Logs on 2022-04-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:59:34 | <abastro[m]> | I think when we use haskell, we are enjoying advantage of laziness without noticing esp. when we employ abstractions. Am I the only one with this opinion? |
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| 02:13:59 | <shapr> | abastro[m]: I would agree with that |
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| 03:07:21 | <shapr> | wow, part/join spam is much |
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| 03:18:28 | <gingeh> | Hi, I'm fairly new to Haskell. I am writing a very basic interpreter (https://paste.tomsmeding.com/eT561V0J) and want to know if there is a way lines 11 and 12 could be simplified. Perhaps using something like a state monad? |
| 03:22:35 | <dsal> | I don't think a State Monad is what you need there. The structure seems a little odd to me, though. |
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| 03:26:57 | <glguy> | gingeh: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/RwcJYkCH |
| 03:27:04 | <glguy> | dsal: maybe you'll find it interesting, too? |
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| 03:30:04 | <dsal> | Yeah, that's neat. I still don't think I'd use state for that, though. |
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| 03:30:46 | <glguy> | it's the same idea as using parser combinators |
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| 03:32:03 | <monochrom> | If you use Haskell's built-in recursion, you no longer use your own stack state. |
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| 03:33:35 | <monochrom> | But you can also choose to limit yourself to tail recursion so you're as close to a low level loop as Haskell allows, and then you maintain your own stack and you can make it your state of the State monad. |
| 03:34:12 | <monochrom> | Although, the only state operations are push and pop, so it is not the full power of State either. |
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| 03:34:51 | <monochrom> | In this case any or all of Graham Hutton's "calculating a compiler" papers apply. |
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| 03:36:01 | <gingeh> | glguy: that looks promising! I'll play around with that to see if it makes things easier. |
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| 03:37:31 | <gingeh> | monochrom: "If you use Haskell's built-in recursion, you no longer use your own stack state." What do you mean by that? |
| 03:38:43 | <monochrom> | Err nevermind this is a Polish-notation calculator. So yeah what glguy says about parsing, this is simply parsing Polish notation. And s/stack/input stream/ . |
| 03:39:07 | ChanServ | sets mode +o litharge |
| 03:39:07 | litharge | sets mode -bo *!*@208.190.197.222 litharge |
| 03:39:36 | <monochrom> | It is true that "StateT [Token] Maybe" is poor man's parser monad. |
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| 03:50:44 | <dsal> | gingeh: Where was that list format specified? I think that's the part that's thrown me off. I'd expected to have parsed something into a tree structure that's more natural to evaluate instead of doing the same parsing phase again in the evaluator. |
| 03:51:03 | <dsal> | I realized here I'd never actually seen forward polish notation. |
| 03:51:25 | <gingeh> | This is just something I made while bored in class |
| 03:51:35 | <gingeh> | I didn't put much design thought into it |
| 03:54:19 | <dsal> | Ah, OK. It's a sensible exercise. In practice, I end up with the expression being more tree-like. e.g., data Expr a = Constant a | Add Expr Expr | Mul Expr Expr etc... |
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| 04:16:37 | <abastro[m]> | Can you backtrack with `StateT [Token] Maybe`? |
| 04:17:25 | <glguy> | You'd switch from Maybe to [] |
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| 04:18:50 | <abastro[m]> | Oh, so that is poor man's parser monad |
| 04:19:08 | <glguy> | also |
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| 04:40:46 | <Zemyla> | Do you tokenize before parsing? |
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| 04:45:25 | <dsal> | Most of the time, I just do everything in one pass with megaparsec. |
| 04:47:38 | <dsal> | My current work project is using attoparsec, but similar concept, I built up the final data structure as I'm going. |
