Logs on 2022-05-30 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:18:38 | <Bulby[m]> | i don't like that everything needs spaces around it |
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| 00:19:41 | <Bulby[m]> | ah, it uses skipMany |
| 00:19:56 | <Bulby[m]> | it should explicitly state no spaces are needed |
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| 00:25:38 | <Bulby[m]> | haha glad I retooled this - just noticed I forgot the `==` symbol |
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| 00:35:45 | <dsal> | What needs to have spaces around it? |
| 00:36:06 | <Bulby[m]> | `space` in Text.Megaparsec.Char.Lexer |
| 00:36:13 | <Bulby[m]> | it doesn't tho |
| 00:36:22 | <dsal> | Having an option for common uses isn't the same as requiring it. |
| 00:36:39 | <dsal> | I parse binary protocols, fixed-width formats, and all kinds of other weird stuff. |
| 00:36:44 | <Bulby[m]> | it says "skipMany" |
| 00:36:51 | <Bulby[m]> | uses skipMany |
| 00:36:59 | <Bulby[m]> | I thought it used something like skipSome |
| 00:37:25 | <dsal> | I'm not sure what the context is of what you're saying. |
| 00:37:36 | <Bulby[m]> | it's fine - don't want to ramble |
| 00:37:41 | <dsal> | Normally, it's just `lexeme parserForThingI'mExpecting` |
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| 00:38:32 | <k`> | What's the point of the second type parameter of `Rep` (of the 'Generic' class)? Just to make default signatures impossible to write without QuantifiedConstraints? |
| 00:42:09 | <jackdk> | k`: https://wiki.haskell.org/GHC.Generics says "try to ignore the p parameter in all types; it's there just for future compatibility" |
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| 01:55:55 | <Bulby[m]> | ok... i don't want to use haskeline for reading lines... is there something like it that um works crossplatform |
| 01:56:06 | <Bulby[m]> | e.g. you can move cursor, edit it |
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| 02:00:35 | <Bulby[m]> | tbh i just want something that will make polysemy happy |
| 02:02:24 | hochata[m] | is now known as hochata |
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| 02:13:56 | <dsal> | the way I make polysemy happy is by leaving it alone. It doesn't get along well with others and seems to rather enjoy being off in the corner without being bothered by people trying to build things. |
| 02:15:44 | <Cale> | ahaha, true |
| 02:17:08 | <Bulby[m]> | haskeline uses MonadMask which is a pain to add to Sem |
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| 02:18:08 | <jackdk> | http://lancs.ac.uk/~simmsb/writing-a-discord-library-using-polysemy/ hits the same problem, dunno if it's useful |
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| 02:21:42 | <Bulby[m]> | also using haskeline as polysemy feels wrong given how polysemy works - it uses it's own monad transformer however it also has settings - altho this is how polysemy-req does it afaik |
| 02:25:10 | <Bulby[m]> | peeking at state it does some magic parameterizing |
| 02:32:43 | <Bulby[m]> | i need sleep, i'll get back at it tommorow |
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| 05:44:24 | <dragestil> | Do people get "There are files missing in the ‘cabal-doctest-1.0.9’ package," when doing cabal [new-]build? |
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| 06:58:54 | <dragestil> | turned out it's a problem with arch gnu/linux way of doing haskell |
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| 07:03:37 | <jackdk> | dragestil: seems most people get their GHC from ghcup these days, not distro packages |
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| 07:03:52 | dextaa5 | is now known as dextaa |
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| 07:04:37 | <dragestil> | jackdk: ghcup is pretty neat |
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| 07:28:26 | <ffi-curious> | Hello! I am looking into making bindings to some C functions in MacOS just for my own usage. The tricky thing is that `FSEventStreamCreate` takes a function pointer that is called whenever an event occurs. |
| 07:29:02 | <ffi-curious> | If I could call a `FunPtr` to `tryPutMVar` from the C code (which I know is possible) that seems like it would ideal for performance. The problem is that I do not know if that is safe for the Haskell runtime. |
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| 07:29:13 | <ffi-curious> | Does anyone know much about this scenario? |
