Logs on 2022-04-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:43:00 | <monochrom> | liftA2 for a lot of applicatives kill short circuiting. |
| 00:43:23 | <monochrom> | Example: Maybe: |
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| 00:43:37 | <monochrom> | > liftA2 (&&) Nothing undefined |
| 00:43:38 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 00:43:46 | <monochrom> | Err oops wrong inputs. |
| 00:43:54 | <monochrom> | > liftA2 (&&) (Just False) undefined |
| 00:43:55 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
| 00:44:14 | <monochrom> | does not give && a chance to short-circuit. |
| 00:46:23 | <hpc> | > liftA2 (&&) (Just False) (Just undefined) |
| 00:46:24 | <lambdabot> | Just False |
| 00:46:36 | <monochrom> | Likewise, for IO, liftA2 op foo bar executes both foo and bar unconditionally. op does not have a say on this. |
| 00:46:38 | <hpc> | it's strict in the effect, and inherits the function's strictness on the type variable |
| 00:46:45 | <monochrom> | Yeah. |
| 00:47:16 | <monochrom> | But perhaps you can mitigate by liftA2 op (unsafeInterleaveIO foo) (unsafeInterleaveIO bar) >:) |
| 00:47:18 | <hpc> | (characterizing laziness can be a wild ride sometimes) |
| 00:48:54 | <abastro[m]> | > (&&) <$> pure False <*> pure undefined :: IO () |
| 00:48:55 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 00:48:55 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘Bool’ with ‘()’ |
| 00:48:56 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: IO () |
| 00:49:27 | <abastro[m]> | > (&&) <$> pure @IO False <*> pure undefined |
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| 00:49:29 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 00:49:29 | <lambdabot> | Pattern syntax in expression context: pure@IO |
| 00:49:29 | <lambdabot> | Did you mean to enable TypeApplications? |
| 00:49:42 | <monochrom> | liftA2 op foo bar is required to be equiv to foo >>= \f -> bar >>= \b -> pure (op f b). |
| 00:49:56 | <abastro[m]> | Oh duh I thought TypeApplications was enabled |
| 00:49:57 | <monochrom> | Right there you see how op doesn't matter until it's too late. |
| 00:50:30 | <abastro[m]> | > (&&) <$> pure False <*> pure undefined :: IO Bool |
| 00:50:31 | <lambdabot> | <IO Bool> |
| 00:50:43 | <monochrom> | Unless the monad is like State.Lazy or Tardis. |
| 00:50:50 | <abastro[m]> | So it is lazy :> |
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| 10:39:20 | <Andrew> | test |
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| 11:40:15 | <abastro> | I wish there were `Either e Void -> e` or `Either a a -> a` |
| 11:40:28 | <abastro> | That or `ExceptT e m Void -> m e` |
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| 11:54:22 | <liz> | writing an `Either a a -> a` wouldn't be too hard |
| 11:54:43 | <liz> | `fromHomoEither (Left x) = x`; `fromHomoEither (Right y) = y` |
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| 12:00:11 | <jackdk> | abastro: `either id absurd`, `either id id` respectively; see also "Fairbairn Threshold" |
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| 12:21:36 | <abastro> | Oh, so it did not make it because of fairbairn threshold? |
| 12:22:08 | <abastro> | Hmm, so what would be the best way to write: |
| 12:22:25 | <abastro> | `ExceptT e m Void -> m e` |
| 12:22:47 | <abastro> | `fmap (either id absurd) . runExceptT` is quite long to me |
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| 12:33:17 | <abastro> | I need to do study but my brain don't want to and resorts to: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/SOth1C3N |
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| 13:02:03 | <kuribas> | I often hear "the types are so complicated in haskell". However I find that more complicated types give rise to easier function definitions. |
| 13:02:15 | <kuribas> | Isn't it then just not about pushing complexity into types? |
| 13:02:28 | <kuribas> | As in, it's not more complicated, it's just complicated in a different place. |
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| 13:03:08 | <kuribas> | And if done well, it means that this complication is just in one place, rather than popping up all over the codebase. |
| 13:03:09 | <hpc> | in my experience, people who say that have just never used algebraic types before |
| 13:03:26 | <kuribas> | hpc: well, and that :) |
| 13:03:32 | <hpc> | or they look at them in haskell and think "this is foreign and unknowable" |
| 13:03:47 | <hpc> | but as soon as you show it to them in say, typescript, it's immediately obvious to them :/ |
| 13:04:20 | <hpc> | but yeah, a good type is like a good api |
| 13:04:26 | <hpc> | all your code invisibly becomes much simpler |
