Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-06-01 (liberachat/#haskell)

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06:11:52 <dibblego> @src (>>=) []
06:11:53 <lambdabot> Source not found. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
06:12:03 <dibblego> what's the syntax for that ^^ again please?
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06:14:11 <dibblego> @src [] (>>=)
06:14:11 <lambdabot> xs >>= f = concatMap f xs
06:15:38 <dibblego> @src Const mappend
06:15:38 <lambdabot> Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it.
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08:29:51 <artem> Hi! Suppose I want to have `throwError` but not `catchError` in my eDSL, so instancing MonadError isn't an option. Is there a good solution besides creating my own type class?
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08:37:55 <tomsmeding> artem: does throwError take non-String stuff?
08:39:30 <tomsmeding> dibblego: you can always look it up in the haddocks :) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/Data.Functor.Const.html#line-86
08:39:43 <tomsmeding> though inexplicably you have to go back to base-4.14 to get source?
08:40:37 <tomsmeding> oh /me is dumb, it's a deriving
08:40:52 <tomsmeding> right, but then it's the mappend on `a`
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08:48:06 <artem> tomsmeding: it does. It's parametrized by the error type
08:48:37 <artem> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mtl-2.3/docs/Control-Monad-Error-Class.html#v:throwError
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08:50:24 <tomsmeding> artem: I know throwError is parametrised. :) My point is, MonadFail exists but is hard-coded to use String. If you only use String as the error type in practice anyway, you can use the existing MonadFail.
08:50:57 <tomsmeding> if not, then there is no such class in the standard libraries in any case (there might be one in a less-used third-party library on hackage; no idea)
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08:52:06 <artem> tomsmeding: Ah, I see your point. Unfortunately, I do use throwError with non-String types
08:52:15 <artem> homegrown type class it is, it appears
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08:52:40 <artem> Oh, alternatively, actually
08:53:33 <artem> Is it possible to see the topmost "step" in a church-encoded free monad? e.g. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/free-5.1.8/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-Free-Church.html
08:54:41 <artem> It's pretty simple for the conventional free monad by just pattern matching. For the church-encoded one it seems a bit more complicated
08:57:13 <artem> Okay, I think I see how
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14:49:50 <Bulby[m]> ok, i'm awake 🙂
14:51:33 <Bulby[m]> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/XI0bhGpa
14:51:38 <Bulby[m]> this is what I tried to do
14:51:41 <Bulby[m]> but it's incorrect
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14:52:20 <Bulby[m]> it infers type type as `Expr -> (Expr -> Expr -> Expr)`
14:53:14 <Bulby[m]> wait
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14:53:24 <Bulby[m]> `Expr -> f0 (Expr -> Expr -> Expr)`
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14:55:21 <Bulby[m]> oh, idea
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15:00:14 <geekosaur> btw, tomsmeding, feature request for play-haskell: the ability to fork a snippet straight into another play instance, instead of having to go indirect via a paste
15:00:48 <geekosaur> I've wanted that at least 3 times so far, using it to show someone else something
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16:18:04 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: I already have a todo item about the ability to save the current playground contents as a new paste without leaving the playground (basically redirect from /play to /play/paste/<newly-generated/)
16:18:30 <tomsmeding> does that also address your feature request? I'm not sure I understand precisely what you mean
16:20:35 <geekosaur[m]> I mean I don't want to have to make a paste and then make a playground of it, which sounds like your todo
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16:26:28 <geekosaur> it's just saving a click but it seems kinda silly to make that detour
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16:33:19 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: I completely agree that the detour is silly
16:33:51 <tomsmeding> I'm just currently (well, whenever I'm working on it, which is precious few hours per week) focusing on making the backend better, not on improving the frontend so much
16:34:02 <tomsmeding> but keep the requests coming
16:34:21 <geekosaur> yep. but I'm already finding it useful, mostly in haskell-beginners
16:34:47 <geekosaur> seen a few others using it in here
16:35:35 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: what do you think of separating the paste and play websites wholesale, like: the only connection is that paste has playground links, and that /paste/XYZ on the playground fetches the paste content first
16:35:49 <tomsmeding> it's one server now but somehow that makes little sense
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16:36:31 <geekosaur> I've been thinking about that, mostly because of the default landing page for play-haskell being the pastebin
16:36:37 <tomsmeding> heh yes
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16:37:45 <geekosaur> I wasn't even sure the pastebins were linked
16:37:53 <tomsmeding> they aren't :p
16:37:58 <tomsmeding> completely separate things
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16:38:41 <geekosaur> that seems even sillier, although understandable especially if there's some hope of play-haskell eventually being under haskell.org
16:39:03 <tomsmeding> what seems sillier, the pastebins not being linked or splitting the backend?
