Logs on 2022-03-31 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:49 | <geekosaur> | have to admit I was also wondering if they'd made any calls that perhaps had prevented the compiler from solving the Integral dictionary at compile time, but now we're into inspecting Core |
| 00:00:55 | <geekosaur> | speaking of scaring newcomers off |
| 00:01:22 | <geekosaur> | then again if you're golfing, it's nearly a requirement anyway |
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| 00:02:23 | <monochrom> | But the factors I listed were already optimistic in that. |
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| 00:04:09 | <abastro[m]> | Golfing? |
| 00:04:21 | <geekosaur> | [30 23:43:44] <Guest27> monochrom On the one hand safety is important. On the other hand I'm playing code golf with friends and need to **win** |
| 00:04:27 | <Axman6> | using a few ~hits~ characters as possible |
| 00:04:36 | <geekosaur> | or least time, etc. |
| 00:04:52 | <geekosaur> | point being it is, like golf, about getting the lowest score |
| 00:04:56 | <geekosaur> | by whatever metric |
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| 00:06:07 | <monochrom> | Remember that childish children competed in length? They all wanted to boast that they had the longest whatever? |
| 00:06:29 | <monochrom> | Well adults do the reciprocal. |
| 00:07:25 | <Axman6> | it's an important thing though, it relates to information theory and compression |
| 00:07:37 | <geekosaur> | reminded of the old joke about cellphones, before smartphones came out and they rebounded |
| 00:07:55 | <monochrom> | hehe |
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| 00:11:39 | <monochrom> | We said "water bottle phone" in Hong Kong. |
| 00:12:03 | <monochrom> | Naturally, toy makers henceforth made water bottles in the shape of those large cellphones. |
| 00:13:01 | <geekosaur> | come to think of it, I don't think I've yet seen a comic retrospective comparing the days when everyone wanted the smallest phone to now when everyone wants the largest smartphone |
| 00:13:14 | <abastro[m]> | Hahahaha |
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| 00:13:57 | <Axman6> | toy makers just need to pivot to making hip flasks instead |
| 00:14:54 | <hpc> | they should sell non-fungible fungus |
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| 01:18:25 | <dons> | morning all |
| 01:19:06 | <geekosaur> | o/ |
| 01:20:04 | <Guest|18> | y |
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| 01:28:18 | <abastro[m]> | Wait, morning? |
| 01:28:19 | <abastro[m]> | Where is it |
| 01:30:29 | <Guest|18> | type Maybe :: * -> * |
| 01:30:30 | <Guest|18> | data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a |
| 01:30:30 | <Guest|18> | -- Defined in ‘GHC.Maybe’ |
| 01:31:55 | <abastro[m]> | m |
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| 01:33:16 | <geekosaur> | australia, I believe |
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| 01:40:26 | <Guest|18> | i guest Arctic :-| |
| 01:43:38 | <hpc> | haha, technically true |
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| 01:50:27 | <abastro[m]> | Kek |
| 01:50:44 | <abastro[m]> | Btw it is morning here too |
| 01:51:41 | <geekosaur> | Guest|18, did you have a question related to that paste? |
| 01:55:00 | <abastro[m]> | I thought it was an answer to my "Where is it?" |
| 01:58:53 | <Guest|18> | abastro[m]: yes |
| 01:59:55 | <abastro[m]> | Ye |
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| 04:29:15 | <jle`> | why leak space |
| 04:29:17 | <jle`> | how find leak :( |
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| 04:47:03 | alMalsamo | is now known as littlebobeep |
| 04:47:56 | <abastro[m]> | Just as hard as memory leak |
| 04:50:24 | <Guest|18> | QAQ！ |
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| 04:53:06 | <Andrew> | Let's add malloc() to Haskell |
| 04:53:23 | <abastro[m]> | Great idea |
| 04:53:32 | <dolio> | GHC already has malloc. |
| 04:53:42 | <abastro[m]> | It's immutable so `free` should not exist |
| 04:54:05 | <abastro[m]> | `malloc :: Data a => a` |
| 04:54:25 | Andrew | doesn't *actually* see a use case except for irony |
| 04:55:14 | <abastro[m]> | Hm usecase for which? |
| 04:55:36 | <abastro[m]> | Ofc `malloc :: Data a => a` is a complete joke |
| 04:55:52 | <Andrew> | Data, lol |
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| 05:09:54 | <Axman6> | jle`: simple, delete code until leak goes away! |
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| 05:11:47 | <jle`> | eureka! |
| 05:12:08 | <Axman6> | if you get to main = pure (), you're all done |
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| 05:15:10 | <abastro> | Hahaha |
| 05:15:30 | <Axman6> | abastro: does your change of name mean you've got glirc working? |
| 05:15:41 | <abastro> | Yep, I am on glirc now |
| 05:15:47 | <Axman6> | congrats |
| 05:15:53 | <abastro> | Tho I am afraid I might be pinging smone named glirc |
| 05:16:35 | <abastro> | Xmonad with scratchpad made it quite easy to work with this app. |
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| 05:22:52 | <Axman6> | there's a default highlight for the word glirc in the config, which you can remove if you don't like getting notified every time another glirc user talks about how great glirc is |
| 05:25:05 | <jackdk> | Axman6: Back when I was young and wasn't good at things, I tried to "fix" a sample program that came with my Pascal compiler by deleting every line it complained about. By the end, I had a very small program. |
| 05:25:26 | <Axman6> | Thanos would be proud |
| 05:31:54 | <abastro[m]> | Oh, saying glirc just lets glirc ppl notified? |
| 05:31:59 | <abastro[m]> | I thought it was an actual user |
| 05:32:52 | <dons> | yow my .cabal file is nearly 2000 lines now |
| 05:33:03 | <dons> | hmm. i bet parsing that is a non-trivial part of the build time |
| 05:33:25 | <sclv> | waht |
| 05:33:38 | <sclv> | parsing cabal files should be really fast unless we screwed something up |
| 05:33:48 | <sclv> | (that's not what the waht is referring to tho) |
| 05:33:49 | <Axman6> | need more packages and meta-cabal files (pun intended) |
| 05:34:03 | <dons> | well, checking dependencies anyway |
| 05:34:19 | <sclv> | solving dependencies could well be, though we've worked on that |
| 05:34:35 | <sclv> | the parsing should be good tho, since its pretty frequent cabal has to parse a _ton_ of files |
| 05:35:02 | <sclv> | you can time a fresh "configure" to mod out the cabal figuring stuff out portion of a build time |
| 05:35:36 | <sclv> | i'm sort of astonished that a file could hit that large though. unless it has like a lot of distinct targets inside it |
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| 05:36:15 | <dons> | https://raw.githubusercontent.com/facebookincubator/Glean/main/glean.cabal |
| 05:37:09 | <sclv> | lmao wow really putting that sublibrary thing to work |
| 05:37:16 | <dons> | $ find . -type f -name '*.hs' -exec cat {} \; | wc -l |
| 05:37:20 | <dons> | 559,786 |
| 05:37:31 | <dons> | fair bit of generated stuff there |
| 05:38:10 | <sclv> | i wonder if you can use wildcards for like cxx-sources |
| 05:38:24 | <sclv> | probably doesn't work for that field, and possibly for good reason? |
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| 05:40:34 | <dons> | i'm doing this mad thing where i'm compiling rust, typescript, go, php, c++, javascript. its all running fine. today it falls over because theres a dependency on a specific 2018 version of bison at the bottom of the stack |
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| 05:40:59 | <dons> | [industry built on dude in montana maintaining a unix tool.gif] |
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| 05:41:32 | <Axman6> | Thanks Brian, the unix tool guy |
| 05:42:17 | <sclv> | but yeah i don't see how to factor that down much further. impressive! |
| 05:43:13 | <Axman6> | is that all hand written too? |
| 05:43:27 | <dons> | yeah |
| 05:43:36 | <sclv> | i learned btw that people now call the issue "the nebraska problem" since thats where the guy is in the original xkcd cartoon |
| 05:43:37 | <dons> | 4 years of piecewise development |
| 05:43:44 | <dons> | nebraska. right. |
| 05:43:46 | <Axman6> | dons: something about this and Australia's property market made me laugh: Glean.RTS.Foreign.Ownership |
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| 05:44:18 | <dons> | we have to track who 'owns' facts in the db, so that when we add new facts that invalidate the old ones, we can work out what else got invalidated. |
| 05:44:35 | <dons> | incremental recomputing of DAGs . anyway yeah ownership :} |
| 05:49:27 | <dons> | some of these generate schema files " 401% 13.9 1:05.16 ghc" |
| 05:49:28 | <dons> | ghc go brrr |
| 05:50:05 | <dons> | i've managed to squeeze out just on 600% cpu utilisation on a few of them. pretty cool seeing ghc go down the module graph |
| 05:50:23 | <dons> | i suspect generating a gazillion instances i'll never use but oh well |
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| 08:05:55 | <merijn> | sclv: Also, with v2 doesn't it just parse once and then only check hash and load the preparsed result if unchanged? |
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| 11:07:22 | <maerwald> | tomsmeding: https://www.npmjs.com/package/monaco-editor |
| 11:07:31 | <maerwald> | that's what the plutus playground editor uses as well |
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| 11:11:24 | <tomsmeding> | "Is the editor supported in mobile browsers or mobile web app frameworks?" -- "No." |
| 11:11:52 | <tomsmeding> | that would be a really powerful editor though |
| 11:12:33 | <maerwald> | well, you can detect viewport size and select editor based on that |
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| 11:16:10 | <tomsmeding> | true |
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| 11:59:01 | <abastro[m]> | Honestly I am concerned if haskell might fall as cardano dies |
| 11:59:55 | <merijn> | Why? |
| 12:00:27 | <merijn> | the vast majority of people involved in Haskell predate cardano and have nothing to do with cardano |
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| 12:03:34 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: rust didn't die after mozilla more or less abandoned it. Cardano is not even close to being that closely tied to the language or ecosystem as Mozilla was to rust. |
| 12:03:54 | <Hecate> | Rust didn't die because Amazon some big corporations gave jobs to the ex-Mozilla employees |
| 12:04:13 | <Hecate> | now the idea is: how many people would be jobless if IOG was to fall |
