Logs on 2022-03-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:02:49 | <hololeap> | atomically =<< getCompose (Compose foo *> Compose bar) |
| 00:02:56 | <hololeap> | but now we're just getting silly |
| 00:05:31 | <steven1> | but it seems like I can't use the output of foo in bar. I think that makes sense since foo could run IO and you shouldn't run IO in STM. But now I'm trying to find an escape hatch |
| 00:05:53 | <steven1> | like maybe something like withRunInIO exception it's withRunInSTM (doesn't exist) |
| 00:05:58 | <steven1> | except* |
| 00:06:29 | <hololeap> | you said that foo was AppM (STM ()) |
| 00:06:36 | <steven1> | yep |
| 00:06:44 | <hololeap> | so what output are you talking about? |
| 00:06:47 | <steven1> | I can also write AppM a -> a no problem |
| 00:06:56 | <steven1> | albeit not safe in general, but safe in this case at least |
| 00:07:34 | <hololeap> | I really don't think you want to be breaking the semantics of the STM monad here. it sounds like you just need to do a little bit of tetris |
| 00:08:22 | <steven1> | well I think it's safe because the only AppM logic I'm using here is reader |
| 00:08:35 | <steven1> | you can pretend AppM is Reader TChan |
| 00:08:59 | <steven1> | I just read the tchan then do some STM stuff with it |
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| 00:10:03 | <hololeap> | ok... but why do you need some escape hatch for that? |
| 00:11:37 | <steven1> | I don't strictly need it, just want to see if I can compose AppM (STM ()) without extracting the STMs beforehand like we said |
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| 00:14:33 | <hololeap> | you can use Compose on `AppM (STM ())`, which will give you `Compose AppM STM ()`. this is an Applicative and you can treat it as such |
| 00:14:46 | <hololeap> | it also sounds like AppM could be written as a monad transformer |
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| 00:14:57 | <steven1> | AppM is a transformer in practice |
| 00:15:01 | <steven1> | it's a yesod stack |
| 00:15:12 | <hololeap> | oh, so it needs to have IO at the bottom |
| 00:15:15 | <steven1> | I need monad in this case |
| 00:15:16 | <steven1> | yep |
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| 00:18:18 | <hololeap> | it sounds like you can just STM as it's intended to be used. if it ends up being a little "verbose", oh well. at least it will be readable |
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| 00:43:42 | <steven1> | hololeap: yeah, I think you're right. even if I find a way it looks like it will be complicated |
| 00:43:45 | <steven1> | thanks for looking |
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| 01:34:02 | <nomagno> | Hey! I'm not sure if this is on-topic enough, but any idea how I'm supposed to represent the S combinator in an SKI combinator calculus binary tree? Is 'Sxyz' usually represented (S(x)(y(z))) or (S(x(y))(z))? |
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| 09:43:02 | <ski> | nomagno : neither. `S x y z' should be parsed as `((S x) y) z' |
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| 09:44:08 | <ski> | (or `S(x)(y)(z)' or `((S(x))(y))(z)', if you insist with that style of bracketting) |
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| 11:05:26 | <nomagno> | ski: How would that look like in a binary tree though? |
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| 11:07:29 | <nomagno> | https://termbin.com/kaff |
| 11:07:35 | <nomagno> | Top, middle, or bottom? |
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| 11:10:53 | <nomagno> | https://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~odonnell/Teacher/Lectures/Formal_Organization_of_Knowledge/Examples/combinator_calculus/img20.gif |
| 11:11:18 | <nomagno> | Thank you, Chicago University Computer Science Campus Official Website! |
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| 11:18:21 | <ski> | nomagno : neither |
| 11:20:11 | <ski> | @ -+- @ -+- @ -+- S |
| 11:20:14 | <ski> | \- x |
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| 11:20:20 | <ski> | \- y |
| 11:20:23 | <ski> | \- z |
| 11:20:35 | <ski> | where `@' refers to application |
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| 11:36:00 | polyphem | is now known as p0lyph3m |
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| 18:28:22 | <hololeap> | from the perspective of haskell coders, is lisp worth learning? |
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| 18:30:09 | <ski> | learning about the macro system (and staged programming) is useful (e.g. to compare with TH) |
| 18:30:42 | <ski> | hygienic macros and continuations in Scheme are also worth learning about |
| 18:32:25 | <ski> | (perhaps learning about the multi-method approach to OO, in CLOS, could also be interesting) |
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| 18:37:06 | <[exa]> | +1 for learning it, I'd say it's one of the "base languages" that are more or less present in everything |
| 18:38:06 | <[exa]> | also, learning call/cc in lisps is just incomparably easier than in haskell :] |
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| 18:38:28 | <monochrom> | Scheme is better than Lisp for the purpose of base language, simply because Scheme has hindsight. |
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| 18:38:50 | <monochrom> | The only downside is that CLOS does not have a Scheme equivalent. |
