Logs on 2022-05-16 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:34	<jackdk>	I have to do a bit of work now, but mention my name if you don't understand a step and I'll check back (IRC predates the @name convention)
00:01:19	<melas>	oh dang. lightbulb moment. I get it now
00:01:26	<jackdk>	\o/
00:01:28	<melas>	THANK YOU so so much. Very useful
00:02:16	<melas>	Now I proceed with my day without frustration, haha. Gotta go clean the house. Thank you all again
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00:02:42	<jackdk>	Farewell and good luck
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00:14:52	<Axman6>	jackdk: maybe we bite the bullet and make the ghc-lens library. would be nice to be able to use TH to make the lenses and copy the dumped splices rather than the orphan Generic instances
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00:16:10	<Axman6>	jackdk: meta project: a plugin which can generate lenses from definitions in another library... which we can use for our plugin
00:16:21	<jackdk>	Axman6: I'm not thrilled at the prospect, because the maintenance is gonna suck
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00:17:01	<Axman6>	I would hope that the trees that grow work might make things a bit more stable these days
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00:40:43	<dibblego>	I have a similar project in my head
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00:58:56	<jackdk>	Axman6: TTG has some interesting consequences: you probably want to provide (e.g., for `HsDecl p`): `_TyClD :: Prism (HsDecl p) (HsDecl q) (XTyClD p, TyClDecl p) (XTyClD q, TyClDecl q)` as well as `_TyClD' :: (XTyClD p ~ (), XTyClD q ~ ()) => Prism (HsDecl p) (HsDecl q) (XTyClD p) (XTyClD q)`
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04:05:44	<dragestil>	I remember seeing somewhere a command or set of flags to use when cabal build so that the dependency problems in the output are more readable, but I can't find it anywhere
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04:40:21	<jackdk>	don't know it. meanwhile, pastebin your dependency error?
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04:49:06	<dragestil>	jackdk: thanks - i fixed it by relaxing some deps
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04:55:54	<steven>	hello, I made a hackage release for the first time just now, and I see that the documentation isn't showing for the new version. Is it expected, or did I do something wrong in the release? Here is the package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/microlens-mtl
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05:02:52	<dsal>	steven: "Docs pending" -- it can sometimes take a while.
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05:08:13	<steven>	dsal: ah thanks, I didn't see that part. I only saw "documentation unavailable". I also found that there's this script to build it myself https://hackage.haskell.org/upload
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05:08:24	<steven>	ok great, I will just wait and see then
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05:34:50	<jackdk>	dragestil: oh good
05:34:53	<jackdk>	glad to hear it
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12:28:47	<merijn>	bah, there's no cabal binaries for stupid old linuxes anymore :(
12:29:38	<dminuoso>	Serves you right for using stupid old linuxes.
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12:30:15	<exarkun>	all the cool kids are using the stupid new linuxes now merijn, what's holding you back
12:30:20	<merijn>	Like I have a choice
12:30:25	<dminuoso>	Is that your super computing thing?
12:30:34	<dminuoso>	Running on Debian 4?
12:30:44	<merijn>	If I had a choice I wouldn't be running any linux :p
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12:30:51	<merijn>	No CentOS 7 or something
12:31:03	<Bulby[m]>	what
12:31:10	<dminuoso>	Oh CentOS is the most frustrating accident at work here.
12:31:20	<dminuoso>	It's a good thing real CentOS doesnt exist anymore.
12:31:44	<merijn>	dminuoso: No, now I have to deal with 'fake even cludgier CentOS' on the new one
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12:34:52	<maerwald[m]>	Cabal binaries are statically linked
12:34:53	<maerwald[m]>	merijn: huh?
