Logs on 2022-05-14 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:08:18	<sm>	and then to produce useful results.. I have failed so far
00:08:54	<laalyn>	what was the profiler output?
00:09:07	<laalyn>	i'm still recompiling haskell and libs with profiler support
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00:21:51	<sm>	laalyn: just curious, how are you doing that ?
00:22:15	<sm>	I only just now managed to get useful profiles
00:22:18	<laalyn>	doing what specifically?
00:22:54	<sm>	are you using stack ... --profile ? or cabal ? I'd like to learn from your command line
00:23:21	<laalyn>	oh im just using ghc
00:23:21	<sm>	half an hour to get a profile, and I
00:23:31	<sm>	am pretty good at this stuff (according to me)
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00:23:56	<sm>	I believe this is at least 50% of why people say optimising haskell is hard
00:24:19	<laalyn>	well i need to rebuild all my haskell system libs in order to use ghc with -profile
00:24:34	<laalyn>	as im using Gentoo
00:24:47	<sm>	ghc -package split -prof -fprof-auto foo.hs, was that your command ?
00:25:45	<laalyn>	i was following the guide here: https://wiki.haskell.org/How_to_profile_a_Haskell_program#Enable_profiling_on_libraries
00:25:53	<laalyn>	so its ghc -O2 -prof -fprof-auto -rtsopts program
00:25:55	<EvanR>	yeah IntMaps are usually pretty good for emulating a sparse array, HashMap for string keys
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00:26:25	<EvanR>	sometimes some stray laziness can slow things down and a single well placed ! fixes it xD
00:26:47	<laalyn>	hmm so where would i place that
00:26:57	<laalyn>	because in another functional language using the same data structure is faster
00:27:05	<sm>	here's the profile I got: https://termbin.com/rliw. passing the baton.
00:27:16	<EvanR>	I'm suspicious that IntMap or HashMap are being used in elixir
00:27:25	<laalyn>	its a hash trie
00:27:33	<laalyn>	but they allow anything as the keys/values
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00:28:13	<EvanR>	in any case you have to identify the slowdown first
00:28:52	<laalyn>	sm: so most time is spent on dfs... very helpful
00:29:25	<laalyn>	it's difficult for me to identify the slowdown because the algorithms and data structures used are the exact same
00:29:35	<laalyn>	im guessing its due to lazy evaluation?
00:29:55	<EvanR>	that's also suspicious since elixir is a strict language with mutation, haskell isn't
00:30:16	<laalyn>	actually data structures in elixir are immutable
00:31:21	<EvanR>	in any case you need to look more closely than declare the two languages do the same thing
00:31:37	<EvanR>	when obviously they don't
00:32:04	sm	thinks most time is spent in lines 29 and 30
00:33:04	<EvanR>	another preliminary is to see what kind of performance diff there actually is
00:33:28	<laalyn>	sm: are you looking at the vector imp or map imp?
00:33:50	<sm>	just at your code and the profile
00:34:17	<laalyn>	which paste was it
00:34:46	<laalyn>	oh i see it was the vector imp
00:34:52	<laalyn>	lines 29-30 are just getting the input
00:34:55	<laalyn>	thats pretty fast
00:35:03	<EvanR>	in the vector version you use foldl (no prime)
00:35:12	<EvanR>	that might be introduced extreme laziness
00:35:15	<EvanR>	introducing
00:35:59	<EvanR>	nevermind, it's folding over 4 items
00:36:22	<laalyn>	shouldn't foldl be optimized into being strict when using -O2
00:36:32	<sm>	I could very well be wrong, and I don't understand the code. But it says 46% of individual time is spent in main
00:36:37	<EvanR>	it doesn't matter, since it's just 4 items
00:37:11	<EvanR>	but you can check that by reading core output
00:37:15	<laalyn>	well main contains the function call to search, which calls dfs
00:37:26	<laalyn>	so main holds everything
00:38:35	<sm>	here's the profile simplified by profiterole, FWIW:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/46aa635aa6de11d1d46220d2b44a8b0ce64efe1d)
00:39:00	<Henson>	just briefly looking over the code, there's a lot of use of tuples, and no strictness anywhere. Using foldl' will probably be better than foldl, trying to avoid tuples whenever possible, and strictly evaluating your data using seq or BangPatterns will probably help. Also there's a lot of list searching going on, which is probably slowing things down, too.
00:40:06	<EvanR>	tuples do be lazy
00:40:17	<EvanR>	but sometimes get optimized
00:41:57	<laalyn>	what should I replace tuples with
00:42:20	<EvanR>	in your Map version, you use Map Int Bool and Map Int Int
00:42:38	<EvanR>	IntMap has basically the same API and might (will probably) help
00:42:57	<laalyn>	i'll try that
00:42:58	<Henson>	according to the profile, a lot of time is spent in lines 15 to 17, where there's a foldl instead of foldl', and a whole bunch of tupes and recursion, which leads to a whole bunch of thunks that need to be held in memory and evaluated
00:42:59	<sm>	there could be a dozen or more perf issues in here eh. I would like to know how to systematically report them with tools though.
00:43:06	<EvanR>	only look at replacing tuples with strict tuples or putting in extra strictness if that's the problem
00:44:07	<laalyn>	Henson: i swapped the foldl with foldl' and there was no performance diff
00:44:15	<laalyn>	along with compiling with -O2
00:44:28	<EvanR>	the foldl is just to "loop" over 4 coordinate shifts
00:44:28	<Henson>	what I usually do is just place bangs everywhere (and switch from foldl to foldl') and see if that helps. If so, then slowly remove bangs until you find the one or more than make the difference
00:44:44	<Henson>	laalyn: ok
00:45:52	<laalyn>	also 15-17 is the recursive call so most time would be spent there anyway
00:46:13	<EvanR>	btw, Data.Map is the lazy version, i.e. the values in there won't be evaluated until necessary
00:46:23	<Henson>	yes, that's true
00:46:29	<EvanR>	Data.Map.Strict only stores evaluated
00:46:56	<EvanR>	might not matter in this case
00:47:00	<laalyn>	theoretically wouldn't DiffArray be the most performant?
00:47:18	<laalyn>	but i heard its slow because of underlying compiler workings
00:47:30	<EvanR>	for doing an IntMap, IntMap is best
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00:47:49	<laalyn>	DiffArray could be used to emulate C data structures
00:47:58	<laalyn>	updates would be O(1) and lookups would be O(1)
00:48:05	<EvanR>	haven't heard anything good about DiffArray, but I may be out of date
00:48:22	<laalyn>	i was reading around a bit and noticed a trend of sorts
00:48:34	<laalyn>	it seems like people have rejected the whole "Versioned Array" idea
00:48:39	<EvanR>	big O usually comes with a big "up to constant factor"
00:48:50	<laalyn>	or fat nodes
00:49:04	<laalyn>	fgl used to be implemented with this i think but then they switched to trees
00:49:09	<lechner>	Something happened to http://dev.stephendiehl.com/hask
00:50:12	<laalyn>	well a versioned array would only need to do a write to update array then a write to add version delta
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00:50:47	<EvanR>	it has to beat the IntMap which has a small number of levels
00:51:12	<EvanR>	aiui
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00:51:40	<EvanR>	actually if you go by big O, IntMap is also O(1) xD, where 1 = 64 bits
00:52:17	<EvanR>	still not convinced any of this is the real problem here
00:52:31	<EvanR>	it's usually unwanted laziness
00:52:43	Henson	is now known as HensonAway
00:53:09	<laalyn>	sooo what if u need to exceed 64 bits
00:53:58	<EvanR>	that would be a huge number of items
00:54:50	<EvanR>	and wouldn't make sense with Int keys anyway
00:55:57	<sm>	we're just optimising by trial and error, alas. I think my next move would to simplify the code a lot until there's a perf issue I can understand and fix
00:56:54	<EvanR>	yeah don't be afraid to write smaller functions and then compose them, ghc will inline everything
00:57:10	<laalyn>	ok, reimped with IntMap
00:57:12	<EvanR>	it might make profiling easier
00:57:26	<sm>	and add one small bit back at a time
00:57:36	<laalyn>	i used the strict api and got 0.2s speedup from 1.7s to 1.5s
00:57:49	<sm>	+1 EvanR
00:58:55	<sm>	-fprof-auto labels the functions, but there are very few of them, so the profile is not very precise
00:59:13	<sm>	you could manually annotate all the subexpressions for more detail, but easier (and better for the code) to name them as functions
00:59:47	<laalyn>	so the move is to make the profile more granular
01:00:20	<laalyn>	ill wait for my libs to finish compiling with profiling support then try that
01:00:27	<sm>	yes I think so
01:00:29	<EvanR>	you can also do a memory profile to see if there's a memory leak
01:00:33	<EvanR>	well, space leak
01:00:45	<sm>	and/or, start with simpler code, fix and add small bits
01:00:55	<EvanR>	because that won't help your speed, and also indicates an issue with the code
01:01:11	<laalyn>	hmm well theres really only one component to the code
01:01:14	<laalyn>	which is the dfs
01:01:44	<laalyn>	and thats where the slowdown is
01:01:52	<EvanR>	if a ball of mud is too slow, there's no much you can do about it
01:02:08	<sm>	it's only 15 lines, but that's a ton of complexity
01:02:26	<EvanR>	but I have hope you don't actually have a ball of mud
01:02:34	<laalyn>	what would that imply
01:02:39	<laalyn>	a ball of mud
01:02:55	<EvanR>	a monolithic block of code you can't identify any functional parts of
01:03:06	<EvanR>	it must all live or die together
01:03:23	<laalyn>	well i can fully understand what its doing
01:03:36	<laalyn>	its just one fold
01:03:52	<laalyn>	to do recursive dfs call and recv the updated visited array back
01:03:56	<EvanR>	i beg to differ
01:04:37	<laalyn>	so its not the data structures problem
01:04:51	<sm>	you don't understand the laziness/space usage I think
01:05:27	<laalyn>	would you like to see the code in Elixir
01:05:29	<laalyn>	maybe thats more readable
01:05:31	<EvanR>	I think your memory profile should show a big jump when you load the data, then stay flat for the whole run, then die
01:06:02	<EvanR>	if not, could indicate a misunderstanding of the code
01:06:02	<sm>	ps, presumably 10000 and 30000 iterations is what you expect ? If that sounds like too many, that's always a good place to start
01:06:20	<laalyn>	thats what i expect
01:06:28	<laalyn>	since input size is 100x100
01:06:36	<sm>	ok, just checking
01:06:42	<laalyn>	yeah no problem
01:07:20	<EvanR>	>it's just recursing and returning the updated visited array
01:07:34	<EvanR>	make sure you evaluate the update before recursing
01:07:48	<EvanR>	or else it may build up a 30000 long thunk
01:08:15	<laalyn>	vis' is the new visited array
01:08:19	<laalyn>	so i would add a bang to that?
