Logs on 2022-04-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:02 | rsify[m] | is now known as rsify |
| 00:00:21 | <Axman6> | Deleted a post with reason "goats" |
| 00:00:28 | <geekosaur> | deddit |
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| 00:05:03 | <Axman6> | Ha, they even have their own self trolling sub: https://freenode.net/n/pissnet/hot |
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| 00:27:10 | <janus> | can libera.chat can be bigger than freenode ever was? then, was it so bad freenode went crazy? |
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| 00:35:32 | <sm> | of course it can, and yes it was bad for eg consuming a lot of time and energy, but maybe libera and foss communities have had some useful cleanup, for one |
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| 00:44:18 | <sm> | though actually, with matrix etc, it might not reach that size again |
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| 00:49:34 | <abastro[m]> | Matrix could be bridged right? |
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| 00:51:56 | <sm> | yup, I'm speaking to you over a bridge |
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| 00:53:03 | AndrewYu | is now known as Andrew |
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| 00:56:24 | <sclv> | if you think that matrix is better than irc, buddy ive got a bridge to sell you |
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| 00:56:55 | <abastro[m]> | XD |
| 00:58:59 | <sm> | it's better in lots of ways. Not all |
| 00:59:30 | <sm> | nice that we have at least two great alternatives to proprietary chat |
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| 01:06:06 | <abastro> | To put '.' on the end of the comment sentence or not, that is the question(.) |
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| 01:07:55 | <sm> | Indeed! And, to use correct grammar, punctuation and capitalisation at all times ? The folks who do this impress me. |
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| 01:32:13 | <abastro> | Exactly! |
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| 03:57:08 | <jerry99> | hmm, freenode still exists, I thought it died. same channels too |
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| 04:04:14 | <Axman6> | it "exists" but last I saw had nearly no users at all |
| 04:04:48 | <jerry99> | just idlers from what I'm seeing |
| 04:06:22 | <EvanR> | freenode, a classical existence |
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| 04:12:03 | <sm> | a cautionary tale |
| 04:12:31 | <sm> | a monument to hubris and sloppy governance |
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| 04:13:37 | sm | imagines a buried city in the desert |
| 04:13:53 | <Axman6> | The doublespeak that was going on from... I've forgotten his name... at the time was astounding |
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| 04:15:17 | <Axman6> | the stuff he's put on irc.com now is just as bad |
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| 04:35:16 | <zyklotomic> | apologies if my google-fu isn't good enough, is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/random-1.2.1/docs/System-Random.html#v:mkStdGen determinstic across platforms? |
| 04:36:33 | <Axman6> | According to the source it's just mkStdGen = StdGen . SM.mkSMGen . fromIntegral |
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| 04:37:17 | <Axman6> | which uses https://hackage.haskell.org/package/splitmix-0.1.0.4/docs/System-Random-SplitMix.html#v:mkSMGen |
| 04:37:25 | <Axman6> | "Preferred way to deterministically construct SMGen." |
| 04:37:37 | <zyklotomic> | ah yup, i'm on https://hackage.haskell.org/package/splitmix too |
| 04:38:09 | <zyklotomic> | i see, thank you so much for confirming |
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| 08:23:07 | <ggVGc> | EvanR: I'm expecting to be on IRC for life :) Also, I'm expecting to write Makefiles for life... |
| 08:23:13 | <ggVGc> | not all of those things are good things |
| 08:23:30 | <juri_> | ggVGc: I compile haskell with a Makefile. ;) |
| 08:25:20 | <ggVGc> | as in, you call ghc directly? Sounds cumbersome |
| 08:25:25 | <ggVGc> | Why do you need to do that? |
| 08:25:53 | <abastro> | Thought I could use `Makefile` to call cabal as well |
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| 08:26:03 | <abastro> | Guess that is impossible? |
