Logs on 2022-04-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:45:55 | <energizer> | is there a segment of the haskell community that's against typeclasses? |
| 00:46:07 | <energizer> | (for one reason or another) |
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| 00:48:28 | <davean> | energizer: I doubt it is possible to actually program anything non-trivial in Haskell without being for typeclasses, and if they don't code non-trivial things what part of the community are they? The set of people who program much of anything and are against typeclasses is almost definately empty. |
| 00:49:24 | <davean> | There are some people against multiparameter typeclasses I think? Mostly because they're not fully specified. |
| 00:50:24 | <energizer> | i mean people who wish haskell didn't use typeclasses and used some other mechanism instead |
| 00:51:01 | <davean> | I understood that |
| 00:51:08 | <davean> | I answered in that light |
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| 00:51:37 | <davean> | You've got like a single option |
| 00:51:54 | <davean> | And we know why its horrible |
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| 00:57:51 | <davean> | Everything else you can do is either make everything concrete, which means no datastructures as complicated as Map, and then why are you using Haskell at all? It provides basicly nothing, or something basicly isomorphic to passing a dictionary, which is equivilent to typeclasses, except incoherent so you don't know if it works without tracing every path to every location in your code. |
| 00:58:43 | <davean> | Theres not much space here for options |
| 00:59:03 | → | lottaquestions joins (~nick@2607:fa49:5041:a200:e015:4a6a:8224:d2c6) |
| 00:59:29 | <davean> | You can do pretty small things like "typeclasses, but without return type polymorphism" but thats dumb because if you look at our type system we can just recover that with some extra finger wiggling |
| 00:59:45 | <abastro> | Yeah, never seen anyone who dislike typeclasses |
| 00:59:47 | <davean> | at which point you're just making a style claim |
| 01:00:11 | <abastro> | Well, I guess someone like evan(Elm creator) hated typeclasses.. but eh |
| 01:00:11 | <davean> | abastro: yah, like asking this question says a lot about not understanding what they are mathematicly I think |
| 01:00:41 | <hololeap> | energizer: elm people :) |
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| 01:01:37 | <davean> | hololeap: except even they implimented them, just as special cases, not a language feature |
| 01:01:59 | <abastro> | I also don't know what is typeclasses in mathematics tho |
| 01:02:01 | <davean> | thats sorta a debate about who should get access to type classes |
| 01:02:25 | <abastro> | Do you mean like, records denoting extra structures equipped on a set? |
| 01:03:09 | <davean> | abastro: well, importantly they're coherent |
| 01:05:20 | <abastro> | Coherent? |
| 01:05:51 | <abastro> | Clearly I slept through math formalism class I guess, as I don't know what coherence means here |
| 01:06:29 | <c_wraith> | it means they behave the same way in all contexts |
| 01:07:11 | <c_wraith> | Like, it doesn't depend on the context `a == b' always returns the same result for the same expressions a and b |
| 01:07:43 | <c_wraith> | If type classes could be overridden locally, that would no longer be true |
| 01:08:57 | <abastro> | Oh I thought you were talking about typeclasses in mathematics |
| 01:11:02 | <davean> | I mean they're not really different - type theory is a mathematics. |
| 01:11:30 | <abastro> | Yea type theory is a branch of mathematics |
| 01:11:37 | <davean> | right all you have in math is branches |
| 01:11:45 | <c_wraith> | math is a tree! |
| 01:11:47 | <davean> | and some functors between them :) |
| 01:12:22 | <davean> | the above discussion ports pretty trivial to several parts of mathematics. |
| 01:13:44 | <abastro> | Hmm, I wonder if `process` package is bundled with ghc installations. |
| 01:14:13 | <abastro> | I want sth which won't upgrade until ghc itself is reinstalled.. |
| 01:14:30 | <abastro> | How do I enforce this |
| 01:14:44 | <davean> | abastro: thats not how it works |
| 01:14:46 | <abastro> | Wait nvm, I guess I don't need to worry about it in this specific case |
| 01:14:48 | <davean> | You're wrong about your assumption |
| 01:14:54 | <abastro> | Which assumption? |
| 01:14:57 | <davean> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/packages.html process is in GHC's distruction set |
| 01:15:01 | <davean> | but that doesn't mean it doesn't get upgraded |
| 01:15:11 | <davean> | I've *often* had to upgrade packages that ship with GHC |
| 01:15:12 | <abastro> | I see |
| 01:15:23 | <davean> | and nixos FUCKED ME OVER by making your dumb, wrong assumption |
| 01:15:24 | <abastro> | Quite annoying when packages upgrade |
| 01:15:31 | <davean> | why? |
| 01:15:33 | <c_wraith> | There are only a few packages that are wired in, like ghc, template-haskell, base, and I'm probably missing a couple |
| 01:15:50 | <davean> | Why do you even notice at all when packages upgrade? |
| 01:15:55 | <abastro> | Well, many baseline packages end up duplicated |
| 01:16:04 | <davean> | So? |
| 01:16:04 | <abastro> | + It takes awful lot of time to upgrade those packages |
| 01:16:09 | <davean> | how? |
| 01:16:17 | <davean> | How does it take more than a couple seconds of CPU time? |
| 01:16:32 | <abastro> | By building those packages? |
| 01:16:43 | <davean> | Yes, which is a couple seconds of CPU once and its over |
| 01:16:49 | <abastro> | Uh |
| 01:16:55 | <abastro> | For me it's like solid 10 minutes |
| 01:17:37 | <davean> | ... I can build a very large stack of everything from scratch in 10 minutes, what are you building this on? |
| 01:18:02 | <davean> | And it doesn't ever build stuff again until it changes |
| 01:18:10 | <abastro> | I mean, for me updating something like `cabal-install` (by updated hackage) takes 10 minutes |
| 01:18:11 | <davean> | that would still be a single 10 minutes the one time if changes. |
| 01:18:50 | <abastro> | IDK, somehow it duplicates the baseline dependencies as well. |
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| 01:19:08 | <davean> | I mean, if it depends on updates of them |
| 01:19:28 | <davean> | I just deleted ~/.cabal, and I'll run cabal install cabal-install |
| 01:19:50 | <c_wraith> | I use ghcup to install the cabal binary these days |
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| 01:19:55 | <abastro> | package A depends on package B, package A updates, new copy of package B installed |
