Logs on 2022-04-30 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:07:24 | <abastro[m]> | geekosaur: toposort works on partial ordering |
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| 00:09:02 | <abastro[m]> | Oh wait. Ya cycle could exist. Meh |
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| 00:12:03 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3TlfHSHV |
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| 00:13:27 | <geekosaur> | (lorder and tsort were how we built static archives before someone realized nobody used ar for anything but those and built the functionality in) |
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| 00:13:50 | <geekosaur> | (of course, then came debian…) |
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| 00:17:57 | <abastro[m]> | Oh |
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| 00:46:00 | <yuv4199> | Which functor product library use for `(:*:)`? |
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| 00:47:45 | <yuv4199> | There are many... GHC.Generics seems wrong, then there are different libraries.. I dont want to use Data.Functor.Product |
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| 00:54:38 | <abastro[m]> | Wdym functor product library? |
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| 01:02:50 | <EvanR> | and what is wrong with Data.Functor.Product |
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| 01:12:33 | <yuv4199> | I cannot "rename" it to (:*:) because it gives pattern-match warnings, eg. functor-combinators on Hackage. |
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| 01:13:13 | <yuv4199> | And I didn't understand the Show1 constraint for Show last time I used it :( |
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| 01:20:24 | <EvanR> | an operator starting with : has to be a data constructor |
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| 01:52:17 | <jackdk> | People sometimes use (:*:) from GHC.Generics as a functor product, despite it coming from an "odd" module |
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| 04:20:24 | <abastro[m]> | Oh that is interesting |
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| 06:30:40 | <tomsmeding> | abastro[m]: what do you mean with formatting? highlighting in the code editor? |
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| 08:46:27 | <abastro[m]> | Yep |
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| 08:52:13 | <Ether17> | , ("M-h", bindByLayout [("Full", windows W.focusUp), ("ReflectX Full", windows W.focusUp), ("", sendMessage $ Go L)]) |
| 08:52:13 | <Ether17> | , ("M-l", bindByLayout [("Full", windows W.focusDown), ("ReflectX Full", windows W.focusDown), ("", sendMessage $ Go R)]) |
| 08:52:47 | <Ether17> | is it possilbe to automatcially know if the master is in the right or left? |
| 08:53:19 | <abastro[m]> | (Did you post in the right channel?) |
| 08:53:42 | <Ether17> | ohh oo |
| 08:53:44 | <Ether17> | sorry |
| 08:53:56 | <abastro[m]> | Its okay |
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| 14:18:02 | <Bulby[m]> | Are there sum pattern matches? E.g... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/84f8334b2ae30748d565ca9dab612c48b0b2a6d0) |
| 14:19:04 | × | bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
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| 14:20:52 | <geekosaur> | no |
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| 14:25:15 | maerwald[m] | sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/f923a0d89eaa4505ec1d2c4eba6794abd581c1d6 |
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| 14:32:38 | <albet70> | recently there's a term DAG show up on some programming articles, what's that? |
| 14:33:33 | <albet70> | does haskell have that stuff? |
| 14:33:44 | <Noinia> | hmm, I'm having some issues with haskell-interactive-mode in emacs and a cabal project that has multiple components. In particular, if I have some module that appears only as an 'other-modules' in the test-suite, haskell-interactive-mode doesn't seem to recognize the module when trying to load it using haskell-process-load-file. Does anyone know what the best way to solve that is? |
| 14:34:21 | <Noinia> | I'm guessing I have to specify somewhere that the file I'm trying to laod is part of the test component. But I'm not sure what the most convenient way to do that is |
| 14:34:51 | <Noinia> | albet70: DAG usually means Directed Acyclic Graph |
| 14:36:51 | <Bulby[m]> | Haxe which has rich enums can do sum matches 😭 |
| 14:38:41 | <maerwald[m]> | Bulby: Haskell language isn't developed anymore, so unlikely |
| 14:39:17 | <Bulby[m]> | WHAT 😭 |
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| 14:39:23 | <abastro> | XD |
| 14:39:53 | <Bulby[m]> | I mean even "enumeration types" (flat enums) no sum matches? a bit silly |
| 14:39:59 | <Bulby[m]> | going to have to write a helper function |
| 14:40:13 | <maerwald[m]> | Your suggestion is too practical. Add some obscure type level features and you'll get our attention |
| 14:40:29 | <Bulby[m]> | is that the standard 🤣 |
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| 14:41:59 | <maerwald[m]> | You can get there half way with pattern synonyms/viewpatterns |
| 14:42:13 | <Bulby[m]> | pattern synonyms? how so? |
| 14:42:39 | <Bulby[m]> | oh |
