Logs on 2022-04-10 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:02:52 | <abastro[m]> | I see, thanks! Sad that macros require TH which inhibits compilation |
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| 00:22:15 | <d34df00d> | What's the best way to tell ghc's codegen a branch is unreachable? |
| 00:23:17 | <abastro[m]> | Do you mean in pattern matching? |
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| 00:23:38 | <d34df00d> | abastro: almost — in a pattern guard. |
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| 00:25:17 | <d34df00d> | I have four guards of the form `| upperBits == 0b00` (and for the three other possibilities), ``where upperBits = someWord `shiftR` 6``, so there could be no other options but ghc (unsurprisingly) can't see that. |
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| 00:25:46 | <d34df00d> | I could've used `otherwise` on the last branch, but it kinda breaks the symmetry of the code, so I'd much rather write `| otherwise = unreachable???` after those four branches. |
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| 00:26:29 | <dsal> | You could define a complete pattern synonym possibly. |
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| 00:36:54 | <abastro[m]> | Another possibility would be pattern matching on bit 6 & bit 7 |
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| 00:51:00 | <d34df00d> | The idea with pattern synonyms is interesting, I think it might be the most readable. Thanks! |
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| 02:14:32 | <sshine> | why is there both an 'aeson-schema' and an 'aeson-schemas' package? that's confusing. |
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| 02:16:48 | <sshine> | they're even approximately equally popular (76 vs. 100 downloads). |
| 02:17:40 | <dsal> | People make packages and upload them. |
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| 02:20:47 | <sshine> | apparently, at the bottom of aeson-schema's README they say they only support draft v3, whereas another hjsonschema package supports draft v4, but this package is also deprecated. so aeson-schemas it is. :) |
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| 03:45:42 | <Sgeo> | Do algebraic effects have laws corresponding to the monad laws? If so, are they written out somewhere? Can they differ between effect systems (I'm looking at Unison >.> ) |
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| 05:17:43 | <abastro[m]> | I guess each effect system have their own laws - tbh their semantics are quite confusing to me. |
| 05:17:55 | <abastro[m]> | All of them have distinct semantics somehow. |
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| 07:23:45 | <jonathanx_> | I'm trying out cabal a bit (long term stack user), and can't figure out how to run tests with file watch. Google is rather unhelpful. I'm on vscode with HLS, if that helps |
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| 07:53:29 | <maerwald[m]> | jonathanx_: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/5252 |
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| 08:34:20 | <Unicorn_Princess> | hm. so i can't partially define a function using pattern-matching, and if all the patterns fall through, use like, point-free style for the rest? |
| 08:35:14 | <Unicorn_Princess> | e.g. zero_out_two 2 = 0; zero_out_two = id; |
| 08:35:58 | <Rembane> | Unicorn_Princess: That's true, all function equations need to have the same number of arguments. Have a lookt at LambdaCase though. |
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| 08:38:05 | <Unicorn_Princess> | and there was some syntax where I don't have to write all the arguments in a pattern-match constructor.. someting like instead of IHaveManyArgs a _ _ _ _, I could write IHaveManyArgs a ...? |
| 08:39:05 | <Rembane> | You could put all your arguments into a record or a tuple instead. |
| 08:39:42 | <Unicorn_Princess> | oh maybe i'm thinking of Rust that lets you do this.. |
| 08:41:02 | <Rembane> | How does Rust let you do this? |
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| 08:43:04 | <Unicorn_Princess> | like this: https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch18-03-pattern-syntax.html#ignoring-remaining-parts-of-a-value-with- |
| 08:44:21 | <Rembane> | That's really nice, you can do that in Haskell too, in the same way as in Rust, but you need some language extensions, lets see if I can find them. |
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| 08:44:48 | <abastro[m]> | Hmm |
| 08:44:54 | <abastro[m]> | I think haskell has sth like it without extension |
| 08:44:55 | <abastro[m]> | For records* |
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| 08:45:05 | <Unicorn_Princess> | ah, this is what you meant, Rembane: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/38052553/haskell-record-pattern-matching |
