Logs on 2022-05-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:04:26 | <hololeap> | since Monoid was split into Semigroup/Monoid, I don't see why the same shouldn't be done for Apply/Applicative |
| 01:06:06 | <hololeap> | personally, I don't find Pointed to be that important or useful |
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| 01:07:07 | <hololeap> | I also am curious if an ApplyDo extension would be possible |
| 01:10:40 | <hololeap> | brb |
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| 01:13:31 | <jackdk> | `Pointed` doesn't seem that useful, since I'm not aware of any good laws for it. You sometimes see `Applicative` play that role, e.g. `(==>)` in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dependent-sum |
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| 01:19:11 | <Bulby[m]> | can I get a generic instance from a GADT without pain |
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| 02:28:26 | <energizer> | in some languages you can do things like configuration settings for computations in a context. like in python you can probably set the rounding mode with a context manager `with` |
| 02:28:42 | <energizer> | what's the haskelly version of that? |
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| 02:33:28 | <jackdk> | energizer: Passing arguments to functions. When doing this by hand becomes too tiresome, automating some of it by using a type like `newtype Reader r a = Reader (r -> a)` and giving it `Functor`/`Applicative`/`Monad` instances that thread the `r` for us. (`runReader :: Reader r a -> r -> a` is how you pass in the `r` for the whole computation. |
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| 02:34:30 | <jackdk> | The other use of `with` I remember from my Python days is things like `with open(..) as f:`, and we tend to use higher-order functions for that: `withFoo :: some -> args -> (foo -> x) -> x` or whatever |
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| 02:36:36 | <energizer> | ok |
| 02:41:42 | <jackdk> | > :t withFile -- energizer : concrete example --v |
| 02:41:44 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’ |
| 02:41:56 | <jackdk> | ah, lambdabot doesn't do :t |
| 02:42:15 | <jackdk> | anyway, energizer: `withFile :: FilePath -> IOMode -> (Handle -> IO r) -> IO r` is a concrete example |
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| 02:53:19 | <EvanR> | specifically the rounding mode might be tough |
| 02:53:48 | <EvanR> | is that per-OS-thread or |
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| 02:56:34 | <energizer> | it's a "context variable" in python, which is a thread or more generally "task" (in async land) |
| 02:57:55 | <energizer> | i'm guessing python inherits this from some 1980s fortran interpretation of ieee 754 |
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| 02:59:20 | <energizer> | The context is defined by the following parameters: precisionhttp://speleotrove.com/decimal/damodel.html rounding flags and trap-enablers |
| 02:59:42 | <energizer> | oops. http://speleotrove.com/decimal/damodel.html The context is defined by the following parameters: precision, rounding, flags, and trap-enablers |
| 02:59:56 | <dolio> | Doing things that way isn't going to be very nicely behaved. |
| 03:00:18 | <dolio> | They're stateful flags that affect results of supposedly pure functions. |
| 03:02:13 | <dolio> | Probably fine if you only set them once, but if you're switching them around frequently, then that could lead to problems. |
| 03:02:55 | <energizer> | roundTo' takes the rounding mode as an argument |
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| 03:14:31 | <Axman6> | quick uniz question, is there an easy way to find a file which contains two strings anywhere within them? |
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| 03:16:07 | <Axman6> | unix even |
| 03:16:20 | <jackdk> | grep -l for each pattern, sort and combine file lists with comm? |
| 03:16:31 | <jackdk> | dunno about unizzzzzz, only GNU/Linux |
| 03:19:09 | <dragestil> | why is the dominant license of haskell packages bsd3? |
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| 03:19:58 | <dragestil> | when i tried some older versions of `cabal init` the default choice was also bsd3, why? |
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| 03:22:44 | <sclv> | bsd3 is the standard "pretty nonrestrictive license that indemnifies the producer of the library" |
| 03:23:15 | <sclv> | its a very common choice for when people want to release open source software that doesn't make commercial use and modification difficult. |
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| 03:24:04 | <dragestil> | i see |
| 03:24:10 | <sclv> | and its "more standard" than similar licenses than mit because largely of historical accident, but also arguably because of ghc's roots in academia |
| 03:24:23 | <sclv> | s/than mit/like mit/ |
| 03:25:46 | <dragestil> | well i'm glad newer cabal-install does not default to it but lets people put their own in .cabal file |
| 03:25:47 | <sclv> | in my experience there's almost always no particularly good reason that anyone would want to pick anything except either a gpl-family license (with strong free software/copyleft protection) or bsd. |
