Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-06-09 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:58:31 <tnkmon> a good book to start in haskell??
01:02:04 <geekosaur> @where books
01:02:04 <lambdabot> https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html, see also @where LYAH, RWH, YAHT, HFTVB, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, HTAC, TwT, FoP,
01:02:04 <lambdabot> FSAF
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01:18:41 <EvanR> @where intro
01:18:41 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Learn_Haskell_in_10_minutes
01:18:47 <EvanR> @where gentle
01:18:48 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/
01:19:02 <EvanR> this one this one
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02:21:18 <DigitalKiwi> tomsmeding: piiiing
02:23:55 <DigitalKiwi> https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/2022-06-08-212240_1454x1373_scrot.png
02:25:59 <DigitalKiwi> https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/2022-06-08-212549_2313x1745_scrot.png
02:26:02 <DigitalKiwi> other side
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02:34:39 <DigitalKiwi> hmm do i 3d print it or laser cut it ;D
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05:53:03 <Guest34> Good day
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05:58:28 <DigitalKiwi> hi Guest34
05:58:58 <Guest34> I am using library odpic-raw to access oracle database
05:59:18 <Guest34> main :: IO ()
05:59:19 <Guest34> main = do
05:59:19 <Guest34>   withContext $ \ctx ->
05:59:20 <Guest34>     withPool ctx cfg return \pool ->
05:59:20 <Guest34>       withPoolConnection pool $ \conn ->
05:59:21 <Guest34>         withStatement conn False "select name from db.report_date where id = 1" $ \st -> do
05:59:21 <Guest34>           r <- executeStatement st ModeExecDefault
05:59:22 <Guest34>           f <- fetch st
05:59:22 <Guest34>           (DataVarchar v) <- getQueryValue st 1
05:59:23 <Guest34>           peekCStringLen (bytes v) >>= print
05:59:27 <DigitalKiwi> oh no
05:59:36 <Guest34> ?
05:59:49 <nerdypepper> x_x
06:00:02 <Guest34> i can't ask?
06:00:13 <nerdypepper> Guest34: please upload your source code in a pastebin service and paste a link to that here
06:00:21 <Guest34> sorry
06:00:22 <Guest34> ok
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06:01:14 <nerdypepper> Guest34: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ or similar
06:02:20 <Guest34> https://pastebin.com/t093XNLk
06:03:45 <Guest34> NLS_LANG is AMERICAN.AMERICA=UTF8
06:04:28 <Guest34> from plsql i get normal string "Январь 2022"
06:05:14 <Guest34> haskell code get me "\1071\1085\1074\1072\1088\1100 2022"
06:06:12 <Guest34> can you suggest what is the problem?
06:07:26 <Axman6> > text "\1071\1085\1074\1072\1088\1100 2022"
06:07:27 <lambdabot> Январь 2022
06:07:49 <Axman6> that's just what the show instance for strings does for non ascii codepoints
06:08:20 <Axman6> that _is_ the string you are expecting to get back, if you run putStrLn "\1071\1085\1074\1072\1088\1100 2022" in ghci you'll see if prints exactly that
06:09:40 <Axman6> because you are caling print, show is applied to the string, use putStrLn instead
06:09:55 <Axman6> peekCStringLen (bytes v) >>= putStrLn is the fix
06:10:20 <Axman6> @src print
06:10:21 <lambdabot> print x = putStrLn (show x)
06:11:10 <Hecate> @src fix
06:11:10 <lambdabot> fix f = let x = f x in x
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06:11:40 <Hecate> Guest34: unfortunately there is no problem
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06:12:59 <Guest34> thanks for the help
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06:13:20 <Axman6> first time I've ever seen anyone connect to Oracle
06:15:47 <Guest34> i started learning Haskell. trying to write a web api for old software with oracle db
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06:17:27 <Axman6> Good luck!
06:18:00 <Axman6> the web API side of things is quite nice in Haskell, no idea how much your milage will vary working with Oracle though
06:18:08 <Guest34> Thanks!
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07:18:25 <toluene> edwardk, mniip asks how are you
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07:48:16 <Guillaum[m]> I'm surprised that `-Wredundant-constraint` warning does not trigger a warning in the following code: `type EqOrd a = (Eq a, Ord a); buz'' :: EqOrd a => a -> Bool; buz'' i = i == i`. I understand that the redundant constraint is bundled inside a type alias, but is there a way to trigger a warning? Should I open a ticket?