16:39:14 <geekosaur> not being linked
16:39:22 <tomsmeding> hm right
16:39:39 <geekosaur> although the possibility of relocating under haskell.org then raises the question of paste.haskell.org
16:39:57 <tomsmeding> also, if this would be hosted under haskell.org at some point, it even makes little sense to let this pastebin have "Paste for #haskell" at the top
16:40:28 <geekosaur> which may possibly be harder to argue given the maintenance requirements (mostly spam) for pastebins these days
16:40:29 <tomsmeding> paste.haskell.org could be a thing maybe
16:40:33 <tomsmeding> right
16:40:47 <tomsmeding> not sure I've seen spam yet on this thing tbh, but that may be the lack of advertisement
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16:41:23 <tomsmeding> having it on haskell.org would certainly be enough to incite spam
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16:50:14 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: does the playground even need a pastebin
16:50:36 <tomsmeding> as in, an alternative idea is to just give the playground its own database and let it be a standalone thing
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16:51:16 <geekosaur> I've been thinking about that too. I mean, all it needs is a download link and it can be its own pastebin
16:51:30 <tomsmeding> just without multi-file pastes
16:51:54 <tomsmeding> I think that's actually the nicest format
16:51:55 <geekosaur> right, but that could be a future enhancement and also differentiate it from most of the other playgrounds out there
16:52:00 <tomsmeding> s/format/setup/
16:52:03 <tomsmeding> true
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16:58:57 <oats> mfw no one plugs godbolt
16:59:30 <oats> in case you need to paste, run, and inspect the assembly for your haskell :P
17:01:41 <geekosaur> play does that. and core and cmm
17:02:25 <geekosaur> not to piss on godbolt or anything but it'd be nice if we had our own dedicated playground, ideally tied to haskell.org like rust has
17:03:37 <geekosaur> (hm. wonder if stg would also be interesting, possibly in conjunction with stgi)
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17:04:08 <geekosaur> dunno if stgi is implemented enough to handle actual ghc stg though
17:04:36 tomsmeding adds cmm to the todo list
17:05:45 <geekosaur> oh,m I thought I saw it in there, I'm seeing things, sorry. of the two I think stg is probably more interesting than cmm, if you can deal with cmm you can probably do it yourself
17:06:54 <geekosaur> stg+stgi might be really nice if stgi is up to it
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17:51:34 <tomsmeding> > if you can deal with cmm you can probably do it yourself
17:51:36 <tomsmeding> true lol
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17:53:21 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: https://github.com/quchen/stgi#ghcs-current-stg sounds like stgi can't handle actual ghc stgf
17:53:24 <tomsmeding> s/stgf/stg/
17:53:52 <geekosaur> yeh, I was afraid of that
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17:54:49 <geekosaur> pity, it'd be nice to be able to show visually how a Haskell program is evaluated
17:55:02 <tomsmeding> I've been dreaming of making a tool like that for a while
17:55:23 <geekosaur> there's also ghc-vis which works at a different level
17:55:50 <geekosaur> of course the other question is whether either has a web frontend compatible with play-haskell
17:56:49 <tomsmeding> ghc-vis is nice indeed, not sure about swapping out a frontend for that indeed
17:56:59 <tomsmeding> I'm not really planning to reach for ghcjs personally
17:57:26 <geekosaur> I figured not
17:57:36 <geekosaur> that's why I said "compatible with"
17:58:13 <tomsmeding> :)
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18:18:36 <Bulby[m]> what is stg
18:19:08 <geekosaur> "spineless tagless g-machine", the graph reduction engine used by the ghc runtime
18:19:28 <Bulby[m]> 😲
18:19:41 <Bulby[m]> not even going to try to understand that
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18:26:32 <slack1256> The fourmolu package recomends that I install it with the old cabal commands ie: cabal install fourmolu. Given that cabal is not a package manager, what is the current way to do that?
