Logs on 2022-05-31 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:05:34	<Bulby[m]>	i love polysemy - i get to transform any function that can fail into
00:05:34	<Bulby[m]>	`Member Fail r => ... -> Sem r Foo`
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00:08:27	<Axman6>	o/
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00:13:03	<Bulby[m]>	for megaparsec, how do I deal with `=` being matched before `==`
00:13:20	<Axman6>	try natching == before =
00:13:23	<Axman6>	matching*
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00:43:54	<boxscape>	is a thread I create with forkIO guaranteed to terminate once I terminate the program itself, assuming it's not blocked in any way?
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00:44:21	<geekosaur>	it will be terminated even if it is blocked
00:44:29	<Axman6>	is there an implementation somewhere for a list type with at least n elements? data AtLeast n a = AtLeast (TupleOf n a) [a] - wondering if there's a better representation that making a type family for TupleOf (n :: Nat) a
00:44:29	<boxscape>	okay, thanks
00:44:38	<geekosaur>	the main thread is always special and killing it kills all other threads (enforced by the OS)
00:44:43	<boxscape>	I see
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00:45:31	<geekosaur>	Axman6, the only ones I've heard of use lists with type level lengths
00:48:00	<geekosaur>	tuples are a poor choice because that type family's even more of a PITA than type level lengths
00:48:49	<geekosaur>	and then you have to deal with indexing into the tuple to access the first few elements
00:48:51	<Axman6>	yeah
00:48:59	<Axman6>	I guess that porobably is a better implementation
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00:56:05	<Axman6>	@hoogle IsList
00:56:06	<lambdabot>	GHC.Exts class IsList l
00:56:06	<lambdabot>	BasePrelude class IsList l
00:56:06	<lambdabot>	Data.Generics.Product.HList class IsList (f :: Type) (g :: Type) (as :: [Type]) (bs :: [Type]) \| f -> as, g -> bs
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01:01:32	<Bulby[m]>	how do I get functions called by a Sem w/ State to keep that state/be able to modify it
01:02:47	<monochrom>	Are you sure you can't find this in the docs or tutorials?
01:02:59	<Bulby[m]>	lol
01:03:05	<Bulby[m]>	ok
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01:13:24	<Bulby[m]>	that must be true or else modify wouldn't work
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02:19:52	<brettgilio>	Is uncurrying possible in base haskell?
02:21:06	<brettgilio>	I guess one could simulate them using tuples
02:21:13	<brettgilio>	but is that actually uncurrying or just simulating it?
02:24:18	<dsal>	brettgilio: What do you mean?
02:24:21	<dsal>	:t uncurry
02:24:22	<lambdabot>	(a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
02:24:34	<brettgilio>	wasnt aware
02:24:34	<brettgilio>	thanks
02:24:38	<jackdk>	All functions in haskell take one argument - this is true whether the function is "curried" or "uncurried"
02:24:45	<brettgilio>	but it looks like what I said is true
02:24:53	<dibblego>	all of them?
02:24:54	<dsal>	It's still a tuple. It's not clear what you're looking for.
02:24:58	<dsal>	:t all
02:24:59	<lambdabot>	Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Bool
02:24:59	<brettgilio>	because : uncurry simulates uncurrying by tuple
02:25:15	<dsal>	`all` takes one argument, and then it returns a function that takes another argument.
02:25:24	<dibblego>	so every single one?
02:25:25	<jackdk>	dibblego: perhaps I'm being too firm. Can you elaborate?
02:25:31	<brettgilio>	dibblego that is my question
02:25:37	<dibblego>	nah just checking that's all
02:25:56	<brettgilio>	like, in lambda calculus functions are curried by default
02:26:04	<brettgilio>	and I know haskell as a thin wrapper on lambda calculus
02:26:06	<jackdk>	I'm not across all the exotic function arrows, linearity, levity polymorphism stuff
02:26:10	<brettgilio>	but wasnt sure how firm that rule is in haskell
02:26:21	<dsal>	It's just a dream, Bender. There's no such thing as two.
02:26:40	<jackdk>	but I'm pretty sure that every function I interacted with took one argument, and we say things like "this function takes two arguments" as a convenience
02:27:13	<dibblego>	what about this one? (->)
02:27:46	<brettgilio>	:i uncurry
02:28:01	<brettgilio>	Data.Tuple
02:28:03	<brettgilio>	heh
02:28:03	<jackdk>	Is that even a function dibblego ? I think of it as a type constructor, and a special primitive one
02:28:04	<dsal>	:t (->)
02:28:05	<lambdabot>	error: parse error on input ‘->’
02:28:09	<jackdk>	:i (->)
02:28:11	<dibblego>	:k (->)
02:28:12	<lambdabot>	* -> * -> *
02:28:17	<dibblego>	looks like a function to me!