| 14:43:02 | <Bulby[m]> | diff question, is there a different way to write string literals that contain `"` |
| 14:43:23 | <abastro> | What is sum matches |
| 14:43:25 | <geekosaur> | there are some quasiquoters on hackage |
| 14:43:29 | <Bulby[m]> | `"\"color\":\"" <> showColor x <> "ff\""` awful |
| 14:43:40 | <Bulby[m]> | > <@bulbyvr:matrix.org> Are there sum pattern matches? E.g... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/88956d2f8842e8a4185d6d8fff3dfd34b5770117) |
| 14:43:42 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘<@’ |
| 14:43:44 | <geekosaur> | abastro, otherwise known as or-patterns |
| 14:43:45 | <maerwald[m]> | Bulby: https://github.com/hasufell/hsfm/blob/322c766ae534fb21e3427d2845011123ddb90952/src/HSFM/FileSystem/FileType.hs#L193 |
| 14:44:14 | <abastro> | Well, or patterns are kind of useless tho |
| 14:44:31 | <abastro> | (Unless you mean anonymous sum types, which would be quite useful) |
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| 14:45:39 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: why does fileLike not return 'Maybe (File FileInfo)' |
| 14:46:36 | <maerwald[m]> | tomsmeding: it's old shitty code |
| 14:46:45 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: that's a good reason :p |
| 14:46:51 | <abastro> | XD |
| 14:47:26 | <abastro> | Hm the program might like some design overhaul |
| 14:47:53 | <maerwald[m]> | tomsmeding: also, you wouldn't be able to retrieve directory info then |
| 14:48:04 | <maerwald[m]> | But not sure that's used anywhere else |
| 14:48:16 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: right, I was wondering if something used it |
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| 14:48:48 | <maerwald[m]> | You're asking questions man :D |
| 14:49:00 | <tomsmeding> | hard questions? |
| 14:49:24 | <maerwald[m]> | 6 years old codebase |
| 14:49:38 | <tomsmeding> | I have older code and it's even shittier |
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| 14:50:05 | <tomsmeding> | in a grey past I programmed C and tried to use as few spaces between things as possible |
| 14:50:10 | <maerwald[m]> | A lil sad it's abandoned |
| 14:50:10 | <tomsmeding> | now _that_ code was shitty |
| 14:50:45 | <maerwald[m]> | I mean, do people still use filemanagers? |
| 14:50:53 | <tomsmeding> | I use 'ranger' sometimes |
| 14:50:58 | <tomsmeding> | usually 'ls' is enough |
| 14:51:27 | <maerwald[m]> | Yeah, fish has so good completion that I don't bother most of the time |
| 14:51:34 | <tomsmeding> | that |
| 14:51:52 | <tomsmeding> | yay another fish user |
| 14:52:04 | <maerwald[m]> | CWD aware completion |
| 14:52:27 | <tomsmeding> | why is the $PWD variable named PWD and not CWD |
| 14:52:48 | <abastro> | "Who uses file managers" windows user: |
| 14:52:59 | <tomsmeding> | abastro: we were talking about linux |
| 14:53:50 | <maerwald[m]> | Powershell has pretty good completion too |
| 14:54:25 | <tomsmeding> | 80 to 90% of the time I'm looking at terminals full screen (heck, even my irc client runs in the terminal); 9.9 to 19.9% of the time looking at browser; 0.1% remainder looking at some other random app |
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| 14:55:41 | <abastro> | Sorry that I use vscode |
| 14:56:06 | <maerwald[m]> | abastro: did you upgrade the haskell extension? |
| 14:56:11 | <abastro> | Yes |
| 14:56:18 | <maerwald[m]> | Does it work? |
| 14:56:22 | <abastro> | It does |
| 14:56:33 | <maerwald[m]> | That's a surprise xD |
| 14:56:41 | <tomsmeding> | :') |
| 14:56:43 | <abastro> | Well, it is a bit slower than before, but it at least works |
| 14:57:13 | <maerwald[m]> | Yeah, runs more processes on start |
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| 14:59:45 | <abastro[m]> | I wonder how looking at terminal works |
| 15:00:01 | <abastro[m]> | Autocomplete never work well for me, as I always forget what exists |
| 15:00:11 | <tomsmeding> | <tab><tab> gives listing :p |
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| 15:00:21 | <tomsmeding> | also fish autocomplete is just so much nicer than bash autocomplete |
| 15:00:25 | <tomsmeding> | I hear that zsh is nice too |
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| 15:00:52 | <abastro> | I see, hmm |
| 15:00:58 | <abastro> | For me that prints too many |
| 15:01:09 | <tomsmeding> | also fish autofills (but doesn't commit yet) from history |
| 15:01:14 | <maerwald[m]> | Maybe ghcup could use winery instead of parsing yaml every time |
| 15:01:18 | <maerwald[m]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/winery |
| 15:01:38 | <tomsmeding> | so if you've ran 'cd a/b/c' some time and you type 'cd a', it appends '/b/c' in grey font which you can commit with <rightarrow> |
| 15:02:07 | <abastro> | I see, fish shell could be nice |
| 15:02:14 | <tomsmeding> | and these autofills are CWD aware, so if the argument existed in the file system when you ran it in the history, fish remembers that and only autofills it if it now exists too |
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| 15:02:23 | <tomsmeding> | removes quite a few false positives |
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| 15:02:46 | <maerwald[m]> | I actually don't like fish-the-shell-language |
| 15:02:59 | <maerwald[m]> | But the default config and completion is unbeatable |
| 15:03:03 | tomsmeding | writes shell scripts in bash still |