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08:40:36 <thornAvery> hello, im setting up Stack with Nix integration, and im wondering if theres a way to use a flakes defined shell with the --nix-shell-file flag?
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08:57:28 <Benzi-Junior> http://ix.io/3ZKI < so I took the advice to pattern match on the construction of my agents, consuming only the "agent" part but when I test it, it appears to do nothing
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09:26:37 <[Leary]> Benzi-Junior: Have you read the 'Terminating the program' section in the Control.Concurrent docs? Your main thread is probably finishing and killing the children before they can do anything.
09:29:43 <[Leary]> `atoms` also seems to be ignoring the next action in sequence, when you probably want it to recurse.
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10:04:46 <Benzi-Junior> [Leary], aye I fixed the recursion issue (to an extent) and am looking into the "Terminating the program" thing
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10:06:25 <Benzi-Junior> well my testing isn't done in a "standalone GHC program" but rather with ghci
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10:13:22 <Benzi-Junior> [Leary], you are however right
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10:14:13 <Benzi-Junior> adding a simple threadDelay onto the main thread of the function was sufficient to get a little bit of output
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10:23:43 <SCombinator> Heya fellas
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10:24:55 <SCombinator> i'm trying out the haskell extension in VSCode and it seems like this thing is actually downloading its own copy of GHC, HLS, stack, & cabal for every project I open
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10:25:38 <SCombinator> My projects are managed by stack so I don't see why this should be necessary
10:28:41 <fendor[m]> SCombinator: It should only download these once, but you can disable downloading for cabal and ghc, iirc
10:29:23 <fendor[m]> however, you will have to make sure on your own that your HLS binary is compiled with exactly the same GHC version you are using with stack
10:29:54 <fendor[m]> see https://github.com/haskell/vscode-haskell#setting-a-specific-toolchain for details
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10:58:55 <SCombinator> fendor[m] thanks for the pointer
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11:01:04 <SCombinator> :/  why is haskell tooling so complicated...
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11:01:23 <SCombinator> so many layers just to get a working dev environment lol
11:01:50 <SCombinator> is stack still the way to go for reproducible builds?
11:02:27 <SCombinator> and just wondering, should I prefer package.yaml or just manage my .cabal directly?
11:02:43 <SCombinator> this is for a small project of 3 people
11:03:09 <sm> if you're already used to it, I'd say yes. Keep your package.yaml if it's providing value, otherwise just edit .cabal directly
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11:04:04 <sm> you might want to disable stack's ghc-installing and use ghcup for that
11:05:28 <sm> unless it's working just fine
11:05:44 <jackdk> I do not use stack or hpack (package.yaml) and do not miss anything they claim to provide *shrug*
11:06:12 <SCombinator> sm: wow lol i feel kinda stupid that I didn't think of forcing stack to use the ghcup installs
11:06:53 <sm> add use-system-ghc: true and install-ghc: false in ~/.stack/config.yaml, IIRC
11:07:56 <SCombinator> jackdk: oh wow...i just stuck to stack by habit because they forced it down our throats back when I was in uni...maybe i'll try the ghc+cabal approach again
11:08:11 <SCombinator> sm: thanks for the help! much appreciated
11:08:59 <jackdk> I think stack a) forced cabal to get a lot better and b) solved some very real problems at the time, but I don't find it compelling these days. Not when you can use cabal.project.freeze files
11:09:08 <sm> np. Lots of people like stack, lots of people don't like it. It is still easier than cabal for reproducibility.
11:09:37 <jackdk> Similarly, hpack: newer versions of the cabal file format let you DRY up large cabal files
11:09:52 <jackdk> I generally use nix for reproducibility
11:11:41 <SCombinator> jackdk: i'm realizing how little i know about cabal haha
11:11:57 <maerwald> sm: how so?
11:12:36 <SCombinator> jackdk: i've heard of nix but it honestly looks like another intimidating package manager for my already overpopulated system...is it worth it?
