Logs on 2022-04-11 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:20:37 | <dons> | morning all. |
| 00:21:35 | <Axman6> | o/ |
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| 00:25:03 | <geekosaur> | o/ |
| 00:25:19 | <dmj`> | o/ |
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| 01:00:22 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | o/ |
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| 01:15:54 | <Axman6> | So I started learning Rust over the weekend. So far it's been easy going, having a background in Haskell makes a lot of it feel familliar so you just learn the syntax. I haven't run into anything where I needed to think hard about the borrow checker yet. Keen to try implementing something like a persistent finger tree, which should deal with all that fun |
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| 01:22:20 | <abastro[m]> | I heard rust is easy to learn for smone from imperative langs as well |
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| 01:24:32 | <Axman6> | I would suspect that that would depend a lot on the languages people know. C++ should be a relatively smooth transition because they're used to thinking about the same ideas that rust enforces with the borrow checker, but coming from python would be pretty daunting because you've got to learn a type system, to think about where memory is allocated etc. |
| 01:24:56 | <dolio> | Does it have lazy evaluation for the finger trees? |
| 01:25:10 | <Axman6> | I doubt it |
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| 01:26:54 | <Axman6> | though there is a std:lazy, so maybe? |
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| 01:27:32 | <Guest7370> | This is my first time in an IRC room, joined for the sole purpose of finding this haskell channel |
| 01:28:08 | <Guest7370> | Much googling revealed that this channel is deemed one of the best, so cheers +1 |
| 01:28:32 | <Axman6> | Congratulations, you made it! |
| 01:29:03 | <Guest7370> | "I have ascended" |
| 01:29:05 | <abastro[m]> | Axman6: Well, even for python devs I mean. Like, in comparison with them learning Java |
| 01:29:06 | <Guest7370> | lol thanks |
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| 01:30:30 | <Guest7370> | So - I have a beginner question. Does anyone mind helping me out? |
| 01:30:37 | <exarkun> | Anecdotally, I know many Python developers who have successfully and blissfully transitioned to Rust. |
| 01:30:55 | <Axman6> | Guest7370: fire away - general rule for IRC is: Don't ask to ask, just ask |
| 01:31:14 | <exarkun> | Python programmers have been practicing thinking about types with their toy type system for a while now, too. :) |
| 01:31:40 | <Axman6> | that's true, I forget that python programmers are often good at types because they have to do all their own type checking |
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| 01:35:19 | <Guest7370> | Gotcha, I'll remember that. I have a type constraint on a function for an IO param type. The thing I'm returning satisfies that constraint, but for some reason I keep getting compiler errors. My constraint is (ToJSON a), ultimatly returning IO a. I have a record that I return at the end which is an instance of ToJSON, but it keeps telling me it can't match the actual type IO myThing with IO a. I |
| 01:35:21 | <Guest7370> | was under the impression that as long as "myThing" was an instance of the constraint type, then all would be good, but that doesn't seem to be the case. |
| 01:36:02 | <Guest7370> | I'm using terminal IRC so posting code is probably awkward, but has anyone encountered any gotchas with constraints around aeson ToJSON and their own record types? |
| 01:36:54 | <Axman6> | what ToJSON a => IO a says is: it is an IO action that can return _any_ type a which is an instance of ToJSON, and it is the caller who gets to decide what a is |
| 01:37:13 | <Axman6> | @where paste |
| 01:37:13 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 01:37:54 | <Guest7370> | sure thing, i'll go copy it. |
| 01:38:14 | <Axman6> | so what you've written can't really ever be written, it's impossible to be able to create an a out of thin air that matches the type the caller wants |
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| 01:38:48 | <abastro[m]> | Perhaps writing `forall a. ToJSON a => IO a` could be better |
| 01:39:19 | <Axman6> | abastro[m]: try writing something with that type that doesn't use error in some way |
| 01:41:49 | <Guest7370> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/DJcU3wso |
| 01:42:17 | <Axman6> | Guest7370: there are cases where it is possible to do similar things to what you're tryint to do, like Monoid m => IO m is always possible to write, because you can write pure mempty |
