Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-04-23 (liberachat/#haskell)

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03:03:57 <abastro> What is inverse of parser combinators?
03:04:10 <abastro> We have inverse of read, show
03:04:43 <monochrom> pretty printer
03:05:11 <monochrom> pretty printer combinators :)
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03:23:10 <abastro> Pretty printer?
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03:24:49 <abastro> Which pretty printer do you mean, monochrom?
03:25:22 <monochrom> That is analogous to "which parser do you mean?".
03:25:46 <monochrom> And the answer to both is "it shouldn't matter, I'm referring to the concept".
03:26:11 <abastro> Hmm
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03:26:56 <abastro> Perhaps I am missing something. After my shallow skim, it seems like pretty printers are for colors
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03:31:06 <EvanR_> the opposite of a pretty printer is to dump all information on one line, possibly word wrapped so as to be incomprehensible
03:31:36 <EvanR_> the analogous concept to parsers is parsing by using regex
03:32:12 EvanR_ is now known as EvanR
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08:34:28 <anomal> Does the brain map well to functional programming?
08:34:35 <anomal> As in can we have a functional ANN?
08:34:43 <anomal> I think not
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08:37:16 <tomsmeding> I think standard dense neural networks are pretty functional
08:40:44 <[Leary]> There's nothing imperative about NNs---they're all compositions of pure functions.
08:42:10 <tomsmeding> well you have these weird LSTM things that seem to have memory -- though I could be misunderstanding those
08:43:03 <[Leary]> So does the state monad.
08:43:41 <tomsmeding> sure
08:43:58 <dibblego> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRszt-AlKOc
08:44:17 <tomsmeding> but it's a question of perspective anyway: a state monad can be seen as 's -> (a, s)' which is purely functional, or a computation returning an 'a' with state, which is not functional
08:44:30 <tomsmeding> "being functional" is subjective and dependent on perspective
08:47:47 <[Leary]> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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08:52:19 <tomsmeding> I think that's precisely the appropriate response :p
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09:04:30 <abastro[m]> We don't know how true brains are done
09:04:54 <abastro[m]> Btw what is the result of the video dibblego posted?
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09:05:10 <abastro[m]> Don't wanna watch personally
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12:14:50 <Hiring> HR Manager hiring programmers and certified specialists in readteaming. Interested ppl DM me and we will exchange with our linkedin etc
12:15:53 <__monty__> What even is readteaming?
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12:17:16 <Hiring> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_team
12:17:48 <hpc> is it haskell-related?
12:18:03 <Hiring> Yes.
12:20:11 <hpc> maybe post a link or something, so it's not just a solicitation for PMs
12:20:27 <hpc> it could be interesting even to people that don't apply, and this is a discussion channel after all :P
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12:51:35 <ManofLetters[m]> your daily type-level puzzle (both errors are puzzling me): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/W1DfJbNL
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12:53:09 <tomsmeding> ManofLetters[m]: first error is because `f` cannot be called without type applications (because `z` is then always ambiguous)
12:53:30 <tomsmeding> GHC prevents you from accidentally writing such a type signature, and requires AllowAmbiguousTypes to disable the check
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12:53:59 <ManofLetters[m]> TIL
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12:56:48 <tomsmeding> ManofLetters[m]: the second I don't know exactly, but I suspect that that is because type class dictionaries are applied implicitly, so `c => a` unifies with `a` unifies with `d => a`, hence `y` in g's type signature is ambiguous
12:56:50 <tomsmeding> but not sure
12:58:54 <tomsmeding> in any case it does work if you add a `Proxy x` argument to the argument of `f` and to the type of `g`
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12:59:26 <tomsmeding> ManofLetters[m]: more info about the first error: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/ambiguous_types.html#extension-AllowAmbiguousTypes
13:01:00 <ManofLetters[m]> got it, thank you; Proxies would be so sad ;(
13:01:24 <tomsmeding> ManofLetters[m]: lol your example is literally there in the docs
13:01:48 <tomsmeding> (though without explanation about why)
13:04:03 <ManofLetters[m]> wow, amazing; but it's sad, because it means I need to duplicate the type applications (once per each added proxy); oh well; thank you!
