Logs on 2022-05-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:05:08	<maerwald[m]>	ERLANG?
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00:07:01	<hpc>	it's on topic here - it's basically just haskell, but if it was totally different :D
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01:43:46	<Guest\|33>	hello. i need help with an error
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01:58:40	<dons>	anyone seen this? Configuring library for ghc-source-gen-0.4.3.0..
01:58:40	<dons>	Error: cabal: Duplicate modules in library: GHC.Driver.Monad,
01:58:40	<dons>	GHC.Driver.Session, GHC.Hs.Type, GHC.Plugins, GHC.Tc.Types.Evidence,
01:58:40	<dons>	GHC.Types.Basic, GHC.Utils.Outputable
01:58:53	<dons>	trying to cabal install proto-lens-protoc
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01:59:58	<sclv>	the dup module check became overenthusiastic in one version of cabal
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02:00:07	<dons>	ah
02:00:21	<sclv>	it picks em up even when they are guarded by different flags
02:00:23	<dons>	yeah its guarded under an if impl() other-modules stanza, so i think the package spec is ok
02:00:29	<dons>	that'll be it
02:00:49	<dons>	i'll bump my cabal, running off of an older trunk
02:00:50	<sclv>	should be fixed in the next release, idk best practice in the meantime
02:01:05	<sclv>	oh right that’ll do it!
02:01:07	<dons>	'sok, i'm using dev version of cabal , but its a bit old. will report back shortly
02:01:33	<sclv>	iirc it was my regression (and fix) so fingers crossed
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02:24:22	<dons>	yep yep work~.
02:24:52	<dons>	works on cabal trunk
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02:38:35	<sclv>	w00t
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04:45:32	<dons>	here's another one i don't understand. Warning: haskell-scip.cabal:0:0: Unsupported cabal-version. See
04:45:35	<dons>	https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/4899.
04:45:38	<dons>	setup: Failed parsing "./haskell-scip.cabal".
04:45:40	<dons>	dons@linode1:~/repos/haskell-scip$ cabal --version
04:45:43	<dons>	cabal-install version 3.6.2.0
04:45:44	<dons>	literally, just cabal-version: 3.6
04:45:59	<dons>	is it telling me that something i'm using isn't valid cabal 3.6 syntax?
04:46:25	<dons>	"Warning: haskell-scip.cabal:0:0: Unsupported cabal-version 3.6. See"
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04:51:48	<sclv>	is this with the released cabal-install 3.6.2.0 or with something from the repo?
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04:55:11	<dons>	both, https://github.com/donsbot/if-proto-scip-hs/blob/main/if-proto-scip-hs.cabal is the .cabal
04:55:27	<dons>	cabal --version
04:55:28	<dons>	cabal-install version 3.6.2.0
04:55:28	<dons>	compiled using version 3.6.3.0 of the Cabal library
04:55:40	<dons>	its got various autogen and custom stanzas, i wonder if that's confusing something?
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04:58:53	<sclv>	hrm works with me on released cabal-install!
04:59:12	<dons>	huh!
05:00:04	<sclv>	gonna try head but i suspect same. could be a whitespace thing -- the version parser isn't the standard parser, because it has to parse the version specially before it decides "which" standard parser to use for the rest
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05:02:11	<sclv>	yeah works for me on head too
05:02:20	<dons>	just reinstalling my Cabals then. suspect some weird mix
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05:08:41	<dons>	ah ha. /home/dons/repos/if-proto-scip-hs/dist-newstyle/build/x86_64-linux/ghc-8.10.7/if-proto-scip-hs-0.1.0.0/setup/setup -V
05:08:44	<dons>	Cabal library version 3.2.1.0
05:08:58	<dons>	the setup is getting compiled with system cabal, not my $HOME/.ghcup cabal
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05:10:06	<sclv>	oh interesting -- i wonder if that's a bug in cabal
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05:10:24	<dons>	it could warn, i imagine, that the worker and wrapper cabal lib versions are different
05:10:53	<dons>	i wonder how common this is, these days. e.g this is a base machine with debian stock ghc, but then ghcup all the rest
05:11:14	<sclv>	i'd think that we should always try to use the same cabal in the programdb that we're running
05:11:38	<dons>	dons@linode1:~/repos/if-proto-scip-hs$ ghc-pkg list Cabal
05:11:38	<dons>	/home/dons/.ghcup/ghc/8.10.7/lib/ghc-8.10.7/package.conf.d Cabal-3.2.1.0
05:11:38	<dons>	dons@linode1:~/repos/if-proto-scip-hs$ cabal --version
05:11:38	<dons>	cabal-install version 3.6.2.0
05:11:56	<sclv>	oh or, wait is it compiled with system cabal-install, or is it using the Cabal library of that version, since its unconstrained
05:12:07	<sclv>	i.e. if you constrain the Cabal in the custom setup to a higher version does it work
05:12:15	<dons>	oh
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05:14:08	<dons>	no, i thought that would work. but it still wants to link the generated setup against the Cabal-3.2
05:14:25	<dons>	setup-depends: base, Cabal >= 3.6, proto-lens-setup
05:14:37	<dons>	would have thought that would force setup onto -V 3.6 ?
05:14:51	<dons>	oh it does!