| 12:04:17 | <int-e> | . o O ( Cardawhat? (No, I've heard of it. It's just not relevant. ) |
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| 12:04:59 | <merijn> | I know like 1-2 people being payed by Cardano and I don't think they're particularly crucial roles in the community |
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| 12:05:06 | <maerwald> | merijn: duncan? |
| 12:05:21 | <merijn> | Duncan isn't at well-typed anymore? |
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| 12:05:31 | <maerwald> | sure and leading cardano projecs |
| 12:05:42 | <abastro[m]> | Oh I did not know that rust was abandoned by mozilla |
| 12:05:45 | <abastro[m]> | What happened? |
| 12:05:47 | <int-e> | Hecate: That one got me... what is IOG? |
| 12:05:47 | <merijn> | Sure, but well-typed existed way before cardano |
| 12:06:06 | <maerwald> | merijn: yes, it will cause some disruption |
| 12:06:34 | <merijn> | maerwald: Someone injecting big money in the ecosystem going away will cause some disruption sure |
| 12:06:35 | <maerwald> | GHC darwin M1 support was mostly paid for by IOHK afair |
| 12:06:46 | <merijn> | Not enough to create an existential risk for Haskell, though |
| 12:06:46 | <abastro[m]> | Is Mozilla back at using C++ again? |
| 12:06:52 | <maerwald> | merijn: I agree |
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| 12:07:19 | <abastro[m]> | I am afraid that haskell is being tied with blockchain |
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| 12:07:24 | <abastro[m]> | Especially Cardano |
| 12:07:37 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: it's not even the only blockchain written in Haskell ;) |
| 12:07:43 | <int-e> | abastro[m]: It's not. It may have found a use there but it is not the primary use of Haskell by any means. |
| 12:07:55 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/kadena-io/chainweb-node |
| 12:08:06 | <abastro[m]> | Like what is it really good at, tbh it is most likely that only Btc and Eth would serve well in the long run |
| 12:08:33 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: blockchain is mostly about marketing and hitting the right buttons at the right time |
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| 12:08:49 | <abastro[m]> | Maerwald, how do you know quite a lot in this area? |
| 12:08:50 | <maerwald> | but purely technical, cardano is way more interesting than etc (if you're into that sort of stuff) |
| 12:08:57 | <maerwald> | s/etc/eth |
| 12:09:13 | <maerwald> | I'm not interested in blockchain as a technology |
| 12:09:24 | <abastro[m]> | Yeah, but eth could indeed change its tech I think |
| 12:09:36 | <int-e> | it's a fascinating social phenomenon |
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| 12:10:07 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: I happen to work in that area (sadly, maybe) |
| 12:10:08 | <abastro[m]> | Guess many ppl hate govt intervention |
| 12:10:22 | <abastro[m]> | Which area? |
| 12:10:23 | <int-e> | Mostly for its frauds... https://nitter.allella.fr/Bitfinexed/status/1508618905065078785#m |
| 12:10:55 | <abastro[m]> | Do you work in cryptos? |
| 12:11:01 | <int-e> | (This is for permissionless blockchains... which /require/ a cryptocurrency to work.) |
| 12:11:19 | <merijn> | abastro[m]: It's more likely none of the blockchains will serve well in the future >.> |
| 12:11:24 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: fintech, which blockchain is a part of |
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| 12:11:29 | <int-e> | "crypto" means "cryptography" to me. Does that answer your question? |
| 12:11:30 | <int-e> | :P |
| 12:12:03 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: fintech has been interested in Haskell long before blockchain |
| 12:12:48 | <maerwald> | and I'd argue it may in fact be one of the primary drivers of industry adoption... but these days there are all sorts of other startups doing haskell |
| 12:12:54 | <maerwald> | from robotics to green tech and whatever |
| 12:13:03 | <abastro[m]> | Oh, fintech |
| 12:13:08 | <abastro[m]> | That is way better tbh |
| 12:13:42 | <abastro[m]> | While many fintech companies are indeed looking into some investment towards cryptocurrencies, I guess |
| 12:13:55 | <abastro[m]> | Green tech? |
| 12:14:01 | <int-e> | You just need to have one look at hackage's package index to realize that Haskell is a general purpose programming language. |
| 12:14:45 | <abastro[m]> | I mean I know it's GP, but even GP languages often have some areas it accels at. |
| 12:15:07 | <int-e> | . o O ( Yeah. Haskell excels at writing compilers. ) |
| 12:15:10 | <int-e> | :P |
| 12:15:41 | <abastro[m]> | Anyway thanks for reassuring me, so the concern is more strictly financial |
| 12:16:08 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: https://carboncloud.com/ |
| 12:16:54 | <maerwald> | or health care: https://www.holmusk.com/ |
| 12:17:38 | <maerwald> | diverse enough... I guess most of these applications are backends |
| 12:17:41 | <int-e> | . o O ( word cloud ) |
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| 12:18:23 | <abastro[m]> | Interesting |
| 12:18:26 | <int-e> | Sorry, I don't speak marketing. https://carboncloud.com/ manages to say *nothing* in 30 words. |
| 12:19:01 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: I also know of a company doing low-level network protocols for telephone providers in Haskell |
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| 12:19:17 | <int-e> | The "about" link isn't better. "We distill decades of climate research in pixels to reach the responsible to halt climate change" |
| 12:19:20 | <int-e> | pixels? |
| 12:19:48 | <maerwald> | it's just that those companies don't have the funding of Cardano |
| 12:19:55 | <abastro[m]> | I think they mean they are sorting the climate data out |
| 12:20:01 | <abastro[m]> | So that it is more accessible |
| 12:20:09 | <int-e> | ...I should probably rant about this elsewhere. Or be reasonable and just leave it there. |
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| 12:20:56 | <abastro[m]> | Also it is better for marketing if it gives good impression to ppl AND ppl do not know what it precise does |
| 12:21:37 | <int-e> | I'll say one more thing... They say they don't put up smokescreens but their whole blurb is a smokescreen. |
| 12:22:39 | <abastro[m]> | Haha tbh sounds like typical marketing |
| 12:23:39 | <maerwald> | industry bashing in haskell :p ...ppl complain about blockchain and now green tech to save the planet isn't good enough |
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| 12:25:16 | <abastro[m]> | Well I am still considerate that ppl will attribute cardano's fall towards its choice of language |
| 12:25:39 | <abastro[m]> | For choosing a language too hard for adoption |
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| 12:25:45 | <kuribas> | idris used to be written in haskell, but they rewrote it. |
| 12:26:03 | <merijn> | kuribas: It's written in Idris now, no? |
| 12:26:06 | <kuribas> | abastro[m]: tbf, I don't really think haskell has an advantage for crypto. |
| 12:26:08 | <kuribas> | merijn: yeah |
| 12:26:22 | <merijn> | kuribas: self-hosting is an obvious choice for any compiler |
| 12:26:36 | <merijn> | Don't think that's a strike against Haskell |
| 12:26:42 | <merijn> | Especially given the similarity |
| 12:26:55 | <abastro[m]> | Yea, personally I cannot understand why cardano picked haskell |
| 12:27:06 | <kuribas> | and compiles to chez scheme. |
| 12:27:29 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: the had an alternative node implementation in rust |
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| 12:28:09 | <Hecate> | yeah that was a prototype |
| 12:28:10 | <abastro[m]> | Yep, rust would make more sense |
| 12:28:18 | <abastro[m]> | Tho I guess python would suit them much better |
| 12:28:41 | <abastro[m]> | Much easier bar of entry |
| 12:28:43 | <maerwald> | Hecate: it actually works and is still developed |
| 12:28:52 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/input-output-hk/jormungandr |
| 12:29:16 | <Hecate> | ah I see |
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| 12:29:36 | <maerwald> | there are only myths about why Haskell was chosen over it, though :p |
| 12:30:01 | <maerwald> | (I'm guessing that Haskell fits better into the science-first approach from the marketing perspective) |
| 12:30:55 | <abastro[m]> | Tho I've indeed seen many ppl opposed to it simply because haskell |
| 12:31:06 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: in the non-technical blockchain community, yes |
| 12:31:10 | <maerwald> | that's understandable |
| 12:31:34 | <abastro[m]> | Indeed, and tbh I find most of the community non-technical |
| 12:31:49 | <maerwald> | to write smart contracts, you now need senior haskell devs with blockchain experience... |
| 12:32:00 | <maerwald> | instead of just some javascript trash |
| 12:32:03 | <abastro[m]> | Also they somehow promote their coin as "safer" just because they use haskell |
| 12:32:26 | <abastro[m]> | Or some random python moneky |
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| 12:33:27 | <abastro[m]> | But I think their tone of "using haskell makes the chain bulletproof" does not make sense as well |
| 12:33:38 | <maerwald> | for a blockchain, adoption matters... Haskell is seen as an issue there |
| 12:34:01 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: I've never actually heard that argument |
| 12:34:07 | <abastro[m]> | Simply adopting a language won't improve the security just because. |
| 12:34:25 | <maerwald> | Haskell doesn't even have strong focus on security :p |
| 12:34:50 | <juri_> | Haskell doesn't have a native SSL implementation worth using. |
| 12:35:02 | <maerwald> | it probably shouldn't |
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| 12:35:40 | <juri_> | I work at a place that writes security software in haskell. sometimes, it gets painful. |
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| 12:36:00 | <abastro[m]> | Charles Hoskinson, IOHK CEO, said that in a twitter |
| 12:36:12 | <maerwald> | abastro[m]: that's marketing |
| 12:36:22 | <abastro[m]> | Yep |
| 12:36:33 | <abastro[m]> | So that became one of the criticisms |
| 12:36:52 | <abastro[m]> | Sometimes leaking onto the haskell end as well |
| 12:37:08 | <maerwald> | there's some truth to it though, because the consensus protocol uses very heavy type-level programming |
| 12:37:17 | <maerwald> | if you consider that, maybe |