13:04:17 <tomsmeding> you don't, right?
13:04:28 <tomsmeding> `forall x. KnownNat x => Proxy x -> ()`
13:04:34 <tomsmeding> then `f (Proxy @42)` is enough
13:04:40 <tomsmeding> don't need `f @42 (Proxy @42)`
13:05:38 <ManofLetters[m]> oh, ok, I thought it's `f (Proxy @42) (g (Proxy @42))
13:05:53 <ManofLetters[m]> will try and report
13:06:01 <ManofLetters[m]> (try in the real life code)
13:06:07 <tomsmeding> hm, true, though `f` happens to work without proxy in this toy example :p
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13:20:59 <ManofLetters[m]> ok, tried out, it's not so bad, no code duplication (which is error-prone), fortunately
13:21:13 <ManofLetters[m]> `f (Proxy @42) g` is enough
13:21:20 <ManofLetters[m]> and `f` applies the proxy to `g`
13:21:59 <ManofLetters[m]> the biggest pain is that all the `g`-like function require (multiple, because there are many type parameters) proxies
13:22:12 <ManofLetters[m]> ta
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13:25:42 <ManofLetters[m]> tomsmeding: ta
13:25:55 <tomsmeding> ta?
13:28:53 <ManofLetters[m]> thank you again :)
13:28:57 <ManofLetters[m]> thanks again?
13:29:18 <tomsmeding> ah, didn't know that abbreviation
13:29:19 <tomsmeding> cheers :)
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15:39:30 <tomsmeding> maerwald: styling is not yet improved, but the layout using css is much more stable now that I've used css grid (thanks arjun I guess for the suggestion): https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/play
15:40:20 <tomsmeding> you said that working with css is like harvesting asparagus; maybe it's still unpleasant, but css grid does make this particular application a lot more intuitive
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15:42:40 <maerwald> tomsmeding: nice
15:45:24 <tomsmeding> maerwald: see also the new button at the top :p
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15:45:54 <maerwald> tomsmeding: I'm trying to come up with an example that blows up heap size, but doesn't time out
15:45:55 <maerwald> any idea?
15:47:53 <tomsmeding> as in, use lots of memory in little time?
15:48:09 <tomsmeding> let l = [1..1000000] in sum l + product l + length l
15:49:00 <tomsmeding> hm
15:50:13 <maerwald> times out
15:50:19 <tomsmeding> yeah I noticed :p
15:50:33 <tomsmeding> ah {-# NOINLINE l #-}
15:51:08 <tomsmeding> with 100000000
15:51:34 <tomsmeding> ghc being too smart again
15:52:11 <tomsmeding> https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/cd85IVb8
15:52:47 <maerwald> tomsmeding: https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/LdCgMv9k
15:52:50 <maerwald> doesn't work for me
15:53:31 <maerwald> yours also times out
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15:53:56 <tomsmeding> it's on the border then apparently
15:54:17 <tomsmeding> if I remove '+ length l' and add an 'Int' annotation to l, it gives heap exhausted fairly often, but not always
15:54:57 <[_________]> what's the time limit ? putStrLn might always reach it if there's a lot of data
15:54:59 <abastro[m]> Could I get dark mode for the playground
15:55:09 <maerwald> tomsmeding: 9.2.2 worked
15:55:40 <tomsmeding> [_________]: timeout is here https://github.com/tomsmeding/pastebin-haskell/blob/play/GHCPool.hs#L37 , print is just an Int here so that's not it
15:55:54 <tomsmeding> abastro[m]: noted, I would like it too
15:57:05 <abastro[m]> Thanks!!!
15:57:20 <tomsmeding> but no promises as to delivery time :p
15:57:25 <maerwald> tomsmeding: so did you get your bubblewrap line reviewed?
15:57:35 <tomsmeding> not by a professional
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15:58:03 <maerwald> are there bubblewrap professionals other than the author?
15:58:12 <tomsmeding> :')
15:59:29 <tomsmeding> maerwald: this one is much more efficient at exhausting heap https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/HrZJmcvi
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16:01:19 <maerwald> you set max heap size to 500mb?