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05:15:11	<dons>	if-proto-scip-hs-0.1.0.0/setup/setup -V
05:15:12	<dons>	Cabal library version 3.6.3.0
05:15:15	<dons>	that looks healthier
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05:17:13	<dons>	something screwy though. i gotta clean out all these weird cabal versions :}
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06:30:28	<int-e>	maerwald[m]: I'd need to know which channel that is
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09:28:15	<maerwald[m]>	int-e: #haskell-ghcup:libera.chat
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10:01:09	<[exa]>	is there something like isSpace that would NOT say that the unicode nonbreakable space is actually space? (https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/00a0/index.htm says isWhitespace=no, isSpaceChar=yes)
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10:04:33	<maerwald>	(`elem` "\t\n\r\f\v")?
10:04:57	<maerwald>	eh, "\t\n\r\f\v "
10:05:19	<[exa]>	nah, I need to match the unicode spaces but not unicode nonbreaking spaces
10:05:39	[exa]	converts this to a nice TODO
10:07:53	<maerwald>	I guess you just remove the `\|\| uc == 0xa0` from the isSpace definition
10:07:59	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/src/GHC-Unicode.html#isSpace
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11:15:51	<Digit>	hi, quick question, how much hd space will stack take? (asking because have limited space, scared to issue "curl -sSL https://get.haskellstack.org/ \| sh")
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11:17:39	<maerwald>	5GB or more
11:18:13	<Digit>	thanks. out of the question for me.
11:18:54	<maerwald>	what are you trying to do?
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11:23:12	<Digit>	i thought about following along DistroTube's build a haskell gtk app in an hour video, on a whim. no big loss to skip it.
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11:45:42	<sm>	I used to figure about 1G per GHC version
11:46:10	<sm>	maybe it was 1G for GHC and another 1G for libs
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11:51:33	<maerwald>	GHC itself is 2GB
11:52:20	<maerwald>	then you have pantry with another 1GB
11:53:26	<maerwald>	the reason 9.0.2 with stack is only 1.1GB is because the bindist is broken (missing profiling libs)
11:53:27	<int-e>	1GB works if you don't build documentation and profiling libs ;)
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11:55:25	<int-e>	regardless, ghc has grow noticably
11:56:31	<int-e>	https://paste.debian.net/1241572/ (this is without docs and profiling libs)
11:57:47	<int-e>	Hmm, I actually don't know what happened between 8.2 and 8.4
11:59:32	walt	is now known as ggVGc
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12:04:42	<int-e>	Oh, 8.4 and later includes a .o file for each library... in addition to the .so and a .a files.
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12:06:20	<geekosaur>	that seems like it might be worth noting to the folks in #ghc, since I don't think those .o-s are very useful to end users
12:06:46	<geekosaur>	and in any case should be extractable from the .a-s
12:07:09	<int-e>	Yeah... I do wonder how they would ever be used. A statically linked ghci would do that I guess... but who uses that?
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12:10:01	<maerwald>	alpine bindist
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12:11:11	<geekosaur>	that's the .a
12:11:20	<geekosaur>	the individual .o files shouldn't be useful
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12:12:32	<geekosaur>	and unloess something has gone really weird, should duplicate what's in the .a anyway
12:17:11	<ggVGc>	what do you guys think the chances are of successfully building and using this commit? https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/e3f0d880b7b74ed95059a8cddf3edf3e0d2f83c6
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12:17:31	<ggVGc>	I've been curious how it would be to work on a project with 90s Haskell
12:17:36	<ggVGc>	in terms of compilation speed
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12:18:11	<ggVGc>	Since I mainly use haskell for DSLs generating other code anyway, and basically don't use anything fancy since I'm too dumb
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12:24:57	<maerwald>	ggVGc: you need an appropriate bootstrap GHC version
12:25:23	<maerwald>	so it boils down to manage to install an ancient GHC bindist
12:25:50	<maerwald>	which is not easy... even the oldest docker images might not suffices (e.g. old debian repos can't be fetched anymore)
12:26:18	<ggVGc>	Yeah, I assume it's a fairly deep rabbit hole
12:26:27	<ggVGc>	what do you reckon is the older GHC reasonable to chase?
12:26:33	<ggVGc>	Maybe working backwards is the best way...
12:26:38	<ggVGc>	until I hit a wall
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12:28:01	<int-e>	geekosaur: ghci will prefer the .o file over the .a file (it'll be a bit faster because there are fewer symbols to resolve)
12:28:56	<maerwald>	ggVGc: that looks like GHC 2.02, which I can't find bindists for. Usually you need an older GHC version to bootstrap something. The only older one than 2.02 with bindists seems to be https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/0.29/
12:28:59	<maerwald>	good luck, LOL
12:29:14	<maerwald>	(that's literally the oldest bindist that exists)
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12:31:50	<ggVGc>	haha, thanks :) Will note this down until after I (hopefully) pass my single-variable analysis course on wednesday
12:31:59	<ggVGc>	decided to pursue a bachelors in physics at age 32...