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| 04:49:55 | <Zemyla> | So would tokenizing make things faster or simpler? |
| 04:55:08 | <dsal> | I don't have performance or simplicity problems with any of my parsers, so I've not put thought into it. |
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| 05:08:55 | <abastro[m]> | Why not do tokenizers tho? |
| 05:10:30 | <dsal> | I don't understand what kind of improvements people are suggesting. Can you be concrete about what needs to be better in a particular parser? |
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| 05:13:50 | <dolio> | Parser combinators don't really require factoring out a separate tokenization stage as much as traditional parser designs. |
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| 05:14:26 | <dolio> | Getting a token can just be a parser. |
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| 06:31:52 | <abastro[m]> | I mean, getting a token would be parser |
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| 06:32:37 | <abastro[m]> | So I was suggesting more like, gathering PC doing lexing together - so that you could distinguish which is interacting with char more easily |
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| 11:01:41 | <abastro> | What is the idiomatic way to represent a function `f :: u -> v` where f (a <> b) = f a <> f b? |
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| 11:02:05 | <abastro> | When `u`, `v` are at least semigroup, ofc |
| 11:02:34 | <abastro> | (Also `f mempty = mempty` in case of Monoid) |
| 11:03:11 | <abastro> | I want a type which denotes that the restriction holds. |
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| 11:49:11 | <unit73e> | hello. looks like the best way to handle packages is just using ghcup. at least in arch. |
| 11:49:19 | <unit73e> | avoids all the issues |
| 11:49:36 | <geekosaur> | that's generally the recommendation, yes |
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| 11:57:06 | <Franciman> | unit73e: i like that way too ^^ |
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| 12:04:09 | <unit73e> | hls now works flawlessly. unfortunately arch packages never really worked very well with haskell. |
| 12:04:34 | <unit73e> | not even the static versions |
| 12:05:46 | <unit73e> | still on the nobody asked xp3 battle. making args now. |
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| 12:18:43 | <abastro> | Anyone knows answer to my question? |
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| 12:27:20 | <abastro> | (Is it fine to say it again?) |
| 12:27:38 | <tdammers> | it generally won't increase your odds of getting an answer |
| 12:27:50 | <tdammers> | maybe if it's been hours |
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| 12:28:02 | <geekosaur> | you might want to ask it on reddit or the discourse too |
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| 12:46:23 | <abastro> | I see, that could be betteer |
| 12:46:46 | <abastro> | Perhaps you mean you do not have an easy answer for this? |
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| 12:51:09 | <geekosaur> | I just mean if you're not getting answers here you might need a wider audience |
| 12:51:34 | <geekosaur> | speaking more as a mod than as a Haskell person (sadly, I don't know nearly as much Haskell as I sometimes seem to) |
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| 12:55:51 | <abastro> | Oh, I see. I thought you were master haskeller (and perhaps you really are & suffering imposter syndrome) |
| 12:58:54 | <geekosaur> | no, there's quite a lot I don't know yet |
| 12:59:25 | <geekosaur> | I think a lot of my rep comes from being the main xmonad maintainer… but 90% of that is twiddling the right X server bits, which I *do* know well |
| 13:01:05 | <geekosaur> | but I confused myself (as usual) and possiblky confused someone else last night trying to explain "forall" last night: I understand it in practice but can't describe it properly for the life of me |
| 13:03:15 | <liz> | abastro: i'm not sure if there's a type that represents that restriction, but that sort of function is a homomorphism of semigroups |
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| 13:13:08 | <abastro> | Yep, I want to represent homomorphism of semigroups |
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| 13:13:18 | <abastro> | Feels bad just using function |