| 03:26:31 | <sclv> | certain versions of cabal-install only "defaulted" because cabal init was made noninteractive by default, which turned out to be a very bad UI choice and was reverted |
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| 03:26:58 | <sclv> | the people who made that choice insisted it was "easier" and it was impossible to convince them that most users wanted to consciously pick at least a few things carefully |
| 03:27:04 | stoned | is now known as Hash |
| 03:27:14 | <sclv> | so a cabal version was released that had noninteractive init |
| 03:27:17 | <dragestil> | oh I thought only interactive cabal init defaults to bsd |
| 03:27:26 | <sclv> | and enough people yelled that it was changed |
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| 03:28:36 | <sclv> | oh fair enough. noninteractive just leaves it blank |
| 03:29:00 | <sclv> | and now it does have NONE as the "recommeneded" option instead of bsd. |
| 03:29:11 | <sclv> | i suppose i mixed up to UI issues |
| 03:29:15 | <sclv> | two UI issues |
| 03:29:19 | <dragestil> | ok |
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| 03:29:45 | <sclv> | i don't remember a discussion over having a preferred license choice in cabal, maybe there's one somewhere in the tickets.. |
| 03:30:20 | <jackdk> | sclv: I see a bit of dual-licensed BSD-3-Clause and Apache-2.0 so people can have the patent protection if they want |
| 03:30:44 | <dragestil> | would be interesting if there were such discussions |
| 03:33:33 | <jackdk> | yes, especially with the new concerns about your creative output getting slurped up into some ML algo's training set |
| 03:33:53 | <hololeap> | I always default to bsd-2, but that's mostly because I really don't understand all the legal stuff, and bsd-2 was presented as the most free and unrestricted |
| 03:34:04 | <sclv> | oleg made the change, but looks like it was just a merge, not a pr (we don't do merges without prs anymore) so not much discussion https://github.com/haskell/cabal/commit/2fa83023606e89f933bfe0d8779ea805f44b08eb |
| 03:34:53 | <sclv> | i think it was part of a general cleanup when we moved to use the official SPDX license format and list, while the old behavior was done sort of unthinkingly at the dawn of cabal |
| 03:35:16 | <dragestil> | jackdk: i thought ms wouldn't care about the license of the training set if you are talking about copilot |
| 03:35:36 | <dragestil> | I always default to agpl3+ because it offers best protection for the community |
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| 06:10:57 | <markasoftware> | Say I'm memoizing a function using a Map. Certain arguments to the function are illegal and will cause it to `error`, but such illegal arguments won't be provided during normal operation. |
| 06:12:32 | <markasoftware> | actually let's say not a Map, just a list, using say `memoizeResults = map (myFn) [1..]`, then access results by doing `memoizeResults !! n` |
| 06:12:57 | <markasoftware> | am I guaranteed that Haskell won't "optimize" my code and try to randomly evaluate certain elements of the list? |
| 06:13:14 | <markasoftware> | ie, is laziness guaranteed |
| 06:14:20 | <markasoftware> | but I can imagine that for example if my code reads a few contiguous elements, Haskell might think it can speed things up by preloading a few more elements, but that might read an element which causes an `error` |
| 06:16:51 | <opqdonut> | yeah, you can rely on that |
| 06:17:24 | <opqdonut> | (even if Haskell would do eager evaluation beforehand, it would not propagate the error until you try to "evaluate" the value, to ensure lazy _semantics_) |
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| 06:50:07 | <EvanR> | markasoftware, haskell can only "evaluate ahead of time on your behalf" if it can determine it won't change non-strict semantics. I.e. crashing or freezing on something you don't need to evaluate would be illegal |
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| 06:51:16 | <EvanR> | what described does happen in clojure... you just want to take the first element of a stream, but it evaluates like 16 elements anyway "for speed" |
| 06:51:37 | <EvanR> | which could cause an unexpected exception |
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| 08:06:22 | <tomsmeding> | sm: https://github.com/tomsmeding/ircbrowse/commit/47653df8493fd0a49a42bc775dda6d5dc92b4be1 |
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| 08:29:21 | <dminuoso_> | Can you depend on multiple specific components of another package? |
| 08:29:58 | <merijn> | Yes, if you don't plan to rely on hackage anytime soon :p |
| 08:30:14 | <dminuoso_> | Gah, I see. |
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| 08:35:31 | <merijn> | hackage doesn't support exposing more than one library externally atm |
| 08:35:51 | <merijn> | afaik cabal does support depending on foo:lib:internal foo:lib:other |
| 08:35:59 | <merijn> | (exact syntax I'm unsure about) |
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| 08:46:09 | <maerwald> | no one is sure about cabal syntax |
| 08:47:43 | <merijn> | maerwald: I'm sure having "foo:lib:internal" be a string in YAML or toml would solve this issue and no one would have to know the syntax... >.> |
