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Logs on 2022-06-20 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:59:16 <Clinton[m]> Just to confirm, I can't actually define `f` here can I?... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/e60d173a182ec7554c7ab7949cd3d7ee6650ecdd)
01:08:11 <[Leary]> Clinton[m]: You need to incur a constraint. The sane way is to write it as a typeclass method, but it may be possible at the top level with reflection.
01:13:21 <sebastiandb> Just wondering, why doesn't everyone always just use Data.Vector instead of lists? They have their own equivalent versions of e.g. foldr, map, null, etc., so they're not more limited. And the typical advice in other languages is to prefer vectors/arrays over lists because they're almost always more performant, due to cache locality they provide. Are lazy lists that much of a benefit?
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01:17:31 <Clinton[m]> sebastiandb: They do. But there are certain circumstances where lists are better, for example when you want to share tails or fast concatenation/removal from the front. It's not much different to other languages. People even use mutable vectors in Haskell when appropriate.
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01:20:02 <Clinton[m]> Clinton[m]: Much of the standard "prelude" was designed 30 years ago in an academic setting and doesn't reflect modern Haskell. It's still there for backwards compatibility sake and features prominently in teaching though but it doesn't mean that's how Haskell is used in industry.
01:25:23 <sebastiandb> Clinton[m]: That makes sense. Thank you for the answer!
01:27:00 <Clinton[m]> sebastiandb: Like for example, the standard string type which is a `[Char]` is ridiculous for most purposes. Generally people use `Text` now, which internally uses UTF-8 arrays.
01:28:47 <sebastiandb> Clinton[m]: Yeah, I knew that `Text` was preferred over `String`, but that only made me wonder why people didn't default to using vectors by the same logic. I guess it should have been obvious to me that they do.
01:32:13 <Clinton[m]> sebastiandb: There historically have been some peculiar performance issues with the way the garbage collector interacts with _mutable_ vectors containing boxed objects (this is not an issue with immutable ones), largely because the GHC garbage collector is optimised around the idea that objects can not point at objects created after themselves. This is almost always true in Haskell but isn't true for mutable vectors. But I think that's
01:32:13 <Clinton[m]> been largely sorted recently.
01:34:12 <Clinton[m]> Clinton[m]: Basically the Haskell garbage collector can collect garbage far more quickly than say Java because it can make this assumption that an object has no things pointing to it that were created before it. Which is very nice usually except when you throw mutable vectors into the mix.
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01:37:48 <Maxdamantus> Wouldn't that assumption also be broken using `let x = 0 : x in x`?
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01:38:11 <Maxdamantus> (ie, anything cyclic)
01:39:36 <Maxdamantus> actually, nvm, that only points to something created after it.
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01:40:26 <Maxdamantus> hmm, but that sounds like the same thing.
01:40:38 <Clinton[m]> Maxdamantus: Well it points to something created at the same time, but it doesn't point at the future.
01:41:11 <Maxdamantus> ah okay, so there are multiple things created in the same generation or something.
01:43:03 <Maxdamantus> it still seems like it should be possible to create intergenerational cycles.
01:43:36 <sebastiandb> Clinton[m]: Could you point out a specific example where the Java garbage collector could be hindered by this? Why might Java's garbage collector have more trouble with a list of boxed objects than Haskell's? Can't you make a new object pointing to an old one by making a list `l1`, and then later making a list `l2 = tail l1`?
01:43:53 <Clinton[m]> Maxdamantus: How? You can't point to something that doesn't exist, and you can't mutate something existing already.
01:44:53 <sebastiandb> Oh, that last part of my question doesn't make sense, nvm. You said an old thing pointing to something that was just created, not a new thing pointing to an old thing.
01:45:56 <Maxdamantus> Clinton[m]: are thunks not considered to be mutable things?
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01:46:08 <Maxdamantus> foo = seq somethingExpensive $ 1 : foo
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01:49:21 <Maxdamantus> the `foo` thunk is created first, then later on a (:) object is created and the `foo` thunk is updated to point to the (:) object.
01:49:54 <Clinton[m]> <sebastiandb> "Clinton: Could you point out a..." <- Because in Haskell you garbage collect your last X created objects just by checking whether any live objects point to any of them. If they do just copy the live objects elsewhere and you can delete the rest. Except you don't have to "delete" the rest you can just start overriding them.
01:49:55 <Clinton[m]> So you can basically garbage collect millions of objects in hardly any time at all. You just copy the live ones out and just start overriding the dead ones.
01:49:55 <Clinton[m]> You can't do that so simply in Java because there could be a pointer ANYWHERE in the program that points to your newly created data. So you have to scan the whole program's memory space.
01:49:55 <Clinton[m]> There are ways around that but it's more complex in Java.
01:50:00 <Maxdamantus> ie, the (:) is referenced by the previously created `foo` thunk.
01:57:32 <Clinton[m]> <Maxdamantus> "ie, the (:) is referenced by the..." <- huh? initially you just have a `foo` thunk, this references nothing. Then after `seq` resolves you've got `foo = 1 : foo`. But the self reference here it to the new foo, not the initial foo thunk.
01:58:44 <Maxdamantus> the existing `foo` thunk needs to be updated, since it could have been used more than once.
02:00:54 <Maxdamantus> head (tail foo) == head (tail foo)
02:02:08 <Clinton[m]> Maxdamantus: hmmmm good point...
02:02:20 <Maxdamantus> the first `tail` call will force the thunk to evaluate and update, so the second one will be able to read the existing (:) object (which was created after the `foo` thunk)
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02:04:50 <Clinton[m]> Maxdamantus: hrmmm, not sure about how this works, I might ask on `ghc-devs@haskell.org`
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02:26:06 <EvanR> the main difference between haskell and java gc is that all haskell pointers point backwards in time because immutability
02:26:34 <EvanR> you can't point to an object that doesn't exist yet
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02:28:40 <EvanR> ghc actually updates pointers when thunks are evaluated, and this still makes sense because of referential transparency
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02:50:34 <Maxdamantus> but an unevaluated thunk could be stored in millions of places. what happens when the thunk finally gets evaluated? what pointers are updated?
02:51:53 <Zemyla> I think they get updated during the next GC cycle.
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02:53:57 <monochrom> Before the next GC cycle, the value replaces the thunk in-place. Or rather, pointer to the value replaces the thunk in-place. You suffer one more indirection but it also means the value is immediately shared and visible by all.
02:54:25 <monochrom> And the value needs exist at just one location.
02:54:57 <monochrom> The next GC cycle is simply responsible for path compression. OK, "simply".
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02:59:18 <Maxdamantus> hm, so I guess the point is that older generations are made to never point to the "compressed" versions of thunks (which could be a pointer to the actual data object's memory, or an unboxed copy) in newer generations?