11:12:38 <sm> oh I don't have time for this debate yet again, I'm sorry :) got to eat
11:12:52 <maerwald> stack is harder for reproducibility
11:13:10 <maerwald> because it doesn't have a resolver, you're forced to a predefined set of packages
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11:13:25 <maerwald> cabal has a resolver and supports stackage
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11:15:16 <jackdk> SCombinator: nix is incredible but the learning curve is quite steep (but slowly improving). I put a lot of effort into learning NixOS when I started a previous job, because they weren't expecting me to be productive for a little while. I think if you're just starting to learn Haskell, stick with that. Nix is good for heaps of stuff but can come later.
11:15:35 <sm> I'll just say: stack introduced the term resolver, meaning a snapshot of compatible packages. cabal has a constraint solver, which is free to find any plan it can on a given day. This is a useful tool at times but it is the enemy of reproducibility.
11:16:02 <maerwald> sm: the term resolver is a joke even, because it doesn't have one ;)
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11:17:18 <maerwald> sm: you're aware cabal can freeze a resolution?
11:17:24 <maerwald> how's that the enemy of reproducibility
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11:19:09 <maerwald> in fact "reproducible" is pretty orthogonal to "curated package set"
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11:22:41 <maerwald> SCombinator: no it's not worth it, unless you have very specific needs. And even then there are usually alternatives
11:22:44 <tdammers> a curated package set is one way you can achieve reproducible builds (or at least part of a strategy)
11:24:05 <maerwald> tdammers: well, a curated package set can be rolling, so...
11:24:11 <yushyin> but then you need a package that is not on stackage and you resort to hackage ...
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11:24:27 <mehlon> good day
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11:25:00 <maerwald> in fact that's what e.g. gentoo does: the stable branch *is curated*, but it's also rolling
11:29:46 <mehlon> so I am running a mapM_ function list but I think it stops running through the list when it hits an error, is there a way I can ignore the errors?
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11:39:28 <tdammers> maerwald: right, you still need pinning
11:39:47 <tdammers> advantage of the curated package set is that you can just pin to a specific version of the entire package set
11:39:59 <maerwald> yeah... but tbf... stack does have better pinning. The old hackage revision debate
11:40:37 <maerwald> with cabal you pin the entire index state, not specific revisions
11:40:48 <maerwald> that doesn't make it less reproducible though
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11:46:06 <mehlon> alright I figured it out, I just added a 'try' from Control.Exception to each function call
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12:00:33 <Benzi-Junior> http://ix.io/3ZL9 ignoring my issue with waiting for the threads to finish for now, when I run "runIO [ping,pong]" it doesn't seem to pass back and forth, I only get a single "Ping"
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12:03:49 <jackdk> maerwald: cabal freeze generates cabal.project.freeze - doesn't that get you specific package version pins?
12:04:09 <maerwald> jackdk: yes, but not *revisions*
12:04:28 <maerwald> https://github.com/haskell-infra/hackage-trustees/blob/master/revisions-information.md
12:04:42 <maerwald> they're a wart
12:05:00 <maerwald> reverse fixing stuff is almost always the wrong approach
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12:09:43 <maerwald> it would already help if PVP was revision aware, but
12:10:04 <maerwald> now they're an infrastructure specific thing
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12:13:27 <Benzi-Junior> I suspect the issue is with my implementation of receive
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12:20:48 <Benzi-Junior> huh
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12:21:40 <Benzi-Junior> turns out I have a race condition problem
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12:24:57 <Benzi-Junior> somehow each thread isn't keeping balance between sending and receiving
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12:37:02 <Benzi-Junior> so I'm ending with both threads waiting for something to eb put into the channel
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13:20:15 <tdammers> maerwald: yeah, the thing revisions do, that's actually what the 4th part of a PVP version number would be perfect for
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13:21:46 <maerwald> tdammers: I prefer -rX, because tools will treat those different from other version components
13:22:17 <maerwald> if you request 3.0.0 it's supposed to pick the one with the highest revision
13:22:37 <maerwald> can be a little confusing this exception
13:24:31 <maerwald> and there's also a quirk in PVP wrt 3.0.0 vs 3.0.0.0
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13:26:03 <maerwald> well, not quirk, but https://github.com/haskell/pvp/issues/36
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14:13:56 <oats> https://haskle.net/
14:13:58 <oats> this is delightful
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14:26:46 <Benzi-Junior> can anyone see how my code is running into a race condition http://ix.io/3ZL9
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14:29:19 <Benzi-Junior> the problem has to be with my application of "atomically" because I'm ending up with an empty TChan and both threads trying to read from it
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14:31:35 <geekosaur> can't tell about that but I see you got caught by threadDelay being in microseconds; you're delaying for 10ms instead of 1s
14:31:47 <geekosaur> (maybe you intended that and the comments are wrong?)