| 15:03:04 | <maerwald[m]> | Zsh is just a mess |
| 15:03:39 | <tomsmeding> | despite the fact that fish is supposed to be a nicer language to write actual scripts in |
| 15:03:48 | <abastro> | XD "nicer language" |
| 15:03:49 | <maerwald[m]> | And given that I type dangerous stuff into a shell, I don't want it to be messy |
| 15:04:18 | <maerwald[m]> | tomsmeding: many things you can do in a single bash line, you need several in fish |
| 15:04:28 | <maerwald[m]> | That breaks history |
| 15:04:36 | <abastro> | Perhaps I have too many directories on $HOME |
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| 15:04:40 | <tomsmeding> | I know fairly well how bash quoting and word splitting works, at least with the idioms that I use, and I _require_ knowing precisely how that stuff works when doing dangerous stuff :p |
| 15:05:09 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: fish lacks <<< which is super annoying, especially for one-liners :p |
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| 15:06:11 | <tomsmeding> | bash <(sed 's/\.md$/.html/' <<<"$fname") is just a lot shorter than fish (echo "$fname" | sed 's/\.md$/.html/' | psub) |
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| 15:06:57 | <abastro> | Complex commands woh |
| 15:07:37 | <tomsmeding> | this stuff is useful with loops :p |
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| 15:10:48 | <maerwald[m]> | So sad yi is dead |
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| 15:21:59 | <dmj`> | maerwald[m]: emacs won't let you down |
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| 15:24:12 | <maerwald[m]> | dmj`: no thanks, already had RSI xD |
| 15:24:45 | <maerwald[m]> | And I'm quite happy with linux as my main OS |
| 15:26:09 | <abastro> | emacs and OS? |
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| 15:27:28 | <maerwald[m]> | But I think an editor in the style of xmonad architecture would be cool. Without scripting nonsense |
| 15:28:12 | <dmj`> | maerwald[m]: heavier keys helped my RSI, shock absorbers. |
| 15:28:19 | hololeap_ | is now known as hololeap |
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| 15:30:05 | <maerwald[m]> | dmj`: For me the opposite was true. Using red cherry mx switches |
| 15:30:27 | <maerwald[m]> | Even have gateron white |
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| 15:30:46 | <maerwald[m]> | They trigger if you sneeze |
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| 15:46:57 | <monochrom> | <A> qwertyuiopasdfghjkl <B> Your cat? <A> No, I sneezed |
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| 15:50:15 | <maerwald> | yeah, gateron white actuation force is 35gf |
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| 15:50:37 | <maerwald> | only flat laptop key switches have lower |
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| 15:56:23 | <worldhelloworld1> | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/womt9nSr/ |
| 15:58:49 | <worldhelloworld1> | the order of function application is basically reversed in the above solution with recursion - just wondering how to go about it with 3 (or more?) functions |
| 15:59:04 | <dmj`> | worldhelloworld1: the altMap' definition doesn't actually apply f' to x |
| 16:00:00 | <worldhelloworld1> | it does - the first function is applied - with the next iteration f' will be applied, no? |
| 16:01:49 | <worldhelloworld1> | check the reversed order for function application , ie, `f x : altMap' f' f xs` |
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| 16:02:24 | <dmj`> | oh I'm sorry, you're right, didn't see the flip there |
| 16:02:39 | <dmj`> | cool |
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| 16:03:29 | <worldhelloworld1> | np, just wondering if there is an elegant way to do the same with 3 functions alternating - but struggling to think about it in a recursive/elegant manner |
| 16:03:55 | <dsal> | > let am fs = zipWith ($) (cycle fs) in am [(*10), (*100), (*1000)] [1..10] |
| 16:03:57 | <lambdabot> | [10,200,3000,40,500,6000,70,800,9000,100] |
| 16:04:09 | <abastro[m]> | Wdym order is reversed? |
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| 16:05:46 | <worldhelloworld1> | abastro[m] - the order of function application in the second equation |
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| 16:07:11 | <worldhelloworld1> | dsal - yea could always use zipWith but trying to think recursion instead - looking for elegance, if any possible |
| 16:07:20 | <dsal> | @src zipWith |
| 16:07:20 | <lambdabot> | zipWith f (a:as) (b:bs) = f a b : zipWith f as bs |
| 16:07:20 | <lambdabot> | zipWith _ _ _ = [] |
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| 16:09:42 | <worldhelloworld1> | is it possible to achieve the same using a similar structure to the 2 functions described above? without reporting to builtin functions like zipWith |
| 16:10:27 | <dsal> | Your function above is very similar to zipWIth already. |
| 16:11:42 | <dsal> | :t zipWith ($) (cycle [(*10), (*100), (*1000)]) |
| 16:11:44 | <lambdabot> | Num c => [c] -> [c] |
| 16:11:53 | <dsal> | The only thing I did, was use zipWith to make the above. |
| 16:12:11 | <monochrom> | threesome f g h (x:xs) = f x : threesome g h f xs ? |
| 16:12:18 | <worldhelloworld1> | i would like to believe it's the usual recursion approach until exhaustion, ok let's say one doesn't want to use zipWith |