03:00:21 <Maxdamantus> though they can still point to uncompressed thunks (thunks that are either unevaluated or pending compression on the next GC cycle)
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03:00:59 <Maxdamantus> (and the uncompressed thunks can point to things in a newer generation)
03:01:30 <EvanR> evaluation may or may not be compression o_O, in lambda calculus it's probably an expansion
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03:02:15 <EvanR> which is why you want to gc temporary stuff soon
03:02:33 <monochrom> Oh, "path compression" is my wording. Still, I never said "value compression" either. I said "path compression".
03:02:35 <Maxdamantus> I was assuming compression means something like removing a level of indirection due to the thunk.
03:03:21 <EvanR> regardless nothing can point into a later generation
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03:03:54 <EvanR> which makes minor gc faster
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03:09:28 <Maxdamantus> but it must be able to point to something in the newest generation, since GC hasn't happened yet. eg, if you've just got some top level lazy definition, `foo = expensiveCalculation 42` then you've used `foo` as arguments to various data constructors (eg, `let a = [foo, foo, foo] in seq (length a) foo`), when someone finally causes the thunk to evaluate, it's going to point to something new.
03:10:03 <Axman6> that new thing will still be in the same place thought, right?
03:10:07 <Axman6> though*
03:10:40 <Axman6> all those foo's are pointing to where the answer will be when evaluated. but I guess that that evaluating that thing might allocate new objects
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03:11:14 <Maxdamantus> yes, I'm assuming `expensiveCalculation` will allocate a new object.
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03:14:14 <Maxdamantus> that `a` list might have had its length taken (causing 4 (:) objects to be created) long before `foo` is forced.
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03:14:25 <Maxdamantus> s/4/3/
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03:18:10 <Maxdamantus> er, meant to use `a` as the second argument to `seq`, not `foo`: `let a = [foo, foo, foo] in seq (length a) a`
03:18:12 <EvanR> now I don't know, remind me to revisit this one
03:18:19 <hololeap> does a definition of `pure` that does any sort of extra work break the semantics of Applicative?
03:18:44 <Axman6> depends if you can tell what the extra work is
03:19:06 <Axman6> Years ago I got told off for making a monad that counted how many times (>>=) was called
03:20:05 <Maxdamantus> I'll probably forget, but I think my interpretation of what monochrom said makes sense and is probably useful for generational GC tracing (as well as locality)
03:20:39 <Maxdamantus> will probably think about it more if I ever have to write a GC.
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03:21:32 <monochrom> Haha Axman6 that would be me. I put it on my exam too!
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03:22:31 <Axman6> Were you extra mean, and just made the question: "Monadn't?"
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03:23:10 <hololeap> the work is from megaparsec. if `eof` succeeds we use the CompleteParse constructor, otherwise use `lookAhead (some anySingle)` and push the string into PartialParse
03:23:28 <hololeap> it shouldn't change the state, but it does work
03:23:39 <monochrom> I say that I am not mean, but I am not an accurate judge on that. The question was "use a counterexample to show that it breaks a monad law".
03:24:28 <Axman6> That's what I said, Monadn't :P
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03:24:37 <monochrom> OK!
03:24:58 <dsal> I'm going to start calling Applicative Functors Lessnads
03:25:03 <Axman6> Mind if I ask where you run your course?
03:25:04 <monochrom> Neither `eof` nor `lookAhead` is remotely close to `pure`.
03:25:10 <Axman6> dsal: <3
03:25:20 <monochrom> U of Toronto Scarborough.
03:26:04 <hololeap> monochrom: I understand that, but it doesn't break the laws, AFAIK
03:26:14 <monochrom> But it is not clear whether I told you off or I told someone else off for doing the same thing.
03:26:38 <Axman6> this was more than a decade ago, possibly aroundf 2008-9
03:26:49 <monochrom> The instance I saw is... Let me find it from my bookmarks.
03:27:21 <monochrom> This one: https://betterprogramming.pub/monads-are-just-fancy-semicolons-ffe38401fd0e
03:27:31 <monochrom> OK so not yours haha.
03:27:39 <Axman6> side thought - do indexed monads have other laws? I assume pure must have the type a -
03:27:44 <Axman6> a -> m x x a
03:28:17 <hololeap> the applicative is based on `WriterT (Last ParseCoverage) (ParsecT e s m)`
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03:28:42 <hololeap> data ParseCoverage = PartialParse String | CompleteParse
03:31:04 <monochrom> hololeap: So if you make (>>=) or pure increase a counter, that breaks identity laws. But if you make a separate `tick` to increase a counter, and (>>=) and pure merely not ruining tick's achievement, then that's lawful.
03:31:50 <monochrom> (This is of course assuming the non-trolling non-degenerate position that the counter is actually visible.)
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03:32:06 <monochrom> (or rather, part of the semantics of whatever you're doing)
03:32:18 <hololeap> that makes sense, but in this case it's not accumulating anything, just keeping the most recent result, hence Last
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03:33:16 <hololeap> it looks at the current state, but doesn't change it, makes a decision as to which constructor to use, but that can be overridden by a later computation
03:34:18 <monochrom> Yeah when I discussed that counter monad (pun!) in this channel, someone pointed out that if >>= increments and pure decrements, or something wacky like that, it's lawful again.
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03:35:20 <hololeap> huh, I vaguely remember that last time I brought up the idea of a counter monad in here
03:35:36 <monochrom> >:)
03:36:43 <hololeap> I'll try to set up some tests to see if my thing is actually lawful
03:36:47 <monochrom> Everyone loves counter examples! >:)
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03:40:22 <hololeap> why in the world is WriterT = m (a, w)
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03:40:47 <hololeap> as opposed to m (w, a)
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03:41:36 <monochrom> I only know why State is s->(a,s). I don't know whether they are related.
03:41:51 <hololeap> why is that, monochrom?
03:42:58 <hololeap> given that (w,a)/(s,a) actually has quite a few typeclass instances, it seems like a no-brainer to keep them in that order
03:43:32 <monochrom> In mathematics it's nicer to discuss the duality between s->_ and _×s, rather than s->_ and s×_
03:43:49 <monochrom> perhaps s/duality/adjunction/
03:44:34 <Axman6> yeah I was going to say, surely the adjunction formed by ((->) s) and (s,) is nicer, at least in Haskell
03:44:51 <Axman6> because both of those are actual Haskell Functors, not just CT ones
03:45:47 <Axman6> so you get Compose ((->) s) (s,) === State, and Compose (s,) ((->) s) gives you Store, right?
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03:48:29 <monochrom> OK, so when you curry/uncurry between (s,t)->u and s->(t->u), you find yourself looking at (s,_) and s->_
03:48:48 <monochrom> Err wait, that doesn't justify (_,s) haha
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03:49:51 <monochrom> OK, I forgot what is nicer with that.
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03:53:13 <monochrom> Ah, it's (t,s)->u and t->(s->u), fitting Hom(F(t), u) and Hom(t, G(u)).