| 01:42:27 | <Guest7370> | The whole function is there. What isn't included is just my User and AppError types, both of which are ToJSON instances |
| 01:43:23 | <Axman6> | My syber security hat is not very happy with `userPassword user == password` |
| 01:43:43 | <Guest7370> | Probably just a misunderstanding on my part. I was thinking the constraint would allow me to return my user or an error. Since they're both ToJSON, my calling code could just run the action and send the output to the client |
| 01:44:17 | <Axman6> | Guest7370: yeah what you'rte doing doesn't make sense. you are trying to return two types from this, AppError and User, and those are not the same |
| 01:44:40 | <Guest7370> | Lol absolutely -- there is no security. This is step 3/1000 of me trying to build an app from the ground up without fancy libraries (does scotty count?) |
| 01:44:59 | <Axman6> | In this case, you would usually return Either AppError User |
| 01:45:14 | <dmj`> | Guest7370: probably want to make loginAction :: IO (Either AppError User), and (pure $ if userPassword user == password then Right user else Left (AppError "error message goes here") |
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| 01:45:30 | <Guest7370> | That makes a lot more sense, that's what Either is for I suppose. |
| 01:46:16 | <dmj`> | IRC-driven-development |
| 01:46:43 | <abastro[m]> | Axman6: I mean when describing the type, duh. |
| 01:47:12 | <Axman6> | you _could_ return an Aeson Value, and have the type be Connection -> Credentials -> IO Value, and then use pure $ toJSON $ AppError ... or pure $ toJSON user - but don't do that, it removes helpful information, because that Value could be literally anything |
| 01:47:15 | <Guest7370> | I'm trying to separate out app logic from api logic, so that style meshes up a lot more. Ideally i'd have a "runAction" that cases on whatever actions the app exposes, and returns an either of the result or some union of errors. |
| 01:48:54 | <Axman6> | generally we would use ExceptT in cases like this, and your application would be written in the ExceptT AppError IO a monad - that allows you to separate thinking about the happy paths from choosing where to handle errors |
| 01:48:58 | <abastro[m]> | <del>Perhaps you could do like</del> |
| 01:48:58 | <abastro[m]> | `data MyJSON = forall a. FromJSON a => MyJSON a` |
| 01:49:20 | <Axman6> | I don't think that's a good suggestion |
| 01:49:43 | <abastro[m]> | Hence <del> |
| 01:49:49 | <Guest7370> | ExceptT makes a lot of sense, for sure. It's just been a few years and I'm trying to start small before hopping into transformers |
| 01:49:53 | <abastro[m]> | In case you want pseudo OOP |
| 01:50:32 | <Axman6> | Guest7370: then I would suggest you go with the IO (Either AppError a) pattern for as long as you can stand it :) |
| 01:50:46 | <abastro[m]> | ExceptT AppError IO a ~ IO (Either AppError a) |
| 01:50:56 | <Guest7370> | "for as long as I can stand it" - probably a week or so, haha |
| 01:50:57 | <abastro[m]> | Ywp |
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| 01:51:25 | <abastro[m]> | In simple cases, that way could go fine forever |
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| 01:52:18 | <Guest7370> | I've used stacks before but I still haven't fully wrapped my head around them. Which order do you layer them in? How much MTL boilerplate for each additional feature? Then spend two weeks trying to wrap my head around Free... |
| 01:52:25 | <Guest7370> | lol the struggle is real. So like I said, starting small. |
| 01:52:34 | <abastro[m]> | I find `IO (Maybe a)` reasonable to use compared to `MaybeT IO a` in many cases |
| 01:52:40 | <Axman6> | Guest7370: it's definitely one of those things where you start using it, and then find you're writing someAction withArgs >>= \case Left e -> print e; Right a => anotherAction a >>= \case Left e -> ... and think "there must be a better way! |
| 01:53:03 | <abastro[m]> | FreeT is not something you want to even get close before understanding transformers thoroughly |
| 01:53:36 | <Guest7370> | Yep, I agree |
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| 01:54:13 | <abastro[m]> | Guest7370: For the transformer ordering, often unrolling the transformer helps |
| 01:54:38 | <abastro[m]> | `ExceptT e m a ~ m (Either e a)`, so exception is wrapped inside the `m` monad |
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| 01:55:11 | <abastro[m]> | `StateT s m a ~ s -> m (s, a)`, so this one is split up |
| 01:55:45 | <Guest7370> | I think the last app I hacked on a few years back was pretty thin, with just ExceptT, ReaderT, and IO. |
| 01:55:46 | <abastro[m]> | `ReaderT r m a ~ r -> m a`, so environment resides outside |