14:33:26 <Benzi-Junior> geekosaur, ye the intervals for threadDelay are all just, what was convenient for testing
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14:36:18 <geekosaur> aside from that, I think you might have a misunderstanding of TChan
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14:37:32 <[Leary]> It might help to broadcast before the delay. Or to peek or unget values you didn't want. Or both.
14:38:54 <geekosaur> if the ping agent receives its own message, the pong agent won't receive it, and vice versa. there are broadcast channels that work that way but you seem to be using an ordinary TChan
14:39:12 <geekosaur> there's a broadcast TChan in the smae place but note how you have to use it
14:39:26 <geekosaur> (also there's no …IO version)
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14:49:15 <BusConscious> When writing my unix shell, should I parse directly into a IO monad (ShellEnv monad transformer on IO to be precise) instead of an AST?
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14:49:54 <BusConscious> I could have all the benefits of having IO and parsing being seperated, while not having to recursively traverse an AST
14:50:23 <BusConscious> As a Haskell newcomer this legitimately blows my mind rn
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14:59:25 <BusConscious> What would be the downsides to that approach? My monad being less comprohensible than an AST?
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15:05:27 <lortabac> BusConscious: what do you mean by "parsing into an IO monad"? parsing the shell commands into IO actions without an intermediate data type?
15:06:10 <BusConscious> yes precisely
15:06:50 <lortabac> an intermediate structure allows you to introspect and/or optimize the commands
15:07:02 <lortabac> and it's probably easier to work with
15:07:24 <lortabac> but of course it depends on what exactly you are doing
15:08:11 <BusConscious> ok you can do some intermediate optimizations on that tree
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15:09:45 <Karel> I'm looking for a blog post I read a couple of years ago, I think it references haskell quite a bit but it wasn't primarily about the language itself. I've been trying to find it for a while how, hopefully someone here remembers it:
15:09:45 <Karel> The core idea was that when devs compare programming languages, when they look down towards lower level languages they see obvious definciencies, but when they look upwards to higher level languages they don't see the advantages and just think "huh, that's strange".
15:10:00 <BusConscious> But with my unix shell, I'm not really sure, if I really need that. I certainly don't need it on the level of word expansions, where I originally came up with that approach, but in the parsing stage?
15:10:09 <BusConscious> I'm not really sure tbh
15:10:25 <geekosaur> an intermediate structure also helps you figure out beforehand what other forkProcess operations you need (consider `someOperation | while read line; do ... done`, where that `while` loop potentially needs to be in a subshell)
15:10:57 <lortabac> BusConscious: even if you don't need it right now, you don't lose anything by introducing an extra step, and it might be handy in case you need extra functionality
15:10:59 <geekosaur> in particular you'll need a separate subprocess if it is itself part of a longer pipeline and not the end of it
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15:11:39 <geekosaur> Karel, I'd ask that on reddit or the discourse, I think
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15:12:19 <BusConscious> lortabac: fair point I will probably stick with an AST for parsing the shell grammar
15:12:29 <Karel> geekosaur, Yeah good idea!
15:13:02 <BusConscious> But I will use the parsing directly to IOMonads approach when parsing words for word expansions at runtime
15:13:10 <BusConscious> this seems like a sensible compromise
15:13:49 <lortabac> IIRC PHP didn't have an AST at the beginning (opcodes were emitted directly during parsing), then they realized it was a bad idea
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15:16:06 <geekosaur> well, php wasn't intended to be a language at first, just a macro processor that produced perl
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15:20:44 <self-similar> hi everyone !
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15:24:15 <geekosaur> hello
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15:27:08 <Bulby[m]> i'm really disapointed with the error capabilities of parser-combinators' Control.Monad.Combinators.Expr
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15:35:52 <Karel> Someone on reddit has found what I was looking for already, it was called "the Blub Paradox": https://wiki.c2.com/?BlubParadox
15:36:00 <c_wraith> Bulby[m]: my experience with parser-combinators is that the maintainers are pretty responsive. I asked them to reimplement a whole feature once to improve it slightly, and it got done in about a week. They might be equally responsive to another report with some concrete suggestions of what additional stuff you're looking for.