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12:35:19	<maerwald>	sounds cool
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12:44:26	<ente>	nice, when's the time if not now
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13:22:15	<ggVGc>	yep, exactly
13:23:13	<ggVGc>	I've wanted to for about 10 years, and I started both a physics education, a maths one and a CS one at different points during that time, and always ended up dropping out almost instantly because of work pulling me the other way
13:23:32	<ggVGc>	realised I'll still have this desire in the back of my head for another 10 years if I don't just do it
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14:29:53	<Hemmo>	readPhone :: String -> String -> String -> Phone
14:29:53	<Hemmo>	readPhone pt cc pn = read pt::PhoneType
14:29:58	<Hemmo>	Oops
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14:30:08	<Hemmo>	Well anyway. I'm trying to make a function as so
14:30:30	<Hemmo>	I'm not sure how I can use the read function for each of them to check whether the parameter given is correct. Any help and pointers appreciated =)
14:31:12	<Hemmo>	I thought of guards, but not sure how I could use the read function in each of them and return an error if the type isnt right?
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14:31:52	<Hemmo>	Like, read pt::PhoneType /= PhoneType, return error. If no error, then move on to checking the next argument?
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14:32:27	<geekosaur>	read throws an exception on failure, so that'll be a pain. but there's readMaybe in Text.Read
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14:33:24	<geekosaur>	in any case you don't specify the type that way
14:33:45	<geekosaur>	hm, I guess that one will work as written, but it won't combine well
14:34:19	<geekosaur>	you may find Maybe's Monad instance helpful here
14:36:00	<Hemmo>	I actually want it to throw an exception though when it fails
14:36:27	<Hemmo>	The course I'm doing suggests using the read function
14:37:04	<Hemmo>	Like I thought of using the read to each of the strings and if one fails, it throws a custom exception. Like "Empty phone type" or "Wrong phone type"
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14:37:23	<geekosaur>	read doesn't let you specify
14:37:24	<Hemmo>	Error = exception I guess?
14:37:38	<geekosaur>	> read "blurfl"
14:37:40	<lambdabot>	*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
14:37:55	<Hemmo>	Hmm I see.
14:39:00	<Hemmo>	Ohh I may not need it.
14:39:09	<Hemmo>	I'll think about this a bit more =)
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15:03:51	<hololeap>	I keep using something like this in my projects and I'm thinking about making it into a package, but I wonder if there's something like it out there already:
15:04:28	<hololeap>	class Parsable t where parser :: (Stream s Identity Char) => Parsec s () (PartialParse t)
15:05:20	<hololeap>	data PartialParse t = PartialParse String t \| CompleteParse t
15:05:43	<geekosaur>	isn't that mroe or less what attoparsec does?
15:06:43	<hololeap>	yeah attoparsec does do partial parsing. actually, that isn't the part I'm focusing on. I just keep making a Parsable class, whether or not I implement PartialParse is beside the point
15:07:58	<hololeap>	I'm pretty sure they even have a class like this in Cabal
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15:11:59	<hololeap>	ToText/FromText ?
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15:16:25	<hololeap>	for instance, parsing "Cabal-3.4.1.0" and getting a CabalPackage and CabalVersion from it, but also being able to convert back to "Cabal-3.4.1.0". there has to be a name for this
15:16:27	<maerwald[m]>	hololeap: hsve you checked out streamly's parsing API?
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15:17:12	<hololeap>	no
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15:20:17	<hololeap>	now I just want to know what to call my pair of classes. ToText/FromText ? Parsable/Renderable ?
15:22:59	<hpc>	Unserializable?
15:23:04	<hpc>	:P
15:23:29	<geekosaur>	there are several reversable parser packages on hackage, you may get some ideas from those
15:23:37	<geekosaur>	*reversible
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15:32:20	<hololeap>	hm, Parsable/Printable seems good
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16:32:36	<gensyst>	Library for GTK, gtk vs. gi-gtk?
16:32:41	<gensyst>	maerwald, ^
16:33:06	<gensyst>	There seem to be two GTK "ecosystems". One is the normal one, the other is the gi- one
16:33:10	<gensyst>	what a PITA lol
16:33:32	<maerwald>	I didn't do it
16:33:41	<geekosaur>	I didn't know gtk2hs was even maintained any more
16:33:47	<gensyst>	I'm particularly interested in Chart library, and there is a Chart-gtk but there is no Chart-gi-gtk, so does that mean I should go with the normal non-gi "ecosystem"?
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16:34:12	<maerwald>	I prefer gtk over gi, but that's not a strong opinion
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16:51:46	<pie_>	How hard is it to implement a simple foldl?
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16:52:59	<Franciman>	pie_: it's easy
16:53:20	<pie_>	foldr was easy enough, I guess Ill stare at it a bit more I guess
16:53:37	<Franciman>	do you want answer?
16:53:42	<pie_>	not yet
16:54:00	<Franciman>	good because i don't know evil laugh
16:54:03	<pie_>	:P
16:54:11	<Franciman>	no it's not hard, i'm joking, just think a bit about it
16:54:32	<geekosaur>	you can get it from lambdabot, but seems to me like it should be reasonably obvious from seeing what it does
16:54:41	<geekosaur>	> foldl f z [a,b,c]
16:54:44	<lambdabot>	f (f (f z a) b) c
16:54:48	<pie_>	the problem is : you can build the foldr as you go splitting the cons and applying your function
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16:55:08	<pie_>	but thats not how foldl works
16:55:27	<EvanR>	be careful with operationally explaining the foldr and foldl implementations
16:55:34	<EvanR>	laziness plays tricks on you
16:55:43	<pie_>	oh im actually doing this in racket :V
16:55:51	<EvanR>	:facepalm:
16:55:55	<pie_>	but i guess im thining about it in both languages
16:55:58	<pie_>	*thinking
16:56:03	<EvanR>	well then foldl is basically a for loop
16:56:29	<Franciman>	is it tail recursive? ahah
16:56:35	<Franciman>	that's a relevant question for scheme
16:56:36	<Franciman>	i guess
16:56:44	<Franciman>	and it's also a small hint :(
16:56:46	<Franciman>	sory
16:57:10	<Philonous>	Is it strange or undesirable to mix and match csc2hs and c2hs in the same project?