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| 01:56:13 | <abastro[m]> | That is indeed what ppl usually do, I think |
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| 01:56:29 | <Guest7370> | Which I remember was pretty useful, especially with being able to access all of it in one function through various lifts. That moment of "I can do all of this at the same time?!" was pretty surreal. |
| 01:56:42 | <abastro[m]> | Some argue that all we need is just `ReaderT r IO` for IO-capable stacks |
| 01:56:55 | <Guest7370> | But again, it was more of a "it works so I'll use it" scenario and not a "I totally understand what's going on" scenario. |
| 01:57:18 | <Axman6> | I find that apps generally work well with ExceptT err (ReaderT Config IO) a |
| 01:57:35 | <Guest7370> | Ah yes, Config. That was there as well. |
| 01:57:50 | <Axman6> | Guest7370: stick to IO (Either AppError a) and eventually you'll easily be able to make the change to ExceptT |
| 01:58:04 | <abastro[m]> | You do not need to understand it to use it, that's the catch IIRC I think |
| 01:58:27 | <Guest7370> | I think what trips me up are the carrier types that you use to unwrap the stack. |
| 01:58:28 | <Axman6> | s/Config/Environment really, load config at app start, build an environment (database connections, along with any settings from the Config) and pass that around |
| 01:58:48 | <Guest7370> | Like I can follow other peoples code and it makes sense, but I couldn't just go write my own off the top of my head. |
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| 01:59:06 | <abastro[m]> | When unwrapped, |
| 01:59:06 | <abastro[m]> | `ExceptT err (ReaderT Environment IO) ~ Environment -> IO (Either err)` |
| 01:59:41 | <Axman6> | @unmtl ExceptT Err (ReaderT Env IO) a |
| 01:59:42 | <lambdabot> | Env -> IO (Either Err a) |
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| 02:00:09 | <abastro[m]> | So essentially, |
| 02:00:09 | <abastro[m]> | 1. Environment is passed as a parameter |
| 02:00:09 | <abastro[m]> | 2. IO action is done |
| 02:00:09 | <abastro[m]> | 3. Gives potentially erroneous value `Either Err a` |
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| 02:00:35 | <abastro[m]> | This type wraps up into the transformer stack. Why the particular order is chosen, that is out of my mind. |
| 02:01:03 | <Guest7370> | That makes me feel better. |
| 02:01:07 | <Axman6> | @unmtl ReaderT Env (ExceptT Err IO) a |
| 02:01:07 | <lambdabot> | Env -> IO (Either Err a) |
| 02:01:34 | <Guest7370> | what is @unmtl? Is that a shorthand for generating some of the mtl stuff? |
| 02:02:19 | <abastro[m]> | I think it is a commandline program which unwraps the mtl transformer stacks. |
| 02:02:38 | <abastro[m]> | Transformers are defined as newtypes, so you could unwrap it back |
| 02:03:13 | <Guest7370> | Gotcha |
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| 02:04:10 | <Guest7370> | For the next week or so, I'm going to stick with the Env -> IO (Either AppError a) while I hack out this example to get my feet wet again, then I'll start looking at moving over to stacking things slowly. |
| 02:04:29 | <Guest7370> | I appreciate everyones help, many thanks +1 |
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| 02:05:04 | <abastro[m]> | No problem! |
| 02:05:32 | <Guest7370> | Also next time I come back, I will have figured out how to set an actual username on here and not a rando guest. |
| 02:06:04 | <Guest7370> | Again, first IRC experience, and went terminal ui because yolo? |
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| 02:45:05 | <lechner> | Hi, when can ghc generate a "package registration fille" please, and when not? |
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| 02:47:35 | <lechner> | Do the source have to come from Hackage? |
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| 03:00:22 | <phma> | I'm trying to map a sequence, instead of a list, through a function. |
| 03:00:47 | <phma> | parseChunkRjust :: Seq.Seq Char -> Maybe Word |
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| 03:01:07 | <phma> | Seq.map parseChunkRjust (Seq.fromList [Seq.fromList "56743821564",Seq.fromList "73821567"]) |
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| 03:01:31 | <phma> | Not in scope: ‘Seq.map’ |
| 03:01:41 | <phma> | What am I missing? |
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| 03:09:56 | <Zemyla> | phma: Just use fmap. |
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| 03:18:10 | <phma> | Zemyla: okay, now I got a sequence of Just numbers. I want to make Maybe a sequence of numbers, but if any of the Maybes in the sequence is Nothing, I want Nothing. |
| 03:18:30 | <phma> | Is that fmapM or something? |
| 03:18:48 | <Zemyla> | sequence. |
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| 03:19:06 | <Zemyla> | Or traverse. |