01:08:22	<EvanR>	since it's explicitly recursive, it's not foldl's responsibility
01:09:26	<shiraeeshi>	some update on me trying to build https://github.com/well-typed/memory-usage-zurihac-2021
01:09:58	<shiraeeshi>	I've installed ghc-9.2.1-alpha2
01:10:02	<EvanR>	dfs r c adj !vis = -- try that alternative to the definition of dfs
01:10:36	<shiraeeshi>	reverted cabal.project to the unchanged state
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01:11:16	<shiraeeshi>	"cabal build" command gives me this error: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/xygZteig
01:11:52	<shiraeeshi>	it can't build OneTuple, base-compat, basement, blaze-builder
01:13:06	<shiraeeshi>	for OneTuple, the error says: Module ‘GHC.Tuple’ does not export ‘getSolo’
01:14:18	<shiraeeshi>	I've cloned OneTuple and looked at the source code, there is an import with conditional #ifdef
01:15:17	<shiraeeshi>	it executes the version under the condition:
01:15:18	<shiraeeshi>	#if MIN_VERSION_base(4,16,0)
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01:16:26	<shiraeeshi>	in case of base 4-16, it imports GHC.Tuple (Solo (Solo), getSolo)
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01:16:50	<shiraeeshi>	in case of base 4-15, it imports GHC.Tuple (Solo (Solo)) and then defines getSolo
01:17:45	<shiraeeshi>	this ghc-9.2.1-alpha2 has base-4.16, but it doesn't export getSolo
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01:18:27	<EvanR>	note that accumulating updates to a vector of Bool one at a time is likely to be real slow
01:18:35	<EvanR>	it copies the whole vector each time
01:19:24	<shiraeeshi>	if I comment out the part that import Solo and getSolo
01:19:33	<shiraeeshi>	*imports
01:20:04	<shiraeeshi>	and put the base-4.15 code that imports Solo and defines getSolo - it compiles
01:20:22	<monochrom>	When "Solo" is said so many times, one wonders if it's really solo...
01:21:03	<shiraeeshi>	so my question is: how did it work on the day of the presentation?
01:21:13	<EvanR>	that we are having library problems involving a 1 tuple, I bet node.js people feel redeemed
01:22:03	<EvanR>	"look haskell can't even get 1 tuples to work. Don't even start with left padding"
01:22:59	<monochrom>	Do node.js people know tuples?
01:23:30	<sclv>	shiraeeshi: because it doesn’t use the normal package sources. it uses head.hackage which is a mutable overlay
01:24:06	<jackdk>	shiraeeshi: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.8.0/docs/src/GHC.Tuple.html#getSolo the versions of Data.Tuple I see on Hackage for base-4.16.0.0 and 4.16.1.0 both `import GHC.Tuple (Solo(..))` for reexport but not the standalone `getSolo` function.
01:24:06	<sclv>	head.hackage gets reset with new patches every ghc release and the old ones get deleted
01:24:23	<shiraeeshi>	jackdk: you mean the line that says "repository head.hackage.ghc.haskell.org" ?
01:24:29	<shiraeeshi>	in cabal.project
01:24:38	<sclv>	no i mean that not jack :-)
01:24:50	<jackdk>	oh no I missed that context, I'm gonna go make more tea
01:25:03	<sclv>	it was written against a custom patchset that now no longer exists
01:25:24	<shiraeeshi>	oh my bad, I missed the right username
01:25:39	<sclv>	you can’t perfectly reproduce it. you can either do the incremental work to bring it up to date, or give up
01:25:39	<monochrom>	All of us need more wine.
01:26:12	<sclv>	there is a proposal to keep old head.hackage patch overlays around but… not now
01:27:35	<shiraeeshi>	jackdk: but #ifdef in OneTuple is written like I described
01:28:09	<jackdk>	shiraeeshi: ok I can't see that working using released packages but I have no idea what's on head.hackage
01:29:14	<shiraeeshi>	sclv: the readme of the demo I'm trying to build says: "Or, alternatively, use this nix invocation to set-up the environment."
01:29:21	<shiraeeshi>	nix-shell
01:29:34	<shiraeeshi>	"Configuring the haskell.nix caches will save you some build time (or you can remove the eventlog2html entry from the shell.nix file and install another way)."
01:29:48	<shiraeeshi>	I have 2 questions:
01:30:04	<shiraeeshi>	what does "configuring the haskell.nix caches" mean?
01:30:34	<shiraeeshi>	is it going to help with the mutable head.hackage situation?
01:30:37	<sclv>	nix has binary caches you can tell it to use to shortcut building derivations
01:31:00	<shiraeeshi>	they have shell.nix file in the project
01:31:03	<sclv>	i have no idea if the derivation is sufficiently valid still but the caches are orthogonal
01:31:09	<shiraeeshi>	perhaps it would help
01:31:33	<sclv>	it might, it might not. the caches will only change build times not the general situation
01:32:10	<shiraeeshi>	so it's not like they have an exact snapshot of what they used in that nix thing?
01:32:24	<sclv>	it depends how the nix was configured
01:33:43	<shiraeeshi>	sclv: "nix has binary caches you can tell it to use to shortcut building derivations"
01:34:07	<shiraeeshi>	you mean I can tell nix to download binaries from somewhere?
01:34:16	<sclv>	yes. but the caches are checked against the source hashes. they can’t be used without the full source
01:34:22	<sclv>	it just shortcuts building
01:34:34	<sclv>	it doesn’t make anything more or less installable
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01:35:55	<shiraeeshi>	so as I understand it, allow-newer and linking to mutable head.hackage made the build unreproducible
01:36:11	<sclv>	yes
01:36:24	<sclv>	particularly the latter.
01:36:31	<jackdk>	shiraeeshi: https://input-output-hk.github.io/haskell.nix/tutorials/getting-started.html#setting-up-the-binary-cache
01:36:34	<shiraeeshi>	and it's unlikely that nix is going to help with that
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01:37:58	<sm>	see if y'all can find /r/haskell in the https://anvaka.github.io/map-of-reddit
01:37:58	<sm>	phew.. now that that's settled..
01:38:20	<sclv>	In this case the nix derivation doesn’t pin the packages in head.hackage so it doesn’t look like it will help
01:38:40	<sclv>	if you read the derivation you see what it provides
01:39:00	<shiraeeshi>	where does the "nix-shell" command come from?
01:39:01	<sm>	(warning, the southern continent is NSFW)
01:39:21	<sclv>	it comes from installing the nix package manager
01:39:55	<shiraeeshi>	so it doesn't get shipped with cabal, just wanted to make sure
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01:40:45	<shiraeeshi>	ok, perhaps I should ask the demo authors to make the demo buildable
01:43:00	<shiraeeshi>	or perhaps I can make it buildable by myself?