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| 07:33:30 | <ffi-curious> | Alternatively, does anyone know if there's a better place to ask about this? |
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| 07:47:35 | <tdammers> | Have you read this bit: https://wiki.haskell.org/GHC/Using_the_FFI |
| 07:47:50 | <tdammers> | the TL;DR: it should be OK as long as you don't mark your imports as `unsafe`. |
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| 07:50:03 | <dminuoso> | Possibly unpopular opinion: unsafe ffi should be made to behave as safe in GHC. |
| 07:50:16 | <dminuoso> | It'd be conforming to specification, and reduce quite a few bugs. |
| 07:52:24 | <dminuoso> | And perhaps add some -f-unsafe-as-unsafe-ffi flag that brings the old behavior back. 5 out of the 5 FFI libraries last used hung up my Haskell programs annoyingly. :( |
| 07:52:48 | <ffi-curious> | tdammers, I am not so familiar with Windows programming, but I think this is saying, "it is fine for there to be a thread running some C code, and it can call the `FncPtr` as long as you deallocate everything afterwards." Does that match your understanding? |
| 07:53:47 | <ffi-curious> | The MacOS file watching API needs you to spawn a thread specifically for the watcher. (I assume Haskell doesn't make a "run loop" at least.) So if I am understanding the Windows case right, I think it should be the same for my scenario. |
| 07:53:52 | <dminuoso> | ffi-curious: An FFI function can be marked `unsafe` or `safe`. If its marked `unsafe` you should (probably must) not invoke functions that can block for a long time, and you may not call back into Haskell land from C. |
| 07:54:24 | <dminuoso> | In other words: If you want to call back into Haskell code, you should only do this from FFI functions marked as `safe` |
| 07:54:40 | <tdammers> | Also: https://wiki.haskell.org/GHC/Using_the_FFI#Are_FunPtr.27s_stable.3F |
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| 07:57:15 | <dminuoso> | tdammers: Mmm, that last note about freeing a FunPtr from inside itself is incorrect. The linked thread contains a lot of "uh I worked on it and Im not even sure" |
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| 07:57:40 | dminuoso | should probaby make a wiki account |
| 07:58:07 | <tdammers> | hmm, good point |
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| 07:58:55 | <ffi-curious> | Thank you for the great links! This is super helpful info! It's been a bit since I read about the specifics of `safe`. In the file watcher case, the Mac API wants you to `pthread_create` a thread specifically for the "run loop". So my ways of communicating with Haskell from there are (1) write a file descriptor so that I can use `threadWaitRead` or |
| 07:58:55 | <ffi-curious> | (2) use `tryPutMVar` directly. Would `safe` have any impact on (2)? I thought it was about the specific way the function was called? |
| 08:00:13 | <ffi-curious> | Hmm, I guess https://github.com/luite/hfsevents/blob/master/System/OSX/FSEvents.hs does use the `safe` calls. |
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| 08:01:44 | <ffi-curious> | My theory on going for (2) is that I can skip having the info go through a pipe (and doing another user space to kernel space to user space traversal) |
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| 08:02:22 | <dminuoso> | ffi-curious: safe has no impact on (2) and would be the preferable method. |
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| 08:02:57 | <dminuoso> | ffi-curious: Be sure to also consider STM |
| 08:03:13 | <dminuoso> | (TQueue might be of interest to you as well) |
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| 08:04:38 | <dminuoso> | In fact, the note about pthread_create API is just about internals. When you forkIO/async a separate Haskell thread, you get the same behavior. |
| 08:05:18 | <dminuoso> | So you have a kind of "run loop" when you write `forkIO watcher` with `watcher = forever $ do tok <- takeMVar ref; stuff` |
| 08:05:28 | <ffi-curious> | My scenario is just a very bespoke file watcher, so the reason for `tryPutMVar` is that I can use it as a "queue" with a length of 1. It essentially is saying "hey, some events occurred that you should look into". |
| 08:05:55 | <dminuoso> | Do you care about the file event itself? |
| 08:05:55 | <ffi-curious> | Where's the note about pthread_create? |
| 08:06:04 | <dminuoso> | ffi-curious: the one you made. |
| 08:06:26 | <dminuoso> | `[...] In the file watcher case, the Mac API wants you to `pthread_create` a thread specifically for the "run loop" [...]` |
