Logs on 2022-05-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:49 | <Bulby[m]> | with tomland would some creative thinking be able to use hardcoded as an arbitrary extra field? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tomland-1.3.3.1/docs/Toml-Codec-Combinator-Custom.html |
| 00:02:35 | Bulby[m] | sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/044744922a13e54e1d305aec61ab9f60ff48dd8c |
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| 00:32:36 | <abastro[m]> | What is toml? |
| 00:32:47 | <Bulby[m]> | toml's obvious markup lang |
| 00:33:03 | <Bulby[m]> | I think using `<*>` and friends won't work |
| 00:33:26 | <Bulby[m]> | how would I combine the underlying read write functions in such a way that I can add an arbitrary field |
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| 00:35:24 | <abastro[m]> | Ah markup |
| 00:35:51 | <Bulby[m]> | tom's obvious minimal language oopsies |
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| 00:36:09 | <abastro[m]> | Obvious? |
| 00:36:22 | <Bulby[m]> | that's it's name ok 👺 |
| 00:36:23 | <Bulby[m]> | wait |
| 00:36:25 | <Bulby[m]> | wrong emoji |
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| 00:41:34 | <abastro[m]> | So this: https://toml.io/en/ |
| 00:41:37 | <abastro[m]> | Interesting |
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| 00:42:54 | <abastro[m]> | <del>Eww tables</del> |
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| 00:48:39 | <abastro[m]> | `Codec` type seems unfit for applicative operation over writing. |
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| 00:56:05 | <abastro[m]> | Bidirectional one has |
| 00:56:05 | <abastro[m]> | `f ()` |
| 00:56:05 | <abastro[m]> | `f a -> f b -> f (a, b)` |
| 00:56:05 | <abastro[m]> | But not viable applicative instance. Hmm |
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| 01:22:01 | <cdsmith> | I think the Foldable instance for Data.Functor.Compose should define `length`. Currently it's left to the default impl, which walks through all elements and counts them one by one. It could be something like `length (Compose xs) = getSum (foldMap (Sum . length) xs)`, which would at least avoid traversing the inner containers. |
| 01:23:09 | <cdsmith> | Did I miss something here? |
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| 01:33:13 | <cdsmith> | Okay, I found a better place to pontificate: https://github.com/haskell/core-libraries-committee/issues/57 |
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| 02:54:49 | <dmj`> | haskell doesn't really have any OCR bindings huh |
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| 03:25:04 | <dknite> | Are there some live coding streams that use Haskell available? I have found them to be very effective for learning. |
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| 14:35:03 | <raehik> | is there a way for me to get the length of a type-level symbol, as a type-level nat? |
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| 14:35:37 | <hpc> | like (length String) = 6, (length Int) = 3? |
| 14:35:56 | <raehik> | No, like `Length "bla" = 3` |
| 14:37:29 | <raehik> | initial googling has pointed me to the generic-lens author's work -- but no Length function https://blog.csongor.co.uk/symbol-parsing-haskell/ |
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| 14:39:05 | <raehik> | I will gladly ignore any Unicode pitfalls etc because it's intended for ASCII only |
| 14:39:20 | <raehik> | so Char = 1 |
| 14:40:00 | <raehik> | there is UnconsSymbol but I don't understand how to "pattern match" on it |
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| 14:43:00 | <abastro[m]> | One could make type family for that I think |
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| 14:44:49 | <raehik> | abastro[m]: That's what I'm trying. Can't figure out how to write this on type level: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/TP9JdYKH |
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| 14:46:54 | <abastro[m]> | You need to make type family for each case statement |
| 14:47:12 | <abastro[m]> | It's going to be ugly, yea |
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| 14:48:17 | <raehik> | oooh I think I get it |
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| 14:53:07 | <raehik> | this feels like it should work, but I'm getting "Type instead of (some kind)" errors https://paste.tomsmeding.com/t2SC6gQU |