01:43:16	<shiraeeshi>	the presentation was 11 months ago
01:44:06	<shiraeeshi>	I can't port it to stack because we don't have a snapshot for ghc-9.2 yet, right?
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01:48:25	<sm>	stackage nightly has ghc 9.2
01:49:11	<sm>	which voids the warranty I guess
01:49:11	<sm>	I am using it daily
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01:50:24	<shiraeeshi>	how can I check if ghc-debug is in stackage nightly for ghc 9.2?
01:50:56	<sm>	another amusement: did you wonder which are our neighbour subreddits ? https://anvaka.github.io/sayit/?query=haskell
01:51:04	<sm>	shiraeeshi: go to http://stackage.org/nightly and find in page for ghc-debug
01:51:32	<sm>	if it's not, it can often still be installed from hackage
01:51:44	<sm>	or from github, in this case, I guess
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01:52:10	<shiraeeshi>	no ghc-debug in there
01:52:10	<sm>	or gitlab, even
01:52:55	<sm>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc-debug > "The project needs to built with a development version of GHC from this branch." > does not inspire confidence
01:53:24	<sm>	your best source of help for ghc-debug is #ghc I think
01:54:06	<shiraeeshi>	I guess I can just for some time until everything is in a stack snapshot
01:54:27	<shiraeeshi>	how long till it gets there, can anybody tell?
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01:54:50	<shiraeeshi>	*I can just wait for some time
01:55:41	<sm>	could be a long wait.. if you want it to happen, best to engage with the maintainers
01:55:58	<sm>	just getting on hackage would be good
01:56:32	<shiraeeshi>	hmm, how would getting on hackage be good?
01:56:48	<shiraeeshi>	there are no snapshots in there
01:57:23	<shiraeeshi>	or do you mean I can link to hackage instead of mutable head.hackage once it gets there?
01:57:38	<sm>	getting on hackage means it's more buildable than a random git* repo
01:57:42	<shiraeeshi>	and then remove allow-newer
01:58:46	<sm>	if it's (recently published) on hackage, that suggests there is some reasonable build plan that doesn't require violating bounds with allow-newer, yes
01:59:04	<sm>	shiraeeshi: may I ask how you're so motivated ? is it something you need for work ?
01:59:46	<shiraeeshi>	idk why lol, seems like I've become a little bit obsessed
02:00:17	<shiraeeshi>	there is a video that shows how to profile for space leaks
02:00:20	<sm>	I hear that. +1 :)
02:00:40	<shiraeeshi>	I wanted to follow the example
02:01:08	<sm>	just reach out to mpickering on #ghc, you might get lucky
02:01:10	<shiraeeshi>	they are describing new niceties that they added that make debugging space leaks easier
02:02:01	<shiraeeshi>	before them, I mean now, you have to set some labels in the code and then search for them in the logs or something
02:02:15	<shiraeeshi>	the process becomes tedious
02:02:36	<shiraeeshi>	with the new thing that they added, it can automatically put labels
02:02:56	<shiraeeshi>	"cost centers"
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02:03:36	<sm>	it's unfortunately often true that the latest shiny haskell tools are visible in the distance long before mortals can use them
02:04:05	<sm>	but I'm being a pessimist. Let us know if you have any luck
02:04:54	<shiraeeshi>	I guess the reason for my motivation is that it's an uncomfortable feeling when you know that laziness is problematic sometimes and can lead to space leaks
02:05:04	<shiraeeshi>	so you have to be careful about them
02:05:15	<shiraeeshi>	or at least be able to deal with them if they occur
02:05:23	<sm>	there are a lot of more mundane techniques you can use right now
02:05:41	<sm>	we were just working on such a problem before you started chatting, did you see ?
02:05:59	<shiraeeshi>	yes
02:06:27	<shiraeeshi>	but there is no guarantee that the space leaks won't occur, so you have to learn how to deal with them
02:06:49	<sm>	that's right, although you can go a long time without hitting one (or without hitting a hard one)
02:07:45	<shiraeeshi>	so how does debugging memory consumption look like now, in the current versions of ghc?
02:07:54	<sm>	they come up a lot more in beginner exercises than real-world programs, maybe
02:08:01	<shiraeeshi>	are there good resources about it?
02:08:23	<sm>	there's a chapter in the user guide I think, probably the best place to start
02:08:30	<shiraeeshi>	I have a vague understanding now after watching an intro from the demo
02:08:40	<sm>	and there have been good blog posts
02:08:42	<shiraeeshi>	ghc user guide
02:08:44	<shiraeeshi>	?
02:08:49	<sm>	yes
02:09:39	<shiraeeshi>	ok, gonna take a look some time
02:12:02	<sm>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/profiling.html#
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02:13:48	<shiraeeshi>	hey, thanks for the link, it went right into my stash of links
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02:16:03	<shiraeeshi>	look like it's not a lot of text, I can actually read that in an hour or so
02:16:27	<sm>	@where profiling also has it, nice
02:16:27	<lambdabot>	http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/profiling.html
02:16:52	<sm>	mastering the techiques in the chapter will take a lot longer, but could be a superpower
02:22:13	<sm>	heck, just printing it and sticking on the wall would probably give superpower
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02:27:44	<shiraeeshi>	"with the new thing that they added, it can automatically put labels"
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02:28:40	<shiraeeshi>	correction: it allows to automatically distinguish different invokations of data constructors (in creation or in pattern matching, I don't remember)
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04:16:58	<dzdcnfzd>	I have a stack project. I want to write tests for it in bash and run them with stack test. What's the best way to do this?
04:18:09	<dzdcnfzd>	I've found people saying I should make a .hs test with a main that just calls the bash scripts in question and returns non-zero if any of them return non-zero, then mark that test as of type exitcode-stdio-1.0 in my project.cabal file
04:18:21	<dzdcnfzd>	but I'm using a stack.yaml file, not a project.cabal file
04:19:19	<dzdcnfzd>	My goal in this is to be able to type "stack test" and have it build the executable and then run the tests
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04:25:59	<dsal>	dzdcnfzd: Have you considered using a normal test framework?
04:26:00	<Axman6>	dzdcnfzd: my advice would just be to use cabal, you can make stack understand a cabal based project quite easily but trying to go the other way can be harder
04:26:42	<Axman6>	why do you want to write the tests in bash? what are you trying to do that you couldn't do from a haskell terstsuite?
04:27:21	<dzdcnfzd>	Axman6: I'm writing a utility that interops with sed
04:28:36	<dsal>	It's unclear what Haskell's role in this is, but haskell's got a few good test frameworks.
04:28:49	<dzdcnfzd>	The easiest way I know to check my program's correctness is to write a little script that runs my program on a file, gets the output, uses it for a sed command, and checks the output against a known value
04:28:52	<dsal>	I like tasty. tasty-discover works reasonably well.
04:29:12	<Axman6>	you can run both your program and sed from haskell pretty easily
04:29:14	<dsal>	tasty-golden would do the thing above fairly well, but it's a somewhat limited test case.
04:30:19	<Axman6>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/process-1.6.14.0/docs/System-Process.html
04:31:25	<Axman6>	I believe you can also get cabal to tell you the path to the binary you've compiled, but I've never done that
04:31:25	<dzdcnfzd>	I guess
04:31:38	<dzdcnfzd>	That would be cool
04:31:59	<sclv>	‘cabal list-bin’
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04:32:11	<dzdcnfzd>	is there a way to get that automatically as an input to the test?
04:32:13	<dzdcnfzd>	or no
04:32:25	<dzdcnfzd>	In general for testing, is there any concept of custom scripts
04:32:27	<dzdcnfzd>	or actions
04:32:29	<dzdcnfzd>	in cabal
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04:32:57	<sclv>	i would just call the “main” function of the program directly
04:32:59	<dsal>	If you need to run your executable, you should consider making main smaller so you can use it as a library.
04:32:59	<dzdcnfzd>	or will stack test always just run a particular haskell executable
04:33:01	<Axman6>	cabal can create some useful modules for you during compilation, but I can;t remember how that's done
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04:33:21	<Axman6>	sclv: can you do and control what it sees as stdin, stdout etc?
04:33:24	<sclv>	the pattern is make the program mainly in a lib, and the executable stanza is a thin wrapper
04:33:29	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal: that's a good idea
04:34:00	<dzdcnfzd>	sclv: yeah, of course, that's a good pattern, but I think it's worse for testing
04:34:04	<dzdcnfzd>	I want a real integration test
04:34:07	<sclv>	Axman6: sorta, but usually its better to test componants and not drive it directly.
04:34:15	<dzdcnfzd>	end-to-end
04:34:17	<dsal>	As a library, I'd expect to be able to supply a bytestring of some sort as input and have a bytestring of some sort as output and a configuration structure.