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| 08:45:29 | <Unicorn_Princess> | very handy, and i already have a record, so it's just what i need |
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| 08:48:22 | <Rembane> | Unicorn_Princess: Bingo! Also this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/5ijs45HK |
| 08:49:12 | <Unicorn_Princess> | not even a ..? i don't like it >:( |
| 08:49:28 | <Rembane> | :D |
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| 08:49:42 | <Rembane> | You won't be using the dots for anything, so what are they good for? |
| 08:49:48 | <Unicorn_Princess> | oh wait |
| 08:50:20 | <Unicorn_Princess> | if f was instead `f R { b } = b`.. |
| 08:50:28 | <Unicorn_Princess> | then it would return the b field? |
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| 08:50:40 | <Rembane> | Bingo! |
| 08:50:47 | <Unicorn_Princess> | in that case i do like it :) |
| 08:50:49 | <Rembane> | There's another way to do it too: https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/record_wildcards.html |
| 08:50:52 | <Rembane> | ^^ |
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| 08:52:03 | <Unicorn_Princess> | ah, but works only if there aren't two arguments with the same constructor, eh? |
| 08:53:23 | <Rembane> | Yeah, that's usually true for all nice things. |
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| 08:54:43 | <Rembane> | Or wait... I think I misinterpreted your question, I thought you meant many constructors in the same datatype and records for each. |
| 08:54:46 | <Rembane> | Do you have an example? |
| 08:55:55 | <Unicorn_Princess> | nope, you didn't misunderstand |
| 08:56:12 | <Unicorn_Princess> | and A{record_name=r} solves my issue perfectly |
| 08:56:39 | <Unicorn_Princess> | hrm. now why can't i find how to rename a variable in the haskell lsp... brb |
| 08:56:42 | <Rembane> | Cool, in the case of many constructors for a datatype with records for each lenses are usually the solution for that, but that's a whole other can of worms. |
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| 09:47:12 | <Unicorn_Princess> | ah, looks like i was looking in the right place, but haskell-lsp doesn't support renaming |
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| 09:47:35 | <Unicorn_Princess> | (the emacs lisp function is called lsp-rename, fyi) |
| 09:48:48 | <abastro[m]> | I think it used to support renaming |
| 09:48:53 | <abastro[m]> | Idk where the functionality has gone hmm |
| 09:49:14 | <abastro[m]> | Perhaps some ppl thought text replace is enough, I guess |
| 09:49:20 | Unicorn_Princess | will stay outside that particular rabbit hole |
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| 15:13:51 | <Inst> | proposal: Monad refers to the category theory concept and the typeclass only. |
| 15:14:07 | <Inst> | MAF refers to Monadic Applicative Functor and a datatype that can be instanced into Monad |
| 15:15:55 | <geekosaur> | it's a bit late to change that, I think |
| 15:16:09 | <hpc> | counter-proposal: rename Functor to Map, Applicative to DSL, and Monad to DesignPattern |
| 15:16:13 | <hpc> | >:) |
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| 15:18:17 | <abastro[m]> | >:3 |
| 15:19:38 | <hpc> | even more evil proposal: redefine const to "const x = x", because variables in haskell are already const by default |
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| 15:23:45 | <hpc> | the id function hashes a value's memory and returns a guid |
| 15:23:51 | <hpc> | the data keyword has been renamed to type |
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| 15:23:56 | <abastro[m]> | `:t pure @((->) a)` |
| 15:24:03 | <hpc> | type is now a function that types out what it was given to stdout :D |
| 15:24:06 | <abastro[m]> | :t pure @((->) a) |
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| 15:24:07 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘->’ |
| 15:24:33 | <abastro[m]> | Wh |
| 15:24:46 | <hpc> | er, the data keyword has been renamed to class |
| 15:24:53 | <hpc> | to fit in with other oop languages :D |
| 15:25:05 | <geekosaur> | lambdabot doens't support TypeApplications |
| 15:25:08 | <abastro[m]> | That's the spirit |
| 15:25:19 | <abastro[m]> | Oh lambdabot :< |
| 15:25:23 | <hpc> | % :t pure @((->) a) |
| 15:25:23 | <yahb> | hpc: ; <interactive>:1:13: error: Not in scope: type variable `a' |
| 15:25:31 | <hpc> | % :t pure @(->) |
| 15:25:31 | <yahb> | hpc: ; <interactive>:1:7: error:; * Expecting one more argument to `(->)'; Expected kind `* -> *', but `(->)' has kind `* -> * -> *'; * In the type `(->)'; In the expression: pure @(->) |
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| 15:25:36 | <hpc> | bah |
| 15:25:41 | <geekosaur> | % :t pure @((->) _) |
| 15:25:41 | <yahb> | geekosaur: a -> w -> a |