12:36:37	<merijn>	maerwald[m]: You need a new enough glibc
12:37:00	<merijn>	the current debian 10 binaries want glib 2.12 or newer
12:37:02	<maerwald[m]>	No
12:37:18	<maerwald[m]>	Fully statically linked
12:37:18	<merijn>	maerwald[m]: https://www.haskell.org/cabal/download.html
12:37:33	<merijn>	maerwald[m]: Well, feel free to explain why those error out on my system then
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12:38:48	<merijn>	Although the error doesn't seem to match the listed requirement with "cabal: /lib64/libm.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.27' not found (required by cabal) "
12:39:00	<maerwald[m]>	https://downloads.haskell.org/~cabal/cabal-install-3.6.2.0/cabal-install-3.6.2.0-i386-linux-alpine-static.tar.xz
12:39:21	<maerwald[m]>	You didn't use ghcup, that's why you're wasting time
12:39:37	<maerwald[m]>	https://downloads.haskell.org/~cabal/cabal-install-3.6.2.0/cabal-install-3.6.2.0-x86_64-linux-alpine-static.tar.xz rather
12:39:47	<merijn>	maerwald[m]: I tried that one and when I try and run it says "bash: /home/mverstra/.cabal/bin/cabal: No such file or directory" despite that file very much existing
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12:40:42	<maerwald[m]>	https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/unofficial-bindists/cabal/3.6.2.0/cabal-install-3.6.2.0-x86_64-linux-alpine-static.tar.xz
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12:40:56	<maerwald[m]>	This one definitely works on CentOS 7
12:41:02	<maerwald[m]>	I've used it there
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13:05:55	<arjun>	hi
13:06:21	<arjun>	is there a general go-to lib for databases ? (i know overloaded question)
13:07:00	<arjun>	i've been reading haskell-in-depth and the database chapter very nicely covers 3 or 4 implementations
13:07:18	<arjun>	hdbc, pg-simple, hasql and opaleye
13:07:25	<merijn>	postgres-simple/sqlite-simple
13:09:22	<arjun>	merijn, i see
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13:13:08	<dminuoso>	merijn: Wrong ELF interpreter
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13:13:43	<dminuoso>	That's one of those extremely poor diagnostics. If the requested elf interpreter cannot be found, you get these bizarre errors.
13:13:57	<dminuoso>	You can borrow nix's patchelf script to help with that
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13:27:06	<tdammers>	arjun: keep in mind that these cover slightly different parts of the abstraction stack. The "-simple" libraries only provide barebones access to the database server - you can send queries and receive results, and that's it. HDBC abstracts over different DBMSes, but still does nothing to help you write queries. Opaleye and Beam are about that; their main purpose is to present a type-safe EDSL for
13:27:08	<tdammers>	constructing SQL queries, and the "actually connect to a database and issue queries" bit is kind of a necessity, but not the main act.
13:27:42	<tdammers>	There's also persistent, which takes the abstraction yet a step further and "hides" the relational database from you entirely, for better or worse.
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13:30:09	<arjun>	tdammers, yea, it mentions hdbc as low level, pg-simple as mid level, and opaleye as sort of high level
13:30:44	<arjun>	hasql is weird in the sense it lets us go low level if we want but that gets complicated real quick
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13:32:01	<arjun>	we are spoiled for choice with these options, so i wondered if there is something that is more used in industry/ real-world codebases and yet let us maintain ergonomics
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13:34:14	<Axman6>	rel8 is also worth looking at, though I'm not sure if much has happened to its development since its announcement checks
13:34:38	<maerwald>	arjun: hasql is complicated?
13:34:41	<maerwald>	why so
13:34:48	<maerwald>	it's also safer than pg-simple
13:35:28	<Axman6>	you don't have to understand much to understand hasql
13:35:30	<arjun>	maerwald, yes, but we want something that there aren't encoders and decoders, we have to write them
13:36:07	<maerwald>	encoders and decoders aren't much different from ToField/FromField
13:36:19	<maerwald>	I'd argue typeclass based API is more awful (that includes aeson)
13:36:22	<Axman6>	if I were writing queries by hand, I'd definitely use hasql. rel8 is built o0n top of hasql and opaleye (uses opaleye to generate the SQL string which is then passed to hasql for its better performing binary wire protocol)
13:36:41	<arjun>	aeson and pg-simple are by the same author right?
13:36:46	<maerwald>	specifying encoders and decoders directly is more flexible
13:37:23	<arjun>	maerwald, Statement -> Sessions -> Running sessions that's the flow right?
13:38:29	<merijn>	tdammers: Probably best not advertise persistent, tbh
13:38:46	<merijn>	persistent is really dangerous, imo
13:39:06	<tdammers>	hmm, agree. dangerous, and also the wrong abstraction IMO.
13:39:12	<arjun>	Axman6, because of the type-safety?
