Logs on 2022-04-22 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:14:45	<Axman6>	tvandinther: I'm probably the one who told you to use stack, but only because you mentioned you were already using it. I would recommend sticking with just cabal these days
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00:29:01	<jackdk>	I agree with Axman6. Stack was a good improvement at the time, but that time has passed.
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00:29:47	<Axman6>	I still think that for application development, there is some benefit to the LTS approach, but that's about it
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00:30:20	<jackdk>	`cabal freeze` covers that these days IMHO
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00:35:46	<sm>	stack will still be a smoother experience for most new users most of the time.
00:36:26	<sm>	but that'll keep declining as long as it's not getting maintenance
00:39:15	<jackdk>	I believe that is no longer true as of some time in the past, given that we now have ghcup, the v2-* commands are default, etc.
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00:41:18	<sm>	I see one tool with fewer footguns as simpler than all that, again most of the time, it's highly dependent. But YMMV
00:41:34	<jerry99>	is there a shorter way of doing this?
00:41:50	<jerry99>	:t let f = undefined :: Int -> String -> IO (); g = undefined :: IO Int; h = undefined :: IO String in join $ f <$> g <*> h
00:41:51	<lambdabot>	IO ()
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00:45:03	<jackdk>	jerry99: Nothing comes to mind. You could write it out in `do` notation if you feel that's clearer
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00:48:00	<sm>	how could that really be much shorter ? I mean, come on :)
00:48:59	<sm>	with a multiline paste maybe I'd see it
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00:53:50	<jerry99>	I find it reasonably clean, I was just wondering if I missed some operators or functions
00:54:30	<jerry99>	(it being join $ f <$> g <*> h)
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01:00:56	<sm>	if you happen to be using any of these packages, they seem to define a helper: https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=(Int%20-%3E%20String%20-%3E%20IO%20())%20-%3E%20IO%20Int%20-%3E%20IO%20String%20-%3E%20IO%20()
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02:06:48	<hololeap>	@pf join $ f <$> g <*> h
02:06:48	<lambdabot>	Maybe you meant: pl bf
02:06:53	<hololeap>	@pl join $ f <$> g <*> h
02:06:53	<lambdabot>	join (f <$> g <*> h)
02:07:55	<hololeap>	I think it would be more clear with do notation, but that's just me
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02:12:32	<hololeap>	I also tried to reduce it with the knowledge that (\f -> join . fmap f) = (=<<), but it doesn't actually reduce that way
02:15:30	<hololeap>	you end up with: \f g h -> (join . ((<*>) . fmap f) g) h
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02:37:55	<Axman6>	join $ liftA2 f g h might be a little shorter
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02:40:48	<tvandinther>	Quick question, I have a function that returns `IO Int` and I want to create a list of tuples of these integers `n` long. How would I do that?
02:41:10	<Axman6>	what result type do you want?
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02:41:43	<hololeap>	tvandinther: so your function returns a different `IO Int` each time and you want to collect a few of those results?
02:41:51	<tvandinther>	`IO (Int, Int)` I suppose for the return
02:42:03	<tvandinther>	yeah, basically a list of random integer tuples
02:42:14	<Axman6>	the first thing that somes to mind is replicateN n ((,) <$> f <*> f)
02:42:41	<Axman6>	IO (Int, Int) or IO [(Int, Int)]?
02:42:56	<tvandinther>	yeah the list one
02:43:04	<hololeap>	:t replicateM
02:43:05	<lambdabot>	Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a]
02:43:26	<Axman6>	looks like you want what I said above then
02:44:12	<hololeap>	% :t \(f :: IO Int) (n :: Int) -> replicateM n ((,) <$> f <*> f)
02:44:13	<yahb>	hololeap: IO Int -> Int -> IO [(Int, Int)]
02:44:24	<Axman6>	though there might be better solutionms if you tell us where that IO Int comes from
02:44:41	<tvandinther>	Cool, I think I'm getting closer to what I want. Am I correct in that I should define my pipeline functions as pure and then use `fmap` to get them to work with the IO monad?
02:45:10	<Axman6>	I don't think you've given us enough information to be able to answer that
02:45:52	<hololeap>	it's almost always a good idea to use the purest functions possible and then lift them into IO (or whatever abstraction) when you need to
02:46:22	<tvandinther>	I have transformations that take the int tuple and checks if the integers are equal and returns a boolean, then I count how many matches there are. Then there is another variation on that where I change one of the ints in the tuple before comparison
02:47:18	<hololeap>	change it with something from IO or something pure?
02:47:31	<tvandinther>	change based on something pure
02:48:43	<hololeap>	then you should be fine writing your two functions purely and piping in the IO Ints at the end
02:49:13	<hololeap>	"piping" meaning just regular haskell function stuff, not the pipes package or anything
02:51:18	<tvandinther>	Yes, I mean just passing outputs into inputs
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02:53:09	<hololeap>	your first function would be something like: (Int, Int) -> Bool
02:53:22	<hololeap>	second would be: (Int -> Int) -> (Int, Int) -> (Int, Int)
02:55:44	<hololeap>	then you would just grab your (IO [(Int, Int)]) using relicateM or repeatM in a do block, and pass them to those functions and count the results
02:56:28	<hololeap>	you would end up with (IO Int) because 1) you are counting the results (Int) and 2) once you enter the IO monad your results have to be (IO a)
02:57:19	<hololeap>	does that make sense?
