Logs on 2022-05-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:01:59 | <sm> | hpc: thanks, how are you leaving the page ? clicking the wrong thing ? |
| 00:02:08 | <hpc> | yeah |
| 00:02:17 | <hpc> | i will go "ooh, let's apply this quick filter" |
| 00:02:20 | <hpc> | *left click* |
| 00:02:27 | <hpc> | and then i am on reddit or something |
| 00:02:44 | <hpc> | because i just wasn't looking at the bottom-left corner |
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| 00:04:18 | <hpc> | my brain goes "example searches are blue links, here's other blue links, don't read the black text" |
| 00:04:40 | <sm> | your screen might well look different from mine. What are you meaning to click on ? |
| 00:04:57 | <sm> | the "Example searches" ? |
| 00:05:09 | <sm> | I see |
| 00:05:29 | <hpc> | yeah |
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| 00:05:44 | <sm> | I thought of splitting About into separate collapsible About and Search Tools sections |
| 00:06:33 | <sm> | they could be just links in the table as you say, but I think some carefully curated entry points are quite useful to have somewhere prominent |
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| 00:07:09 | <sm> | but down the road who knows. I know it's a ton of links too close together (Google told me this also) |
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| 00:13:51 | <sm> | I find it useful to have a dense overview and portal for the whole ecosystem in one place |
| 00:15:03 | <hpc> | yeah, i would rather err in this way than in wasting a whole 1080p screen on 3 links :D |
| 00:17:10 | sm | restores whitespace between about items which got lost |
| 00:28:43 | <sm> | and a bit of line-height and nowrap |
| 00:29:42 | <hpc> | wrap the whole thing in <marquee> for old time's sake |
| 00:32:44 | <jackdk> | It's a shame that <marquee> is gone, given how wide screens have become |
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| 00:33:46 | <sm> | hpc: you got it. since it's awesome |
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| 01:05:52 | <Axman6> | Anyone know where the HaXml documentation is? it references haskell.org/HaXml which as far as I can see hasn't existed since as far back as 2013 |
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| 01:08:53 | <sm> | https://github.com/HaXml/HaXml/tree/main/docs it seems |
| 01:10:25 | <Axman6> | FFS, even that doesn't have XsdToHaskell.html |
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| 01:12:06 | <Axman6> | well, just passing the xsd file produces _something_ so that's a start I guess |
| 01:13:13 | <Axman6> | hahaha, ok, don't pass multiple arguments to it... it overwrites the second with the Haskell generated from the first |
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| 01:13:42 | <Axman6> | now to get that XSD file back... |
| 01:14:17 | <sm> | one should not provoke the ancient libraries |
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| 01:18:26 | <jackdk> | @remember sm one should not provoke the ancient libraries |
| 01:18:26 | <lambdabot> | It is forever etched in my memory. |
| 01:20:59 | <sm> | nice interview: https://serokell.io/blog/haskell-in-production-simplex |
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| 01:47:13 | <raehik> | I'm finding in GHC 9.2 I can't write typeclass methods that return an unlifted type / anything other than `Type`. This seems to disagree with some code I'm finding, and the 2017 levity polymorphism paper |
| 01:48:15 | <raehik> | even `class C where c :: Word8#` doesn't work |
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| 01:56:36 | <raehik> | Huh. You have to use a function type |
| 01:57:11 | <raehik> | class C where c :: Proxy# c -> Word8# works. why? |
| 01:57:19 | <monochrom> | Is "class D where d :: Int" legal? How do I write an instance of D? |
| 01:57:34 | <raehik> | Oh, it's impossible, but doesn't matter |
| 01:57:42 | <raehik> | class C a where c :: Proxy# a -> Word8# works. why? |
| 01:57:49 | <raehik> | *oops, sorry. added the type var |