13:39:20	<Axman6>	I had a project that used persistent and I regretted it, and moving off it was pretty painful and fragile. I had big hopes for beam
13:39:52	<Axman6>	mostly because of the heavy reliance of template haskell obscuring everything. this was many years ago so things might have changed, but it burnt me pretty bad
13:40:05	<Axman6>	hasql was significantly easier and much faster for that projct
13:40:06	<maerwald>	arjun: https://github.com/haskellari/postgresql-simple/issues/58 is one major issue
13:40:08	<Axman6>	project*
13:40:11	<maerwald>	and hasql is very modular
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13:41:14	<merijn>	Axman6: It's only gotten worse
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13:41:25	<Axman6>	maerwald: uh, excuse me? that issue is terrifying, wtf, I am about to go to sleep, how am I supposed to sleep knowing that isasue exists!
13:41:32	<maerwald>	well
13:41:34	<merijn>	Axman6: Because a bunch of stuff in conduit/resourcet changed, but the persistent API wasn't changed to accommodate those changes
13:41:43	<Axman6>	D:
13:41:46	<merijn>	So there's a bunch of subtle resource leak issues you can easily trigger with persistent
13:41:54	<maerwald>	merijn: you mean the MonadBaseControl -> MonadUnliftIO change?
13:41:54	<merijn>	But the APIs don't make that obvious
13:42:01	<arjun>	maerwald just gave us the red pill
13:42:18	<merijn>	maerwald: That's only the case in multi-threaded code and not the main culprit
13:42:20	<arjun>	well, tdammers did : p
13:42:34	<merijn>	maerwald: The main culprit is that conduit was initially designed to have early finalization of resources
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13:42:43	<merijn>	And all the persistent conduit APIs were designed around that
13:42:45	<maerwald>	yeah and then snoyman decided to not like it
13:43:02	<merijn>	Conduit no longer has early resource finalization, but persistent's APIs weren't updated for that change
13:43:10	<merijn>	So you can easily leak resources that way
13:43:45	<merijn>	I don't think anyone who hasn't read persistents code/contributed to it can safely use it
13:43:49	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-streams-streamly
13:43:51	<maerwald>	omg
13:43:53	<maerwald>	nice
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13:43:58	<maerwald>	automatic cursor based streaming via streamly
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13:44:04	<arjun>	w00t
13:44:09	<arjun>	0.0
13:44:12	<Axman6>	:o
13:44:29	<Axman6>	I remember years ago making tickets to get streaming in hasql
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13:44:48	<maerwald>	https://github.com/andremarianiello/hasql-streams
13:44:59	<maerwald>	someone just made a library for all of them
13:45:03	<maerwald>	conduit, pipes, ...
13:45:07	<Axman6>	hmm, maybe I made that up
13:45:10	<arjun>	there's also a https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-streams-streaming
13:45:14	<arjun>	nice
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13:46:49	<arjun>	they're all released on the the same date
13:47:05	<maerwald>	see the github link
13:47:41	<arjun>	yea
13:48:02	<arjun>	i wonder if it's a bot, that'd be dope
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13:54:55	<apache2>	I'd like to define a type that contains a tuple and an Int and have it fit with 'Real a', how do I best do this?
13:55:21	<apache2>	err it should be a tuple of whichever type and an Int, and I want it to use the Int for the Real stuff
13:57:02	<apache2>	can I use this? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.12.0.0/docs/Data-Functor-Const.html#t:Const
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14:48:47	<geekosaur[m][m]>	You probably can't do it because you need to support `fromInteger` and that means generating a value for the tuple out of thin air
14:50:21	<geekosaur[m][m]>	Which means the values in the tuple must be instances of Monoid or Default or some other class that provides default values
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14:53:10	<geekosaur[m][m]>	Er, types of the values
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14:57:08	<apache2>	geekosaur[m][m]: hmm I think I managed it by providing a fake frominteger
14:57:15	<apache2>	that just sets the first tuple element
14:57:22	<apache2>	and then I pray it doesn't get called by th elibrary I'm using
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15:11:12	<slack1256>	At work we use `stack` to manage dependencies, but there is a blind spot for installing the haskell-language-server for VSCode. What is the recomended setup now? install everything with `ghcup` and then enable `system-ghc: true` at the stack.yaml?
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15:19:54	<maerwald>	slack1256: it can also work without system-ghc:true
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15:20:08	<maerwald>	but then you may run into this https://github.com/haskell/vscode-haskell#ghc-abis-dont-match
15:20:13	<maerwald>	which can be fixed in your stack.yaml
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15:36:01	<slack1256>	Gotcha. It seems the easiest option is `system-ghc: true` and jump onto the ghcup bandwagon.