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15:41:59 <Bulby[m]> https://craftinginterpreters.com/appendix-i.html#expressions is this grammar even parsable by it
15:42:06 <Bulby[m]> specifically expressions
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15:45:25 <c_wraith> it doesn't look like what the expression parser is intended to handle. Portions of it could be, but you'd have to rewrite them significantly from that form.
15:45:45 <Bulby[m]> yeah, figures
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15:54:32 <c_wraith> but the grammar there is already factored to build in associativity and precedence
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16:00:51 <Bulby[m]> writing my own chainl1, it's actually fairly easy to work with
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16:14:34 <kronicma1> Anyone know how I can make Cont work with freer-simple?
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16:15:01 <kronicma1> I can't seem to implement `Eff (Cont r ': effs) ~> Eff effs` in any reasonable way
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16:47:25 <slack1256> I got a Stream (well it is a list), that I want to guarrantee it won't be shared anywhere on the program. Otherwise the stream behaviour I specify will be stored on memory once the first consumer run. What are my options here? Can I use the newer linear type extensions for this?
16:48:25 <c_wraith> how strong of a guarantee?
16:49:23 <slack1256> I don't know how to measure guarantee. But if I get a some examples on how to do it, maybe I can compare them.
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16:49:36 <c_wraith> because anything type-based doesn't guarantee a lack of unsafeCoerce shenanigans
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16:49:38 <slack1256> I was thinking on a Rank2Type trick like ST to guarrantee an scope of validity.
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16:49:51 <slack1256> s_an_a.
16:50:11 <c_wraith> but yes, a higher-rank trick is the usual approach.
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16:51:50 <slack1256> I was thinking on some definition annotation that will tell GHC to not "let float" or share this value. That way I can tag the initial producer of the stream.
16:53:06 <slack1256> I usually keep in mind "who is the end consumer of this pipeline" and who is the "producer". That way the pipeline of functions work well with the demand analyzer on GHC and I get good consistent behaviour. But that trick can be done better if I can get this guarrantee.
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16:54:44 <slac77221> Oh, I changed network, but I am slack1256.
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16:58:05 <c_wraith> I'm a bit concerned about how important you are describing this as.
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16:59:06 <c_wraith> Are you doing something unsafe and trying to make it safe by carefully controlling consumption?
16:59:55 <sm> Karel: sounds like the blub paradox by Paul Graham ?
17:00:22 <sm> ack answered, missed it
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17:05:06 <Karel> sm, Yeah, thanks though!
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17:12:58 <BusConscious> quick Q: what does the second SourceName type parameter in parse (Text.Parsec) represent and how does it choice affect parse?
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17:18:20 <Bulby[m]> can i specifically hide all constructors of a data type
17:18:22 <Bulby[m]> when importing
17:19:16 <geekosaur> put the type in the import list by itself
17:19:52 <geekosaur> Foo is just the type, Foo(Ctor[, Ctor…]) is a list of data constructors, Foo(..) is all data constructors
17:21:04 <sm> import Module (Type()) is it ?
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17:22:32 <Bulby[m]> \o/
17:22:33 <Bulby[m]> no
17:22:38 <geekosaur> import Module (Type)
17:22:45 <Bulby[m]> but that only imports the type
17:22:50 <Bulby[m]> I mean import everything, except the constructors of the type
17:22:58 <geekosaur> as every new Haskeller learns when they forget the (..) to import all ctors)
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17:23:19 <geekosaur> wait, you want the data ctors but not the type ctor? that's useless
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17:23:34 <geekosaur> you can't refer to the data ctors you imported without the type
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17:28:48 <geekosaur> Bulby[m], why do you think you want untyped data constructors? Aside from the fact that you're translating from Java where they would have a "type" (every type inherits from java.lang.Object)
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17:41:46 <sm> maybe add a import Module hiding (Type)
17:42:47 <geekosaur> maybe that's what they mean. I don't think they can mean the other as ghc can't touch the data ctors without having a type for them
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17:51:50 <slack1256> c_wraith: Not something unsafe. But perfomance will suffer if I share this stream and the values are retained in memory.