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| 08:27:02 | <ggVGc> | I mean, you can use make to call anything, as makefiles can just be used as "task runners". But that's not really using make for what it is |
| 08:27:14 | <ggVGc> | People abuse make as a task runner all the time |
| 08:27:30 | <ggVGc> | if you call cabal from a makefile, then cabal is still the build system |
| 08:30:20 | <abastro> | Ah I misinterpreted that part |
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| 08:37:42 | <juri_> | ggVGc: I call cabal. |
| 08:38:24 | <juri_> | which is still painful. i grumble about it, and write dumb make stuff to work around cabal's duplicate information requirements. |
| 08:40:14 | <juri_> | https://github.com/Haskell-Things/HSlice/blob/master/Makefile , if one wants to stare. |
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| 08:53:15 | abastro | <del>being dumb & writes Haskell script for this</del> |
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| 08:59:41 | <Hecate> | .2 |
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| 10:49:31 | <abastro[m]> | What could I use to read a file alike stock `Read` instance reads? |
| 10:50:14 | <abastro[m]> | The stock Read class is quite cumbersome (No error messages, constrained to String), but its format is beautiful |
| 10:50:42 | <abastro[m]> | So I'd like to know how. |
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| 11:46:38 | <razetime> | is haskell matchmaker being hosted online somewhere? |
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| 14:22:02 | <juri_> | hey, how do i get my quickcheck tests of pure code to parallelize across multiple cores? -j, it and +RTS -N is doing nothing. |
| 14:22:56 | <mastarija> | Can maybe someone take a quick look at my type derivation tree for a simple program? I'm not sure I'm passing extended context correctly. |
| 14:22:59 | <mastarija> | https://pastebin.com/e4f7SvEh |
| 14:23:06 | <geekosaur> | wouldn't you have to use `par`? |
| 14:23:56 | <juri_> | geekosaur: i was hoping they would come up with N random value sets, then call N copies of my code. |
| 14:24:21 | <geekosaur> | I think QC is not smart enough to do that |
| 14:25:18 | <mastarija> | The inference rules in question : https://imagebin.ca/v/6ePRnUrxveXy |
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| 14:45:00 | <slack1256> | Has anyone used the FFI to call function that should be run on a realtime scheduler? |
| 14:45:37 | <merijn> | No, but depending on the details of what you mean, that's either easy or impossible :p |
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| 14:47:39 | <slack1256> | I did a C program to read output from a digital scale chip (HX711). When reading bit-for-bit I got to respect some timings. Each reading is no longer that 100 micro sec. |
| 14:48:33 | <slack1256> | I want to integrate that on a larger haskell program, I though about using the FFI. Do you see this as difficult? I can always "fork and pipe" to get the result back. |
| 14:48:39 | <merijn> | slack1256: I'm pretty sure the POSIX realtime extensions are on a per-thread level, no? |
| 14:49:18 | <merijn> | slack1256: You can always just fire up a new POSIX threat from Haskell and set things up there (or call a C function that sets up the pthread correctly) |
| 14:49:52 | <merijn> | slack1256: To be pedantic: You can never *fork* and pipe, creating a new subprocess and pipe is reasonable, though |
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| 14:51:24 | <slack1256> | merijn: I think you are right, realtime scheduling seems to be process oriented. Having it at thread level would lead to priority inversion. |
| 14:51:56 | <merijn> | slack1256: OS level scheduling happens at the thread level |
| 14:52:30 | <merijn> | Even if GHC's runtime/threading supported realtime (it doesn't), the OS could randomly suspend your thread and you'd miss the deadline |
| 14:52:37 | <c_wraith> | merijn: "You can always just fire up a new POSIX threat from Haskell" I'm not a huge fan of POSIX either, but that seems excessive. :P |
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| 14:53:07 | <merijn> | posix realtime extensions need OS support to guarantee realtime scheduling behaviour and I'm pretty sure that can be done per thread |
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| 15:19:47 | <shapr> | I had someone ask me yesterday why there's a Data.OldList |
| 15:20:09 | <shapr> | my first guess was that it's from before Foldable was a thing, where the functions were specialized to just [] |
| 15:20:15 | <shapr> | does anyone have more info? |