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15:36:30	<maerwald>	the reason this broke were missing profiling libs in GHC 9.0.2 bindist
15:37:00	<maerwald>	and stack installs that GHC without profiling libs
15:37:19	<maerwald>	the fixed bindist turned out to have a diverging ABI though
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15:40:02	<maerwald>	you may get miscompilation or other errors if you don't clear your cache when switching bindists
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17:40:55	<[exa]>	anyone going to zurihac?
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17:42:18	<geekosaur[m][m]>	Sadly, no
17:43:08	<[exa]>	;_;
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17:44:13	<maerwald>	geekosaur[m][m]: you mean no one is going?
17:44:57	<maerwald>	wait, is it next month already?
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17:48:23	<geekosaur[m][m]>	I had a vague hope I could meet up with the other xmonad maintainers, but it's not working out
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18:09:10	<sm>	ack
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18:09:36	<maerwald>	sm: you coming?
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18:09:53	<sm>	alas no!
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18:10:29	<[exa]>	;_;
18:10:45	<sm>	wow cool logo https://zfoh.ch/zurihac2022/
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18:11:36	<sm>	and page. Now I want to go more, nice work web devs
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21:03:45	<tomsmeding>	[summer school ad] for those learning haskell and wanting to progress beyond beginner material, there's this nice summer school in The Netherlands organised by some nice people: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2022-May/135299.html
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21:23:06	<hpc>	don't let the name deceive you, you learn all the seasons there :P
21:23:29	<sm>	trending haskell projects: https://www.libhunt.com/l/haskell/trending
21:23:33	<hpc>	spring framework, AI winter, etc
21:24:00	<tomsmeding>	hpc: you won't learn java or AI there, sorry :p
21:24:00	<sm>	and our "top programming languages by social mentions" rank: https://www.libhunt.com/index#haskell
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21:48:47	<maerwald>	web assembly doesn't seem too popular
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21:52:02	MironZ8	is now known as MironZ
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21:58:35	<sm>	https://www.libhunt.com/l/haskell is better actually, more search options. ShellCheck is current popularity king it seems
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22:02:29	<geekosaur>	I'm curious that kmonad is so popular
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22:06:52	<maerwald>	uhm... is that trying to do what qmk does in "userland"?
22:07:49	<maerwald>	can't imagine living without a qmk board anymore anyway
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22:52:55	<geekosaur>	sorry for the voice message earlier, apparently element on android can get into some very odd states. had to reboot the phone to fix it
22:53:39	<geekosaur>	but yes, that earlier problem was a bad ELF interpreter. in a system whose only diagnostic is a numeric error code, it's difficult to indicate that the ENOENT applies to a different filre
22:54:15	<geekosaur>	suppose alternately there could be a catch-all error indicating a bad interpreter, but that then leaves you guessing at the problem
22:55:18	<geekosaur>	"objdump -j .interp -s $file" is helpful here
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23:01:15	<seydar>	is there a consensus on which option parser to use?
23:01:53	<geekosaur>	optparse-applicative seems to be most popular
23:02:12	<geekosaur>	cmdargs is second
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23:04:05	<sm>	cmdargs #1 for me! for better docs
23:04:12	<geekosaur>	actually there's a more scientific way to do this, https://packdeps.haskellers.com/reverse and look at the dependents for each one
23:04:29	<sm>	+1
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23:05:28	<sm>	I just announced https://haskell-links.org , with more links cleanup since I last mentioned it here
23:05:51	<geekosaur>	cmdargs 276, optparse-applicative 867
23:05:59	<sm>	more search links / more ui cleanup. . I probably should have asked for more browser testing here first. Please let me know how horribly broken it looks in your tools
23:07:02	<sm>	I also like cmdargs for being monolithic - one package proving the easy, medium, hard APIs. optparse is an ecosystem
23:07:34	<sm>	third, the name is hard. Ok I'll stop.
23:07:59	<geekosaur>	on the flip side some people don't like cmdargs because simple mode unsafePerformIO-s all over the place
23:08:22	<EvanR>	surely the command line args "are pure" xD
23:08:59	<peddie>	doesn't one also have to make sure not to use certain optimizations with `cmdargs`?