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18:06:41 <Bulby[m]> hm, how would you handle `this` in classes with a heap
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18:07:39 <geekosaur> depends. some pass it as a hidden parameter
18:07:47 <Bulby[m]> I guess pass it as an arg?
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18:14:39 <Bulby[m]> the "javaism" is binding to it, which sounds sort of sane
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18:44:31 <Bulby[m]> users would expect `var foo = new Foo(); var bar = foo; bar.field = "foo"; print foo.field;` to print "foo", right?
18:44:32 <Bulby[m]> i.e. instances are stored by reference
18:45:06 <geekosaur> generally yes, but consider copy constructors in C++
18:45:09 <Bulby[m]> haxe does it that way, and it would make the implementation easier
18:46:29 <geekosaur> (of course C++ complicates things by having struct/class be non-reference, plus references and pointers which aren't the same thing)
18:46:49 <geekosaur> but `this` is implicitly a reference
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18:49:17 <Bulby[m]> what would be expected for `var foo = new Foo(); var bar = foo; foo = 1; print bar;` should it print "instance Foo"?
18:49:31 <Bulby[m]> i.e. something changes when assigning?
18:49:34 <Bulby[m]> because that borks a lot of the scope
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18:50:49 <geekosaur> seems to me that bar should be the object and foo should be 1, at the end of that
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18:51:18 <Bulby[m]> yes, which is what I expected
18:51:26 <Bulby[m]> this compilicates things
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18:51:32 <geekosaur> if that breaks something then you may need to rethink things; you should simply be reassigning heap "pointers"
18:53:09 <Bulby[m]> as in memory when assigning `foo = 1;` I would have to define a new heap value of 1 to keep bar intact
18:53:33 <geekosaur> yes. which might mean deciding whether numbers are objects
18:53:46 <Bulby[m]> and expressions aren't really meant to edit the stack, which is what would have to happen
18:54:49 <geekosaur> hm, would it? object references might simply be 2-level
18:55:20 <geekosaur> possibly with their own heap
18:56:17 <geekosaur> this might mean runtime type information so you know when that happens, though, otherwise you might treat an object reference as a number or something
18:57:02 <geekosaur> the more common approach is everything is an object, so `1.add(2)` would be meaningful
18:57:57 <geekosaur> and every heap reference is then depth 2, once for the object reference and the second for the actual value
18:58:31 <geekosaur> (or the java approach where primitive unboxed types are still depth 1, but that complicates things considerably)
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19:07:03 <geekosaur[m]> Come to think of it, your vars need RTTI anyway, you just add a new "ref" type
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19:26:55 <geekosaur> oh, hm, if the type is stored in the var instead of the value then that still edits the stack I guess. unless the vars are 2-level ({type, value})
19:27:41 <geekosaur> but if you don't do that you still hit this with `var foo = 1; foo = "a"`
19:28:09 <geekosaur> types of course avoid this, but Lox is untyped
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20:01:47 <Bulby[m]> yes, a new ref value would make sense
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20:14:24 <EvanR> java, the best dynamically typed language
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20:16:47 <Henson> does anybody have any recommendations for Haskell consulting firms?
20:17:50 <geekosaur> the only one I'm aware of is well-typed, and they may be outside your spending range
20:17:59 <geekosaur> (that doesn't prove there aren't others)
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20:26:33 <Henson> geekosaur: is well-typed really expensive?
20:26:59 <geekosaur> don't really know but I kinda expect consultants to be up there
20:27:26 <geekosaur> and they gotta be able to fund something like half the folks involved with ghc dev somehow :)
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20:29:18 <Bulby[m]> wtf you can't even derive eq, ord, or show for GADTs
20:30:27 <sclv> there's a ton of haskell consulting firms these days actually. i don't know much about them as firms, but i know people in them -- tweag, stackbuilders, obsidian, serokell are all some bigger names
20:30:28 <Bulby[m]> why are gadts so painufl
20:30:39 <geekosaur> you can't derive through an existential. rarely you can use standalone deriving, but most of the time the existential prevents you from doing much of anything
20:31:05 <geekosaur> because it has no knowable type from the outside
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20:31:23 <sclv> oh i guess monadfix is a notable consultancy too, among many others im sure im omitting
20:32:42 <sclv> Henson: as for which is right for you, i'd look at the projects of each and see what seems most suited to the sorts of things you need.