| 12:37:40 | <abastro[m]> | Maybe, but that doesn't make the protocol inherently safer, does it |
| 12:37:52 | <maerwald> | protocol correctness and types definitely correlate... but low-level security is a completely different topic |
| 12:37:55 | <abastro[m]> | Like there is certain limit types could get you far |
| 12:38:14 | <abastro[m]> | Low level security is important in crypto as well, right |
| 12:39:08 | <abastro[m]> | Btw, haskell is still small even in fintech area right? I was said that many ppl never heard of haskell in fintech area |
| 12:39:32 | <maerwald> | not sure any blockchain dev team runs proofs on their node binaries, though |
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| 12:42:23 | <abastro[m]> | How big is haskell in fintech in general |
| 12:42:42 | <abastro[m]> | Still minority, right? |
| 12:42:51 | <maerwald> | Java is more popular there for sure |
| 12:43:01 | <abastro[m]> | Simply because haskell is minority in the whole scene |
| 12:43:04 | <abastro[m]> | Yep |
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| 12:43:14 | <abastro[m]> | Idk what secure Java looks like but eh |
| 12:43:34 | <abastro[m]> | I heard many also still use COBOL |
| 12:44:30 | <maerwald> | banks don't have very large APIs exposed to the public internet :p |
| 12:45:04 | <abastro[m]> | Yea |
| 12:45:33 | <abastro[m]> | Guess that is why some manage to keep COBOL in their codebase |
| 12:45:42 | <maerwald> | Java has excellent paid support and you can compile old programs with very new compilers. Something that's impossible in Haskell |
| 12:46:26 | <abastro[m]> | Ouch |
| 12:46:45 | <abastro[m]> | Lack of backward compatibility hits hard |
| 12:46:58 | <maerwald> | and even in formal methods, it's not any worse than Haskell, probably... because the type system can so easily be extended |
| 12:47:16 | <maerwald> | https://www.cs.cornell.edu/jif/ |
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| 12:48:03 | <maerwald> | haskell has a couple of papers about IFC as well (one with arrows, one with monads afair) |
| 12:48:21 | <maerwald> | I tried both... java was easier :p |
| 12:49:03 | <maerwald> | except I got eye cancer from looking at the code |
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| 12:49:57 | <abastro[m]> | IFC? |
| 12:50:09 | <abastro[m]> | I did not know that Java could be extended |
| 12:50:13 | <maerwald> | information flow control |
| 12:50:45 | <abastro> | Now I wonder why haskell is used in fintech at all |
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| 12:51:59 | <maerwald> | probably has to do more with what type of engineers those companies attract |
| 12:53:33 | <abastro> | I see, they might even be able to employ haskellers without much problem |
| 12:53:36 | <merijn> | abastro: It's less true now (since Haskell has been growing a lot the past decade(s)), but 10 years ago the average Haskeller was *much* more skilled than the average "anything else" programmar. So it's a good selection filter for looking for expensive, experienced engineers |
| 12:53:53 | <merijn> | And letting them use the tools they like is just a negotiation strategy |
| 12:54:22 | <abastro> | Also explains why haskell use is much uncommon in smaller countries |
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| 12:54:51 | <abastro> | Hm, so nowadays average haskell programmers are comparable to other average programmers? |
| 12:55:21 | <merijn> | I don't think so, but it's hard to judge since there's no real good way to poll. It also depends how you define "haskell programmer" :) |
| 12:55:35 | <maerwald> | yeah, if you get a star programmer to join your company, the last thing you want to do is tell them what tech to use |
| 12:55:45 | <abastro> | Aha, I se |
| 12:55:51 | <abastro> | s/se/see |
| 12:56:01 | <abastro> | Haskell had many star programmers? |
| 12:56:08 | <maerwald> | every language has them |
| 12:56:40 | <maerwald> | but I'd argue they're the ones introducing new languages to the industry |
| 12:57:15 | <maerwald> | because the company has enough confidence in whatever decision they make |
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| 13:01:02 | <abastro> | This kind of star programmers would be rarer in smaller countries I guess |
| 13:01:21 | <abastro> | Which explains why it veers towards certain language |
| 13:01:38 | <maerwald> | abastro: nah, they just leave for silicon valley :p |
| 13:02:26 | <abastro> | !oh |
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| 13:03:21 | <abastro> | I wonder how much talent they would have, so that they can simply go for silicon valley |
| 13:04:36 | <exarkun> | "Talent" is kind of a confusing idea here. |
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| 13:04:55 | <abastro> | Is it? |
| 13:05:10 | <exarkun> | It's not like people are born as expert Haskell programmers |
| 13:05:39 | <exarkun> | And it's also not the case that if your only skill is being an amazing Haskell programmer you'll be a good addition to any particular team |
| 13:06:01 | <exarkun> | Also a lot of SV companies hire a lot of people who are not amazing programmers (for good reasons and for bad reasons). |
| 13:06:56 | <abastro> | Yep, I mean those haskellers who was talented enough to be hired by SV companies |
| 13:07:15 | <exarkun> | But did they get hired because they are "talented"? |
| 13:07:17 | <Hecate> | it's not just talent but also culture fit |
| 13:07:27 | <abastro> | If they are not talented and they prefer haskell, why would they hire them? |
| 13:07:34 | <abastro> | Culture fit? |
| 13:07:38 | <Hecate> | and some dose of nepotism |
| 13:07:41 | <exarkun> | You assume tech hiring is a rational process based on total knowledge. |
| 13:07:42 | <Hecate> | well yes |
| 13:07:51 | <Hecate> | abastro: have you ever been involved in recruiting? |
| 13:08:11 | <maerwald> | Never seen a company that cares about culture fit beyond being scared about their public image |
| 13:08:21 | <exarkun> | maerwald: I've seen plenty |
| 13:08:27 | <Hecate> | same |
| 13:08:40 | <exarkun> | There is quite a range of understanding about what "culture fit" actually /means/ |
| 13:08:57 | <maerwald> | My experience is that toxic employees will always be tolerated if they're very productive. |
| 13:09:05 | <exarkun> | Sometimes it just means "it was easy to have an enjoyable conversation during the interview" |
| 13:09:18 | <exarkun> | maerwald: That sounds like a bummer, sorry to hear it. |
| 13:09:32 | <abastro> | Never involed in recruiting, yes |
| 13:09:43 | <exarkun> | I am not skeptical at all that there are companies that run that way (I worked at one for a while). |
| 13:09:53 | <abastro> | My english is bad enough to not understand what culture fit means. |
| 13:10:01 | <exarkun> | But I have also worked at companies that veer the other way ("culture fit" is priority, technical ability is a distant second). |
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| 13:10:33 | <abastro> | Does it mean if the person is good at pleasing the higher-ups? |
| 13:10:49 | <abastro> | Like being great at flattery? Because that is one of the prime factors of being hired in where I live |
| 13:10:50 | <maerwald> | "culture fit" as in "is excited about agile"? :p |
| 13:11:05 | <Hecate> | abastro: it's evaluating how much the person in front of you will integrate in your organisation's culture |
| 13:11:14 | <Hecate> | sometimes they're looking for people with no life |
| 13:11:14 | <abastro> | Wait, isn't that like |
| 13:11:19 | <abastro> | Much, MUCH reasonable |
| 13:11:23 | <Hecate> | sometimes they're looking for people who are not assholes |
| 13:11:28 | <shapr> | yeah, that |
| 13:11:29 | <abastro> | Like it could be more reasonable than just technical skills |
| 13:11:45 | <exarkun> | abastro: Sure. On the surface, it sounds like a good thing. |
| 13:11:45 | <abastro> | I expected them to hire those who are just great at flattery |
| 13:12:06 | <abastro> | And good at hiding/covering what higher-up does |
| 13:12:20 | <shapr> | For example, Recurse Center entrance filter is mostly about being kind. They assume you can be trained to have more technical skills, that's easier than retraining someone to be pleasant and nice. |
| 13:12:31 | <abastro> | I mean, the culture fit could backfire and is bad for certain cases I guess, but that is not what I expected |
| 13:12:39 | <exarkun> | The downside is that it leaves a lot of room for bias in the process. |
| 13:12:46 | <abastro> | Indeed |
| 13:12:56 | <exarkun> | Maybe a recruiter didn't get along with a candidate because the /recruiter/ is the asshole... |
| 13:13:15 | <shapr> | exarkun: I've experienced that |
| 13:13:19 | <Hecate> | this is why you don't have *one* person interacting with a candidate |
| 13:13:20 | <maerwald> | exarkun: yeah, I've never considered "culture fit" when I interviewed. Because it's too unspecific. I look for specific things. |
| 13:13:32 | <abastro> | Better than hiring based on flattery ability at least |
| 13:13:38 | <exarkun> | maerwald: I tend to prefer to look for concrete, quantifiable traits too, yea. |
| 13:13:57 | <maerwald> | the main thing I look for is engagement |
| 13:14:00 | <abastro> | Or being employed through lines |
| 13:14:03 | <exarkun> | I mean, if someone acts like a total asshole in an interview, I might disqualify them. |
| 13:14:22 | <maerwald> | if a candidate starts babbling excitedly about some tech I have never heard of... great |
| 13:14:27 | <exarkun> | But if they're bad at eye contact, if they're nervous, if they have different hobbies than me, none of that stuff is relevant to whether they'll be good at the job. |
| 13:14:32 | <abastro> | I feel like culture fit should be minimum requirement |
| 13:14:58 | <exarkun> | abastro: How do you measure it in an interview? |
| 13:15:02 | <abastro> | Babbling excitedly about some tech never heard of, wouldn't that drop the candidte right off the bat? |
| 13:15:10 | <abastro> | I mean, yea, hard dto measure |
| 13:15:36 | <abastro> | Won't companies dismiss ppl who speak about new techs in interview |
| 13:15:45 | <exarkun> | Anyway there's as many hiring process philosophies as there are managers at companies, or more |
| 13:15:58 | <abastro> | They'd rather consider ppl who fits well with company's existing systems |
| 13:16:00 | <exarkun> | And as a first approximation, nobody /really/ knows how to generalize the good ones. |
| 13:16:28 | <exarkun> | abastro: That's a great way to build a rigid monoculture |
| 13:16:44 | <abastro> | Yeah, most of the companies in my country are rigid monocultures |
| 13:16:54 | <abastro> | Isn't it what companies are supposed to be? |