04:34:33	<Axman6>	yeah if your main can do something like appMain :: Args -> ByteString {- stding -} -> IO ByteString then your testing will be as simple as running it, calling sed using the above module, and comparing the results
04:35:04	<sclv>	for a real integration test, you can recursively invoke “list-bin” within it, or require the bin as a cmd line arg
04:35:55	<dzdcnfzd>	is the wisdom of the crowd that I should forsake stack.yaml in favor of my-project.cabal?
04:36:08	<dzdcnfzd>	I don't have a lot of stack or cabal knowledge so
04:36:14	<dzdcnfzd>	is this what people do?
04:36:18	<sclv>	but again anything that needs this is typically big enough to be testing multiple integrated components and the test should then be a whole separate project
04:36:42	<dsal>	I use stack, but stack isn't related to your problem.
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04:37:24	<dzdcnfzd>	I just mean in general
04:37:28	<dzdcnfzd>	I think I have to pick one, right?
04:37:48	<dzdcnfzd>	I have to either manually modify my cabal file or use stack.yaml
04:38:04	<dzdcnfzd>	if I manually modify my cabal file it tells me it's skipping the stack.yaml I think?
04:38:05	<dsal>	Well, package.yaml, which writes out your cabal file and you can do that without stack if you'd like.
04:38:12	<dsal>	You don't modify stack.yaml very much.
04:38:36	<dzdcnfzd>	Ah, I see
04:38:41	<dzdcnfzd>	Okay, same question though
04:38:55	<dzdcnfzd>	Should I be forsaking package.yaml in favor of myProject.caba
04:38:58	<dzdcnfzd>	*.cabal
04:39:07	<dsal>	I wouldn't write out .cabal files by hand.
04:39:28	<dsal>	We don't use stack at work (for the bulk of our software), but we do use hpack because writing .cabal files by hand sounds like a terrible idea.
04:39:43	<dsal>	We've got like, thousands of modules and would just constantly have conflicts if people did that by hand.
04:41:38	<dsal>	I've been using stack for years and have never successfully migrated a project off of it, but that's still independent of "how do I write testable code and then test that testable code?"
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04:46:41	<dzdcnfzd>	I see
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04:50:59	<sm>	stack user here, checking in
04:51:09	<dzdcnfzd>	thanks btw
04:51:17	<dzdcnfzd>	currently trying to put together a tasty test
04:51:50	<sm>	dzdcnfzd, as I think you know, you can define test suites, and these run arbitrary haskell code, which can do anything including running shell scripts
04:51:58	<sm>	and by the way have you seen shelltestrunner ?
04:52:36	<sm>	I'm curious though if it's actually important for `stack test` to run everything ? I use `make test` as my top level command
04:53:02	<dzdcnfzd>	sm: No, I haven't seen it. Yeah, I know I can do whatever I want from a haskell file. I just wanted to do it as simply as possible
04:53:44	<dzdcnfzd>	As to make -- it'd also work, I guess, but it's another bit of tooling
04:53:55	<sm>	or just a shell script
04:53:59	<sm>	./test
04:54:06	<dzdcnfzd>	Yes, I considered that
04:54:15	<dzdcnfzd>	That's basically what I wanted
04:54:34	<dzdcnfzd>	The only thing is that the shell script would have to run stack build
04:54:58	<sm>	it can do that.. I have my make test rule do that
04:55:01	<dzdcnfzd>	I wanted to be able to run `stack test` -> stack builds the project, invokes my script
04:55:05	<dsal>	Why upside down? Just make `stack test --file-watch` work
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04:55:23	<dzdcnfzd>	What do you mean?
04:55:41	<sm>	dzdcnfzd: wants to run shell script tests, and doesn't want to write haskell code to do that if there's an easier way
04:55:54	<dzdcnfzd>	sm: with make it'd be possible. I was hoping there'd be a native way within cabal
04:56:01	<dzdcnfzd>	Or stack
04:56:06	<dsal>	I think running stack from haskell from stack to write a test in shell is definitely the hardest way.
04:56:29	<sm>	the native way would be test/Main.hs: runProcess "./test" :)
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04:56:43	<dzdcnfzd>	I'm actually writing a haskell program that constructs a make file that builds everything and runs it
04:56:45	<dzdcnfzd>	very simple
04:57:02	<dsal>	How is that more simple than just calling your function and inspecting the output?
04:57:16	<sm>	I think you should generate the whole thing from a bash script for easy deployment
04:57:29	sm	semi-joking
04:57:56	<dsal>	I think any involvement of shell just greatly complicates things and makes them less portable.
04:58:31	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal I was joking above, but why would using the shell make it less portable?
04:58:53	<sm>	windows.. different shells available on unix machines..
04:59:02	<sm>	different shell versions (apple vs homebrew, etc)
04:59:27	<dzdcnfzd>	Yeah, that's a good point
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05:00:59	<dsal>	Based on the description, it sounds like you just have a thing that takes some input and produces some output. Something like this does most of the work for you: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-golden-2.3.5/docs/Test-Tasty-Golden.html#v:goldenVsString
05:02:17	<dzdcnfzd>	That is what I'm going to use but it's only sort of the case
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05:02:32	<sm>	yes, I will shill shelltestrunner a little more - that might replace some of your test scripts. Though it's one more thing to install, it's more cross platform than sh. tasty-golden does similar work but requires a bit of programming
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05:03:25	<dzdcnfzd>	the whole testing thing is a little bit complicated by the fact that it's a utility whose output is meant to be used by a `sed` command
05:03:28	<laalyn>	/msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER laalyn DA5QhWyzExBdppzD
05:03:42	<dzdcnfzd>	Uhhhhhh
05:03:46	<dzdcnfzd>	He laalyn
05:03:58	<laalyn>	yeaaah im guessing that cmd didnt work
05:04:02	<dzdcnfzd>	lol
05:04:14	<dsal>	dzdcnfzd: that shouldn't be an issue. You've got a function that takes a bytestring and returns a bytestring, right?
05:04:18	<dzdcnfzd>	sm: it looks very cool
05:04:25	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal: yes
05:04:36	<sm>	I rely on it
05:04:45	<dzdcnfzd>	but the bytestring it outputs isn't the one I care about
05:04:55	<dzdcnfzd>	I care about how sed behaves when I feed it that bytestring
05:05:11	<dzdcnfzd>	Hence the shell part
05:05:19	sm	notes that sed itself is highly non-portable.. but that's what tests will tell you
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05:05:51	<dsal>	Sure, sed is not portable, but the next step would be replacing sed.
05:06:05	<sm>	perl ftw
05:06:30	<laalyn>	perl 6 is pretty cool
05:07:01	<sm>	heh, perl 6 is what got me interested in this exotic new language "Haskell"
05:07:05	<dsal>	I guess I don't understand how a shell script improves anything here. If you have a stream editor, you write the tests against that interface. Changing the implementation from sed to conduit shouldn't break any tests.
05:08:38	<sm>	dsal.. I'm guessing that writing and changing the shell tests can be (for lots of folks) a lot quicker than futzing with compilation and unfamiliar libs
05:09:06	<sm>	and, maybe closer to the intended real-world use of the tool ?
05:09:16	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal: exactly. I was hoping to hack this together in 30m. It's going to be a bigger time investment now
05:09:27	<dzdcnfzd>	Because I don't know the libs, I'm not an expert in haskell IO
05:09:37	<dsal>	I… guess, but if you're writing stuff in Haskell, you've got great tools for correctness and stuff.
05:10:03	<dsal>	I wouldn't expect the tests to use any IO unless you were using the golden thing.
05:10:09	<sm>	I know it would take me an hour or possibly half a day debugging some stupid lazy IO/concurrency issue
05:10:11	<dsal>	Some tests are better than no tests, but good tests are within reach.
05:11:35	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal I definitely need IO
05:11:47	<dzdcnfzd>	how are you gonna run an external program without IO?
05:12:17	<dsal>	Yeah, but that's the part you already have to write, not the test.
05:12:30	<dzdcnfzd>	?
05:12:35	<dsal>	The test is just "if I call my thing with x I get y"
05:12:39	<dzdcnfzd>	No
05:12:43	<dzdcnfzd>	That's not end-to-end
05:12:48	<dzdcnfzd>	that's a unit test
05:13:40	<dzdcnfzd>	For context, what I've done is made a DSL that compiles down to sed regexes
05:14:14	<dzdcnfzd>	My tests are programs written in this DSL, combined with sed input that I'd like to test against these programs
05:14:44	<dsal>	Ok, then the test is "If I call my thing with f and x I get y"
05:16:01	<dzdcnfzd>	so basically I have `echo "test1_sedInput.txt" \| sed -E "$(stack exec my-program test1_programInput)" > test1_golden.txt`
05:16:41	<dzdcnfzd>	That exact command is an almost fully specified test without any extra work
05:17:12	<dzdcnfzd>	I can write a haskell program to do all that for me but it's going to be significantly more work to put together
05:17:15	<dzdcnfzd>	that's all
05:18:11	<dsal>	Well, so is the thing you're describing and why you're here. You still have to have a collection of those inputs, outputs, expected outputs, validation, error reporting, and runtime. And it's super convenient when that runs with `stack test --file-watch`. That whole thing is one relatively small function and you could do it with a loop over specified inputs.