16:01:30 <tomsmeding> Yes
16:01:39 <tomsmeding> Is that too small?
16:01:41 <maerwald> so there's only one worker thread?
16:01:44 <tomsmeding> 3
16:01:46 <maerwald> I was thinking smaller
16:01:50 <maerwald> hmm
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16:02:17 <tomsmeding> machine has 3.7G ram according to htop, and 3 cores
16:02:33 <maerwald> I think I'd set it to 50mb and increase workers
16:02:46 <tomsmeding> is it useful to have more workers than cores
16:02:49 <maerwald> write efficient code :p
16:03:00 <tomsmeding> I already have queueing functionality, if there's more jobs than workers they get queued
16:03:03 <maerwald> no idea
16:03:14 <tomsmeding> though the maximum queue length is also 3, no idea what's a good choice there
16:04:40 <tomsmeding> maerwald: also have this ulimit because it's trivial to System.Cmd.system your way out of the RTS limits https://github.com/tomsmeding/pastebin-haskell/blob/play/bwrap-files/start.sh#L40
16:05:31 <maerwald> 3 workers seems a lil small imo... maybe the heap size can be a function of the number of workers
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16:05:46 <maerwald> and the current queue size
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16:05:58 <tomsmeding> maerwald: I doubt adding more workers than cores is helpful
16:06:13 <maerwald> why does it have so few cores
16:06:19 <tomsmeding> Rather run it on a bigger machine, for which I need $ :p
16:06:24 <tomsmeding> Because I rented a cheap vps
16:06:28 <maerwald> um
16:06:37 <maerwald> ping HF
16:06:46 <tomsmeding> I mean it's not that expensive, but poor phd
16:06:56 <maerwald> 100$ per month should be cheap for them
16:07:18 <maerwald> Hecate: can we make this happen?
16:07:25 <Hecate> hello
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16:07:36 <maerwald> we want a big machine for the haskell playground
16:07:41 <maerwald> https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/play/paste/cd85IVb8/1
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16:08:08 <Hecate> maerwald: you should contact haskell.org first I guess?
16:08:13 <Hecate> they have the infra
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16:08:42 <Hecate> maerwald: and Tom Ellis is on the board of Haskell.org btw
16:08:45 <maerwald> this is not hosted on haskell.org
16:08:48 <Hecate> this should
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16:09:07 <tomsmeding> yeah I guess this shouldn't continue to be hosted on my personal domain :p
16:09:09 <maerwald> not sure, that's up to tomsmeding
16:09:09 <Hecate> this is too important to be left on someone's personal infra
16:09:28 <Hecate> I mean, at a private individual's burden and cost
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16:09:42 <Hecate> this is the kind of stuff that would benefit from mutualising the costs
16:10:16 <tomsmeding> you guys figure this out, I'm going to make some food :p
16:10:21 <tomsmeding> be back in a while
16:10:27 <maerwald> tomsmeding: we can prolly also make the ghc backend a microservice and scale it horizontally?
16:10:45 <mikoto-chan> is there also a "namespace" for global packages with cabal?
16:10:54 <Hecate> mikoto-chan: there isn't, and shouldn't
16:11:10 <Hecate> if you're trying to do what I'm thinking you're trying to do: don't do it
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16:11:27 <mikoto-chan> Hecate: so even for a simple hello world that needs an external package I need to create a new project?
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16:11:51 <mikoto-chan> what happens when I run `cabal install foo` in my home directory?
16:12:05 <Hecate> mikoto-chan: it created an abomination and we learned our lesson
16:12:15 <maerwald> mikoto-chan: https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/steps/#an-interactive-environment
16:12:15 <Hecate> see: The Python ecosystem
16:12:30 <maerwald> mikoto-chan: this explains how to add dependencies ad-hoc so you can use them in a repl
16:12:41 <mikoto-chan> Hecate: idk about Python, I have a Go background
16:12:46 <maerwald> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/steps/#using-external-packages-in-ghci rather
16:12:49 <mikoto-chan> maerwald: thanks :)
16:12:53 <geekosaur> if foo is a library, it installs in cabal's internal package database and does nothing else. you can't access it without e.g. cabal repl --build-depends=foo
16:12:53 <mikoto-chan> oh
16:13:10 <mikoto-chan> geekosaur: so cabal has a repl too?