02:58:04	<tvandinther>	That makes sense. I just have questions about how to enter the IO monad
02:58:05	<tvandinther>	I have a function `createTuple :: Int -> Int -> (Int, Int)` and a function `randomInt :: IO Int` and I want to apply them so that I can call something like `createTuple randomInt randomInt`
02:59:08	<hololeap>	the most idiomatic way is to call randomInt twice in a do block to catch the results, then just end with `return (createTuple x y)` to get a `IO (Int, Int)` result
02:59:14	<tvandinther>	and then `replicateM n createTuple'`
02:59:34	<hololeap>	I can write up a quick example if you want
02:59:38	<tvandinther>	I see, let me try that
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03:04:20	<tvandinther>	I made `createTuple' :: IO (Int, Int)` and then used it `tuples <- replicateM n createTuple'` but apparently tuples is type `[(Int, Int)]` when I expect it to be `[IO (Int, Int)]`. What am I missing?
03:05:15	<Axman6>	:t replicateM
03:05:17	<lambdabot>	Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a]
03:05:30	<Axman6>	why do you expect it to be [IO (Int, Int)]?
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03:07:47	<tvandinther>	Oh should it be `IO [(Int, Int)]`?
03:08:03	<Axman6>	if you're using replicateM, yes
03:08:27	<Axman6>	if, for some reason, you want [IO (Int, Int)] then you can use replicate, but I doube that's what you want
03:08:32	<tvandinther>	the type hint still shows me the pure list
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03:09:18	<jackdk>	can you copy paste from your ghci exactly what you typed and what it returned?
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03:10:00	<tvandinther>	sure, I just have to fix my file cos its got some errors
03:10:50	<jackdk>	no worries =)
03:12:11	<jackdk>	Meanwhile, I think I understand what's going on. When you say you wrote `tuples <- replicateM n createTuple'` but apparently tuples is type `[(Int, Int)]`, was this in GHCi?
03:13:15	<tvandinther>	it wasn't, so perhaps I am being misled by HLS.
03:13:32	<jackdk>	It would've been inside a `do` block, then?
03:13:34	<hololeap>	tvandinther: http://sprunge.us/b5BvyB?haskell
03:13:38	<tvandinther>	Quick dumb question, how do I unpack a data record? Can I do that in a where clause?
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03:14:38	<jackdk>	you can pattern-match like `let MyRecordConstructor { field1 = x, field2 = y } = myRecord in ..` (or the equivalent in a `where`)
03:15:02	<hololeap>	you can give each field of the data record a name, which creates a function that unpacks that particular field
03:15:09	<jackdk>	also that
03:15:11	<Axman6>	you can also pattern match on it: let MyRecordConstructor x y z = myRecord
03:15:16	<jackdk>	also also that
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03:15:44	<Axman6>	or you can turn on record dot syntax and use myRecord.field1, myRecord.filed2 :P
03:15:56	<jackdk>	also also also that but let's not get ahead of ourselves =P
03:16:08	<hololeap>	Axman6: when was that implemented?
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03:16:20	<hololeap>	is that a 9.2 thing?
03:16:36	<jackdk>	hololeap: yeah https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/overloaded_record_dot.html#extension-OverloadedRecordDot
03:16:47	<hololeap>	I mean, it's sorely needed
03:17:38	<hololeap>	tvandinther: I never actually used the createTuple function in that example, but it wasn't really needed
03:18:19	<jackdk>	tvandinther: so anyway, when you write `x <- expression`, if `expression :: m a` for some monad `m`, then `x` has type `a`. This is because `do`-notation transforms `x <- expression` into `expression >>= \x -> ...`
03:18:50	<tvandinther>	hololeap thanks for the code snippet. I'll take a closer look at it
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03:24:53	<tvandinther>	Ahh I see. Because when I ran the same expression in ghci with :t I got IO [tuple]
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03:26:35	<tvandinther>	and to check my understanding >>= is the bind operator which allows connecting the expression monad to the next expression using the output x?
03:27:36	<tvandinther>	equivalent to unwrapping x from IO and calling the next function x -> IO y?
03:27:49	<tvandinther>	I'm probably wrong somewhere
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03:34:11	<hololeap>	no, you're right. unwrapping x from IO and passing it to (x -> IO y) is what (>>=) does
03:34:27	<hololeap>	do notation is just syntactic sugar for that
03:34:49	<c_wraith>	as long as you only think of the "unwrapping" on the type level.
03:35:07	<hololeap>	right, it's a conceptual thing
03:35:33	<c_wraith>	at the value level, "unwrapping" is way too limited of a perspective to explain what's going on in IO
03:38:29	<tvandinther>	So then now I have a function which is `x -> y` how do I make it `x -> IO y` so that I can pass x into it in this do block?