| 08:07:01 | <ffi-curious> | Oh, I think I see. Are you saying that GHC will also use pthread_create and call things like tryPutMVar? |
| 08:07:23 | <ffi-curious> | And in that case, why would it be an issue to call tryPutMVar if the pthread was not created by GHC? |
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| 08:07:49 | <ffi-curious> | (I do not care about the file events. Other code will sort that out.) |
| 08:07:52 | <dminuoso> | You're reading too much into the requirement of pthread_create |
| 08:08:27 | <dminuoso> | All this is saying: "you likely want to use a separate thread and somehow notify this on the event [rather than blocking in the callback]" |
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| 08:09:51 | <ffi-curious> | From https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/FSEvents_ProgGuide/UsingtheFSEventsFramework/UsingtheFSEventsFramework.html |
| 08:09:51 | <ffi-curious> | "Once you have created an event stream, you must schedule it on your application’s run loop." |
| 08:09:52 | <ffi-curious> | "If you don’t already have a run loop, you will need to devote a thread to this task." |
| 08:10:07 | <dminuoso> | Yes, just use forkIO with forever/infinite recursion. |
| 08:10:17 | <dminuoso> | That will give you your event loop |
| 08:10:23 | <dminuoso> | Use MVar or STM to wake it up |
| 08:10:37 | <dminuoso> | Heck, you could even do this from the main thread without forkIO if you wanted to |
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| 08:13:51 | <ffi-curious> | I am familiar with Haskell's light weight threads and the various concurrency primitives, but I think the MacOS API has stronger requirements. |
| 08:13:51 | <ffi-curious> | From https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/CoreFoundation/Conceptual/CFRunLoops/Concepts/RunLoops.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20001517-CJBJHAJG |
| 08:13:52 | <ffi-curious> | "Run loops are strongly tied to the threads in your application. Every thread has exactly one run loop. No more and no less." |
| 08:13:52 | <ffi-curious> | I do not know the details of `forkOS`, but it does seem safer to just use `pthread_create` so that there's 100% certainty to follow the MacOS rules about runloops |
| 08:15:19 | <ffi-curious> | Oh, I see, I think you were describing what the Haskell side will be like. That is no problem! The part I'm worried about is the interaction between C and the Haskell runtime when Haskell function like `tryPutMVar` is called from C. |
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| 08:23:01 | <ffi-curious> | Maybe I don't see, haha, reading the links more times! |
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| 08:41:49 | <ffi-curious> | Started looking through the GHC source code and found a very interesting lead! |
| 08:41:50 | <ffi-curious> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/rts/RtsAPI.c#L906-931 |
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| 08:43:59 | <ffi-curious> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.7/docs/html/users_guide/ffi-chap.html#waking-up-haskell-threads-from-c |
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| 08:49:23 | <ffi-curious> | Incredible, I believe that's the answer! Thank you to tdammers and dminuoso! |
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| 10:39:53 | <nun90> | hey gay |
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| 10:42:36 | <nun90> | When I type in stack,I have a problem |
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| 10:42:49 | <nun90> | Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/14180d215db0930a2a511e5688562297/logs.txt |
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| 10:43:29 | <nun90> | :G |
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| 11:43:51 | <geekosaur> | nun90, I'm not a stack user but my guess is you need a project to be able to use packages that aren't in stackage |
| 11:44:17 | <geekosaur> | the warning at the top seems to be telling you this (and how to work around it if you really do want to use the global project) |
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| 13:52:17 | <shapr> | what are good options for cabal test to show all the things? I've been using: cabal test --test-show-details=direct --test-option=--format=progress |
| 13:52:29 | <shapr> | but that doesn't show me each of the hspec names, how do I see more? |
| 13:53:01 | <shapr> | oh, I bet I can find out on http://hspec.github.io/options.html |
| 13:55:19 | <maerwald[m]> | shapr: I simply don't use `cabal test`, but `cabal run` |