| 01:20:06 | <abastro> | Oh, the cabal-install thing was a demonstration, and I mean the case of depending on them |
| 01:20:08 | <davean> | abastro: one single time |
| 01:20:16 | <abastro> | Well I should have rather said, `Cabal` |
| 01:20:20 | <davean> | That happens a single time, and then never again until either A or B upgrades |
| 01:20:49 | <abastro> | I mean, whenever package A upgrades, new copy of the same version of package B is installed |
| 01:20:57 | <davean> | Yes, one single time |
| 01:21:25 | <abastro> | And quite often, one of the packages upgrade. |
| 01:21:33 | <abastro> | Like once a week |
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| 01:21:52 | <abastro> | And that takes 10 minutes |
| 01:22:15 | <davean> | The impressive part here for me is it takes 10 minutes, but also stuff low down in the stack defiantely doesn't update once a week |
| 01:22:39 | <abastro> | I mean, stuff higher up in the stack updates |
| 01:22:44 | <davean> | Most of them don't upgrade once a year. |
| 01:22:57 | <abastro> | And then, all its dependency has additional copy of the same version |
| 01:23:08 | <abastro> | Let's say, package B is updated from 1.0 to 1.1 |
| 01:23:18 | <abastro> | package B depends on package A version 1.0 |
| 01:23:24 | <c_wraith> | I still don't understand why you're updating packages all the time. |
| 01:23:41 | <abastro> | Then, when package B updates from 1.0 to 1.1, it installs a copy of package A version 1.0 |
| 01:23:46 | <abastro> | So there is 2 copies of package A version 1.0 |
| 01:23:53 | <davean> | Incorrect |
| 01:23:56 | <abastro> | Even though package A is not updated |
| 01:23:57 | <davean> | YOu're just wrong |
| 01:24:00 | <abastro> | Well, that happened to me |
| 01:24:04 | <davean> | No, it doesn't |
| 01:24:06 | <abastro> | I saw it. |
| 01:24:07 | <davean> | You're jsut wrong |
| 01:24:13 | <c_wraith> | it can happen if A inlines stuff from B |
| 01:24:13 | <davean> | No, you are wrong about what you saw |
| 01:24:44 | <abastro> | Yep, I guess package A inlined some stuffs of B and that portion changed. |
| 01:24:53 | <abastro> | Somehow it happens quite frequently, really. |
| 01:25:46 | <c_wraith> | but the thing is... while those versions of A have the same version number, they are *not* compatible |
| 01:25:56 | <c_wraith> | Or at least, cabal can't assume they are |
| 01:26:09 | <c_wraith> | so it has to manage them separately |
| 01:26:13 | <davean> | c_wraith: No, V depends on A |
| 01:26:13 | <abastro> | Indeed. |
| 01:26:16 | <davean> | c_wraith: No, B depends on A |
| 01:26:30 | <c_wraith> | davean: that's not what the premise said |
| 01:26:48 | <davean> | "01:23:18 abastro package B depends on package A version 1.0" |
| 01:26:58 | <davean> | No, that is what he stated here |
| 01:27:18 | <c_wraith> | hmm, that's incompatible with what it says above. |
| 01:27:25 | <davean> | So B updating can not cause an rebuild of A |
| 01:27:27 | <abastro> | Hm yea I could be confusing something here, but at least if something updates, something else has to update as well |
| 01:27:28 | <davean> | It *can not* |
| 01:27:44 | <davean> | Only an update of A can cause a rebuild of B |
| 01:27:49 | <abastro> | I guess things underneath were updated then. |
| 01:28:00 | <c_wraith> | davean: yet above, it says A depends on B. I think you have to assume one of those was a misstatement, and in the direction that makes sense |
| 01:28:39 | <davean> | c_wraith: well the second scenario is entirely incopatible with the first, so I assumed he started talkign about a different scenario |
| 01:28:39 | <abastro> | Sorry, this thing is confusing |
| 01:28:59 | <abastro> | I confused I guess |
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| 01:29:15 | <c_wraith> | abastro: the one thing you haven't addressed is why you update packages constantly. Are they security releases? |
| 01:29:22 | <yushyin> | Maybe not updating the index as often as you do is an option? ^^ |
| 01:29:29 | <abastro> | ^ |
| 01:29:30 | <c_wraith> | do they have changes you want to take advantage of? |
| 01:29:35 | <abastro> | Well, I update the package index |
| 01:29:39 | <c_wraith> | or are you just creating churn for yourself? |
| 01:29:39 | <davean> | I mean even if he does, theres not a ton that changes low down in the stack |
| 01:29:43 | <abastro> | cabal then chooses to update it. |
| 01:29:57 | <c_wraith> | cabal doesn't update stuff unless you run cabal clean or something |
| 01:29:58 | <yushyin> | you can also pin the index |
| 01:30:00 | <abastro> | My experience was that there were many changes in the lower level |
| 01:30:04 | <davean> | its damn rare for one of the distributed packages to get updated *with* GHC, never mind between releases |
| 01:30:16 | <c_wraith> | if you just use cabal build, it doesn't care that that the index changed |
| 01:30:25 | <c_wraith> | it just uses the existing plan |
| 01:30:36 | <davean> | Most low level packages don't see a release every 2 years |
| 01:30:37 | <abastro> | Strange, for me `cabal build` cares that index changed. |
| 01:30:58 | <sclv> | only if you cabal configure again |
| 01:31:01 | <sclv> | it caches |
| 01:31:04 | <abastro> | Hmmmmm |
| 01:31:15 | <sclv> | it caches the build plan unless you reconfigure |
| 01:31:17 | <abastro> | Now I don't understand what phenomenon I am getting |
| 01:31:18 | <sclv> | or clean |
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| 01:31:35 | <abastro> | Because it tries to update hard to the newest version unless I do `cabal freeze` |
| 01:31:52 | <davean> | extensible-exceptions last released in 2012, filepath has a release in late 2021 but the one before that is 2018 ... |
| 01:31:54 | <abastro> | 5 copies of `aeson-2.0.3.0` is irritating tbh |
| 01:32:00 | <sclv> | if you change the cabal file it forces a reconfigure btw |
| 01:32:04 | <davean> | Like the low level packages *litterly* go years between releases |
| 01:32:06 | <abastro> | Oh |
| 01:32:15 | <abastro> | Now I see. |
| 01:32:21 | <abastro> | I changed the cabal file without knowing tht |
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| 01:32:31 | <sclv> | and always calculates a buld plan from latest |
| 01:32:42 | <abastro> | So whenever I change cabal file, I should run cabal freeze to fix the build plan. I guess |
| 01:32:42 | <sclv> | but you can fix an index snapshot to avoid this |
| 01:32:59 | <davean> | abastro: Even with a reconfigure it'll only rebuild if something is different. Other than build time is there something that upsets you about having multiple copies of things like aeson? |
