because ["yes"] -> "yes" does not fit the general case of ["yes", "no", "maybe"] -> "yes no maybe". I.e., the # of spaces is off by 1.
19:17:27 <geekosaur> anon04088520, the usual ways to do this is two functions, one to do the mapping and one to do the combining. although in most cases I'd just use unwords or intercalate for the latter rather than writing it
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19:18:00 <monochrom> But if you are aware of that, it's a garden-variety recursion apart from that.
19:18:22 <anon04088520> I wasn't aware of it
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19:23:43 <anon04088520> geekosaur: how would I do the mapping?
19:24:22 <geekosaur> % data Loc = Here | There | Somewhere
19:24:22 <yahb> geekosaur:
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19:24:54 <geekosaur> % loc Here = "Yes"; loc There = "No"; loc Somewhere = "-"
19:24:54 <yahb> geekosaur:
19:25:23 <geekosaur> % unwords (map loc [Here, Somewhere, No]
19:25:23 <yahb> geekosaur: ; <interactive>:19:39: error: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
19:25:28 <geekosaur> % unwords (map loc [Here, Somewhere, No])
19:25:28 <yahb> geekosaur: ; <interactive>:20:36: error:; * Data constructor not in scope: No :: Loc; * Perhaps you meant variable `to' (imported from Control.Lens)
19:25:34 <geekosaur> % unwords (map loc [Here, Somewhere, There])
19:25:34 <yahb> geekosaur: "Yes - No"
19:25:39 <geekosaur> sorry about that last
19:25:48 <geekosaur> slightly distracted here
19:27:11 <anon04088520> sorry this is going sound silly, is loc a keyword or just made up?
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19:27:21 <geekosaur> I defined a function with three cases
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19:28:22 <geekosaur> it's the same as saying: loc place = case place of { Here -> "Yes"; There -> "no"; Somewhere -> "-" }
19:28:40 <anon04088520> ahhh ok I see
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19:40:06 <anon04088520> geekosaur: is this right? https://replit.com/join/idzzjvapir-sr53
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20:37:50 <remexre> if I'm getting a segfault in FFI code in a largish haskell program, is there a good way to get a haskell stack trace from it?
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20:57:49 <geekosaur> not really
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21:49:13 <int-e> maerwald[m]: Hmm Endo and "wasted intellectual energy" -- how else do you get foldr from fold (or foldMap)? You /need/ an auxiliary monoid, and that monoid happens to be function composition, which is Endo. Unless your plan is to get rid of the Foldable abstraction and go back to lists? I could get behind that... especially for teaching.
21:50:46 <maerwald> I didn't argue against Endo as an implementation detail
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21:51:04 <maerwald> just that using it in your own code can look confusing, depending on how you use it
21:51:23 <int-e> maerwald[m]: Or maybe you want a DList based toList / foldr on list, hmm. But on the library level you'll end up implementing a `build` variant of `toList`, and why not inline that, and after a few steps you'll end up with what's there.
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21:51:46 <maerwald> I mean, it's really not that complicated
21:51:52 <maerwald> just allows some funny obfuscation
21:52:34 <int-e> It's definitely not something I understood at a glance the first time I saw it, so yes, it costs intellectual energy. I'm just not convinced it's wasted :)
21:52:40 <maerwald> and the docs could give a more interesting example
21:53:16 <int-e> (I already knew about Endo and foldMap, so the #. caused me far more trouble.)
21:53:52 <int-e> @src foldr
21:53:52 <lambdabot> foldr f z [] = z
21:53:52 <lambdabot> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
21:54:19 <int-e> And I knew that it was supposed to do this on lists...
21:54:47 <int-e> But I definitely treat it as an implementation detail.
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22:00:38 <int-e> I guess I'd only call it obfuscation if it wasn't dictated by necessity (need a monoid (hence the use of Endo), and it's performance critical (justifying the use of #.))
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22:18:11 <dsamperi> Plutus Playground was not available recently (bad certificate) and now it is up, but the Hello World example leads to "Validation failed." Most of the tutorial videos are months or years old,yet Playground was introduced in January 2022 I think. Current Status?
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22:21:50 <dsamperi> My bad, I was not logged in. The Plutus Playground Hello World example seems to work.
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22:48:56 <anon04088520> any idea how to make it print on a new line? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/gGqLXof2 and also how I can add spaces between the characters during input
22:49:52 <romesrf> anon04088520: we were talking b4, you should check again how it was said in class to do the getGuess n attempts
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22:55:09 <geekosaur> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0dbUOwGG is a way to do it but possibly not what you should be using
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22:56:12 <anon04088520> I'm reviewing a lecture on it
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22:58:41 <geekosaur> oh, I forgot to change getChar back to getChar'
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23:03:35 <anon04088520> ok
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23:10:14 <mreh_> What is there difference between the types in this error message?
23:10:15 <mreh_> Couldn't match type ‘[S.PhotoT (QExpr Postgres s0)]’
23:10:15 <mreh_>                      with ‘forall s'. [S.PhotoT (QExpr Postgres s')]’
23:10:57 <hpc> rank
23:10:59 <mreh_> Is the s not the same in all the elements in the list?
23:11:44 <hpc> s0 is part of a larger scope than s'
23:12:10 <hpc> s' is introduced right at the list, and s0 is introduced somewhere further out that's not communicated in that error
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23:15:59 <mreh_> I can't work out where s' is introduced, all the functions I'm using to construct values of S.PhotoT... all have forall s. in their type.
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23:18:20 <hpc> s' is introduced by that forall right there in the error
23:18:30 <hpc> :P
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23:53:47 <worldhelloworld> Really struggling to conceptualize folds when traversing a list - could barely define a takeWhile in terms of foldr, but can't for the life of me, conceptualize a dropWhile in terms of fold :(
23:55:25 <dminuoso> Can you share your version of takeWhile perhaps?
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23:55:32 <worldhelloworld> Sure
23:55:50 <worldhelloworld> `takeWhile'' f = foldr (\x acc -> if f x then x:acc else []) []`
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All times are in UTC on 2022-03-07.