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| 03:21:41 | <Zemyla> | Yeah, traverse parseChunkRJust sequence will do it. |
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| 03:26:02 | <phma> | Thanks |
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| 03:47:00 | <abastro[m]> | I now wonder How does `map` arose in programming |
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| 03:50:44 | <abastro[m]> | And later how it is rediscovered as a variant of `fmap` |
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| 04:00:32 | <dsal> | I don't think `fmap` would've been called `fmap` if `map` weren't in the way. |
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| 05:23:22 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) () |
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| 05:26:11 | <abastro[m]> | Wait why is this message sent twice |
| 05:26:22 | <abastro[m]> | Oh it isn't |
| 05:26:39 | <abastro[m]> | Has `map` been popular for long time? |
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| 05:27:36 | <Axman6> | I don't know what that question reall means |
| 05:28:08 | <Axman6> | it was in the first standard for Haskell? |
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| 05:43:15 | <dolio> | It was around in 1958 at least. |
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| 06:21:13 | <tdammers> | it is kind of an obvious name, isn't it - you map one data structure to another, retaining structure and passing each element through a function |
| 06:21:31 | <tdammers> | "project" would also have made sense, but "map" seems pretty logical |
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| 06:50:37 | <abastro[m]> | Yep I see that `map` is reasonable |
| 06:50:40 | <abastro[m]> | I am asking about its origin. |
| 06:51:40 | <dolio> | In lisp it was mapcar, presumably because you're applying a mapping to the cars. |
| 06:52:18 | <dolio> | I don't know if McCarthy invented that name, though. |
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| 06:55:22 | <abastro[m]> | Oh, mapping to cars? |
| 06:55:35 | <abastro[m]> | Quite interesting |
| 06:56:03 | <abastro[m]> | Perhaps it could be said to be homomorphism or sth |
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| 07:20:28 | <lieven> | the Lisp 1.5 manual has MAPLIST instead of MAPCAR so the map part of the name was fairly early |
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| 07:25:38 | <abastro> | Haskell lang devs could have devised generalized `map` then.. |
| 07:25:51 | <abastro> | As maplist/mapcar thing implies it is specific one |
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| 07:43:49 | <lieven> | Common Lisp has a more general MAP that can change the return type |
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| 07:58:12 | <abastro> | Change the return type? |
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| 07:59:05 | <phma> | I've made GosperInteger a member of the Read class and verified by calling read with a string. It works as long as I specify the returrn type. |
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| 07:59:46 | <phma> | It takes strings like "45G" and returns a GosperInteger. |
| 08:01:10 | <phma> | But if I say "iAdd 45G 234G", where iAdd is of type GosperInteger -> GosperInteger -> GosperInteger, it says "Data constructor not in scope: G :: GosperInteger". |
| 08:03:28 | <lieven> | abastro: you can MAP over a vector and tell it to return a list for example |
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| 08:26:10 | <mzvonar> | Hi, I was doing exercises from the Haskell Book on Traversable, and when I run tests with checkers library, the tests got stuck on composition property and eventually overflows. It happens on multiple data types, but I'm attaching the simplest. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. Current checkers types differ from the ones presented in the book so |
| 08:26:11 | <mzvonar> | probably something in the checkers has changed too. Here I created a minimal reproduction case (Pair data type is fine, but Big gets stuck). Can you please help me? Thanks. https://replit.com/@mzvonar/checkers |
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| 08:31:46 | <Axman6> | mzvonar: can you point to some code that isn't working? |
| 08:32:25 | <Axman6> | phma: adding a Read instance doesn't change how the Haskell parser works, you would have to write iAdd (read "45G") (read "234G") |
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| 08:38:45 | <mzvonar> | Axman6 the code is working, but the traversable property from checkers library never finishes for the Big data type |
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| 08:53:47 | <Zemyla> | tThe puppet master! You're a puppet in a play, and I hold all the strings! |