| 13:16:54 | <exarkun> | If everyone on the team likes and knows the same tools, you're going to have a lot of blind spots. |
| 13:16:57 | <juri_> | i hire a lot, and a lot of what i'm looking for is strong opinions. i'm here to hire people good at what they do, and to listen to them, so i don't sound dumb / do the wrong thing. |
| 13:17:09 | <abastro> | Wow |
| 13:17:10 | <maerwald> | exarkun: exactly, so maybe the "culture fit" angle is actually detrimental to the goal ;) |
| 13:17:15 | <exarkun> | In some industries, maybe that's fine. In software, probably not so much., |
| 13:17:17 | <abastro> | That sounds like truly another world |
| 13:17:19 | <exarkun> | maerwald: right |
| 13:17:30 | <abastro> | I mean, that is precisely what is happening in SW scene in my country |
| 13:17:34 | <exarkun> | In some ways, the other popular buzzword "diversity" is the opposite of "culture fit". |
| 13:17:39 | <abastro> | I think it should be similar for Japan and China |
| 13:17:44 | <exarkun> | Culture fit - hire people just like us |
| 13:17:48 | <exarkun> | Diversity - hire people different from us |
| 13:17:54 | <exarkun> | It's fun when a company wants to do both at the same time. |
| 13:18:17 | <abastro> | Better be fun if you can't do it great |
| 13:18:25 | <exarkun> | :) |
| 13:18:31 | <juri_> | i don't see those as oposing positions. my team is very argumentative, so people like us can defend their positions, and more importantly, be wrong gracefully. |
| 13:18:44 | <abastro> | Rigid SW companies clinging to Java 5/6 is stereotypical SW tech company |
| 13:19:04 | <abastro> | Or with jQuery for frontend |
| 13:19:54 | <raehik> | Is it possible to push a package to Hackage that relies on a non-Hackage dependency (i.e. a directory in a GitHub repo, specified in cabal.project)? |
| 13:20:04 | <Hecate> | raehik: nope and that's by design |
| 13:20:13 | <Hecate> | every reasonable package repo will put this limit on you |
| 13:20:31 | <maerwald> | raehik: you'll have to bundle/vendor that dependency into your code |
| 13:20:31 | <raehik> | mm. I had kind of imagined |
| 13:20:51 | <abastro> | Actually you guys are mostly working in best kinds of companies right |
| 13:20:59 | <raehik> | cheers Hecate , maerwald ! |
| 13:21:06 | <Hecate> | I'm working for a Swedish legaltech that uses Haskell in the backend |
| 13:21:09 | shapr | hugs Hecate for awesome |
| 13:21:26 | <Hecate> | my managers are kind, competent and open to new ideas |
| 13:21:29 | <abastro> | Yep, sounds like one of the best |
| 13:21:34 | <Hecate> | I'd say I found a very good fit |
| 13:21:48 | <Hecate> | oh, and we're not controlled by the accountants |
| 13:21:50 | <shapr> | Hecate: jättekul! |
| 13:21:55 | <Hecate> | even though we're not a startup |
| 13:21:57 | <abastro> | I imagine only 1% of SW companies would be like that |
| 13:22:02 | <juri_> | I'm working in management at a secure messaging company with a Haskell based backend. |
| 13:22:13 | <juri_> | I have become the enemy. |
| 13:22:17 | <Hecate> | shapr: yeah it's cool :) |
| 13:22:20 | <abastro> | enemy? |
| 13:22:22 | <Hecate> | juri_: you're at Wire? :) |
| 13:22:36 | <abastro> | Oh. you mean manager? |
| 13:22:47 | <juri_> | Hecate: yeah. backend chapter lead. :) |
| 13:22:54 | <Hecate> | juri_: :) |
| 13:23:33 | <juri_> | it's very stressy, but i learn a lot, so.. :) |
| 13:23:50 | <Hecate> | juri_: do you get to store this knowledge somewhere outside of the company? |
| 13:23:59 | <Hecate> | like writing public blog posts or in open-source projects? |
| 13:24:05 | <abastro> | I guess if you reach higher, more advanced companies, it is harder to see troubles usual in typical companies. |
| 13:24:15 | <maerwald> | juri_: Berlin? |
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| 13:24:21 | <juri_> | maerwald: yep. |
| 13:24:30 | <maerwald> | think I've been to a talk at your company then :p |
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| 13:24:35 | <abastro> | Like those being rigid in choices or preference towards simple obedience |
| 13:25:30 | <juri_> | Hecate: no, honestly, it takes up so much of my life it's hard to work on my actual passion projects. plus, i don't write well / much. landed in management due to a car accident, that took my "i grind out code all day" hands away. |
| 13:25:33 | <Hecate> | I don't want to live my current company but I'd love to experiment with a worker cooperative one day |
| 13:25:46 | <Hecate> | juri_: ow :-( |
| 13:25:50 | <Hecate> | I see |
| 13:26:12 | <Hecate> | maerwald: take care of your hands, otherwise you're going to end up in management! |
| 13:26:27 | <abastro> | When management position is pain |
| 13:26:33 | <maerwald> | Hecate: I lost a finger last year already ;) coding with 9 now |
| 13:26:50 | <Hecate> | maerwald: is it still attached? |
| 13:26:52 | <juri_> | i WAS a linux kernel hacker when that was cool. and when cool was cool. moved to haskell because thinking all day to write 50 lines is more effective than writing code for 30 minutes a day. |
| 13:26:53 | <maerwald> | yep |
| 13:26:57 | <maerwald> | just not usable |
| 13:27:03 | <juri_> | maerwald: emacs pinky? |
| 13:27:07 | <Hecate> | oki |
| 13:27:10 | <raehik> | quick follow up question, who's to stop me chucking this (GPL2) non-Hackage lib onto Hackage? (sorry to interrupt storytime :( ) |
| 13:27:21 | <maerwald> | juri_: left index finger |
| 13:27:26 | <maerwald> | the worst to lose :p |
| 13:27:29 | <raehik> | do Hackage maintainers ask for proper creds or whatever, I'm unsure |
| 13:27:33 | <maerwald> | covers 6 keys |
| 13:27:38 | <juri_> | maerwald: ouch. |
| 13:28:01 | <Hecate> | raehik: https://hackage.haskell.org/accounts |
| 13:28:18 | <Hecate> | wait, is it your library, raehik ? |
| 13:28:27 | <raehik> | Nope |
| 13:28:45 | <abastro> | sorry for interrupting questions, I ranted and started this convo |
| 13:28:53 | <raehik> | it's keystone, they have Haskell bindings https://github.com/keystone-engine/keystone/tree/master/bindings/haskell |
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| 13:29:26 | <juri_> | I ended up with untreatable nerve damage, due to a car accident. cracked C3. had to move to split keyboard / custom dvorakish keymap. |
| 13:29:27 | <raehik> | no being sorry for *discussion* on IRC! :D |
| 13:29:30 | <Hecate> | raehik: ask them first ;-) |
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| 13:29:52 | <raehik> | Hecate: AGH fine but now my builds are all broken >:( |
| 13:29:56 | <raehik> | ty |
| 13:30:08 | <Hecate> | juri_: aouch, cervical? damn :/ |
| 13:30:41 | <juri_> | the above ^-- is enough conversation i'm going to have to rest for a bit. biology sucks. need to 3d print a new me. hense, github.com/Haskell-Things/ , my 'all 3d printing tools in haskell' project. |
| 13:30:42 | <abastro> | Think the one commited on the repo was one of active ppl in haskell discourse |
| 13:31:00 | <Hecate> | juri_: rest well, see you later |
| 13:31:18 | juri_ | nods |
| 13:31:23 | <maerwald> | juri_: I'm also 3d printing my own keyboards ^^ |
| 13:31:27 | <abastro> | (so it would be not hard to contact them - hardfully) |
| 13:31:32 | <maerwald> | but kinesis advantage 2 is still the best |
| 13:31:36 | <abastro> | s/hardfully/thankfully |
| 13:31:47 | <Hecate> | juri_: did you see the extra thumb controlled with big toe movement? |
| 13:32:04 | <Hecate> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmcM683JIgU |
| 13:32:26 | <abastro> | Hm seeing as how ppl lose fingers etc.. is SW one of the hazardous job? |
| 13:33:34 | <maerwald> | you should check out this if you're looking for ergonomic splits: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/moergo/glove80-the-incredibly-comfortable-ergonomic-keyboard |
| 13:34:11 | <maerwald> | abastro: sitting is one of the most unhealthy things you can do, yes |
| 13:34:23 | <abastro> | Oh no |
| 13:34:37 | <maerwald> | there are studies indicating it's worse than being a chain smoker |
| 13:35:06 | <abastro> | I should be careful then |
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| 13:35:43 | <exarkun> | get up and take a walk once in a while, or get a standing/sitting desk so you can change your position throughout the day |
| 13:36:08 | <abastro> | Gotta make sure to move around! |
| 13:36:30 | <maerwald> | exarkun: only building real muscle helped me |
| 13:36:36 | <maerwald> | like, back, shoulders |
| 13:36:46 | <exarkun> | sure, there's levels |
| 13:36:58 | <exarkun> | and I usually prefer to believe that most people are about the same, while they're healthy |
| 13:37:04 | <exarkun> | and then everybody manages to break themselves in a unique way :) |
| 13:37:27 | <maerwald> | at least we met the deadline |
| 13:37:38 | <exarkun> | for building muscle, I recommend getting a sheep farm |
| 13:38:10 | <maerwald> | they need attention *every* day, lol |
| 13:38:44 | <maerwald> | maybe there's an app for this |
| 13:38:59 | <Clint> | attending to sheep? |
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| 14:06:51 | <juri_> | Hecate: interesting, no. :) |
| 14:07:02 | <maerwald> | juri_: is Artyom still working there? |
| 14:07:30 | <juri_> | maerwald: nope, he left about 6 months after i joined. i do miss him. :) |
| 14:07:45 | <juri_> | his classes were nice. i attended them. :) |
| 14:09:07 | <merijn> | weightlifting helped a ton with removing precursor RSI symptoms and not going to the gym a lot the past 2 years has noticably made stuff worse |
| 14:09:08 | <Hecate> | his Aeson guide is fantastic |
| 14:09:22 | <Hecate> | get buffed! |
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| 14:09:53 | <merijn> | Pretty sure my personal max halved in two years >.> I should go back to the office again so I get back into gym habit :p |
| 14:10:12 | <juri_> | Hecate: I haven't managed to get through that, but it's in my browser atm. my haskell is.. what haskell looks like when a hobbled C programmer moves to haskell. :) |
| 14:10:25 | <Hecate> | juri_: ;-D |
| 14:10:35 | <Hecate> | it's okay, I trust you to do C |
| 14:11:23 | <juri_> | I am still breaking myself of all of the internalized micro-optimizations from writing C for 20 years. it's just not needed! |
| 14:11:50 | <juri_> | that said, i swear i ran across a haskell compiler bug a few days back. my first! |
| 14:12:23 | <maerwald> | merijn: push ups (the ones with elbows close to the torso)... don't need gym :p |
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| 14:15:21 | <maerwald> | I'll send you a bottle of Auchentoshan if you manage to do more than 3 (twitch stream?) |
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| 14:21:36 | <merijn> | Pushups are *literally* the most hellish exercise |