02:28:24	<brettgilio>	-> is a constructor
02:28:30	<dsal>	`,` also looks like a function and I get in a lot of arguments with people about that.
02:28:38	<brettgilio>	, is also a constructor
02:28:40	<dibblego>	it takes argument(s?) and return(s?) values innit?
02:29:13	<dsal>	In Haskell, we don't say a function "returns" a value. We say it "pures" a value.
02:29:18	<jackdk>	dibblego: You could think of a type constructor as a sort of function over types. I was mainly thinking at the value level
02:29:22	<jackdk>	dsal: wut
02:29:33	<dibblego>	:k (->) Int
02:29:35	<lambdabot>	* -> *
02:29:43	<dibblego>	phew ok, so aaallll of them
02:30:15	<dibblego>	there is one exception though, depending on if you call it a function (I don't)
02:30:42	<dibblego>	@type if True
02:30:43	<lambdabot>	error:
02:30:43	<lambdabot>	parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
02:30:46	<dibblego>	oh no!
02:31:01	<dsal>	if isn't a function, it's an abomination.
02:31:09	<dibblego>	me, you, we are friends now
02:31:12	<dsal>	:t bool
02:31:14	<lambdabot>	a -> a -> Bool -> a
02:31:16	<brettgilio>	is the composition of a function always associative?
02:31:47	<dibblego>	yeppers
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02:41:24	<brettgilio>	is there a way to get ghci :t to explicitly show associative parenthesis?
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03:35:21	<hololeap>	brettgilio: what do you mean by "associative parenthesis"? associativity means that it's the same no matter how you write the parenthesis
03:40:44	<hololeap>	e.g: (f . g) . (h . i) = f . (g . (h . i)) = ((f . g) . h) . i
03:41:18	<dibblego>	I expect it means
03:41:23	<dibblego>	:assoc a - b - c
03:41:27	<dibblego>	(a - b) - c
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08:29:48	<trisolaran>	is there a way to add a bunch package imports in the .ghci file?
08:29:56	<trisolaran>	so that i dont have to add them everytime?
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08:36:37	<tomsmeding>	trisolaran: `:set -package thing`?
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08:37:37	<trisolaran>	tomsmeding: import thing
08:37:50	<trisolaran>	-package thing only says it needs the whole package
08:37:55	<tomsmeding>	trisolaran: `:m +Thing`?
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08:39:01	<trisolaran>	that works:_
08:39:04	<trisolaran>	:_
08:39:06	<trisolaran>	:)
08:39:38	<tomsmeding>	trisolaran: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html#ghci-module-cmd
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08:40:06	<trisolaran>	thx!
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08:43:45	<dragestil>	It looks to me there were significant changes in the GHC API from 8.10.7 to the next version 9.0.2. Is there documentation about major changes in this update? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-8.10.7 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.0.2
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08:48:17	<dragestil>	more specifically, I want to know what happened to PackageConfig. It was in 8.10.7 but not 9.0.2. whether it's been moved to a module outside of ghc https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-8.10.7/docs/PackageConfig.html
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08:49:46	<Hecate>	dragestil: you will have better answers on #ghc
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08:50:22	<trisolaran>	tomsmeding: i didn't find a import qualified option in the doc
08:50:35	<Guest\|30>	https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/0d7aceb39b2524dc6f5f1391da4e9e2c/image.png
08:50:48	<trisolaran>	tomsmeding: do you happen to know? :m +Thing qualified as ...
08:50:58	<Guest\|30>	I cannot install ghcup with powershell, this is windows10 system
08:51:11	<dragestil>	Hecate: ok thanks
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08:53:41	<tomsmeding>	trisolaran: hm good point, I think you can't do that with :m. There might be a workaround: create a .hs file with your desired imports, and :l it and :m* it in your .ghci. Not sure how all this interacts with doing 'cabal repl' in a project :p
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09:23:07	<trisolaran>	tomsmeding: thx
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09:32:08	<Guest\|30>	Anyone knows how to install ghcup in win10?