20:33:18 <sclv> if you use gadts for type indexing rather than existentials you can get pretty far
20:33:22 <sclv> with standalone deriving
20:33:29 <EvanR> GADTs are sort of the beginning of your ability to use logic, and then logic comes back with a vengance
20:33:37 <Henson> sclv: thank you for the names, I'll take a look into them
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20:33:48 <EvanR> poetically we have no one but ourselves to blame
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20:34:21 <EvanR> other programming languages manage to get things done by being illogical
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20:41:00 <Bulby[m]> you can standalone derive, but why can't you just uh derive
20:41:30 <Bulby[m]> i also wish there was wizardry that let generic work
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20:42:16 <sclv> thats actually a really good question -- vis a vis deriving. generics you need a different lib/approach, but it _should_ be that if you can standalone derive it you should be able to just derive it. i think that's probably something that could be worked out more carefully into a ghc proposal
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21:02:31 <ClathomasPrime> Hello! I'm trying to edit a big string by performing a function on every place in the string which matches a simple regex. It was looking like the replace-megaparsec function streamEdit is just what I need, but I can't figure out how to convert my simple regex to a Parsec
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21:02:58 <geekosaur> I think part of the problem there is the specifications for deriving those instances are from the Report and would require an extension. it's a good question whether that should be enabled by standalone deriving or if another extension would be needed to produce non-Report deriving code
21:03:23 <ClathomasPrime> The regex is just "<br>[^<]*</td>", and I'd like to run the function on everything which matches the [^<]*
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21:05:23 <geekosaur> this is parsing and you do it by parsing the string with parse or parseMaybe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.2.1/docs/Text-Megaparsec.html
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21:07:39 <ClathomasPrime> how is a "search and replace" type of operation a special case of parsing?
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21:08:23 <geekosaur> `parsing` is how you get that `Parsec` thing you wanted
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21:09:41 <Bulby[m]> i want to do something like rust
21:09:46 <Bulby[m]> with resource allocation and freeing
21:09:56 <Bulby[m]> "RAII" as the C++ crew calls it
21:11:14 <geekosaur> isn't this ResourceT?
21:11:54 <int-e> :t Control.Exception.bracket
21:11:55 <lambdabot> IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
21:12:02 <geekosaur> ClathomasPrime, also regexes are simple parsers
21:12:20 <dsal> regexes are parser whose input needs to be parsed so they can parse their input
21:13:46 <ClathomasPrime> I think I understand in theory. But I can't figure out how make a Parsec which matches in the same way as the regex "<br>[^<]*</td>"
21:15:20 <dsal> So, you're looking for text that starts with a <br> and satisfies `not . (== '<')` followed by </td> ?
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21:16:51 <ClathomasPrime> yes (with the longest possible string of not . (== '<'))
21:16:54 <dsal> You can use `between` with `(string "<br>") (string "</td>")` for anything satisfying `not . (== '<')`
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21:17:48 <EvanR> do any of the regex libs in haskell simply have this sort of find and replace
21:18:00 <geekosaur> `string "br" *> manyTill anyChar '<' <* string "</td>"` ?
21:18:06 <EvanR> i.e. what everyone uses regex for
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21:18:19 <geekosaur> probably not. I sometimes think thye regex api in haskell was designed to drive people away
21:18:41 <dsal> I tried a thing with regex before I learned how to do parsec things and had a very bad time.
21:18:50 <geekosaur> because you're "supposed to" write a parser
21:18:54 <dsal> The worst part was async exceptions.
21:19:13 <Guest27> Just write a Haskell function that takes a String and passes it to sed as a script :P
21:19:13 <EvanR> so regexen need some love in haskell
21:19:22 <hpc> i mean, a regex is basically just a non-recursive parsec parser
21:19:33 <EvanR> that is orders of magnitude shorter in code xD
21:20:04 <dsal> megaparsec code is generally easier to read and gives much better error messages when things go wrong.