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| 14:03:54 | <moonsheep> | is there a good way to automatically derive a PersistEntity from an already existing type in persistent? (without using the quasiquoter I mean) |
| 14:04:13 | <moonsheep> | I found derivePersistFieldJSON, but that only creates a PersistField, not the full PersistEntity |
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| 14:45:19 | <Badgerington> | Hello I am trying to download Haskell to work on some music in supercollider with Tidalcycles |
| 14:45:45 | <geekosaur> | we generally recommend ghcup |
| 14:45:52 | <Badgerington> | I have put this into my terminal window : curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | sh |
| 14:46:14 | <Badgerington> | curl: (60) SSL certificate problem: certificate has expired |
| 14:46:14 | <Badgerington> | More details here: https://curl.haxx.se/docs/sslcerts.html |
| 14:47:46 | <Badgerington> | it also says no such file or directory |
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| 14:49:43 | <geekosaur> | the cert on get-ghcup.haskell.org appears to be fine. is your local root certificate chain up to date? (the root cert for *.haskell.org's certificates was updated last August, and the old one has expired) |
| 14:49:47 | <int-e> | well, that certificate error is odd. (Can't reproduce; the certificate I see is valid until July 24th) |
| 14:50:46 | <Badgerington> | Is there a way for me to check if it is up to date? Sorry absolute beginner here |
| 14:51:00 | <hpc> | works for me on fedora 31 |
| 14:51:16 | <hpc> | also jeez, i really need to update |
| 14:51:24 | <shapr> | oh hey, I've started a series of random talks, and Samuel Gelineau was the first, here's a talk about recursion schemes: https://youtu.be/2O4tYeDga8o |
| 14:51:44 | <hpc> | Badgerington: what os are you on? |
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| 14:52:06 | <Badgerington> | mojave 10.14.6 |
| 14:52:50 | <hpc> | make sure you have DST Root CA X3 in your root ca store? |
| 14:52:55 | <hpc> | i don't know much about how mac does certs |
| 14:53:17 | <hpc> | (see also openssl s_client -connect get-ghcup.haskell.org:443) |
| 14:54:12 | <geekosaur> | it'll be the Keychain Access app |
| 14:54:36 | <geekosaur> | I don't know if it has an option to update the root certificates |
| 14:54:41 | <hpc> | also if you follow that curl.haxx.se link, it tells you how to use firefox's ca bundle |
| 14:54:44 | <hpc> | which definitely has it |
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| 14:56:56 | <hpc> | also if you can't get your os cert store updated, curl has --cacert |
| 14:57:54 | <Badgerington> | i am on the keychain access app and can see that some have expired but there is one that is active |
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| 15:14:47 | <geekosaur> | you need specifically the key for /C=US/O=Internet Security Research Group/CN=ISRG Root X1 |
| 15:15:51 | <geekosaur> | https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/422332/how-do-i-update-my-root-certificates-on-an-older-version-of-mac-os-e-g-el-capi |
| 15:16:00 | <geekosaur> | oh, they're gone :( |
| 15:17:48 | <int-e> | Hah, "antique" |
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| 15:48:21 | <Bulby[m]> | does recursive State in polysemy work how I think it does (perserving state) |
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| 15:59:55 | <Bulby[m]> | because my Haskeline thing will be looping |
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| 16:00:10 | <Bulby[m]> | and it would be a real issue if it forgot history each loop |
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| 16:05:51 | <[exa]> | Bulby[m]: how do you mean recursive State? State action invoking itself? |
| 16:06:01 | <Bulby[m]> | yes |
| 16:06:46 | <[exa]> | like, someAction = do { put 123; x <- get; doSomething; someAction } ? |
| 16:07:00 | <Bulby[m]> | yes - but conditionally |
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| 16:07:33 | <[exa]> | in this case the State is actually not recursive, just the "line" of state actions is generated by recursive function |
| 16:07:45 | <Bulby[m]> | hm... |
| 16:08:02 | <Bulby[m]> | that's a problem - how would I create a recursive implementation |
| 16:08:22 | <[exa]> | you want to backup your State and pop it back if something fails? |
| 16:08:34 | <Bulby[m]> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Hd3SdCSt |
| 16:08:39 | <Bulby[m]> | this is REPL stuff |