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| 13:35:16 | <kuribas> | albet70: hi |
| 13:35:18 | <kuribas> | albet70: do you get RankN types now? |
| 13:37:49 | <abastro> | I guess my question is actually more suited for Haskell Discourse. Thank you! |
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| 15:57:57 | <boxscape_> | is there a way to tell cabal which ghc binary it should use? |
| 15:58:07 | <maerwald> | cabal build -w ghc-8.10.7 |
| 15:58:17 | <boxscape_> | ah, thanks |
| 15:58:56 | <maerwald> | or: ghcup run --ghc 8.10.7 cabal -- build |
| 15:59:16 | <boxscape_> | okay |
| 15:59:41 | <maerwald> | more useful for vscode and such |
| 15:59:53 | <boxscape_> | right, I see |
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| 16:05:29 | <monochrom> | Every program evolves towards including an email client and a run command. >:) |
| 16:05:52 | <abastro> | Can include ghc-options in `cabal.project` as well |
| 16:06:14 | <abastro> | Oh, I meant `with-compiler: ghc-8.10.7 |
| 16:06:27 | <boxscape_> | oh, yeah, using cabal.project is a good idea |
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| 16:12:11 | <maerwald> | monochrom: ghcup run --ghc 8.10.7 -- cabal exec stack -- --system-ghc runghc -- --version |
| 16:12:32 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 16:12:46 | <maerwald> | that actually works (in a project dir) |
| 16:12:49 | <monochrom> | Truly the next level of software envelopment. |
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| 16:13:15 | <maerwald> | funnilly, specifing stack first doesn't work because it messes with GHC_PACKAGE_PATH |
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| 16:13:38 | <geekosaur> | that's what I was just wondering, cabal exec should as well |
| 16:13:49 | <geekosaur> | although you may need to be inside a project for that |
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| 16:14:40 | <maerwald> | is just missing a `docker run` |
| 16:15:28 | <monochrom> | If specify stack first, perhaps insert a middle shell script that umesses GHC_PACKAGE_PATH |
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| 16:21:38 | <maerwald> | wrt email, I think https://github.com/soywod/himalaya might actually integrate well with ghcup xD |
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| 16:27:59 | <kuribas> | :t foldl |
| 16:28:00 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b |
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| 16:28:21 | <kuribas> | > foldl f a [b, c] |
| 16:28:23 | <lambdabot> | f (f a b) c |
| 16:28:50 | <kuribas> | @src foldl |
| 16:28:50 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z [] = z |
| 16:28:50 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs |
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| 16:37:29 | <kuribas> | @src foldl' |
| 16:37:29 | <lambdabot> | foldl' f a [] = a |
| 16:37:29 | <lambdabot> | foldl' f a (x:xs) = let a' = f a x in a' `seq` foldl' f a' xs |
| 16:38:37 | <boxscape_> | @src foldl |
| 16:38:37 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z [] = z |
| 16:38:37 | <lambdabot> | foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs |
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| 19:09:02 | <gamara> | Why is this invalid syntax? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/AeEbRie9 How do i write this with where statements? |
| 19:11:03 | <hpc> | i would expect that to be an error for using (/) on Ints |
| 19:11:13 | <hpc> | is this just going in a file and you're doing like "ghci foo.hs"? |
| 19:13:16 | <gamara> | I am using a file |
| 19:13:37 | <gamara> | Not much interest in using the interpreter other than for info |
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| 19:14:02 | <hpc> | hmm, not sure why it would be failing then |
| 19:14:30 | <hpc> | i suspected something like pasting it into ghci, where it misinterprets multiline inputs |
| 19:14:33 | <gamara> | I think you are right getting the error No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from a use of ‘/’ |
| 19:14:46 | <gamara> | changing type to double fixes it |
| 19:15:07 | <gamara> | I need to learn to read |
| 19:15:07 | <hpc> | oh, cool |
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| 19:16:23 | <gamara> | If I want to use int I would do quot z x y |