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| 16:12:52 | <dsal> | If you don't want to use zipWith, you could reinvent it trivially, as lambdabot showed you above. |
| 16:13:56 | <worldhelloworld1> | monochrom - that looks incredibly simple! |
| 16:14:21 | <dmj`> | worldhelloworld1: what's wrong with cycling the [a -> b] ? |
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| 16:15:24 | <monochrom> | I guess it's becasue I learend group theory. |
| 16:15:31 | <dsal> | haha |
| 16:16:00 | <dsal> | worldhelloworld1: Since you know the first list will be cycled, you could do the cycling yourself manually and use the thing where you reinvented map. |
| 16:16:02 | <worldhelloworld1> | lol ..... nothing wrong I think , just was looking for a particular approach |
| 16:16:19 | <monochrom> | From "f g" to "g f" is a permutation of 2 elements, you could read it as "flip" but you could read it as "rotate". For 2 elements they coincide. |
| 16:16:21 | <dsal> | map itself wouldn't work because you need to rotate the functions. |
| 16:16:39 | <monochrom> | So now just come up with a 3-element permutation that represents "rotate". |
| 16:17:27 | <worldhelloworld1> | yepp that is it - let me try in my ghci since I don't know how to use the bot here |
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| 16:27:46 | <worldhelloworld1> | thanks! worked - don't know how i couldn't think of it when it was so deceptively simple .... monochrom .... thanks dsal too for the other approach |
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| 19:19:44 | <hololeap> | flag ghc-patched-unboxed-bytecode; description: The GHC version we link against supports unboxed sums and tuples in bytecode |
| 19:19:53 | <hololeap> | https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/commit/03e833b3427237061a11661da3b71aea882703f8 |
| 19:20:06 | <hololeap> | anyone know what this is talking about? |
| 19:20:35 | <hololeap> | like, which versions support this? |
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| 19:22:58 | <hololeap> | is it literally just referring to UnboxedTuples and UnboxedSums language extensions? so ghc >=8.2.1 ? |
| 19:23:20 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: this sounds relevant https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/15617 |
| 19:23:31 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: in particular this comment https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/15617#note_286380 |
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| 19:24:27 | <hololeap> | huh, ok |
| 19:24:41 | <tomsmeding> | (found by searching on "unboxed sums bytecode" in the ghc issue tracker :p ) |
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| 19:49:25 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i wasn't getting a quick response in #haskell-beginners so i am trying here, but feel free to tell me to get lost on this one. i'm making yet another attempt at learning haskell here and have defined a simple data structure: |
| 19:49:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | data V2 = { x :: Int, y :: Int } |
| 19:50:04 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | this is meant to be a vector over the integers. i've successfully defined a distance function and now i want to think about adding/subtracting etc these things |
| 19:50:20 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i would, of course, define add and subtract functions but |
| 19:50:42 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | can i tell rust V2 is an abelian group or something like that ? |
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| 19:51:00 | <tomsmeding> | s/rust/haskell/? |
| 19:51:24 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah sorry :) |
| 19:51:35 | <hololeap> | there are libraries that have more fine-tuned typeclasses for numbers, but in stock haskell, you are stuck with Num |
| 19:51:41 | <tomsmeding> | haskell has no type class for "abelian group", but it does have Num https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Prelude.html#t:Num |
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| 19:52:35 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: do you know how to make a type an instance of a type class? |
| 19:53:01 | <hololeap> | % :i Num |
| 19:53:10 | <tomsmeding> | yahb is dead |
| 19:53:22 | <hololeap> | :( |
| 19:53:25 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 19:53:58 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | tomsmeding: i mean i can look up the syntax, i understand that as being fairly equivalent to using generic types even if it isn't technically equivalent |
| 19:54:19 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: given your typo earlier, I take it you're at least somewhat familiar with rust? |
| 19:54:23 | <tomsmeding> | if so, type class ~= trait |
| 19:54:39 | <tomsmeding> | much more so than being similar to generics in C++/Go/Java |
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| 19:56:17 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah i can make rust do things |
| 19:56:28 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i am too dumb to program computers but i keep trying |