| 14:54:53 | <abastro[m]> | Typelevel plus might be different operator |
| 14:55:08 | <abastro[m]> | Oh it is same operator |
| 14:56:03 | <abastro[m]> | Hmm, could you post entire error |
| 14:56:19 | <raehik> | Is Maybe not polykinded? |
| 14:56:22 | <tomsmeding> | what's the definition of UnconsSymbol |
| 14:56:30 | <raehik> | Yes to both, one sec |
| 14:57:00 | <tomsmeding> | raehik: interesting, Maybe seems not polykinded |
| 14:57:54 | <raehik> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/lGwPqmPP |
| 14:57:54 | <tomsmeding> | in any case, `:k Maybe` yields `* -> *` whereas e.g. `:k Proxy` yields `k -> *` |
| 14:58:15 | <tomsmeding> | yeah Maybe is not kind-polymorphic here |
| 14:58:31 | <raehik> | that's weird, how does UnconsSymbol work there? |
| 14:58:42 | <tomsmeding> | what's the definition of UnconsSymbol |
| 14:59:01 | <raehik> | type family UnconsSymbol (a :: Symbol) :: Maybe (Char, Symbol) |
| 14:59:10 | <tomsmeding> | the _definition_, not its declaration :p |
| 14:59:12 | <raehik> | :k UnconsSymbol |
| 14:59:13 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:59:13 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘UnconsSymbol’ |
| 14:59:27 | <tomsmeding> | put @let before the type family |
| 15:00:03 | <raehik> | sorry, what do you mean? `@let UnconsSymbol` in ghci doesn't work |
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| 15:00:17 | <tomsmeding> | oh I thought you intended to do it here in lambdabot |
| 15:00:33 | <raehik> | ah yes please, but I dunno how to import either xd |
| 15:00:34 | <tomsmeding> | oh wait, UnconsSymbol is not a closed type family? |
| 15:00:54 | <raehik> | uhhh I *think* it's internal, I can't see the def in GHC.TypeLits |
| 15:01:07 | <tomsmeding> | OH ITS IN BASE |
| 15:01:15 | <tomsmeding> | lol sorry |
| 15:01:38 | <tomsmeding> | that's super dumb |
| 15:02:09 | <raehik> | is it really polykind Maybe for that func, but the exported Maybe isn't polykind? |
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| 15:02:38 | <tomsmeding> | nah it imports Maybe from Data.Maybe |
| 15:02:52 | <abastro[m]> | Ugh |
| 15:03:14 | <raehik> | :k 'Just |
| 15:03:15 | <abastro[m]> | Why is `(_, s) :: *` |
| 15:03:15 | <lambdabot> | a -> Maybe a |
| 15:03:24 | <raehik> | yeah, that's where I'm confused |
| 15:03:34 | <tomsmeding> | it needs to be `'(_, s)` |
| 15:03:48 | <tomsmeding> | try making it `type family SymbolLength' (a :: Maybe '( Char, Symbol)) :: Natural where` |
| 15:03:55 | <tomsmeding> | still errors, but the error is somewhat more expected |
| 15:04:01 | <raehik> | Oh my god |
| 15:04:08 | <abastro[m]> | Oh wait. tuple lol |
| 15:04:08 | <raehik> | Type-level tuple needs '() |
| 15:04:10 | <raehik> | LOL |
| 15:04:50 | <dknite> | Are there any Haskell programming live streams available? Like current or perhaps old archived ones? |
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| 15:05:03 | <abastro[m]> | Haskell messed up by having separate namespace for types and values |
| 15:05:04 | <abastro[m]> | And now they are trying to merge |
| 15:05:21 | <tomsmeding> | "messed up" is subjective |
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| 15:06:29 | <raehik> | thank you very much for the help abastro[m] tomsmeding ! |
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| 15:06:38 | <hpc> | as much as studying computer history makes it look like all the good ideas are old and constantly reinvented, dependent types are in fact very new |
| 15:07:08 | <hpc> | so back when haskell itself was still new, nobody really knew this was going to be where language design was headed |
| 15:07:49 | <tomsmeding> | here's an opinion about DH that disagrees with abastro[m] :p https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2022/04/30?id=534502#trid534502 |
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| 15:16:53 | <abastro[m]> | tomsmeding: wdym? I do not mean DH would be great |
| 15:16:56 | <abastro[m]> | I personally dislike DH |
| 15:17:18 | <abastro[m]> | But having common namespace for both types and values is incredibly confusing for beginners |
| 15:17:26 | <tomsmeding> | abastro[m]: ah I interpreted your dislike of the separate namespaces as dislike of the DH proposal |
| 15:17:44 | <tomsmeding> | s/common/separate/? |
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| 15:19:23 | <abastro[m]> | Ohhhhhhhh |