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| 19:18:12 | <gamara> | thanks for the help |
| 19:18:53 | <geekosaur> | that has an indentation error |
| 19:19:09 | <geekosaur> | the let-in needs everything indented properly |
| 19:19:34 | <gamara> | it was a copy paste from a textbook |
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| 20:00:07 | <frostbyte_> | (completey new to haskell) I'm surprised to find that `runhaskell helloworld.hs > /dev/full` is correctly reporting an error: "helloworld.hs: <stdout>: hPutChar: resource exhausted (No space left on device)", but the compiled version of helloworld is not. Does anyone know why? |
| 20:00:53 | <frostbyte_> | ghc --version: "The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 9.2.1" |
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| 20:05:04 | <frostbyte_> | helloworld.hs: 'main = putStrLn "Hello, world!"' |
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| 20:10:33 | <avpx> | frostbyte_: What platform are you on? I wasn't able to repro on Windows/MinGW and Mac doesn't have /dev/full |
| 20:10:45 | <frostbyte_> | Debian Linux |
| 20:11:28 | <avpx> | It seems surprising to me too |
| 20:11:47 | <hpc> | frostbyte_: i remember reading about that a while ago, a bunch of languages have this issue |
| 20:12:22 | <hpc> | they just ignore the return status of the syscall |
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| 20:12:45 | <frostbyte_> | Indeed. It was seeing that article that led me to try. I wanted it to not be true, as one of the things appealing to me about haskell is correctness. |
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| 20:13:25 | <frostbyte_> | I'm particularly surprised that there's a difference between the two execution methods. |
| 20:13:41 | <frostbyte_> | Rather than both go unreported. |
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| 20:13:58 | <hpc> | there's probably some generic syscall wrapper in the interpreter maybe? |
| 20:14:03 | hpc | isn't a ghc dev |
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| 20:14:52 | <frostbyte_> | Does `runhaskell` use ghci? |
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| 20:15:08 | <Rembane> | It uses the interpreter rather than the compiler. |
| 20:15:09 | <hpc> | no, but they both use the same underlying bytecode stuff |
| 20:15:17 | <frostbyte_> | Right. |
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| 20:26:25 | <geekosaur> | write(1, "Hello, world!\n", 14) = -1 ENOSPC (No space left on device) |
| 20:26:35 | <frostbyte_> | Why does the filter in the following code "stop the laziness"? That is, it will no longer read and write a line at-a-time. |
| 20:26:38 | <frostbyte_> | main = mapM_ putStrLn =<< filterM doesDirectoryExist =<< lines <$> getContents |
| 20:26:53 | <frostbyte_> | geekosaur: Yes, I saw that too. |
| 20:28:26 | <frostbyte_> | So, clearly, the return value / error is being ignored. I'm surprised that it is; doubly surprised that it's not the case when using `runhaskell`. |
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| 20:30:28 | <geekosaur> | actually I'm not |
| 20:30:36 | <frostbyte_> | Why so? |
| 20:30:48 | <geekosaur> | runhaskell will be in line at a time mode and the output is flushed at the newline, which causes the error to be caught |
| 20:31:51 | <geekosaur> | the compiled one will be in block mode because output is not a terminal. this means the Handle isn't flushed and closed until the RTS is doing cleanup post-execution; it therefore has nowhere to report the error to |
| 20:32:26 | <geekosaur> | thsi will as noted be a common probem. you need to switch buffering mode to enable the program to catch it |
| 20:32:37 | <Rembane> | So... what happens if the output mode is changed? Will both interpreted and compiled code behave the same? |
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| 20:34:38 | <frostbyte_> | That's not really an answer because the error isn't even visible in the program's exit status. |
| 20:35:26 | <geekosaur> | it should. sadly stdbuf doesn't work on Haskell programs so you have to change the source |
| 20:35:29 | <frostbyte_> | Which I think suggests more that the error is completely ignored and unhandled rather than simply lacking somewhere to report it. |
| 20:36:39 | <geekosaur> | skkukuk Z$ ./hello > /dev/full |