03:38:47	<tvandinther>	I thought thats what fmap did but it doesn't seem to change it
03:38:54	<Axman6>	that is what fmap does
03:39:02	<Axman6>	% :t fmap @IO
03:39:02	<yahb>	Axman6: (a -> b) -> IO a -> IO b
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03:40:08	<hololeap>	well, what you're probably looking for is (return . f) or (pure . f) -- return and pure are synonyms
03:40:21	<tvandinther>	Hmm. this is what it tells me: Couldn't match type ‘[]’ with ‘IO’
03:40:21	<tvandinther>	Expected: IO [Bool]
03:40:22	<tvandinther>	Actual: [[Bool]]
03:40:25	<hololeap>	return and pure take a pure function and lift it to an Applicative/Monad
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03:40:44	<hololeap>	*a pure value
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03:41:22	<hololeap>	when I said in the comment that you have to end with an IO action, you can use return or pure which are essentially "nullary" actions
03:42:57	<hololeap>	you can also use a let statement in the do block which is a pure way to assign a variable in a do block
03:42:58	<tvandinther>	okay I seemed to get it with `let y = map xToYFunc [x]`
03:43:08	<tvandinther>	what is the let statement sugar for?
03:43:15	<Axman6>	nothing
03:43:26	<Axman6>	it defines names
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03:43:45	<tvandinther>	ooh right. I figured thats what `x <-` was
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03:44:04	<hololeap>	no, <- is the syntactic sugar part of the do block
03:44:07	<Axman6>	though in do notation, I guess we have the sugar: ...; let x = y; ... which is equivalent to ...; let x = y in ...
03:44:11	<hololeap>	that's what maps to (>>=)
03:44:26	<Axman6>	let and <- do different things (pun intended)
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03:44:54	<Axman6>	x <- y; other ==> y >>= \x -> other
03:45:07	<Axman6>	let x = y; other ==> let x = y in other
03:45:09	<tvandinther>	so the token to the left of `<-` needs to be used immediately in the next statement? or can you use it twice?
03:45:15	<Axman6>	no
03:45:23	<Axman6>	it is in scope from then onwards
03:45:48	<tvandinther>	does it "unsugar" into a mess of nested brackets?
03:45:55	<tvandinther>	if you weave the usage of it
03:46:00	<Axman6>	> do {x <- [1,2,3]; y <- [10,20,30]; pure (x+y) }
03:46:02	<lambdabot>	[11,21,31,12,22,32,13,23,33]
03:46:16	<hololeap>	@undo do {x <- [1,2,3]; y <- [10,20,30]; pure (x+y) }
03:46:16	<lambdabot>	[1, 2, 3] >>= \ x -> [10, 20, 30] >>= \ y -> pure (x + y)
03:46:17	<Axman6>	whether it does or not is irrelevant
03:47:04	<hololeap>	you can write it out on pen and paper if you want, but do notation is there to save your brain cells and your sanity from all that
03:47:39	<dibblego>	https://github.com/system-f/fp-course/blob/master/README.markdown?plain=1#L325
03:47:57	<tvandinther>	yeah I can see that. I'm just trying to get my head around how the do block actually helps us. If you used x in that example do block again after the y, does it result in brackets?
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03:48:59	<Axman6>	I'm not sure how that's relevant
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03:49:13	<hololeap>	yes, it can result in statements wrapped in parens, if it is complex enough
03:49:18	<dibblego>	when the question is itself confused, in learning environment, we stop using do-notation altogether
03:49:25	<dibblego>	go back to using functions >>=
03:49:48	<Axman6>	do { x <- fx; y <- fy; g x y } ==> fx >>= (\x -> fy >>= \y -> g x y))
03:50:00	<hololeap>	I think they understand the concept of (>>=) but want to make sure do notation works as they intend it to
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03:50:27	<Axman6>	do { x <- fx; y <- fy; g x y } ==> fx >>= (\x -> fy >>= (\y -> g x y)) -- forgot a bracket
03:50:47	<tvandinther>	Cool, I think it starts to make sense to me how the do block works
03:51:09	<hololeap>	tvandinther: you can use @undo in the chat to convert a do statement to (>>=) spaghetti, or send a PM to lambdabot
03:51:17	<tvandinther>	I can see it tries to turn procedural statements into nested and composed function calls
03:51:25	<tvandinther>	thanks for the tip
03:52:20	<hololeap>	do notation can look like procedural code, but you have to remember in haskell it's all function composition
03:52:38	<hololeap>	there just happens to be a 1:1 correlation between the two
03:52:54	<tvandinther>	makes sense
03:53:05	<tvandinther>	thanks for all your help
03:53:17	<tvandinther>	my program now works and compiles
03:53:47	<tvandinther>	it runs n simulations of the monty all problem and reports how many times you win the car for swapping doors and not swapping doors
03:53:54	<tvandinther>	monty hall*
03:54:03	<hololeap>	nice
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04:26:09	<hololeap>	@undo do { let x = 3; let y = 4; pure (x+y) }
04:26:09	<lambdabot>	<unknown>.hs:1:17:Parse error: let
04:30:00	<int-e>	@undo do let { x = 3 }; let { y = 4 }; pure (x + y)
04:30:01	<lambdabot>	let { x = 3} in let { y = 4} in pure (x + y)
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04:32:03	<hololeap>	hm, I don't understand the distinction there
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04:32:31	<int-e>	you need braces for the let blocks; otherwise they extend as far to the right as it goes, leading to parse errors
04:32:49	<int-e>	you /can/ put those outer braces as well, but those are optional.