| 15:19:28 | <abastro[m]> | My brain lol |
| 15:19:53 | <abastro[m]> | Yea, haskell having separate namespace for types and values |
| 15:19:59 | <abastro[m]> | Which confuses beginners |
| 15:20:15 | <tomsmeding> | the [Int] != [17] thing |
| 15:20:15 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 15:21:28 | <abastro[m]> | [Int] and [17], indeed |
| 15:22:02 | <abastro[m]> | But also extends to e.g. () :: () |
| 15:22:18 | <abastro[m]> | Would look very cryptic to beginners |
| 15:22:39 | <tomsmeding> | nah, just alien face |
| 15:22:48 | <abastro[m]> | I guess `(1, 3) :: (Int, Double)` is quite common among languages so that one is more forgivable |
| 15:22:57 | <abastro[m]> | Xd |
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| 15:24:19 | <abastro[m]> | I have legit done `type List = []` couple of times |
| 15:24:43 | <tomsmeding> | I guess it helps with DataKinds quoting messes |
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| 15:26:02 | <abastro[m]> | Indeed |
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| 15:43:01 | <raehik> | You can't define a Map type family without doing defunctionalization "stuff", right? |
| 15:43:27 | <raehik> | you have to write lots of concrete type families instead |
| 15:47:10 | <tomsmeding> | no type-level lambdas |
| 15:47:43 | <abastro[m]> | No lifting to typelevel as well right |
| 15:47:51 | <tomsmeding> | of lambdas? |
| 15:47:58 | <tomsmeding> | DataKinds lifting is of data types, not expressions ;) |
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| 15:48:08 | <abastro[m]> | I wanted to lift arbitrary function to typelevel.. oh wait there is no way such thing would work |
| 15:48:25 | <raehik> | that's fine thought so, singletons all the more impressive |
| 15:48:38 | <abastro[m]> | Wish reification was easier, in that case I could go opposite |
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| 16:20:07 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | quick question: i have this: data Game = Game [Move] deriving (Show, Eq) |
| 16:20:26 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and then play :: Move -> Game -> Game play m (Game g) = g ++ [m] |
| 16:20:57 | <int-e> | segfaultfizzbuzz: that's missing a Game constructor |
| 16:21:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ah thaks |
| 16:21:44 | <int-e> | (and I'd consider reversing that list... m : g is constant time while g ++ [m] has to traverse all of g |
| 16:21:47 | <int-e> | ) |
| 16:22:19 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | are : and ++ equivalent ? |
| 16:22:33 | <int-e> | [m] ++ g = m : g |
| 16:22:43 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and, as a rule of thumb, it's best to grow lists from the end to the beginning...? |
| 16:22:48 | <int-e> | so as I said, the list would be reversed. |
| 16:23:18 | <int-e> | it's usually better to prepend than to append to lists |
| 16:23:28 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i see |
| 16:23:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ok thanks |
| 16:23:41 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | bye |
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| 17:03:32 | <raehik> | I've got a void datatype I'm using for Stuff and a typeclass instance for it that takes a value of it (and only uses the type info). Is there any way I can be really explicit that there's no value to bind, other than writing _ ? |
| 17:03:54 | <raehik> | I ask because I was kinda surprised I could bind it to a name in the first place |
| 17:05:46 | <monochrom> | The Proxy type. |
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| 17:07:25 | <monochrom> | For example Storable's "size :: a -> Int" is "a -> Int" for historical reason (back when people hadn't thought of Proxy). If redesigned today, it might be "size :: p a -> Int" such that the user can say "size ([] :: [Foo])" or "size (Proxy :: Proxy Foo)". |
| 17:08:03 | <raehik> | yeah, I get that. this typeclass is for term-level stuff, but this special case sees no need to store a value |
| 17:08:12 | <monochrom> | The Proxy type can be found in Data.Proxy |
| 17:08:13 | <raehik> | I was thinking something along the lines of EmptyCase, or however Void works |
| 17:08:41 | <raehik> | to be clear, the function needs to take an `a`. but I'm making an (safe) instance for a type which has no values |