| 16:09:16 | <Bulby[m]> | `haskelineToInputState` is just an interpreter |
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| 16:09:33 | <Bulby[m]> | with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskeline-0.8.2/docs/System-Console-Haskeline-IO.html |
| 16:09:38 | <Bulby[m]> | these functions |
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| 16:11:21 | <Bulby[m]> | I want it to remember when I do recursive stuff |
| 16:11:55 | <edwardk> | shapr: hey, i know that library! =) |
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| 16:12:55 | <Bulby[m]> | hm, I have an idea - do something like fixpoint but not really |
| 16:13:00 | <[exa]> | Bulby[m]: ah okay I might have understood it the other way |
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| 16:13:28 | <Bulby[m]> | REPL has to remember it's older inputs |
| 16:14:10 | <Bulby[m]> | maybe I could add a new effect that handles it? |
| 16:14:57 | <Bulby[m]> | e.g. `Continue :: m a -> Haskeline m a` ? |
| 16:14:57 | <[exa]> | aah I get it now |
| 16:15:11 | <[exa]> | your interpreter discards its output state, right? |
| 16:15:39 | <edwardk> | is this yet another person being bitten by the fact that Haskeline hides the implementation of InputT? |
| 16:15:43 | edwardk | tunes in |
| 16:15:46 | <[exa]> | (your interpreter = haskelineToInputState) |
| 16:15:50 | <Bulby[m]> | closeInput does that, yes? |
| 16:16:03 | <Bulby[m]> | edwardk: i'm using the IO |
| 16:16:24 | <Bulby[m]> | [exa]: all it does is `H.queryInput (daRelatedFunction)` |
| 16:16:31 | <edwardk> | the IO? |
| 16:16:40 | <Bulby[m]> | oops, this is irc, sorry for any matrix mess |
| 16:17:00 | <Bulby[m]> | System.Console.Haskeline.IO |
| 16:18:29 | <Bulby[m]> | it's stateful, w/e that means |
| 16:18:36 | <[exa]> | whew, the InputState is internally just a reference to some MVars and a thread ID |
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| 16:18:52 | <Bulby[m]> | meaning? |
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| 16:20:10 | <[exa]> | so technically it doesn't even change, so it should remember its older inputs automagically |
| 16:20:28 | <Bulby[m]> | really? i'll have to test that |
| 16:21:17 | <[exa]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskeline-0.8.2/docs/src/System.Console.Haskeline.IO.html#InputState |
| 16:21:31 | <[exa]> | OTOH honestly no idea how it works together with polysemy |
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| 16:23:01 | <Bulby[m]> | haha this is my first effect |
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| 16:23:54 | [exa] | sees the implementation of InputT |
| 16:24:10 | <[exa]> | this amount of nested ReaderT can't be unseen |
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| 16:58:38 | <Bulby[m]> | \o/ it remembers |
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| 17:01:40 | <Bulby[m]> | and it works (at least what I use) |
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| 17:06:08 | sympt7 | is now known as sympt |
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| 17:14:08 | <[exa]> | Bulby[m]: o great |
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| 17:33:39 | <[exa]> | Selective question -- I was reading the "Staged selective parser combinators" (willis, wu&pickering from icfp 2020) -- I understood that restricting the parsers to Selectives basically limits the grammars that can be parsed to context-free (with ambiguous <|>) or PEGs (with greedy <|> and no `try`), as opposed to general context-sensitive ones parsed with monads in usual parsecs. Is there some kind of |
| 17:33:45 | <[exa]> | formal proof that shows why this holds? I'd naively expect that one could simulate the context even with selectives, but probably with a significant definition overhead. Is it the overhead size that makes it infeasible? |
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| 17:35:45 | <dminuoso> | [exa]: Where is it claimed that this limitation is imposed? |
| 17:39:40 | <[exa]> | it is very implicit, that's why I'm seeking somthing formal. For example section 2 paragraph "Selectives" says: Full context-sensitivity is enabled by monads |
| 17:39:50 | <[exa]> | q: what's the intermediate state there |
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| 17:41:24 | <lyxia> | I wouldn't read that part too rigorously |
| 17:41:56 | <lyxia> | as you say you can stretch things a lot with the choice of functor |
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| 17:42:58 | <brettgilio> | I vaguely remember somebody telling me that mainline haskell has support for dependent types now. What is the story here? Looking for info, not finding much. |