| 13:04:37 | <hpc> | well, a good type /is/ a good api |
| 13:05:26 | <kuribas> | some things are easier when you don't try to statically proof them correct. |
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| 13:06:26 | <hpc> | in a turing-complete language you're dealing with the halting problem anyway |
| 13:06:31 | <hpc> | so it's about how close you can usefully get |
| 13:06:33 | <kuribas> | Even though people erronuously will say, "they are complicated in haskell". |
| 13:06:55 | <hpc> | and with things like purity and laziness, it's easy to get a lot closer |
| 13:07:08 | <kuribas> | hpc: clojure has purity and laziness. |
| 13:07:29 | <kuribas> | hpc: still, I find it nearly impossible to reason about code, without being able to run it in a repl with real examples. |
| 13:07:35 | <kuribas> | (in clojure) |
| 13:09:06 | <hpc> | that's probably all the other lisp stuff, like macros and dynamic types |
| 13:10:01 | <kuribas> | For me it's mostly about using hashmaps for everything. |
| 13:10:18 | <kuribas> | It's the same as Objects in python/javascript. |
| 13:10:44 | <kuribas> | it's just easier in the sense that you don't see when you break anything. |
| 13:10:52 | <kuribas> | Where a typesystem makes it immediately obvious. |
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| 13:14:30 | <abastro> | There is also this thing that many ppl don't understand abstraction |
| 13:14:36 | <abastro> | They usually think in concrete cases |
| 13:14:59 | <abastro> | So I found ppl against property-based testing for this reason. |
| 13:15:21 | <kuribas> | right, and in clojure/lisp, you just code against concrete cases. |
| 13:16:05 | <kuribas> | but to me, it's the opposite of "reasoning about code", hence "functional programming". |
| 13:16:39 | <kuribas> | clojure isn't really function programming IMO, not more than doing java or javascript with pure objects. |
| 13:17:14 | <kuribas> | The spirit of "functional programming", is to be able to understand code by just looking at it. |
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| 13:18:54 | <nomagno> | The spirit of functional programming is really just recursion. The 'algorithms write themselves' part is sprinkled on top |
| 13:19:36 | <kuribas> | not recursion, induction. |
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| 13:21:45 | <liz> | i find it hard to judge how "difficult" haskell is to the average programmer because i've approached it from a mathematical background |
| 13:22:02 | <kuribas> | liz: did that make it easier, or harder? |
| 13:22:15 | <liz> | abstraction is my bread and butter, so i believe it made it easier |
| 13:23:13 | <liz> | i specialised in algebra so things like Semigroup and Monoid were pre-existing knowledge, rather than concepts to learn in order to learn haskell |
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| 13:23:51 | <liz> | and i think that in general the ability to think in abstract terms made learning haskell easier |
| 13:23:58 | <liz> | that said though, i'm still very much a haskell novice! |
| 13:24:08 | <hpc> | i went the immersion route - a solid month between semesters to properly change how i thought about programming |
| 13:24:32 | <kuribas> | But I cannot imagine a good programmer would find Semigroup or Monoid difficult. |
| 13:24:42 | <kuribas> | They are pretty much the easiest abstractions out there. |
| 13:24:59 | <liz> | that's true, they're conceptually simple structures |
| 13:25:04 | <hpc> | they teach the algebraic properties in elementary school even |
| 13:25:14 | <hpc> | 10 year olds can learn monoid |
| 13:25:16 | <kuribas> | Frankly, only Monad and Applicative are somewhat complicated, from all haskells base abstractions. |
| 13:25:21 | <kuribas> | hpc: yeah |
| 13:26:19 | <kuribas> | liz: I find idris to be more math oriented. |
| 13:27:20 | <kuribas> | IMO OOP is harder than most of haskells abstractions. |
| 13:28:12 | <liz> | i think a key difference between OOP and haskell's abstractions comes from the different ways of thinking within the paradigms |
| 13:28:22 | <liz> | how to "align" one's brain to solving a problem, if that makes sense |
| 13:29:26 | <liqidmetalman> | any hackers in here... |
| 13:29:30 | <liqidmetalman> | .... |
| 13:29:38 | <liqidmetalman> | got some questions... |
| 13:30:25 | <kuribas> | most of haskell "abstractions" are very concrete. OOP design patterns are mostly fuzzy and leave a lot of room for interpretation. |
| 13:31:04 | <hpc> | liqidmetalman: in the classical "i hacked out a microkernel over the weekend" or the modern "i hacked google" meaning? :P |
| 13:31:21 | <hpc> | also, don't ask to ask, just ask |
| 13:32:25 | <kuribas> | or I did an amazing type system hack. |