| 17:09:46 | <raehik> | I can do `classFunc _ = ...`. but I'm new to this part of Haskell and wasn't sure if there was some extra explicit syntax for empty datatypes |
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| 17:42:48 | <Guest4981> | question - working through "haskell programming from first principles", I came across this in the currying chapter |
| 17:42:49 | <Guest4981> | Prelude> let curry f a b = f (a, b) |
| 17:42:49 | <Guest4981> | Prelude> :t curry |
| 17:42:50 | <Guest4981> | curry :: ((t1, t2) -> t) -> t1 -> t2 -> t |
| 17:42:50 | <Guest4981> | Prelude> :t fst |
| 17:42:51 | <Guest4981> | fst :: (a, b) -> a |
| 17:42:51 | <Guest4981> | Prelude> :t curry fst |
| 17:42:52 | <Guest4981> | curry fst :: t -> b -> t |
| 17:42:52 | <Guest4981> | Prelude> fst (1, 2) |
| 17:42:53 | <Guest4981> | 1 |
| 17:42:53 | <Guest4981> | Prelude> curry fst 1 2 |
| 17:42:54 | <Guest4981> | 1 |
| 17:42:54 | <Guest4981> | How does ghci know that the first argument of the curry function is of type ((t1,t2)->t)? Is it through pattern matching? |
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| 17:45:30 | <[exa]> | Guest4981: the types get "compared" and completely matched before any code is executed, so that it's clear that the types of everyting are okay |
| 17:45:33 | <davean> | ts through inference, the type system has rules, theres one one way that those rules could be followed with that code |
| 17:45:38 | <monochrom> | Type inference notices that "f (a,b)" means f has to be a function, and it must accept a tuple argument. |
| 17:46:06 | <davean> | well thats 3 of us saying the same thing in different ways, can we get a fourth? |
| 17:46:32 | <monochrom> | Yes. http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/type-inference.html :) |
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| 17:47:02 | <davean> | Thats just someone not getting to the point |
| 17:47:08 | <Guest4981> | haha ok so it is pattern matching - very cool |
| 17:47:19 | <davean> | pattern matching is a specific thing |
| 17:47:22 | <Guest4981> | oh |
| 17:47:27 | <Guest4981> | so this falls under type inference? |
| 17:47:34 | <davean> | yes |
| 17:47:43 | <Guest4981> | whats the difference between this and pattern matching |
| 17:48:17 | <davean> | pattern matching deconstructs data at runtime and dispatches on the deconstruction. |
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| 17:48:42 | <Guest4981> | so it needs data constructors to be pattern matching? |
| 17:48:55 | <Guest4981> | or rather concrete values |
| 17:49:05 | <davean> | basicly. |
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| 17:49:23 | <Guest4981> | aha cool thanks |
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| 21:03:11 | <exarkun> | Which stdin-reading API will handle a BOM at the start? |
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| 21:05:27 | <hpc> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/System-IO.html#t:TextEncoding |
| 21:06:39 | <hpc> | there's some encodings you can explicitly set on the handle, or it looks like the encodings that matter have bom-aware variants |
| 21:06:59 | <hpc> | like utf16 will use what bom says, or you can set utf16le or utf16be explicitly |
| 21:10:39 | <exarkun> | ah, so just hSetEncoding first, ok (yea seems to work) |
| 21:10:41 | <exarkun> | thanks |
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| 21:38:03 | <jackdk> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/with-utf8 may be useful? |
| 21:42:06 | koz | is now known as koz_ |
| 21:42:08 | koz_ | is now known as koz |
| 21:42:16 | <koz> | @unmtl WriterT w Maybe |
| 21:42:17 | <lambdabot> | err: `WriterT w Maybe' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. Maybe (A, w)' |
| 21:42:22 | <koz> | @unmtl WriterT w Maybe a |
| 21:42:22 | <lambdabot> | Maybe (a, w) |
| 21:42:31 | <koz> | @unmtl MaybeT (Writer w) a |
| 21:42:32 | <lambdabot> | (Maybe a, w) |
| 21:43:23 | <exarkun> | withHandle does look like a pretty nice bit of functionality |
| 21:43:53 | <exarkun> | it doesn't explicitly say what it does with BOMs though |
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| 22:50:40 | <tswett> | Hey everyone. Are there any guidelines or documentation for how to implement showsPrec? |
| 22:52:42 | <hpc> | mostly just "don't" |
| 22:52:56 | <tswett> | That's one option :D |
| 22:53:06 | <hpc> | use deriving if you can |