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04:33:52	<hololeap>	@undo do { let x = 3; y = 4 }; pure (x + y)
04:33:52	<lambdabot>	<unknown>.hs:1:24:Parse error: Last statement in a do-block must be an expression
04:33:53	<int-e>	@undo do let { x = 3; y = 4 }; pure (x + y)
04:33:53	<lambdabot>	let { x = 3; y = 4} in pure (x + y)
04:34:18	<hololeap>	ok. good to know
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04:36:18	<int-e>	fortunately this doesn't come up when writing code with layout... indenting the let bindings happens naturally
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04:39:03	<int-e>	"those are optional" ... in this example, where the `do` block is the outermost block of interest.
04:39:38	<hololeap>	@undo do { let { x = 3; y = 4 }; pure (x + y) }
04:39:38	<lambdabot>	let { x = 3; y = 4} in pure (x + y)
04:39:42	<int-e>	I suppose it's more common to run into this in the form of `> let foo = do { bar; baz } in blah`...
04:40:28	<hololeap>	yeah this only comes up for me in chat with one-line code blocks
04:41:13	<int-e>	Hmm. Actually that works without braces. But it stops working if you want to have a second binding in the `let`...
04:41:51	<int-e>	so context matters a lot for which braces can be omitted
04:41:58	<hololeap>	@undo do { let { x = 3 }; let { y = 4 }; pure (x+y) }
04:41:58	<lambdabot>	let { x = 3} in let { y = 4} in pure (x + y)
04:42:04	<hololeap>	seems to work
04:42:23	<hololeap>	that could be useful
04:43:16	<hololeap>	:t do { z <- { let { x = 3 }; let { y = 4 }; pure (x+y) }; pure z }
04:43:17	<lambdabot>	error: parse error on input ‘{’
04:43:31	<int-e>	@undo do let { x = 3; }; pure 42
04:43:31	<lambdabot>	let { x = 3} in pure 42
04:44:03	<int-e>	Hmm. I wonder why it puts the closing brace there without a space. Oh well.
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04:45:03	<hololeap>	the mystery of the prize
04:51:17	<hololeap>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPZMt3e4vM
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06:29:44	<dminuoso>	Anyone with nix flakes experience? Im trying to override a dependency in callCabal2nix, which appears to work in principle, except it doesnt appear to recognize the version of the replaced dependency.
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06:31:08	<dminuoso>	Initially I thought I could just swap out a haskell dependency `dep` by providing it in the attrset in `callCabal2nix "foo" self { dep = dep; }`
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06:54:28	<Axman6>	TIL it's actually alowable to indent all top level definitions in a Haskell module: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/71963606/indented-import-statement-causes-parsing-error-in-stylish-haskell
06:54:32	<Axman6>	I'm not ok with this
06:55:50	<dminuoso>	On second thought this seems quite consistent.
06:56:18	<dminuoso>	For the most part, there's not really a difference between top level declaration groups and nested declaration groups
06:56:29	<Axman6>	I won't stand for it!
06:56:44	<Axman6>	Up with this I will not put!
06:56:50	<dminuoso>	The real question just becomes, why cant we have multiple modules per file!
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06:57:40	<dminuoso>	But yeah, this will break my regular flow of `rg ^foo`
06:57:53	<dminuoso>	I wonder whether hasktags plays nice with this
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07:07:35	<[Leary]>	dminuoso: You could always overlay the override into the haskell package set you pull callCabal2nix from. I'm not sure if there's a nicer way to do it using the final argument.
07:10:03	<dminuoso>	[Leary]: I think I finally figured it out. I kept writing `outputs = { self, powerdns }: ... callCabal2nix "powerdns-gerd" self { inherit powerdns; }`, but I should have referred to the correct powerdns output.
07:10:23	<dminuoso>	This is the price for not having a nominal or even structural type system.
07:10:48	<dminuoso>	As long as the attrvalues in that set are sets themselves, callCabal2nix is happy.
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08:58:29	<albet70>	% :t join @((->)(a->b))
08:59:17	<albet70>	:t join @((->)(_->_))
08:59:18	<lambdabot>	error: parse error on input ‘->’
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09:01:01	<albet70>	join :: ((a->b) -> (a->b)->c) -> (a->b)->c
09:01:14	→	AdamConner-Sax[m joins (~adamcsmat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:e2c8)
09:01:14	←	AdamConner-Sax[m parts (~adamcsmat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:e2c8) ()
09:01:22	<albet70>	which senecio would use this join?
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10:11:47	<akegalj>	Do I remember correctly that there were 1200 active users in this channel 5+ years ago (on freenode network at that time)? Did this drop happen when #haskell changed networks or is there some other dynamics at play? I really enjoy reading discussion and tips and tricks shered in this channel and I hope it stays healthy :)
10:12:18	<geekosaur>	happened with the cutover from freenode
10:12:30	<geekosaur>	we figure there were never 1200 active users
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10:14:13	<akegalj>	yeah, I am mostly in read only mode as well. But if I feel confident contributing (which i rarelly do :D) I step in
10:14:48	<akegalj>	ok, so freenode cutover is main reason
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10:28:29	<sm>	in two ways: cleaning out of inactive nicks, and people taking the opportunity to try newer chat systems
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10:30:50	<yushyin>	i still see all the regulars from before the network change (and also lots of new nicks) ^^
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13:24:17	<carter>	Matrix channels have those accidental conference notifications
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14:25:50	lagash	is mostly lurking these days.