18:26:40 <geekosaur> lazy evaluation can't be done in the usual straightforward manner used by imperative code; it's done by graph reduction instead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_reduction
18:26:58 <geekosaur> stg is how ghc's runtime does graph reduction and therefore lazy evaluation
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18:27:33 <geekosaur> stgi is na interactive stg interpreter that can be used to see how lazy evaluation works
18:27:39 <geekosaur> (it's on hackage)
18:28:35 <geekosaur> slack1256, that works fine
18:28:38 <sclv> slack1256: you can still "cabal install" executables
18:28:51 <geekosaur> it'll build it and drop a symlink (or copy if so configured) into ~/.cabal/bin
18:29:41 <slack1256> Oh, I thought it was deprecated given the existence of v2- or new- commands.
18:30:17 <geekosaur> installing executables is still meaningful
18:30:35 <geekosaur> it'd be pretty sad if you had to `cabal run` random cabal-installed executables
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18:33:10 <slack1256> I think there is a minor gotcha with `cabal install fourmolu`, we better not run on when the CWD is on another haskell proyect. Cabal will try to resolve both targets.
18:33:49 <geekosaur> yes, it's best to install unrelated-to-a-project stuff from ~
18:34:03 <geekosaur> maybe there should be an option (or maybe there is)
18:34:33 <EvanR> Bulby[m], learning the weird way haskell is implemented is one of the great parts of haskell. "It has to be done like C" gets old xD
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18:38:20 <romes[m]> What does "<command line>: cannot satisfy -package simple-plugin" mean?
18:39:09 <slack1256> romes[m]: What were you doing?
18:40:04 <romes[m]> running plugin tests on ghc, but I thought the error message might mean something outside of the ghc context
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18:48:08 <geekosaur> it's expecting to find the plugin in a package, and hasn't found the package
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19:15:30 <sonny> how does haskell seperate arguments?
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19:17:54 <yushyin> with space
19:19:36 <geekosaur> instead of f(a,b,c) we say f a b c
19:19:50 <sonny> ok say you have a function like \x y -> x + y. If you use arguments that are complex expressions how does it figure out what the parameters are? add 50-3 4-5 vs add 50 -3 4 -5.
19:20:34 <geekosaur> unary minus is a wart in the default language, you have to use parentheses (add 50 (-3) 4 (-5))
19:21:06 <geekosaur> in ghc 9.2 there's a NumericLiterals extension such that the spacing you used will be understood as you expect
19:21:19 <sonny> damn
19:21:22 <geekosaur> with the downside that you have to use spaces everywhere else (x - 4, not x-4)
19:22:00 <sonny> so on a parsing level, you could solve that if you had another symbol for unary minus?
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19:22:09 <geekosaur> yes, and some languages do that
19:22:26 <darkling> That leads to a follow-on question: You can create a partially applied function (+3); is the equivalent (-3) not actually the same kind of thing?
19:22:26 <geekosaur> I've seen a language I'm not recalling off the top of my head that used ~ for unary minus
19:22:36 <geekosaur> it's not
19:22:46 <geekosaur> you have to express it as a lambda or use `subtract`
19:22:53 <darkling> Good to know, thanks.
19:23:17 <sonny> would it be better defined this way?
19:24:34 <yushyin> https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/negative_literals.html for reference
19:25:17 <geekosaur> I don't think there's any non-sucky way to deal with it
19:25:49 <sonny> ok
19:25:53 <EvanR> "Hands-On Functional Programming in Rust" waht...
19:25:57 <geekosaur> unary minus is a wart in every language; how much of a wart depends on the language
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19:26:22 <EvanR> accountants are way ahead of you
19:26:41 <darkling> On the few occasions I've written a language parser, It's always been the bit I don't look at too hard and pray that the compiler compiler will do the right thing. :)
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19:28:00 <yushyin> tbh, LexicalNegation does an ok job.