| 22:53:21 | <hpc> | or some more suitable mechanism if you're going to be outputting json or whatever |
| 22:54:03 | <hpc> | you can try looking at existing instances in base |
| 22:54:13 | <hpc> | there might be something there |
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| 22:55:22 | <tswett> | Aha, I |
| 22:55:30 | <jackdk> | Show should be considered debugging information IMHO, so `deriving Show` is fine for almost everything. If you're showing something unshowable, you're gonna generate nonsense anyway so I don't worry about `showsPrec` in such instances |
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| 22:55:55 | <tswett> | *I just noticed that the documentation for showsPrec does in fact contain an example that seems pretty informative. |
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| 22:57:12 | <tswett> | That said, I'm implementing the SKI combinator calculus, and I'd like a function which produces output like "S (K S)" instead of "Apply (EAtom S) (Apply (EAtom K) (EAtom S))". |
| 22:57:32 | <tswett> | Maybe using that function as my Show instance is not a good idea. |
| 22:59:08 | <jackdk> | I generally call those functions `renderFoo :: Foo -> Text` |
| 23:00:01 | <EvanR> | make a pretty printer |
| 23:00:25 | <EvanR> | ghci may have a way to use your pretty printer instead of show? |
| 23:01:03 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.0.2/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html#using-a-custom-interactive-printing-function |
| 23:01:08 | <jackdk> | Though you may need to write something like showsPrec if you want minimal bracketing. Gonzales has a neat trick for making simple pretty printers that get parentheses right: https://www.haskellforall.com/2020/11/pretty-print-syntax-trees-with-this-one.html |
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| 23:02:24 | <tswett> | By the way, I haven't been in #haskell much since around 2004. Are emoji discouraged in this channel? |
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| 23:04:53 | <monochrom> | No, feel free to use emojis |
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| 23:06:04 | <EvanR> | emoji's a lot different now than in 2004, for instance we have :success_baby:, various animated rainbow memes, and that frog guy |
| 23:06:21 | <EvanR> | oops that's discord |
| 23:06:52 | <tswett> | 👍 |
| 23:08:22 | <jackdk> | I don't particularly like 'em, but I'm in the minority and there's no official rule against them or anything. Besides, I'm just one guy. |
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| 23:16:22 | × | xkuru quits (~xkuru@user/xkuru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:21:56 | <tswett> | In any case, thanks for the help, talk to y'all later 👋 |
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| 23:25:05 | <exarkun> | is it still an emoji if you just type out :slightly_smiling_face: |
| 23:26:43 | <jackdk> | Doesn't render that way for me, though other chat services seem to do taht |
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| 23:30:53 | <monochrom> | I guess I should have said "yes we discourage it". |
| 23:32:35 | <monochrom> | People take "not discouraged" to mean "use as much as possible" as opposed to "when it makes sense". |
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| 23:41:52 | <dons> | morning all |
| 23:42:00 | <EvanR> | is it still an emoji, ask wittgenstein |
| 23:42:06 | <dons> | i note ghc 9.4.x is ready for testing. exciting |
| 23:42:34 | <jackdk> | I look forward to taking my work repo beyond 8.10.7 one day |
| 23:42:56 | <geekosaur> | exciting unless you're a little tired of getting whipsawed by new releases (then again 9.4 doesn't seem to have much new) |
| 23:43:11 | <abastro[m]> | Will 9.4.x be more stable than 9.2.x |
| 23:43:34 | <geekosaur> | it shoukld be on windows in particular |
| 23:44:23 | <abastro[m]> | Ah, I wanted general stability :/ |
| 23:44:38 | <abastro[m]> | Perhaps the bug I am experiencing might magically fix itself |
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| 23:52:07 | <EvanR> | is the opposite of general stability colonel panic |
| 23:53:23 | <dons> | yeah i'm pondering using 9.4.x as the step off 8.10.7 |
| 23:54:24 | <Axman6> | time to rip the bandaid off |
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| 23:57:34 | <abastro[m]> | Anyway high hopes for 9.4.x :D |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-05-01.