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| 09:08:44 | <maerwald> | merijn: nah, better come up with a custom underdocumented format for which there exists only one parser implementation :p |
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| 09:16:58 | <dminuoso_> | Even the cabal-install component parser code is somewhat spaghetti and not well documented. |
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| 11:10:14 | <anon15041149> | I'm having some trouble getting stack to work, this is the error I am getting https://paste.tomsmeding.com/v70TeJQT I checked under stack.yaml and under packages it has packages: - /Users/sr/.cabal |
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| 11:10:58 | <anon15041149> | previously it was packages: - /Users/sr/ I'm not sure if it makes difference, I tried running it both times |
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| 11:17:39 | <jackdk> | I think `packages: ` is the list of packages in your project, not some system repository. I wouldn't expect to see it pointed at `$HOME` or `$HOME/.cabal`, but rather something more like `.` |
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| 11:21:09 | <anon15041149> | I changed it to . but I get this https://paste.tomsmeding.com/f55JSWep |
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| 11:56:08 | <Philonous> | A dependency (singletons) in one of my packages was split into multiple packages, is there a way to have a single .cabal file that handles both situations? e.g. »singletons < 3.0 || (singletons > 3.0 + singletons-th + singletons-base)« ? |
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| 11:56:35 | <geekosaur> | use a flag |
| 11:56:36 | <Philonous> | (singletons >= 3.0, I meant) |
| 11:56:53 | <merijn> | Philonous: Use an automatic flag |
| 11:57:01 | <merijn> | I think I even have a simple-ish example |
| 11:57:16 | <geekosaur> | I was looking for one from the split-base days |
| 11:57:32 | <merijn> | Philonous: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/plotting/plotting.cabal |
| 11:57:42 | <Philonous> | Oh, that would be helpful. I know how to use flags, but ideally the flag would automatically bet set depending on the stackage LTS |
| 11:57:45 | <Philonous> | Thanks |
| 11:57:52 | <merijn> | Philonous: Basically, cabal will automatically toggle flags if it is unable to find a build plan |
| 11:58:27 | <Philonous> | Oh? That's great! |
| 11:58:28 | <merijn> | Philonous: stackage goes out of it's way to encourage people to use flags other than intended, breaking their initial use case (this), so, uh...SOL |
| 11:58:48 | <dminuoso_> | merijn: what exact part of this is the "automatic flag" part? |
| 11:59:34 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: "manual: False" (which should be the default, but some old cabal versions had a bug where flags weren't automatic by default as they're supposed to) |
| 12:00:13 | <dminuoso_> | Ah cool, good to know. |
| 12:00:24 | <dminuoso_> | How will this fail if cairo is unavailable? |
| 12:00:37 | <dminuoso_> | With illegible constraint solver messages as usual? |
| 12:00:48 | <quitebk> | @help |
| 12:00:48 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
| 12:01:01 | <quitebk> | @help list |
| 12:01:02 | <lambdabot> | list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command]. |
| 12:01:03 | <dminuoso_> | Hah, dont fall for this trap. |
| 12:01:09 | <dminuoso_> | Nobody knows how to use lambdabot. |
| 12:01:17 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: I use "cabal build all", which will silently skip unbuildable components |
| 12:01:25 | <dminuoso_> | We all just know specific invocations of lambdabot commands becausee someone else has used them before. |
| 12:01:34 | <dminuoso_> | It's utterly non-self documenting. |
| 12:01:43 | <quitebk> | Thanks for the heads up haha |
| 12:01:47 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: It's basically a trick to ensure things don't fail when I build on cluster with no cairo |
| 12:02:13 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso_ cabal or lamdabot? 😁 |
| 12:02:18 | <dminuoso_> | maerwald[m]: hahah |
| 12:02:29 | <dminuoso_> | I was just about to write `all` is a valid target? uh |
| 12:02:48 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso_: unless your package is called 'all' |
| 12:02:50 | <dminuoso_> | quitebk: https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot has a few examples that may be helpful |
| 12:02:52 | <maerwald[m]> | Good luck |
| 12:03:15 | <dminuoso_> | maerwald[m]: haha, I totally tripped a coworker since one of my transitive components was named `test` |
| 12:03:21 | <dminuoso_> | and they tried `cabal run test` constantly |
| 12:03:35 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: If you have a cabal.project with multiple packages, "all" builds all of them |
| 12:03:54 | <maerwald[m]> | This is what happens with programs that constantly follow user feature requests |
| 12:03:56 | <dminuoso_> | Let me dig into the source code again. Im not sure how this could work |
| 12:04:22 | <dminuoso_> | I know cabal-install has the notion of an implicit project, but multiple projects I wasnt aware of |
| 12:04:39 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: multiple *packages* in a single project |