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19:56:19 <sm> \
19:56:20 <sm> =-1
19:56:30 <sm> \987654
19:59:36 <sm> yikes what's going on there, sorry
19:59:46 <sm> begone poltergeist
20:00:27 <dsal> numberwang
20:03:56 <sm> in today's news.. Tweag acquired by random unknown company.. hmm
20:06:01 <sm> "Modus Create also has a long history of open source community contributions and continues to publish projects with their Modus Labs initiative.".. ok then
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20:14:43 <tomsmeding> hm, I would expect the tweag.io page to say something about this
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20:16:55 <Bulby[m]> is there a easy to read (i.e. not a research paper) thing on spineless tagless g-machine
20:17:17 <tomsmeding> Bulby[m]: try the https://github.com/quchen/stgi#ghcs-current-stg readme
20:18:02 <tomsmeding> Bulby[m]: mind the "GHC's current STG" section at the end; not sure how large the difference is
20:18:21 <tomsmeding> but it sounds like it should be fairly similar
20:19:26 <tomsmeding> oh I tag-linked the final section, I meant the whole readme lol, sorry
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20:34:55 <geekosaur> Bulby[m], that was why I linked the wikipedia page on graph reduction. as stg is about optimizing graph reduction for real hardware, pretty much any paper on it goes into fine details of machine representations, registers, and such
20:35:10 <geekosaur> and less about "why would you want this?"
20:36:03 <Bulby[m]> graph reduction is abstract, stg is more concrete
20:36:35 <geekosaur> even the stgi stuff talks about concrete details of stuff that is more about optimization, e.g. update frames
20:37:20 <geekosaur> ideally you don't care much about the concrete at this level because it's necessarily at close to hardware level
20:38:06 <geekosaur> (there's even hardware that runs stg directly, although not in production use e.g. reduceron)
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20:38:34 <energizer> is there a language where expressions aren't evaluated by default, eg `x = 1+1; print x` gives `1+1`?
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20:39:16 <tomsmeding> not evaluating _anything_ by default not sure, but Mathematica gets pretty far
20:40:20 <darkling> Yeah, you tend to need to tell it to do something with the expression (which might be evaluation, or it might be, say, integration w.r.t. a variable)
20:40:47 <geekosaur> the problem with such a language is:P what tells it to evaluate the evaluator?
20:41:06 <geekosaur> s/P//
20:41:29 <tomsmeding> Mathematica allows `Hold[1+1]` which stops evaluation
20:41:37 <geekosaur> even symbolic math systems tend to evaluate simple expressions
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20:42:09 <geekosaur> i.e. `x+3` might not be evaluated immediately but `5+3` would be
20:43:28 <monochrom> CAS'es are much smarter than evaluation. Or at least looks like smarter.
20:45:17 <monochrom> Hypothetically you could create your own CAS that leaves 1+1 alone even when printed, but it would have no market.
20:45:51 <geekosaur> ^
20:46:00 <tomsmeding> energizer: why are you asking? :)
20:46:13 <monochrom> People on the CAS market will want both 1+1 and "(integral of 1 dx from 0 to 1) + sin (pi/2)" to be simplified to 2 automatically.
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20:47:31 <energizer> tomsmeding: just curious i guess
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20:52:59 <energizer> i guess Hold[...] is like (quote ...)
20:53:17 <tomsmeding> kind of?
20:53:24 <energizer> how not?
20:53:34 <tomsmeding> well, not really, because (quote) produces an AST of its argument
20:53:57 <energizer> what does Hold produce if not an ast?
20:53:57 <tomsmeding> Mathematica is a term rewriting language, not a language based on beta-reduction (standard lambda calculus-like evaluation)
20:54:04 <tomsmeding> everything is an AST always
20:54:16 <tomsmeding> ASTs are just sometimes automatically simplified
20:54:17 <tomsmeding> Hold stops that
20:54:41 <tomsmeding> you can write `a+a` in Mathematica, and if `a` hasn't been defined yet, that just stays as-is
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20:55:04 <tomsmeding> and there are other "functions" to inspect expressions in Mma, and they will work on that a+a
20:55:14 <tomsmeding> so without Hold, you still somehow got an AST
20:56:06 <tomsmeding> `a+a /. a -> 1` (if I remember the syntax correctly) simplifies to `1+1`, which simplies to `2`
20:56:19 <tomsmeding> that's a rewrite rule applied to an expression, not a substitution
20:56:33 <tomsmeding> IIRC you can also `a+a /. a+a -> 3` and it will result in 3
20:57:30 <tomsmeding> yep remembered correctly
20:57:42 <tomsmeding> (I lied about `a+a` not simplifying; it simplifies to `2 a`)
20:58:24 <energizer> i see
20:58:39 <tomsmeding> from a CAS perspective the evaluation model of Mma makes sense, but it's really fundamentally different from lambda calculus / haskell, even if one can _simulate_ beta-reduction quite well in it
21:01:41 <tomsmeding> the fact that Mma's rewriting is scoping-aware allows you to recover beta-reduction in it :)
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21:06:56 <monochrom> Hold is like Lazy ML's "suspend".