14:26:05	<shapr>	hi lagash, writing any cool code?
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14:31:43	<lagash>	sadly no, at least, not in Haskell.. although I was thinking of writing a dictionary conversion tool using some Haskell XML library..
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14:56:02	<oak->	at least hxt is somewhat reasonable XML-library for Haskell
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15:21:15	<raehik>	When I try generating Haddocks with `cabal haddock`, I get a haddock internal error telling me one of the dependencies is missing a file `<pkg>/share/doc/html/doc-index.json`
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15:21:43	<raehik>	I can't figure out how to either generate that file, or not require it
15:22:01	<raehik>	(this is GHC 9.2, Cabal 3.6, but it occurred with Cabal 3.4 also)
15:23:26	<monochrom>	I don't know how to unrequire it. But I would have built all dependencies with library docs enabled. Hell, I do, my .cabal/config has "documentation: True", which is sadly non-default.
15:23:30	<geekosaur>	generally you have to install all dependencies with 'documentation: True'
15:23:59	<monochrom>	cabal has a lot of wrong defaults
15:24:11	<geekosaur>	if you don't do what monochrom says, you can add it to cabal.package as a stanza 'package *\n documentation: True'
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15:24:27	<monochrom>	Well, they are the right defaults for xmonad users who otherwise wouldn't use Haskell, really.
15:24:29	<raehik>	I'm running `cabal haddock --enable-documentation` - does that not do the same?
15:24:56	<monochrom>	That does not say "do it for dependencies too".
15:25:07	<geekosaur>	it doesn't go back and run haddock for dependencies
15:25:33	<monochrom>	"cabal build" is usually the deadline for saying how to build dependencies.
15:25:56	<monochrom>	"That ship has sailed"
15:25:58	<raehik>	gotcha. thanks
15:26:00	<sclv>	hrm, so would `cabal build --enable-documentation` and then `cabal haddock --enable-documentation` then work?
15:26:17	<monochrom>	Then that second command is redundant.
15:26:18	<sclv>	in general cabal v2-haddock has a lot of rough edges iirc
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15:26:49	<sclv>	do you think this would warrant a patch to cabal to make `cabal haddock --enable-documentation` recursively ensure dep docs are built too?
15:27:39	<monochrom>	Yeah "cabal haddock" came from even before v1 time. When the workflow was analogous to C people, a "make configure", "make build", "make build docs", "make install".
15:27:49	<raehik>	checking exact behaviour for build -> haddock, haddock with a cabal.project
15:28:12	<monochrom>	I would remove "cabal haddock" altogether.
15:28:15	<raehik>	should I just do a `cabal build --enable-docs --haddock-for-hackage`, is that better? (does that last flag work?)
15:28:41	<sclv>	the last flag does something, but it may not be what you want for local, i don't recall
15:28:50	<sclv>	it sets a bunch of default flags to make things the way hackage expects
15:29:02	<raehik>	(this is for a CI run that generates Haddock artifacts so I don't have to do locally)
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15:41:16	<raehik>	I'm still not generating that doc-index.json file. I get doc-index.html s, and the Haddock is certainly built, but when the dependencies are finished, it fails with the same error
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15:47:16	<raehik>	I've solved it by adding `haddock-options: --quickjump` to my cabal.project . My setup is super barebones, tiny project, GHC 9.2 via ghcup, latest everything. Is this a bug?
15:47:58	<sclv>	its certainly a bad user interface experience
15:48:05	<raehik>	without that --quickjump, the dependencies apparently don't build with it, even though the main project will (and so errors)
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15:48:13	<sclv>	I'm not sure if the fault lies with haddock here or how cabal invokes haddock
15:48:30	<sclv>	Ah -- I think I see the problem.
15:48:31	<raehik>	I think the latter
15:48:37	<sclv>	haddock-for-hackage implies quickjump
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15:48:49	<monochrom>	:)
15:49:10	<sclv>	but documentation: true does not
15:49:13	<raehik>	I see, thanks! why has it only recently broken? :/
15:49:41	<sclv>	well v2 haddock was effectively not working for quite some time, i don't think it ever worked well
15:50:12	<raehik>	I'm using `cabal build` now, same issue
15:50:30	<sclv>	right, by "cabal haddock" i meant v2 support for haddock in general
15:50:38	<raehik>	ah, understand
15:50:43	<raehik>	s/and/ood/
15:52:04	<sclv>	I think we need three things here -- A) make `cabal haddock` ensure haddocks of dependencies exist, B) make `--haddock-for-hackage` imply the quickjump flag for dependencies of the package being haddocked, and C) make haddock not fail when quickjump doesn't find that file
15:52:54	<raehik>	yes, sounds about right
15:53:10	<sclv>	feel free to open some tickets in both repos about this
15:53:27	<raehik>	A) might not be a problem -- dependencies were having their docs built. but, might be because of --enable-docs
15:53:58	<raehik>	cheers sclv , I'll make an issue for cabal
15:54:02	<sclv>	ah so if it weren't for quicjump, the `haddock` workflow might work correctly? nice
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15:54:24	<sclv>	also i do think haddock should not hard fail if it can't find the quickjump index-doc whatever
15:54:48	<sclv>	in general i didn't think quikjump jumped to dependencies as well, so its a bit confusing
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16:00:19	<romesrf>	Could someone help me fix a GHC error on the `notes` test?