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16:57:47	<geekosaur>	it doesn't matter
16:58:10	<geekosaur>	gtk2hs will use its c2hs regardless of what you use for any other foreign imports/exports
16:58:33	<c_wraith>	it might be a bit awkward in terms of requiring more context switching if you're working on those parts frequently, but it won't cause any problems
16:58:51	<Philonous>	hsc2hs, I meant
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16:58:56	<geekosaur>	well, ideally you never see the gtk2hsc2hs stuff
16:59:25	<Philonous>	I generall prefer c2hs, but c2hs has trouble dealing with nested structs and other edge cases that hsc2hs seems to take in strides
16:59:38	<Philonous>	OTOH c2hs makes function marshalling a breeze
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17:00:32	<Philonous>	Well, perhaps "breeze" is a bit of an overstatement, but at least it brings the pain down to bearable levels
17:01:13	<geekosaur>	gtk2hs's version of c2hs generally doesnt have those problems because it's been tuned to how gtk+ does it
17:01:14	<pie_>	ok I think I got it
17:01:55	<geekosaur>	which is pretty mechanical because glib is pretty mechanical if somewhat horrifying
17:03:07	<EvanR>	pie_, foldl = "straightforward accumulating loop" is the case in many languages, and is also why it goes off the rails in haskell, by default
17:03:19	<geekosaur>	again you never look at those parts, it's generally done by Setup.hs during package configuration and if anything goes wrong it usually means there's something wrong with your gtk+ install (usually a missing devel package)
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17:07:55	<pie_>	lol no nevermind i accidentally wrote foldr again xD
17:08:18	<Philonous>	Ah, I'm not dealing with gtk, I just want to bind to an existing C-library, and none of the solutions (hsc2hs, c2hs, inline-c) really seem to do the job by themselves
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17:08:39	<Philonous>	Hence the mixing and matching
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17:10:30	<gensyst>	maerwald, would love to hear more on your weak opinion
17:10:34	<gensyst>	on gtk > gi-gtk
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17:18:20	<EvanR>	pie_, btw what is the standard racket thing that does foldl, what's it called
17:18:37	<pie_>	I have no idea I'm just playing with my roommate's homework
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17:21:24	<monochrom>	With foldl f z xs, you can think of z as an accumulator parameter and try to do tail recursion.
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17:22:19	<hololeap>	what are your opinions of UndecidableSuperClasses? it could be "neat" to have Parsable be a superclass of Printable, and vice-versa
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17:22:47	<hololeap>	seems smelly though
17:24:24	<hpc>	at that point they might as well be one class
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17:25:33	<EvanR>	ok it seems to be called... foldl
17:26:41	<EvanR>	yes isn't that set theory 101, A < B, B < A => A = B
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17:27:50	<EvanR>	A ⊆ B, B ⊆ A => A = B
17:29:26	<hpc>	EvanR: now try saying the same thing about mutually imported modules and see what people here say :D
17:29:49	<EvanR>	to not do it? xD
17:30:33	<hpc>	if only
17:33:55	<monochrom>	Oh people do say "so merge into the same module".
17:36:20	<hololeap>	there's also hs-boot files
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17:37:54	<hpc>	hs-boot is just a fancy way of saying "third module"
17:38:03	<c_wraith>	merging them is better than using hs-boot files. but it would be nice if GHC just supported mutually recursive modules
17:39:08	<hpc>	nah, i like knowing that my modules are actually independent of each other
17:39:18	<hpc>	imagine allowing mutually recursive package dependencies
17:39:30	<hololeap>	whoohoo
17:39:51	<hpc>	nooooooooo, that way lies madness
17:40:21	<hololeap>	just make a single hackage mono-package mono-module
17:40:37	<hololeap>	namespaces be damned
17:40:53	<hpc>	also the proper rebuttal would have been "imagine allowing mutually recursive function definitions" :P
17:41:22	<geekosaur>	isn't there one in acme-something?
17:41:30	<raehik>	Question about runtime impact of typeclasses. If I use some concrete typeclass method in a function, there's no dictionary passing/other overhead, right? it just inserts the definition
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17:41:51	<c_wraith>	raehik: usually.
17:42:16	<geekosaur>	most of the time it should be resolved, unless it's a recursively polymorphic usage
17:42:18	<hololeap>	really, namespacing is the main reason why you would want mutually dependent modules
17:42:23	<raehik>	c_wraith: fab, I imagine there's weird cases but this is all monomorphic boring
17:42:43	<raehik>	ty
17:42:44	<pie_>	these arent the same when defining foldl but they kind of look the same to me:
17:42:44	<pie_>	(f (foldl f initial tail) head)
17:42:44	<pie_>	(foldl f (f head initial) tail)
17:43:06	<pie_>	can anyone help me make sense of this?