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| 17:43:06 | <[exa]> | yeah, that's realistically why I'm asking. Is there a formal property of grammars that you lose by going from Monad to Selective? |
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| 17:45:52 | <[exa]> | brettgilio: that's tricky, you can do a lot of useful dependent-type-ish stuff. AFAIK this summarizes the state pretty well https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/dependent-haskell |
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| 18:09:43 | <brettgilio> | [exa] it is ongoing work right? |
| 18:09:52 | <brettgilio> | Thinking of https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~sweirich/publications.html |
| 18:12:39 | <lyxia> | yes it is still ongoing work |
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| 19:13:54 | <Bulby[m]> | can state recursively remember as well in polysemy |
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| 19:16:00 | <chddr> | Hi guys, I'm a little confused with what data type to use as a replacement for [a]. I want something with usual imperative array complexity. There's array library, but also vector, and there are boxed/unboxed and mutable/immutable ones, is there a good resource to read about the topic? |
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| 19:19:22 | <slack1256> | chddr: Most of the modules on the `vector` package explain usage and difference to the other representation. For example https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.3.1/docs/Data-Vector-Mutable.html gives a good idea how to use it. |
| 19:19:47 | <chddr> | So vector would be a good default to use? |
| 19:20:10 | <slack1256> | Yeah, I would start with `Data.Vector` from the `vector package. |
| 19:20:20 | <slack1256> | Only if you know what you are doing, then you can see the other modules. |
| 19:20:33 | <chddr> | Thanks! |
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| 19:43:41 | <[exa]> | Bulby[m]: in this case it was the IO that "remembered" they contents of MVars and other stuff. I'd say for State it will be the same unless you explicitly break it somehow |
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| 20:02:57 | <Bulby[m]> | how would I add a recurse effect to my Haskeline thing |
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| 20:12:13 | <Bulby[m]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-readline 😠 |
| 20:14:28 | <Bulby[m]> | at least my code basically looks the same 🙂 |
| 20:14:34 | <Cale> | Any particular reason you're going with Polysemy? |
| 20:14:43 | <Bulby[m]> | no 🙂 |
| 20:15:02 | <Bulby[m]> | i go with it because we like to have fun here |
| 20:18:09 | <Bulby[m]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-readline-0.2.0.0/docs/src/Polysemy.Readline.html#interpretReadlineAsInputT |
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| 20:18:13 | <Bulby[m]> | basically what my interpreter looks like |
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| 20:18:27 | <Bulby[m]> | except it uses the IO stuff not InputT |
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| 20:19:02 | <Cale> | If you're having fun with it, then by all means, go ahead. :) I remember seeing that it had some strange issues with semantics early on that I'm not sure if they got sorted out or not, and personally I tend to just define my monads in a straightforward way with transformers, and then define application-specific classes rather than using the MTL ones, and that's always worked fairly well. There are cases where if |
| 20:19:02 | <Cale> | transformers pile up, and certain compiler optimisations don't fire, you can have issues, but it's rare, and possible to sidestep in a bunch of ways. |
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| 20:20:38 | <Bulby[m]> | kinda angry I didn't see that library but I'm happy my code looks basically the same |
| 20:22:05 | <Bulby[m]> | not sure how I feel about the remembering wizardry tho |
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| 20:25:57 | <monochrom> | I don't know polysemy, but I know how "State s a = s -> (a, s)" "remembers". (It doesn't have to. It just has to take a parameter and return the same thing or a new thing.) |
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| 20:26:23 | <c_wraith> | I mean... functions in general remember by closing over values |