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09:54:53	<maerwald[m]>	Guest\|30: yeah, why
09:55:14	<maerwald[m]>	https://youtu.be/bB4fmQiUYPw
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10:02:41	<kn07_>	https://github.com/antonpuiu/CV/raw/main/resume.pdf
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10:05:51	<Guest\|30>	I found problems when install the ghcup in win10
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10:12:15	<maerwald[m]>	Guest\|30: but you're not gonna tell us what problems?
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10:12:44	<Guest\|30>	https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/0d7aceb39b2524dc6f5f1391da4e9e2c/image.png
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10:16:10	<yushyin>	Guest\|30: 404 "upload not found"
10:16:59	<Guest\|30>	Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/925dc0524da8db5f470993828e93a466/image.png
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10:17:40	<Guest\|30>	I try to install it via powershell, but failed.
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10:20:05	<maerwald[m]>	Guest\|30: what are the contenta of C:\\ghcup\\bin
10:20:05	<maerwald[m]>	*contents
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10:23:10	<Guest\|30>	Just a ghcup.exe file
10:23:35	<Guest\|30>	but it's 0 byte.
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10:26:02	<maerwald[m]>	Guest\|30: do you have antivirus?
10:26:22	<Guest\|30>	Finally I download a single ghcup.exe file and put it into the folder, it works!
10:26:28	<Guest\|30>	Thx a lot!
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12:14:39	<trisolaran>	is there a way to ask ghci to load a package environment such as .ghc.environment.x86_64-linux-9.2.2
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12:16:31	<geekosaur>	a package environment behaves like a p0ackage db; you don't load those all at once, it just tells ghc/ghci where to find packages
12:16:45	<geekosaur>	that said you can do :set -package <pkgname>
12:18:18	<Las[m]>	Does anyone have any idea what could cause `/nix/store/...-binutils-2.35.2/bin/ld.gold: error: /nix/store/...-ghc-9.2.2/lib/ghc-9.2.2/rts/libHSrts.a(Globals.o): multiple definition of 'ghc_unique_counter'` ?
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12:18:39	<Las[m]>	This happens while compiling fourmolu (0.6.0.0 and 0.7.0.0) with GHC 9.2.2
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12:22:59	<Las[m]>	oh there's a GH issue... https://github.com/input-output-hk/haskell.nix/issues/1488
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12:44:29	<polezaivsani>	skimming through the notes, i've just stumbled upon a transcript of somebody helping me out here, and thought i'd call a huge thank you to everybody here just in case somebody missed it last time :)
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15:17:29	<Hemmo>	Hey! Is there a way to remove the "Just" from my instance of show? Right now I have a phone data type which with certain input shows (123456 (Just Other)) and I would like it to be (123456 (Other))
15:17:50	<Hemmo>	Am using a maybe in the mix, so that's why I'm asking.
15:18:28	<Hemmo>	Code is here -> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/IkHUeKQx
15:19:24	<Hemmo>	So my point is that when I use the readPhone function, that it would omit the "Just" from the country code as well as phone type...
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15:22:57	<Hemmo>	And also as a side note, I need to use the Maybe in the constructor of the Phone, because the country code and phone type are supposed to be optional.
15:23:18	<[Leary]>	Hemmo: You're using "==" and a grand excess of if-then-else where you should be pattern matching. That would also solve your problem, more or less. Something like `show (Phone (Just pt) (Just cc) pn) = ...; show (Phone Nothing (Just cc) pn) = ...` etc.
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15:28:47	<[Leary]>	Though, it looks like you can factor the logic a bit better and write it all in one case.
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15:34:22	<Hemmo>	[Leary]: Thanks a ton! Wasn't in the know on how to pattern match with an instance!
15:34:39	<Hemmo>	[Leary]: You mean using the "case" keyword somehow? Haven't used it thus far at all
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15:36:56	<tomsmeding>	> case Just 3 of { Nothing -> "it was nothing" ; Just n -> "it was " ++ show n }
15:36:59	<lambdabot>	"it was 3"
15:37:06	<[Leary]>	It doesn't have anything to do with instances per se; pattern matching is always available in this manner when you define a function. And I didn't mean a case-of expression, though you could use that if you preferred.
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15:37:19	<tomsmeding>	Hemmo: except please use newlines instead of the { ; } :)
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15:37:58	<[Leary]>	> foldMap (show <> " ") (Just 3)
15:38:00	<lambdabot>	error:
15:38:00	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match expected type ‘a0 -> String’
15:38:00	<lambdabot>	with actual type ‘[Char]’
15:38:13	<tomsmeding>	[Leary]: karma for trying to make it too complicated :p
15:38:17	<[Leary]>	Oh, right...