| 01:33:03 | <sclv> | or just let cabal do what it does since the behavior is good |
| 01:33:08 | <abastro> | Yea, but since sometimes I want newer stuffs, I guess I should go with cabal freeze |
| 01:33:13 | <davean> | (aeson is VERY high up the tree, so it'll rebuild a lot) |
| 01:33:17 | <sclv> | that default behavior was picked for a reason |
| 01:33:39 | <sclv> | it ensures your locally developed packages can take advantage of the latest bugfixes |
| 01:33:54 | <abastro> | Multiple copy of things are irritating because, you know, disk space |
| 01:33:59 | <sclv> | and remain building against the bleeding edge |
| 01:34:18 | <abastro> | Currently my cabal store is 5GB but I am afraid it will easily grow to 50GB+ |
| 01:34:25 | <davean> | abastro: It won't |
| 01:34:32 | <davean> | 5GiB is HUGE for it |
| 01:34:39 | <abastro> | I experienced such cabal store growth |
| 01:34:49 | <davean> | And every time you do a compiler upgrade the old stuff becomes irrelivent |
| 01:34:50 | <sclv> | all my disk space for haskell stuff pales in comparison to one modestly graphiclly intensive game from 10 years ago |
| 01:34:56 | <abastro> | Well also other ppl in this chat said similar things about huge cabal store |
| 01:35:27 | <sclv> | or like ten episodes of a podcast that doesn’t compress its stream well |
| 01:35:27 | <yushyin> | if disk space is your concern, haskell might not be the right language for you :P |
| 01:35:34 | <davean> | You can remove your old compilers when you're done using them |
| 01:35:41 | <abastro> | I did |
| 01:35:52 | <abastro> | ghc-9.2.2 cabal store contains 5.3GB of contents. |
| 01:37:00 | <davean> | Hum, as far as I can tell, process is the fastest updated distributed library and it averages like once per quarter. |
| 01:37:06 | <abastro> | I mean.. I think 50GB~100GB range could surely be concerning |
| 01:37:30 | <abastro> | Nvm about the `process` part |
| 01:37:35 | <davean> | abastro: And I mean if that ever happens I would ... do something impressive |
| 01:37:47 | <abastro> | OH right, some dependency of `lens` also frequently updates |
| 01:38:04 | <davean> | I *think* I could *make* that happen inside a GHC lifetime if I tried *really* hard |
| 01:38:13 | <davean> | I'm not sure it is even possible though |
| 01:38:16 | <yushyin> | i have multiple ghcs and a cabal store of 8GB, also 10GB ~/.ghcup |
| 01:38:21 | <davean> | (For a single GHC version) |
| 01:38:28 | <abastro> | Interesting |
| 01:38:38 | <abastro> | Perhaps xmonad stuffs are quite huge? |
| 01:38:43 | <davean> | No |
| 01:38:47 | <abastro> | Hmmm |
| 01:38:58 | <abastro> | How do I have 5GB cabal store, I wonder |
| 01:39:14 | <davean> | I mean 5GiB is possible |
| 01:39:26 | <abastro> | In a week |
| 01:39:30 | <davean> | but 50GiB is an order of magnitude higher and it gets VERY hard to keep making it larger |
| 01:39:49 | <abastro> | I see, I mean before in 8.10.7, I had 20~30GB |
| 01:39:58 | <davean> | oh I mean, getting to like 2GiB is what I get just setting up - there s a lot of packages. |
| 01:40:00 | <abastro> | 50GB wouldn't take long from there I think |
| 01:40:07 | <justsomeguy> | I don't even use many Haskell packages (just core, QuickCheck, and HSpec), but my ~/.cabal/package directory is 781.84MiB. ~/.stack is 22.7GiB. |
| 01:40:23 | <davean> | justsomeguy: yes, but how many GHC versions? |
| 01:40:25 | <abastro> | Yep, wait even stack suffers from the problem |
| 01:40:33 | <justsomeguy> | davean: Maybe two? |
| 01:40:35 | <sclv> | stack suffers more! |
| 01:40:41 | <abastro> | More? |
| 01:40:43 | <davean> | yah, stack stuffers much more |
| 01:40:50 | <abastro> | I thought pinning versions would have lessened the problem |
| 01:41:27 | <justsomeguy> | Ohh, nevermind, I forgot that I have a test project that pulls the latest nightly GHC. |
| 01:41:33 | <justsomeguy> | No wonder. |
| 01:41:33 | <davean> | justsomeguy: .. right |
| 01:41:56 | <abastro> | Btw I like how `lens` package gets updated every other week or so, some dependeny of it is clearly updated often |
| 01:41:57 | <davean> | and building one project can reasonable build 2GiB |
| 01:42:00 | <abastro> | I don't know which |
| 01:42:03 | <davean> | but its very hard to keep growing |
| 01:42:16 | <davean> | abastro: well right, lens is basicly the top of the tree |
| 01:42:26 | <abastro> | Okay, let's see if it does not grow from 5GB |
| 01:42:39 | <abastro> | Yea, lens is annoying |
| 01:42:42 | justsomeguy | goes off somewhere to delete his nightly stackage resolver snapshots. |
| 01:42:43 | <davean> | abastro: I mean do clean out old compilers as you move on from them |
| 01:42:58 | <abastro> | I even deleted 8.10.7 |
| 01:43:00 | <davean> | Thats where the real growth is, that grows linearly |
| 01:43:13 | <abastro> | And that's barely "old", you know, in terms of what is really old |
| 01:43:14 | <davean> | but inside a compiler its growth is sublinear |
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| 01:43:53 | <abastro> | 11 copies of gi-cairo-render lol |
| 01:44:08 | <abastro> | I thought I could do nothing in a week |
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| 01:47:12 | <davean> | abastro: so you have two concerns; disk usage and build time |
| 01:47:23 | <abastro> | Yep. |
| 01:47:31 | <davean> | disk usage I don't think is worth worrying about, since it should be sublinear |
| 01:47:37 | <davean> | build time, thats entirely different |
| 01:47:51 | <abastro> | Well okay, to be frank, disk usage worry was from using old laptop a year ago |
| 01:47:57 | <davean> | that should be as it is, I'm not sure why it bothers you but thats the core problem as I see it |
| 01:48:11 | <abastro> | Had like 64GB on that 5-6 year old laptop |
| 01:48:52 | <abastro> | Is the build time shorter than 10 minutes for you? |
| 01:49:18 | <davean> | I mean yes, I can build lens and a bunch of things it doesn't include in way less than 10 minutes |
| 01:49:28 | <davean> | from a brand new system |
| 01:49:46 | <davean> | but I mostly build on a desktop |
| 01:49:57 | <davean> | So you know, possibly massively better performance |
| 01:50:03 | <abastro> | How good is your desktop end? |
| 01:50:31 | <davean> | pretty bad, its a 1950X, so you know old and slow |
| 01:50:50 | <davean> | a modern consumer chip is easly 50% faster |
| 01:51:26 | <davean> | Just performance is never an issue for me so I've not considered ugprading |
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| 01:53:15 | <abastro> | Oh, I see |
| 01:53:27 | <abastro> | Interesting how newer laptops still have less cores than old desktops |
| 01:53:33 | <abastro> | Mine has 8 CPU cores |