| 19:56:57 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: here's an example of a Num instance, in this case for Ratio, a type for fractions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/src/GHC-Real.html#line-495 |
| 19:57:03 | <tomsmeding> | ignore the SPECIALIZE |
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| 19:57:42 | <tomsmeding> | the '(Integral a) =>' is a _superclass constraint_: that header says that 'Ratio a', for any type 'a', is an instance of Num (with the below implementation) _if_ 'a' is an instance of Integral |
| 19:57:57 | <tomsmeding> | in your case, V2 doesn't have any type parameters, so it would just be 'instance Num V2 where' |
| 19:58:12 | <hololeap> | a typeclass is similar to an interface from Java. it basically means "this type must implement these functions", so if you wanted to write a Num instance for V2, you would need to write definitions for (+), (-), (*), etc |
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| 19:58:37 | <tomsmeding> | furthermore, the :% is actually the constructor of Ratio -- don't be fooled by the fact that it's written like an infix operator |
| 19:59:07 | <hololeap> | but there is some hand waving. haskell can't enforce rules such as the commutativity of (+), so it's up to the programmer to do it correctly |
| 19:59:32 | <tomsmeding> | (similarly to Rust, actually) |
| 19:59:56 | <hololeap> | hence why quite a few typeclasses come with a set of rules that you are supposed to make sure are enforced in your instances |
| 20:00:23 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | can we rename "programmer" to "denial of service victim" ? |
| 20:00:37 | <tomsmeding> | because there's too much to remember? :D |
| 20:00:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah it's all just too much |
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| 20:01:19 | <tomsmeding> | suggestion: write an instance of Eq for your V2 |
| 20:01:39 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i was starting to try to define (+) |
| 20:01:52 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and... i am fighting maybe with how haskell handles parens or something ? |
| 20:01:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | (+) :: V2 -> V2 -> V2 |
| 20:02:13 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | (+) a b = V2 (x a + x b) (y a + y b) |
| 20:02:15 | <tomsmeding> | what are you writing? Parens with infix operators can be somewhat confusing if you're a haskell beginner |
| 20:02:28 | <tomsmeding> | hm that looks okay actually |
| 20:02:55 | <tomsmeding> | _oh_ |
| 20:03:05 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | haskell complains about the second + which is relaly confusing |
| 20:03:17 | <tomsmeding> | you're writing this as a top-level function, not in a Num instance, so you're shadowing the standard library (+) here |
| 20:03:39 | <tomsmeding> | so both +'es in your definition now refer to your own V2 + |
| 20:03:43 | <tomsmeding> | which isn't going to type check :p |
| 20:03:54 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah i was kinda trying to overload |
| 20:04:06 | <tomsmeding> | haskell doesn't do ad-hoc overloading like C++ |
| 20:04:19 | <geekosaur> | you have to define it as part of the instance, not as an "overload" |
| 20:04:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | lol thank the floppy disk gods |
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| 20:04:24 | <tomsmeding> | in order to overload (+) for a type T, you need to make T an instance of the class that (+) comes from |
| 20:04:31 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. you'll have to make V2 an instance of Num |
| 20:04:53 | <tomsmeding> | instance Num V2 where \n (+) a b = ... |
| 20:05:09 | <geekosaur> | remember indentation |
| 20:05:11 | <tomsmeding> | (a line break and indentation instead of \n) |
| 20:05:15 | <tomsmeding> | yes lol |
| 20:05:46 | <tomsmeding> | minor readability hack: this is also allowed: instance Num V2 where a + b = ... |
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| 20:06:15 | <geekosaur> | and all the other methods of Num, granting you may not care about some of them so you might simply define them as `undefined` |
| 20:06:23 | <geekosaur> | (thinking of (*) in particular) |
| 20:06:33 | <tomsmeding> | well, you can also just omit them, and GHC will spawn lots of warnings |
| 20:06:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so i am telling haskell that V2 is a Num |
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| 20:06:37 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 20:06:45 | <tomsmeding> | but warnings are not errors |
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| 20:07:19 | <tomsmeding> | (though this does indicate that Num is probably too large a class -- as you already indicated, it would've been nicer if there was an "abelian group" class) |
| 20:07:56 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | as an outsider it seems like the concepts of group, magma etc are senseless to name |
| 20:08:06 | <geekosaur> | Num is Ring + fromInteger + signum, arguably. (one could also argue abs, but could also argue abs follows from Ring) |
| 20:08:09 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | one should simply say commutative, has identity, etc at a particulate level |