| 15:21:28 | <lortabac> | shapr: where did you find Data.OldList? I don't see it in the docs |
| 15:21:52 | <lortabac> | do you mean GHC.OldList? |
| 15:22:09 | <shapr> | aha, This legacy module provides access to the list-specialised operations of Data.List. |
| 15:22:12 | <shapr> | yes, that one |
| 15:22:16 | <shapr> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/GHC-OldList.html |
| 15:23:41 | <lortabac> | yes, if I remember correctly it's the old Data.List |
| 15:24:12 | <shapr> | thanks |
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| 15:26:58 | <abastro[m]> | I wonder why they changed functions of Data.List to be polymorphic.. |
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| 15:28:21 | <lyxia> | One could argue having name conflicts when you import both Data.List and Data.Foldable is not very nice. |
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| 15:30:56 | <abastro[m]> | Hmm |
| 15:31:36 | <abastro[m]> | Doesn't container libraries go that route tho? |
| 15:31:53 | <abastro[m]> | Prioritizing qualified imports |
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| 15:42:55 | <lyxia> | Sure. Hindsight is also 20/20. |
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| 17:02:25 | <geekosaur> | polymorphic Data.List came along with Foldable/Traversable |
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| 17:02:46 | <geekosaur> | since many of its functions are now methods of one or the other |
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| 17:03:23 | <geekosaur> | the original was saved as GHC.OldList to provide the method implementations for lists |
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| 17:09:52 | <dmj`> | is there a way to query the RTS to see if there are exactly 0 forked threads |
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| 17:47:14 | <Zemyla> | How long do I have to wait to get a pull request taken? |
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| 17:47:46 | <geekosaur> | depends on the repo |
| 17:48:09 | <geekosaur> | and how overloaded the maintainers are, or if they're e.g. at work and can't look at it until evening, or etc. |
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| 17:52:45 | <janus> | Zemyla: you can file a package takeover request if they aren't responsive after a few months |
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| 20:29:38 | <shapr> | hpc: oh, I just saw your yawneda joke, ha! |
| 20:31:14 | <janus> | @yowneda |
| 20:31:14 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 20:55:37 | <avpx> | I'm trying to make a program that accepts an arbitrary number of command-line arguments (think like tar, ls, or other utilities that can take many files on the command line): |
| 20:55:56 | <avpx> | ./myprogram --verbose --someotheroption file1 file2 |
| 20:56:45 | <avpx> | I'm unclear how to do it in optparse-applicative. I can see how to get a (Parser String) for one argument using strArgument |
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| 20:57:42 | <avpx> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/J3ApjwyT |
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| 20:59:08 | <avpx> | One thought I had was to make a Parser [String] by chaining together an infinite number of Parser Strings. But I'm kind of worried that will make something infinite loop e.g. when printing --help |
| 20:59:52 | <geekosaur> | did youu look at argument parsers? |
| 21:00:04 | <geekosaur> | looks like they're intended for that use case |
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| 21:00:48 | <avpx> | You mean this one? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-applicative-0.17.0.0/docs/Options-Applicative.html#v:argument |
| 21:01:25 | <avpx> | Yeah I could see how to build a parser for *one* argument using that |
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| 21:02:51 | <geekosaur> | "To accept an arbitrary number of arguments, combine the argument builder with either the many or some combinator" fromthe README |
| 21:03:02 | <avpx> | Oh thannk you! |
| 21:03:10 | <geekosaur> | (remember, some is 1 or more, many is 0 or more) |
| 21:04:04 | <monochrom> | Yeah I used `some (strArgument ...)` |
| 21:04:13 | <avpx> | Interesting, so under the hood it basically is "chaining together an arbitrary number of/Kleene star of strArguments" |
| 21:04:17 | <geekosaur> | and you probably want strArgument unless you're doing special processing duringt parsing |