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04:21:58 × tomsmeding quits (~tomsmedin@2a01:4f8:c0c:5e5e::2) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × ManofLetters[m] quits (~manoflett@2001:470:69fc:105::3be) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × bitonic quits (~bitonic@2001:470:69fc:105::1812) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × kawzeg_ quits (kawzeg@2a01:7e01::f03c:92ff:fee2:ec34) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × lambda451[m] quits (~lambda451@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1097) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × welterde quits (welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × amongas666[m] quits (~amongas66@2001:470:69fc:105::2:fea) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × thonkpod_ quits (~thonkpod@user/thonkpod) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × marienz_ quits (marienz@libera/staff/marienz) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × alanz quits (sid110616@id-110616.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × megeve quits (sid523379@id-523379.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × Jon quits (jon@dow.land) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × totbwf quits (sid402332@id-402332.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × tv quits (~tv@user/tv) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × c_wraith quits (~c_wraith@adjoint.us) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × acidsys quits (~crameleon@openSUSE/member/crameleon) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × drewr quits (~drew@user/drewr) (*.net *.split)
04:21:58 × jakalx quits (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (*.net *.split)
04:22:06 → aristid joins (sid1599@id-1599.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
04:22:06 → teehemkay_ joins (sid14792@id-14792.lymington.irccloud.com)
04:22:06 → landonf joins (landonf@mac68k.info)
04:22:07 → totbwf joins (sid402332@id-402332.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
04:22:07 → SethTisue joins (sid14912@id-14912.ilkley.irccloud.com)
04:22:08 → sclv joins (sid39734@haskell/developer/sclv)
04:22:10 → Jon joins (jon@dow.land)
04:22:12 → marienz joins (marienz@libera/staff/marienz)
04:22:13 → NemesisD joins (sid24071@id-24071.lymington.irccloud.com)
04:22:13 → caasih joins (sid13241@id-13241.ilkley.irccloud.com)
04:22:17 → alanz joins (sid110616@id-110616.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
04:22:21 → tnks joins (sid412124@id-412124.helmsley.irccloud.com)
04:22:21 → megeve joins (sid523379@id-523379.hampstead.irccloud.com)
04:22:21 → ProofTechnique joins (sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com)
04:22:26 → emergence joins (emergence@2607:5300:60:5910:dcad:beff:feef:5bc)
04:22:29 → kawzeg_ joins (kawzeg@2a01:7e01::f03c:92ff:fee2:ec34)
04:22:30 → bastelfreak joins (~bastelfre@basteles-bastelknecht.bastelfreak.org)
04:22:35 → tomsmeding joins (~tomsmedin@static.21.109.88.23.clients.your-server.de)
04:22:36 → acidsys joins (~crameleon@openSUSE/member/crameleon)
04:22:36 → jocke-l joins (jocke-l@a.x0.is)
04:22:39 → thonkpod_ joins (~thonkpod@2001:19f0:ac01:b46:5400:1ff:fec7:d73d)
04:22:42 × thonkpod_ quits (~thonkpod@2001:19f0:ac01:b46:5400:1ff:fec7:d73d) (Signing in (thonkpod_))
04:22:42 → thonkpod_ joins (~thonkpod@user/thonkpod)
04:22:49 → hendi joins (sid489601@id-489601.lymington.irccloud.com)
04:22:50 → saolsen joins (sid26430@id-26430.lymington.irccloud.com)
04:22:50 → acertain joins (sid470584@id-470584.hampstead.irccloud.com)
04:22:51 → welterde joins (welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de)
04:22:55 → beaky joins (~beaky@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::1e:a001)
04:22:57 → pierrot joins (~pi@user/pierrot)
04:23:00 → tv joins (~tv@user/tv)
04:23:01 → PHO` joins (~pho@akari.cielonegro.org)
04:23:02 → burakcank joins (~burakcank@has.arrived.and.is.ready-to.party)
04:23:22 → drewr joins (~drew@user/drewr)
04:23:39 → c_wraith joins (~c_wraith@adjoint.us)
04:23:51 → Guest8247 joins (~krjst@2604:a880:800:c1::16b:8001)
04:25:44 → cherries[m] joins (~cherriesm@2001:470:69fc:105::2:16c0)
04:26:29 → phuegrvs[m] joins (~phuegrvsm@2001:470:69fc:105::1:65e4)
04:27:00 × lottaquestions quits (~nick@2607:fa49:5041:a200:4b68:d7e8:c69e:f4bf) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × mtjm quits (~mutantmel@2604:a880:2:d0::208b:d001) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × Henkru quits (henkru@kapsi.fi) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × elfi2125[m] quits (~elfi2125m@2001:470:69fc:105::2:13d6) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × whatsupdoc quits (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × AkechiShiro quits (~licht@user/akechishiro) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × chreekat quits (~chreekat@2001:470:69fc:105::16b5) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × hochata quits (~hochata@user/hochata) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × edr quits (~edr@user/edr) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × tritlo quits (sid58727@user/tritlo) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × acacia quits (~alloca@user/suppi) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × gaze___ quits (sid387101@id-387101.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × geekosaur[m] quits (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × lieven quits (~mal@ns2.wyrd.be) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × koala_man quits (~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × Dykam_ quits (Dykam@dykam.nl) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × yushyin quits (4BFGEnxeeu@mail.karif.server-speed.net) (*.net *.split)
04:27:00 × rubin55 quits (sid175221@id-175221.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:27:01 × Firedancer quits (sid336191@id-336191.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:27:01 × Kamuela quits (sid111576@id-111576.tinside.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:27:01 × liskin quits (~liskin@xmonad/liskin) (*.net *.split)
04:27:01 × gmc quits (sid58314@id-58314.ilkley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:27:01 × edwardk quits (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) (*.net *.split)
04:27:01 × hamishmack quits (sid389057@id-389057.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:27:01 × nshepperd quits (nshepperd@2600:3c03::f03c:92ff:fe28:92c9) (*.net *.split)
04:27:01 × Athas quits (athas@sigkill.dk) (*.net *.split)
04:27:09 → Athas joins (athas@sigkill.dk)
04:27:10 → edwardk joins (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk)
04:27:12 → hamishmack joins (sid389057@id-389057.hampstead.irccloud.com)
04:27:12 → edr joins (~edr@enlo.co)
04:27:12 → Henkru joins (~henkru@kapsi.fi)
04:27:16 → gmc joins (sid58314@id-58314.ilkley.irccloud.com)
04:27:20 → gaze___ joins (sid387101@id-387101.helmsley.irccloud.com)
04:27:20 → rubin55 joins (sid175221@id-175221.hampstead.irccloud.com)
04:27:22 → whatsupdoc joins (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com)
04:27:24 → Kamuela joins (sid111576@id-111576.tinside.irccloud.com)
04:27:31 → nshepperd joins (nshepperd@2600:3c03::f03c:92ff:fe28:92c9)
04:27:32 → Firedancer joins (sid336191@id-336191.hampstead.irccloud.com)
04:27:32 → acacia joins (~alloca@2a03:4000:f:7ca:7407:d1ff:fe34:8cd0)
04:27:32 → lieven joins (~mal@ns2.wyrd.be)
04:27:33 → Dykam joins (Dykam@dykam.nl)
04:27:33 → yushyin joins (OdT0XD4zx5@mail.karif.server-speed.net)
04:27:33 → liskin joins (~liskin@ackle.nomi.cz)
04:27:39 → AkechiShiro joins (~licht@2a01:e0a:5f9:9681:6ef6:204a:3e2c:ce07)