17:43:18	<EvanR>	they look different
17:43:51	<pie_>	the first one looks like foldl proper, im not sure what the second one is doing
17:44:05	<c_wraith>	raehik: there are some cases involving multiple modules and typeclass-polymorphic functions that aren't actually part of the class.
17:44:06	<EvanR>	oh now I don't understand the context
17:44:07	<pie_>	Im not even 100% sure at this point how I came up with it
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17:44:42	<pie_>	the signature for this foldl is: (foldl2 f initial lst)
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17:45:12	<raehik>	c_wraith: OK. This usage is mostly to consolidate definitions for something only used concretely (but I want to switch between X definitions)
17:45:16	<c_wraith>	raehik: whether those get specialized at compile time depends on whether they're online (or have specialize pragmas matching your type already)
17:45:24	<c_wraith>	err. *inline
17:45:50	<monochrom>	This is where infix notation with explicit parenthesizing is actually helpful, therefore Racket syntax is being unhelpful.
17:46:31	<maerwald>	gensyst: I dunno, I remember the API being vastly different in a couple of places
17:46:57	<maerwald>	gtk felt better (maybe because it was less of a direct translation?)
17:47:01	<monochrom>	You can use either an induction proof or expansion by hand to find out whether you're achieving "a + (b + (c + z))" or "((z + a) + b) + c"
17:48:36	<pie_>	ok
17:49:05	<monochrom>	This is why I don't teach foldr and foldl in isolation, or require students to invent them.
17:49:36	<pie_>	oh i see
17:49:54	<pie_>	since the (f ...) is in the position of initial, i need to expand the instances of initial
17:50:10	<monochrom>	I teach summing/multiplying a list two ways, and map, and reverse. Then their egregious boilerplate screams at you, and then foldr and foldl are obvious.
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17:53:17	<monochrom>	And these days I don't even emphasize foldl or foldr. I emphasize Monoid and Foldable.
17:54:26	<pie_>	I think there's 4 variants here; one gets you a + (b + (c + d))), the other gets that left-assoc; the other two variants might be the same thing reversed
17:54:57	<pie_>	d + (...)
17:55:13	<pie_>	but I dont "see" it yet
17:55:49	<EvanR>	what type are you folding over, finite list?
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17:55:59	<pie_>	yeah
17:56:00	<c_wraith>	those are very difficult to write for lists, because [] is a singly-linked list
17:56:02	<monochrom>	finite lists in Racket.
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17:57:46	<pie_>	this is the mess Im currently looking at https://bpa.st/YI2A
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17:58:24	<pie_>	sorry for the mess of human languages heh, I should fix that
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17:58:59	<monochrom>	(f initial fej)
18:00:00	<monochrom>	Also the pattern for the empty list is () not (list)
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18:00:31	<monochrom>	or maybe '()
18:01:12	<pie_>	yeah I figured theres something more appropriate for nil but I didnt bother checking (re: playing with my roommate's homework)
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18:01:33	<pie_>	'() appears to work
18:01:52	<monochrom>	If your roommate thought that the empty list was written (list), they should drop the course now.
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18:02:10	<pie_>	heh
18:02:24	<EvanR>	damn
18:02:37	<EvanR>	please tell us this course involves haskell in some form
18:03:05	<pie_>	I dare fathom the lecturer used (list)
18:03:21	<pie_>	no Im pretty sure it was mostly java
18:03:31	<EvanR>	(list) is like... a function call right xD
18:04:23	<pie_>	probably
18:05:03	<monochrom>	OK I now see how (list) can work. But it's an XY problem.
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18:11:37	<pie_>	fixed the names https://bpa.st/VXMA
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18:12:53	<monochrom>	With foldr you don't think in terms of "acc".
18:13:29	<pie_>	yeah that was a WIP accident
18:13:37	<monochrom>	Why in foldl you have (f h initial) not (f initial h)?
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18:14:30	<pie_>	No good reason, I wasnt sure I had the recursion structure right in the first place.
18:14:40	<pie_>	so yes that needs to be fixed
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18:25:52	<pie_>	oh
18:26:04	pie_	squints
18:26:19	<pie_>	I think part of the reason some of this stuff is working is because im testing with f = cons
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18:27:12	<monochrom>	A test case cannot be more correct than the human's expected answer.
18:28:01	<monochrom>	foldl cons z [a,b,c] = (cons (cons (cons z a) b) c) is the correct answer.
18:28:17	<monochrom>	If you see '(a b c z) then it's wrong.
18:29:01	<monochrom>	(cons (cons (cons z a) b) c) is likely printed as (((z . a) . b) . c) in Racket.
18:29:07	<pie_>	I dont, I was looking at stuff like ((((((() . 1) . 2) . 3) . 4) . 5) . 6)
18:29:16	<monochrom>	OK good.
18:29:48	<monochrom>	That's the correct answer for foldl cons '() '(1 2 3 4 5 6)
18:29:58	<pie_>	well, Im not sure which variant im running right now
18:29:59	<pie_>	aha
18:30:32	<EvanR>	that's causing my haskell brain to explode
18:30:47	<monochrom>	This is why I don't have a Haskell brain.