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| 13:32:49 | <hpc> | ask in the channel, don't pm people |
| 13:33:06 | <hpc> | we prefer open discussion |
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| 13:33:22 | <abastro> | Ppl love fuzzy and room for interpretation things when it looks more cozzy I guess |
| 13:33:38 | <abastro> | Like, using Pets, Dogs, and Cat.s in the example |
| 13:33:38 | <kuribas> | hpc: unless you don't want the teaching assistant to know? |
| 13:33:49 | <liqidmetalman> | i was trying to install venom with metasploit via linux but some of the gems wernt downloading... |
| 13:33:55 | <hpc> | ah, you're in the wrong channel |
| 13:34:04 | <hpc> | see the topic for what we're about |
| 13:34:07 | <liqidmetalman> | tried "install bundle" still doesnt install... |
| 13:34:07 | <abastro> | Very wrong channel |
| 13:34:39 | <liqidmetalman> | so i cant get help?.. |
| 13:34:41 | <liqidmetalman> | .. |
| 13:34:42 | <hpc> | not here |
| 13:34:49 | <liqidmetalman> | recommendations... |
| 13:34:49 | <liqidmetalman> | .. |
| 13:34:52 | <hpc> | no clue |
| 13:34:59 | <liqidmetalman> | #hack has like 5 people in it |
| 13:35:00 | <liqidmetalman> | .. |
| 13:35:19 | <liqidmetalman> | been like goin 2 weeks |
| 13:35:29 | <liqidmetalman> | still cant get the damn thing to work..lol |
| 13:35:31 | <liqidmetalman> | ... |
| 13:35:37 | <geekosaur> | the notion that IRC is inhabited mostly by so-called "hackers" is some 15 years out of date, as I understand it |
| 13:35:47 | <liz> | a channel for your specific distro may help, or a ruby channel if you're having issues with gems |
| 13:37:15 | <[exa]> | liqidmetalman: there's no channel for metasploit or venom? |
| 13:37:25 | <liqidmetalman> | no |
| 13:37:35 | <liqidmetalman> | "venom" is a trojan program |
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| 13:37:41 | <liqidmetalman> | like a trojan horse... |
| 13:37:46 | <liqidmetalman> | drops a payload |
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| 13:38:03 | <[exa]> | it is a compiler |
| 13:38:04 | <liqidmetalman> | i can set up the payload ...but can get the main app "venom" to work.. |
| 13:38:10 | <liqidmetalman> | you know with the lisener... |
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| 13:38:30 | <[exa]> | anyway it's highly offtopic here and you'll probably get 0 help |
| 13:38:33 | <[exa]> | try #metasploit |
| 13:39:50 | <[exa]> | btw it's useful to prepare a pastebin with what doesn't work, like error messages and so |
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| 13:54:43 | <liqidmetalman> | k |
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| 14:31:46 | <abastro[m]> | I wonder how ppl who lack matematical imaginative skills are doing programming work tbh |
| 14:32:14 | <abastro[m]> | Like, doesn't it mean SW boom is going too much |
| 14:34:54 | <[exa]> | not sure if actual math-specific imagination skills help much with programming |
| 14:35:52 | <[exa]> | toddler-like "moving stuff very carefully around to the other heap" and "virtual rubber duck" is on top of my list tbh :D |
| 14:39:45 | <liqidmetalman> | metasploit is the client... |
| 14:40:07 | <liqidmetalman> | im learning but.. still cant get it to install because of some dependancy issues... |
| 14:40:11 | <liqidmetalman> | any thoughs... |
| 14:40:13 | <liqidmetalman> | .. |
| 14:40:21 | <liqidmetalman> | *thoughts.. |
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| 14:41:12 | <[exa]> | liqidmetalman: as posted above, find actual community of people who use metasploit and show them whatever error message you have; probability of someone knowing stuff about whatever random metasploit extension is negligible |
| 14:41:31 | <[exa]> | *someone here |
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| 14:43:36 | <[exa]> | also it looks like they're a bit more active on slack than on the IRC |
| 14:43:41 | <abastro[m]> | [exa]: Well does that help haskell programming |
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| 14:44:11 | <[exa]> | abastro[m]: yeah, folding my foldy structures :D |
| 14:44:29 | <[exa]> | putting stuff in boxes |
| 14:44:53 | <[exa]> | checking if stuff fits in a weirdly shaped box |
| 14:45:34 | <liz> | sounds like those skills would be useful in a packing facility too :P |
| 14:46:00 | <[exa]> | oh yes, all these packages |
| 14:46:12 | <[exa]> | :D |
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| 14:53:04 | <abastro[m]> | ~~Packaging, sounds like geometric skills to me~~ |
| 14:53:21 | <abastro[m]> | Hmm don't you apply equational reasoning |