04:27:42 × acacia quits (~alloca@2a03:4000:f:7ca:7407:d1ff:fe34:8cd0) (Signing in (acacia))
04:27:42 → acacia joins (~alloca@user/suppi)
04:27:42 × liskin quits (~liskin@ackle.nomi.cz) (Signing in (liskin))
04:27:42 → liskin joins (~liskin@xmonad/liskin)
04:27:48 → jakalx joins (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net)
04:27:49 × edr quits (~edr@enlo.co) (Changing host)
04:27:49 → edr joins (~edr@user/edr)
04:27:59 → tritlo joins (sid58727@user/tritlo)
04:28:00 → Guest7 joins (~Guest7@2601:483:5a80:16e0:b9e3:e3df:8bd9:7968)
04:28:00 → lottaquestions joins (~nick@2607:fa49:5041:a200:befb:c8a2:f655:5c1b)
04:28:00 → x88x88x joins (~x88x88x@149.28.53.172)
04:28:23 → mtjm joins (~mutantmel@2604:a880:2:d0::208b:d001)
04:28:43 → doomfume[m] joins (~doomfumeh@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2a62)
04:29:05 → Nate[m] joins (~m52957mat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:591a)
04:30:04 → amongas666[m] joins (~amongas66@2001:470:69fc:105::2:fea)
04:30:08 × cocreature quits (~moritz@2a03:b0c0:3:d0::c8:f001) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × meejah quits (~meejah@rutas.meejah.ca) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × Tubo[m] quits (~tubogram@user/tubogram) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × polykernel[m] quits (~polykerne@user/polykernel) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × treeshateorcs[m] quits (~treeshate@2001:470:69fc:105::1:41c4) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × ereslibre[m] quits (~ereslibre@2001:470:69fc:105::1:8f90) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × Christoph[m] quits (~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × alexfmpe[m] quits (~alexfmpem@2001:470:69fc:105::38ba) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × unclechu quits (~unclechu@2001:470:69fc:105::354) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × dyniec_ quits (~dyniec@mail.dybiec.info) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × Ttech quits (adran@botters/adran) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × bjs quits (sid190364@user/bjs) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × integral quits (sid296274@user/integral) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × cbarrett quits (sid192934@id-192934.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × alinab quits (sid468903@id-468903.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × chessai quits (sid225296@id-225296.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × lightandlight quits (sid135476@id-135476.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × dagit quits (~dagit@2001:558:6025:38:6476:a063:d05a:44da) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × poljar quits (~poljar@93-139-81-189.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × carter quits (sid14827@id-14827.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × philpax_ quits (sid516926@id-516926.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × mesaoptimizer quits (sid546676@user/PapuaHardyNet) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × bradparker quits (sid262931@id-262931.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × b20n quits (sid115913@id-115913.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × parseval quits (sid239098@id-239098.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:08 × edmundnoble quits (sid229620@id-229620.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split)
04:30:16 → alinab joins (sid468903@id-468903.helmsley.irccloud.com)
04:30:24 → dyniec_ joins (~dyniec@mail.dybiec.info)
04:30:27 → mesaoptimizer joins (sid546676@user/PapuaHardyNet)
04:30:27 → cbarrett joins (sid192934@id-192934.helmsley.irccloud.com)
04:30:27 → meejah joins (~meejah@rutas.meejah.ca)
04:30:29 → integral joins (sid296274@user/integral)
04:30:31 → bjs joins (sid190364@user/bjs)
04:30:32 → parseval joins (sid239098@id-239098.helmsley.irccloud.com)
04:30:39 × Guest7 quits (~Guest7@2601:483:5a80:16e0:b9e3:e3df:8bd9:7968) (Client Quit)
04:30:45 → poljar joins (~poljar@93-139-81-189.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
04:30:53 → bradparker joins (sid262931@id-262931.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
04:30:55 → edmundnoble joins (sid229620@id-229620.helmsley.irccloud.com)
04:30:56 → philpax_ joins (sid516926@id-516926.lymington.irccloud.com)
04:30:56 → chessai joins (sid225296@id-225296.lymington.irccloud.com)
04:30:57 → lightandlight joins (sid135476@2a03:5180:f:1::2:1134)
04:31:05 → cocreature joins (~moritz@2a03:b0c0:3:d0::c8:f001)
04:31:07 → b20n joins (sid115913@id-115913.uxbridge.irccloud.com)
04:31:22 → carter joins (sid14827@2a03:5180:f:1::39eb)
04:32:08 → koala_man joins (~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com)
04:32:09 → Adran joins (adran@botters/adran)
04:32:28 → thewaves joins (~thewaves@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2eef)
04:32:33 → lambda451[m] joins (~lambda451@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1097)
04:33:24 → ManofLetters[m] joins (~manoflett@2001:470:69fc:105::3be)
04:33:28 → bitonic joins (~bitonic@2001:470:69fc:105::1812)
04:34:17 → cony_mony[m] joins (~conymonym@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2ea2)
04:34:47 → hochata joins (~hochata@user/hochata)
04:36:54 → chreekat joins (~chreekat@2001:470:69fc:105::16b5)
04:41:31 → geekosaur[m] joins (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
04:41:51 → elfi2125[m] joins (~elfi2125m@2001:470:69fc:105::2:13d6)
04:42:32 → unclechu joins (~unclechu@2001:470:69fc:105::354)
04:43:17 → Christoph[m] joins (~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8)
04:43:52 → Tubo[m] joins (~tubogram@user/tubogram)
04:46:47 → polykernel[m] joins (~polykerne@user/polykernel)
04:47:31 → ereslibre[m] joins (~ereslibre@2001:470:69fc:105::1:8f90)
04:48:32 × liz quits (~liz@cpc84585-newc17-2-0-cust60.16-2.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
04:49:05 → ralu17 joins (~ralu@static.211.245.203.116.clients.your-server.de)
04:49:22 → treeshateorcs[m] joins (~treeshate@2001:470:69fc:105::1:41c4)
04:49:58 → darksatanic joins (~darkling@savella.carfax.org.uk)
04:50:01 → eL_Bart0 joins (eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org)
04:50:04 → tapas_ joins (sid467876@id-467876.ilkley.irccloud.com)
04:50:10 → avpx_ joins (~nick@ec2-54-214-223-1.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com)
04:51:05 × rodental quits (~rodental@38.146.5.222) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
04:51:32 → telser_ joins (~quassel@user/telser)
04:51:33 → bonz060_ joins (~quassel@2001:bc8:47a4:a23::1)
04:52:21 → SIben_ joins (~SIben@ns3106586.ip-5-135-191.eu)
04:52:22 → djanatyn1 joins (~djanatyn@vps-7f49a6b0.vps.ovh.ca)
04:52:22 → some02 joins (~cat@user/sudden)
04:52:22 → alexfmpe[m] joins (~alexfmpem@2001:470:69fc:105::38ba)
04:52:24 → shachaf_ joins (~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com)
04:52:26 → gdd1 joins (~gdd@2001:470:1f13:187:7f5b:6c09:f7ed:fdf0)
04:52:38 → lucifero joins (~satan@ip-046-223-003-068.um13.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
04:52:53 → Patternm1ster joins (~georg@li1192-118.members.linode.com)
04:52:55 → robbert joins (~robbert@robbertvanderhelm.nl)
04:52:56 → statusfa1led joins (~statusfai@statusfailed.com)
04:52:56 → ncf_ joins (~n@monade.li)