| 20:08:20 | <hololeap> | there is "numeric-prelude" although it's pretty arcane: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/numeric-prelude-0.4.3.3/docs/Algebra-Additive.html |
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| 20:08:59 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: right, though "commutative" is kinda odd to have as a type class, because it doesn't add any new _methods_/_members_; and haskell type classes cannot enforce laws actively |
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| 20:09:40 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah but lack of law enforcement is a language flaw |
| 20:10:08 | <geekosaur> | not really, unless your language has a metalanguage built in |
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| 20:10:21 | <tomsmeding> | it's not a flaw, it's a tradeoff |
| 20:10:38 | <geekosaur> | but then your metalanguage needs a metametalanguage to prove things on the metalanguage level… |
| 20:10:43 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | if i ever understand how to program computers, my language will have infinitely recursive metalanguages |
| 20:10:52 | <hololeap> | enforcing commutivity would require dependent types at the very least, I would think |
| 20:10:54 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i will define the y languinator |
| 20:10:57 | <geekosaur> | there's one already, Heard's Omega |
| 20:11:05 | <tomsmeding> | if you care more about statically enforced correctness, not having it is a flaw; if you care more about implementability of the language or usability for programmers, _having_ it would be a flaw |
| 20:11:15 | <tomsmeding> | there is a place for Agda and Idris, and there is a place for Haskell |
| 20:11:23 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | geekosaur: lol google doesn't know what this is |
| 20:11:23 | <tomsmeding> | there is also a place for Go |
| 20:11:37 | <geekosaur> | sorry I meant Sheard |
| 20:11:44 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: "infinitely recursive metalanguages" that sounds suspiciously like a dependently-typed language |
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| 20:12:13 | <geekosaur> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A9mega |
| 20:12:16 | <hololeap> | yeah Idris actually does do this, but it sacrifices performance |
| 20:12:32 | <hololeap> | if I understand correctly |
| 20:13:02 | <geekosaur> | yes. everything comes at a price |
| 20:13:12 | <geekosaur> | the question is whether you're willing to pay the price |
| 20:13:37 | <geekosaur> | there are still arguments going on over dependent haskell because many haskellers are not convinced the price is worth it |
| 20:13:51 | <hololeap> | haskell has good performance and a good track record, and gives you reasonable guarantees with its type system |
| 20:13:54 | <geekosaur> | whereas its developer thinks it can be written while minimizing the price |
| 20:14:15 | <geekosaur> | (but forgets that, once it's out there it will be used, anbd then everyone will be forced to pay the price) |
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| 20:14:52 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | anyway so i will work out the instance syntax momentarily, but it looks like the major answer here is that |
| 20:15:19 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | even if i told haskell that V2 was an abelian group, it wouldn't get me anything at compile time as compared to just defining an add function, a subtraction function, etc |
| 20:15:28 | <tomsmeding> | that's right |
| 20:15:40 | × | _ht quits (~quassel@231-169-21-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:15:58 | <tomsmeding> | GHC will not complain if you write this: instance Eq V2 where _ == _ = True ; _ /= _ = True |
| 20:16:02 | <hololeap> | it would, however, inform you and anyone looking at your code of what it's supposed to do. there are also test suites that can check this kind of thing |
| 20:16:05 | <tomsmeding> | which is obvious nonsense, and violates the laws |
| 20:16:15 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hololeap: yeah it's effectively a comment |
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| 20:17:03 | <tomsmeding> | indeed, there are generic property tests written for quite a few of the standard classes: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/checkers-0.6.0/docs/Test-QuickCheck-Classes.html |
| 20:17:13 | <tomsmeding> | (not for Num because the Num laws are kind of badly specified anyway) |
| 20:17:34 | <hololeap> | it has more function than a comment |
| 20:18:11 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so you can heuristically check |
| 20:18:51 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | wow neither google scholar nor google know what heard's omega is |
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| 20:19:21 | <geekosaur> | I told you earlier, I meant sheard. and sent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A9mega |
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| 20:20:05 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | geekosaur: my bad i missed that, scrollback issue on my part |
| 20:20:42 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i like the idea of a type function, that's interesting |