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21:07:43 <monochrom> Or in general in a language the opposite of Haskell, eager by default, but you can add laziness annotations.
21:08:05 <monochrom> Haskell is lazy by default, but you can add eagerness annotations.
21:08:13 <Bulby[m]> so back to my conditional parser
21:08:15 <Bulby[m]> sorry
21:08:59 <Bulby[m]> could I somehow convert an `(LxExpr -> LxExpr -> LoxParser LxExpr)` to a `LoxParser (LxExpr -> LxExpr -> LxExpr)`
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21:09:51 <monochrom> Not unless LoxParser is desgined to support it.
21:09:51 <Bulby[m]> given LoxParser is a monad
21:10:00 <monochrom> This is not a monad operation.
21:10:16 <tomsmeding> monochrom: I bet Lazy ML cannot do the [13] line in this :) https://tomsmeding.com/ss/get/tomsmeding/yyLM4B
21:10:18 <Bulby[m]> it's a megaparsec parser...
21:10:19 <Bulby[m]> ok, let me fully explain
21:10:26 <Bulby[m]> I only truly need the first argument
21:10:32 <monochrom> Either that, or the actual "(LxExpr -> LxExpr -> LoxParser LxExpr)" value is trivial.
21:10:59 <Bulby[m]> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parser-combinators-1.3.0/docs/Control-Monad-Combinators-Expr.html
21:11:06 <Bulby[m]> using InfixR here
21:11:21 <tomsmeding> Bulby[m]: how did you make that `(LxExpr -> LxExpr -> LoxParser LxExpr)`
21:12:08 <monochrom> tomsmeding: Right, but that's orthogonal to laziness. That's another aspect of CAS, that you can inspect the AST of expressions.
21:12:10 <tomsmeding> as monochrom said, you cannot do this in general, but in certain specific cases you can, depending on what function this is exactly
21:12:18 <tomsmeding> monochrom: true
21:12:18 <Bulby[m]> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/66dFNI5n
21:13:03 <Bulby[m]> oops, wrong thing
21:13:04 <Bulby[m]> that was a newer attempt
21:13:04 <Bulby[m]> inshort, I need the first argument to check if it's bad
21:13:09 <Bulby[m]> i.e. not an identifir
21:13:12 <Bulby[m]> * i.e. not an identifier
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21:13:56 <tomsmeding> Bulby[m]: assuming that version is wrong, what is the error you get?
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21:14:12 <monochrom> Sacrilegeously, the first pattern matching I learned was from Mathematica, not functional languages. >:)
21:14:40 <monochrom> OK I lied, the first pattern matching I learned was from Prolog, but I wasn't very fond of Prolog.
21:14:44 <tomsmeding> pattern matching in a term rewriting language is even more powerful than in a functional language :p
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21:15:28 <Bulby[m]> can't match `LoxParser (LxExpr -> LxExpr -> LxExpr)` with `LxExpr -> f0 (LxExpr -> LxExpr -> LxExpr)`
21:16:19 <tomsmeding> in what expression
21:16:30 <Bulby[m]> in that case statement
21:16:41 <tomsmeding> what's the type of lxassign
21:16:53 <Bulby[m]> LoxParser () iirc
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21:17:17 <Bulby[m]> i don't paticularly want to solve this code
21:17:28 <tomsmeding> oh now I get your issue
21:17:37 <tomsmeding> you cannot do what you want with InfixR
21:17:57 <tomsmeding> the whole point of the `m (a -> a -> a)` type is that the argument to InfixR _cannot_ inspect the arguments to the infix operator
21:18:19 <Bulby[m]> 😭
21:18:36 <tomsmeding> otherwise it would be ~impossible to implement makeExprParser
21:18:47 <Bulby[m]> then how do I stop invalid code?