04:53:01 × darkling quits (~darkling@2001-ba8-1f1-f0e6-0-0-0-2.autov6rev.bitfolk.space) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:01 × eL_Bart0- quits (eL_Bart0@dietunichtguten.org) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:01 × thornAvery quits (~thornAver@104.156.232.89) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:01 × avpx quits (~nick@ec2-54-214-223-1.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:01 × Christoph[m] quits (~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:02 × cony_mony[m] quits (~conymonym@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2ea2) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:02 × Nate[m] quits (~m52957mat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:591a) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:02 × doomfume[m] quits (~doomfumeh@2001:470:69fc:105::2:2a62) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:02 × gdd quits (~gdd@2001:470:1f13:187:49b9:231c:6a88:73db) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:02 × perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:02 × sudden quits (~cat@user/sudden) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:02 × Zach[m] quits (~zoglesby@user/zoglesby) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:02 × kosmikus[m] quits (~andresloe@2001:470:69fc:105::95d) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × djanatyn quits (~djanatyn@vps-7f49a6b0.vps.ovh.ca) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × JensPetersen[m] quits (~juhp@2001:470:69fc:105::6e9) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × hinny[m] quits (~hinnymatr@2001:470:69fc:105::2:18ed) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × Orbstheorem quits (~orbstheor@2001:470:69fc:105::a56) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × coltenwebb[m] quits (~coltenweb@2001:470:69fc:105::2:17c7) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × andjjj23_ quits (~irc@107.170.228.47) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × SIben quits (~SIben@ns3106586.ip-5-135-191.eu) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × steve[m] quits (~stevetrou@2001:470:69fc:105::e0b) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × belphegor666 quits (~satan@user/belphegor666) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × canta quits (~canta@user/canta) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × shachaf quits (~shachaf@user/shachaf) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × hochata quits (~hochata@user/hochata) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × bitonic quits (~bitonic@2001:470:69fc:105::1812) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × ManofLetters[m] quits (~manoflett@2001:470:69fc:105::3be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × asm quits (~alexander@user/asm) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × tureba quits (~tureba@tureba.org) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × Patternmaster quits (~georg@user/Patternmaster) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × xsarnik quits (xsarnik@lounge.fi.muni.cz) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × xstill_ quits (xstill@fimu/xstill) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × ncf quits (~n@monade.li) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × robbert-vdh quits (~robbert@robbertvanderhelm.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × tapas quits (sid467876@id-467876.ilkley.irccloud.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × shane quits (~shane@ana.rch.ist) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × bonz060 quits (~quassel@2001:bc8:47a4:a23::1) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × ralu1 quits (~ralu@static.211.245.203.116.clients.your-server.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × telser quits (~quassel@user/telser) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:53:03 × statusfailed quits (~statusfai@statusfailed.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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07:49:08 ccntrq1 is now known as ccntrq
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08:06:06 ccntrq1 is now known as ccntrq
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08:17:30 ccntrq1 is now known as ccntrq
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08:36:42 ccntrq1 is now known as ccntrq
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08:47:14 ccntrq1 is now known as ccntrq
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08:58:54 ccntrq1 is now known as ccntrq
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09:01:54 × Alex_test quits (~al_test@94.233.240.20) (Quit: ;-)
09:02:43 × ec quits (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Remote host closed the connection)
09:02:48 × AlexZenon quits (~alzenon@94.233.240.20) (Quit: ;-)
09:03:49 → ec joins (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
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09:11:32 × ec quits (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Remote host closed the connection)
09:11:57 × CiaoSen quits (~Jura@p200300c95732b3002a3a4dfffe84dbd5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: CiaoSen)
09:12:24 → ec joins (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
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12:27:50 <Guest5> Hi, I am new to haskell I have read a book or two, I understand the concept of a monoid but I can not imagine-find an example where I would apply the concept of monoid to solve a typical daily programming problem, can somebody kindly give me an example or point me in the write direction, thanks
12:29:18 <merijn> I think I had some AoC examples using monoids
12:29:25 <merijn> (spoilers for AoC, obviously ;))
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12:29:56 <geekosaur> monoid is one of those things that you just don't notice, because they're so common
12:30:50 <jackdk> Guest5: many operations of teh form "summarise a list of something into some other data structure" rely on something monoidal
12:30:53 <merijn> Guest5: Some examples of monoids you've used without noticing: Sum (summing numbers), Product (multiplying numbers), Min/Max (self explanatory), concatenating lists
12:31:57 <merijn> hmm, mostly some examples using Endo, not super accessible, I guess
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12:33:23 <geekosaur> I'd say Monoid is less something you use to solve a problem, than it is a principled way to "overload" various similar operations like adding numbers together, concatenating strings, etc.
12:33:29 <jackdk> There is a library, `monoidal-containers`, which provides wrappers around the standard map interfaces so that you have `instance (Ord k, Monoid v) => Monoid (Map k v)`, where `(<>)` is `unionWith (<>)` (which means "union the two maps together, but where you have a key collision, combine the values using `(<>)`")
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12:34:15 <maralorn> Most common Monoid in programming is probably String/Text with concatenation.
12:34:19 <Guest5> yes, thats what i mean, i understand the concept and the examples you mention, I found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BovTQeDK7XI, where he uses monoid to solve a problem , I was wondering if there is an easier example
12:34:39 <merijn> jackdk: :O
12:34:52 <merijn> jackdk: brb, getting rid of containers everywhere
12:35:23 <merijn> It uses Semigroup rather than Monoid, but generalised FizzBuzz is a nice example :p
12:35:26 <merijn> https://gist.github.com/merijn/cd0e7918a96fe913cf7d66833e8da354
12:35:28 <jackdk> merijn: yeah it's handy. Unfortunately because it wants to provide as many instances as possible, it depends on `lens` for some stuff that's not in `indexed-traverable`
12:36:11 <merijn> It's nice, because you can do FizzBuzz with something other than string concatenation :p
12:36:15 <jackdk> Guest5: so I have found many times that when I want to process a list of things into a map, it often comes out as a `foldMap` call where the monoid is a `MonoidalMap k v` from `monoidal-containers`.