| 21:04:24 | <monochrom> | Actually `some (strArgument (metavar "FILES" <> help "files to be tested"))` to be exact. |
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| 21:05:14 | <monochrom> | Although, it has been a few years, not sure whether it works under the latest version. |
| 21:06:10 | <avpx> | It works perfectly. Thanks folks! |
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| 21:13:41 | <hpc> | shapr: :D |
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| 21:35:50 | <energizer> | does this function have a common name? `foo f g a b c = g (f a b) (f b c)` |
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| 21:37:50 | <energizer> | like `foo (<) (&&) 1 2 3` is $$ 1 < 2 < 3 $$ |
| 21:39:27 | <dolio> | I don't think so. |
| 21:40:40 | <energizer> | what is a concise way of doing comparison chaining? |
| 21:41:17 | <Rembane> | energizer: Monoids! |
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| 21:42:18 | <monochrom> | How does Monoid help? |
| 21:43:06 | <energizer> | is there a shorter way than (a < b) && (b < c) ? |
| 21:43:29 | <energizer> | perhaps using the fact that b is shared or that < is shared (or both) |
| 21:43:35 | <geekosaur> | not without writing it yourself, I think |
| 21:44:03 | <geekosaur> | conceivably Monoid could have been used to do it, but it got used for something more general instead |
| 21:44:04 | <Rembane> | monochrom: Not at all, I mixed 'em up. :D |
| 21:44:34 | <Rembane> | A fold perhaps, but for four variables it's not too useful. |
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| 21:48:59 | <geekosaur> | fold would only work if we had an Icon-like comparison operator setup (which would presumably be Ord a => Either () a) |
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| 21:49:54 | <geekosaur> | mm, more generally Either Ordering a |
| 21:50:38 | <energizer> | what about by applying id and flip to (<) |
| 21:51:34 | <monochrom> | You mean id < flip ? |
| 21:52:07 | <monochrom> | Ugh the vagueness of this discussion is too high for me. |
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| 21:52:47 | <Rembane> | This is not very elegant but could work: f x = all (uncurry (<)) $ zip xs $ tail xs |
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| 21:55:40 | <geekosaur> | I think at this point I just write a bespoke inRange function |
| 21:55:56 | <geekosaur> | rather than try to get tricky with operators |
| 21:56:15 | <geekosaur> | come to think of it, there should already be one in Data.Ix |
| 21:56:21 | <hpc> | :t on |
| 21:56:21 | <geekosaur> | @hoogle inRange |
| 21:56:22 | <lambdabot> | Data.Ix inRange :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Bool |
| 21:56:22 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Arr inRange :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Bool |
| 21:56:22 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Ix inRange :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Bool |
| 21:56:22 | <lambdabot> | (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c |
| 21:56:38 | <hpc> | :t over |
| 21:56:40 | <lambdabot> | ASetter s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t |
| 21:56:47 | <hpc> | hmm, on is almost it |
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| 22:09:37 | <abastro[m]> | Actual range datatype would be great |
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| 22:10:17 | <abastro[m]> | Which can act as foldable |
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| 22:39:38 | <Guest27> | If I have a do-block of the form |
| 22:39:39 | <Guest27> | ``` |
| 22:39:39 | <Guest27> | a <- ma |
| 22:39:40 | <Guest27> | b <- f a |
| 22:39:41 | <Guest27> | someBigOperation b |
| 22:39:41 | <Guest27> | ``` |
| 22:39:41 | <Guest27> | Is this a memory leak? Is a reference to `a` being held when it isn't needed anymore? |
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| 22:42:45 | <geekosaur> | the compiler should see it isn't needed any more |
| 22:44:17 | <geekosaur> | I wouldn't be surprised to see there be no reference, in fact: that could easily compile down to |
| 22:44:34 | <geekosaur> | @. pl undo do { a <- ma; b <- f a; someBigOperation b } |
| 22:44:35 | <lambdabot> | someBigOperation =<< f =<< ma |
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| 22:46:22 | <Guest27> | geekosaur Thanks. If no optimizations were applied would that still be true? I'm unsure how to reason about reference lifetimes in Haskell in general |
| 22:46:52 | <geekosaur> | it should still be true, I think |