| 08:53:47 | <Zemyla> | And cards, still. Got the cards in one hand, strings in the other. And I'm making you dance |
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| 09:09:00 | <anomal> | many of the IO examples online are isolated from the rest of a program and it's unclear in what context IO runs, how the runtime relates the instructions of the IO monad to the rest of the code you run purely. |
| 09:09:09 | <anomal> | Is there some outline of the workflow of the runtime here |
| 09:09:14 | <anomal> | so I can make a mental model of it |
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| 09:14:05 | <jackdk> | phma: read doesn't work like that - it's not a general Haskell parser |
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| 09:27:36 | <timCF> | Hello! If you were writing simple interactive one-page like web app, which Haskell web framework you will use today? I'm mostly thinking about Miso vs Shpadoinkle, but they both are using ghcjs, which state in not that clear right now. I'm not sure about it. Maybe there are better alternatives? |
| 09:27:50 | <phma> | so what does the REPL use, if not read? |
| 09:28:40 | <abastro[m]> | I think repl uses internal haskell parser |
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| 15:05:31 | <c_wraith> | anomal: IO is the entry point - usually a value named main. (there are compiler args to tell it to use something else) |
| 15:07:11 | <c_wraith> | anomal: so the model is that it executes whateverIO actions main consists of. evaluate whatever is necessary |
| 15:07:28 | <c_wraith> | err. it evaluates expressions as needed for those IO actions |
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| 15:34:10 | <Guest53> | Hi to all, |
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| 15:35:37 | <Guest53> | I would like to ask how i can get a transparent xmobar. I tryed setting alpha = 0, in the config file but nothing happens. Thanks |
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| 15:36:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | rust has a library called serde where i can transform for example string json <-> MyDataType and that transformation is automatically generated based on a simple annotation. does haskell have something like this? |
| 15:37:09 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so for example i might want to have MyVec2D :: Int Int |
| 15:37:27 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and i want something to automatically generate a String -> MyVec2D (the reverse i suppose comes from Show) |
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| 15:40:11 | <tomsmeding> | Guest53: try #xmonad |
| 15:40:30 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | that is to say i get both serialization and deserialization in rust and i am looking for this in haskell |
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| 15:41:17 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: are you looking for this? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.0.3.0/docs/Data-Aeson-TH.html |
| 15:42:00 | <Guest53> | Ok, thanks |
| 15:43:22 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | doesn't have to be json but yeah if it derives a serialization/deserialization routine then that could work |
| 15:43:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | uh requires templatehaskell,... i've seen some people say to stay away from templatehaskell...?? |
| 15:43:47 | <tomsmeding> | that derives instances for json (de)serialisation with the aeson types |
| 15:43:51 | <tomsmeding> | TH is fine |
| 15:44:03 | <tomsmeding> | it's kind of like a rust macro |
| 15:44:07 | <tomsmeding> | a proc-macro |
| 15:44:57 | <tomsmeding> | that does mean that GHC's dependency detection algorithm is less strong (which results in more recompilation of modules containing TH even if that's not necessary -- though people are working on improving this currently) |
| 15:45:29 | <tomsmeding> | and TH makes compilation slow, because you effectively do compilation twice (though not fully the first time), to compile the Haskell code in the splice to something that can be run |
| 15:45:40 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps you heard those things? |
| 15:47:28 | <maerwald[m]> | And breaks cross compilation? |
| 15:47:40 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | you overestimate my sophistication lol. i am trying to write my first "complete" program in haskell ... tictactoe |
| 15:48:01 | <tomsmeding> | ah lol |
| 15:48:23 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | can i make ghci watch a file or dir and automatically reload |
| 15:48:25 | <tomsmeding> | right what maerwald[m], it makes cross-compilation significantly more difficult |