16:13:13 <Hecate> yes
16:13:19 <geekosaur> if it's an executable, the executable is installed in ~/.cabal/bin (or windows equivalent)
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16:14:07 <geekosaur> "cabal repl" runs ghci with youtr dependencies. if you have no current project it uses a fake one, and you can use --build-depends to add packages to that fake one
16:15:06 <mikoto-chan> thanks, that answers my question
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16:16:02 <monochrom> "A simple hello world" would not have any dependency other than what GHC already provides.
16:16:26 <maerwald> monochrom: it needs 'say'
16:16:39 <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/say-0.1.0.1/docs/Say.html :p
16:16:50 <mikoto-chan> maerwald: XD
16:16:51 <Hecate> hahaha
16:17:46 <geekosaur> I have expected some kind of lambdasay (see cowsay)
16:17:53 <geekosaur> *half expected
16:18:12 <monochrom> Ugh the package is not an April 1st joke...
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16:18:18 <albet70> if a language doesn't support tail call optimization, using fixed point call can avoid the recursive limit?
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16:19:42 <monochrom> That depends on what else the language supports and the semantics of "fixed point call" in that language.
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16:20:06 <monochrom> Fully specify the language you have in mind, and then the question can be answered.
16:20:26 <albet70> "monochrom :Fully specify the language you have in mind, and then the question can be answered.", python or javascript
16:20:35 <monochrom> Broad "conceptual" "intuitive" vague questions don't work.
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16:21:15 <monochrom> What is "fixed point call" in Python?
16:21:20 <albet70> fib _fib = _fib, call fib in the last of _fib, could avoid?
16:21:42 <monochrom> Have you benchmarked that?
16:21:50 <albet70> not yet
16:21:55 <albet70> just wondering
16:22:02 <mikoto-chan> monochrom: can you link me your Haskell writeups again?
16:22:18 <monochrom> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/
16:22:26 <maerwald> tomsmeding: please also add "access to stackage LTS dependencies" to playground TODO. That shouldn't even be hard to implement via a script.
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16:30:02 <albet70> how to construct a function f by its fixed point _f? if _f is defined
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16:30:24 <albet70> no with the 'const' way
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16:37:04 <hpc> i am not sure that it's possible
16:37:29 <hpc> try doing it to a specific recursive definition, like the factorial function
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16:38:01 <monochrom> You should not even be sure what that question means. It's deranged.
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16:40:24 <EvanR> damn
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16:45:43 <EvanR> in context where optimization doesn't change behavior but only performance, tail call optimization should be called tail call not-brokenation
16:46:27 <EvanR> TCNB
16:47:11 <albet70> it's hard to implement? and why so many languages don't support it?
16:47:25 <EvanR> I think most languages don't think it's important
16:47:32 <albet70> I only know scheme and haskell support it
16:47:42 <EvanR> scheme and haskell both support tail call not brokenation
16:47:58 <EvanR> in wildly different ways
16:48:19 <albet70> but scheme make it within its standard
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16:49:04 <albet70> despite its so many variants implement
16:49:06 <EvanR> stuff being not broken is a much more general concept and often not something you even bring up
16:49:25 <EvanR> like, a lot of people just assume things aren't broken
16:50:08 <EvanR> but schema and javascript both assume the same background function call strategy, using a call stack
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16:51:47 <EvanR> haskell's call by name stuff doesn't work that way, it happens recursive tail calling isn't automatically broken, so it awkward to even bring it up
16:53:50 <EvanR> I guess it's more constructive to say javascript features broken recursion
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16:54:44 <albet70> "call me by your name"
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16:57:27 <EvanR> tbf writing code in most languages as if it were scheme is probably bad
16:57:47 <EvanR> your coworkers would revolt
16:58:27 <EvanR> in haskell it's likely to lead to breakage too
17:00:19 <mikoto-chan> maerwald: the real question is, why does say operate on the Text set by default and not String like print?