| 20:21:09 | <tomsmeding> | @let type family F where F Int = Bool ; F Bool = Int |
| 20:21:10 | <lambdabot> | /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:156:9: error: |
| 20:21:11 | <lambdabot> | • Number of parameters must match family declaration; expected 0 |
| 20:21:11 | <lambdabot> | • In the type family declaration for ‘F’ |
| 20:21:18 | <tomsmeding> | @let type family F a where F Int = Bool ; F Bool = Int |
| 20:21:19 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 20:21:26 | <tomsmeding> | > True :: F Int |
| 20:21:27 | <lambdabot> | True |
| 20:21:31 | <tomsmeding> | that's a type function in Haskell :p |
| 20:22:21 | <geekosaur> | we don't have generalized type functions though, just what amounts ot lookup tables |
| 20:22:27 | <maerwald> | tomsmeding: playground is down? |
| 20:22:37 | <tomsmeding> | rip? |
| 20:22:54 | <hololeap> | but honestly, we can just look at the code and see if (+) is commutative or not and move on. this shouldn't be something to get hung up on |
| 20:22:59 | <maerwald> | 502 |
| 20:23:33 | <tomsmeding> | "Apr 30 14:31:35 play-haskell systemd[1]: tom-pastebin-haskell.service: Deactivated successfully." O.o |
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| 20:25:49 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | hololeap: are you talking to me? |
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| 20:27:43 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: lol earlyoom killed the server |
| 20:27:49 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: I think hololeap was, yes |
| 20:28:26 | <maerwald> | tomsmeding: huh |
| 20:28:36 | <maerwald> | isn't memory constrained already? |
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| 20:29:02 | <tomsmeding> | memory of spawned bwrap processes should be constrained, the server itself can still crap out, but only because I messed up, presumably |
| 20:29:08 | <tomsmeding> | question is, wtf happened |
| 20:29:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | well i did define (+) if you scholl up a little ways but i can paste again if someone really wants. this was resolved i thought by making V2 an instance of Num |
| 20:29:50 | tomsmeding | was momentarily afraid someone had hacked through the bwrap defences and had deactivated the service as a joke, but luckily no such thing |
| 20:30:28 | <maerwald> | imo it's more likely for someone to hack a haskell lib than to hack bwrap |
| 20:30:36 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
| 20:31:04 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: any inspiration how I can set things up that next time this happens, I have more info than, well, zero |
| 20:31:36 | <tomsmeding> | (in any case, server is running again) |
| 20:31:44 | <maerwald> | prometheus? |
| 20:31:52 | <tomsmeding> | ._. |
| 20:32:02 | <maerwald> | yes, there's a GHC plugin for it even |
| 20:32:57 | <maerwald> | @hackage prometheus-metrics-ghc |
| 20:32:57 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prometheus-metrics-ghc |
| 20:33:02 | <maerwald> | @hackage prometheus-proc |
| 20:33:02 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prometheus-proc |
| 20:33:47 | <maerwald> | @hackage wai-middleware-prometheus |
| 20:33:47 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-middleware-prometheus |
| 20:33:53 | <maerwald> | I've used those |
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| 20:35:07 | <tomsmeding> | right the first I looked at recently, which I used as inspiration for how to code this :p https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-gc-hook |
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| 20:36:23 | <tomsmeding> | hm right |
| 20:37:32 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i don't suppose there is a way of saying "passthrough" in haskell? |
| 20:38:19 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | for example Num wants me to define fromInteger, and so i would like to say that: |
| 20:38:49 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | fromInteger a = V2 (fromInteger x a) (fromInteger y a) |
| 20:38:58 | <tomsmeding> | not really |
| 20:39:06 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so it would be nice to say fromInteger a = passthrough fromInteger a |
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| 20:39:59 | <tomsmeding> | shouldn't that be `V2 (fromInteger a) (fromInteger a)` |
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| 20:40:26 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | a is V2 isn't it? |
| 20:40:38 | <tomsmeding> | there's a bunch of ways in which you can try to golf that code, but ultimately, not really nicely |
| 20:40:51 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: no, a :: Integer, because fromInteger :: Num a => Integer -> a |
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| 20:41:08 | <tomsmeding> | and even if it was a V2, it would've been `fromInteger (x a)`, not `fromInteger x a` ;) |
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| 20:41:46 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ah you are right... so then there is no method of doing fromInteger... can i say unimplemented or something? what do i do here |
| 20:41:53 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | you can't map from a single integer to an integer pair |
| 20:41:56 | <tomsmeding> | = error "not implemented" |