| 12:04:45 | <dminuoso_> | Yeah I understand |
| 12:05:07 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: There's no implicit project in my example, though |
| 12:05:13 | <maerwald[m]> | Multiple projects would be fun... now you need a merge strategy for cabal.project files |
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| 12:06:45 | <dminuoso_> | merijn: Right we have this often as well in git repos with a bunch of packages in nested directories like servant |
| 12:08:45 | <maerwald[m]> | There's funny bugs with subdir in cabal.project |
| 12:08:57 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: What's that? |
| 12:09:44 | <dminuoso_> | So far its worked out just fine, aside from the occasional mistake of adding the package both into cabal.project and cabal.project.local |
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| 12:10:01 | <dminuoso_> | Which I never could make sense of until I understood that packages are added together. Kept thinking that .local overrode it |
| 12:10:34 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7131 |
| 12:11:18 | <maerwald[m]> | That's what you get from undocumented file formats |
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| 12:27:51 | <geekosaur> | I thought that was documented, just unclear. ("Monoidal") |
| 12:28:18 | <geekosaur> | I even mentioned that obliquely last night |
| 12:28:32 | <geekosaur> | and you provided the last piece of the puzzle in question |
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| 13:14:44 | <Philonous> | Oh, so aeson decided to break its API, I guess the next week I'll be writing a lot of CPP macros... |
| 13:15:45 | <dminuoso_> | Philonous: What do you mean by break its api? |
| 13:15:51 | <Philonous> | Just pinning all package versions and never updating anything every again suddenly seems very attractive. |
| 13:15:53 | <geekosaur> | aeson 2, I presume |
| 13:16:34 | <Philonous> | Yes |
| 13:16:42 | <dminuoso_> | I wish I could avoid aeson altogether. :( |
| 13:17:07 | <Philonous> | They changed away from HashMaps to an abstract representation and now use some abstract "Key" type instead of Text |
| 13:17:11 | <dminuoso_> | It would be nice if we could have a builtin JSON implementation, one that doesnt artificially introduce 40 transitive dependencies. |
| 13:17:27 | <dminuoso_> | While there exist such solutions on Hackage, the reality is aeson pops up quite frequently |
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| 13:18:21 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: cabal-install has a minimal one it uses |
| 13:19:35 | <dminuoso_> | merijn: Sure, but then you want to use hasql/postgresql-simple, and you suddenly have aeson whether you want it or not. |
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| 13:20:32 | <dminuoso_> | In the past few weeks Ive become mindful of dependency tree baggage. It feels like dependency trees have becoming larger and larger on hackage over the past few years |
| 13:20:44 | <maerwald> | you're using the wrong language then |
| 13:20:55 | <dminuoso_> | Which other language doesnt suffer from this problem? |
| 13:20:57 | <dminuoso_> | C? |
| 13:21:37 | <geekosaur> | you might actually get your wish re json, since one of the future directions of ghc is to use json for communication between it and other programs (such as cabal, but also HLS and the like) |
| 13:21:56 | <geekosaur> | which may mean a minimalish JSON impl shipped along with it in the future |
| 13:22:00 | <maerwald> | Go has json in its stdlib |
| 13:22:20 | <dminuoso_> | maerwald: the dependency blowup is quite prevalent in go as well. |
| 13:22:31 | <dminuoso_> | But yeah, go brings a lot of basic goodies in its stdlib, which helps |
| 13:22:53 | <dminuoso_> | geekosaur: that would be nice I guess. |
| 13:22:58 | <maerwald> | there's a sufficient ecosystem of *real* libraries in Go |
| 13:22:59 | <geekosaur> | C has the same blowup, it's just less obvious because so many distros ship gnome which is kinda maximum dep blowup |
| 13:23:14 | <geekosaur> | so they're all already installed |
| 13:24:01 | <dminuoso_> | C has much less fragmentation, though. I mean in Haskell packages its not uncommon to have 5 different parsing libraries, 4 IP library implementations, 7 different container types, all of different magical flavors, and then half the kmettiverse.. |
| 13:24:15 | <gastus> | https://dpaste.com/FM5NNG6TH Line 115 is seen as tt1 line 43 should have introduced it ScopedTypeVariables is used. |
| 13:25:01 | <dminuoso_> | gastus: can you share the full diagnostic, perhaps? |
| 13:25:02 | <maerwald> | dminuoso_: well, PVP/semver have a negative effect on ecosystems. People experiment more because you can't break anyone's code after all, right? |
| 13:26:01 | <gastus> | https://dpaste.com/3F9DC7YJC |
| 13:26:49 | <[exa]> | dminuoso_: C fragmentation is just much less visible because there's no cackage. Did you try googling for json libraries in C? :D |
| 13:27:12 | <dminuoso_> | [exa]: In C its not uncommon for libraries to just bring a handcrafted JSON implementation. |
| 13:27:19 | <maerwald> | [exa]: is there one that doesn't have memory bugs? :D |
| 13:27:52 | <[exa]> | maerwald: challenging question! |