23:09:07	<maerwald>	I'd like a declarative way for cmdline programs. Don't think we have that
23:09:11	<EvanR>	similar to the System.Info.os xD
23:09:12	<geekosaur>	yes, because of thos eunsafePerformIOs
23:09:38	<peddie>	that was a pretty big warning flag for me
23:10:03	<maerwald>	EvanR: huh?
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23:10:27	<EvanR>	os :: String
23:10:33	<maerwald>	EvanR: that's a static value
23:10:42	<maerwald>	at compile time
23:10:44	<EvanR>	and command line args?
23:10:51	<geekosaur>	dynamic at runtime
23:11:07	<EvanR>	I'll let yall stew on this xD
23:11:08	<sm>	geekosaur: very true, they don't. As I was saying the other day, I feel this is dogma. As well documented it provides three apis, from easy to 100% pure
23:11:51	<sm>	and has anyone ever had a problem with cmdargs caused by this ? I'm willing to learn
23:12:01	<peddie>	I have been bitten by this
23:12:09	<EvanR>	I dunno what shell you use, but I have to write out the command line args entirely before the program runs
23:12:23	<EvanR>	after my last key stroke, they can't change, even before the program is running xD
23:12:25	<sm>	how so peddie, and which api were you using ?
23:13:04	<peddie>	sm: wrong optimization options. probably the simple one -- I didn't look at the others, I switched to `optparse-applicative` in half an hour, which seems to me to be both simple and 100% pure
23:13:20	<geekosaur>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/8.10.7/docs/html/libraries/base-4.14.3.0/System-Environment.html#v:withArgs
23:13:31	<geekosaur>	getArgs is runtime variable
23:13:59	<geekosaur>	(ghci uses this to implement :main)
23:14:00	<hpc>	EvanR: argv is mutable
23:14:12	<peddie>	sm: this was about 4 years ago, so I don't remember the API details. I've never had a reason to check the docs again
23:14:17	<geekosaur>	you can also edit the arguments in a C call
23:14:20	<EvanR>	I knew the house of cards would come crashing down eventually
23:14:33	<maerwald>	EvanR: also, the string you pass into optparse-applicative gets f'ed up into String and your encoding is lost
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23:14:55	<sm>	peddie: glad you found a solution. Every time I tried optparse-applicative I hit a wall, so that's my reason
23:14:57	<maerwald>	https://github.com/pcapriotti/optparse-applicative/issues/368
23:15:05	<EvanR>	nice
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23:15:37	<peddie>	sm: I imagine this is probably not your issue, but just in case, are you trying to read the haddocks instead of the github readme? for some reason all the useful documentation for `optparse-applicative` is in the github `README.md`
23:15:48	<sm>	no, that's not the issue
23:16:01	<sm>	peddie: I'd also like to know how exactly it bit you ? What did you notice ? If you remember
23:16:10	<peddie>	OK, I figured it was unlikely, but I have seen multiple people get tripped up by that :)
23:16:25	<hpc>	s/github readme/readme
23:16:27	<hpc>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-applicative
23:16:31	<hpc>	just scroll down
23:16:49	<geekosaur>	(also I almost said "in a C hook" earlier. did my brain regress to the 80s?)