| 01:58:18 | <monochrom> | Every method must mention the type variable? So that a use site of a method can actually get resolved? |
| 01:58:39 | <monochrom> | Imagine if "class D a where d :: Int" were allowed. |
| 01:58:56 | <raehik> | That is fine |
| 01:58:59 | <raehik> | :t maxBound |
| 01:59:01 | <lambdabot> | Bounded a => a |
| 01:59:17 | <monochrom> | That mentions the type variable "a". |
| 01:59:31 | <monochrom> | whereas "c :: Whatever" has no type variable whatsoever. |
| 01:59:43 | <monochrom> | At this point it doesn't even involve levity. |
| 02:00:00 | <monochrom> | At this point you're talking about "class D a where d :: Int". |
| 02:00:06 | <raehik> | hrm. I thought I had written classes like that before |
| 02:00:20 | <raehik> | kind of just to be dictionaries I would use type applications with |
| 02:01:18 | <raehik> | not saying that's good design, but I'm fairly certain that all compiles fine |
| 02:01:38 | <raehik> | class D a where d :: Int ; instance D Bool where d = 0 ; d @Bool |
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| 02:01:54 | <jackdk> | monochrom: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/nullary_type_classes.html#extension-NullaryTypeClasses |
| 02:02:28 | <monochrom> | So perhaps you just have to turn on that extension? |
| 02:02:43 | <jackdk> | these days it's deprecated in favour of MultiParamTypeClasses |
| 02:02:45 | <raehik> | no no, that's not the problem! that all compiles fine and is unrelated |
| 02:03:05 | <raehik> | I can't define a typeclass method that returns an unlifted data type without making it a function type |
| 02:03:24 | <raehik> | Even if I make it Proxy# -> a, which as I understand is just a at runtime |
| 02:03:30 | <jackdk> | monochrom: your `class D` is probably also usable with `-XAllowAmbiguousType` at the definition and `-XTypeApplications` at the call site |
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| 02:04:35 | <jackdk> | raehik: I don't understand levity stuff very well, is there perhaps something going on where it can't put an unlifted value directly into the typeclass dictionary, but a function type has kind `Type`? |
| 02:05:06 | <raehik> | jackdk: sounds realistic enough to me, I don't know it well either |
| 02:05:35 | <raehik> | wonder if there is a difference between `Proxy# x -> a` and `a` at runtime then. idk |
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| 02:07:23 | <raehik> | thanks. in any case I can have a go |
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| 02:44:50 | <Zemyla> | raehik: I'm pretty sure there is, and that's why I push for values of Tagged x a in typeclasses. |
| 02:45:40 | <raehik> | I think it's to do with dictionary passing that I know 0 about |
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| 03:36:00 | <koala_man> | Someone posted an issue saying that 7 year old ShellCheck versions don't build with modern GHC, and that they "should ideally get some Hackage revisions that remove any invalid build plans for these versions". What does this mean? Am I supposed to be deprecating older packages somehow? |
| 03:41:26 | <jackdk> | koala_man: this is because the hackage releases either have really loose upper bounds (e.g. 0.4.6 depends on `base >= 4 && <5`), or puts no bounds on the deps at all (e.g. 0.8.0 depends on `process` without bounds). |
| 03:42:50 | <koala_man> | I see. How do I know which upper bound to use? |
| 03:43:04 | <jackdk> | koala_man: under the haskell Package Version Policy, the first two parts of a version number w.x.y.z (the `w.x`) denote the major version. |
| 03:43:09 | <jackdk> | https://pvp.haskell.org/ |
| 03:43:53 | <koala_man> | so I should just specify < w.(x+1) for a current version w.x? |
| 03:43:56 | <jackdk> | You can use `cabal gen-bounds` as a start, and then `cabal outdated` to see which things have newer versions |
| 03:44:16 | <jackdk> | And once w.(x+1) is known, you can raise it further |
| 03:44:37 | <koala_man> | Can I raise it after the fact for a published package? |
| 03:45:20 | <jackdk> | also there's a ^>= operator that's a convenient shorthand: search "caret": https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html |