15:38:29	<tomsmeding>	> foldMap (show <> const " ") (Just 3)
15:38:30	<lambdabot>	"3 "
15:38:45	<[Leary]>	True. In my defence, I was going to call it magic. But we could have that IsString instance.
15:39:49	<[Leary]>	> foldMap (\x -> show x ++ " ") Nothing ++ "something"
15:39:52	<lambdabot>	"something"
15:39:59	<tomsmeding>	@let instance IsString a => IsString (b -> a) where fromString = const . fromString
15:40:00	<lambdabot>	/sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:152:10: error:
15:40:00	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘IsString’
15:40:00	<lambdabot>	Perhaps you meant one of these:
15:40:06	<tomsmeding>	@import Data.String
15:40:06	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
15:40:11	<tomsmeding>	@let import Data.String
15:40:13	<lambdabot>	Defined.
15:40:16	<tomsmeding>	@let instance IsString a => IsString (b -> a) where fromString = const . fromString
15:40:17	<lambdabot>	Defined.
15:40:25	<tomsmeding>	> foldMap (show <> " ") (Just 3)
15:40:27	<lambdabot>	error:
15:40:27	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match expected type ‘a0 -> String’
15:40:27	<lambdabot>	with actual type ‘[Char]’
15:40:36	<[Leary]>	Hemmo: I meant that you could deal with the maybes like that, without having to expliticly match on them.
15:40:42	<tomsmeding>	meh no OverloadedStrings
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15:44:09	<Hemmo>	Cheers! I have to experiment with that now!
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17:10:37	<mildewed>	hi, a fresh haskell programmer here, I've the following problem. let's say I have a custom data type with a few constructors, each ctor takes one argument (the type of arg is not same for all ctros)
17:10:47	<mildewed>	is there general way to extract items of specific data constructor from that list?
17:11:07	<mildewed>	I can create list comprehension for each ctor but that feels a little bit silly
17:11:19	<mildewed>	I mean something like this: https://pastebin.com/ZAzPZYy0
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17:12:34	<mildewed>	or is the approach completely wrong?
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17:15:30	<[Leary]>	:t partitionEithers
17:15:31	<lambdabot>	[Either a b] -> ([a], [b])
17:15:35	<lyxia>	it's a bit fishy to not remove the constructor as well but it's not inconceivable.
17:15:58	<[Leary]>	mildewed: I suggest you write your own version of that for your datatype.
17:16:51	<lyxia>	that doesn't seem better than these getCs functions to me.
17:20:20	<mildewed>	agree, sounds that I'll end up writing the same kind of stuff with that approach
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17:21:35	<[Leary]>	It just prevents pointlessly re-traversing the list when you want more than one of the outputs.
17:22:31	<[Leary]>	And it's nice to match like (as, bs, _) = ....
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17:29:27	<mildewed>	yep, the actual end result that I'd like to achieve is to extract the specific values if the list contains those types. I know that the certain type can occur only 0 or 1 time in the list
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17:39:15	<[Leary]>	Uhh. In that case, it's something of a questionable representation. If you're the one producing the value, I would consider using something like `data Foo f a b c = Foo (f a) (f b) (f c)` with f = Maybe.
17:39:57	<[Leary]>	Then the property is in the type, and your implementation is just a pattern match.
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17:51:29	<dminuoso>	Why is it that I have to go through withForeignPtr to read/manipulate foreign objects?
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17:52:02	<dminuoso>	What the subtlety that it does, that I couldnt do with the ForeignPtr itself? (i.e. why isnt `type ForeignPtr = Ptr`)
17:52:16	<dminuoso>	Im staring at the implementation and I cant make sense of it
17:52:48	<geekosaur>	ForeignPtrs have finalizers attached, iirc. and therefore need to be kept alive with some kind of "touch" primitive so they don't get prematurely gced
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17:54:09	<geekosaur>	so withForeignPtr extracts the Ptr so you can use it, while keeping the ForeignPtr alive so it's not gced behind your back
17:54:30	<dminuoso>	Well yes, but if `type ForeignPtr = Ptr` it wouldnt be GCed behind my back
17:54:52	<geekosaur>	but then you have the problem that when it is, nothing tells the foreign side to release it
17:54:59	<geekosaur>	which is what the finalizer part is for
17:55:00	<dolio>	Yes, it could.