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| 14:56:30 | <AdityaAlok[m]> | Hello! everyone. (I'm new to haskell as well as functional programming) I wanted to ask how `currying` is implemented for position dependent arguments. For eg. How does this work? How haskell knowns which argument is for which side..?... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/d174dd238ef62939d268cd5673890b37aba0051f) |
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| 14:58:52 | <abastro[m]> | Hm wdym by position dependent argument exactly in this example? |
| 14:59:02 | <[exa]> | AdityaAlok[m]: if you mean the operator "section" shortcuts, the symmetric variants are (< 8) and (8 <) |
| 14:59:07 | <[exa]> | ie you can choose |
| 14:59:34 | <[exa]> | finally, your function is `id` :] |
| 14:59:37 | × | Pickchea quits (~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 14:59:50 | <[exa]> | > id (<10) 5 |
| 14:59:52 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 14:59:58 | <[exa]> | > (<10) 5 |
| 15:00:00 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 15:00:03 | <[exa]> | > (<10) 15 |
| 15:00:06 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 15:00:15 | <[exa]> | > (10<) 15 |
| 15:00:17 | <abastro[m]> | > ($) (<10) 5 |
| 15:00:17 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 15:00:19 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 15:00:25 | <abastro[m]> | Closer analogue |
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| 15:02:26 | ← | liqidmetalman parts (~admin@c-98-234-46-210.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) () |
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| 15:19:59 | <dminuoso> | AdityaAlok[m]: It's quite simple: The semantics are baked into the haskell report https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch3.html#x8-300003.5 |
| 15:20:06 | <dminuoso> | Translation: The following identities hold: |
| 15:20:12 | <dminuoso> | (op e) = \ x -> x op e |
| 15:20:19 | <dminuoso> | (e op) = \ x -> e op x |
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| 16:27:22 | <shapr> | I suddenly wish for hoogle.haskell.org to return number of total uses for a thing, and number of uses in the past year. |
| 16:27:47 | <shapr> | I searched for URL and many things are returned, but I don't know if there's a *popular* URL type |
| 16:29:12 | <liz> | hackage states the number of downloads a package has, if that helps |
| 16:29:39 | <shapr> | good point, but I think I want "packages uploaded in the last year that use this thing" |
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| 16:33:43 | <shapr> | liz: I guess number of downloads in the past year would work too |
| 16:35:17 | <abastro[m]> | Oh, Number of uses for a specific functions? |
| 16:35:18 | <abastro[m]> | That would be wonderful |
| 16:36:24 | <liz> | there would be a lot of interesting metrics to have on hoogle/hackage |
| 16:36:35 | <liz> | occurrences of functions in packages would be neat |
| 16:37:00 | <shapr> | aha, rust's lib.rs has this feature: https://lib.rs/crates/serde |
| 16:37:12 | <shapr> | let's copy that like ghcup copied rustup! |
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| 16:41:07 | <abastro[m]> | TIL ghcup copied rustup |
| 16:41:08 | <abastro[m]> | I thought they were independently developed and somehow got the same name |
| 16:41:58 | <shapr> | oh hey, hoogle DOES have this feature! |
| 16:42:44 | <shapr> | when I search https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=url&scope=set%3Astackage the second result is the package "url" and there's a "Uses" link on the right |
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| 16:43:32 | <Rembane> | That's really cool |
| 16:43:50 | <liz> | does the "up" in ghcup stand for anything? i always read it as G-H-Cup |
| 16:44:32 | <shapr> | I assumed it was "update" for both ghcup and rustup, but I never thought about it? |
| 16:44:54 | <shapr> | check it out! when I click the "Uses" link I get reverse dependencies! https://packdeps.haskellers.com/reverse/url |
| 16:45:07 | <liz> | oh wow that's cool :o |
| 16:45:07 | <Rembane> | I read it as the up in `ip link eno1 up` |
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| 16:53:10 | <monochrom> | I think of "suit up" and "level up". |
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| 16:57:14 | <Hecate> | shapr: oh yeah that's a redirect to packdeps :) |
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| 16:57:29 | <shapr> | yah, it's cool! I wish I knew about this before. |
| 16:57:50 | <shapr> | I also wish I had "uses in the last year" and that this link showed up for everything, not just packages |
| 16:57:56 | <shapr> | salut Hecate, ca va? |
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| 17:03:02 | <Hecate> | shapr: ça va. :) |
| 17:03:09 | <shapr> | :-) |
| 17:03:28 | <Hecate> | I'm having some trouble finishing the last couple issues needed for a Flora V1 |