| 03:46:49 | <koala_man> | neat |
| 03:48:48 | <jackdk> | and to answer your question: yes, this is called a "metadata revision", which lets you change things like dependency bounds without uploading an entirely new release |
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| 03:53:38 | <jackdk> | koala_man: ah, found something useful for you! https://github.com/haskell-infra/hackage-trustees/blob/master/revisions-information.md |
| 03:55:19 | <koala_man> | thanks, I'll try to figure out the appropriate bounds and add a revision |
| 03:57:33 | <jackdk> | If there's a fair number of these, you could also ask the hackage trustees for advice |
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| 08:36:51 | <kuribas> | Maybe Void is isomorphic to () right? |
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| 08:37:43 | <kuribas> | :k Maybe Void |
| 08:37:44 | <lambdabot> | * |
| 08:37:50 | <Hecate> | kuribas: isomorphic == same cardinality? |
| 08:37:59 | <[exa]> | kuribas: you can patternmatch 2 constructors out of () ? |
| 08:38:18 | <Hecate> | [exa]: yes that's the second question I wanted to ask |
| 08:38:25 | <[exa]> | :] |
| 08:38:27 | <kuribas> | [exa]: no? |
| 08:38:30 | <Hecate> | if you're thinking purely in terms of cardinality, then yes |
| 08:38:45 | <[exa]> | kuribas: but you can from `Maybe Void` |
| 08:38:57 | <kuribas> | "In mathematics, an isomorphism is a structure-preserving mapping between two structures of the same type that can be reversed by an inverse mapping." |
| 08:39:45 | <kuribas> | toTuple Nothing = (); toTuple (Just v) = absurd v |
| 08:39:58 | <kuribas> | toMaybe () = Nothing |
| 08:40:30 | <kuribas> | I don't see what pattern matching has to do with that? |
| 08:41:09 | <kuribas> | Is pattern matching a requirement of an isomorphism? |
| 08:41:42 | <[exa]> | kuribas: your function pair isn't isomorphism, there isn't anything that would regenerate `Just *` |
| 08:42:10 | <kuribas> | *? |
| 08:42:23 | <[exa]> | I mean, `Just _`, anything that starts with Just |
| 08:42:44 | <kuribas> | It's void, so nothing can start with Just. |
| 08:42:54 | <[exa]> | then it's not isomorphism |
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| 08:43:29 | <[exa]> | anyway `Just undefined` is perfectly okay, no one forces you to _create_ the values, to form an isomorphism you are only interested in the mapping back and forth |
| 08:43:32 | <kuribas> | Well, assuming no bottom. |
| 08:44:27 | <kuribas> | right, so it's not isomorphic because of bottom? |
| 08:44:36 | <kuribas> | But if you assume there is no bottom, it's isomorphic? |
| 08:44:39 | <[exa]> | assuming no bottom the definition of Maybe Void is IMO invalid, but once you manually assume that `data Maybe Void = Nothing`, they would be isomorphic |
| 08:45:18 | <[exa]> | still, Void is there for the reason that `Just void` is _not_ bottom |
| 08:45:34 | <[exa]> | (s/void/somevoid, not the monadic void) |
| 08:45:54 | <kuribas> | putting bottom inside a void seems to defy the idea of Void. |
| 08:46:17 | <[exa]> | yeah but you don't need to do that :] |
| 08:46:42 | <kuribas> | In idris they would be isomorphic. |
| 08:46:56 | <kuribas> | since Just _|_ == _|_ |
| 08:47:29 | <kuribas> | It's only lazyness which makes them not isomorphic. |
| 08:48:10 | <[exa]> | but Void is not bottom, it's just uninhabited |
| 08:48:29 | <kuribas> | I didn't say Void is bottom? |
| 08:48:38 | <[exa]> | you wrote Just _|_ |
| 08:49:05 | <kuribas> | :t (Just undefined) :: Maybe Void |
| 08:49:06 | <lambdabot> | Maybe Void |
| 08:49:10 | <kuribas> | seems ok; |
| 08:49:18 | <[exa]> | works, a haskell way to inhabit it |
| 08:50:20 | <kuribas> | in idris Just is total |
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| 08:50:37 | <kuribas> | So you cannot do Just _|_ , right? |
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| 08:51:20 | <[Leary]> | You can make a strict Maybe in Haskell if you really want, and you'll have your isomorphism. |
| 08:51:29 | <kuribas> | \o/ |
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| 08:51:52 | <[exa]> | strictness makes me ;_; |