05:18:59	<dsal>	If you give me a repo I can clone, I should be able to prototype that pretty quickly.
05:19:26	<dzdcnfzd>	Yep. But that's why I wanted to just have a way to do `stack test` and have it build and then run a shell script
05:20:13	<dzdcnfzd>	Don't feel compelled to! But I can certainly show you the repo. I'm hoping people will find it interesting anyways
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05:21:12	<dsal>	Nah, I was trying to work on one of my programs, but I don't have any outstanding issues at the moment. heh
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05:22:11	sm	notes that --file-watch is awesome, but so is entr
05:22:28	<sm>	and for that matter, ghcid -t
05:23:26	<dsal>	We don't use stack at work, but apparently other people use ghcid and have a great time. I've never actually got it working. heh
05:24:58	<sm>	for extra fun, combine two or more of these
05:25:43	<sm>	what's your latest project dsal ?
05:26:05	<dsal>	I've mostly just been doing work stuff.
05:26:40	<dsal>	I get to write a lot of parsers for obscure formats written by people who've never spoken to the nerds who have to touch the computers.
05:26:53	<sm>	ouch
05:26:58	<sm>	good thing you have haskell eh
05:27:10	<dsal>	Yeah, it's kind of nice.
05:28:08	<dsal>	I've learned to not hate hedgehog at least. Though the project as a whole currently makes it a little difficult to write hedgehog tests against effectful code. Hoping to get that fixed because the thing I'm working on right now is complicated, insufficiently tested, and I'm adding a lot of complication.
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05:34:06	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal: https://github.com/anthonyrgreen/sedx-compile
05:34:46	<dsal>	dzdcnfzd: Is that private? I'm dustin if you want to limit access.
05:35:02	<dzdcnfzd>	I made it public
05:35:14	<dzdcnfzd>	Is it visible?
05:35:50	<dsal>	I get a 404
05:36:26	<dzdcnfzd>	Ahh, whoops
05:36:28	<dzdcnfzd>	https://github.com/anthonyrgreen/sedx-compiler
05:36:50	<dsal>	compiles!
05:36:59	<dsal>	Well, checks out. I'll find out if it compiles eventually.
05:37:29	<dzdcnfzd>	:)
05:38:00	<dzdcnfzd>	If you see me doing anything really dumb and get inspired to tell me it's dumb, please do so
05:38:11	<dzdcnfzd>	I am making up my haskell style as I go along
05:38:21	<dzdcnfzd>	Pretty sure I'm doing things the wrong way in places
05:39:46	<dsal>	Well, it doesn't compile.
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05:40:09	<dzdcnfzd>	What happens?
05:40:13	<dsal>	I like stylish-haskell for some basic layout advice. And hlint for other advice
05:40:27	<dsal>	Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘LinkedMatch’
05:40:36	<dzdcnfzd>	what command is this?
05:40:43	<dsal>	stack test
05:40:53	<dsal>	or stack biuld
05:40:54	<dzdcnfzd>	Ah, yes
05:41:08	<dzdcnfzd>	stack build is working for me, not sure what's happening for you
05:41:18	<dzdcnfzd>	stack test isn't working because I just started writing it
05:41:53	<dzdcnfzd>	wait a sec
05:41:56	<dzdcnfzd>	I know what's happening
05:42:06	<dzdcnfzd>	I didn't add one file to my commit, sorry
05:42:15	<dsal>	Yeah. Give me more files!
05:43:08	<dzdcnfzd>	I think it should work
05:43:47	<dsal>	builds!
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05:47:21	<dsal>	dzdcnfzd: There aren't any sedx files around. Perhaps one way to structure this might be to make a directory structure with ["input", "sedx", "expected"]
05:48:02	<dzdcnfzd>	Yes, I just decided on the file extension
05:48:18	<dsal>	I mean, can you toss in something you'd like to see tested.
05:48:25	<dzdcnfzd>	You can see what will be a .sedx file under https://github.com/anthonyrgreen/sedx-compiler/blob/main/sample_programs/search_and_replace.txt
05:48:49	<dzdcnfzd>	I can make the sed input file and upload it next to that
05:49:39	<dzdcnfzd>	Hold up a sec, I'll fix the extension and add the other input, plus the output files
05:50:45	<dsal>	I'm thinking an easy way to do things is "tests/{arbitrary,directory,names}/{input,script.sedx,expected}"
05:51:54	<dsal>	Style opinion: Never use `return` -- I can't ever tell whether someone understand what it does.
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05:54:46	<dzdcnfzd>	I have uploaded the test files
05:54:58	<dzdcnfzd>	they are in three directories under test/
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05:56:21	<dzdcnfzd>	correction: they are NOW in the three proper directories.
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05:58:07	<dsal>	I'd put them all in the same directory. Let me make something that works real quick. You're actually pretty close.
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06:03:00	<dsal>	Sorry, taking me a sec to figure out how to use your lib.
06:08:35	<dsal>	It's failing to parse the example.
06:09:38	<energizer>	i am looking for a string formatting tool like sprintf or f-strings but in a composable ADT style rather than a compact dsl style. is there something like that?
06:11:03	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal: Sorry, I'm not sure what I changed. I'm trying to figure it out now
06:11:09	<dsal>	https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ErIdYuKn/
06:11:55	<dzdcnfzd>	I got it
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06:13:50	<dzdcnfzd>	The program is fixed
06:13:58	<dzdcnfzd>	the .sedx input i mean
06:14:24	<sm>	energizer: would that be something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pretty-1.1.3.6/docs/Text-PrettyPrint.html#t:Doc ?
06:15:56	<energizer>	sm i dont think so. a solution would have a million ways to format a float
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06:16:22	<energizer>	but maybe it's there and i'm missing something
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06:18:10	<dsal>	dzdcnfzd: Sorry, I've mangled the project a bit in order to get something that was easier to add.
06:18:17	<sm>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/formatting ?
06:18:18	<dzdcnfzd>	No worries
06:18:30	<dzdcnfzd>	It's awesome you're looking at it
06:18:38	<sm>	seems like a few of them at https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/search?terms=printf
06:19:42	<dsal>	dzdcnfzd: OK. So when the test fails, it isn't super useful. Let's use the diff one and toss portability out for a moment.
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06:19:54	<dzdcnfzd>	kk
06:20:40	<energizer>	thanks sm
06:23:19	<dsal>	Well, I can't actually tell what's wrong because I don't know what any of this is doing, but this is a useful test, I think. Each directory is a test with an input, expected, and script.sedx https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AJwgukSD/Spec.hs
06:23:41	<dsal>	Also, using this package.yaml https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/88PtXA5Q/package.yaml
06:24:24	<dsal>	When I run it, it fails like this. I don't know what it's supposed to do, so maybe that's right. heh https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/n51OSs0Q/test.out
06:25:39	<dsal>	Oh. ha. dumb
06:26:13	<dsal>	Well, it's running on its input. I can't quite tell where the `sedInput` is supposed to be used.
06:26:22	<dzdcnfzd>	That's awesome!
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06:28:05	<dzdcnfzd>	The intent is that test.out is what you get if you run `cat "${sedInput}" \| sed -e ${ what you're currently putting in the .out file }`
06:28:07	<dsal>	I don't quite understand what's going on here well enough, but you probably do, so you can at least see where I got it.
06:28:16	<dzdcnfzd>	What you wrote is very helpful
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06:28:36	<dsal>	Yeah, I think you just need to make `runSedxAndReplace` do something more sensible.
06:28:54	<dzdcnfzd>	Basically I have to take that, and rather than piping what you have directly to the outfile, run a `sed` command on the basis of it
06:29:29	<dzdcnfzd>	Side note: are you manually doing all your imports?
06:29:35	<dzdcnfzd>	Or do you have a tool?
06:29:48	<dsal>	I just do imports manually, yeah.
06:29:58	<dsal>	stylish-haskell lines them up for me.
06:33:37	<dzdcnfzd>	This awesome
06:33:40	<dzdcnfzd>	thanks a lot
06:33:49	<dzdcnfzd>	Your code is also much cleaner than mine, which is cool
06:35:24	<dsal>	I'm not sure this sed thing actually works.
06:38:03	<dsal>	-import {ExtraImport, Module1, Module2} from 'root/move/to/some/new/directory/file';
06:38:03	<dsal>	+import {ExtraImport, Module1, Module2} from 'root/some/directory/string/file';
06:38:28	<dsal>	This is how I'm running it: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bqRX0wdr/runSed.hs
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06:40:06	<dsal>	Using https://hackage.haskell.org/package/process-1.6.14.0/docs/System-Process.html#v:readProcess -- which is really `String`y in a not great way, but there's a lot of `String` here.