| 17:04:27 | <shapr> | What are those issues? |
| 17:04:29 | monochrom | sets mode -o monochrom |
| 17:05:10 | <Hecate> | shapr: https://github.com/flora-pm/flora-server/milestone/1 |
| 17:05:32 | shapr | clones |
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| 17:06:18 | shapr | builds |
| 17:06:52 | <Hecate> | shapr: the worst one I'd say, is this one https://github.com/flora-pm/flora-server/issues/78 |
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| 17:11:00 | <shapr> | whoa, datalog? |
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| 17:13:00 | <lechner> | Hi, what's a good way to understand, please, why Nix is so popular with some haskellers? Is it reproducibility? |
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| 17:14:12 | <hpc> | nix is also a pure functional language |
| 17:14:29 | <hpc> | and someone went through the effort of making packaging haskell nix packages a lot easier |
| 17:14:59 | <hpc> | and it's just interesting |
| 17:15:02 | <shapr> | nix being pure means you can cache the compiled packages and then download them instead of rebuilding them locally. |
| 17:15:03 | <Hecate> | shapr: ouais, j'utilise ça pour normaliser les catégories |
| 17:15:10 | <shapr> | c'est choutte |
| 17:15:46 | <Hecate> | yup' |
| 17:15:50 | <Hecate> | c'est très chouette |
| 17:15:58 | <shapr> | Is there a #haskell.fr ? |
| 17:16:09 | <shapr> | huh, yes but it's dead |
| 17:16:12 | shapr | shrugs |
| 17:16:23 | <Hecate> | shapr: #haskell-fr actually |
| 17:16:46 | <exarkun> | sometimes the cache even has stuff you wanted |
| 17:17:49 | <Hecate> | exarkun: no way |
| 17:18:54 | <lechner> | does nix in haskell refer to the whole nixos, or just the package manager? |
| 17:19:32 | <Hecate> | lechner: just the package manager and the language |
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| 17:19:51 | <Hecate> | nix is popular amongst Haskellers because many here think that it is the redemption and salvation of programmers |
| 17:20:00 | <lechner> | so nix is cabal for the non-haskell pieces |
| 17:20:13 | <lechner> | ? |
| 17:20:19 | <lechner> | that was a question |
| 17:20:22 | <Hecate> | oh nix can even be for your haskell pieces |
| 17:20:28 | <shapr> | lechner: I think that's a good description. |
| 17:20:39 | <Hecate> | but that's another layer of complexity, and another culture |
| 17:21:19 | <Hecate> | shapr: if you want to toy with Flora you're more than welcome to ask questions :) Just send them in PM so that I don't miss them in the channel |
| 17:21:31 | <shapr> | lechner: one thing I like about nix is that I can specify all the dependencies for whatever I'm making, and they'll all be in scope when I switch to that project's context |
| 17:21:40 | <shapr> | Hecate: or perhaps #haskell-in-depth ? |
| 17:21:45 | <lechner> | how do you switch? |
| 17:22:09 | <lechner> | or, what's a context? |
| 17:22:09 | <shapr> | lechner: I use direnv so all the pieces are in scope when I change into that directory. |
| 17:22:10 | <Hecate> | shapr: damn I didn't about this channel :D |
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| 17:22:40 | <shapr> | lechner: for example, my project https://github.com/shapr/takedouble does that |
| 17:23:15 | <shapr> | lechner: the two popular ways I see nix used is "nix as package manager on top of other operating system" and "nix as operating system" |
| 17:23:34 | <shapr> | if you have nix as pkg manager, you can do most of the same things |
| 17:23:50 | <lechner> | How do I bring Nix's greatness to Debian? |
| 17:24:02 | <shapr> | you can install nix-as-package-manager |
| 17:24:40 | <lechner> | but the nix you run is completely sandboxed? |
| 17:24:55 | <shapr> | mostly sandboxed, I have some things in global scope |
| 17:25:07 | <shapr> | like zsh, firefox, emacs |
| 17:25:26 | <geekosaur> | and even global scope isn't so global if you conditionalize the environment variable setup as I did |
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| 17:25:54 | <lechner> | if a personal question is permitted, what is our base systom, please? |
| 17:25:58 | <lechner> | your |
| 17:26:17 | <shapr> | I'm using NixOS directly on my laptop, but I used nix on mac at my last job. |
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| 17:26:34 | <geekosaur> | I've used Nix with Ubuntu in the past |
| 17:26:57 | <lechner> | shapr: and NixOS has everything you need? |
| 17:27:09 | <shapr> | lechner: for some value of everything, yes |
| 17:27:17 | <lechner> | geekosaur: I'll need your advice in a minute! |
| 17:27:34 | <geekosaur> | not using it currently but still have the setupif I do decide to reinstall it |