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| 20:29:31 | <monochrom> | I was very relieved and in awe when I learned that mutable state can be mathematically modelled by state transition functions. |
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| 20:30:50 | <monochrom> | To be sure you could ask thorny efficiency issues such as "but it says that to update one element of a huge array you speak of cloning the whole array". But the mathematcial model is only obliged to predict answers, not costs. |
| 20:32:10 | <monochrom> | The real semantically thorny issue though is sharable heap-allocated things. Then that's still an open question. People are working on it using separation logics. |
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| 20:34:36 | <monochrom> | The relief and awe is "oh so imperative programming is pointfree functional programming!" >:) |
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| 20:35:15 | <tomsmeding> | with completely different syntax :p |
| 20:35:23 | <monochrom> | Yeah! |
| 20:35:50 | <tomsmeding> | which makes all the difference for the programmer, but maybe less so for the theoretical computer scientist ;) |
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| 20:37:56 | <monochrom> | To some extent Backus gets to say "I told you so". He advocated "even if you want state, think and write in terms of state transition functions and composing them". |
| 20:38:29 | <monochrom> | I think he almost invented the State monad. |
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| 20:38:56 | <monochrom> | (In his "can programming be liberated from the von Neumann model" talk and paper.) |
| 20:39:55 | <monochrom> | His explanation got really close to either (x,s)->(y, s) or s->(y,s) |
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| 20:43:11 | <monochrom> | I am a theoretical person. I keep underestimating the ergonomics of syntax and how much it affects other people, yeah. |
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| 20:44:43 | <tomsmeding> | I am a partially theoretical person (in cases like this), but I am acutely aware of how syntax matters when programming |
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| 20:45:56 | <tomsmeding> | I like writing and reading `data Tree a = Leaf | Node (Tree a) a (Tree a)` a lot more than `type 'a tree = | Leaf | Node oif 'a tree * 'a * 'a tree;;` |
| 20:46:05 | <tomsmeding> | oops, s/oif/of/ |
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| 20:46:31 | <tomsmeding> | also C++ template syntax |
| 20:47:16 | <tomsmeding> | also: I like writing an inherently imperative algorithm in C++ much more than writing it in ST |
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| 20:47:56 | <tomsmeding> | those people saying that "haskell is the best imperative programming language" be damned, writing an imperative, mutating algorithm in ST is just plain verbose and annoying :p |
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| 20:48:30 | <monochrom> | I had a classmate (in the aforementioned course using C++ and LLVM API) who said "C++ syntax is toxic". I think maybe that's an exaggeration, but I see the point. (I personally have little qualm, but only because I learned a simpler version of C++ a long time ago, got used to it and bit the bullet.) |
| 20:49:56 | <tomsmeding> | there's a lot in C++ syntax that's not nice, but for writing an imperative, mutating algorithm you don't need template metaprogramming, class inheritance, constexpr, the *. syntax, or any of the other stuff that I'm forgetting |
| 20:50:03 | <monochrom> | Yeah I tried using ST to write the standard random shuffling algorithm. It's a bit too verbose and COBOLy. |
| 20:50:36 | <tomsmeding> | the thing is that you start wanting to reach for neat monadic combinators to reduce the verbosity, but that _severly_ impacts readability |
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| 20:55:01 | <monochrom> | There are some proponents of a syntax so that inside special brackets (e.g., applicative brackets but I need monadic here) {| writeArray a i (readArray a i + 1) |} is desugared to "fmap (+ 1) (readArray a i) >>= writeArray a i", and at least it restores the syntactic convenience of "a[i] = a[i] + 1". |
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| 20:57:24 | <boxscape> | I like Idris' !-notation to take care of that verbosity. Writing a GHC plugin to have it in Haskell atm |
| 20:57:32 | <tomsmeding> | that certainly improves things; the fmap-desugaring that you gave (though I know that you didn't write it as being good haskell code, just as being the desugaring) is precisely such an example of overuse of monadic combinators in this setting I think |