| 01:53:43 | <abastro> | amd-ryzen-9-4900hs |
| 01:53:46 | <davean> | I mean its an old high end desktop |
| 01:53:55 | <abastro> | Oh |
| 01:53:56 | <davean> | but a modern gaming CPU has 16 cores |
| 01:54:06 | <davean> | and mugh higher clock, and faster per clock |
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| 01:54:16 | <abastro> | Yea, with this, it would take at least twice slower |
| 01:54:28 | <abastro> | Because IIRC cabal build can use all the cores |
| 01:54:32 | <davean> | laptops are also thermally limited unlike most desktops |
| 01:54:40 | <davean> | cabal build can *often* use all the cores |
| 01:54:50 | <davean> | but only by having multiple packages to build |
| 01:54:58 | <davean> | not when it doesn't have seperate packages |
| 01:55:11 | <abastro> | Yep, but I often have multiple packages to build |
| 01:55:12 | <davean> | and only when that build isn' contradicted by dependencies |
| 01:55:25 | <davean> | it can only build it in accordance with a topological sort |
| 01:55:26 | <abastro> | + This is better than most other languages I think.. at least I think.. |
| 01:55:33 | <davean> | Yes, well it could be better |
| 01:55:43 | <davean> | we could build in parallel inside a package - GHC supports that |
| 01:55:57 | <davean> | what we lack is the ability to allocate cores to GHC dynamically |
| 01:56:09 | <davean> | the communication between GHC is considered but currently non-existant |
| 01:56:39 | <abastro> | It says that Ryzen 1950x is launched at 2017 |
| 01:56:42 | <davean> | which is part of what makes something like a 1950X *so bad* for Haskell |
| 01:56:45 | <abastro> | That's.. hardly old |
| 01:57:10 | <davean> | Its past long term deprciation |
| 01:57:17 | <davean> | its well past any standard replacement cycle |
| 01:57:20 | <davean> | almost double most |
| 01:57:22 | <abastro> | Uhm |
| 01:57:23 | <abastro> | I mean |
| 01:57:38 | <abastro> | I've seen many ppl not changing their end for like 10 years |
| 01:57:44 | <abastro> | Like cars, you know |
| 01:58:01 | <davean> | I mean that can *only* occure in the last 10 years |
| 01:58:02 | <abastro> | So I thought I should not change mine for 7~8 years |
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| 01:58:29 | <davean> | between 2000 and 2010 that would be completely non-viable |
| 01:58:37 | <abastro> | Oh, why? |
| 01:59:04 | <davean> | compare the best CPU in 2000 to the worst released in 2010 |
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| 01:59:39 | <davean> | a computer from half way through there would have basicily had no chance in *any* terms of using software from 2010 |
| 01:59:53 | <davean> | the systems of 2000 couldn't put in enough RAM to even load them |
| 02:00:09 | <abastro> | Wow |
| 02:00:36 | <abastro> | I was too young at 2000 to see that |
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| 02:00:45 | <davean> | You happen to have only considered the slowest period of developement in computers in history, because Intel had no competition |
| 02:00:55 | <abastro> | Interesting, basically we reached some kind of plateau in terms of computer performance |
| 02:01:05 | <abastro> | Wait wha |
| 02:01:05 | <davean> | and almost all the change since 2010 to 2020 was in 2018-2020 |
| 02:01:11 | <abastro> | Is it because Intel had no competition? |
| 02:01:36 | <abastro> | I thought it was genuinely because of semiconductor dead-end |
| 02:01:40 | <davean> | Well they stopped updating stuff, AMD came out with a competative chip, and they started again :-p |
| 02:01:45 | <abastro> | (Can't keep going smaller) |
| 02:01:52 | <davean> | No, there was no semiconductor dead end in the first half of that |
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| 02:01:55 | <abastro> | Lul, intel |
| 02:02:02 | <davean> | and we've kept going smaller |
| 02:02:12 | <davean> | There *was* a slow period in there |
| 02:02:19 | <davean> | and there does need to be an end |
| 02:02:25 | <abastro> | So the plateau in semiconductor is rather in the future than the past |
| 02:02:27 | <davean> | but the slowness was also when stuff was getting faster again |
| 02:02:34 | <davean> | er |
| 02:02:44 | <davean> | to be clear, the slowness in getting smaller was when CPUs were getting faster again |
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| 02:02:58 | <abastro> | These delayed-delayed delays are fun |
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| 02:07:41 | <davean> | So the Pentium 4 Willamette launched at the *end* of 2000, a quick look suggests if you got the largest RAM you could get on the market you could have, for several thousand dollars then (and multiply that a bit for modern currency), you COULD have gotten 2GiB into the system, and it looks like you probably can't buy a phone with a core as slow as its single core was. |
| 02:07:52 | <davean> | In practice the RAM to put 2GiB into that wasn't actually even on the market. |
| 02:08:19 | <davean> | RAM was in MiB not GiB in practice. |
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| 02:08:51 | <davean> | Checking old builds, people bragged about 512MiB for the entire system |
| 02:09:58 | <davean> | Looking at what was on sale for prebuilts they're offering like 128MiB often :) |
| 02:10:40 | <davean> | Yes, modern systems might have more *cache* than those systems had RAM |
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| 02:13:03 | <monochrom> | In 486 days I bragged about having 16MB RAM and comfortably running OS/2. >:) |
| 02:13:15 | <abastro> | Wow |
| 02:13:36 | <monochrom> | (Most people settled for 4MB and ran DOS 6, maybe once in a while Windows 3.) |
| 02:13:41 | <davean> | My computer has RAM and CPUs comparable to a supercomputer I used in 2003 |
| 02:13:51 | <davean> | *a supercomputer* |
| 02:13:59 | <davean> | *it cost several million dollars* |
| 02:14:16 | <monochrom> | Now let's flash back to the floppy diskette days... |
| 02:14:47 | <davean> | abastro: anyway, your laptop CPU core is a bit faster than my desktop CPU core, but I expect your laptop gets hot within like 5-10 seconds and slows down below it per-core |
| 02:15:16 | <davean> | I have twice the cores, but that only matters some of the time, I'm probably winning on thermals |
| 02:15:16 | <monochrom> | Yeah laptop is more susceptible to thermal throttling. |
| 02:15:30 | <monochrom> | But I do have a laptop cooling pad. :) |
| 02:15:54 | <davean> | monochrom: the 486 only stopped being sold in 2007 ;) |
| 02:16:15 | <davean> | abastro: I expect, by the end of next year, to buy a computer twice as fast as my current one |