17:56:42	<dminuoso>	geekosaur: Alright but I think I get the idea. Thanks.
17:57:20	<dminuoso>	dolio: Care to elaborate? How could a ptr be GCed behind my back while I still have references to it?
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18:00:17	<dolio>	Because the last occurrence of the pointer in your Haskell code might not be the duration it's required to stay live for.
18:00:53	<dolio>	withForeignPtr keeps it live for the entire scope.
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18:02:04	<dminuoso>	Ah I think I understand. withForeignPtr might hand a pointer off to a foreign function, and then not reference the ptr anymore. But the foreign code could still reference it
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18:02:23	<dolio>	You might have `do foreignStuff ptr ; ... ; moreForeignStuffThatDependsOnPtr ...`
18:02:25	<dminuoso>	Right
18:02:45	<dminuoso>	Yeah that sounds very motivating to me.
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19:52:07	<maerwald>	wai is really a pain to use with transformers
19:52:41	<Bulby[m]>	your local polysemy person suggests you try polysemy 🙂
19:52:49	<EvanR>	transformer stack hell
19:52:55	<maerwald>	Bulby[m]: definitely not
19:53:29	<maerwald>	and https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-transformers-0.1.0/docs/Network-Wai-Trans.html#t:ApplicationT uses the old MonadBaseControl instead of MonadUnliftIO
19:54:18	<maerwald>	All started with this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant-rate-limit-0.2.0.0/docs/Servant-RateLimit-Types.html#v:policyGetIdentifier
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19:54:36	<maerwald>	which runs in IO instead of something MonadIO (which isn't hard per se in servant)
19:54:43	<maerwald>	but the whole wai ecosystem forces IO on you
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19:55:31	<maerwald>	Monads don't compose ;)
19:56:19	<Bulby[m]>	idk monads are composing fairly well for me
19:56:35	<maerwald>	they somehow realized this problem and guess what the README example does hence: https://github.com/mbg/wai-rate-limit#usage-with-servant
19:56:42	<maerwald>	unsafePerformIO
19:56:57	<EvanR>	o_O
19:57:22	<maerwald>	so I'm using the whole servant type stuff and then plug unsafePerformIO into my instance stack, because wai is broken
19:57:31	<maerwald>	gg
19:59:41	<EvanR>	randomly inserting unsafePerformIO to fix something is fine in this case because it's web tech
19:59:59	<Bulby[m]>	haha
20:00:08	<EvanR>	no one will realize it's weird by comparison
20:00:12	<maerwald>	right, let's put the JWK into a global variable... uhm
20:01:03	<EvanR>	"your haskell webstack has a single random unsafePerformIO? that's amazing" -- ruby stack
20:01:09	<maerwald>	I'm getting eczema
20:01:38	o	is now known as niko
20:02:09	<maerwald>	not sure if it's from wai or the radiation poisoning
20:03:16	<EvanR>	is your office located next to a nuclear plant or
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20:03:41	<maerwald>	no, but I got a hit today
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20:44:46	<Bulby[m]>	how do you do left associative operators with megaparsec? I think i accidentally made all of my operators right associative
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20:45:20	<monochrom>	chainl
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20:47:27	<Guest\|85>	hello! having trouble installing GHCup on windows 10. I ran the appropriate command in powershell [https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/] but had errors caused by failed downloads (mingw32.db, mingw64.db, ucrt64.db, clang32.db, clang64.db). did I miss a step?
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20:48:54	<Bulby[m]>	that doesn't work for megaparsec does it?
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20:51:36	<geekosaur>	don't you normally use makeExprParser, which offers an InfixR constructor?
20:51:59	<Bulby[m]>	i just found out that existed
20:52:01	<geekosaur>	(see parser-combinators_
20:52:05	<geekosaur>	)
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21:01:48	<shalokshalom>	hi
21:02:59	<geekosaur>	hi
21:04:06	<shalokshalom>	can anybody tell me how to explain my girlfriend, who is a student of mathematics, why having a time factor in a function makes it impure
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21:04:31	<shalokshalom>	in her world, t being time is completly fine for a "pure function"
21:04:41	<shalokshalom>	(all functions are pure for her, of course)
21:04:58	<monochrom>	I can't. I think it's a pure function too.