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| 15:25:57 | <abastro[m]> | % :t pure @((->) _) |
| 15:25:57 | <yahb> | abastro[m]: a -> w -> a |
| 15:26:03 | <abastro[m]> | Oh ninja'd |
| 15:26:51 | <abastro[m]> | So that is an alternative implementation of traditional const |
| 15:27:53 | <hpc> | also ($) is redefined as ($) = jquery |
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| 15:29:15 | <abastro[m]> | I legit heard of suggestions like... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/041a4b39e1a7222df46672e7cff2d833dbaf166b) |
| 15:30:00 | <abastro[m]> | I guess F# folks might like that |
| 15:30:16 | <hpc> | we can split the difference |
| 15:30:20 | <hpc> | Functor => Functorable |
| 15:31:22 | <Zemyla> | What would Contravariant be renamed? |
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| 16:23:59 | <monochrom> | ContravariantFunctorable? >:) |
| 16:25:47 | <monochrom> | Ah, late to the party. |
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| 16:29:04 | <monochrom> | https://betterprogramming.pub/monads-are-just-fancy-semicolons-ffe38401fd0e will serve as perpetual reminder that whenever people believe "oh, I know", they are fooling themselves. |
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| 16:41:45 | <c_wraith> | Ah, the good old unlawful bind counting "monad" |
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| 18:14:19 | <arjun> | hi, if i have a type say StateT Stack (MaybeT m) with m as my base monad |
| 18:14:42 | <arjun> | when i use lift, do i go from inside out, or outside in ? |
| 18:14:46 | <Franciman> | hi arjun |
| 18:14:50 | <Franciman> | :t lift |
| 18:14:51 | <lambdabot> | (MonadTrans t, Monad m) => m a -> t m a |
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| 18:14:59 | <Franciman> | so you go from m to MaybeT m |
| 18:15:12 | <Franciman> | or from MaybeT m to StateT Stack (MaybeT m) |
| 18:15:14 | <arjun> | so i am in the base monad by default |
| 18:15:20 | <Franciman> | lower level yes |
| 18:15:31 | <arjun> | and to a ask or a put i'd have to lift twice ? |
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| 18:17:37 | <arjun> | thanks Franciman |
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| 18:30:35 | <maerwald> | arjun: put should work without lifting |
| 18:30:47 | <maerwald> | :t put |
| 18:30:48 | <lambdabot> | MonadState s m => s -> m () |
| 18:30:56 | <maerwald> | put :: Monad m => s -> StateT s m () |
| 18:31:30 | <maerwald> | mtl might be confusing here |
| 18:32:10 | <arjun> | thanks maerwald |
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| 18:41:00 | <maerwald> | I realise I don't have a good tutorial link for transformers |
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| 18:41:55 | <maerwald> | arjun: have you written ReaderT/StateT by hand? |
| 18:42:38 | <arjun> | can't remember :x |
| 18:42:56 | <maerwald> | newtype ReaderT r m a = ReaderT { runReaderT :: ??? } |
| 18:42:59 | <maerwald> | fill in ??? |
| 18:43:33 | <arjun> | r -> m a ? |
| 18:43:48 | <maerwald> | right, now write Functor, Applicative and Monad instance |
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| 18:45:18 | <arjun> | right, will do (tomorrow) it's 12:15 here, gotta catch some Zzz |
| 18:45:29 | <maerwald> | also, you'll like ContT |
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| 18:46:20 | <arjun> | i'll look into it, thanks |
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| 18:52:21 | <maerwald> | next week ragequit and questions about polysemy :D |
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| 18:56:42 | <maerwald> | haskell and its rabbit holes |
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| 19:49:21 | <acacia> | hey, I want to write some tests for a web app and want to parse html to make sure the data embedded in it is as expected. What are my options? Any favorite package? |
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| 19:51:33 | <geekosaur> | how much do you trust the web app to be html compliant? if "not very" then tagsoup is the only sane choice |
| 19:51:47 | <geekosaur> | (there's a *lot* of invalid HTML out there) |
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| 19:54:07 | <acacia> | yeah it should be html compliant |
| 19:54:40 | <acacia> | that's not a problem, just looking for the easiest thing to use |
| 19:54:50 | <acacia> | I'll take a look at tagsoup. thanks |
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| 19:59:58 | <AdityaAlok[m]> | Hello, everyone!... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2f16d604c1b71ed6cb585c843567d0f15c6ee091) |
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| 20:00:49 | <maerwald> | tagsoup does not handle all invalid html well |
| 20:02:05 | <sm> | what's wrong with good old isInfixOf |