| 02:16:33 | <davean> | abastro: around 2004 you could probably get a computer twice as fast every year |
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| 02:17:41 | <abastro> | Twice as fast?? |
| 02:17:41 | <davean> | Ok, the best Intel CPU you could get in 2010 MIGHT have been the i5 Clarkdale, not sure |
| 02:17:43 | <abastro> | Oh no |
| 02:17:59 | <davean> | it had 2 cores |
| 02:18:11 | <monochrom> | MLton was like "beware that it needs 128MB, it may be too big for your system" :) |
| 02:18:29 | <davean> | Core i5-680 was released in April 2010 |
| 02:18:47 | <monochrom> | Today that's the average size of a smartphone app. |
| 02:18:52 | <davean> | So, how much faster is *my* 5 year old desktop vs. a 2010 system? |
| 02:19:15 | <davean> | well, each of my RAM sticks is the size of the *max system memory* of that CPU |
| 02:20:04 | <hololeap> | same here which strangely gets me 12GB due to two of the slots being different (desktop comp from ~2011) |
| 02:21:17 | <davean> | and it looks like my CPU is something like .... 20 times faster? |
| 02:22:24 | <hololeap> | probably depends on the operations and if they're optimized by some new processor feature |
| 02:22:31 | <davean> | hololeap: definately |
| 02:22:38 | <davean> | thats assuming you can use my extra cores |
| 02:22:55 | <monochrom> | I'm added to Haskell and other modern high-level languages. Going back to those slower and smaller computers is no longer an option. >:) Although, maybe I could get hugs to run on DOS... |
| 02:23:00 | <hololeap> | yeah |
| 02:23:06 | <monochrom> | s/added/addicted/ |
| 02:23:12 | <davean> | and just using your standard spec benchmarks |
| 02:24:00 | <davean> | If you compare to a Ryzen 9 5950X the comparison gets more insane |
| 02:24:05 | <davean> | and this is in the *slow* period |
| 02:24:07 | <abastro[m]> | When will "semiconductor dead end" hit hard |
| 02:24:15 | <davean> | abastro[m]: unclear. |
| 02:24:26 | <abastro[m]> | Like, it seems like smaller than 1nm is extremely hard |
| 02:24:30 | <davean> | abastro[m]: So what REALLY happened between 2010 and now is that games went GPU based |
| 02:24:52 | <hololeap> | abastro[m]: you have to understand that there is $$$$$$$$ in keeping up moore's law |
| 02:24:56 | <davean> | abastro[m]: no, we already build *some* stuff smaller than 1nm, we'll almost definately go below 1nm |
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| 02:25:39 | <davean> | abastro[m]: *gamers* stopped having to upgrade CPUs, just GPUs, and entire classes of games came into popularity that didn't even need more GPU |
| 02:25:43 | <hololeap> | if moore's law wasn't a thing, the majority of people might start thinking about just keeping their old hardware around |
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| 02:26:04 | <davean> | hololeap: well, also theres just good economic benefits from more computation |
| 02:26:08 | <davean> | computation is enabling |
| 02:26:12 | <davean> | most CPUs don't go to consumers |
| 02:26:21 | <davean> | most CPUs are bought by corporations these days |
| 02:26:28 | <davean> | well, uh, sorry, leaving out smartphones |
| 02:26:29 | <hololeap> | right, good point, but my point still stands |
| 02:26:56 | <davean> | hololeap: right, sure, I'm just saying even if people kept all their old equipment we'd still have a lot of money in going smaller |
| 02:27:16 | <davean> | The replacement just ramps it up even further |
| 02:27:32 | <hololeap> | they have an economic incentive to make sure each new gen is way faster than the last, which is going to seriously push innovation |
| 02:27:39 | <davean> | abastro[m]: In no way is it clear where we'll top out of what is *practical* |
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| 02:27:56 | <davean> | hololeap: right, but even without the consumer space we have a lot of money for it |
| 02:28:11 | <davean> | because we need a LOT more compute to stop making money by having massively more of it |
| 02:28:15 | <hololeap> | money that wouldn't be spent unless the jump in performance was enough... |
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| 02:28:44 | <davean> | hololeap: Right, but performance makes people a LOT of money still, in terms of servers |
| 02:29:02 | <davean> | we're massively compute limited still |
| 02:29:19 | <davean> | sure they'd buy the current gens, and just run more of them - they are |
| 02:29:28 | <davean> | but theres a lot of money to be made in offering the faster one |
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| 02:29:47 | <hololeap> | I still think that if they don't hit some benchmark every year they have a serious risk of everyone (including corporations) thinking twice about upgrading, which makes them pull some crazy stuff out of a hat, because these are seriously rich coporations |
| 02:30:15 | <davean> | hololeap: I agree other than the server space |
| 02:30:40 | <davean> | the server space will still need to buy hundreds of thousands of CPUs, per company, yearly just to keep up with current demand |
| 02:30:45 | <hololeap> | yeah I don't actually understand the economics, but I think I understand it well enough to get that :) |
| 02:31:02 | <monochrom> | But we already have the history that AMD was not a serious competitor therefore Intel also stagnated but still got as much purchases. |
| 02:31:03 | <davean> | and they have things they could sell if they had more compute |
| 02:31:28 | <davean> | monochrom: yep! though, note that was bad for the companies and they threw a LOT of money in working around it |
| 02:31:37 | <hololeap> | davean: that's a fair point |
| 02:31:40 | <davean> | look at the Power initiative, and the ARM cpu vendors they funded |
| 02:32:01 | <davean> | monochrom: Corporations were scared shitless of that stagnation and poured *billions* into working around Intel's stagnation |
| 02:32:56 | <davean> | So they *gamble* they could get ahead of that stagnation was worth tens of billions between them |
| 02:33:09 | <davean> | which tells you just how much that increase in compute is worth to them |
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| 02:33:25 | <hololeap> | more compute = more $$$$, but when it doesn't we blame the technology |
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| 02:34:15 | <davean> | monochrom: I see the argument "they were fine while Intel stagnated" a lot, but in truth they started emptying warchests because of it. Which rather tells the opposite story at least competatively |
| 02:34:45 | <hololeap> | computing is so full of hype and hyperbole it's laughable |