18:31:05	<pie_>	at least your brain can into programming
18:31:20	<pie_>	my roommate is better than me but he is lazy
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18:31:55	<monochrom>	Your roommate should switch to Haskell.
18:32:26	<pie_>	If he finishes his exams I intend to nag him about it
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18:41:07	<pie_>	OH
18:41:08	<pie_>	OHű
18:41:11	<pie_>	the joke
18:41:12	<pie_>	my head
18:42:00	<monochrom>	:)
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18:48:00	<pie_>	sidenote, so what if I dont want foldl with cons to reverse my list?
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18:48:36	<pie_>	which is really what I originally wanted to solve
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18:49:07	<monochrom>	((((((() . 1) . 2) . 3) . 4) . 5) . 6) isn't a reversal. The order is still 1,2,3,4,5,6.
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18:50:14	<pie_>	well, its ((((((() . 6) . 5) . 4) . 3) . 2) . 1)
18:50:26	<pie_>	but youre probably still saying the right thing
18:50:30	<monochrom>	(f initial head).
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18:52:28	<pie_>	uh the only one of my four folds that seems to be right-ish doesnt do that. well, hold on.
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18:53:08	<monochrom>	There is only one foldr and only one foldl. The other two are generally ignored.
18:53:21	<gensyst>	maerwald, thanks for pointing me towards gtk with Haskell. This is so cool. Desktop apps in Haskell!
18:54:12	<gensyst>	maerwald, and for custom data visualizations GTK really is a no-brainer. You get to create visualizations with what custom controls you want. And for this, why bother learning something extra like Mathematica? Why not just use a standard cross-platform GTK? Skills that also apply in other fields!
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18:54:23	<maerwald>	gensyst: I dunno... I've switched mostly to terminal these days. I used to be a big gtk fan 10 years ago
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18:54:50	<maerwald>	if browser would run (properly) in terminal, there'd be nothing left
18:55:13	<hpc>	i am still waiting for browsers to run properly in desktop environments
18:55:16	<arjun>	maerwald, can it run crysis tho
18:55:19	<EvanR>	no discussion of gtk haskell can be complete without obligatory reference to Manatee and their integrated haskell gtk "environment"
18:55:20	<gensyst>	lol
18:56:32	<monochrom>	I wonder if you accept: Run GUI browser through VNC or any remote desktop solution, but the receiving end pumps it through mplayer's asciiart driver.
18:56:48	<maerwald>	hpc: :D
18:57:15	<maerwald>	I mean... just an opengl app would do too. GUIs for games are plenty
18:57:23	<maerwald>	like myGUI
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18:59:12	<hololeap>	anyone know how to make haddock render this (highlighted in red) so that it isn't just one long line, but has breaks like in the definition just above it? https://pasteboard.co/27ajNRCuiwHz.png
19:00:16	<EvanR>	gui toolkits give you vector graphics, people insist on using opengl to make a gui instead, opengl (still) can't do vector graphics
19:00:47	<EvanR>	why is this world mad
19:01:16	<monochrom>	too much lead in the air from burning leaded gasoline
19:01:32	<EvanR>	veritasium's at it again
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19:01:41	<arjun>	it all went downhill after Harambe tbh
19:01:57	<hololeap>	I would posit that madness is the default state and we should be grateful for any sanity left
19:02:11	<EvanR>	that is so dark
19:02:34	<arjun>	EvanR, Electricty does not flow though wires : D
19:02:49	EvanR	throws the computer through the wall
19:02:59	<shapr>	argh
19:03:05	<arjun>	also, there is a hole at the bottom of Mathematics
19:03:11	<EvanR>	aaaaaaaaa stop it
19:03:25	<arjun>	ANALOG COMPUTERS
19:03:43	<EvanR>	I waited months for that follow up to get AI!
19:04:03	<arjun>	instead it was a chip company ad
19:04:12	<hololeap>	basically my attitude haha: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAntiNihilist
19:05:28	<maerwald>	EvanR: cairo has OpenGL as backend, no?
19:05:38	<EvanR>	not really
19:05:48	<maerwald>	well, yes
19:05:58	<maerwald>	it says so on the website
19:06:16	<EvanR>	yeah been reading that "fact" for a while
19:06:38	<EvanR>	the closest thing I found to that is google's acquired tech "skia"
19:07:51	<pie_>	monochrom: this is what im looking at right now jdoodle.com/ia/r8g
19:07:59	<pie_>	* https://www.jdoodle.com/ia/r8g
19:08:28	<monochrom>	But why is it a 4pt font...
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19:12:01	<EvanR>	gensyst, you can also use these browser-in-a-can frontends for visuals
19:12:09	<EvanR>	electron, something or other
19:12:39	<EvanR>	ghcjs or websocket to a haskell core program
19:12:59	<hololeap>	why isn't there a brick-like interface for gui-building yet
19:13:39	<shapr>	I want that too now that you mention it
19:14:31	<hololeap>	I have done very little with gui stuff, so the answer doesn't come strictly from laziness.
19:14:35	<hololeap>	*question
19:14:56	<EvanR>	strictly from laziness?
19:15:14	<hololeap>	lol
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19:16:20	<sm>	brick-like ? aren't most of the existing gui frameworks similar ?