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| 14:22:22 | <merijn> | maerwald: I could do about 10 proper ones. Now probably 1-2? *Maybe* 3 if I struggle a lot |
| 14:22:34 | <maerwald> | start the stream :D |
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| 14:22:46 | <merijn> | Three Wood is the only Auchentoshan worht a damn, though :p |
| 14:23:11 | <maerwald> | sure, what else would I have |
| 14:23:29 | <merijn> | The frustration to effectiveness ratio for weightlifting is better than pushups. I quite like oly lifting |
| 14:24:25 | byorgey | wants to know how I can get a bottle of Auchentoshan too |
| 14:24:43 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 14:25:41 | <maerwald> | merijn: IME, the main problem is weak core muscles... that leads to imbalances in sitting posture, that leads to back and neck issues, goes to shoulders and elbows and finally hits your finger. And only then you notice :D |
| 14:25:41 | <merijn> | byorgey: Pushups, apparently :p |
| 14:26:00 | <maerwald> | and then wonder why your finger hurts |
| 14:26:03 | <merijn> | maerwald: Sounds about right from what I know |
| 14:26:22 | <maerwald> | then you go to the doc, they do MRI on your finger and say "hey, that looks fine" |
| 14:26:24 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 14:26:28 | <merijn> | Weightlifting is pretty good for core |
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| 14:26:53 | <merijn> | But yeah, so are pushups |
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| 14:27:17 | <merijn> | Pushups require quite a lot of base strength in shoulders/arms to begin, though |
| 14:27:31 | <merijn> | And it's easier to do bad pushups, which renders them drastically less effective |
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| 14:28:57 | <maerwald> | we could start a Haskell Foundation pushup group |
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| 14:31:22 | <juri_> | No. i would die. :) |
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| 14:53:49 | <abastro> | What's so hard with 10 pushups |
| 14:54:23 | <abastro> | Oh I just thought it was matter of putting my body close to the floor |
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| 14:55:39 | <merijn> | abastro: There's two kinds of people: People who think 10+ pushups are hard and people who are doing their pushups wrong :D |
| 14:56:00 | <merijn> | (technically there's also the extremely ultra-fit, but those are a negligible percentage of the population) |
| 14:56:59 | <exarkun> | isn't "... ultra-fit ... negligible percentage ..." a tautology |
| 14:57:10 | <exarkun> | if more people were fitter then you would have to be even fitter to be ultra-fit |
| 14:57:33 | <exarkun> | Any good / widely-used Haskell source formatters I can plug into my emacs config? |
| 14:58:00 | <juri_> | ormolu? |
| 14:58:35 | <exarkun> | > Any of several copper and zinc or tin alloys resembling gold in appearance |
| 14:58:37 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘of’ |
| 14:58:42 | <exarkun> | sorry lambdabot |
| 14:59:01 | <abastro> | I have to practice more correct pushups then |
| 14:59:03 | <exarkun> | oh yea it's on melpa, great, ty |
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| 14:59:21 | <exarkun> | juri_: is the question mark that you're not sure if it is good or if you're not sure if it's widely-used or something else? :) |
| 14:59:24 | <abastro> | I mean, I saw many ppl who actually do 10 pushups and they looked great in posture. Though that might be illusion :P |
| 14:59:41 | <juri_> | exarkun: it's the only one i know. :) |
| 14:59:56 | <exarkun> | abastro: 10 push-ups is only about as hard as writing a nice "hello world" program |
| 14:59:56 | <merijn> | Good auto-formatter is a contradiction ;) |
| 15:00:06 | <exarkun> | looks hard to someone who never tried, otherwise pretty trivial |
| 15:00:09 | <merijn> | exarkun: It's really not |
| 15:00:26 | <abastro> | I'd say 10 pushups are not trivial at least, though. |
| 15:00:29 | <merijn> | Takes me a solid month of routine pushup practice to be able to properly do 10 |
| 15:00:42 | <abastro> | I mean, who doesn't do routine pushups |
| 15:00:46 | <exarkun> | And there are a lot of people who would take at least that long to get to "hello world" :) |
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| 15:11:34 | <maerwald> | exarkun: not chicken pushups |
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| 15:11:49 | <maerwald> | elbows close to the torso and try again ;) |
| 15:11:51 | <exarkun> | Are these pushups that you do while a chicken is standing on you? |
| 15:12:01 | <exarkun> | Ah I see. |
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| 15:12:29 | <maerwald> | no, it means you spread your elbows, which causes your chest and supraspinatus to do most of the work |
| 15:13:06 | <maerwald> | also increases excersice injury |
| 15:13:14 | <exarkun> | delightful |
| 15:13:42 | <exarkun> | I am a fan of taking care of the equipment |
| 15:13:46 | <abastro> | I thought pushup was a chest exercise |
| 15:13:53 | <InstX1> | exarkun -> [exa]? |
| 15:13:57 | <exarkun> | InstX1: nope |
| 15:14:19 | <InstX1> | also maerwald: if I'm reading it correctly, is the new HF director viewing Haskell in the same way I do, i.e, we need more posers, codemonkeys, kids, and randumbs? |
| 15:14:33 | <maerwald> | wat? |
| 15:15:06 | <InstX1> | https://discourse.haskell.org/t/new-executive-director-for-the-haskell-foundation/4290 |
| 15:15:22 | <InstX1> | David has impressed upon me the importance of reaching out beyond current Haskell communities, seeking new voices and approaches. Haskell is a language that anyone can master – but we have work to do to have its perception match that reality. I know David is committed to that course of action, and of focusing on the practical aspects of Haskell use that affect the Haskell community broadly. |
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| 15:15:48 | <InstX1> | my point is that you need more kids to learn haskell as a first language, you want managers to learn haskell to create toy apps for their needs that their IT department can clean up |
| 15:15:59 | <maerwald> | I'm not sure why you're asking me. I don't know the guy, but only heard high praises. |
| 15:16:03 | <InstX1> | oh okay |
| 15:16:17 | <InstX1> | well, you know, you're fairly high up, what the hell would we do without GHCup? :) |
| 15:16:29 | <maerwald> | it's a small tool -.- |
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| 15:16:51 | <InstX1> | it's an important one |
| 15:17:09 | <InstX1> | if Haskell Platform were dead, and GHCup didn't exist, I probably wouldn't have given Haskell another shot |
| 15:17:21 | <abastro> | "Small tool" wow |
| 15:17:26 | <InstX1> | Modesty :) |
| 15:17:29 | <abastro> | someone better quote it |
| 15:17:41 | <maerwald> | Well, it is. If you compare it with HLS or cabal |
| 15:18:00 | <abastro> | Without ghcup it is much bigger pain to install cabal/HLS |
| 15:18:03 | <InstX1> | if both stack and cabal teams approached you |
| 15:18:21 | <InstX1> | to merge projects, i.e, better integration between stack or cabal with GHCup |
| 15:18:28 | <InstX1> | which team would you choose? |
| 15:19:07 | <maerwald> | that's an odd question |
| 15:19:18 | <maerwald> | let's say integration with cabal is easy, because it mostly follows unix principles |
| 15:19:28 | <maerwald> | with stack I tried, but https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/pull/5585 |
| 15:19:29 | <InstX1> | stack i uninstalled |
| 15:19:35 | <InstX1> | because stack created like 20 different GHCs |
| 15:19:43 | <InstX1> | and kept on messing with my path variables |
| 15:19:54 | <maerwald> | yeah, there's a relatively simple solution to it... my patch isn't even very big |
| 15:20:35 | <abastro> | Wow, no convo? |
| 15:20:36 | <maerwald> | and I found stack codebase somewhat pleasent to work with, tbh |
| 15:21:15 | <abastro> | Surprising seeing no discussion in the PR |
| 15:21:40 | <maerwald> | I didn't try very hard (like pinging maintainers per email) though |
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| 15:22:16 | <abastro> | I see, still |
| 15:22:16 | <maerwald> | Snoyman seems to have little time for stack atm has he explained in his blog post |
| 15:22:29 | <abastro> | Hmm |
| 15:22:43 | <abastro> | <del>Cabal + Stack when</del> |
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| 15:23:17 | <merijn> | InstX1: There is no stack team left :p |
| 15:23:22 | <merijn> | So that's a simple decision |
| 15:23:54 | <maerwald> | merijn: tbf, it's quite maintainable (module a few rather complicated libraries) |
| 15:24:02 | <maerwald> | *modulo |
| 15:24:07 | <maerwald> | (like pantry, brr) |
| 15:24:11 | <InstX1> | merijn: so stack is officially discontinued? |
| 15:24:15 | <maerwald> | no |
| 15:24:18 | <InstX1> | wait, is Snoyman the guy who got fed up because of Cardano? |
| 15:24:35 | <merijn> | InstX1: stack is "community maintenance" |
| 15:25:19 | <juri_> | maerwald: remind me to rant at you about 'mostly' following unix principles. spoiler: I ship/use a Makefile for all of my projects. |
| 15:25:37 | <InstX1> | but it's basically dead, it'll be kept maintained vs security issues, but it's not moving forward |
| 15:25:37 | <exarkun> | wait, what happened to stack? |
| 15:25:42 | <InstX1> | it feels like GHCup ate stack :) |
| 15:25:50 | <abastro> | Stack is relatively unmaintained? |
| 15:26:01 | <abastro> | Eh, ghcup and stack has different niche |
| 15:27:11 | <abastro> | I did not know cabal follows unix principles "mostly" |
| 15:27:16 | <maerwald> | I think the main issue is that it's still based on Cabal-3.2 |
| 15:27:37 | <abastro> | Guess some noncomplliant parts are not so compatible |
| 15:27:38 | <maerwald> | so it's kind of at the mercy of cabal devs, in fact... wrt backwards compat |
| 15:29:04 | <merijn> | exarkun: Snoyman had another kid :p |
| 15:30:42 | <exarkun> | aha |
| 15:30:53 | <maerwald> | https://www.snoyman.com/blog/babies-oss-maintenance/ |
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| 15:32:08 | <maerwald> | at any rate... even if stack will not survive, I'm pretty sure stackage will |
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| 15:34:59 | <maerwald> | there's already a cabal branch where you can import remote stackage set in your cabal.project |
| 15:35:26 | <sm> | good morning all! |
| 15:35:28 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/7783 |
| 15:35:28 | sm | learns about pushups |