12:36:38 <maralorn> Guest5: I always use the Monoid operator <> for Strings. E.g. "Hello" <> " World!"
12:36:56 <Guest5> thanks all
12:37:02 <maralorn> That's a easy an example as I can think of.
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12:40:46 <lyle> Guest5: Have you looked at https://wiki.haskell.org/All_About_Monads
12:41:02 <geekosaur> monoidsm not monads
12:41:07 <geekosaur> monoids, not monads
12:41:08 <lyle> Sorry, misread Monoid vs. Monad.
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12:43:40 <jackdk> Guest5: oh, the classic word count example that google used to use when talking about MapReduce
12:44:04 <Guest5> thanks, its also useful and i had not see it !
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12:44:11 <jackdk> Guest5: suppose you have a list of words, and they've been normalised (let's say downcased, no punctuation, etc.)
12:44:21 <jackdk> =(
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12:45:47 <Guest5> ah, work distribution
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12:46:01 <jackdk> Guest5: suppose you have a list of words, and they've been normalised (let's say downcased, no punctuation, etc.)
12:46:23 <jackdk> then "build a word count" is basically foldMap using the `MonoidalMap Text (Sum Int)` monoid
12:46:43 <Guest5> thanks
12:47:05 <merijn> Or "fromListWith (<>) . map (,Sum 1)"
12:47:28 <jackdk> (You could also think of MapReduce etc as kinda like "distributed `foldMap`", where the "reduce" step is often going to be some kind of monoid)
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12:55:34 <maralorn> I have been accused of "monoidism".^^
12:56:12 <merijn> jackdk: MapReduce does assume a symmetric monoid, though
12:56:20 <maralorn> before
12:57:42 <jackdk> merijn: you might be right, I haven't really played much with it. At least with a monoid you know it's safe to accumulate as many results as you can within a node before you send that result to another node, and you can accumulate results between nodes in a treewise fashion
12:58:17 <jackdk> merijn: Also this is a neat little package if you want to rely on that fact: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/commutative-semigroups
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13:04:14 <Guest5> do you know of a good course or book that concentrate on explaining exemplify easily using monoid, semigroup, applicative, monad, etc, thats where I always get lost and don't feel the ground, down to earth usage, I guess I have problems from going from the abstract to the concrete, specially when spoken to in abstract terms, maybe the other way
13:04:14 <Guest5> round from concrete to abstract is easier for me, how did you get around with it, wrapping your head for the first time
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13:05:22 <geekosaur> I pretty much figured out monoid from math, realizing there was a similarity between (+,0) and (*,1)
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13:07:33 <tdammers> (+,0) and (*, 1) have more in common than just the monoid though
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13:09:50 <hpc> i noticed the similarities between numeric/boolean/relational/datatype algebras, but somehow managed to not know what the word "algebra" meant until i saw it on wikipedia :D
13:12:03 <hpc> Guest5: some of that just comes from familiarity with various examples
13:12:15 <geekosaur> tdammers, sure, but I was 7 at the time (and had managed to miss numtiplication entirely until I had to catch up quickly to fit into a normal class)
13:12:21 <geekosaur> *multiplication
13:12:27 <geekosaur> how did that happen
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13:13:31 <Guest5> Do you know of a good source for such examples, that maybe easy and explained ?
13:14:03 <carbolymer> is there a simple way to create a file handle to memory? I need to mock writing / reading from /to a file in a test
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13:15:44 <hpc> for me, it was looking at random stuff on hackage and hanging out here
13:15:48 <geekosaur> carbolymer, iirc you'd have to patch it into Handle somehow, it supports multiple backends but they're defined by an ADT you can't modify
13:16:05 <carbolymer> geekosaur: ugh, I wanted to avoid creating Handles manually
13:16:10 <carbolymer> hmm there's `createPipe`
13:16:11 <Guest5> thanks
13:16:13 <hpc> parsers/interpreters are a good place to start though, there's some stuff around where you write a scheme implementation and such
13:16:14 <geekosaur> (GHC.Handle)
13:16:44 <merijn> carbolymer: I mean, you can use /dev/null and /dev/random for that?
13:16:58 <merijn> Depending on exactly what you need/want
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13:17:28 <carbolymer> merijn: I'm testing logger so I need to give it FD and then consume contents and deserialize from JSON
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13:20:41 <hpc> carbolymer: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/GHC-IO-Handle.html#v:mkFileHandle looks promising?
13:21:20 <carbolymer> I guess, I'm already using openTempFile
13:21:33 <carbolymer> so I was wondering if I can totally avoid this "file" step
13:21:35 <hpc> make some IORef-ish data type, write a few big instances, and then mkFileHandle
13:22:00 <hpc> then break it out into another package because that would be pretty handy elsewhere
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13:22:26 <maerwald> carbolymer: afaik the ouroboros protocal does some file-mocking to use io-sim
13:22:31 <maerwald> but I can't find it
13:23:41 <carbolymer> hpc: thanks, that should work in theory, but I think it's too much of a hassle for not much of a gain ;)
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13:24:04 <carbolymer> maerwald: thanks, I'll check it in the meantime
13:24:09 <maerwald> carbolymer: https://github.com/input-output-hk/ouroboros-network/blob/master/ouroboros-consensus-test/test-storage/Test/Ouroboros/Storage/FS/StateMachine.hs
13:25:39 <carbolymer> maerwald: that's a lot... I forgot that there's more than just writing and reading from FS
13:26:15 <hpc> hmm, maybe i will write it myself later then
13:26:21 <maerwald> well, you can mock all this with an effects system too
13:26:28 <hpc> it'll be nice to have something legitimately useful on my github instead of just jokes and experiments :D
13:26:29 <maerwald> like freer etc
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13:38:02 <dminuoso> carbolymer | so I was wondering if I can totally avoid this "file" step
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13:38:27 <dminuoso> The filesystem is a rather convenient and "portable" way to offer system services.
13:38:55 <geekosaur> yeh, I was thinking the same. memory-resident files strike me as a waste of memory best used elsewhere
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13:41:44 <dminuoso> carbolymer: And you can combine the two of them, even! If your host uses ramfs (e.g. on /tmp) you get the best of both worlds.
13:42:06 <dminuoso> Except you dont need to worry about all the gritty details on how to mock file system access in-memory.
13:42:14 <dminuoso> It's been done for you already
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13:42:37 <dminuoso> (Err tmpfs, not ramfs)
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14:40:07 <maerwald> why can't I compose quasiquoters?
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14:45:03 <kuribas> ugh, the "extra argument" in generics must be one of the stupidest decisions for all of the haskell standard library.