| 17:27:48 | <shapr> | that is, some things are not yet packaged for nix/nixos, and it can be a pain to hammer a new package into the hermetically sealed viewpoint of nix |
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| 17:28:05 | <lechner> | why sealed? |
| 17:28:20 | <geekosaur> | one thing I did not like about Nix was duplication: not only do you have to gc regularly to avoid Nix installing multiple copues of things, but having it duplicate parts of the OS is also annoying |
| 17:28:22 | <shapr> | you can't know the exact dependencies otherwise |
| 17:28:42 | <shapr> | yeah, that duplication can use lots of disk space |
| 17:28:46 | <exarkun> | geekosaur: There are simple toggles you can turn on to run GC automatically. |
| 17:28:51 | <geekosaur> | but it goes along with the "sealed" thing |
| 17:29:00 | <lechner> | too tight? |
| 17:29:06 | <shapr> | ? |
| 17:29:20 | <exarkun> | The duplication is not, of course *actual* duplication. It's more like almost-duplication. |
| 17:29:21 | <lechner> | one upgrade triggers too many rebuilds? |
| 17:29:46 | <exarkun> | On Debian, if you upgrade glibc-locale then it just switches out from underneath all the rest of the software on your system |
| 17:30:05 | <exarkun> | You still have version X.Y.Z of some random Foo package, but it's not actually the same software anymore because now it's using a different from of one of its dependencies |
| 17:30:11 | <exarkun> | On NixOS, this doesn't happen |
| 17:30:20 | <lechner> | due the way NixOS works, they do not distribute binaries, right? And never will? |
| 17:30:32 | <geekosaur> | there is cachix |
| 17:30:36 | <exarkun> | If you get a new version of a dependency, you get a new version of everything that depends on it (and you can keep or toss the old version with the previous version of the dependency, as you prefer). |
| 17:30:45 | <exarkun> | NixOS does distribute binaries |
| 17:30:53 | <exarkun> | Terabytes and terabytes of binaries |
| 17:31:22 | <lechner> | are they permutations? |
| 17:31:41 | <exarkun> | If you're a regular computer user instead of a programmer, chances are you will never do a local build of anything when using NixOS |
| 17:31:49 | <exarkun> | (Chances are if you are a regular computer user you are not using NixOS, of course) |
| 17:31:53 | <shapr> | :-D |
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| 17:32:27 | <exarkun> | lechner: NixOS is developed in a repo named "nixpkgs". A revision of nixpkgs is basically a version of the whole first-party package tree and the OS definition. |
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| 17:32:49 | <lechner> | yeah, i have actually contributed to it |
| 17:32:54 | <exarkun> | lechner: There are certain branches in the development workflow for which binaries are built for every revision |
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| 17:33:04 | <exarkun> | lechner: So if you install one of those revisions, all of the binaries are there. |
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| 17:33:22 | <exarkun> | If you pick a different branch that's not part of that system, you get to build a ton of stuff |
| 17:33:23 | <lechner> | i see |
| 17:33:34 | <exarkun> | Or if you're packaging your own software that's not part of nixpkgs, you get to build that stuff |
| 17:33:43 | <exarkun> | Cachix is pretty nice and makes it easy for you to have a binary cache of your own stuff |
| 17:33:52 | <lechner> | it's like a completely declarative Gentoo |
| 17:33:55 | <shapr> | yes |
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| 17:34:22 | <shapr> | I'd say most of the pain of nixos comes from everyday linux software taking a thoroughly non-declarative approach |
| 17:34:43 | <exarkun> | yea, there's a /massive/ mismatch between the way nixos works and the way most people are used a linux working |
| 17:35:03 | <exarkun> | the mismatch can create a little friction or a lot of friction, just depends |
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| 17:37:28 | <shapr> | back to my question of an hour ago, is there a suggested URL type on hackage? |
| 17:37:37 | <exarkun> | Some other pain of nixos comes from the nix language and toolchain being ... less than fully realized with respect to certain well-known desirable user affordances |
| 17:37:46 | <shapr> | exarkun: ooh, I wanna hear you expand on that |
| 17:37:56 | <lechner> | what's that is plain English, please? |
| 17:38:08 | <exarkun> | eehh |
| 17:38:19 | <shapr> | My biggest challenge is that I have never found a single document defining all the attributes and what they do. |
| 17:38:28 | <hpc> | lechner: it's very hard to use :P |