| 15:35:52 | <maerwald> | sm: how many can you do? |
| 15:36:48 | <abastro> | How do you put star like that? Messages like `* {nick} foo bar` |
| 15:36:57 | <maerwald> | /me ... |
| 15:37:00 | <sm> | that is an embarassing question.. :/ I typically do 10, can reliably do 20, if I want to really suffer could probably do a little more |
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| 15:38:15 | abastro | tries the command |
| 15:38:23 | <abastro> | Thx! Learned a lot toay |
| 15:38:29 | <abastro> | s/toay/today |
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| 15:53:51 | <sm> | maerwald: how about you ? and what's a "proper" arms-in pushup - how low do you go ? |
| 15:54:39 | <maerwald> | I can do 10. 3 sets, the last one usually 6 or 7 |
| 15:54:54 | <maerwald> | slow, elbows to the torso |
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| 15:56:33 | <sm> | 3 x 10 ? how long do you reset between sets ? how low do you go ? If you don't mind me asking |
| 15:56:45 | sm | will use "catch up with maerwald" to motivate |
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| 15:59:01 | <maerwald> | 1-2 minutes break |
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| 16:00:41 | <sm> | ok, I'm going to assume "to 90 degree elbows" |
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| 16:02:24 | <ss-> | I'm trying to use `stack build --profile` to build a project with profiling, but no matter what I do I keep getting errors like "Perhaps you haven't installed the profiling libraries for package `base-4.15.1.0`" when building dependencies. I've tried rm -rf ~/.stack (and stack exec -- which ghc shows ~/.stack/...). anyone have any ideas for what I |
| 16:02:25 | <ss-> | might be doing wrong here? |
| 16:02:53 | <geekosaur> | the profiling libraries for base have to come with your ghc, stack cannot build them |
| 16:02:59 | <geekosaur> | (base is wired into ghc) |
| 16:03:13 | <geekosaur> | where did you install your ghc from? |
| 16:04:01 | <ss-> | I used to stack to install ghc iirc, or at least I thought I did |
| 16:04:17 | <abastro> | Think lower than 90 degree elbows is the way to go with pushups |
| 16:04:34 | <ss-> | on arch linux, I think I did...sudo pacman -S stack into stack build? |
| 16:04:34 | <merijn> | abastro: nose touching ground with straight back is |
| 16:04:46 | sm | groans |
| 16:04:54 | <merijn> | ss-: Never trust arch pacman for haskell tooling |
| 16:05:21 | <merijn> | ss-: They (intentionally!) install a bunch of stuff that's non-functional for default Haskell usage |
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| 16:05:29 | <sm> | hahaha.. how did I guess it was arch |
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| 16:05:56 | <maerwald> | someone should tell arch devs how much support work they caused to us |
| 16:06:00 | <ss-> | what's the easiest fix? uninstall stack and reinstall with ghcup or something? |
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| 16:06:18 | <maerwald> | ss-: stack should install correct GHCs by itself unless you use --system-ghc |
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| 16:08:33 | <geekosaur> | I don't think even they can break stack that badly, yeh. it should do the right thing unless, as maerwald says, you used --system-ghc in which case you got an intentionally hobbled compiler |
| 16:08:38 | <ss-> | that's what I'd thought, and stack exec -- which ghc shows ~/.stack/... I've also just done stack config set system-ghc false (and --global false) to be sure, but stack build --profile still fails |
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| 16:10:07 | <ss-> | is it possible the specific dependencies i'm trying to use don't have profiling builds somehow? using lts-19.1, and it seems to be failing specifically on cereal-0.5.8.2, hashable-1.3.5.0 for example |
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| 16:11:00 | <geekosaur> | stack shouldnotice that and rebuild them appropriately. base, ghc-prim, and template-haskell are the ones it can't |
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| 16:14:04 | <sm> | I believe `cd ~/.stack; fd base-4` should show both `libHSbase-4.14.3.0.a` and `libHSbase-4.14.3.0_p.a`, eg |
| 16:15:18 | <geekosaur> | .p_a, I think, but yes. you may have to nuke .stack and .stack-work again after changing system-ghc though, that may confuse it |
| 16:17:17 | <ss-> | only see libHSbase-4.15.1.0.a, no _p.a. i did try nuking both .stack and .stack-work a few times, maybe i'll try it again with a different resolver |
| 16:17:41 | <sm> | what's stack --version |
| 16:17:56 | <sm> | and `arch` |
| 16:19:07 | <ss-> | Version 2.7.5, Git revision ba147e6f59b2da75b1beb98b1888cce97f7032b1 (dirty) (8407 commits) x86_64, arch is x86_64 |
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| 16:20:48 | <sm> | and the ghc version / resolver ? something recent ? |
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| 16:22:31 | <ss-> | stack exec -- which ghc shows 9.0.2, resolver 19.1 |
| 16:23:34 | <ss-> | trying it with a different resolver now actually |
| 16:23:35 | <sm> | weird. Maybe `stack setup --reinstall 9.0.2` makes a difference ? |
| 16:24:43 | sm | notes that --reinstall forces it to install ghc even when config.yaml says not to |
| 16:24:43 | <glguy> | Axman6: I think "glirc" is only a notification if you copy the sample config on the wiki where I showed a slimmed down copy of what I was using, but it's not in the executable's default, at least. |
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| 16:27:10 | <abastro[m]> | It doesn't seem to notify me at least, even with default config |
| 16:29:11 | <glguy> | abastro[m]: there isn't a default config |
| 16:29:43 | <abastro[m]> | Oh, I mean one from wiki |
| 16:30:49 | <abastro[m]> | Btw why does glirc not generate the folder `~/.config/glirc`? |
| 16:31:34 | <glguy> | It never writes to your configuration file; that's something you do |
| 16:32:03 | <ss-> | ah so stack setup --reinstall 9.0.2 now gives me an error "gcc: error: unrecognized command-line option '--target=x86_64-unknown-linux'" (maybe this is the root of my problems?). if i change the resolver to lts-18.24, stack build --profile seems to now work |
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| 16:35:42 | <ss-> | also noticing that stack setup --reinstall 8.10.7 is a 200 MB download, stack setup --reinstall 9.0.2 is a 116 MB download for what it's worth |
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| 16:38:32 | <sm> | I don't know the cause, but switching to a ghcup-installed ghc could be a workaround |
| 16:41:36 | <sm> | https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/5652 looks relevant |
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| 16:43:09 | <sm> | stackage nightly has 9.2.2, maybe you could use that |
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| 16:45:14 | <ss-> | yes, i just tried switching to nightly-2022-03-31 and it seems to work! build hasn't finished yet, but fd base-4 shows the profiling libraries |
| 16:45:22 | <ss-> | thanks for all the help! |
| 16:45:29 | <janus> | ooh, one more reason to prefer 9.2.2 over 9.0.2 |
| 16:45:53 | <sm> | great. I'd like to know if 9.2.2 is faster on linux, too |
| 16:46:25 | <sm> | on x86, I mean |
| 16:46:49 | sm | is hoping 9.2.2 turns out to be a good GHC |
| 16:47:03 | <maerwald> | you mean 9.2.3 |
| 16:47:15 | <sm> | argh |
| 16:47:21 | <janus> | it sounds like https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/20959 is also affecting 9.2.2 |
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| 16:48:25 | <sm> | we seem to have a quality control problem |
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| 16:51:10 | <abastro[m]> | No hls for 9.2.2? :< |
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| 16:54:27 | <sm> | thanks janus, that's a nice issue. You know it's a fun one when both Simons get involved |
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| 16:55:32 | <sm> | abastro: no, I keep forgetting the reason, but you can build it yourself: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/tqzxy1/now_that_stackage_supports_ghc_92_is_it_easy_to/i2qdpop/ |
| 16:57:49 | <c_wraith> | that is a really cool ticket. Also unfortunate that GHC sometimes produces broken code. But that debugging is great. |
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| 16:59:33 | <sm> | +1 |
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| 17:16:33 | <ss-> | sadly got a ghc panic while building with 9.2.2 (building `vulkan-api`, something about mightEqualLater unbounded cbv), and lts-19.0 seemed to have the same profiling issue. but 9.0.1 (nightly-2022-01-06) builds and profiling works. thanks again sm! |
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| 17:21:03 | <sm> | yikes. np |
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| 19:08:40 | <maerwald> | hasql has a refreshing API. Without typeclasses. |
| 19:08:59 | <Rembane> | maerwald: Just functions? |
| 19:09:21 | <maerwald> | you specify encoders and decoders |
| 19:09:31 | <maerwald> | or use TH-automagic quasiquoter |
| 19:10:10 | <Rembane> | That sounds sane for that domain. |
| 19:10:14 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-1.5.0.2/docs/Hasql-Statement.html |
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| 19:53:01 | <Boarders_> | Is there a straight forward way to life a Parsec parser to a ParserT parser from megaparsec? |
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| 20:01:54 | <geekosaur> | Parsec e s is an alias for ParsecT e s Identity. I don't know what your ParserT is but it probably specifies one or both of e and s? |
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| 20:06:21 | <Boarders_> | sorry, I meant like: ParsecT e s Identity a -> ParsecT e s m a |
| 20:06:26 | <Boarders_> | i.e. hoist |
| 20:06:42 | <lyxia> | probably not because ParsecT is ContT-like |
| 20:06:44 | <Boarders_> | (well with pure) |
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| 20:07:20 | <lyxia> | but you should be able to generalize your definitions from Parsec e s a to forall m. ParsecT e s m a |
| 20:09:55 | <Boarders_> | ah very good ponit |
| 20:09:58 | <Boarders_> | point* |
| 20:11:23 | <geekosaur> | yeh, that was what I was trying to point out |
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| 20:22:25 | <madjestic> | Hey guys, is there a way to embed IO inside arrows? Here's a very contrived example of what I want to achieve (whether I really do want this is another question): https://www.paste.org/121683 |
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| 20:24:31 | <geekosaur> | have you looked at Kleisli? |