19:16:44	<sm>	you compose widgets, provide event handlers, and let it run ?
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19:17:28	<geekosaur>	yeh, I thought brick was modeled around GUIs
19:18:31	<hololeap>	can you give me another example of this, sm? in my experience looking through the limited GUI frameworks available to haskell-space, it seems to be mostly wrappers around imperative styles
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19:20:34	<hololeap>	also, brick is pretty much one step away from going full FRP in terms of "callbacks"
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19:21:13	<geekosaur>	FRP's realy the only other option. frameworks exist but are less common, in part because everyone seems to have their own idea of what FRP is
19:23:11	<hololeap>	I have seen "qt-declarative" somewhere, and I wonder if it could be used to build a declarative-style gui framework for haskell
19:23:47	<EvanR>	continuous time denotational programming xD
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19:26:13	<geekosaur>	I think that was https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hsqml ? which isn't maintained
19:27:24	<sm>	hololeap: I've never used a haskell GUI framework but don't they all basically require you to declare a scene built up of widgets ?
19:28:25	<monochrom>	pie_: On my school computer, (foldl cons '() '(1 2 3)) = (((() . 1) . 2) . 3). I don't know wtf jdoodle.com is doing, but adding debugging printfs and/or avoiding the name "foldl" reveals that every time it calls foldl it is not always your foldl.
19:28:26	<hololeap>	I haven't used any either, just looked at the docs for one or two, and decided it was basically any other language inside of a 'do' block
19:28:34	<sm>	and then (except for the FRP ones) define imperative event handlers
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19:29:39	<pie_>	monochrom: ugh wow
19:29:53	<pie_>	well not as if i had any idea how racket scoping really works
19:30:02	<monochrom>	No no no.
19:30:10	<monochrom>	jdoodle is wrong.
19:30:18	<monochrom>	Nothing to do with Racket.
19:30:26	<monochrom>	Racket on my school computer gives no surprise.
19:30:26	<pie_>	i renamed foldr to foldr3 and now its doing better
19:30:50	<pie_>	and foldl to foldl3
19:30:50	<monochrom>	Delete jdoodle from your mind. It is broken.
19:31:38	<monochrom>	Either that, or add to your brain: Both jdoodle and stackoverflow are wrong.
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19:32:08	<pie_>	is stackoverflow wrong now or just in general? :P
19:32:23	<geekosaur>	in general
19:32:32	<pie_>	ok but overall this is much more consistent wow
19:32:32	<geekosaur>	it's kinda a lousy source of knowledge
19:32:34	<monochrom>	OK I only have one anecdote from a year ago.
19:32:53	<pie_>	so now my stuff _does_ show that the "other" approach for each of them is like a reverse, or something
19:32:57	<monochrom>	err two years, but who's counting
19:33:17	<pie_>	yeah i was surprised last summer was a year ago
19:33:20	<pie_>	whoda thunk
19:33:25	<EvanR>	one does not simply forget something named jdoodle
19:33:34	<monochrom>	We should be grateful that stackoverflow and jdoodle are broken.
19:33:39	<hpc>	for a while now, the best way to use stackoverflow has been to find a sufficiently related question to your problem, scroll through the solutions, and mine them for further google keywords
19:33:40	<geekosaur>	the problem I have with SO is the people who know more are disincentivized from responding because they have to balance responses with moderation work that's usually thankless and often a bit argumentative
19:33:41	<hololeap>	I tried to make a strange gui framework using reflex and gloss, with recursive datatypes. I nearly broke my brain working on that haha.
19:33:42	<pie_>	brb last minute pizza run
19:33:57	<monochrom>	Because how else can we distinguish students who worked from students who googled.
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19:34:10	<geekosaur>	so you get responsesfrom a few oldtimers who work well with its incentive structure and a bunch of newbies
19:34:11	<hpc>	code snippets are often subtly wrong, or explanations are lacking in critical details
19:34:14	<pie_>	hololeap: meanwhile i want to write GUIs and I cant even fold proeprly :P
19:34:34	<pie_>	hololeap: thats always fun
19:34:47	<hololeap>	pie_ if you really grok fold you'll be halfway to understanding most things
19:35:01	<hololeap>	because fold is just another form of composability
19:35:35	<hololeap>	really, it's the essence of composability
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19:37:57	<hololeap>	just wait... someday you will understand how to fold endomorphisms on Categories :p
19:38:46	<hololeap>	(the joke is because it's a simple concept but I used big words)
19:38:50	<darkling>	And after that, it's a small step to folding space from Ix...
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19:40:09	<hololeap>	and someday... time itself...
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19:40:46	<hololeap>	maybe life is just a right fold along the spine of the future
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19:41:09	<darkling>	It's the lazy evaluation that gets you, though.
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19:42:25	<hololeap>	yeah, I get too lazy and the thunks overwhelm my memory, so I learned to be more eager
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19:43:26	<hololeap>	XD
19:44:58	<EvanR>	integral is a continuous fold
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19:57:49	<pie_>	xD <darkling> And after that, it's a small step to folding space from Ix...
19:58:48	<pie_>	the place the bene gesserit dare not look <darkling> It's the lazy evaluation that gets you, though.