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06:45:04	<dzdcnfzd>	It should be -E
06:45:06	<dzdcnfzd>	not -e
06:45:16	<dzdcnfzd>	I think that might be wrong in the documentation
06:45:39	<dzdcnfzd>	It took me a long time to figure out why, but basic regexes don't support ?
06:45:57	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal: I'll convert to bytestrings soon
06:46:20	<dsal>	I only know the absolute most basic sed. :)
06:46:33	<dzdcnfzd>	That's why I'm making `sedx` :)
06:46:45	<dsal>	I changed it to -E and the test fails harder.
06:46:52	<dzdcnfzd>	!!
06:47:07	<dsal>	I think we've reached sm's portability concerns. :)
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06:50:19	<dzdcnfzd>	Trying to get your test to run myself...
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06:57:39	<dsal>	Is it working? This is the complete file. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jb5JxydO/Spec.hs
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06:58:04	<dsal>	with: $ ls test/examples/search_and_replace/ -> expected input script.sedx
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06:58:36	<dsal>	then just `stack test --file-watch` and edit until things go green.
06:59:00	<dzdcnfzd>	I haven't gotten it to work quite yet
06:59:17	<dzdcnfzd>	we have slightly different folder structures
06:59:25	<dzdcnfzd>	just making it match mine
07:00:12	<dsal>	Mine's a lot easier to manage. Each test is self-contained.
07:04:04	<dzdcnfzd>	I see what is happening
07:04:11	<dzdcnfzd>	Somehow the string escaping is weird
07:04:30	<dzdcnfzd>	it's adding extra backslashes in front of every backslash
07:05:19	<dzdcnfzd>	Because it's trying to print it as a haskell string I'm guessing
07:05:28	<dzdcnfzd>	It's adding its own escape characters
07:06:24	<dzdcnfzd>	So it's running `sed "-E" "s/import {\$\\([A-Za-z0-9]\\(, \$\\?\\)\\)}...` instead of `sed "-E" "s/import {$\([A-Za-z0-9]\(, $\?\)\)}...`
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07:07:57	sm	mumbles something petty about existing tools and being done by now
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07:12:13	<dzdcnfzd>	Ugh, I know what's happening
07:12:28	<dsal>	dzdcnfzd: I'd be surprised if the \ didn't make it through clean in the rawcmd. If I change "sed" to "echo" it seems to do what I expect.
07:12:45	<dzdcnfzd>	I tried the same and you're right. I think it's a weird BSD vs. GNU sed thing
07:13:00	<dzdcnfzd>	This is exactly why I'm writing this
07:13:11	<dzdcnfzd>	The regex works on one machine, not on another
07:13:40	<dzdcnfzd>	Okay. I'm gonna sleep
07:13:44	<dzdcnfzd>	Thank you very much for the help
07:13:49	<dzdcnfzd>	It's been extremely helpful
07:13:56	<dsal>	Oh, the error itself will show the \\ because of how it's being printed in a string in a string.
07:14:03	<dzdcnfzd>	I'm going to try to get this working tomorrow maybe
07:14:08	<dzdcnfzd>	Yes, that's exactly right
07:14:15	<dsal>	But yeah, I should also be asleep.
07:14:20	<dzdcnfzd>	As a side-note
07:14:28	<dzdcnfzd>	I tried using free monads for this
07:14:35	<dsal>	I've never used a free monad.
07:14:39	<dzdcnfzd>	Just 'cause I thought they were cool. I'm not convinced
07:14:55	<dzdcnfzd>	I'm not sure I gained much
07:15:26	<dsal>	I use mtl most of the time. Every time I've tried to do something fancier, it's just been a huge amount of work.
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07:18:10	<dzdcnfzd>	It works
07:18:12	<dzdcnfzd>	:)
07:18:25	<dzdcnfzd>	you need GNU sed
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07:18:45	<dzdcnfzd>	next project is adding flags to make it work with BSD sed
07:18:54	<dzdcnfzd>	and then extended or basic regular expressions
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07:20:17	<dzdcnfzd>	dsal: test is pushed. Thanks so much!
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07:26:35	<sm>	if you have to add special flags, it's about the same as sed, no ?
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07:36:03	<dzdcnfzd>	sm: the idea is that you tailor your flags to the version of sed
07:36:22	<dzdcnfzd>	so your flags just specify what version of sed you're producing a string for
07:36:36	<dzdcnfzd>	You don't have to change your program at all
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07:37:48	<dzdcnfzd>	the sedx interpreter reads the same program but changes the regex it produces to match the version of sed you specify
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08:47:33	<apache2>	I keep getting this
08:47:42	<apache2>	• Couldn't match expected type ‘Text’
08:47:42	<apache2>	with actual type ‘Data.Text.Internal.Lazy.Text’
08:47:58	<apache2>	How do I turn the lazy text into Data.Text?
08:49:08	<jackdk>	apache2: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-2.0/docs/Data-Text-Lazy.html#v:toStrict
08:52:42	<apache2>	thanks!
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10:00:28	<tomsmeding>	(sounds like you need the inverse, fromStrict, but presumably you already figured that out)
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10:25:47	<RudraveerMandal[>	Can Haskell be used for making smart contracts on Ethereum
10:27:47	<Rembane>	RudraveerMandal[: It seems so: https://www.programmersought.net/article/325194150.html
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10:29:33	<RudraveerMandal[>	les go
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15:24:17	<tomsmeding>	public service announcement for ghcup users: if you aren't running 0.1.17.8 yet and are using --isolate, please upgrade https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/unl3f4/ann_ghcup_01178_bugfix_release/
15:25:32	<hpc>	what's the bug?
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15:25:55	<tomsmeding>	if you use --isolate --force and the install fails, then ghcup "cleans up the installation directory"
15:26:13	<tomsmeding>	(0.1.17.8 doesn't anymore)
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16:24:14	<Guest44>	I'm trying to write a function to calculate the average of a list of integers but cant seem to get it working correctly as my integers aren't being treated as numbers, can someone help debug?
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16:25:14	<maerwald>	Guest44: can you share your code on https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/play
16:26:12	<Guest44>	done!
16:26:20	<maerwald>	did you create a paste from it?
16:26:28	<Guest44>	https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/U5agoi8h
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16:27:09	<Guest44>	I'd really like to do something along the lines of `top = (fromIntegral $ sum scores) :: Num` but that gives me a different error
16:27:13	<maerwald>	Guest44: so the error tells you that a constraint is missing
16:27:20	<maerwald>	did you try adding that constraint?
16:27:56	<Guest44>	I can try
16:28:11	<Guest44>	Is there a reasons fractions are different than numbers? to me it seems like number is a more "general" class
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16:28:28	<tomsmeding>	Guest44: Int is also an instance of Num
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16:28:47	<tomsmeding>	and (/) doesn't work on Int, because it's supposed to be fractional division (like float division)
16:29:02	<tomsmeding>	Guest44: every Fractional is also a Num, but not every Num is a Fractional
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16:30:08	<Guest44>	Hm, so what if I wanted to take 3 / 2 = 1.5
16:30:12	<tomsmeding>	Num has (+), (-), (*), negate, abs, signum, fromInteger; Fractional has (/), recip, fromRational (see https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/Prelude.html#t:Num and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/Prelude.html#t:Fractional)
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16:30:23	<tomsmeding>	> 3 / 2 :: Double
16:30:23	<Guest44>	3 and 2 are integers -- does haskell have something like "casting" in other languages?
16:30:26	<lambdabot>	1.5
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16:30:33	<tomsmeding>	Guest44: that casting is precisely the fromIntegral that you already used
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16:30:49	<monochrom>	@quote monochrom fromIntegral
16:30:50	<lambdabot>	monochrom says: You've got an Int / But you want Double / Who do you call? / "fromIntegral!"
16:31:15	tomsmeding	will try to remember that one
16:31:19	<Guest44>	Ok that all makes sense
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16:31:26	<maerwald>	I'd probably just use Double
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16:31:43	<maerwald>	ad-hoc polymorphic result types are annoying
16:32:13	<maerwald>	https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/3V4eqhvf
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16:35:33	<Guest44>	From a little googling, it seems that `Fractionable` is nearly equivalent to the rational numbers, is `Num` equivalent to the Real Numbers?
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16:37:26	<hololeap>	so, I want to use cabal-install-solver in a project, but it only exists in master, not in 3.6 or other branches. this confuses me. maybe I don't understand how people utilize branches in big projects like this, because the "split-off" of cabal-install-solver happened before the release of 3.6.2.0
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16:39:02	<hololeap>	so does the master branch represent experimentation that would not find its way into the 3.6 branch?