| 02:34:45 | <davean> | Considering the amounts they spent its easy to estimate they thought taht slowdown was costing them potentially in the hundreds of billions |
| 02:35:07 | <davean> | So it depends on what you consider "fine" |
| 02:37:00 | <davean> | is "if someone else solves this and we don't, we probably go out of business" fine? |
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| 02:37:29 | <hololeap> | who said "fine"? |
| 02:38:28 | <davean> | hololeap: no one, but monochrom said "Intel also stagnated but still got as much purchases" |
| 02:39:06 | <davean> | But Google, AWS, etc all started massively funding new competitors to Intel |
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| 02:39:21 | <davean> | so its not really true that was a stable situation |
| 02:39:30 | <davean> | people were desperately trying to find a life raft |
| 02:39:37 | <davean> | that was VERY clearly a short term truth |
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| 02:41:02 | <hololeap> | well, they have the economic impetus to pull the rabbit out of the hat |
| 02:41:49 | <hololeap> | "we have 999 specialists, but we can afford the 1000th one" or something like that, until it works... |
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| 02:43:05 | <davean> | Theres something like 10B USD just in looking for a fix to "this one particular computing problem is slow so can't enter new markets" |
| 02:43:09 | <davean> | for one given problem |
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| 02:43:54 | <davean> | Computers are currently too slow for the problems we have today, from a server perspective :) |
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| 02:45:13 | <hololeap> | maybe we should redistribute the funds to making people healthier and more educated, instead of spending it on more cpus |
| 02:45:33 | <davean> | You've sorta propose a contradictory goal there to a large degree |
| 02:45:41 | <davean> | a lot of that is making people healthier at least |
| 02:46:05 | <davean> | Do you ahve any idea how much compute things like medical imaging takes? |
| 02:46:06 | <hololeap> | I would expect to see a strong upward trend in life expentancy at least |
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| 02:46:20 | <davean> | and drug discovery |
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| 02:46:22 | <davean> | etyc |
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| 02:46:50 | <davean> | hololeap: medical stuff isn't even the main driver of life expectance IIRC :/ |
| 02:47:10 | <davean> | Though I can't recall the analysises ATM |
| 02:47:18 | <davean> | You said healthier, not life expectancy |
| 02:47:46 | <hololeap> | that's a good point. we don't want to spend the last 30 years of our lives in chemical labotomy |
| 02:48:18 | <davean> | perhaps you're interested in the metric "quality adjusted years of life" |
| 02:48:53 | <davean> | But when you get to this stuff, I'm not sure we can directly apply money to society |
| 02:49:06 | <davean> | Money isn't *that* fungible |
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| 03:20:22 | <Lycurgus> | currently life style/environment followed by genetics are still the main determiners of life expectancy, with the latter pulling ahead of the former |
| 03:20:31 | <Lycurgus> | in the developed countries at least |
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| 03:26:01 | <Lycurgus> | and like 10 out of 11 or better super centenarians are female |
| 03:27:44 | <Lycurgus> | 80% of centenarians apparently |
| 03:28:15 | <Lycurgus> | patriarchy 0, roar 1 |
| 03:29:26 | <Lycurgus> | JC's record will prolly be passed by a japanese woman by mid century or so |
| 03:30:55 | <Lycurgus> | by which time nemowhosits and nak can eat crow in the devolved RF |
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| 03:50:42 | <dsal> | /join haskell |
| 03:51:15 | <abastro[m]> | Quite funny how Intel stagnated and watched how other companies struggle |
| 03:51:24 | <abastro[m]> | Like wh, monopoly power go brrrrr |
| 03:51:41 | <abastro[m]> | Basically "Deal with it" corporate edition |
| 03:54:33 | <abastro[m]> | Btw I think making ppl healthier is actually against the direction money wants |
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| 05:49:49 | <Digit> | short money, maybe. racing to the bottom might not be the only "option" though. |
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| 08:33:52 | <abastro> | Does packages rebuild when even `allow-newer` part for unrelated package is updated? |
| 08:34:41 | <abastro> | Wait, I guess what's the problem. The dependency in between somewhere cannot support newest version I guess.. |
| 08:34:55 | <abastro> | Which requires the package to be rebuilt, and any layers lower are built again as well |
| 08:34:56 | <abastro> | MEH |
| 08:35:11 | <abastro> | So that takes 20 minutes+ |
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| 08:58:15 | <albet70> | are there some famous sequences like fibonacci? |
| 08:58:56 | <albet70> | fib 22 is 17711, is a huge number |
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| 09:18:45 | <pavonia> | Prime numbers are the most famous, I guess |
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| 09:27:04 | <zzz> | albet70: try #math |
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| 09:38:56 | <abastro[m]> | Btw for any a and b, |
| 09:38:56 | <abastro[m]> | `seq a b = go where go = a : b : zipWith (+) go (tail go)` |
| 09:38:56 | <abastro[m]> | forms a sequence |
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| 09:40:42 | <pavonia> | Generalized Fibonacci sequences? |
| 09:40:57 | <abastro[m]> | Yea |
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| 09:42:04 | <abastro[m]> | Then there are boring sequences like `iterate (+n) 0`, `iterate (*n) 1` |
| 09:42:13 | <abastro[m]> | Which are still important anyway IIRC |
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| 09:43:27 | <abastro[m]> | > iterate (2 ^) 0 |
| 09:43:29 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,2,4,16,65536,2003529930406846464979072351560255750447825475569751419265... |
| 09:44:02 | <abastro[m]> | That also had a name iirc |
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| 09:46:41 | <abastro[m]> | Oh, Tetration |
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| 10:12:09 | <jackdk> | albet70: you may find some useful names in the online encyclopaedia of integer sequences (OEIS) |
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| 10:58:26 | <ManofLetters[m]> | hi! I need help: how to best express partial application of a type function if the order of its arguments is wrong? Currently I'm using... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/8eabe24135f9de2938dc8f06f690b789c5dc8658) |