| 15:48:31 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so i have a "live" terminal |
| 15:48:51 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: no, though there is HLS |
| 15:49:31 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: oh, if you're not looking for json specifically, what about Show and Read |
| 15:49:37 | <tomsmeding> | > read "4" :: Int |
| 15:49:39 | <lambdabot> | 4 |
| 15:49:52 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ah, Read might be right, but does it handle compound types? |
| 15:50:12 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | or more complex types that is |
| 15:50:13 | <tomsmeding> | @let data Food = Ham Int | Cheese Bool [Food] |
| 15:50:15 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 15:50:20 | <tomsmeding> | @let data Food = Ham Int | Cheese Bool [Food] deriving (Show, Read) -- sorry |
| 15:50:20 | <lambdabot> | /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:265:1: error: |
| 15:50:20 | <lambdabot> | Multiple declarations of ‘Food’ |
| 15:50:20 | <lambdabot> | Declared at: /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:262:1 |
| 15:50:25 | <tomsmeding> | @reset |
| 15:50:25 | <lambdabot> | Say again? |
| 15:50:29 | <tomsmeding> | ... |
| 15:50:33 | <dolio> | @undefine |
| 15:50:33 | <lambdabot> | Undefined. |
| 15:50:39 | <tomsmeding> | @let data Food = Ham Int | Cheese Bool [Food] deriving (Show, Read) |
| 15:50:40 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 15:50:50 | <tomsmeding> | > show (Cheese True [Ham 4, Ham 3]) |
| 15:50:51 | <lambdabot> | "Cheese True [Ham 4,Ham 3]" |
| 15:50:56 | <tomsmeding> | > read (show (Cheese True [Ham 4, Ham 3])) |
| 15:50:57 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse |
| 15:51:01 | <tomsmeding> | > read (show (Cheese True [Ham 4, Ham 3])) :: Food |
| 15:51:03 | <lambdabot> | Cheese True [Ham 4,Ham 3] |
| 15:51:10 | <tomsmeding> | there's also your first pitfall: |
| 15:51:11 | <tomsmeding> | :t read |
| 15:51:12 | <lambdabot> | Read a => String -> a |
| 15:51:30 | <tomsmeding> | you need to make sure the compiler knows what that 'a' is, because otherwise it's not going to be able to parse |
| 15:51:39 | <tomsmeding> | (also thanks dolio) |
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| 15:52:00 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: so yes it handles whatever :) |
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| 15:57:21 | <c_wraith> | fwiw, the closest thing we have to serde is Generic. it's not really intended for exactly the same use case, but it can work |
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| 15:57:50 | <tomsmeding> | (but not sure if one should start with Generic -- or TH, for that matter -- one one's first foray into Haskell) |
| 15:58:14 | <c_wraith> | no, but it's what lets things like aeson provide automatic instances |
| 15:58:14 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i will start with Read and go from there thanks :) |
| 16:00:25 | <c_wraith> | it's a lot less useful in Haskell, though, due to our propensity for putting functions inside data structures. there's just no way to serialize them (at least in normal cases). it's much less common to encounter that in rust, so you're a lot more likely to be able to serialize an arbitrary data structure |
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| 16:08:16 | <lechner> | Hi, Haddock is locally producing some local file references for MathJax that include the stray string "--hyperlink-source". Has anyone seen this before? Here is the diff http://paste.debian.net/1237615/ |
| 16:08:38 | <lechner> | Also good http://paste.debian.net/1237614/ and bad http://paste.debian.net/1237613/ |
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| 16:16:51 | <c_wraith> | that's an argument that should be passed to haddock. I guess it's getting passed to the mathjax renderer and it's interpreting it as part of the output file name |
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| 16:21:11 | <lechner> | c_wraith: Thanks! Where would I look for such a bug, please? |
| 16:21:47 | <c_wraith> | I'm not sure if that's a cabal bug or a haddock bug. I'd start with haddock, though |
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| 16:36:05 | <lechner> | c_wraith: thanks! |
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| 21:24:07 | <echoone> | Anyone familiar with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/io-streams-1.5.2.1/docs/System-IO-Streams-Process.html#v:runInteractiveProcess ? I'm wondering if I have to "close" the streams that I get from this function. But there is no close function for streams, so I am confused. |