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21:05:45	<EvanR>	in math they call pure functions simply "functions", such as functions of time
21:05:58	<EvanR>	i thought you were going to say, how do I explain to her what an impure function is
21:05:59	<shalokshalom>	but isnt the time factor something that changes and gives a different return, based on when you call it
21:06:10	<shalokshalom>	yes
21:06:21	<monochrom>	Is this an XY problem?
21:06:36	<shalokshalom>	idk
21:06:50	<shalokshalom>	i am just interested in functional programming and never thought about that difference
21:06:57	<shalokshalom>	thought here is the right place to ask :)
21:07:10	<EvanR>	if time is an explicit argument it's a pure function of time
21:07:26	<EvanR>	but if it's like, an unspoken "this means whatever time is currently on the wall", it's impure
21:07:33	<shalokshalom>	i always got explained, that time being unstable means its not pure
21:07:41	<shalokshalom>	since it gives different results when called
21:08:05	<shalokshalom>	EvanR How to differ these two examples?
21:08:11	<EvanR>	what the function signature is
21:08:13	<shalokshalom>	How would the second look like in math terms
21:08:14	<EvanR>	Time -> A
21:08:18	<monochrom>	But we don't have a "time variable" in functional programming either, pure or impure.
21:08:33	<monochrom>	Nor in imperative programming.
21:08:55	<EvanR>	you do have a time variable often present in a shader program xD
21:09:13	<EvanR>	but it's more like the pure version
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21:09:33	<monochrom>	OK, we have a lot of impure programs and they are not because of time.
21:09:36	<shalokshalom>	What means Time -> A?
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21:10:43	<shalokshalom>	Like, how would << an unspoken "this means whatever time is currently on the wall" >> look like as a math formula
21:10:50	<shalokshalom>	if even applicible.
21:11:31	<EvanR>	also, "time is unstable" sounds more like quantum gravity than programming or math
21:12:02	<monochrom>	Sounds like BS to me.
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21:12:14	<EvanR>	Time -> A is a function type in haskell syntax
21:12:31	<EvanR>	if Time is a type, and A is a type, then Time -> A is a (function) type
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21:19:58	<tomsmeding>	shalokshalom: that unspoken thing would look like "get_current_time_now()"
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21:20:04	<tomsmeding>	which makes no sense in math
21:20:19	<tomsmeding>	but it makes perfect sense in C, Python, JS, Java, C#, Go, name your language
21:20:50	<tomsmeding>	but not in haskell! Or, well, in the IO monad you can, but then you can model that purely as well
21:21:33	<tomsmeding>	the real escape hatch in haskell is `unsafePerformIO :: IO a -> a`, but that "function"'s whole _intention_ is to make break the rules in some sense
21:21:42	<tomsmeding>	s/make break/break/
21:21:58	<maerwald>	tomsmeding: some people believe it's a design pattern
21:22:04	<tomsmeding>	what is?
21:22:41	<tomsmeding>	maerwald: oh I suddenly recall your wai complaint lol
21:22:43	<maerwald>	unsafePerformIO
21:22:51	<maerwald>	no, I actually mean something else
21:22:57	<maerwald>	lemme see if I can find that gem
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21:23:23	<tomsmeding>	I mean the fact that it breaks the normal rules doesn't mean that it doesn't have its uses in programming
21:23:23	<Bulby[m]>	ReaderT?
21:24:00	<tomsmeding>	you just have to leave the world of pure functions, and suddenly have to reason about the much more complicated world of the GHC RTS
21:24:18	<[Leary]>	The case where you can prove it safe with the types is pretty cool, but I think I've only seen that in ST, and once isn't a pattern.
21:24:21	<tomsmeding>	doesn't mean that it's impossible, or not sometimes (hopefully not often) the right idea
21:24:45	<geekosaur>	Debug.Trace? :þ
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21:25:08	<tomsmeding>	ST is awesome, I recently saw a paper (haven't read it) that claims to prove that the ST design is safe: the internal side-effects don't leak out of the abstraction
21:25:22	<tomsmeding>	it's a complicated paper, judging from the figures :p
21:25:45	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: Debug.Trace is Unreasonably Effective (tm)
21:25:51	<monochrom>	maerwald, is that the "var :: IORef Int; var = unsafePerformIO (newIORef 0)" pattern?