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| 20:26:08 | <madjestic> | geekosaur: Kleisli certainly popped up when I was googling it, is that what I need? |
| 20:26:29 | <geekosaur> | if you wrap a monad in Kleisli it becomes an arrow |
| 20:26:51 | <geekosaur> | that includes IO |
| 20:27:40 | <madjestic> | thanks, geekosaur , I will look into Kleisli |
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| 20:35:23 | <energizer> | anybody know of a language where you can fold over a type? |
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| 20:37:15 | <energizer> | foldl max Int == 9223372036854775807 |
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| 20:37:50 | <tomsmeding> | > maximum [minBound .. maxBound] :: Word8 |
| 20:37:52 | <lambdabot> | 255 |
| 20:37:57 | <tomsmeding> | Int would take a while |
| 20:38:25 | <energizer> | that's not quite the same is it |
| 20:39:45 | <tomsmeding> | > foldl1 max [minBound .. maxBound] |
| 20:39:47 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 20:39:48 | <tomsmeding> | > foldl1 max [minBound .. maxBound] :: Word8 |
| 20:39:50 | <lambdabot> | 255 |
| 20:39:52 | <tomsmeding> | better? |
| 20:40:15 | <tomsmeding> | [minBound .. maxBound] is precisely the enumeration of values in every type for which that list would be finite |
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| 20:42:52 | <tomsmeding> | I guess there would need to be another class that gives you all the values of a type even if that list would be infinite; 'enumFrom' doesn't cut it because there might be negative values |
| 20:44:14 | <energizer> | > foldl1 max Word8 |
| 20:44:16 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:44:16 | <lambdabot> | Data constructor not in scope: Word8 :: t0 a |
| 20:44:44 | <energizer> | is it possible to make that work? |
| 20:45:39 | <tomsmeding> | not in Haskell, but why would you want it to work? |
| 20:45:51 | <tomsmeding> | it's just syntax away from something that _could_ work |
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| 20:47:08 | <energizer> | types are like sets but for some reason i cant iterate them |
| 20:47:30 | <tomsmeding> | what would 'foldr (:) [] Double' do? |
| 20:47:51 | <tomsmeding> | or 'foldr (:) [] Rational' |
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| 20:48:12 | <tomsmeding> | or 'foldr (:) [] (Set Rational)' :p |
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| 20:48:35 | <energizer> | it would return a list of Rationals |
| 20:48:45 | <tomsmeding> | hmmm, or 'foldr (:) [] ([Double] -> [Double])' |
| 20:49:36 | <energizer> | what would foldr over any infinite stream do |
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| 20:49:46 | <tomsmeding> | produce an infinite stream |
| 20:49:50 | <tomsmeding> | the infinite-ness is not the issue |
| 20:50:09 | <tomsmeding> | the issues are 1. you have to choose an order, and 2. how do you enumerate a function type |
| 20:50:49 | <energizer> | i can think of at least one way to enumerate Word8 |
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| 20:51:15 | <tomsmeding> | me too, but I can think of a number of reasonable ways to enumerate Double, and even more ways to enumerate 'Set Double' |
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| 20:52:13 | <energizer> | i can fold over a set like {1,2,3} even if its unordered |
| 20:52:24 | <tomsmeding> | no you can't, you choose an order |
| 20:52:39 | <tomsmeding> | if you're using Data.Set.Set, that order is explicitly sorted order |
| 20:52:59 | <energizer> | ok, so Double could have such an order, too |
| 20:53:06 | <tomsmeding> | hm, I guess you can fold over an unordered set if the folding function is statically guaranteed to be commutative & associative |
| 20:53:46 | <tomsmeding> | I wonder if this does something relevant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETL |
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| 20:55:25 | <energizer> | hey that's a list comprehension |
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| 20:56:47 | <energizer> | anyway yeah max over doubles is associative and commutative so order is irrelevant |
| 20:57:23 | <tomsmeding> | yes, but for that to make sense you'd need a language that can statically reason about commutativity/associativity of functions, which Haskell can't |
| 20:57:57 | <tomsmeding> | (or accept that well-definedness of your program is up to the programmer, in which case a dynamically typed language would work as well :D) |
| 20:58:19 | <energizer> | what does well definedness mean? |
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| 20:59:03 | <tomsmeding> | what would the semantics of folding over any type with any, not necessarily commutative or associative, function be? |
| 20:59:17 | <tomsmeding> | I guess you could specify an order for all types inductively |
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| 20:59:40 | <tomsmeding> | energizer: afraid to ask, but do you have an application for this? :p |
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| 21:00:29 | <monochrom> | Someone or something will pick an order. If not you, then the computer. If not planned, then unplanned. |
| 21:01:10 | <energizer> | just kinda working through my understanding of what types are |
| 21:01:30 | <tomsmeding> | well, in haskell, definitely not always sets of values |
| 21:01:34 | <monochrom> | If not reproducible, then irreproducible. |
| 21:01:41 | <energizer> | i dont really get what static typing is about |
| 21:02:07 | <tomsmeding> | all types of kind Type (also spelled *) are sets of values, but there are also types that are not of kind Type |
| 21:02:29 | <tomsmeding> | but I'm not sure if you're far enough in your haskell journey for that to be a useful thing to think about :p |
| 21:03:39 | <monochrom> | People do disagree over the purpose of static typing. But I side with a sentence in the Software Foundation textbook: A middle ground of catching mistakes early and staying within decidability. |
| 21:04:03 | tomsmeding | agrees |
| 21:04:04 | <energizer> | presumably if * is Type then *->* is a function from one Type to another, this seems smple |
| 21:04:13 | <tomsmeding> | :k Maybe |
| 21:04:14 | <lambdabot> | * -> * |
| 21:04:32 | <tomsmeding> | ('k' for 'kind') |
| 21:04:39 | <energizer> | that sounds like a positive example for my hypothesis there |
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| 21:05:03 | <tomsmeding> | indeed |
| 21:05:41 | <madjestic> | energizer: there's more than one answer to it, but on a basic level static typic langs weed out an important class of bugs a compile stage, rather than letting bugs manifest at runtime, if that's the kind of answer you expect. |
| 21:06:06 | <energizer> | i dont really know what 'static' or 'compile time' means |
| 21:06:21 | <tomsmeding> | what programming language(s) do you already know? |
| 21:06:30 | <monochrom> | There is a new one I like but I haven't fleshed it out. Types express your program's structure/architecture/organization/whatever-you-call-it. |
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| 21:07:37 | <energizer> | i've written code in bash, lean, and a few languages in the space between those two |
| 21:07:40 | <monochrom> | For example modular programming and OOP can be boiled down to suitable type systems. |
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| 21:10:02 | <madjestic> | energizer: static types means that the types are defined and checked before your program is executed, and don't change when your software is already running (runtime), in the latter case there is a significant chance that type errors may occur, which can be bad. |
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| 21:11:21 | <energizer> | seems like more information would be available if i just started the program and checked its properties then |
| 21:11:44 | <tomsmeding> | yes, but then it's already in production |
| 21:11:48 | <tomsmeding> | (presumably) |
| 21:11:55 | <energizer> | no it's still here with me |
| 21:12:00 | <nosewings> | it's beter to think of types in ML-style languages as algebras rather than sets |
| 21:12:20 | <monochrom> | There is no end to philosophizing this if you want. Doesn't mean it's a productive discussion for the rest of us. |
| 21:12:48 | <monochrom> | What is the point of writing code?! |
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| 21:13:06 | <tomsmeding> | energizer: if you check something at runtime, then all you can ever check is the code paths that your program follows in the execution. The point of static/compile-time checks is to get some guarantees that will hold over _all_ executions |
| 21:13:16 | <madjestic> | monochrom: suffering |
| 21:13:22 | <monochrom> | hehe |
| 21:13:26 | <tomsmeding> | you won't be able to get all guarantees, since, as you rightly state, at runtime there will be more info |
| 21:13:42 | <energizer> | tomsmeding: that's not true, i can symbolically execute other paths |
| 21:13:47 | <tomsmeding> | but you can prove _some_, e.g. that you're never going to call (+) with two arguments of differing types |
| 21:14:02 | <nosewings> | you can also do much more with a more advanced type system |
| 21:14:21 | <nosewings> | (though the effort required to prove invariants ramps up very quickly) |
| 21:14:24 | <tomsmeding> | symbolic execution is not just running your program, it's doing an analysis that a compiler can also do |
| 21:14:31 | <tomsmeding> | but yeah, what monochrom says |
| 21:15:49 | <monochrom> | Na don't hide behind the façade of dynamic run time. Admit it, the most information is in the programmer's head. The only question is whether the programmer is honest in spelling it out or being smug in not talking. |
| 21:15:51 | <energizer> | i suppose one can have too much philosophy in a day |
| 21:16:40 | <monochrom> | And whether the programmer is humble in admitting that some machine checking is helpful or snobbish in insisting "I know what I'm doing". |
| 21:17:04 | <maerwald> | You don't need types to prove that your program behaves well, I guess. And types don't really prove that your program behaves well. I view them more as a utility for myself to reduce intellectual complexity. |
| 21:17:28 | <monochrom> | Alan Kay is smart enough to reasonably work with pure dynamic typing. That doesn't mean the rest of us should. |
| 21:17:37 | <nosewings> | you need types to prove that your program behaves "well" (for a certain definition of "well") in all circumstances |
| 21:17:46 | <monochrom> | The problem with opinion leaders is that their opinions works for them but not others. |