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| 09:02:48 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: an isomorphism is a bijection that furthermore preserves some kind of structure |
| 09:03:11 | <tomsmeding> | if you're looking just at cardinality, then you're thinking of isomorphisms between sets, which are more commonly called bijections |
| 09:03:35 | <tomsmeding> | so if you're saying "isomorphic" without a further qualifier, I'd assume there is some other structure that you want preserved as well |
| 09:04:28 | <kuribas> | no, I was thinking that the "Just _" case is impossible, but as [exa] showed, it's not impossible with lazyness. |
| 09:05:38 | <tomsmeding> | interesting side note for this laziness effect: ghc's coverage checker understands this |
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| 09:06:16 | <tomsmeding> | so if you have 'data T a = A Int | B a', then 'f :: T Void -> Int ; f (A n) = n' gives a warning that not all cases are handled |
| 09:06:29 | <tomsmeding> | but if you add a ! to the 'a' in the 'B' constructor of 'T', then the warning goes away |
| 09:06:55 | <tomsmeding> | I thought this was pretty neat when I first ran into this |
| 09:07:18 | <kuribas> | nice |
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| 10:25:44 | <kuribas> | Wouldn't it be nice to have an easier TH macro system, like scheme syntax-case? |
| 10:26:00 | <kuribas> | Where you provide some input that is matched on, and some output using substitution. |
| 10:26:11 | <kuribas> | It will be less powerful, but easier to use than plain TH. |
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| 10:31:17 | <[exa]> | kuribas: I'd love that, but kinda afraid of the difference between scheme and haskell syntax complexity |
| 10:31:50 | <kuribas> | yeah, the haskell version would be more elaborate. |
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| 12:35:42 | <kritzefitz> | kuribas: I think macros in Rust kinda work like that, despite Rust' syntax being similarly complex as Haskell's. |
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| 12:43:06 | <geekosaur> | hypothetically you can use quasiquoters that way |
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| 12:48:26 | <dminuoso_> | maerwald: https://i.imgur.com/8kUHBbn.png |
| 12:48:34 | <dminuoso_> | I really dislike hasql for this. |
| 12:48:58 | <dminuoso_> | Ah but hold on, I may need to control cabal-plan |
| 12:49:01 | <dminuoso_> | test components made their way in |
| 12:50:11 | <dminuoso_> | https://i.imgur.com/aREFYHr.png |
| 12:50:13 | <dminuoso_> | It's still horrid |
| 12:51:32 | <dminuoso_> | aeson is a big part of this problem, but you cant simply opt out of this. |
| 12:53:06 | <dminuoso_> | Maybe hackage should just draw the dependency tree of some recent cabal plan against hackage right at the landing page of a package, just so users know what they're getting into |
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| 12:57:44 | <geekosaur> | ob https://ro-che.info/ccc/23 |
| 13:01:25 | <merijn> | !! |
| 13:01:34 | <merijn> | LaTeX math support for github readmes! |
| 13:01:38 | <merijn> | Haskell nerds rejoice :p |
| 13:01:47 | <tomsmeding> | ö |
| 13:02:08 | <yushyin> | eventually package authors will vendor their deps :P |
| 13:03:04 | <tomsmeding> | to save people some searching: https://github.blog/2022-05-19-math-support-in-markdown/ |
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| 13:04:48 | <dminuoso_> | That's microsofts move to ensure all the Agda and Coq people move to Github. |
| 13:04:58 | <dminuoso_> | Clever! |
| 13:05:25 | <dminuoso_> | But seriously, it's a nice feature |
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| 14:40:26 | <shapr> | hi mxs |
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| 14:41:56 | <mxs> | shapr: ^_^ hey |
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| 16:25:24 | <slack1256> | If I have a data structure with bang patterns that was _already_ forced/evaluated and I pass it to another function down the line that pattern matchs on it, will GHC force it again unnecessarely or it will be smart and do nothing? |