21:26:16	tomsmeding	has used that :p
21:26:43	<Bulby[m]>	i think i've used that before too
21:27:58	<tomsmeding>	oh actually not quite, just a global constant with an unsafePerformIO initialiser (reading some environment vars for config0
21:28:01	<tomsmeding>	s/0/)/
21:28:03	<romes[m]>	hello everyone, I'm going to be extending a functional programming course for 1st year CS students, but am still in the process of proposing what "lecture modules" I'll add. These modules will come after the already existing course, therefore I want to showcase some fun Haskell things (but which will still be relevant in the following years). I am looking for ideas, I'm thinking FRP might be cool, something game development related too, or
21:28:03	<romes[m]>	perhaps implementing a simple programming language
21:29:01	<tomsmeding>	romes[m]: 1st year???
21:29:13	<dminuoso>	FRP in first year CS.
21:29:19	<romes[m]>	:P
21:29:22	<dminuoso>	You seem to have an interesting notion of "fun"
21:29:27	<romes[m]>	HAHA
21:29:31	<tomsmeding>	our 2nd years wouldn't be ready for FRP at the end of the 7.5 ECTS course we're giving them
21:29:36	<tomsmeding>	like, at all
21:29:56	<tomsmeding>	(well, some might, but those are exceptions)
21:30:00	<[exa]>	(I'd also say that FRP might not really be ready for students yet)
21:30:00	<romes[m]>	Really? :) I was thinking it might be acceptable bc of some university having it in their curriculum
21:30:27	<tomsmeding>	or maybe your students are smarter than ours :p
21:30:54	<dminuoso>	[exa]: Some might way FRP might not be really ready for production either.
21:30:55	<[exa]>	romes[m]: what was the "top" contents of the course?
21:31:00	<romes[m]>	tomsmeding: Nope, I wouldn't know yet, I'll value your opinion on that
21:31:51	<dminuoso>	selectViewListWithKey_ :: (Adjustable t m, Ord k, PostBuild t m, MonadHold t m, MonadFix m) => Dynamic t k -> Dynamic t (Map k v) -> (k -> Dynamic t v -> Dynamic t Bool -> m (Event t a)) -> m (Event t k)
21:31:57	<dminuoso>	Is not my idea of a fun night
21:31:58	<tomsmeding>	O.o
21:32:11	<tomsmeding>	Dynamic O.O
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21:32:21	<romes[m]>	for reference, here was the FRP module I saw :https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/fall16/lectures/11-frp.html
21:32:21	<tomsmeding>	oh wait this is not base:Dynamic
21:32:24	<dminuoso>	Yes, Dynamic is an associated data type of this fun class:
21:32:27	<dminuoso>	class (MonadHold t (PushM t), MonadSample t (PullM t), MonadFix (PushM t), Functor (Dynamic t), Applicative (Dynamic t), Monad (Dynamic t)) => Reflex t where
21:32:29	<dminuoso>	It's all clear now!
21:32:39	<dminuoso>	No this is from reflex
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21:33:51	<romes[m]>	[exa]: think "first steps, data modelling, abstract data types, functional data structures, type-classes, functors, parsing, monads"
21:34:32	<[exa]>	romes[m]: I'd make very sure that they try out monadic parsers (just for the sake of understanding that parsing is super easy if you don't use a shit language), and lenses (and doing lensish sql atop of aeson, because they will remember it with love the next time they touch javascripts)
21:35:16	<dmj`>	does warp actually respect timeouts
21:35:16	<dminuoso>	I second parser combinators.
21:35:40	<dminuoso>	dmj`: Yes
21:35:55	<[exa]>	also pretty useful to show some networking, like, "making a telnet chatserver without suffering a stroke from the polling complexity", haskell is super easy that way. And scotty helps too
21:36:49	<dminuoso>	dmj`: Though can you specify what kind of timeouts you are looking for?
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21:38:02	<romes[m]>	[exa] dminuoso I think parser combinators are mentioned but not actually looked at, so that would be cool, but I'd hope to motivate parser combinators with a fun example, do you think writing a parser for idk something lisp-like be too much/would not motivate them for apparent complexity?
21:38:16	<[exa]>	just parse json
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21:38:47	<[exa]>	with a few simplifications (doubles) it's literally 1 slide of code, with pretty big letters
21:38:59	<dmj`>	dminuoso: just the time it takes to return from the handler, server should close the connection
21:39:23	<dminuoso>	dmj`: Use a timeout manager
21:39:26	<dminuoso>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/warp-3.0.9/docs/Network-Wai-Handler-Warp-Timeout.html
21:39:39	<romes[m]>	[exa]: simple chatserver-like networking sounds super cool! thank you
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21:40:21	<dminuoso>	dmj`: Or I think by default you have 30s timeouts
21:40:31	<dmj`>	dminuoso: in warp when I do `setTimeout 10` and in the handler `forever $ pure ()` it doesn't end the connection after 30s
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21:42:12	<romes[m]>	[exa]: * I think they might say "what the is json", and therefore not see great motivation from "see how simple we can write a json parser", while something like a PL is something more palpable to them which they definitely have no idea how to approach, but might be curious to do so
21:42:24	<dminuoso>	Well, introduce json then?