16:39:17	<hololeap>	(sorry if this is a bit OT)
16:39:41	<c_wraith>	Guest44: Integer is an instance of Num, so that seems unlikely.
16:41:18	<c_wraith>	Guest44: Num is actually a sort of ring-like thing. It gives you addition and multiplication like a ring, but it also throws in more fiddly things like abs, signum, and fromInteger
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16:42:12	<c_wraith>	Guest44: the numeric type classes weren't designed around mathematical abstractions, really. They were designed around type inference returning sensible results
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16:44:03	<hololeap>	there is an implicit OverloadedNumbers extention in base haskell :3
16:45:46	<c_wraith>	I mean, the big issue is that inference of law-only classes would require changing the way constraints are inferred entirely. But law-only classes come up all the time in any kind of numeric hierarchy.
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16:47:01	<hololeap>	negate, abs, and signum seem like unnecessary requirements for the class
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16:49:55	<c_wraith>	In principle, I agree. In practice, splitting those off would result in weird types
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16:50:42	<c_wraith>	Num is the only shared interface between Integral and Fractional
16:51:35	<hololeap>	I'm mostly thinking of what poor ol' Natural does with those ... negate 0 = 0; negate _ = undefined
16:52:12	<hololeap>	then again, 0 - _ = undefined
16:52:25	<hololeap>	(except 0, of course)
16:52:35	<monochrom>	was going to say that, heh
16:53:19	<c_wraith>	the whole hierarchy is about making it easy to write code at the expense of allowing some nonsense.
16:53:51	<c_wraith>	:t toRational
16:53:54	<lambdabot>	Real a => a -> Rational
16:54:06	<c_wraith>	I can't imagine a more nonsense name for a class than that.
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16:54:50	<monochrom>	Consider "Realable" >:)
16:55:21	<hololeap>	@hackage numeric-prelude -- this is the alternative <:(
16:55:21	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/numeric-prelude -- this is the alternative <:(
16:55:48	<c_wraith>	exactly
16:57:07	<hololeap>	but the example of Natural really does highlight how awesome finite-typelits is
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16:57:49	<hololeap>	if just for the interface of e.g. packFinite
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16:59:25	<hololeap>	they really should have skipped adding a Num instance, although I see the convenience factor
17:03:10	<hololeap>	weird question about that package: is packFiniteProxy only there to help people using ghc <8.0.1, who don't have access to TypeApplications? I see those "proxy" versions of functions from time to time
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17:07:00	<hololeap>	I suppose I'm asking people to guess the motivation behind that, but I thought it might be well-known enough
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17:11:02	<c_wraith>	numeric-prelude doesn't even provide tools for what I consider to be the biggest problem math-like libraries tend to have.
17:11:22	<c_wraith>	Or at least I don't see anything for affine spaces in there.
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17:14:06	<c_wraith>	(points and vectors are not the same thing. times and durations are not the same thing.)
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17:21:30	<sclv>	hololeap: lots of changes in master did not make it into the 3.6 branch. 3.6.2 was a very conservative set of backports to coincide with a ghc release iirc
17:22:06	<sclv>	because cabal needs to do releases to support ghc releases, it often has minor releases that do not capture the full state of work that's in the next major release roadmap.
17:22:54	<sclv>	so its not so much "experimentation" as having a "support branch" (3.6) and master reflects the projected "next major release" (3.8)
17:23:59	<hololeap>	ok, thanks sclv. that's basically what I meant by "experimentation"
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17:24:37	<hololeap>	although that raises the question of why they skip odd-numbered releaases
17:26:02	<sclv>	its not experimentation in the sense that if its merged into master, it IS projected for release. its just projected for the next major release.
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17:27:04	<sclv>	skipping odd numbered releases is similar to ghc -- it lets master "between releases" be at an odd number so people can manage using snapshot builds a bit more reasonably.
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17:27:50	<sclv>	this is really no different than noticing that there's changes in master in ghc but say a 9.2.3 release would not have them because master tracks projected 9.4 or whatever
17:28:14	<sclv>	it feels all like pretty standard unexceptional dev practices to me.
17:28:27	<hololeap>	I'm just not familiar with all of it
17:28:34	<hololeap>	so thanks for the explaination
17:28:47	<sclv>	sure, glad to explain!
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18:43:10	<tomsmeding>	is it correct that one cannot actually use text-2.0 yet with any released ghc version?
18:43:26	<maerwald>	no
18:44:08	<tomsmeding>	:(
18:44:20	<maerwald>	I mean, it's not correct
18:44:30	<tomsmeding>	o
18:45:12	<maerwald>	it's just that cabal prefers the versions that GHC ships with... but it can upgrade too. That only creates problems in some cases
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18:45:42	<tomsmeding>	oh apparently I needed 'cabal clean'?
18:46:23	<tomsmeding>	oh a dep also doesn't support text 2.0, rip
18:46:39	<maerwald>	the fix is usually easy
18:47:24	<tomsmeding>	did anything change semantics in text-2.0? As in, if a package compiles with both, does it do the same thing with both?
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18:47:46	<maerwald>	I'd say yes
18:47:59	<tomsmeding>	right, then it's not worth my time trying currently :p
18:48:16	<maerwald>	behavior should be the same, except for that vulnerability
18:48:56	<tomsmeding>	man I should ask my questions less ambiguously
18:49:06	<tomsmeding>	thanks I'm going to try rebuilding
18:49:07	<maerwald>	err, scratch that
18:49:16	<maerwald>	vulnerability was in aeson :D
18:49:22	tomsmeding	was already slightly confused
18:49:23	<tomsmeding>	yes ;)
18:49:35	<maerwald>	text only changed internal API
18:49:48	<tomsmeding>	'constraints: text ==2.0 ; allow-newer: text' here we go
18:50:05	<tomsmeding>	oh not constraints apparently?
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18:50:23	<maerwald>	but if one of your dependency depends on internal modules, allow-newer might not be safe
18:50:25	<tomsmeding>	oh it is, I just can't type
18:50:59	<tomsmeding>	because semantics changed for internal modules?
18:51:14	<tomsmeding>	I think it's likely that stuff in the snap ecosystem depends on internal text stuff
18:51:16	<geekosaur>	the internal storage format changed from utf16 to utf8
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18:51:26	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: that's precisely why I wanted to upgrade
18:51:38	<geekosaur>	something like text-icu that probably dug into the internals for performance will probably fail
18:51:49	<tomsmeding>	question is, will stuff that changes semantics now give a type error, or is upgrading unsafe
18:51:53	<geekosaur>	(icu uses utf16 by default)
18:52:10	<geekosaur>	that I don't know
18:52:35	<maerwald>	tomsmeding: no
18:52:42	<maerwald>	the Text type did not change
18:52:49	<geekosaur>	thing is, for performance they probably use something like ByteArray# and ghc doesn't provide a SixteenBitWordArray#
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18:53:23	<tomsmeding>	ah right, so if anything manipulated the underlying ByteArray# it's going to break
18:53:30	<tomsmeding>	thanks both, that settles the issue :)
18:53:32	<maerwald>	they changed the constructor though
18:53:42	<maerwald>	but that's not a safe enough bet
18:53:48	<maerwald>	*constructor name
18:54:49	<tomsmeding>	yeah, not going to risk it
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19:13:05	<Guest4496>	How does haskell know that `map . map func inputs` should be interpreted as `map (map func) inputs` instead of throwing errors? As a human, I interpret this along the lines of `map( map ( func (inputs)))` (Makes no sense -- map needs two arguments!) or `map(map func inputs)` (Makes no sense -- first argument to outer map must be a function
19:13:05	<Guest4496>	instead of a value)
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19:13:37	<tomsmeding>	`map . map func inputs` means `\x -> map (map func inputs x)`
19:14:00	<tomsmeding>	`f . g = \x -> f (g x)`
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19:14:18	<tomsmeding>	so it's _not_ interpreted as `map (map func) inputs`
19:14:35	<EvanR>	all this relies on map func inputs resulting in a function
19:14:45	<EvanR>	which is possible
19:14:52	<EvanR>	wait
19:15:09	<tomsmeding>	still not the same as the interpretation that Guest4496 stated that it would be :p
19:15:37	<EvanR>	map func inputs is necessarily a list
19:15:57	<tomsmeding>	:t \func inputs -> map . map func inputs
19:15:58	<lambdabot>	error:
19:15:59	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match expected type ‘a1 -> a2 -> b1’
19:15:59	<lambdabot>	with actual type ‘[b]’
19:16:23	<tomsmeding>	Guest4496: that code snippet can never ever typecheck with the standard `(.)` and `map`
19:16:42	<tomsmeding>	Guest4496: are you very sure that the (.) is not really ($)?