23:16:57	<peddie>	hpc: good point, I forgot it is shown on there now
23:17:14	<peddie>	sm: if I recall correctly, some argument was mysteriously not being applied when I passed it on the command line
23:17:46	<hpc>	make it non-mysteriously not applied :P
23:18:54	<peddie>	hpc: :) it was a mystery to me for a couple hours
23:19:14	<sm>	I wonder how that happened
23:20:25	<peddie>	sm: I let the optimizer be too aggressive, and it didn't play well with the impure stuff under the hood . . . I think this behavior is documented, I just didn't check the issues first
23:20:33	<sm>	and if the doc notes like Even using this scheme, sometimes GHC's optimisations may share values who have the same annotation. To disable sharing you may need to specify {-# OPTIONS_GHC -fno-cse #-} in the module helped
23:21:49	<sm>	I have always used the explicit api so don't have experience with this
23:22:32	<peddie>	sm: yes, that is the doc note. if I had applied that first, I probably wouldn't have hit the issue. but that's what I referred to earlier as a "warning flag" . . . that seems pretty unnecessary to me just to parse argv
23:24:36	<sm>	not to argue with you, but I think it's clear that it's not necessary - unless you want this magical simple api, which all other cool languages have - which I believe is nice to have available
23:25:11	<sm>	but maybe it could be documented better
23:25:27	<peddie>	I agree it's not necessary. once bitten, twice shy, I guess. I'm not telling anyone not to use it :) but you asked if it had caused problems for anyone
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23:25:38	<sm>	yeah! I appreciate the details
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23:26:53	<peddie>	to me, "here is a friendly API, by the way, don't forget to turn on a GHC optimizer pragma or you will get silent breakage" just smelt a bit odd
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23:27:11	<seydar>	how do i see what cabal packages I have installed? I'm trying to turn my blurhash algorithm into a cabal package, but I need to list a specific version of juicypixels, and I think I installed a weird version of the package because it says I don't have juicypixels installed
23:27:28	<sm>	most of the community has been avoiding cmdargs for years, and I feel it's excessive and a pity, given the pain I've had with optparse, but definitely YMMV
23:27:31	<peddie>	sm: what walls have you encountered with `optparse-applicative`? I haven't done anything complicated with it
23:28:04	<sm>	in early attempts it was just missing docs, getting things done was highly non-obvious
23:28:08	<seydar>	nobody uses lmgtfy you anymore, but it would've been appropriate to thow back at me here
23:28:47	<EvanR>	hopefully "googling" is becoming less of a verb and maybe people use another search xD
23:28:53	<sm>	nowadays it's mainly not knowing how to control things precisely (I demand a lot from my options parser)
23:29:09	<peddie>	sm: I'll never blame someone for bailing on an underdocumented Haskell package . . . it's a common problem
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23:29:19	<sm>	also, the hassle of figuring out which addons I need to make it easier
23:29:30	<maerwald>	peddie: there are worse examples though :p
23:29:42	<geekosaur[m][m]>	seydar, normally you lost the version you need and cabal does the rest. In this case you may need to list it as a setup package
23:29:55	<peddie>	maerwald: totally agree, and for what it's worth, I don't think it's underdocumented today
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23:30:20	<maerwald>	here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/syb
23:30:39	<maerwald>	documentation: no. Link to paper: broken
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23:31:34	<seydar>	geekosaur[m][m]: gotcha. i'm trying to add the version that I have to my blur.cabal file, but `cabal list --installed` doesn't actually list juicypixels... so i'm not sure how my code has been compiling
23:31:42	<sm>	seydar: generally, by running `ghc-pkg list`. In a stack or cabal project, usually prefix that with `stack/cabal exec --`
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23:32:39	<sm>	you're probably in the wrong project context, so using the wrong package db. It's a terribly common problem.
23:33:57	<seydar>	even when I got to my home directory, it doesn't see any of the packages that I've recently installed
23:33:59	<geekosaur>	or it needs to be a setup-depends
23:34:11	<seydar>	namely optparse-applicative or juicypixels
23:34:18	<geekosaur>	right, cabal deliberately hides packages to avoid conflicts between multiple versions
23:34:34	<geekosaur>	you need to be inside a project which has declared a dependency on those
23:34:57	<geekosaur>	or if you want to play in the repl, cabal repl --build-depends="..."
23:35:32	<geekosaur>	everything in cabal is automatically sandboxed to a project
23:35:49	<seydar>	this is madness
23:35:51	<seydar>	who approved this
23:36:12	<seydar>	if i'm starting a new project, how would i find out what packages are available to me?
23:36:22	<geekosaur>	there is also a way to export things but then you're running the risk of those collisions this is avoiding
23:36:39	<geekosaur>	you don't, you declare dependencies and let cabal install or expose them as needed
23:36:58	<geekosaur>	cabal does the hard work, you just declare dependencies and get to coding
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23:37:26	<geekosaur>	in the bad old days, you had to track this yourself and it was a nightmare if two projects required different versions of a library
23:37:58	<geekosaur>	cabal and stack both solve this with automatic sandboxing, choosing slightly different ways to manage dependencies
23:38:12	<seydar>	i just feel like it would be handy to see a list of packages that cabal has installed on my machine
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23:38:24	<seydar>	i feel like i'm asking for salt at a fancy restaurant
23:38:32	<sm>	seydar, I gave the command, did you see ?
23:38:56	<geekosaur>	that shows what's exposed
23:39:08	<sm>	also unexposed
23:39:23	<sm>	speaking of ghc-pkg's hide/expose feature.