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| 10:59:51 | <geekosaur> | there is type level Flip somewhere |
| 11:00:17 | <geekosaur> | that said, partial application at type level is somewhat problematic |
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| 11:17:53 | <boxscape_> | :t let x x = x in x x |
| 11:17:54 | <lambdabot> | p -> p |
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| 11:37:38 | <hpc> | > let x x = x in x x "x" |
| 11:37:40 | <lambdabot> | "x" |
| 11:37:42 | <hpc> | :D |
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| 11:48:24 | <abastro> | How do I set `-haddock` ghc flag as default to use on all projects? |
| 11:48:46 | AlexNoo_ | is now known as AlexNoo |
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| 11:54:04 | <geekosaur> | if you're using cabal, there'sa specific flag for it in ~/.cabal/config ("documentation: true" iirc) |
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| 11:54:59 | <ManofLetters[m]> | geekosaur: thank you; it's https://hackage.haskell.org/package/type-combinators-0.2.4.3/docs/Data-Type-Combinator.html#t:Flip; it should be clearer in some contexts, but unfortunately it requires just as many coercions (being a newtype) |
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| 12:02:48 | <abastro[m]> | documentation: true? I see, thank you |
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| 12:08:04 | <abastro> | geekosaur: `documentation: True` recompiles everything even though I had `-haddock` compiler flag on. |
| 12:08:30 | <abastro> | Why is this? |
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| 12:08:48 | <geekosaur> | it includes additional flags like --hyperlink-source |
| 12:09:21 | <geekosaur> | beyoond that I think you would have to ask sclv, but I suspect people requested it because they were annoyed they had to rebuild everything manually after changing it |
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| 12:10:19 | <abastro> | Oh, I see |
| 12:10:39 | <abastro> | Perhaps I would purge once more? Ah no, it would be fine to have one more copy... *cries* |
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| 12:12:49 | <geekosaur> | monochrom has a tool for maintaining / cleaning cabal stores. https://github.com/treblacy/cabalgc |
| 12:13:25 | <abastro> | Yep, I mean I tried it, but last time it failed to delete handful of duplicated copies. |
| 12:13:47 | <geekosaur> | (I have an extra 2 copies of everything currently because I gave my testing sandbox its own .ghcup and .cabal, and accidentally built everything for 8.10.7 initially :) |
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| 12:15:27 | <geekosaur> | mm, and a few more copies becuase I rebuilt everything with -g |
| 12:15:40 | <geekosaur> | copies copies everywhere :) |
| 12:15:52 | <abastro> | :o |
| 12:16:05 | <abastro> | Anyway, I am now back at 5GB store |
| 12:16:27 | <abastro> | Guess I won't mind :P |
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| 12:53:51 | <abastro> | Guess some dependency around conduit is overly constrained by some higher-up package |
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| 15:10:54 | <pagnol> | is there a straightforward [Either e a] -> Either [e] [a]? |
| 15:11:19 | <boxscape_> | @hoogle partitionEithers |
| 15:11:19 | <lambdabot> | Data.Either partitionEithers :: [Either a b] -> ([a], [b]) |
| 15:11:19 | <lambdabot> | Data.Strict.Either partitionEithers :: [Either a b] -> ([a], [b]) |
| 15:11:19 | <lambdabot> | Protolude partitionEithers :: () => [Either a b] -> ([a], [b]) |
| 15:11:31 | <boxscape_> | that's probably what you want |
| 15:11:50 | <pagnol> | ah yeah that's good, thanks |
| 15:12:27 | <pagnol> | at first I thought sequence, but that gives Either e [a] apparently |
| 15:13:18 | <boxscape_> | yeah, since `Either e` is the Functor here, sequence can't change that |
| 15:14:17 | <pagnol> | I see |
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| 15:16:25 | <boxscape_> | pagnol if your goal is to collect a number of errors, you might also find Data.Either.Validation useful, from the either package |
| 15:17:06 | <niemand> | SCC pragmas don't affect optimization, do they? |
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| 16:07:05 | ChanServ | sets mode +o litharge |
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| 16:18:13 | <jacks2> | is there some naming convention that one should follow for having top-level variables, especially if they are mutable references? |
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| 17:49:10 | <slaydr> | is the tuple - (,) - part of standard Prelude? |
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| 17:58:52 | <slaydr> | i would like to redefine the tuple for an exercise. Is there a way to remove the existing data definition? |
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| 18:01:22 | <dsal> | slaydr: You mean you want the specific syntax? A tuple is just a generic product type, but it's not a library feature. |
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| 18:02:02 | <dsal> | It's easy to make your own thing that's similar to tuple, but with more normal syntax. |
| 18:03:26 | <slaydr> | thanks. I did make a FlippedTuple that does what I want as a Functor instance, but I just wondered if I could actual use the (,) syntax someway...temporarily |
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| 18:18:18 | <dsal> | I don't know if there's a language extension to treat tuples differently. |
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| 18:19:05 | <dsal> | It might be nice to be able to avoid default instances, but also, for that exact case, I tend to just use a bifunctor. |
| 18:19:08 | <dsal> | :t first |
| 18:19:09 | <lambdabot> | Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) |
| 18:19:17 | <dsal> | ugh. Not that first. |
| 18:19:18 | <dsal> | @hoogle first |
| 18:19:19 | <lambdabot> | Control.Arrow first :: Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) |
| 18:19:19 | <lambdabot> | Data.Bifunctor first :: Bifunctor p => (a -> b) -> p a c -> p b c |
| 18:19:19 | <lambdabot> | Text.PrettyPrint.Annotated.HughesPJ first :: Doc a -> Doc a -> Doc a |
| 18:19:48 | <dsal> | I guess they're similar, but I use the bifunctor one with other bifunctors. |
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| 18:24:07 | <zzz> | can anyone explain why the second version of this subsets function consistently performs marginally better than the first one? https://paste.jrvieira.com/1650219787366 |