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17:01:32 <monochrom> String = [Char] gets old quickly. (One of the few things I agree with Snoyman.) (Yes Snoyman is involved, follow the links to see his post.)
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17:05:02 <EvanR> the next real question might be, why doesn't say operate on the abstract intersection of things it would need from Text or String
17:05:16 <monochrom> EvanR: Haskell's is s/name/need/. The difference: "(\x -> x*x)(2+2)" do I get two copies of "2+2"? call-by-name: yes. call-by-need: no.
17:05:41 <EvanR> I was pretty sure I used the wrong call by
17:06:51 <monochrom> Perhaps there is insufficient interest in the "say" package altogether to advance on that front (or any front).
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17:08:00 <monochrom> Like, I know the issue, but I have another solution already. Have a service thread dedicated for putStrLn, every other thread has to message it to output to stdout.
17:08:55 <monochrom> Even putStrLn itself (generally GHC's Handle system) already has some degree of atomicity.
17:09:00 <EvanR> I guess that improves the random ordering of characters to random ordering of lines
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17:23:11 <roconnor> Is there a varient of Data.Array.! somewhere that returns a Maybe element?
17:24:54 <monochrom> I think no. vector has it.
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17:27:04 <EvanR> you can cook one up using Control.Exception, maybe
17:27:33 <geekosaur> or with bounds
17:27:58 <roconnor> ya, I've written my own for now.
17:28:07 <monochrom> Yeah please use "inRange" instead of waiting for an async exception.
17:28:20 <EvanR> double the bounds checking, since it already has to check bounds to throw an exception xD
17:28:21 <roconnor> but I'm at the point where I'll need to write my own module just to export it to various places.
17:28:53 <EvanR> I guess checking bounds combined with unsafe index
17:29:30 <roconnor> I'm sure Lens has something.
17:29:33 <monochrom> Yeah it should have been in the standard library.
17:30:13 <monochrom> Who knows, probably someone proposed this 10 years ago already and the library comittee is still like "the jury is still out on this" haha.
17:30:46 <geekosaur> I'd thought array already had at :(
17:31:02 <roconnor> It would obviously be called Data.Array.lookup
17:31:52 <roconnor> maybe it means I should just use Vector. :')
17:32:15 <monochrom> Leslie Lamport speaks of "the part-time parliament". You would think that such a parliament would be the worst committee ever.
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17:32:54 <EvanR> I respect a committee that veers on the side of doing nothing, as opposed to messing everything up regularly
17:33:12 <dolio> Pretty sure the library committee would say not to use Array.
17:33:23 <roconnor> dolio: oh really?
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17:33:51 <roconnor> Okay then I will switch to Vector.
17:34:04 <dolio> Yeah, there's been a replacement for like 15 years.
17:34:49 <dolio> I think array is only still around for backwards compatibility.
17:35:33 roconnor opens up GHC to find ... type Array i e = (i,Vector e) j/k
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17:36:37 <monochrom> There is a circular-dependency obstacle discouraging that.
17:37:00 <monochrom> Either that, or "oh so that's why GHC is a 500MB download and a 2GB install"
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17:45:23 <roconnor> dolio: How about DiffArray :P
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17:46:54 <dolio> I never use it.
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18:23:03 <tomsmeding> maerwald: horizontally scalable backend sounds like a great idea; stackage added to TODO
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18:39:50 <Brandon_IX> why does [x | x <- [20..1], 20 `mod` x == 0] give me an empty list?
18:40:10 <tomsmeding> > ([20..1], [20,19..1])
18:40:11 <lambdabot> ([],[20,19,18,17,16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1])
18:40:30 <tomsmeding> the step is +1 by default, unless you explicitly override it
18:40:45 <geekosaur> the .. syntax is not "smart" and does not realize you want it to count backwards
18:41:04 <Brandon_IX> perfect tyvm
18:41:20 <monochrom> But it's smart and realize that [20, 19 .. 1] means the step is 19-20.
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18:42:46 <monochrom> As a result if I try to translate BASIC "for i=37 to 3 step -4" I have to think "OK what is 37-4 again?"