19:17:44	<EvanR>	map . map func inputs is problematic if . is . or $
19:17:56	<tomsmeding>	oh fair point
19:18:32	<Guest4496>	Ah, In my interpreter I defined `m2d = map . map` and just replaced them whereas really it gets replaced as `(map . map) func inputs`
19:18:38	<EvanR>	which is good, the more random things that can be typed which are accepted, the harder it is to stop nonsense
19:18:58	<tomsmeding>	Guest4496: yes, function application binds tighter than infix operators :)
19:19:22	<tomsmeding>	map . map x y = map . (map x y) != (map . map) x y
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19:21:20	<EvanR>	map . map x y = ((map) . ((map x) y))
19:21:22	<EvanR>	clear? xD
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19:23:02	<tomsmeding>	why is there not a way to encode a lazy bytestring to an aeson Encoding _without_ going via a full strict bytestring
19:25:34	<tomsmeding>	you can fold over the chunks in a lazy bytestring and encode those piece by piece into strict Texts, which you can encode into aeson Encodings one by one, but the one function that is missing is Data.Aeson.Encoding.Builder.unquoted https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.0.3.0/docs/src/Data.Aeson.Encoding.Builder.html#text
19:25:42	<tomsmeding>	it exists but it isn't exported
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19:26:14	<tomsmeding>	and from a quoted builder you can't strip the quotes without rendering it first
19:26:31	<tomsmeding>	though hm, rendering those chunks should be cheap
19:28:15	<EvanR>	I see a lazyText to Encoding
19:28:49	<EvanR>	curious how lazy bytestring is coming up in json
19:28:54	<EvanR>	rather, bytestring
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19:29:18	<tomsmeding>	I have output of a process as a bytestring and I want to put that in a json string
19:29:24	<tomsmeding>	s/bytestring/lazy bytestring/
19:29:30	<EvanR>	well json is text...
19:29:45	<EvanR>	were you encoding the bytestring somehow
19:29:56	<tomsmeding>	it's going to be presented to the user as text in the end anyway, so I don't mind if non-utf8 stuff gets replaced with U+FFFD
19:30:02	<tomsmeding>	yeah utf8
19:30:21	<tomsmeding>	this is the playground :p
19:30:21	<EvanR>	convert lazy bytestring to lazy text then? xD
19:30:32	<EvanR>	before converting to Encoding
19:30:35	<tomsmeding>	you make a very good point
19:31:11	<tomsmeding>	oooooh Data.Text.Lazy.Encoding TIL
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19:33:44	<EvanR>	decodeUtf8 Decode a ByteString containing UTF-8 encoded text that is known to be valid.
19:34:03	<tomsmeding>	yeah I'm going to decodeUtf8With lenientDecode
19:34:16	<EvanR>	screams "and this is where the program will crash because it can"
19:34:42	<tomsmeding>	:p
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19:36:33	<tomsmeding>	okay this saves like 3 internal imports and a bunch of weird bytestring chunking code
19:36:36	<tomsmeding>	EvanR++
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19:37:17	<tomsmeding>	still it's almost more imports than code :p https://paste.tomsmeding.com/dxn0cEcX
19:39:16	<EvanR>	more imports than code
19:39:25	<EvanR>	a t-shirtable moment
19:39:53	<tomsmeding>	if you remove all the empty lines it's an equal number of lines
19:40:17	<tomsmeding>	it's a pity it's hard to get more language extensions than code
19:40:22	<tomsmeding>	but sometimes I try hard
19:41:58	<EvanR>	alternate preludes are doing it backwards
19:42:12	<EvanR>	we need something to increase imports
19:43:33	<EvanR>	like an extension where you can only use the imported thing once, after that you gotta import another
19:43:48	<tomsmeding>	lol
19:43:55	<tomsmeding>	linear imports
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19:44:24	<tomsmeding>	"Be sparing with your library usage. Use -XLinearImports."
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19:56:18	<EvanR>	if somehow that speeds up linking, it might be worth it
19:56:48	<tomsmeding>	lol don't think so, linking happens much later
19:56:51	<tomsmeding>	EvanR: are you on windows
19:57:07	<EvanR>	no, windows is in cold storage
19:57:27	<tomsmeding>	was just guessing because link time on windows is _particularly_ bad
19:57:32	<EvanR>	oof
19:57:44	<tomsmeding>	I've seen hello world take 8secs to link
19:57:49	<tomsmeding>	on students' laptops
19:58:21	<tomsmeding>	though I later realised that the culprit might be the virus scanner -- but then still, people use those things and you can't just disable them
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19:59:32	<geekosaur>	reportedly things improve a bit with lld, which will be part of the new windows toolchain (I think that's coming with 9.4)
20:00:00	<tomsmeding>	probably not in time for september :p
20:00:39	<tomsmeding>	or if 9.4 drops before then, perhaps it won't be quite mature enough to throw in front of a bunch of students yet
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20:44:13	<roconnor>	How can I get Tasty to run tests concurrently?
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21:01:14	<byorgey>	roconnor: should just be as simple as +RTS -N8 or whatever. If you're running the test suite via e.g. stack, you can do something like --test-arguments '+RTS -N8 -RTS'
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21:08:42	<roconnor>	oh, that seems good.
21:08:55	<kronicma1>	anyone know how to configure which ghc stack uses when system-ghc is enabled? it keeps using the one I have in /usr/bin instead of the one in ~/.ghcup/bin that I want it to use
21:09:04	<roconnor>	byorgey: what if I'm running cabal test?
21:09:21	<maerwald>	kronicma1: check your $PATH variable
21:09:39	<kronicma1>	.ghcup/bin comes before /usr/bin in my path
21:10:20	<maerwald>	kronicma1: do both paths provide the same version?
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21:10:40	<kronicma1>	yes, but one is the arch linux install which has the dumb dynamic linking thing
21:10:46	<kronicma1>	hence why I want .ghcup/bin's ghc
21:11:00	<maerwald>	I'v pretty sure stack looks in PATH from left to right
21:11:08	<kronicma1>	apparently not
21:11:25	<maerwald>	would need more proof
21:11:47	<maerwald>	e.g. maybe ~/.ghcup/bin/ghc is broken
21:11:49	<maerwald>	or doesn't exist
21:14:29	<maerwald>	stack runs ghc: https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/blob/b9f1c21ed108d52e8e5919fc86c435726704746e/src/Stack/Setup.hs#L709-L829
21:14:37	<maerwald>	when trying to find a suitable compiler
21:14:45	<maerwald>	and then just tries the next one
21:14:50	<kronicma1>	maerwald: thanks for the help! turns out .ghcup/bin/ghc was actually a different version after all
21:14:58	<kronicma1>	just had to set the appropriate version in ghcup and it worked
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21:56:57	<Guest57>	Would findSum :: (Eq a, Num a) => a -> [a] -> (a, a)
21:56:57	<Guest57>	findSum n [x, y] = if (x + y) == n then (x, y) else (0, 0)
21:56:58	<Guest57>	findSum n (x:y:xs) = if (x + y) == n then (x, y) else findSum n (x:xs)
21:57:34	<Guest57>	be a good solution to the problem of taking a number and checking if that number is a result of any sums of numbers in a list?
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21:59:22	<EvanR>	a list comprehension which generates all (half, ish) pairs would simplify it
21:59:46	<Guest57>	oh okay
21:59:47	<Guest57>	thanks
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22:00:38	<pavonia>	Also you shouldn't return (0, 0) if there is not solution. Use a result type like Maybe (a, a) instead
22:01:02	<dolio>	That doesn't look like it checks all sums.
22:01:27	<EvanR>	that too
22:02:42	<dolio>	It looks like `findSum n (x:xs) = any (== m) xs where m = n - x`
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22:03:08	<dolio>	At least, for an equivalent of whether the list contains the number.
22:03:41	<dolio>	The result being `(x, n-x)`
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23:52:48	<Guest57>	dolio I've modified my code to check all combinations, but now I'm unsure of how to display the correct tuple. `findSums :: Integer -> [Integer] -> [Bool]
23:52:49	<Guest57>	findSums n list = map (==n) tupleList
23:52:49	<Guest57>	where tupleList = map tupleAdd (tupleCombinations list list)
23:52:50	<Guest57>	-- first list counts every combination the front number has with every other number
23:52:50	<Guest57>	-- second list makes sure that every number is tried
23:52:51	<Guest57>	tupleCombinations :: [a] -> [a] -> [(a, a)]
23:52:51	<Guest57>	tupleCombinations [a, b] [a2, b2] = (a, b) : []
23:52:52	<Guest57>	tupleCombinations [a, b] (x:y:ys) = (a, b) : tupleCombinations (y:ys) (y:ys)
23:52:52	<Guest57>	tupleCombinations (x:y:ys) list = (x, y) : tupleCombinations (x:ys) list
23:52:53	<Guest57>	tupleAdd :: (Integer, Integer) -> Integer
23:52:53	<Guest57>	tupleAdd (x, y) = x + y

All times are in UTC on 2022-05-14.