| 13:28:03 | <dminuoso_> | gastus: Add type signatures to statechanged, run, prog, sumV. If that doesnt help nail it down, split stateChanged into more bindings. |
| 13:28:42 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: I'm gonna go ahead and assume "no" :p |
| 13:28:43 | <dminuoso_> | Or at least type annotate the let-bindings inside stateChanged |
| 13:28:44 | <[exa]> | but I meant pretty much everything. There's more allocators, lex generators, widget toolkits, UI libraries, image libraries, jpeglib clones, container libraries ... than I can count |
| 13:29:50 | <gastus> | dminuoso_: I can try, but the problem is that the tt bottom is not the tt in forall which ScopedTypeVariables should solve AFAIK. |
| 13:30:05 | <dminuoso_> | gastus: Ive looked at the error message and your code, and I cant make heads or tails of it. |
| 13:30:23 | <dminuoso_> | The fact you're getting the diagnostics means one or more of your assumptions are wrong. |
| 13:30:57 | <dminuoso_> | 40 lines of complex code without a single annotation gives ghc *a lot* of inference room |
| 13:31:21 | <dminuoso_> | It's going to be near impossible to understand the type error unless you can simultaneously juggle *all* types of *all* bindings used in your head. |
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| 13:33:07 | <dminuoso_> | maerwald: But I guess you have a point. Perhaps this is just what programming really means. |
| 13:33:22 | <dminuoso_> | Its becoming less and less of a creative task, its more of a "plumb things that you dont understand together" |
| 13:33:38 | <dminuoso_> | Libraries where you have some vague idea of a) what they do, b) how to use them. Not audited of course. |
| 13:34:06 | <albet70> | it could be possible to install ghc on linux without root privilege? |
| 13:34:20 | <dminuoso_> | shouldnt ghcup be able to do this? |
| 13:34:24 | <geekosaur> | it's even normal these days: ghcup doesn't require root at all |
| 13:34:49 | <geekosaur> | anything involving your package manager, on the other hand, will require root |
| 13:35:45 | <Philonous> | »nix-shell -p ghc« doesn't require root |
| 13:36:01 | <geekosaur> | but installing nix to begin with does |
| 13:36:05 | <Philonous> | OK, not helping, sorry |
| 13:36:16 | <albet70> | and does ghc package manager need root privileges? cabal? stack? |
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| 13:36:26 | <geekosaur> | last I heard there was no way to use nix without creating /nix and it couldn't even be a symlink |
| 13:36:36 | <geekosaur> | albet70, none of them |
| 13:36:44 | <dminuoso_> | geekosaur: no you can use nix without creating /nix *just* *fine* |
| 13:36:52 | <dminuoso_> | IT has just a slight undesirable consequence |
| 13:37:07 | <dminuoso_> | Namely that you cant use paths off most binary caches anymore |
| 13:37:09 | <geekosaur> | even ghc-pkg --global needs only the permissions you needed to install ghc, which with ghcup will be your normal perms |
| 13:37:16 | <dminuoso_> | Which means you have to recompile *everything* from scratch |
| 13:38:16 | <Philonous> | I used to do that on FreeBSD anyway. It's manageable. |
| 13:38:34 | <merijn> | geekosaur, dminuoso_: You can use nix without creating /nix, you "just" have to compile it from scratch (after chasing down all the dependencies needed to build it) |
| 13:38:41 | <merijn> | Rather defeating the purpose |
| 13:38:51 | <dminuoso_> | not sure about "the purpose" |
| 13:38:58 | <dminuoso_> | It doesnt really defeat "the purpose" |
| 13:39:23 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: The purpose of "being able to install things without manually chasing down all dependencies" |
| 13:39:29 | <dminuoso_> | As long as the build processes are deterministic, which nix makes much much simpler to do, this will work out fine. |
| 13:39:47 | <merijn> | You just replace the process of "chasing down dependencies of stuff you want" with "chasing down Nix dependencies" |
| 13:40:25 | <dminuoso_> | I think this is a mischaracterization |
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| 13:41:10 | <dminuoso_> | Imagine the nix store to be a big lazy thing, where "evaluating" values amounts to compiling them. As long as the act itself is pure, you can defer the evaluation to someone else, and that's hydra that feeds cache.nixos.org |
| 13:41:18 | <dminuoso_> | Whether you evaluate it, or nix, doesnt really matter |
| 13:41:29 | <dminuoso_> | Imagine the copying off the cache to be just an optimization from saving you some time |
| 13:41:35 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: It is not for practical purposes |
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| 13:41:56 | <dminuoso_> | gentoo users will agree that compiling things from scratch on todays machine is, for most software, not a big deal |
| 13:42:06 | <dminuoso_> | seems to be practical enough for them |
| 13:42:08 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: If you wanna use it without compiling from scratch AND without /nix, you have to setup a whole ass chroot environment |
| 13:42:25 | <merijn> | It's too much work to be usable in the settings I want it |
| 13:42:57 | <dminuoso_> | merijn: depending on the scale, you can simply set up a hydra yourself to prepare a cache |