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19:59:54	<hololeap>	once you understand that composition is a monoid, monads are monoids, and do notation is just syntatctic sugar for composing monads (monoids), you see that any haskell program is just one big fold
20:00:33	<EvanR>	exactly
20:00:50	<pie_>	i was just sitting on the toilet and i was like
20:00:57	<pie_>	fold exchanges structure for computation
20:01:05	<pie_>	(well, if thats what f does)
20:01:07	<EvanR>	and commutative monoids are just monoids in a category of monoids, or something
20:01:18	<pie_>	because i was looking at the wiki page
20:01:22	<pie_>	well...tbf it basically said that
20:02:36	<hololeap>	I think the "hardest" thing about category theory is how self-recursive it is
20:02:50	<hololeap>	everything is everything
20:02:53	<EvanR>	it's the pile of jargon
20:03:03	<hololeap>	it gets all holistic
20:03:20	<hololeap>	holographic even
20:03:22	<EvanR>	for each theorem there is like 1000 definitions
20:04:02	<EvanR>	and most showcasing of category theorem is wholely concerned with telling what something is
20:04:08	<hololeap>	yeah I can't look at ncatlab without having a tiny aneurysm
20:04:08	<EvanR>	telling you*
20:04:18	<pie_>	https://wiki.haskell.org/Fold "One can view a right fold as replacing the nil at the end of the list with a specific value, and each cons with a specific other function. "
20:04:31	<EvanR>	yeah foldr is doing constructor replacement
20:04:37	<EvanR>	foldl is an accumulating loop
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20:05:12	<monochrom>	I am generally weary of wordy descriptions.
20:05:31	<maerwald>	EvanR: you mean foldr'?
20:05:35	<maerwald>	err, foldl'
20:05:45	<EvanR>	the prime just makes it eager
20:05:57	<monochrom>	An imprecise wording can make you feel good about yourself but it has too many interpretations and you're bound to think of an unintended one.
20:06:04	<maerwald>	then I have no idea what you mean with "accumulating"
20:06:19	<maerwald>	if you mean memory, then yeah
20:06:35	<pie_>	EvanR: ok fine i give up for 5 minutes
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20:06:38	<monochrom>	A precise description is just too damn long, you won't actually read it, you will read maybe 5% of it and then manufacture an imprecise version, now goto the above.
20:06:39	<EvanR>	language is a game, this is how we lose
20:07:16	<hololeap>	pie_, really jump over to understanding foldMap, then you will see what we are talking about with all this Monoid stuff
20:07:36	<pie_>	maybe this week is not the best week for that
20:07:38	<pie_>	or the next two
20:07:48	<monochrom>	Whereas a symbolic example can do wonder. foldr (%) z (a : (b : (c : []))) = a % (b % (c % z)). Short and precise and clear.
20:07:58	<hololeap>	I _never_ define foldr for a Foldable instance, always foldMap. it is _so_ much more intuitive
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20:08:21	<monochrom>	I now teach map with "for example map f [a, b, c] = [f a, f b, f c]"
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20:08:47	<monochrom>	A formula is worth a thousand pictures, therefore a million words.
20:09:50	<hololeap>	a monoid is something we generally already understand. combine two things. there's a thing that does nothing when you combine it with other things.
20:10:38	<hololeap>	but people don't like Greek apparently
20:10:40	<monochrom>	If you know of associative binary operators and identity elements, then you already know monoids. THE END.
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20:12:19	<pie_>	ok cool i know monoids
20:12:21	<pie_>	sort of
20:12:33	<pie_>	now what
20:12:47	<monochrom>	Now you can take a look at Foldable? :)
20:12:51	<EvanR>	now checkout the category theory version of monoids
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20:13:17	<sm>	well, that was not easy, but.. https://haskell-links.org now also works without javascript
20:14:13	<monochrom>	http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2021-Summer/05-haskell-fold.html is how I teach foldr, foldl, Foldable.
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20:17:09	<EvanR>	honestly I just pull up the defining equations on lambdabot and that explains it (if you can read haskell)
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20:43:34	<hpc>	sm: nice
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20:44:25	<hpc>	sm: my inner jerk wants to point out you can do css queries on the value of a text input and use that for no-js realtime search :D
20:45:58	<sm>	thanks! :) good to know
20:46:48	<sm>	that's an interesting no-js alternative for client-side search, but wouldn't work for no-css browsers though
20:47:07	<sm>	(someone asked to make this work in links)
20:47:22	<hpc>	makes sense
20:48:46	<hpc>	yeah, that method is a terrible idea anyway
20:49:09	sm	files it away for future wizardry
20:49:10	<hpc>	iirc the way you would have to do it involves a rule for every partial match
20:49:42	<hpc>	because you can do dom_thing =~ pattern but not string =~ dom_thing
20:49:59	sm	slides that file into the fire
20:50:52	<hpc>	maybe if you embedded a turing machine in css first...
20:51:05	<geekosaur>	ugh
20:51:21	<geekosaur>	wouldn't be surprised if it's possible but it's probably even uglier
20:51:54	<geekosaur>	(I mean, there's a turing machine in plain vi somewhere)
20:52:34	<hpc>	that wouldn't be surprising, regex + iteration usually equals turing machine
20:53:49	<geekosaur>	notsure it even uses regex
20:54:00	<geekosaur>	just the ability to execute commands in registers
20:54:26	<geekosaur>	(@x executes register x)
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