23:40:01	<geekosaur>	on unix you can see the whole list of installed packages and versions with: ls ~/.cabal/store/ghc-<version>
23:40:11	<seydar>	sm: both of those still only list a subset of the packages that i know i have
23:40:16	<geekosaur>	as opposed to simply the ones available in a given project
23:40:32	<geekosaur>	I don't know where the store lives on windows
23:40:45	<sm>	seydar, the point is there's multiple package databases, so you have to be in the right one to see what's there. There is also a global database for stack and I believe cabal too, which you can see by being in $HOME.
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23:41:26	<sclv>	what geekosaur just said is what i was just going to suggest -- that's literally everything cabal has built for that ghc version
23:41:31	<sm>	as for listing what packages are available to install, that's a different question, and I don't think we have a command line tool for it, you have to look on hackage or stackage websites
23:41:53	<seydar>	i'm going to build this cabal package/eat this cauliflower the way you're all telling me to
23:41:56	<seydar>	but in the future
23:42:07	<geekosaur>	I gave you the command to list the store
23:42:09	<sclv>	`cabal list` does list all packages on hackage, or let you search them
23:42:20	<seydar>	i'm going to write my haskell program as a library, leave the compiled C, and then connect to that via FFI from ruby and distribute it as a gem
23:42:30	<geekosaur>	that's everything cabal has locally already and will expose instead of downloading and building if you declare a dependency on it
23:43:00	<sm>	sclv: ah, nice
23:43:16	<seydar>	geekosaur: that worked, thank you
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23:43:26	<seydar>	i can see which version of pixels i'm using, but optparse-applicative is still MIA
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23:44:56	<sm>	you know you have it because... `cabal build` builds something depending on it ?
23:46:05	<seydar>	i have not been using cabal for this project
23:46:19	<sclv>	what have you been using
23:46:21	<seydar>	i was programming the the Ancients did: `ghc -O2 Main.hs`
23:46:24	<sm>	ok.. stack build ?
23:46:27	<geekosaur>	if you installed it without cabal, then ghc-pkg list --user
23:46:54	<geekosaur>	(assuming you didn't use stack, but it sounds like you didn't)
23:47:01	<sclv>	also if you have something in scope in ghci and you don't know where it came from, then `ghc --show-packages` will dump out all the info it has around extremely explicitly
23:47:18	<geekosaur>	but it'll be invisible to anything you install with cabal
23:47:27	<seydar>	i was using cabal for packages and then just happily imported them in my code
23:47:46	<sclv>	you were using `cabal install` you mean?
23:47:50	<geekosaur>	you should probably pick one way and stick to it. and remember that if you're using the old Setup.hs method then dealing with multiple versions becomes your problem to sort out
23:47:59	<sm>	... "it's complicated" ... :(
23:48:03	<sclv>	or `cabal install --lib` or ... ?
23:49:40	<seydar>	sclv: i was using `cabal install` and then i'd sometimes do `cabal install --lib` again afterwards, but it never did anything
23:50:09	<geekosaur>	all cabal install --lib does is write an export record to a ghc environment file pointing to the already installed version
23:50:10	<seydar>	geekosaur: I was using only `cabal install` before and compiling my code with regular `ghc`
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23:51:05	<geekosaur>	only if there's no already installed version does it install it (cabal-style) first, then write the export record
23:51:08	<sclv>	ok so everything ghc can see based on running `cabal install --lib` will be a combination of the stuff in `ghc-pkg list` and whatever is in your environment file.
23:51:47	<sclv>	which is going to be in a directory something like `~/.ghc/x86_64-darwin-8.10.4/environments`
23:52:31	<seydar>	i feel like i'm taking crazy pills
23:53:04	<maerwald>	welcome to haskell tooling
23:53:08	<sclv>	i also feel like you are taking crazy pills
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23:56:03	<sm>	seydar: understandable.. it gets somewhat better..
23:57:27	<seydar>	can i specify the build-depends outside of executable and library for use by them both?
23:57:43	<sm>	FWIW there are a bunch of haskell setups .. it was a bit unclear which you were/are using
23:58:00	<sm>	yes you can
23:58:33	<sclv>	well to specify the depends and reuse them, you use a common stanza and import it
23:59:04	<sclv>	https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-package.html#common-stanzas

All times are in UTC on 2022-05-16.