| 20:36:39 | <geekosaur> | hello: <stdout>: commitBuffer: resource exhausted (No space left on device) |
| 20:36:39 | <geekosaur> | zsh: exit 1 ./hello > /dev/full |
| 20:37:02 | <frostbyte_> | What have you done differently there? |
| 20:37:13 | <geekosaur> | import System.IO |
| 20:37:13 | <geekosaur> | main = hSetBuffering stdout LineBuffering >> putStrLn "Hello, world!" |
| 20:37:45 | <geekosaur> | the problem is, hFlush throws an exception. but during RTS cleanup exception handling doesn't work |
| 20:37:57 | <geekosaur> | it's already been torn down |
| 20:38:35 | <geekosaur> | if I force the exception to be thrown during normal execution then it is thrown as usual and the RTS catches it because main doens't |
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| 20:39:55 | <geekosaur> | I am not sure this is fixable: if exceptions were sent to an already closed Handle then that would just throw another exception inside the exception handler |
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| 20:41:18 | <frostbyte_> | Perhaps, but surely the error could still surface without outputting error messages, such as the exit status. |
| 20:41:24 | <geekosaur> | which is the general problem with trying to do exception/error handling during RTS cleanup in any language |
| 20:42:51 | <frostbyte_> | Based on what you've said, are we able to manually flush and create the error without fiddling the linebuffering? |
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| 20:43:26 | <geekosaur> | mm, you'd have to take that one up with the ghc folks since the RTS is their baby. https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/new |
| 20:44:21 | <geekosaur> | skkukuk Z$ ./hello > /dev/full |
| 20:44:22 | <geekosaur> | hello: <stdout>: hFlush: resource exhausted (No space left on device) |
| 20:44:22 | <geekosaur> | zsh: exit 1 ./hello > /dev/full |
| 20:44:22 | <geekosaur> | skkukuk Z$ cat hello.hs |
| 20:44:22 | <geekosaur> | import System.IO |
| 20:44:22 | <geekosaur> | main = putStrLn "Hello, world!" >> hFlush stdout |
| 20:44:43 | <frostbyte_> | Right. Good. |
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| 20:46:32 | <geekosaur> | come tothink of it, exitFailed is also implemented as an exception, so this may be difficult to fix |
| 20:47:48 | <frostbyte_> | Of course I know nothing of the internals but I don't see why, really. Shouldn't flushing and checking it's success be part of cleaning up anyway? |
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| 20:48:36 | <frostbyte_> | It's just quite sad for me because it undermines what was haskell's main appeal for me. |
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| 20:49:21 | <geekosaur> | I think if you ever let a filehandle be autoclosed, you're begging to lose any associated errors. be explicit if you care |
| 20:49:26 | <geekosaur> | in any language |
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| 20:50:54 | <frostbyte_> | Although that's true enough, I don't think that should be the case for high level languages, particularly with stdout being something one rarely explicitly opens / closes. |
| 20:51:17 | <geekosaur> | this does raise the question of what happens if a Handle with a pending error condition is gc-ed, but it'd take a more involved program to check that |
| 20:51:41 | <frostbyte_> | Interesting. |
| 20:52:01 | <geekosaur> | because again I'm not sure it's safe to throw an exception in the middle of a gc |
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| 23:25:14 | <geekosaur> | frostbyte_, https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/21336 |
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| 23:54:50 | <geekosaur> | btw, about your earlier question about `filterM`: iirc IO's >>= is strict so `filterM` is also strict. I may be misremembering the exact place where strictness sneaks in, though |
| 23:55:03 | <geekosaur> | @src filterM |
| 23:55:03 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. Are you on drugs? |
| 23:55:09 | <geekosaur> | bleargh |
| 23:56:19 | <geekosaur> | filterM p = foldr (\ x -> liftA2 (\ flg -> if flg then (x:) else id) (p x)) (pure []) |
| 23:56:28 | <geekosaur> | it's Applicative not Monad these days, whoops |
| 23:57:01 | <geekosaur> | anyway yes, I am pretty sure that's strict |
| 23:57:07 | <geekosaur> | at least in IO |
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