21:42:29	<romes[m]>	but I'm quite new to this so I'll take your expert word
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21:42:55	<[exa]>	romes[m]: how they survive in 2022 computing without json?
21:43:00	<dminuoso>	It seems like a motivating example. "Here's this common machine-exchange data format, lets write a parser for it"
21:43:50	<romes[m]>	dminuoso: and even more so if we can use json for said chatserver!
21:44:15	<romes[m]>	[exa]: I thiink first years will be pretty clueless about it
21:45:06	<[exa]>	I'm kinda astonished by the level of contrast between "they should do frp" and "no json" tbh, but okay :D
21:45:24	<romes[m]>	[exa]: Ahah! I was wrong about that indeed
21:45:38	<[exa]>	btw check PM, I sent you some of my stuff
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21:47:07	<dmj`>	dminuoso: lmao
21:47:36	<dmj`>	dminuoso: I thought, "just introduce json" was directed at me
21:47:49	<hpc>	make them write a yaml parser instead
21:47:59	<hpc>	they don't have to worry about all those brackets, so it should be much easier! :P
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21:49:18	<dminuoso>	YAML is hellish to parse. :(
21:49:22	<jackdk>	hpc: you are cruel
21:49:42	<romesrf>	LOL :)
21:49:49	<dminuoso>	I think parsing XML is easier.
21:50:10	<maerwald>	dminuoso: except now you also want to parse html
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21:51:02	<monochrom>	"they don't have to worry about close tags, so it should be much easier" >:)
21:52:05	<maerwald>	and enjoy script tags that may have unescaped garbage
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21:56:30	<hpc>	and cdata
21:57:01	<c_wraith>	parsing xml is easy until you get into the features like remote entities
21:57:15	<[exa]>	dminuoso: I almost got triggered by "parsing xml is easier" before I managed to comprehend you're complaining to yaml
21:57:18	<[exa]>	:D
21:57:23	<[exa]>	parsing yaml is harder than parsing c++
21:58:03	<hpc>	i would rather parse perl than yaml
21:58:11	<hpc>	at least by the end of writing the perl parser i can also run perl code
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22:12:11	<jackdk>	c_wraith: are remote entities like the outer gods in H.P. Lovecraft's writing?
22:12:37	<c_wraith>	very similar, if you're worried about security...
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23:21:41	<Bulby[m]>	with the op parsing in parser combinators, I don't quite understand how to fail in megaparsec when defining an operator...
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23:21:55	<Bulby[m]>	i'm making the assign operator and want to fail if the left hand side isn't an identifier
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23:26:16	<sm>	Bulby: fail the current parser, allowing mp to try others ? or end parsing altogether ?
23:27:47	<sm>	for the latter, I think you have to transform with ExceptT as mp doesn't have that built in
23:28:47	<Bulby[m]>	I mean, I have to do a parser of `Expr -> Expr -> Expr` because of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parser-combinators-1.3.0/docs/Control-Monad-Combinators-Expr.html
23:29:07	<Bulby[m]>	idk how i would fail iff left isn't ident
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23:31:18	<sm>	maybe just calling fail is enough ?
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23:31:55	<Bulby[m]>	calling fail inside the function makes it `Expr -> Expr -> Parser Expr`, not `Parser (Expr -> Expr -> Expr)`
23:32:27	<sm>	ah, sorry, don't know
23:32:39	<Bulby[m]>	glad to know i'm not stupid 🙂
23:33:25	<sm>	that type signature implies it may not fail, eh
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23:35:27	<sm>	this must not be the right place to enforce that more specific limitation
23:36:11	<EvanR>	i was under the impression Parser A may or may not fail, without more info
23:36:22	<EvanR>	like Maybe A
23:38:46	<sm>	Bulby isn't defining an ordinary parser, but providing a combining function to a generic parser builder provided by mp
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23:39:03	<sm>	I think
23:39:58	<sm>	(so it's not right to call that a parser)
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All times are in UTC on 2022-05-31.