| 21:29:31 | <monochrom> | I haven't used it either, but judging from the docs: |
| 21:30:11 | <monochrom> | 1. For OutputStream, you indicate "I'm done" with `write Nothing s`. |
| 21:30:30 | <monochrom> | 2. For InputStream, I guess you just chill out and let GC happen. |
| 21:31:16 | <echoone> | OK. My impression is that I should not even worry about it. |
| 21:32:07 | <echoone> | If I terminate the process, I suppose it will clean things up. |
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| 21:46:11 | <dmj`> | echoone: there is a `close` on both InputStream and OutputStream, its in base, under GHC.IO.Device.IODevice :: close a -> IO () typeclass |
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| 21:49:13 | <monochrom> | Oh! Missed those instances. Yeah, use that. |
| 21:51:24 | <echoone> | OK. Let's try that. |
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| 22:38:06 | <Henson> | hi everyone. I've got some X,Y image point locations I've put into a type called Point2D and I have a list of them, like [Point2D]. Say I want to add some type-based meta data on top of that. Say they're undistorted points from a certain camera. What's the right way to add this extra type-based "tags" to the data? Just use newtypes to have something like (Left_Camera (Undistorted [Point2D]))? |
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| 22:38:28 | <Henson> | working with these nested types is kludgy sometimes, so I use Lens to make reaching into and manipulating the "stacks" of data more easily. |
| 22:38:56 | <Henson> | but sometimes it's still really kludgy. Is this the right pattern to be using, or is there some other way I should/could be doing it that might be more natural to work with? |
| 22:39:18 | <Henson> | and require less wrapping/unwrapping of the data? Admittedly Lens helps out tremendously in this regard. |
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| 23:00:44 | <Cale> | Henson: Probably not newtypes, right? You'd be newtyping a pair, so there's no advantage over just using 'data' to declare the type. |
| 23:01:15 | <Cale> | Or, is there really no other information you're including about the situation |
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| 23:03:29 | <Cale> | If it really is purely type information, it's a good question to ask what properties of the code you're trying to guarantee by using the newtypes. Something like Left_Camera doesn't seem like the kind of thing I'd usually feel like encoding at the type level, but I don't really know your application. |
| 23:03:53 | <Henson> | Cale: well for the 2D point it's a data, but I'm wondering about the layers of type-based information on top, like the Undistorted or Camera_Left types, which essentially wrap the data with type-level information. For Undistorted I'm using "newtype Undistorted a = Undistorted { getUndistorted :: a }" |
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| 23:05:07 | <Henson> | Cale: for a function that takes two 2D points and uses stereo triangulation to turn that into a 3D point, I want to make it clear at the type level that they're undistorted points and that they belong to the respective camera, so that you can't pass a distorted point for the right camera in when you really should be passing a left camera undistorted point it. |
| 23:05:24 | <Cale> | That does seem fair enough |
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| 23:07:03 | <Cale> | So long as it doesn't amount to being applied like: stereoTriangulation (Left_Camera something) (Right_Camera somethingElse) where you could get it mixed up anyway. |
| 23:07:21 | <Henson> | Cale: I've just gotten myself into a situation where the layering of type information has gotten ungainly, possibly due to me not structuring it correctly. This is my first big Haskell project, and now I'm starting to see the value is "type engineering" where your choices in type layering is significant in terms of the ease with which you can work with these layered types. |
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| 23:07:42 | <Cale> | Yeah, it's always a tradeoff |
| 23:09:08 | <Henson> | Cale: ok. But layered data into newtypes seems to be the right thing to do? By defining lenses for the different type layers I can often reach down into the layered data to manipulate things without having to explicitly wrap and unwrap all of the data. |
| 23:09:19 | <Henson> | I've come to understand the value of the Lens library! |
| 23:10:00 | <Cale> | I don't use lens a lot unless I really need to abstract over a choice of lens, but it might have a role to play |
| 23:10:48 | <Cale> | If you're explicitly wrapping and unwrapping the data a lot, then there's a chance you're making mistakes doing that, and it weakens the argument for using the newtype in the first place |