16:00:39	<romesrf>	The output says a note was deleted, but it wasn't ;_;
16:00:58	<romesrf>	What's the formatting for notes?
16:02:12	<geekosaur>	did you want to ask that in #ghc? most of us are end users
16:03:53	<romesrf>	geekosaur: my mistake
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16:10:48	<monochrom>	IMO "cabal build --appropriate-options-and-or-cabal.project-settings" already supercedes "cabal haddock" so "cabal haddock" should be removed to eliminate confusion rather than stay and get fixed and be a time sink.
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16:12:11	<monochrom>	The command came from an ancient workflow metaphor that no longer applies today.
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16:18:12	<sclv>	i don't think that resolves either of the two underlying issues here, but i'd probably be ok with that.
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16:49:46	<abastro[m]>	What does `-haddock` ghc-option do?
16:50:02	<abastro[m]>	+ What is documentation: True
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16:51:04	<geekosaur>	"documentation: True" is a cabal configuration option to generate documentation for a groupof packages (in cabal.project) or all packages (in ~/.cabal/config)
16:52:20	<geekosaur>	hm. does ghc even have a -haddock option any more? I thought haddock was offloaded instead of being built in these days
16:52:48	<geekosaur>	I guess it does. it must run haddock for you
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16:53:07	<abastro[m]>	I cannot see the documentation with -haddock flag off.
16:53:11	<geekosaur>	(haddock wants access to the typechecker so it can generate documentation for types)
16:54:20	<abastro[m]>	So ye it works, and I do not know of any other way to view haddock
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17:09:25	<sclv>	"By default, GHC ignores Haddock comments (-- \| ... and -- ^ ...) and does not check that they’re associated with a valid term, such as a top-level type-signature. With this flag GHC will parse Haddock comments and include them in the interface file it produces."
17:10:03	<sclv>	so ghc doesn't run haddock for you, but haddock requires its interface file output, and that flag is necessary to generate that output such that haddock can consume it
17:10:48	<geekosaur>	guess that explains the discussions about fat interface files in #ghc
17:11:15	<geekosaur>	where was that hidden? it's not in the flag reference
17:11:29	<geekosaur>	(sadly that seems to be true of a number of flags)
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17:40:55	<sclv>	geekosaur: https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/using.html#haddock
17:43:10	geekosaur	wonders if a PR would be accepted that gathered up all those flags missing from the master flag reference and at least pointed to the places where they're explained
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18:17:10	<shapr>	Huh, I can't find an ics parser on hackage
18:17:32	<shapr>	oh wait, looks like iCalendar handles ics?
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18:19:33	<shapr>	huh, looks kinda dead https://github.com/chrra/iCalendar/pulls
18:19:39	shapr	checks the license
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18:28:00	<geekosaur>	I think iCal/iCalendar is the old name for the ics spec? got renamed because of Apple
18:28:53	<shapr>	it's bsd3, I can fork and NMU
18:28:57	<shapr>	but not today
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18:34:10	<napping>	Hi
18:35:52	<napping>	I'm looking into UnflitedDatatypes. Looks like it still doesn't allow polymorphism between packed unboxed fields and boxed data. Was hoping to make a single AST definition accept any type of variable names for parsing, and then intern them to Int# or so
18:36:06	<napping>	I guess I'll need two definitions
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18:37:56	<c_wraith>	you can use levity polymorphism for that
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18:39:01	<c_wraith>	Hmm. Not actually sure if levity polymorphism can apply to fields of a data type.
18:39:17	<napping>	I get "A levity-polymorphic type is not allowed here" on the constructor
18:39:25	<geekosaur>	I thought it was only functions, yeh
18:39:34	<napping>	data Term (r :: RuntimeRep) (var :: TYPE r) where ... Var :: var -> Term r var
18:40:10	<c_wraith>	Ah yes. there's a restriction that it only applies in function results specifically. weird that it's so specific
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19:28:57	<ss->	obviously this feels slightly like defeating the purpose but is there any way to have haddock generate documentation but hide function signatures (i.e. everything after the ::)? this is local documentation for a project where my function type signatures are generated with a pre-processor + template haskell. they're unreadably long after the
19:28:57	<ss->	preprocessor + template haskell runs, so I'd rather hide them if I can
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19:30:34	<monochrom>	I think no.
19:34:27	<geekosaur>	it more or less is defeating the purpose: the types tell the story
19:35:14	<Sgeo>	Does there exist a monad f such that I can take an (a->b)->s->t and make an s->f a out of it? (What I'm trying to do: Evaluate a whole bunch of semi-plausible optics encodings for another language >.>)
19:35:35	<napping>	To f?