14:47:25 <sonny> Let's say there is a function to allocate memory in Haskell called reserve. What would it's signature look like?
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14:49:32 <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/Foreign-Marshal-Alloc.html#v:malloc
14:50:22 <sonny> wow
14:51:15 <sonny> I wondered if it was possible in the type system, and it is
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14:54:15 <tdammers> why would it not?
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14:55:29 <maerwald> could we implement a borrow checker with the current linear types?
14:55:33 <merijn> I mean, arguably stuff like MVar does the same thing
14:55:41 <merijn> maerwald: A limited version, I think?
14:56:11 <maerwald> afair, rusts borrow checker has some interaction with the type checker
14:56:30 <Hecate> like St?
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15:36:47 <Guest19> Hi, guys, I saw "migration to a fully Clang-based C toolchain, a deep refactoring of the linker, and many fixes in WinIO" in GHC 9.4.1_alpha2 release notes.
15:36:47 <Guest19> Should I be excited that when 9.4 goes stable, windows link times will go down to "usable" (for now, simple app that basically uses only Monomer takes ~50 secs to just link) ?
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15:38:31 <geekosaur> yes, reports from #ghc is linking is much faster on windows now
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15:39:25 <geekosaur> s/is/are/
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15:40:50 <sm> 🎉
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15:43:12 <Guest19> COOOL :-)))
15:43:12 <Guest19> second question: I use ghcup && stack, probably no chance to easily plug the alpha into this config ?
15:43:13 <Guest19> PS: "linking is much faster" is correct ("linkings are much faster", but I never saw the plural form used)
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15:43:52 <maerwald> Guest19: just use stackage with cabal
15:48:34 <Guest19> maerwald: any link, plz ? (how do i plug it together to not disturb anything ? I was under the impression that "use stack, avoid direct cabal use" was recommended for "newbs" (some Haskell experience, but last time I deployed Haskell production app was some 10 years ago)
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15:49:42 <hpc> cabal's acquired pretty much all of stack's features since then
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15:51:19 <maerwald> Guest19: install cabal prerelease and then use the new import feature: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-project.html?highlight=import#conditionals-and-imports
15:51:40 <maerwald> you'd point it to e.g. https://www.stackage.org/lts-18.26/cabal.config
15:52:04 <maerwald> to install pre-release read https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/#pre-release-channels
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15:52:36 <Guest19> should I clean my PC of ghcup / stack just for good measure (at least not leaving garbage behind ? i can install/manage my own MSYS2 if needed) ?
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15:53:17 <maerwald> you want to use cabal without ghcup? That sounds like fun
15:55:31 <Guest19> Back then, I was used to install GHC by hand (binary release), and muddle through a shitload of dependency problems.
15:56:08 <Guest19> but the docs are probably gonna tell me what to do, and clean install probably never hurt anything ;-)
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15:58:44 <Guest19> thanks for the info
15:58:54 <maerwald> well, I don't understand your question then
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16:08:36 <Guest19> simple: I have at least two version of ghc, a version of stack and who knows how many "cached compiles" of bunch of libs through stack
16:08:37 <Guest19> [you build it; then you added some dep, deleted the lock file, compiled; then changed some more deps ...]
16:08:37 <Guest19> last time I checked, there was no garbage collection for these precompiled artifacts, I don't know squat about how cabal eveolved ...
16:08:38 <Guest19> clean install it will be, at least unless I know what happens under the hood (and that I won't investigate until some version of GHC performs reasonably well on windows; sadly, my employer insist on self-sabotaging through long-term windows commitment)
16:09:27 <geekosaur> @where cabalgc
16:09:28 <lambdabot> I know nothing about cabalgc.
16:09:30 <geekosaur> bah
16:09:51 <geekosaur> https://github.com/treblacy/cabalgc
16:10:16 <geekosaur> no idea about for stack, I just hear of people periodically nuking ~/.stack and/or .stack-work
16:10:25 <Guest19> thx for all the fish ;-)
16:11:26 <geekosaur> @where+ cabalgc https://github.com/treblacy/cabalgc
16:11:26 <lambdabot> Okay.
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16:12:34 <maerwald> geekosaur: did you actually try to use that?
16:13:39 <maerwald> there's also https://github.com/phadej/cabal-extras/tree/master/cabal-store-gc
16:13:47 <maerwald> but whenever I tried to use any of those, they broke my store
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16:14:40 <geekosaur> no, but I know its limitations (such as that you have to manually pick stuff to gc, and gcing something in active use can cause problems)
16:15:45 <geekosaur> proper gc's still unavailable for both tools, sadly
16:16:33 <geekosaur> and probably always will be because there's nothing relating or linking together all projects
16:16:43 <Guest19> exactly
16:17:38 <Guest19> did anyone try "time-guided" gc, ie, "nuke anything I haven't touched in <period>"
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16:18:26 <geekosaur> I don't think it knows that information, a given package entry is read-only once built so all it knows is how long ago that happened
16:20:23 <Guest19> well, there is "last access time.
16:20:24 <Guest19> And I would be entirely content with "it might delete something that will be necessary, but in a way it causes no harm / gets rebuilt if needed"
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16:21:27 <geekosaur> last access time isn't always kept on modern systems because it slows things down
16:22:03 <geekosaur> stack and cabal are both supposed to rebuild as necessary, but it's still safer to just nuke everything periodically, sadly
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16:22:42 <Guest19> windows do it (at least I think so) and fof user-data partitions, I wouldn't specify "noatime" mount option.
16:23:03 <geekosaur> dunno what windows does but if a linux filesystem is mounted relatime or noatime you can't really trust the access time
16:23:22 <geekosaur> and on my system (ubuntu) they're all relatime
16:23:52 <Guest19> but yeah, the nuke everything approach worked wonders when things went awry (no GC involved, even)
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16:31:33 <maerwald> you can use cabal-cache, then backup the stuff you need via it, then nuke your store and pull the backup
16:31:50 <maerwald> https://github.com/haskell-works/cabal-cache
16:31:53 <Guest19> just off the top of your head, how expensive would the calculation be, if you could point some imagined GC to the directory(ies) containing your projects ?
16:31:54 <Guest19> would that be a viable path to "pin the GC roots" ?
16:32:23 <maerwald> Guest19: that's what https://github.com/phadej/cabal-extras/tree/master/cabal-store-gc does afaik
16:33:07 <maerwald> you add project roots (plan.json)
16:33:27 <maerwald> it still broke my store
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16:35:47 <Guest19> aah, i visited the link, but there was no readme.
16:35:48 <Guest19> any insight on what went bad ?
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17:25:04 <sm> Guest9265: stack-clean-old is a nice tool for cleaning ghcs and corresponding package deps installed by stack
17:25:21 <sm> for cleaning ghcs installed by ghcup, use ghcup itself of course
17:25:41 <sm> sorry, I meant Guest19
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18:45:38 <quartz_> i'm trying to make a length-indexed vector using functional dependencies but the following code doesn't seem to be working with the `append` in any of the patterns.