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| 20:02:14 | <geekosaur> | AdityaAlok[m], you would need to link against a wrapper library, and probably need to find out why the indirection in the first place |
| 20:03:30 | <maerwald> | AdityaAlok[m]: very likely you have to patch the library |
| 20:03:37 | <maerwald> | and use capi instead of ccall |
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| 20:04:12 | <maerwald> | also see https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20210709-capi-usage.html |
| 20:04:54 | <maerwald> | and https://github.com/haskell/unix/pull/110#issuecomment-613384845 |
| 20:04:58 | <maerwald> | as an example |
| 20:04:59 | <AdityaAlok[m]> | maerwald: Thank you! I'll try it. |
| 20:05:02 | <maerwald> | why ccall is bad |
| 20:05:38 | <maerwald> | capi follows include indirections |
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| 20:26:41 | <ElVinzFR> | Beginner. I want to create a "loop" in which the user input a value, then a state is changed (for a toy example, an update in a component in a vector). I thought I could use a recursion in an IO monad, but apparently there is not tail recursion optimization for a monad. What would be the easiest way for me to code my problem ? This would be the |
| 20:26:42 | <ElVinzFR> | starting point to code a game, so I need a cycle of input / state change. |
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| 20:30:42 | <ElVinzFR> | I am a bit lost, so even pointing to a tutorial, or a snippet online would be an improvement. |
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| 20:34:39 | <c_wraith> | ElVinzFR: the fact that combining IO actions with >> or >>= isn't tail recursive doesn't mean it isn't efficient. It is efficient. |
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| 20:40:45 | <geekosaur> | "tail recursion" is not what you think it is in Haskell. |
| 20:41:25 | <geekosaur> | (in fact, everything is tail recursive at the graph reduction level) |
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| 20:57:00 | <monochrom> | But tail recursion in IO such as "main = do { putStrLn "hello"; main }" works as expected. |
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| 21:01:28 | <shachaf> | Despite the main not being in tail position! |
| 21:01:39 | <c_wraith> | well. it's not tail recursion. it's just efficient recursion |
| 21:01:56 | <shachaf> | I think the analogy to tail recursion is pretty reasonable. |
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| 21:02:31 | <c_wraith> | IO happens to work out that way. Not every implementation of (>>=) is so cooperative with that analogy |
| 21:03:08 | <hpc> | tail recursion is a special case of efficient recursion :P |
| 21:03:14 | geekosaur | checks to see if you've scared the OP away yet :) |
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| 21:08:25 | <monochrom> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2007-May/025591.html |
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| 21:17:25 | hpc | . o O ( tail recursion is whenever the recursive call doesn't grow the call stack, and if you don't have a call stack there's no such thing as tail recursion ) |
| 21:18:05 | <dolio> | One of the problems is that people insist on talking about "recursion". |
| 21:18:40 | <monochrom> | IMO renaming "call stack" to "evaluation stack" and concluding "I have no call stack" is just being smug. |
| 21:19:01 | <hpc> | monochrom: well, let's consider that |
| 21:19:15 | <dolio> | Also they don't study Scheme, I guess, which has all sorts of procedures that specify that various arguments are "in tail position" even though they are not in tail position from a very naive syntactic reading. |
| 21:19:21 | <hpc> | on the evaluation stack, what kind of "to evaluate this, i need to evaluate that" doesn't grow the stack |
| 21:19:42 | <hpc> | i think the only thing is <<loop>> |
| 21:20:01 | <hpc> | but i could be wrong |
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| 21:21:07 | <shachaf> | In an imperative language turning tail recursion into a jump seems like a pretty pointless optimization, since you can just write "while (true) { }" around your function body to get the same effect. |
| 21:21:27 | <shachaf> | Other tail calls are probably more useful (though I'd still rather have it be explicit than done as an optimization, usually). |
| 21:22:18 | <dolio> | Well, that's easy. It's not an optimization. The compiler has to do it. |
| 21:22:19 | <hpc> | from the evaluation stack's perspective, something like an infinite list isn't even recursion - there's a constructor in the way that breaks it up |
| 21:22:43 | <hpc> | like a trampoline |
| 21:22:59 | <shachaf> | Yes, that seems fine, I mean in a language like C where it's an optional optimization. |
| 21:23:29 | <dolio> | Yeah, well, gaining an understanding of this from C compilers is not good. |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-04-10.