| 21:17:51 | <maerwald> | nosewings: I don't think so |
| 21:18:00 | <nosewings> | well, you don't need types---you can do with other kinds of formal verification |
| 21:18:04 | <maerwald> | yes |
| 21:18:07 | <nosewings> | but types are convenient |
| 21:19:08 | <maerwald> | types that are primarily about proofs also look rather different than what you come up with during a design phase of a program |
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| 21:19:25 | <maerwald> | types are read by humans |
| 21:19:27 | <tomsmeding> | types prove _some_ stuff, but far from everything |
| 21:19:44 | <monochrom> | And let's face it, if you don't add an int with a function from string to bool, then you already have types in your head. Don't deny it. |
| 21:20:17 | <tomsmeding> | (though possibly in a richer type system than Haskell's) |
| 21:20:18 | <energizer> | `if (length (xs < 1)) null else (some (first xs))` |
| 21:20:46 | <tomsmeding> | presumably `length xs < 1` instead of `length (xs < 1)`? |
| 21:20:58 | <energizer> | yeah |
| 21:20:59 | <maerwald> | I'd say we have structure (product types) and classes in our heads. I rarely think about Int32 vs Int64, I think "something numerical, I guess"... |
| 21:21:11 | <tomsmeding> | :t \xs -> if length xs < 1 then Nothing else Just (head xs) |
| 21:21:12 | <lambdabot> | [a] -> Maybe a |
| 21:21:42 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: programmers used to dynamic typing often have union types in their head, which Haskell doesn't have |
| 21:21:47 | <energizer> | how did it do that? |
| 21:21:55 | <tomsmeding> | :t length |
| 21:21:56 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t a -> Int |
| 21:21:59 | <tomsmeding> | meh |
| 21:22:01 | <tomsmeding> | :t head |
| 21:22:02 | <lambdabot> | [a] -> a |
| 21:22:22 | <tomsmeding> | energizer: it saw that I'm using `head` on `xs`, hence `xs` must be a list of stuff |
| 21:22:36 | <energizer> | :t last |
| 21:22:38 | <lambdabot> | [a] -> a |
| 21:22:48 | <tomsmeding> | > last [] |
| 21:22:50 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.last: empty list |
| 21:22:57 | <energizer> | :t \xs -> if length xs < 1 then Nothing else Just (last xs) |
| 21:22:58 | <lambdabot> | [a] -> Maybe a |
| 21:23:48 | <energizer> | does it know that won't fail at runtime? |
| 21:23:52 | <jackdk> | % :t fmap Data.List.NonEmpty.last . nonEmpty |
| 21:23:52 | <tomsmeding> | no |
| 21:23:52 | <yahb> | jackdk: ; <interactive>:1:32: error:; * Variable not in scope: nonEmpty :: a -> f (GHC.Base.NonEmpty b); * Perhaps you meant one of these: data constructor `Q.NonEmpty' (imported from Test.QuickCheck), data constructor `NonEmptyF' (imported from Data.Functor.Base) |
| 21:24:06 | <jackdk> | % :m + Data.List.NonEmpty |
| 21:24:06 | <yahb> | jackdk: |
| 21:24:09 | <tomsmeding> | haskell doesn't forbid partial functions, whereas Lean probably does |
| 21:24:15 | <jackdk> | % :t fmap Data.List.NonEmpty.last . nonEmpt |
| 21:24:15 | <yahb> | jackdk: ; <interactive>:1:32: error:; * Variable not in scope: nonEmpt :: a -> f (NonEmpty b); * Perhaps you meant one of these: `nonEmpty' (imported from Data.List.NonEmpty), data constructor `Q.NonEmpty' (imported from Test.QuickCheck) |
| 21:24:18 | <jackdk> | % :t fmap Data.List.NonEmpty.last . nonEmpty |
| 21:24:18 | <yahb> | jackdk: [b] -> Maybe b |
| 21:24:25 | <jackdk> | % :m - Data.List.NonEmpty |
| 21:24:25 | <yahb> | jackdk: |
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| 21:26:38 | <nosewings> | I have a situation where `f (g x)` typechecks but `let y = g x in f y` doesn't; does anyone know how this could happen? |
| 21:27:07 | <tomsmeding> | does `f` take a polymorphic type as argument? |
| 21:27:23 | <tomsmeding> | like, a RankNTypes type, with a forall in front |
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| 21:27:33 | <tomsmeding> | if so, then MonomorphismRestriction |
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| 21:28:51 | <nosewings> | no RankNTypes, turning on NoMonomorphismRestriction doesn't help anything |
| 21:29:20 | <tomsmeding> | hm, what's the types involved? |
| 21:29:22 | <geekosaur> | MonoLocalBinds controls that one |
| 21:29:39 | <geekosaur> | MonomorphismRestriction is for top level definitions |
| 21:29:44 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 21:29:50 | <nosewings> | Still no fix there |
| 21:30:07 | <nosewings> | This is using generic-data-surgery, which is doing some wizardry with Generic to "edit" types |
| 21:30:44 | <nosewings> | So the types involved are too large to type out here |
| 21:30:49 | tomsmeding | suspects the issue is type inference then, i.e. adding the proper type signature to `y` would make it work |
| 21:31:27 | <nosewings> | Probably would do, but that's unfortunately not a realistic option |
| 21:31:28 | <nosewings> | Ah wel |
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| 22:04:02 | <jle`> | nosewings: yeah, i'm guessing it's because f has a rank n type, its argument is a (forall x. ..) and needs to be polymorphic |
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| 22:04:52 | <jle`> | > let f :: (forall a. a -> a) -> Int; f q = q 3 in f id |
| 22:04:54 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 22:05:05 | <jle`> | > let f :: (forall a. a -> a) -> Int; f q = q 3; y = id in f y |
| 22:05:07 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 22:05:13 | <jle`> | o that should have been an error |
| 22:06:35 | <monochrom> | let-polymorphism is enough to result in y being as polymorphic as id. |
| 22:07:04 | <monochrom> | MonoLocalBinds is probably not in effect on lambdabot. |
| 22:07:32 | <jle`> | > let f :: (forall a. a -> a) -> Int; f q = q 3 in case id of y -> f y |
| 22:07:34 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:07:34 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘a’ with ‘a0’ |
| 22:07:34 | <lambdabot> | ‘a’ is a rigid type variable bound by |
| 22:07:55 | <monochrom> | Yeah you need case or lambda to monomorphize :) |
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| 22:09:30 | <monochrom> | Very subtly and annoyingly this breaks the intuition "(let v = e in b) = (\v -> b) e". (is true after type erasure.) |
| 22:09:47 | <nosewings> | jle`: don't think so, none of the functions look I'm using have higher-rank types |
| 22:10:00 | <monochrom> | (and after you get past the type checker, of course :) ) |
| 22:10:16 | <nosewings> | for some reason one of the type variables becomes ambiguous in the let-version |
| 22:10:16 | <monochrom> | (stupid type police :) ) |
| 22:11:21 | <monochrom> | This is why we should be grateful for the monomorphism restriction haha. |
| 22:11:53 | <monochrom> | GMR = gracious monomorphism restriction |
| 22:12:27 | <monochrom> | err, gracious? graceful? Damn English. |
| 22:12:39 | <geekosaur> | gracious, I think |
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| 22:21:37 | <Hecate> | If anyone is interested in giving an hand with Flora, the main stuff that is needed right now is a way to adapt the current package import logic to work on the tarball of cabal files provided by Hackage |
| 22:21:49 | <Hecate> | https://dev.flora.pm <- also, basic search works now |
| 22:21:51 | <Hecate> | https://dev.flora.pm/packages |
| 22:23:24 | <napping> | Is there a way to get standalone deriving to generate the full signature? I have a higher-kinded type where a "deriving Show" clause on the declaration isn't allowed because it would have a context with stuff like (Show (f Int)), but standalone deriving requires writing out the full context for the instance, explicitly listing all the tricky fields |
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| 22:28:43 | <napping> | All from generics-sop works for some things, but GHC leaves an unexpanded All in the resulting type |
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| 22:33:01 | <napping> | a partial workaround is to define a type synonym like "type MyTypeInst cls = (cls (f Int), cls (f Bool)) => cls (MyType f) |
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| 22:34:06 | <janus> | Hecate: when i search for 'test' on hackage, i get lots of stuff, but on flora i get nothing |
| 22:34:46 | <janus> | even if i search for 'QuickCheck' i get nothing |
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| 22:36:07 | <napping> | Needing to expand the synonym to see the => seems to force unfolding, but the same trick can't be used with a type family for mapping over a type-level list, because a type family can't return a Quantified Constraint |
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| 22:42:46 | <sm> | janus: they said yesterday search is not working yet |
| 22:43:14 | <janus> | well they just said 20 min ago that basic search works |
| 22:43:26 | <sm> | oh! I'm out of date :) |
| 22:43:40 | <sm> | nice to see changes |
| 22:44:33 | <sm> | yeah, not working yet |
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| 22:50:01 | <dons> | morning all |
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| 22:52:46 | <dons> | flora looks nice. is that using monaco.js for the web editor? |
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| 22:53:58 | <dons> | ... i have a dream of running a hie -> glean indexer on each hackage upload, to serve hover/find-refs/jump-to-def on all hackage source files |
| 22:54:29 | <dons> | need a bit of work on the hiedb indexing first |
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| 23:01:34 | hololeap_ | is now known as hololeap |
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| 23:02:01 | <Axman6> | Hecate: is flora supposed to link to module documentation? I'm not seeing anything? |
| 23:02:18 | <Axman6> | the Documentation links link to the same page... |
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| 23:06:44 | <Axman6> | I guess that's not done yet, looking forward to it though! |
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| 23:07:42 | <Axman6> | Hecate: I find it a bit odd that the search field disappears on some pages (it might seem redundant on the packages page but I'd argue that actually somewhere where people are most likely to think "this is too hard, I'll just search for it") |
| 23:09:14 | <geekosaur> | janus, re search, it only has 36 packages indexed |
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| 23:50:42 | <sm> | well I did install postgres just to try out a random FOSS project.. but failed at installing souffle. Would anyone have a copy of flora's generated cbits/categorise.cpp file ? |
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