| 22:47:11 | <geekosaur> | things are held in scope by actual references, not just bindings |
| 22:47:32 | <geekosaur> | like avg xs = sum xs / length xs holds xs because it's used twice |
| 22:47:47 | <geekosaur> | but just having xs be there unused would not count as a reference |
| 22:48:00 | <geekosaur> | it's not a "variable" that has space allocated for it or etc. |
| 22:48:26 | <Guest27> | Thanks, that's a great explanation |
| 22:48:34 | <geekosaur> | (well, with the right coercions so that typechecks) |
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| 22:54:59 | <Guest91> | I am a systems administrator. I wish to install the latest set of Haskell tools -- a custom list -- centrally on my servers. I have so far found no way to do this; everything wants to install in my home directory. I specifically do not want anything installed in ~/.ghc or ~/.cabal, as my goal at the end of this is 'rm -rf ~/.ghc ~/.cabal' and |
| 22:55:00 | <Guest91> | have everything I install still present -- libraries, dependencies, documentation -- in a central directory somewhere else. Is there documentation anywhere on how to do this? |
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| 22:56:18 | <geekosaur> | maerwald? ^^ |
| 22:57:13 | <geekosaur> | ghcup has some options that can make it work globally, and cabal install has a strongly disrecommended --global flag. the problem with --global is it pretty much locks you into the exact versions of libraries you have installed globally |
| 22:58:15 | <Guest91> | This is for a class being taught; lock-in is desirable, as it makes consistent grading much easier. |
| 22:58:19 | <sclv> | you can install ghc itself globally, and cabal the executable globally |
| 22:58:55 | <sclv> | you can then cabal v1-install —global individual libs. However i really urge you not to |
| 22:59:20 | <Guest91> | I've tried the --global flag in various flavors. It keeps thinking it has everything installed in my home directory and only installs the new thing in the place I've specified with --prefix --installdir and --libdir. It's also so far barfed on trying to install ghc there. |
| 22:59:26 | <sclv> | Just install the tools globally and let cabal and ghc manage per user lib envs — thats how things are designed to worj |
| 22:59:28 | <sclv> | Work |
| 23:00:11 | <Guest91> | Per-user library environments are exactly the problem I'm trying to avoid. Makes grading difficult when the instructor has no ready way to see what version the student has grabbed. Everyone should be using the central libraries, nothing else. |
| 23:00:39 | <sclv> | you can say they must specify their deps in a cabal file |
| 23:01:22 | <sclv> | to install ghc globally dont use ghcup, use the installer directly from ghchq |
| 23:01:34 | <sclv> | or just use a distro package manager |
| 23:01:46 | <Guest91> | Distro version is too old, so installer it is. |
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| 23:02:03 | <sm> | you could force them to use stack with a specific resolver and no extra-deps |
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| 23:02:52 | <Guest91> | Instructor has specifically told me to use cabal, not stack. Last I tried building stack, it would not play at all with cabal, but that was probably 3-4 years ago. Have things improved since then, that I can install both? |
| 23:02:58 | <sclv> | or just give a skeleton project with a cabal file with pinned deps and tell them they can’t alter those deps |
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| 23:03:47 | <exarkun> | Guest91: stack uses cabal, so depending on what you mean, they play quite well together. |
| 23:04:01 | <sm> | you could also set up your own hackage server I guess and force them to use that. (Sounds like a lot of effort) |
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| 23:04:40 | <Guest91> | 'cabal install --global [umpty flags] stack' blew up in multiple ways I could not fix at the time. Haven't tried this round, as the whole --global thing I left myself notes on from last time is no longer working. |
| 23:04:54 | <geekosaur> | both of them use the same mechanism to whack ghc over the head and make it use the right librariesneither stack nor cabal can see the other's sandboxed libraries. this is irrelevant if you'reinstalling everything in the global db though |
| 23:05:14 | <geekosaur> | whoops |
| 23:05:28 | <geekosaur> | neither stack nor cabal can see the other's sandboxed libraries. this is irrelevant if you'reinstalling everything in the global db though |