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| 17:38:48 | <lechner> | in Debian, we have what we call the "vendoring problem". it's a massive infrastructure mismatch between language-specific package managers and debian's traditional archive. debian must solve it in order to stay relevant |
| 17:38:50 | <exarkun> | ty hpc |
| 17:39:37 | <shapr> | I consider nix the language agnostic package manager, and once you get over the starting cost, it's really good at that. |
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| 17:39:41 | <exarkun> | For example one of the most common error messages I get from Nix is "error: value is a string while a set was expected" |
| 17:39:43 | <shapr> | starting cost is high though |
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| 17:39:57 | <exarkun> | (and various predictable variations) |
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| 17:40:18 | <exarkun> | Ultimately this is caused by very simple, reasonable programming mistakes |
| 17:41:04 | <exarkun> | Unfortunately you get very little extra help in finding the mistake |
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| 17:41:56 | <exarkun> | shapr: I agree documentation is another big weakness. |
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| 17:45:24 | <shapr> | what's the suggested SHA1 type at the moment? |
| 17:46:11 | <shapr> | I'll try cryptonite |
| 17:46:28 | <maerwald> | uh-oh |
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| 17:46:42 | <exarkun> | did I hear some people poo-pooing cryptonite recently |
| 17:47:13 | <exarkun> | details are not coming to me |
| 17:48:00 | <geekosaur> | various people distrust it because it does its own crypto and hasn't been validated |
| 17:48:03 | <shapr> | maerwald: what would you suggest instead? |
| 17:48:52 | <maerwald> | shapr: https://github.com/haskell-crypto/cryptonite/issues/330 |
| 17:49:01 | <maerwald> | shapr: I use something else, let me check |
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| 17:49:25 | <shapr> | ouch |
| 17:49:36 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cryptohash-sha1 |
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| 17:49:41 | <shapr> | ok, I'll use that, thanks |
| 17:51:22 | <exarkun> | ouch indeed :/ |
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| 17:52:46 | <maerwald> | was also discussed here https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2020-August/030670.html with some... ehm, "strong" replies |
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| 18:18:13 | <d34df00d> | Hi! |
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| 18:18:50 | <shapr> | howdy d34df00d, how you doin? |
| 18:19:05 | <d34df00d> | I bumped my stackage lts to 19.1 (the one with ghc 9.0.2), and now I get `Could not find module ‘Prelude’ // Perhaps you haven't installed the profiling libraries for package ‘base-4.15.1.0’?` when I try to build a just created project with `stack build --profile`. |
| 18:19:18 | <d34df00d> | So, what am I doing wrong and how to fix this? |
| 18:19:30 | <d34df00d> | shapr: can't profile, that sucks :( |
| 18:19:38 | <shapr> | oh, that's no fun |
| 18:19:43 | <shapr> | I don't know anything about stack, sorry |
| 18:20:03 | <maerwald> | maybe https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/21190 ? |
| 18:20:22 | <maerwald> | they're switching to hadrian produced bindists, so maybe 9.0.2 is affected as well |
| 18:20:31 | <d34df00d> | maerwald: that looks related, except that's 9.2.2 and I'm having that with 9.0.2. |
| 18:20:43 | <d34df00d> | Yep, would be interesting if 9.0.2 is also affected. |
| 18:21:03 | <d34df00d> | Curious what's the fix. |
| 18:21:11 | <d34df00d> | (except rolling back to 8.10) |
| 18:21:42 | <maerwald> | I think it is affected |
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| 18:26:24 | <maerwald> | so you'll have to build from source |
| 18:27:29 | <d34df00d> | Ugh, probably not worth it. |
| 18:27:42 | <maerwald> | ghcup compile ghc -j 10 -v 9.0.2 -b 8.10.7 |
| 18:27:42 | <d34df00d> | I think I'll just revert to ghc-8.10/lts-18.x |
| 18:28:48 | <maerwald> | you can use ghc-8.10.7 with lts-19.1 |
| 18:30:05 | <geekosaur> | there have been a couple reports of the 9.0.2 bindist missing profiling libraries; best you can currently do is still to 8.10.7 apparently |
| 18:30:17 | <geekosaur> | s/still/stick |
| 18:30:42 | <maerwald> | d34df00d: what distro? |
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| 18:32:27 | <d34df00d> | maerwald: gentoo lol |
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| 18:32:58 | <maerwald> | d34df00d: I think that's binary compatible with fedora34... I'm building 9.0.2 there right now and can upload the bindist afterwards |
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| 18:36:46 | <d34df00d> | maerwald: that'd be useful, thanks! |