| 20:42:11 | <tomsmeding> | I repeat, the Num class is kind of too large |
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| 20:58:24 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | tomsmeding: what class would you suggest? |
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| 20:58:43 | <geekosaur> | there isn't one unless you switch to one of the numeric preludes |
| 20:58:50 | <geekosaur> | Num wasn't really well thought out |
| 20:58:51 | <tomsmeding> | segfaultfizzbuzz: I meant that there are arguments why the Num class should be split up |
| 20:58:55 | <tomsmeding> | what geekosaur says |
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| 21:01:07 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so it sounds like i am trying to push the envelope too much here and perhaps should just be happy with an add function, and move on...? |
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| 21:01:49 | <geekosaur> | you could just do `error "not meaningful"` and call it a day |
| 21:04:34 | <hololeap> | it depends on if you want to find the perfect typeclass for your type, or if you want to continue learning the other basics of the language |
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| 21:17:48 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ok i almost have this typeclass implemented. abs a = V2 (Prelude.abs x a) (Prelude.abs y a) |
| 21:18:10 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | somehow haskell isn't happy with that or variations i have tried and considered obvious |
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| 21:18:34 | <geekosaur> | do you want that, or do you want to use your distance function (abs would be distance from V2 0 0) |
| 21:18:44 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | Num mandates that i return a V2 |
| 21:18:56 | <geekosaur> | mm, right |
| 21:19:03 | <geekosaur> | in any case you're missing parens |
| 21:19:19 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah i find haskell parens to be counter intuitive |
| 21:19:24 | <geekosaur> | abs a = V2 (abs (x a)) (abs (y a)) |
| 21:19:53 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ha, it was a parens problem |
| 21:19:56 | <geekosaur> | shouldn't need Prelude there unless you have again defined it outside the instance declaration |
| 21:20:10 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ghci complains about abs being ambiguous unless i do that |
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| 21:21:37 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | well this is fun, the Num typeclass is working :-D |
| 21:21:45 | <geekosaur> | then you have slipped it outside the instance definition again |
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| 21:22:15 | <geekosaur> | make sure your indentation is correct. or use braces if you don't want to use indentation |
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| 21:24:17 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ah interesting re indentation |
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| 21:24:48 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | thanks for your help folks, tic tac toe is on it's way ;) bbl |
| 21:24:53 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | its way |
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| 21:51:27 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: ok installed some basic metrics, let's see if it happens again |
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| 22:32:09 | <Bulby[m]> | any good configuration libraries... tomland doesn't support dotted keys as tables 😭 |
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| 23:04:14 | <Sgeo> | Language with no typeclasses but algebraic effects. Should I try to fake typeclasses so I can do profunctor optics, or should I keep trying (and likely failing) to find a more idiomatic encoding of optics? |
| 23:05:57 | <EvanR> | typeclasses are pretty cool |
| 23:06:10 | <EvanR> | I always want them when they're not around |
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| 23:10:28 | <Sgeo> | I think I can fake typeclasses well enough, but there's also no good type synonyms yet :( |
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| 23:15:40 | <hpc> | specifically, i always find myself wanting Monad |
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| 23:16:15 | <hpc> | working with promises makes me feel like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkdyU_eUm1U |
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| 23:19:41 | <abastro[m]> | XD |
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| 23:20:07 | <abastro[m]> | <del>at least there is half broken async await</del> |
| 23:20:21 | <EvanR> | also +, <, other math operations for things not int or double |
| 23:20:38 | <EvanR> | or similar to |
| 23:20:41 | <Sgeo> | Why is Profunctor's method first' and not first ? |
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| 23:21:01 | <EvanR> | first is in Arrow already |
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| 23:38:12 | <monochrom> | It is not the first first. >:) |
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| 23:41:59 | <dsal> | first to me is a bifunctor function. |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-04-30.