| 23:06:09 | <Guest91> | Is using the global db going to involve cabal and stack stepping on each other as I try to get a central install working? |
| 23:06:14 | <geekosaur> | and anything you did a few years ago with cabal install now needs to be cabal v1-install |
| 23:06:16 | <sm> | installing stack with cabal would be a waste of effort, there are many easier ways |
| 23:06:38 | <geekosaur> | (and I don't think stack can do global installs at all) |
| 23:06:47 | <monochrom> | ghcup can get you cabal or stack or both. |
| 23:06:55 | <Guest91> | I'm pretty sure the last time I invoked 'cabal install' in earnest was in 2018. |
| 23:06:59 | <sclv> | you're getting too much conflicting advice here from everyone. but i think stack is a red herring |
| 23:07:04 | <monochrom> | But there is no longer any --global |
| 23:07:22 | <sclv> | the first step is a global ghc -- do that by installing ghc from ghchq |
| 23:07:36 | <sclv> | second, get a cabal executable and place it in the global /bin |
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| 23:07:40 | <sclv> | finally, worry about the libs |
| 23:07:53 | <Guest91> | Got it. Will try that; many thanks. |
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| 23:08:11 | <sm> | well, it's an interesting problem with many solutions, none of them easy |
| 23:08:37 | <sclv> | vis a vis the libs you can either "cabal v1-install --global LIBNAME" _or_ my preferred way would be to give every student a template cabal project with the allowed libs pinned and just tell them "don't alter em" |
| 23:08:45 | <Guest91> | This is why I take notes. But my notes are no good, which was leading me to getting a flat spot on my forehead. |
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| 23:09:16 | <sclv> | a lot has changed in the last few years, so it requires thinking through the goals again based on the current state of tools |
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| 23:09:37 | <sm> | haskell notes decay in about six months :) |
| 23:10:15 | <Guest91> | ...and these last worked in July 2018. Well decayed by now. |
| 23:10:55 | <Guest91> | OK, off to run the steps sclv listed. Thanks! |
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| 23:11:23 | <sm> | I would suggest an amendment, start with ghcup. Why wouldn't you |
| 23:12:57 | <Guest91> | I already tried ghcup. It put ghc in my home directory along with all the other tools. I then tried using the cabal that came with to 'cabal install --global [umpty path flags] ghc', which failed with a version conflict on the first dependency it tried. |
| 23:13:22 | <Guest91> | Unfortunately, the specific error is out of my scrollback, so I'd have to rebuild that whole sequence to reproduce it. |
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| 23:14:01 | <sm> | Guest91: ah right, you don't want things installed in $HOME |
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| 23:14:08 | <Guest91> | Not even a little bit. |
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| 23:14:42 | <sm> | cabal install-ing ghc would be crazy, unless you are really intent on building everything from source ? |
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| 23:15:28 | <Guest91> | That's certainly how I've done it in the past. Using the distro elderly ghc to bootstrap my way up to latest, then grabbing a cabal binary and doing the same with that, then installing tools. |
| 23:15:45 | <jackdk> | If you want this level of control, have you considered Nix? |
| 23:16:19 | <Guest91> | I don't know Nix. nix-shell ? |
| 23:16:20 | <sm> | I see... what about GHC binaries from haskell.org/ghc ? |
| 23:16:49 | <Guest91> | Part of the problem here is that I'm a sysadmin -- I am not a Haskell user. I put stuff in place, other people use it. |
| 23:17:19 | <sm> | maerwald: does/should ghcup have an option to install things elsewhere than $HOME ? |
| 23:19:17 | <Guest91> | Hah, having just looked at the binary distros on haskell.org, my OS isn't there -- RHEL 8. I suspect I'm going to have to build at least ghc from source regardless. |
| 23:19:47 | <Guest91> | With luck my notes for that haven't decayed quite so badly. |
| 23:20:13 | <sm> | note, `cabal install ghc` does not install GHC, but the `ghc` API package |
| 23:20:33 | <Guest91> | Aha, useful to know. Thank you. I was figuring it was the compiler itself. |
| 23:21:08 | <sm> | and perhaps you don't need a RHEL 8 specific binary ? Just Linux (ARCH) |