| 18:36:55 | <d34df00d> | maerwald: how would I marry that to stack? |
| 18:36:59 | <maerwald> | system-ghc: true |
| 18:37:03 | <d34df00d> | Ah, makes sense. |
| 18:37:07 | <maerwald> | https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/yaml_configuration/#system-ghc |
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| 18:37:30 | <d34df00d> | Hmm, how do I check if a ghc installation has a version of base libraries with profiling enabled? |
| 18:37:58 | <d34df00d> | I already have gentoo's own prebuilt binaries, so wonder if they'd work. |
| 18:38:55 | <maerwald> | you try to build a project with profiling enabled |
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| 18:40:54 | <geekosaur> | you can dig around for libHSbase-x.y.z.w-somehash.p_a, but just trying to build a profiled helloworld app would probably be easier |
| 18:41:57 | <geekosaur> | hm,or just look in its install for any file with suffix .p_a I guess would be enough |
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| 18:42:37 | <d34df00d> | Nope, no p_a for me :( |
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| 18:44:54 | <geekosaur> | oh, looks like it's _p.a |
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| 18:45:48 | <geekosaur> | interestingly, whatever build it used on my system has the p.a and p_hi files in at least 9.2.2 |
| 18:45:55 | geekosaur | checks 9.0.2 |
| 18:46:08 | <geekosaur> | missing there |
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| 18:49:02 | <d34df00d> | Well, I actually just grepped the installed files for libHSbase and got libHSbase-4.15.1.0-ghc9.0.2.so and libHSbase-4.15.1.0.a, and that's it. |
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| 18:54:07 | <janus> | d34df00d: did you already see https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/20707 ? |
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| 18:56:05 | <janus> | i don't understand why there is both 21190 and 20707.. |
| 18:56:27 | <lechner> | different versions? |
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| 18:59:26 | <janus> | well you'd think the fix for 9.2.1 would make it such that no issue for 9.2.2 would be needed |
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| 19:02:23 | <lechner> | "issues like #21190" https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/7753 |
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| 19:18:32 | <maerwald> | d34df00d: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/unofficial-bindists/ghc/9.0.2/ghc-9.0.2-x86_64-linux-fedora-34-2022-04-03T19%3A16%3A31.167697719Z-99084194.tar.xz |
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| 19:27:20 | <d34df00d> | maerwald: yay, thanks! |
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| 20:27:53 | <maerwald> | good to know optparse-applicative isn't runtime-safe just because it compiles |
| 20:28:03 | <maerwald> | you can just get an infinite loop |
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| 20:28:46 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/pcapriotti/optparse-applicative/issues/58 |
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| 20:56:11 | <janus> | is it going to be a lot slower to do `length . Map.elems` instead of just `length` straight on the map? |
| 20:58:05 | <geekosaur> | it will be slower, since length on Map is probably using Map.size |
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| 21:12:28 | <janus> | ok, makes sense, thanks |
| 21:13:09 | <janus> | turns out i can't avoid constructing iterating the map anyway because i wanna get rid of deprecated packages |
| 21:13:18 | <janus> | s/constructing// |
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| 21:13:50 | <janus> | oh well, should still be faster now... |
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| 21:17:30 | <janus> | sclv: these two commits are kinda independent but i put them in the same PR because i think they should both be palatable: https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/pull/1049/commits |
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| 21:21:53 | <sclv> | janus: nice. on the face of it it looks better |
| 21:22:32 | <janus> | i am kinda thinking now that the huge slowdown for non-search is just because it wasn't using itemCache |
| 21:22:40 | <janus> | so turns out there was a cache already, i guess :) |
| 21:24:12 | <sclv> | cool. maybe i'll let the dust settle a bit and redeploy again on the weekend |
| 21:24:23 | <janus> | yep yep |
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| 23:53:04 | <dons> | morning all. happy monday. |
| 23:55:21 | <geekosaur> | o/ |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-04-03.