19:36:47	<Sgeo>	(The encoding I'm playing with: Effectively (Monad v, Monad r) => (s -> v a, b -> r t)
19:36:56	<monochrom>	If it could be done, then it could be done for f=Identity, therefore you had "forall a b s t . ((a->b)->s->t) -> (s -> a)", contradiction.
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19:37:48	<Sgeo>	Where are you getting that f=Identity needs to work?
19:38:04	<monochrom>	Oh, right, nevermind.
19:38:04	<geekosaur>	exists, not forall
19:38:15	<monochrom>	Works for f = Proxy then.
19:38:29	<napping>	Are b and t fixed? I don't see how you could do anything interesting if they are hidden
19:38:32	<geekosaur>	seems to me that you have only a -> b, so you can't have an a?
19:39:20	<napping>	if they are allowed to vary because they are hidden existentially, that is
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19:43:09	<napping>	If you want F so (s -> F b t a) is isomorphic to ((a -> b) -> s -> t), the Kleisli composition should have type ((yy -> b) -> xx -> t) -> ((zz -> b) -> yy -> t) -> ((zz -> b) -> xx -> t)
19:45:26	<Sgeo>	Doesn't need to be isomorphic. The tuple I'm trying to make has two parts, I need a `v a` I think to feed into the `b -> r t` part... I think
19:46:13	<Sgeo>	(Monad v, Monad r) => (s -> v a, b -> r t) depending on the monads, this can afaict encode iso, getters (r is Reader Void), lenses
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19:48:26	<Sgeo>	Also what I would call setters, but that's not a thing afaict, and modifiers are where I'm stuck
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19:53:43	<napping>	ss-: Do you have other type signatures you would like to use? Perhaps you could generate a dummy file like GHC.Prim that produces reasonable documentation: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.8.0/docs/src/GHC.Prim.html
19:56:31	<napping>	It's a dummy file full of definitions like {-\| docs -} foo :: Type; foo = foo
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20:02:38	<napping>	Otherwise is writing some code, but perhaps it could be implemented against haddock-api without actually modifying haddock's source: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haddock-api-2.24.2
20:03:24	<napping>	(It wasn't obvious from a quick glance whether it's possible to strip out type information)
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20:09:08	<sm>	HAPPY EARTH DAY all 🌏️
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20:32:47	<tomsmeding>	ooh almost over already here
20:35:28	<briandaed>	how should we celebrate?
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20:52:30	<sm>	breathe deep.. go outside.. say thank you
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21:07:40	<monochrom>	Delete all social network accounts to incentivize closing down data centres.
21:07:51	<monochrom>	Dump and crash the cryptocurrency market.
21:08:05	<tomsmeding>	if only it were so easy
21:09:44	×	neceve quits (~quassel@2.29.116.221) (Remote host closed the connection)
21:10:24	<monochrom>	Block all ads to incentivize social networks going out of business. >:)
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21:13:46	<monochrom>	Upgrade hardware less often. 99.999% of the carbon footprint of using computers is in manufacturing the hardware.
21:14:06	<monochrom>	OK, "99.999%" is exaggerated. But definitely >= 99%.
21:14:32	<monochrom>	OK I'll stop.
21:14:43	<hpc>	100% of the carbon footprint of using computers is in manufacturing the infinite turing tape :D
21:15:17	<hpc>	that's the nice thing about lambda calculus - its computers run infinitely fast because reducing expressions is a noop
21:15:28	<monochrom>	OK I can't resist, this is the last one. Use C instead of Haskell for higher efficiency, both run time and build time, especially build time haha >:)
21:15:49	<tomsmeding>	but less programmer efficiency ;)
21:16:09	<hpc>	programmers are a renewable resource
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21:16:23	<hpc>	they're like trees, it's a neutral carbon cycle :P
21:16:26	<monochrom>	Well yeah programmer inefficiency probably causes much less carbon footprint...
21:17:42	<monochrom>	To be fair, I don't have evidence for that one. You could examine programmer coffee consumption and find out that may be a huge impact, I don't know. :)
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21:18:16	<sm>	oh yeah that's one: do something to reduce your CI's carbon emissions today
21:18:38	<monochrom>	Use C instead of shell scripts. >:)
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21:40:27	<EvanR_>	C vs haskell carbon footprint
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21:47:02	<jhagborg>	I'd be curious if anyone has some research on how much things like using binary nix caches in CI, sharing those caches with dev machines, or re-organizing dependencies to reduce recompilation can reduce energy use
21:49:10	<jhagborg>	also, for different software projects: total energy use for devs and CI to compile the code vs. energy use to actually run the code (vs. energy use to buy better hardware to make up for poor perf)
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22:01:10	<abastro[m]>	Oh so -haddock is indeed necessary to see documentation!
22:01:29	<abastro[m]>	Interesting how it is enough for me to see documentation when hovering with HLS
22:01:48	<abastro[m]>	Now how to make the documentation link come up tho..