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21:19:16 <tomsmeding> the assignment operator really an infix operator in an expression? Or is `a = expression` a _statement_ form in Lox? I don't remember well
21:19:26 <tomsmeding> like, can you write `a = (b = 42) + 1`
21:19:42 <Bulby[m]> it's an expression, yea
21:20:35 <tomsmeding> (ew)
21:20:35 <geekosaur> C has lvalue expressions too
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21:21:02 <geekosaur> and accepts that syntax
21:21:19 <tomsmeding> yes I know C :p
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21:23:56 <tomsmeding> Bulby[m]: I was lying, what you want could perfectly well be implemented in makeExprParser, it just isn't
21:24:13 <Bulby[m]> 😠
21:24:27 <tomsmeding> the `return` here in pInfixR is your issue I think https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parser-combinators-1.3.0/docs/src/Control.Monad.Combinators.Expr.html#pInfixR
21:24:35 <tomsmeding> (the last `return`)
21:25:40 <tomsmeding> so you have two options: 1. check validity of the parsed AST after makeExprParser is done, or 2. reimplement makeExprParser yourself
21:26:04 <Bulby[m]> ☹️
21:26:11 <Bulby[m]> both not nice options
21:26:13 <tomsmeding> option (2) is less scary than it sounds, but it's still a bit of work (meet your new friend `chainl`)
21:26:25 <Bulby[m]> NO NOT CHAINL AGAIN
21:26:29 <tomsmeding> lol
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21:26:44 <Bulby[m]> i thought chainl didn't work on megaparsec?
21:27:23 <tomsmeding> bloody megaparsec I always get confused with its delegation of operations to other modules
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21:28:15 <tomsmeding> oh parsec's chainl is limited in the same way as makeExprParser is lol
21:28:18 <tomsmeding> but you can reimplement it!
21:29:04 <tomsmeding> check chainl and chainl1 here, and see if you can make it slightly more general https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsec-3.1.14.0/docs/src/Text.Parsec.Combinator.html#line-191
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21:33:08 <monochrom> The reason of "Parser (E -> E -> E)" is because for example `char '+' *> pure (+) <|> char '*' *> pure (*)`
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21:34:47 <monochrom> OK chainl is in parser-combinators but it works.
21:34:50 <geekosaur> hm. can't you check this in the resulting AST instead of in the parser?
21:35:10 <Bulby[m]> what if the AST is fairly large?
21:35:59 <geekosaur> you presumably need to be able to find assignment operators in the AST at some point anyway, likely during generation of that AST
21:36:25 <Bulby[m]> ... why would i?
21:36:37 <monochrom> I see, nevermind, chainl is not in parser-combinator either, at least not by that name.
21:36:41 <geekosaur> uh?
21:37:03 <geekosaur> you are generating an AST, right? you have access at that point if nothing else
21:37:15 <monochrom> I guess it really wants us to just use makeExprParser.
21:37:26 <geekosaur> but I'd also expect either interpretation or code generation from that AST
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21:37:45 <Bulby[m]> interpretation yes
21:37:59 <geekosaur> so you should have two points at which you are passing through an op=assign node, either creation or interpretation
21:38:01 <monochrom> But it's the same principle. Your operator parser is Parser (E -> E -> E) because it parses an operator, not an expression.
21:38:30 <geekosaur> and you can validate its left parameter is an identifier, or for more general languages an lvalue of some kind
21:38:43 <Bulby[m]> interpretation would make it a runtime error ☹️
21:38:55 <geekosaur> where another assignment is trivially an lvalue
21:39:42 <geekosaur> are you separating AST generation and interpretation? if so, you are effectively compiling. if not, the difference between compile and run time is effectively nonexistent
21:40:01 <monochrom> If you're trying to parse an assignment statement of the form "var = expr", you use makeExprParser for the expr part, not for the whole thing.
21:40:19 <Bulby[m]> ... lox has explicit var declarations
21:40:40 <monochrom> The whole thing is trivially: 1. insist on parsing a var; 2. insist on parsing the = operator; 3. now you can parse an arbitrary expression.
21:41:14 <geekosaur> and you still haven't answered why you can't do this while *building* the AST
21:41:32 <Bulby[m]> because it's all inside of the parser monad?
21:41:32 <geekosaur> which is when I'd do it
21:41:49 <Bulby[m]> hm...
21:41:54 <Bulby[m]> i could just check it
21:41:57 <Bulby[m]> may as well try
21:42:44 <geekosaur> the parser monad has no clue about creating ASTs. you need to add code to it to do that, in which you should have access to the parameters to op=assign
21:43:32 <geekosaur> left to itself a parser monad will tell you whether it parsed or not, it will not generate an AST
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21:48:39 <geekosaur> (consider that Parser has no clue what additional information you want attached to AST nodes, for the purposes of interpretation or optimization or etc.)