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| 18:26:06 | <dsal> | zzz: You should be able to find the answer in the core. |
| 18:27:36 | <zzz> | that's a little too advanced for me |
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| 18:31:15 | <dsal> | I understand why you might feel that way, but that's where the answer is. :) If you want to know, then learning to read the core would show you the answer both here and in your next performance question. |
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| 19:26:06 | <statusbot> | Status update: Many haskell.org websites are down due to an issue with our host. We are investigating. -- http://status.haskell.org/pages/incident/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/625c69cdfcbdd204d4df5603 |
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| 19:30:21 | <Athas> | I have a strange issue issue with 'cabal haddock --haddock-for-hackage'. I get: |
| 19:30:26 | <Athas> | haddock: internal error: /home/athas/.cabal/store/ghc-9.0.2/Diff-0.4.1-04df2c01c87cfe54ff31f35bb1a20b246d6dcd854bf79ab8919d50738b1a79d3/share/doc/html/doc-index.json: openBinaryFile: does not exist (No such file or directory) |
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| 19:30:48 | <Athas> | I suspect Diff fails merely because it is alphabetically first. None of the packages have doc-index.json files. |
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| 19:38:22 | <koz> | Is Hoogle down? |
| 19:38:36 | <koz> | Oh never mind, should have read above. |
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| 22:14:14 | <jerry99> | @hoogle (b -> m c) -> a -> m b) -> a -> m c |
| 22:14:14 | <lambdabot> | package base |
| 22:14:15 | <lambdabot> | package bytestring |
| 22:14:15 | <lambdabot> | package containers |
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| 22:14:56 | <jerry99> | is there something like this? I might have gotten that type wrong . for functions returning monadic value |
| 22:15:07 | <jerry99> | :t (.) |
| 22:15:09 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c |
| 22:15:11 | <geekosaur> | you missed a paren so it misparsed it |
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| 22:15:22 | <jerry99> | ah |
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| 22:15:32 | <jerry99> | @hoogle (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c |
| 22:15:33 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad (<=<) :: Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c |
| 22:15:33 | <lambdabot> | System.Directory.Internal.Prelude (<=<) :: Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c |
| 22:15:33 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Compat (<=<) :: Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c |
| 22:15:54 | <jerry99> | :t (>=>) |
| 22:15:55 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c |
| 22:15:58 | <jerry99> | neat |
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| 22:20:41 | <jerry99> | so this works for (\x -> f =<< g x), but and what if I have something like this? (\x -> f <$> g x)? |
| 22:21:45 | <jerry99> | this worked but I'm not sure it is an improvement. ((pure . f) <=< g) |
| 22:22:27 | <jerry99> | @pl (\x -> f <$> g x) |
| 22:22:27 | <lambdabot> | (f <$>) . g |
| 22:22:40 | <jerry99> | oh lol |
| 22:23:07 | <dolio> | But use `fmap f` of course. |
| 22:23:34 | <dolio> | Sectioning (<$>) (on the left) is silly. |
| 22:23:40 | <jerry99> | yeah |
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| 22:25:19 | <jerry99> | too much? |
| 22:25:21 | <jerry99> | hex2ip = fmap (intercalate ".") . mapM (fmap show . readAsHex) . chunksOf 2 |
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| 22:30:51 | <dolio> | I think it's all right. |
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| 22:32:58 | <dolio> | Some people dislike that sort of thing more than I do, though. |
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| 22:41:36 | <RegularTetragon> | Is haskell.org/hackage/hoogle down for anyone else? |
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| 22:43:28 | <dolio> | hackage is up, but haskell.org seems down. |
| 22:44:18 | <geekosaur> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2022-April/020658.html |
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| 22:44:57 | <geekosaur> | they're working on it, from what I've seen elsewhere |
| 22:45:10 | <RegularTetragon> | Hmm gotcha |
| 22:45:10 | <hpc> | maybe it's hosted on atlassian's servers :D |
| 22:45:19 | <RegularTetragon> | Ohh dang is Atlassian down? |
| 22:45:21 | <RegularTetragon> | I didn't notice |
| 22:46:07 | <RegularTetragon> | So I'm trying to install haskell-language-server rn which is kinda hard without having ghcup |
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| 22:46:17 | <RegularTetragon> | I'm trying to do it through stack now, but I'm not sure which stack.yaml file to use |
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| 22:48:52 | <RegularTetragon> | https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/installation.html#installation-from-source is the guide I'm following, and it just says to run, in my case `stack install --yaml stack-9.0.2.yaml haskell-language-server` |
| 22:49:04 | <RegularTetragon> | ofc I don't have a stack-9.0.2-yaml so |
| 22:49:13 | <RegularTetragon> | Oh derp, I probably need to actually *download* the source |
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| 22:57:06 | <RegularTetragon> | Yeah it's building now I'm just dumb lol |
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| 23:26:29 | <jerry99> | Stackage Nightly 2022-04-16 (ghc-9.2.2) <- that is the version with Record Dot Syntax, isn't it? any reason why I shouldn't use it? only care about compiling for linux and windows |
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| 23:28:53 | <sm> | 9.2.2 is pretty good now, I would use it if you can |
| 23:29:28 | <jerry99> | no major issues on windows? |
| 23:30:11 | <sm> | there probably are some, but they might not affect you |
| 23:30:59 | <sm> | the issue tracker should have the latest |
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| 23:37:19 | <geekosaur> | the only windows issues I'm aware of have always been there |
| 23:38:11 | <geekosaur> | and the nightly's only problem is it's likely to be missing some stuff that's in the ltses that hasn't been ported over to 9.2.2 yet |
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| 23:46:49 | <jerry99> | neat.. I'll give it a try |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-04-17.