21:20:10 <EvanR> and doesn't explain the find and replace part
21:20:13 <EvanR> parsec
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21:20:52 <EvanR> yeah a formal parser you want to reuse is better in fooparsec
21:21:03 <dsal> I've not looked at replace-megaparsec
21:21:57 <EvanR> a book just came in the mail which does input validation in increasingly haskelly and safer ways. Maybe someone should write such a book on "find and replace" xD
21:22:57 <geekosaur> hm, I think a pair of <> got et earlier
21:23:11 <EvanR> Bulby[m], now you need linear types!
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21:25:52 <geekosaur> `string "<br>" *> manyTill anyChar '<' <* string "/td>"` I think
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21:29:16 <ClathomasPrime> thank you geekosaur! It looks right for Parsec. I have to also convert it to MegaParsec though, and now I'm having trouble there. Trying though
21:30:01 <geekosaur> you may have to import Control.Applicative.Combinators
21:30:02 <dsal> Does that not work for megaparsec? Do you have a particular error?
21:30:43 <geekosaur> (the functionality was separated out because it's actually in common with a bunch of other parsers)
21:32:01 <dsal> I think `manyTill` wants a parser for the second function. So like `manyTill anyChar (single '<')`
21:32:11 <dsal> er, param. I should take a nap.
21:32:18 <geekosaur> mm, yes, sorry
21:32:34 <geekosaur> or `char` instead of `single` should work I think
21:33:20 <dsal> Yeah, that looks better.
21:33:30 <ClathomasPrime> It looks like "import Text.Megaparsec" doesn't bring in the functions string or anyChar
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21:33:47 <dsal> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.0.1/docs/Text-Megaparsec-Char.html
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21:34:46 <geekosaur> megaparsec can parse more than just `String`s
21:35:11 <geekosaur> so there are separate modules for various things it can work with directly, plous tools for building your own
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21:35:35 <ClathomasPrime> nice, Text.Megaparsec.Char brought in "string". Still looking for "anyChar"
21:35:49 <dsal> You can press `s` on the docs to find related symbols.
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21:36:56 <dsal> I don't see `anyChar`, but I see `anySingle`. Looking through my own code, I see that I use `anyChar` in attoparsec some.
21:37:07 <dsal> There are lot of parser libraries in Haskell. It's basically hello world.
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21:39:33 <ClathomasPrime> nice, looks like anySingle is what I needed!
21:39:52 <ClathomasPrime> Thanks for a lot of good tips (e.g. I had no idea on pressing s)
21:40:04 <ClathomasPrime> Looks like the parser works, let's see if I can do my replacing
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22:50:38 <Haskelytic> guys, how is cabal freeze different from stack resolver?
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22:52:32 <hpc> the package set hasn't already been written by someone else
22:53:05 <geekosaur> you can get a cabal.freeze from stackage.org
22:53:22 <geekosaur> there are a few operational differences but I don't recall what they are off the top of my head
22:54:08 <Haskelytic> so stackage and hackage are basically both package indices?
22:54:47 <Bulby[m]> i think stackage is an attempt to keep it more stable
22:55:43 <hpc> in theory you can make a package depend on all of a stack lts at the same time and it will still be coherent
22:55:49 <geekosaur> hackage is the master repository, which even stackage uses. stackage publishes curated sets of packages, sourced from hackage, which are known to work together
22:56:37 <Haskelytic> ohhh, makes sense now. thanks :)
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22:58:14 <geekosaur> if you use `cabal freeze` to create a freeze file, cabal won't upgrade packages listed in it just because a new version comes out, which it will otherwise do as long as the new package fits version constraints
22:58:41 <geekosaur> this may avoid thrashing or discovery of bad package dependencies on a new release
22:59:06 <Haskelytic> hmm I see
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22:59:24 <Haskelytic> so it would be up to the developer to "unfreeze" as needed?
22:59:35 <geekosaur> yes
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23:00:18 <geekosaur> because you want something from a newer version, or just because you can afford have your dependencies getting rebuilt instead of just the thing you're working on :)
23:01:01 <geekosaur> (hence "thrashing". I don't use a freeze file on my xmonad config, which uses dbus, and it rebuilds conduit and/or lens every couple weeks…)
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23:01:47 <Haskelytic> ahh i see
23:01:55 <Haskelytic> thanks for that detailed example
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All times are in UTC on 2022-06-09.