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| 13:43:24 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: That already assumes more hardware than I have control over (i.e. non-zero, as opposed zero) |
| 13:43:36 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: I want something that just needs disk space and a shell |
| 13:44:01 | <merijn> | See: ghc & cabal |
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| 13:44:33 | <dminuoso_> | Yeah, that just wont work for nix currently |
| 13:44:42 | <dminuoso_> | Im not sure whether this can be solved at all |
| 13:45:02 | <dminuoso_> | Other than chroot trickery |
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| 13:46:47 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: Right, hence why Nix is useless for all usecases I'd actually find it useful |
| 13:47:16 | <dminuoso_> | merijn: well you *can* just build it once and push closures onto some arbitrary cache host |
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| 13:47:30 | <dminuoso_> | I think there are pragmatic solutions to reduce the impact |
| 13:48:03 | <merijn> | dminuoso_: "you can build" <- yeah, my entire goal was not to build (as in program, setup, configure) anything at all |
| 13:48:13 | <dminuoso_> | Well, you wouldnt really? |
| 13:48:26 | <dminuoso_> | You'd just type `nix build ...` or `nix-shell -p ghc` or whatever, and then just *wait* |
| 13:49:09 | <dminuoso_> | Then when your system has build the entire closure, you can just nix-copy-closure it onto a cache host, and point nix to use it. The next time you can simply point nix towards the cache host, and it will grab the store paths off it |
| 13:49:40 | <dminuoso_> | The building happens completely transparently. A cache miss merely translates into waiting until your local machine has produced the exact store paths it would otherwise have copied off the cache |
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| 13:51:20 | <dragestil> | how I do inspect / trace things from libraries with no Show, like TypecheckedModule and DynFlags in GHC? |
| 13:51:24 | <maerwald> | cache miss results in build failure xD |
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| 13:51:45 | <dminuoso_> | dragestil: StandaloneDeriving tends to work nicely |
| 13:52:03 | <geekosaur> | maybe not in ghc |
| 13:52:28 | <geekosaur> | note that ghc has its own alternative to Show though, used by the ppr* functions (Outputable) |
| 13:53:16 | <dminuoso_> | As long as they are exposed in modules |
| 13:53:42 | <dminuoso_> | I think Ive seen some TH library exposing a kind of justShowItDamnit |
| 13:53:45 | <dminuoso_> | Cant recall its name |
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| 13:55:20 | <dragestil> | still reading about standalone derivation on haskell wiki. i swear it's the hardest wiki to read |
| 13:56:17 | <[Leary]> | gastus: Due to plain Haskell's implicit foralls, STVs syntax is a bundle of ad hoc nonsense (imo it should have just gotten a new keyword). |
| 13:56:20 | <dminuoso_> | Mmm for GHC types it probably will be tedious, as you'd have to transitively do this on every nested type |
| 13:56:37 | <dragestil> | yeah the ghc types are huge |
| 13:56:49 | <dminuoso_> | [Leary]: Or they should have just made a breaking change bringing them always into scope. |
| 13:57:02 | <dminuoso_> | With some extension to turn it off, rather than the opposite. |
| 13:57:05 | <[Leary]> | Your trouble is this: "The type variable is quantified by the single, syntactically visible, outermost forall of the type signature." |
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| 13:57:26 | <gastus> | https://dpaste.com/3JCVZLXBP |
| 13:57:48 | <[Leary]> | So "forall label . forall tt . forall a ." only brings `label` into scope. |
| 13:58:10 | <gastus> | That makes sense cause tt2 is the first issue. |
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| 14:00:19 | <gastus> | Yes, if i change the order eg putting tt first I get the same error with label |
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| 14:01:17 | <dminuoso_> | [Leary]: Uh really? |
| 14:01:21 | <gastus> | @ [Leary] looks like you identified the problem. Still don't understadn how to solve it. |
| 14:01:22 | <dragestil> | Well TypeCheckedModule is not an Outputabble |
| 14:01:27 | <dminuoso_> | I did not expect that. :( |
| 14:01:34 | <[Leary]> | gastus: forall label tt a. |
| 14:01:51 | <geekosaur> | I would suspect there's not much chance of a usable Show instance for it either |
| 14:02:02 | <geekosaur> | I don't think the AST can have a Show instance |
| 14:02:08 | <dragestil> | why not? |
| 14:02:13 | <gastus> | :-) :-) :-) |
| 14:02:40 | <dragestil> | how do you learn about these things if they don't show |
| 14:03:13 | <dminuoso_> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-src-exts-1.23.1/docs/Language-Haskell-Exts-Syntax.html |
| 14:03:16 | <geekosaur> | TTG complicates things, iirc the AST is higher order |
| 14:03:18 | <dminuoso_> | haskell-src-exts can do Show |
| 14:03:57 | <[Leary]> | dminuoso_: Yes, unfortunately. I didn't know this myself until I looked over the STVs manual entry just now. |
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| 14:04:25 | <[Leary]> | A breaking change would have been better than this. Ad hoc hurts. |