18:42:59 <Brandon_IX> it's probably a naive questions to ask but couldn't the interpreter just check if the first number is greater than the second
18:43:18 <tomsmeding> the [..] syntax technically also works for types that don't have a (<) operation
18:43:28 <tomsmeding> :t \x -> [x..x]
18:43:30 <lambdabot> Enum a => a -> [a]
18:43:36 <tomsmeding> only has an Enum constraint, not an Ord
18:44:14 <tomsmeding> though that's a weak argument because Enum also includes a bijection with Int...
18:44:27 <tomsmeding> so I guess the correct answer is "dunno, it doesn't"
18:44:38 <monochrom> Because there are times I want [5..4] to be the empty list.
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19:00:26 <Hecate> monochrom: you mean ]4;5[?
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19:03:07 <hpc> Hecate: that evaluates to ꙱
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19:05:30 <monochrom> I mean [5..4].
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19:08:41 <monochrom> Consider the mathematical convention of "Sigma i=5 to 7" to mean 3 terms, "i=5 to 5" to mean one term, "i=5 to 4" to mean the empty sum.
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19:11:54 <geekosaur> also consider the case of [5..x] where x might be 4. sometimes you want to reverse them, sometimes you want it to be empty
19:12:12 <geekosaur> so has[21:15:33] *** Joins: machinedgod (~machinedg@24.105.81.50)
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20:26:27 <exarkun> if I have a record type X that has a value of Y as a field and there is an instance of Z for Y, is there a succinct way to make an instance of Z for X that just uses Y and Y's instance?
20:28:10 <exarkun> (Alternatively, what should I want in Haskell for cases where I wanted https://github.com/twisted/twisted/blob/trunk/src/twisted/python/components.py#L178 in Python?)
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21:00:58 <tomsmeding> exarkun: is that Y the only field of the record? If so, `deriving via`
21:01:50 <tomsmeding> otherwise, not possible in general; for example, how would that work for Z = Monoid and its mempty method? What should it invent for the other fields of X
21:02:00 <tomsmeding> or <> from Semigroup, for that matter
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21:02:49 <exarkun> hm, indeed.
21:14:39 <Sgeo> With Isos, do I need to think about type changes? s->a and b->t, or is it always s->a and a->s?
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21:20:39 <Guest81> Trying to get into haskell again. Anything you'd recommend besides the learn you a haskell?
21:21:15 <monochrom> Perhaps my http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html can help.
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21:21:47 <geekosaur> @where books
21:21:47 <lambdabot> https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books, see also @where LYAH, RWH, YAHT, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, HTAC, TwT, FoP, PFAD, WYAH, non-haskell-books
21:22:03 <hpc> https://www.haskell.org/documentation/
21:22:03 <geekosaur> also
21:22:07 <geekosaur> @where cis194
21:22:07 <lambdabot> https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html
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21:23:49 <geekosaur> @where+ books https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html, see also @where LYAH, RWH, YAHT, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, HTAC, TwT, FoP, PFAD, WYAH, non-haskell-books
21:23:49 <lambdabot> Okay.
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21:26:02 <geekosaur> @where learn
21:26:02 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Learning_Haskell
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21:28:29 <Guest81> Oh thank you all. Seems this community is active and great! Thank you all very much. I'll be back once I get a little under my belt as melas0nos
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22:59:17 <raehik> Can I manually quantify type variables in a typeclass method, so I can order them in a nice way for visible type application?
23:01:29 <raehik> it'd be nice to know in general but in this case I got confused, I'm not introducing any more typevars in the method so no ordering issues
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23:09:52 <monochrom> I think yes. Use ExplicitForall maybe.
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23:20:05 <raehik> thanks monochrom . the users guide indicates it's done per instance
23:20:44 <raehik> didn't know you could do `instance forall x. C x => D x where ...`!
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23:34:14 <monochrom> Hrm. Oh well.
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23:45:29 <abastro[m]> Having forall explicit by default could have been better for beginners so much
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23:59:53 <yushyin> abastro[m]: ExplicitForAll is in GHC2021 which is the default if neither Haskell98 nor Haskell2010 is used

All times are in UTC on 2022-04-23.