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21:49:53 <Bulby[m]> well, my parser is a parser of expressions
21:50:11 <monochrom> pure (Plus (Var "x") (Var "y"))
21:51:15 <monochrom> I wrote this for Parsec but the basics are the same, and it sounds like you lack the basics: https://wiki.haskell.org/Parsing_expressions_and_statements
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21:52:16 <Bulby[m]> my parser _was_ working until I realized "oops, all right associative"
21:53:03 <monochrom> Sure.
21:53:45 <monochrom> My sum-up-the-list algorithm "was working" until I realized "oops, it doesn't handle lists longer than 3 elements".
21:53:49 <monochrom> "working"
21:53:59 <Bulby[m]> right 🙂
21:54:12 <monochrom> I saw first-years students saying "my code works but it doesn't pass your test cases".
21:54:16 <monochrom> "works"
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21:55:18 <monochrom> When something like that happens, you know that there is 99% chance you can't just minor-patch the code, its whole structure and approach and premise is wrong in the first place, you have to go back to square one.
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21:55:50 <Bulby[m]> ... which is why I am now using makeExprParser
21:56:02 <maerwald> monochrom: "it works on my machine" was the response of a fellow student working with me in a group on a C project after I told him his C code is broken (as per the standard and the debugger) and works only by accident
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21:57:06 <monochrom> I think I saw shell scripts and C programs making syscalls working on mac but break on Linux, too.
21:57:55 <monochrom> I am not certain but my current theory is that, I test student shell scripts with "sh foo", and on mac "sh" means bash.
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21:58:42 <geekosaur[m]> Zsh in recent versions
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21:59:04 <monochrom> There is also a fringe theory that mac accepts exec("prog", "arg", NULL) whereas real unixes insist on exec("prog", "prog again", "arg", NULL).
21:59:25 <monochrom> s/exec/execlp/ or something
22:00:33 <monochrom> I now include in my course policy "marking dispute is resolved on the school server, 'my code works elsewhere' is not a reason to earn marks".
22:00:42 <geekosaur[m]> Macs have some perverse behavior but that's not one
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22:01:14 <geekosaur[m]> Division by zero returns zero, for one
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22:01:57 <monochrom> OK good to hear mac doesn't pervertify exec*
22:03:07 <monochrom> I had students handing in exec("prog", "arg", NULL) and claiming that it passed sample test cases I provided on mac.
22:03:30 <monochrom> (My sample test cases, though simple, would have caught that kind of omissions.)
22:04:21 <monochrom> To be sure I hadn't check it myself. I don't know how much to trust students' testimonies.
22:04:41 <EvanR> there's a possible interpretation of the syntax of my code where it gives the right answer
22:05:05 <monochrom> But now it doesn't matter because I already have "policy: it breaks on school's linux server, EOL"
22:05:35 <monochrom> OK I'll stop. Back to Haskell.
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22:07:28 <monochrom> I gave a Haskell homework that requires students to implement some "at :: FooContainer a -> Integer -> a". Some students tried "foo c n = if c==Empty then ..." and ran into type errors.
22:08:37 <EvanR> the ontological difference between equality testing and case analyzing
22:09:00 <EvanR> subtle*
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22:11:40 <darkling> I had a fun one once, where the code perfectly implemented a sort of the test case... by hard-coding a specific permutation of the input.
22:12:13 <darkling> I mean, they'd got all the right swaps in place to make it look like a bubblesort, but it didn't sort any *other* list of numbers.
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22:17:39 <EvanR> int rand(){ return 7; }
22:17:45 <monochrom> That sounds like written by an artificial neural network or some other kind of maching learning :)
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22:18:30 <darkling> That was over 20 years ago. We didn't have that kind of fail back then. :)
22:19:52 <darkling> I think it was a genuine (student <---------------- 150km ---------------> clue) situation
22:20:19 <monochrom> Indistinguishable from machine learning. >:)
22:21:10 <darkling> The neural nets are still slightly larger
22:21:19 <monochrom> Both humans and machine learning can look for patterns in the wrong places in very similar ways.
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22:23:47 <EvanR> picard tried to argue for data's sovereignty by calling humans machines. Luckily that didn't backfire
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22:24:53 <EvanR> i.e. starfleet didn't respond by enslaving everyone
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22:26:56 <monochrom> heh
22:29:56 <shapr> acowley: is there a data cleaning tutorial for Frames?
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All times are in UTC on 2022-06-01.