| 14:05:04 | <dragestil> | dminuoso_: do you mean h-s-e can do show for TypecheckedModule? |
| 14:05:26 | <dminuoso_> | No |
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| 14:06:47 | <dragestil> | AST is just a tree, why can't it have a show |
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| 14:08:14 | <geekosaur[m]> | Because of Trees That Grow which means it changes dynamically |
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| 14:08:38 | <geekosaur[m]> | It's a higher order tree |
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| 14:11:40 | <dragestil> | but isn't ttg a later stage than typecheck? |
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| 14:18:29 | <geekosaur[m]> | It's used by all stages, it's built into the structure of tree nodes |
| 14:18:33 | <lortabac> | dragestil: TTG is a design pattern, maybe you are getting confused with STG |
| 14:18:58 | <dragestil> | lortabac: you are right |
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| 14:20:22 | <geekosaur[m]> | And it makes tree nodes in effect dynamically typed |
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| 14:23:11 | <lortabac> | IMHO Haskell lacks a universal 'trace' primitive that can print any runtime expression |
| 14:23:24 | <lortabac> | something that triggers a warning if you forget to remove it |
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| 14:25:42 | <geekosaur> | the main problem with that is it means carrying around type information of some kind. which is the main part of what Show does |
| 14:25:48 | <geekosaur> | (or Outputable, etc.) |
| 14:25:58 | <geekosaur> | the other big problem is that functions are values |
| 14:28:11 | <geekosaur> | there's somethingin TH which can do it to some extent, as I think someone mentioned earlier, but it's cheating and digging the type information out at compile time to use at run time, which has both performance and memory costs |
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| 14:36:11 | <exarkun> | My Eithers keep stacking up. I have an idea that `Either a (Either a c) -> Either a c` might help somehow. Is that a reasonable idea? Is that an existing function somewhere? |
| 14:36:33 | <exarkun> | Or something vaguely that shape, at least |
| 14:36:36 | <[Leary]> | join? |
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| 14:36:55 | <geekosaur> | sounds monadic, at least |
| 14:38:42 | <exarkun> | Hm join seems plausible but it doesn't do to `Left` what I might have guessed |
| 14:39:11 | <exarkun> | but thinking about join helps clarify my thinking about this problem, I think |
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| 14:41:48 | <merijn> | exarkun: What would you have expected to do on Left, then? |
| 14:42:43 | <geekosaur> | there are alternatives to Either that might serve your needs better, depending on the answer to that question |
| 14:42:50 | <geekosaur> | (These, Chronicle, etc.) |
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| 14:43:56 | <merijn> | Validation |
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| 14:44:06 | <merijn> | Chronicle is just TheseT, no? |
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| 14:44:29 | <merijn> | It is |
| 14:44:50 | <geekosaur> | and a bunch of helpers, plus has the ability to distinguish between "warning" type `Left`s and "error" type |
| 14:45:15 | <merijn> | geekosaur: It's literally TheseT, though? They come from the same package... |
| 14:45:25 | <geekosaur> | and fail immediately vs. fail at end |
| 14:45:40 | <geekosaur> | Chronicle is kinda the swiss army knife version of TheseT |
| 14:46:07 | <maerwald> | gimme an open sum type version of TheseT :p |
| 14:47:07 | <exarkun> | Hm, more thought required, it seems. |
| 14:48:38 | <sm> | anon15041149: figured it out ? |
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| 14:49:14 | <anon15041149> | sm: yes, I managed to fix it, thank you |
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| 14:59:57 | <k`> | Is there a class like `MonadTrans t => MapTrans t where mapTrans :: (forall x. m x -> n x) -> t m a -> t n a` ? |
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| 15:06:29 | <merijn> | k`: You want natural transformations |
| 15:06:32 | <merijn> | @hackage mmorph |
| 15:06:33 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mmorph |
| 15:07:07 | <merijn> | :t hoist -- not sure if lambdabot has mmorph |
| 15:07:08 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: hoist |
| 15:07:41 | <k`> | I'm looking at it now on Hoogle. Thanks! |
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| 15:09:25 | <merijn> | @hoogle hoist |
| 15:09:25 | <lambdabot> | Pipes hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . () => m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b |
| 15:09:25 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.Morph hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b |
| 15:09:25 | <lambdabot> | Streaming hoist :: (MFunctor t, Monad m) => (forall a . () => m a -> n a) -> t m b -> t n b |
| 15:09:30 | <merijn> | Ah, see, there we go :) |
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| 16:01:36 | <k`> | Would it make sense to add a `WrapMonadTrans` newtype to `Control.Monad.Trans.Class` to allow `deriving via` for lifted transformer classes? |