| 23:11:08 | <Cale> | Ideally, for each newtype, you also have a lot of operations which act on that type |
| 23:11:18 | <Cale> | Or at least, enough operations |
| 23:11:22 | <Henson> | Cale: hmmm |
| 23:13:05 | <Cale> | Like, how do I know that something of type Undistorted a has not been distorted? If someone unwrapped the data, distorted the points somehow and re-applied the constructor, then it presumably breaks the guarantee we were trying to have there. |
| 23:14:39 | <Henson> | Cale: right. But there are other functions that are used to consume and produce these different layered types. So it's totally possible somebody could do that, and indeed within the functions that's often done, but the type signature of the functions is supposed to give you a framework to work with in which they all fit together. Cameras produce images. Object detectors produce distorted 2D... |
| 23:14:49 | <Cale> | Not that I really know what the tag means in your case, but perhaps there should only be an exposed way to unwrap Undistorted a values, and the only thing that can make them is something closer to the raw camera feed |
| 23:15:24 | <Henson> | points. Undistorters convert distorted 2D points to undistorted 2D points, 3d triangulators convert left and right pairs of 2D points into 3D points in a certain coordinate frame. Coordinate frame transformers convert from one frame to the other, etc. |
| 23:16:10 | <Cale> | hmm, okay |
| 23:18:15 | <Henson> | does that seem like a correct way to be using this type level meta data? |
| 23:18:29 | <Cale> | I think it actually seems pretty much fine |
| 23:19:12 | <Henson> | I'm essentially trying to force the programmer to do the right thing as well as be explicit about the inputs and outputs of the function. |
| 23:19:29 | <Cale> | I do feel like there's something more evidence-based that could be done about the left/right distinction |
| 23:20:04 | <Cale> | Like, maybe combining the data with the implied information about the relative camera position/orientation or something |
| 23:20:22 | <Cale> | But maybe that doesn't make sense in your case |
| 23:21:28 | <Cale> | (maybe it's also very costly, if that means you end up pushing around lots of references to what are effectively constants in your application) |
| 23:22:33 | <Henson> | Cale: I agree. There is a way to make it camera-side-agnostic by including the appropriate information, but I haven't done that in my case. |
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| 23:29:05 | <Henson> | Cale: thanks for letting me bounce those ideas off you! |
| 23:31:05 | <Cale> | btw, there may be options for using something like DataKinds and a phantom type parameter which is a list of tags or something, but then you end up in a situation where you're doing lots of type level computation on lists of tags, and that can be annoying in its own way. |
| 23:31:29 | <Cale> | It could get you down to one newtype data constructor at the term level though |
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| 23:32:23 | <Cale> | But, there's value in explicitly wrapping and unwrapping the tags, because it gives you a chance to think about what that tag means and whether the operation you're writing really satisfies the invariants |
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| 23:47:32 | <Henson> | Cale: thanks for the DataKinds suggestion. I don't think I've used that before, and after taking a quick look at the description, it seems like it's one of those extensions to use when you want to do complex type-level things. Not only do I not really understand how it works, but I'm trying to keep my program relatively free of those complex type-level abstractions to make it easier for... |
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| 23:47:44 | <Henson> | Cale: other programmers to grasp. |
| 23:48:56 | <Henson> | Cale: but if something like that could simplify what I'm doing, and is the "haskell way" of doing it, then I'd be interested in doing that. Learning Lens to make manipulation of nested types WAY easier to do was certainly worth it, and isn't that difficult to understand once you learn it. |
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| 23:50:02 | <Henson> | Cale: but I've encountered the advice of "don't use crazy type-level extensions unless you really need to". |
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| 23:55:08 | <Henson> | Cale: have you used Arrows before? Do you know what they're useful for? |
| 23:56:34 | <Henson> | Cale: I looked into them a while ago, and they seem to be a way of composing functions in ways that are more flexible and complex that currying and partial function application. |
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