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| 23:21:46 | <Guest91> | We put things in weird places to avoid disturbing the system binaries & libraries, so I often need to build to make sure that any baked-in paths are correct. |
| 23:22:44 | <sm> | you have a fun job don't you :) |
| 23:23:10 | <Guest91> | Academic sysadmin! It has its moments. Dealing with Haskell and cabal are... not my favorite, I must say. |
| 23:23:33 | <sm> | I was going to throw docker into the mix... |
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| 23:24:29 | <Guest91> | So far managed to avoid that one. We use VMWare to good effect, and have handed user-level docker privs on specific machines to the three users who so far have required that. |
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| 23:25:59 | geekosaur | has been there |
| 23:26:09 | <Guest91> | Yup, here's the ghc bootstrapping I was expecting. Can't build 9.2.2 with my distro's version 8.2.2. Interstitial versions, here I come... |
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| 23:26:29 | <geekosaur> | bindist shouldn't need to bootstrap |
| 23:26:35 | <geekosaur> | did I miss something? |
| 23:26:40 | <sm> | ohh so old. I would definitely be trying the 9.2.2 binaries |
| 23:27:09 | <geekosaur> | (managed cluster and grad student machines for Carnegie Mellon ECE for a decade, around a decade ago) |
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| 23:27:34 | <geekosaur> | ECE, so no compiler stuff unless you count Verilog |
| 23:28:19 | <Guest91> | geekosaur no bindist for RHEL 8, and I'm already leery of our odd install pathing, so bootstrapping my way from 8.2.2 to 9.2.2. |
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| 23:29:37 | <monochrom> | Are you sure the one for Fedora 27 isn't good enough? |
| 23:29:53 | <monochrom> | Are you already on https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_9_2_2.html#linux_x86_64 ? |
| 23:30:09 | <geekosaur> | RHEL is usually fairly old, so probably it's not |
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| 23:30:26 | <monochrom> | OK yikes |
| 23:30:35 | <geekosaur> | had to deal with RHEL at my last job, it makes Debian look like rolling release |
| 23:31:03 | <Guest91> | RHEL 8 is based on Fedora 28, might work. But I've done bootstrap in the past to good effect, so bootstrap here should -- I hope! -- still work. |
| 23:31:07 | <monochrom> | Perhaps CentOS 7 is closer? |
| 23:31:17 | <sm> | since you already succeeded installing a modern ghc with ghcup: there's also the option of doing that and just moving it |
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| 23:31:30 | <geekosaur> | that should be since CentOS is more or less free RHEL |
| 23:31:36 | <geekosaur> | *should be OK |
| 23:32:54 | <Guest91> | sm: no baked in paths to worry about? I've been bit by that on various occasions. |
| 23:33:01 | <monochrom> | At any rate they are built for you to just say "./configure --prefix=/foo/bar && make install" so you can choose whatever /foo/bar you want, maximum flexibility. |
| 23:33:16 | <sm> | I don't know, but I sure would give it a try before bootstrapping through multiple GHC versions on an ancient system |
| 23:33:35 | <monochrom> | There are install-time bake-in paths. |
| 23:33:48 | <geekosaur> | ghc doesn't bake in paths, and you'll find that an installed ghc uses wrapper scripts which pass -B options to find itself |
| 23:33:50 | <monochrom> | But they are install-time. |
| 23:34:13 | <geekosaur> | at need you can edit the wrappers |
| 23:34:58 | <geekosaur> | oh, package db registrations have baked-in paths also. but you can edit the registration files and then run ghc-pkg recache --global |
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| 23:35:29 | <monochrom> | That gets out of hand quickly. |
| 23:35:38 | <Guest91> | Eh, I have 8.6.5 building with 8.2.2. Next up: 8.10.7, and then 9.2.2. I vaguely remember not being able to skip quite so many versions last time I did this. |
| 23:35:51 | <geekosaur> | hopefully it's only done once while provisioning the machine |
| 23:36:01 | <monochrom> | I mean for those of us who deeply understand how GHC organizes itself it looks "trivial". |
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| 23:37:13 | <geekosaur> | Guest91, somewhere mid-8.x ghc went from "support one prior version" to "support two prior versions" |
| 23:37:28 | <Guest91> | That'd explain it. Much appreciated! |