| 20:57:47 | <tomsmeding> | boxscape: example? |
| 20:58:04 | <boxscape> | tomsmeding: main = putStrLn !getLine |
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| 20:58:50 | <tomsmeding> | boxscape: where `f !a ... !z` ~> `a >>= \a' -> ... z >>= \z' -> f a' ... z'`? |
| 20:59:05 | <boxscape> | pretty much yes |
| 20:59:21 | <boxscape> | actually what I'm spending most time on with the plugin is to have it support more than the idris, so that you can get intuitive behavior inside case and if and such |
| 20:59:28 | <boxscape> | s/idris/idris version |
| 21:00:04 | <monochrom> | That is going to be pretty tedious engineering. |
| 21:00:15 | <monochrom> | I mean, thanks for all the hard work! :) |
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| 21:00:29 | <boxscape> | I have a concrete solution in mind but yeah there's quite a lot of AST wrangling |
| 21:01:08 | <tomsmeding> | yes that's pretty cool; I'm not sure whether I'd use it much in practice because I'm kind of hesitant to use ghc plugins in general, but this really sounds super nice |
| 21:01:27 | <boxscape> | yeah I also tend to use plugins very little if I'm being honest |
| 21:01:50 | <monochrom> | There is a chance if a specific ghc plugin becomes very popular, it gets absorbed into ghc out-of-the-box. |
| 21:02:21 | <monochrom> | I mean, even {-# language Arrow #-} started out as a preprocessor haha. |
| 21:02:47 | <monochrom> | Surely this plugin is actually more popular than arrows. |
| 21:02:57 | <boxscape> | yeah it seems like a sensible pathway for extensions to take |
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| 21:12:04 | <henninb> | greetings, I am looking at the function withNthWorkspace and am currently passing greedyView. If I want to make an additional call to spawn within the call how would I do that? |
| 21:12:17 | <tomsmeding> | #xmonad ? |
| 21:18:17 | <henninb> | I want to do it within the anonymous function `+ zipM "M-" "Move to workspace" wsKeys [0..] (withNthWorkspace (\i -> W.greedyView i))` |
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| 21:19:58 | <tomsmeding> | henninb: try the #xmonad channel :) |
| 21:20:23 | <henninb> | thank you littlebobeep. |
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| 23:05:13 | <Bulby[m]> | remembering state would be something like `do state <- get; runState state someSem` |
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| 23:38:45 | <dsal> | :t runState |
| 23:38:47 | <lambdabot> | State s a -> s -> (a, s) |
| 23:39:15 | <dsal> | Running state with state inside a state monad confuses me. Is that some kind of `StateT StateT` |
| 23:39:34 | <Bulby[m]> | we have fun here 🙂 |
| 23:39:59 | <geekosaur> | seems like roughly the `StateT` equivalent of `local` |
| 23:40:12 | <dsal> | Yeah, that'd make sense if it were transformed. |
| 23:40:13 | <geekosaur> | (see ReaderT) |
| 23:40:19 | <dsal> | My brain reduces that to a noop. |
| 23:40:30 | <dsal> | Except for the state-in-state thing. |
| 23:40:44 | <geekosaur> | it's not a noop if it's followed by `put state` |
| 23:41:01 | <dsal> | Makes sense. I don't use StateT much -- does it have something like local? |
| 23:41:06 | <geekosaur> | no |
| 23:41:26 | <geekosaur> | I seem to have to reinvent it every third Haskell program I write |
| 23:41:39 | <geekosaur> | there's a couple implementations on hackage but none of them worth importing just for that |
| 23:42:51 | <Bulby[m]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/polysemy-1.7.1.0/docs/Polysemy-State.html#v:modify is this what local is |
| 23:44:50 | <geekosaur> | no. looks like modify there is the same as in StateT, it applies a modification directly to the state |
| 23:45:27 | <geekosaur> | local runs an operation with a (possibly modified) copy of the state, then restores the original state afterward |
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| 23:46:22 | <geekosaur> | sadly, in the standard libraries local is only for ReaderT, not StateT. as I said, I keep having to reinvent local for StateT in my own programs |
| 23:46:51 | <geekosaur> | and hackage tells me I'm not the only one, so I *think* this isn't simply an indication that I don't "get" some part of StateT yet |
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| 23:55:59 | <DigitalKiwi> | geekosaur: well it could be that it's just you and the other 2 that don't ;p |
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