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| 16:26:59 | <geekosaur> | it will be smart |
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| 16:27:35 | <slack1256> | Thank god. |
| 16:27:50 | <slack1256> | well SPJ in this case. |
| 16:27:52 | <geekosaur> | an unevaluated value is a "thunk", entering it replaces the thunk with an evaluated result which when entered simply produces the result |
| 16:28:24 | <geekosaur> | this does not mean that something like deepseq does nothing, because deepseq can't know that there isn't an unevaluated thunk somewhere |
| 16:28:46 | <geekosaur> | which is why deepseq is considered a sledgehammer that should be avoided |
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| 16:29:28 | <slack1256> | So it will do nothing per node of the data structure but still will have to traverse it (as far a bang patterns specify). In the case of deepseq, all the way to the bottom. |
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| 16:29:52 | <slack1256> | s_bottom_base_ |
| 16:29:56 | <geekosaur> | right |
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| 16:30:17 | <slack1256> | Gotcha, that makes sense. Thanks geekosaur. |
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| 18:26:57 | <fciocan42> | Where can I find if I was selected for GSoC project? |
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| 18:47:12 | <sloorush> | fciocan42: the result is out on the gsoc portal |
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| 18:47:29 | <fciocan42> | just found them. Thanks |
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| 18:48:19 | <sm> | were you ? |
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| 18:50:31 | <Henson> | I'm trying to use proto-lens in a Stack build by following along with the instructions here (https://github.com/google/proto-lens#readme). Despite setting the build-type to Custom and adjusting the Setup.hs, "stack build" doesn't seem to be running anything to automatically convert the .proto files into .hs files. Does anybody have experience using proto-lens? |
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| 18:55:47 | <maerwald> | Henson: did you upload your project somewhere? |
| 18:57:47 | <Henson> | maerwald: no, it's a project for work. I haven't yet boiled it down to a minimum example that could be uploaded. I thought maybe there was something simple I'm missing to get stack to call the setup stuff described in the Setup.hs file for a Custom cabal build. |
| 18:58:44 | <maerwald> | do you use a package.yaml? |
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| 18:59:25 | <Henson> | maerwald: a stack.yaml, but most of the configuration seems to be done in a .cabal file |
| 18:59:45 | <maerwald> | so there is no 'package.yaml' in that folder? |
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| 19:00:47 | <Henson> | maerwald: no |
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| 19:01:43 | <Henson> | maerwald: I've figured out how to manually run the protobuf compiler, so if I can't figure out how to get automatic building working with "stack build", I'll just resort to manually building. |
| 19:03:57 | <sm> | presumably stack does run a custom Setup.hs ? Docs are not quite clear |
| 19:04:14 | <sm> | https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/GUIDE/#inner-workings-of-stack |
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| 19:05:20 | <Henson> | sm: yeah, it's not clear to me either on that one. the proto-lens package's instructions appear to be for either cabal or stack |
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| 19:51:21 | <maerwald> | how can I get lamdabot in my channel? |
| 19:51:39 | <geekosaur> | ask int-e |
| 19:52:11 | <maerwald> | int-e: ask |
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| 23:19:41 | <Hecate> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z28SDd9bXcE |
| 23:19:44 | <Hecate> | a good talk |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-05-20.