| 16:02:14 | <k`> | Or does the presence of methods that aren't lifts make that pointless? |
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| 16:03:57 | <k`> | Looks like making an `MFunctor` instance would make deriving MonadReader, MonadWriter &c. possible. |
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| 16:06:39 | <Sinbad> | I trying to get the git commit hash into version info of an application. When running the app with cabal exe, it works as expected. But after cabal install, the app shows UNKNOWN. How can achieve what I want? |
| 16:08:31 | <geekosaur> | you need to fetch and embed it at compile time, you typically can't retrieve it at runtime. I think there's a module on hackage for this, using TH |
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| 16:09:15 | <Sinbad> | I am using the gitrev package and cabal 3.6.2 |
| 16:09:38 | <Sinbad> | this package uses template haskell |
| 16:09:39 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/githash might work better |
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| 16:17:11 | <Sinbad> | that looks the same as gitrev, and have the same problem. cabal install build the executable differently, I think that is the problem. |
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| 16:21:30 | <geekosaur> | hm. Snoyman usually knows what he's doing |
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| 16:23:13 | <geekosaur> | mm, looks like it's a known issue and both cabal v2+ and stack v2+ have it |
| 16:23:26 | <geekosaur> | and it's not really fixable because they build outside the git repo |
| 16:24:28 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/snoyberg/githash/issues/18 |
| 16:24:44 | <geekosaur> | the discussion is about stack but cabal v2 does the same thing for the same reason |
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| 16:27:03 | <geekosaur> | suggested workaround is to include the relevant information under .git in extra-source-files in the cabal file |
| 16:27:18 | <geekosaur> | the README discusses where the information it needs lives |
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| 16:38:22 | <maerwald> | Sinbad: 'cabal install' does not what you think it does :p |
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| 16:51:16 | <Sinbad> | geekosaur: thanks for your help. |
| 16:52:05 | <geekosaur> | also what maerwald said: both modes compile the same way, cabal install just drops a symlink to the result somewhere accessible |
| 16:52:33 | <geekosaur> | the `cabal build` stage should be identical for both cases |
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| 16:53:01 | geekosaur | got sucked down a wormhole checking ghc's issues for something else |
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| 16:53:24 | <Sinbad> | geekosaur: no, I use copy mode and the binaries are not the same. |
| 16:54:12 | <geekosaur> | sure that doesn't mean it's been stripped? |
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| 16:56:50 | <Sinbad> | no, it is not stripped. |
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| 16:59:49 | <Sinbad> | simply, the two executable are not build in the same environment in respect to .git/, that is all. |
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| 17:06:47 | <k`> | Kind of confusing how `cabal -v2 test` and `cabal v2-test` are completely different. |
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| 17:37:44 | <adamCS> | I'm trying to write a type-indexed expression type (sort of like in Richard Eisenberg's "STITCh" paper). And, I think, I was hoping to use recursion schemes to evaluate the AST (into Text; this is for a DSL to write code in another language). But the GADT I have now is not a functor, or even a higher-order functor as in the "compdata" package, because the type-index is of a kind other than "Type". |
| 17:38:58 | <adamCS> | Am I missing something obvious that might make such a thing recursion-schemes amenable? |
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| 17:42:34 | <adamCS> | https://pastebin.com/qbNydPLT |
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| 18:32:21 | <[Leary]> | adamCS: I don't know about existing machinery, but you can do something like this: https://gist.github.com/LSLeary/f6ab06b3a7b0a78104f385c5b8f540ae |
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| 19:09:13 | <Atrx> | Hello |
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| 19:50:14 | <[Leary]> | adamCS: I had the wrong variety of functor. I've revised the gist. |
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| 20:26:03 | <adamCS> | [Leary]: THanks! That's super helpful. |
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| 23:26:35 | <Axman6> | o/ |
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| 23:42:59 | <EvanR> | \o |
| 23:43:29 | <geekosaur> | \o/ |
| 23:43:42 | <Axman6> | Connection established! |
| 23:47:05 | <hpc> | lmao |
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| 23:59:56 | <dragestil> | does anyone know if integer-gmp has a source forge link? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/integer-gmp |
All times are in UTC on 2022-05-23.