| 23:37:36 | <monochrom> | I use ghcup but I pull a GHCUP_INSTALL_BASE_PREFIX=/usr/local trick. :) |
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| 23:37:54 | <sm> | monochrom: ah, there it is, nice |
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| 23:38:04 | <Guest91> | Hm! I may try that separately while this interstitial is building. |
| 23:38:25 | <Guest91> | It'll probably still leave me a pile of things in ~/.ghc and ~/.cabal. |
| 23:38:34 | <monochrom> | But then it means /usr/local/.ghcup (generally $GHCUP_INSTALL_BASE_PREFIX/.ghcup). |
| 23:38:39 | <Guest91> | Ooog. |
| 23:38:56 | <monochrom> | But no matter, I then set up symlinks to get nicer directory names. |
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| 23:39:57 | <Guest91> | Our install paths are weird because we install everything into a per-version directory and then symlink into a common bin & lib & other stuff directory set. Lets us keep old versions around in case someone is relying on them. |
| 23:40:07 | <geekosaur> | yup |
| 23:40:17 | <monochrom> | ghcup does that internally too. |
| 23:40:35 | <Guest91> | But many things look askance at being installed into a directory like /usr/local/ghc-9.2.2, which is why I'm leery of binary distros. |
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| 23:41:04 | <geekosaur> | ghc's "binary distro" has a configure script |
| 23:41:06 | <monochrom> | Although, to be fair, "does it internally" also means not according to your established scheme. |
| 23:41:18 | <sclv> | i'd also check if the prof really wants 9.2.2 -- the stable-tho-somewhat-old version still in production many places is 8.10.7 |
| 23:41:41 | <sm> | +1 |
| 23:41:43 | <jackdk> | I am aware of at least one academic institution that's still teaching with 8.6.5 |
| 23:41:48 | <Guest91> | Latest release by request! That much I know. |
| 23:41:53 | <geekosaur> | and 9.2.2 did change some details of parsing |
| 23:42:06 | <monochrom> | Yes you should make the prof decide on the version and sign it black and white and witnessed by a lawyer and a justice of peace. |
| 23:42:16 | <geekosaur> | notably spaces arenowrequires in someplaces where they were optional |
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| 23:42:26 | <geekosaur> | *are now required |
| 23:42:30 | <Guest91> | The prof is quite good about being consistent on these things. One of our best customers in that regard. |
| 23:42:53 | <sm> | but hey, if 9.2.2 is acceptable it's faster and probably nicer all round and why not save a bunch of students some pain |
| 23:43:18 | <Guest91> | And I'll have 8.10.7 as an interstitial anyhow, so I might as well keep it. |
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| 23:45:22 | <monochrom> | But yeah putting different versions in different directories is a good idea. |
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| 23:46:09 | <jackdk> | When you have time, I think you should give Nix (not the whole OS, just the package manager/build tool/floor wax) a good look - its whole point is that everything it builds lives under /nix/store, with a lot of work going into hardcoding rpaths etc such that it's not depending on system libs etc. Not sure if they support RHEL 8 though. |
| 23:46:32 | <Guest91> | jackdk: I'll have a look while I'm building these interstitials. |
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| 23:47:11 | <jackdk> | It also seems like a useful thing to have for reproducible science |
| 23:47:44 | <geekosaur> | downside is you end up with Nix-flavored duplicates of half your system libraries |
| 23:47:54 | <Guest91> | Yup. Another reason I dislike the default behavior of cabal putting everything in $HOME. |
| 23:48:04 | <geekosaur> | as a sysadmin I find that annoying |
| 23:48:43 | <monochrom> | I'm a sysadmin-wannabe so I have some of that sentiment too. |
| 23:49:12 | <monochrom> | Although, I'm sysadminning for just one user (myself) so I am not really impacted. |
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| 23:50:23 | <sibnull[m]> | I'm a developer, and NixOS is great, because all the sysamin stuff is basically outsourced to professionals, and all I do is reproduce their curated configuration on my computer. |
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| 23:53:12 | <geekosaur> | I think nix*os* makes more sense than nix itself |
| 23:53:58 | <geekosaur> | specifically because nix has to duplicate the host system to ensure its curated configuration is used |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-04-20.