22:04:20	<ManofLetters[m]>	puzzle:
22:04:29	<ManofLetters[m]>	> f :: (forall a. a -> a) -> (); f _ = ()
22:04:30	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:30: error: parse error on input ‘;’
22:04:40	<ManofLetters[m]>	doh
22:05:06	<ManofLetters[m]>	it wasn't supposed to be that puzzle
22:05:16	<abastro[m]>	:P lambdabot
22:05:27	<ManofLetters[m]>	in ghci this works
22:06:33	<ManofLetters[m]>	scratch that
22:06:36	<ManofLetters[m]>	> f (_ :: forall a. a -> a) = ()
22:06:39	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:27: error: parse error on input ‘=’
22:06:45	<ManofLetters[m]>	> f id
22:06:47	<lambdabot>	error:
22:06:47	<lambdabot>	• Could not deduce (Typeable a0) arising from a use of ‘f’
22:06:47	<lambdabot>	from the context: FromExpr t
22:07:16	<ManofLetters[m]>	I'm sorry; this works in ghci, too ;(
22:07:56	<ManofLetters[m]>	anyway
22:08:02	ManofLetters[m]	sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/58261ff14bb7e532c42758b693851e93f2f6fe9e
22:08:12	<ManofLetters[m]>	puzzle ^^^
22:08:24	<ManofLetters[m]>	argh, sorry, wrong puzzle
22:08:50	<ManofLetters[m]>	again:
22:08:57	ManofLetters[m]	sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/f3022b39778575dd92b57cb874befbe565596f81
22:09:03	<ManofLetters[m]>	puzzle ^^^
22:09:08	<ManofLetters[m]>	why so?
22:09:32	<monochrom>	What does ":type id f" say?
22:09:38	<ManofLetters[m]>	how do I make it work? (in real life, the `id` is `inline`)
22:10:06	<ManofLetters[m]>	hmm, it fail
22:10:29	ManofLetters[m]	sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2bc2a877a9b00f9b00334a98fed4856dd9169164
22:10:59	<abastro[m]>	Yea that explains it
22:11:00	<ManofLetters[m]>	good catch, but I still don't understand
22:11:07	<abastro[m]>	id is not sufficiently powerful for rhis
22:11:43	<ManofLetters[m]>	what is? how to make `inline` sufficienty powerful so that I can do `inline f foo`?
22:12:19	<ManofLetters[m]>	(GHC.Exts.inline)
22:12:54	<geekosaur>	% :set ImpredicativeTypes
22:13:04	<geekosaur>	uh, did we lose yahb?
22:13:19	<geekosaur>	yep :(
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22:14:37	<geekosaur>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/z0DyQwhU
22:15:02	<abastro[m]>	Oh right, that was impredicativetypes
22:15:38	<abastro[m]>	I thought impredicativetypes is on by default in ghc 9.2.2 - so it doesn't?
22:15:56	<monochrom>	No. Instead, the claim is "it actually works".
22:16:15	<monochrom>	"it finally actually works"
22:16:38	<monochrom>	Not even GHC2021 is on by default.
22:17:21	<monochrom>	maerwald would have left, not merely voicing objections, if GHC ever turns on any substantial extension by default. :)
22:17:28	<geekosaur>	ImpredicativeTypes has been a bit harum-scarum for a long time because there was no actual definition of how it ought to work, just hacks. but as of 9.0 it got a real, consistent definition
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22:20:07	<abastro[m]>	Aha, now it actually works
22:21:01	<abastro[m]>	Hmm I'd personally love new haskell standard..
22:21:27	<abastro[m]>	So that some are no longer left as extensions
22:21:33	<ManofLetters[m]>	geekosaur: thank you; the puzzle award goes to you; now I need a better example, because it still fails in the real life code ;)
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22:21:41	<geekosaur>	the problem is,someone needs to go through and document all the additions and how they interact with each other
22:21:49	<geekosaur>	ManofLetters[m], what version of ghc?
22:21:56	<ManofLetters[m]>	9.2.2
22:22:21	<ManofLetters[m]>	but it's a bit more complex in real life
22:22:48	<geekosaur>	hm, so you have QuickLook. (I don't, at least not without a little work; I'm on 8.10.7) can you pastebin your actual code or at least enough to reproduce the issue?
22:23:09	<ManofLetters[m]>	yep, working on it
22:24:44	<geekosaur>	hm, actually no work needed, I can specify it directly by version. yay ghcup :)
22:25:32	<monochrom>	"inline f id" is still OK.
22:25:58	<geekosaur>	actually I'd wonder if this might be the opposite
22:26:11	<geekosaur>	QuickLook made some eta expansions mandatory
22:26:20	<geekosaur>	and ytiou get odd type errors otherwise
22:26:26	<geekosaur>	*you
22:26:33	<ManofLetters[m]>	got it:
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22:26:40	<ManofLetters[m]>	f :: forall r. (forall a. Either a r -> Either a r) -> (); f _ = ()
22:26:40	<ManofLetters[m]>	id f
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22:33:58	<geekosaur>	mm, I think this might be a question for #ghc or even filing a ticket. seems odd that the one works but the other doesn't
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22:34:20	<geekosaur>	(repeated here, and getting `it` out of the way didn't help)
22:36:23	<monochrom>	Yeah a bit strange.
22:37:00	<ManofLetters[m]>	ok, thank you, will go molest the #ghc guys
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