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| 18:39:18 | <dolio> | Probably best to learn Racket or something. |
| 18:39:24 | <monochrom> | But macros, continuations, lambdas... Scheme cleans up Lisp's mess. |
| 18:40:25 | <hpc> | learning lisp is a lot like learning assembly, in some ways |
| 18:40:40 | <hpc> | "the language gives me nothing, now how do i do anything?" |
| 18:40:59 | <monochrom> | Unless you are interested in the niche of "a name has multiple bindings" which helps understand what Guy Steele was thinking when he wrote the semantics of EMCAScript. |
| 18:41:08 | <ski> | Racket is a Scheme is a Lisp :) |
| 18:41:26 | <dolio> | Yeah, but the details matter. |
| 18:41:34 | <[exa]> | there's the "teach yourself scheme in fixnum days" which is pretty cool and dives just about right in each interesting direction I'd say |
| 18:41:43 | <[exa]> | ^ happy to hear opinions on that btw |
| 18:41:48 | <dolio> | Racket actually has delimited continuations for you to use, instead of learning the antiquated call/cc. |
| 18:41:53 | <ski> | hm, i thought i'd seen some kind of CLOS system for a Scheme |
| 18:42:08 | <monochrom> | Yeah shift/reset is better. |
| 18:42:37 | <dolio> | Some other schemes do, too, but many don't, because it's not in the standard. |
| 18:43:45 | <[exa]> | ski: I always thought you can just macro it in (sacrificing some speed) |
| 18:44:03 | <monochrom> | Yeah go for Racket, it's a very much improved Scheme. |
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| 18:46:27 | ski | . o O ( <https://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/> ; <https://okmij.org/ftp/kakuritu/Hansei.html> ; <https://okmij.org/ftp/meta-programming/> ; <https://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html> ) |
| 18:46:51 | <ski> | [exa] : sorry, macro what in ? |
| 18:47:12 | <monochrom> | Also Racket has pattern matching. |
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| 18:47:51 | <[exa]> | ski: make sufficient macros to simulate CLOS atop R5RS |
| 18:48:21 | <ski> | ah, might well be quite possible |
| 18:48:30 | ski | hasn't really looked too much into CLOS |
| 18:48:58 | <[exa]> | me neither but I've seen quite a few (make-instance) and (defclass) in tutorials so I assumed. :D |
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| 18:56:11 | ski | . o O ( "Pattern Matching" (SRFI 200) by Panicz Maciej Godek in 2020-(06-19 - 08-24) at <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-200/srfi-200.html> ; "portable hygienic pattern matcher" (defined using `syntax-rules') by foof (aka Alex Shinn) at <http://synthcode.com/scheme/match.scm> ) |
| 18:56:17 | ski | . o O ( "A Practical Soft Type System for Scheme" by Andrew K. Wright,Robert Cartwright in 1997-01 at <https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/cours/ift6232/doc/pres2/practical-soft-type-system-for-scheme.pdf> ; "Wright-Cartwright-Shinn Pattern Matcher" (SRFI 204, withdrawn) by Felix Thibault in 2020-07-15 - 2022-02-02 at <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-204/srfi-204.html> ) |
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| 21:34:16 | <mreh> | Messing around with this oldish blog post https://www.parsonsmatt.org/2017/04/26/basic_type_level_programming_in_haskell.html |
| 21:35:08 | <mreh> | I can't get the type application of the `Symbol`s e.g @"foo" to parse. |
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| 21:35:49 | <mreh> | "Expected a type, but ‘"foo"’ has kind ‘GHC.Types.Symbol’" |
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| 21:42:52 | <geekosaur> | did you enable PolyKinds? |
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| 21:45:17 | <ski> | argh, the `Show' instance doesn't properly bracket .. :( |
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| 22:10:42 | <mreh> | geekosaur: I thought so |
| 22:11:18 | <mreh> | Yeah :set -XPolyKinds |
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| 22:14:29 | <geekosaur> | I need DataKinds as well locally, it seems |
| 22:14:47 | <geekosaur> | %% :set |
| 22:14:48 | <yahb> | geekosaur: http://qp.mniip.com/y/48 |
| 22:15:58 | <geekosaur> | % :set -XDataKinds -XTypeApplications -XPolyKinds |
| 22:15:58 | <yahb> | geekosaur: |
| 22:16:08 | <geekosaur> | % :t Proxy @"foo" |
| 22:16:08 | <yahb> | geekosaur: Proxy "foo" |
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| 22:27:37 | <mreh> | geekosaur: hmm, I have all those |
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| 22:28:48 | <mreh> | > :t Proxy @"foo" |
| 22:28:49 | <mreh> | Proxy @"foo" :: Proxy "foo" |
| 22:28:50 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 22:28:54 | <mreh> | That works for me |
| 22:29:03 | <romesrf> | hi |
| 22:29:11 | <romesrf> | in cabal, what's the difference between >= and ^>= |
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| 22:34:17 | <jackdk> | romesrf: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-package.html#build-information |
| 22:37:38 | <romesrf> | jackdk: thank you, perhaps there could be a pointer to that link here: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/developing-packages.html#modules-imported-from-other-packages |
| 22:37:46 | <romesrf> | where the >= ^>= are enumed |
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| 22:44:39 | <mreh> | ah, I had `data s >> a = Named a`, instead of `newtype s >> a = Named a`. Why would that affect the type application? |
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