18:45:43 <quartz_> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/UCeEqmnx/raw/1
18:46:01 <quartz_> append :: Add m n p => Vector m a -> Vector n a -> Vector p a
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18:50:14 <quartz_> for `append Empty ys`, the error is "could not deduce n ~ p from the context m ~ Zero". but shouldn't `instance Zero b b` make `n ~ p` if `m ~ Zero`?
18:51:06 <[exa]> so `m` is a constraint?
18:51:16 <[exa]> (I guess you meant `m ~ Z`
18:52:07 <quartz_> in the pattern `append Empty ys`, `m ~ Zero` right?
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18:53:40 <quartz_> i've added `Add m n p` constraint to `append`. shouldn't that make `p` to be `n` in that case. an equivalent example with type family `append :: Vector m a -> Vector n a -> Vector (Add m n) a` works where `Add` is a type family.
18:54:06 <[exa]> ah /me found the pastebin link
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18:54:55 <[exa]> quartz_: what about if you're adding a bigger number to a smaller one?
18:55:24 <[exa]> (and trying to reverse that)
18:56:37 <[exa]> uh wait
18:57:24 <[exa]> yeah you might need to reverse the second instance rule -- it's evaluated like prolog, against the direction of =>
18:57:43 <[exa]> so this way I'd say it can never reach the `Add Zero b b` case
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19:01:36 <quartz_> oh! i'm sorry that was wrong. the type checking was not terminating. i've replaced it with `instance Add a b c => Add (Succ a) b (Succ c)`.
19:01:58 darksatanic is now known as darkling
19:02:02 <quartz_> the error still persists though.
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19:18:08 <quartz_> might it be related to this https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/345
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19:21:46 <quartz_> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/dQt4yPcd/raw/1
19:21:55 <quartz_> here is the corrected one.
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19:24:39 <[exa]> what's your extension list?
19:26:47 <quartz_> UndecidableInstances MultiParamsTypeclasses FlexibleInstances
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19:32:19 <maerwald> I'm trying to combine a quasi quoter with a parser at compile time, but I can't find a way to fail in the Q monad when I get a Left value. Basically: `QuasiQuoter (\a -> parser `appE` quasiQuoter1 a)`. So either I have unsafe error inside `parser` that can't be forced properly or I have to somehow escape the quotation and execute the first quasi quoter at compile time, so I don't have to use
19:32:21 <maerwald> `appE`
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21:38:16 <slack1256> Is there an API on the kernel that we can use to know how congested is a network device?
21:38:57 <slack1256> I got a Foldable that I would like to process concurrently, but the amount of spark I will issue should be correlated by how much bandwith I can use.
21:39:04 <Bulby[m]> hm, you can get signal strength (if that's what the percentage on my status bar is)
21:39:09 <Bulby[m]> idk if this is i3bar or my custom bar
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21:39:18 <slack1256> s_spark_sparks_
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21:40:23 <Bulby[m]> looks like I named the variable "qlty" or "strength" (or I stole it from xmobar)
21:40:30 <Bulby[m]> no idea about bandwith
21:40:50 <slack1256> Bulby[m]: That is signal strength to a router I think. This is congestion on a device is measure by how many packet it had to drop to satisfy QoS requeriment on TCP code.
21:41:27 <slack1256> I am probably "holding it wrong", or having a XY problem.
21:41:35 <geekosaur> the problem with doing that is that it changes dynamically and you may still end up either choking or leaving some bandwidth unused. usually it's best to choose a congestion algorithm and let the kernel sort it out
21:42:04 <Bulby[m]> I find that on arch it tends to eat up all the bandwidth
21:42:19 <Bulby[m]> just in general
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21:48:32 <geekosaur> https://superuser.com/questions/992919/how-to-check-the-tcp-congestion-control-algorithm-flavour-in-ubuntu fwiw
21:49:21 <geekosaur> note that you can set it per connection so it may work better to specify the congestion algorithm on your socket
21:54:01 <[exa]> slack1256: you can check txqueue size and retransmit counts, that's usually a pretty good sign of congestion (if your device is really the congested thing)
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21:55:38 <[exa]> (spoiler: unless your wifi is bad, the device usually isn't the congested thing)
21:55:41 <jackdk> maerwald: `fail` seems the the official way to do this (there are tools for catching in teh `Quasi` typeclass, and specific mentions of `fail`), and since all it's going to do is stop compilation it's not that unsafe.
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22:09:48 <slack1256> [exa]: Awesome, those were the keyword for what I was looking for.
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23:00:00 <Bulby[m]> `put Double` decodes it into an Integer and Int 😠
23:01:00 <Bulby[m]> is there a function that actually gets the IEEE bytes
23:04:31 <Bulby[m]> reading the format... it has odd bytes that don't really make sense 🥲
23:06:05 <dsal> You mean you want the in-memory representation of Haskell's Double?
23:06:19 <Bulby[m]> hm, I guess? if it's IEEE?
23:06:37 <geekosaur> it is
23:06:52 <geekosaur> the format binary uses is oddball
23:09:11 <Bulby[m]> rust threw a hissy fit so that means something is wrong on the haskell side
23:10:16 <Bulby[m]> and (Integer, Int) is something wrong
23:11:13 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/8.10.7/docs/html/libraries/base-4.14.3.0/Prelude.html#v:decodeFloat is what binary is doing
23:11:20 <Bulby[m]> yeah
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23:15:24 <geekosaur> someone was doing a fork of network that used IEEE format but I can't find it in my logs now :(
23:15:24 <EvanR> I know the ieee binary format for floats is standardized, but I feel better about decodeFloat regardless xD
23:15:36 <geekosaur> er, of binary. why do I keepo saying network for it?
23:15:40 <Bulby[m]> rust doesn't feel the same ☹️
23:15:51 <EvanR> unsurprised
23:16:05 <Bulby[m]> which is the whole reason I noticed this
23:16:06 <EvanR> "everything is literally 1s or 0s"
23:16:22 <geekosaur> decodeFloat is wrong anyway since it can't pass Inf/-Inf or NaN
23:16:27 <dsal> LOL at the guy who doesn't have a quantum computer.
23:16:44 <EvanR> well, qubits are also 1s or 0s
23:16:45 <EvanR> xD
23:16:50 <Bulby[m]> even worse now: I can't derive `Binary`
23:17:24 <EvanR> +/- infinity and nan are second banana anyways
23:17:40 <Bulby[m]> true, I won't ever emit it
23:17:45 <EvanR> and minus zero
23:19:05 <Bulby[m]> still, this isn't about haskell
23:19:10 <Bulby[m]> this is about making rust happy
23:19:26 <Bulby[m]> (by emiting good bytecode)
23:21:03 <dsal> Yeah, it seems kind of reasonable you can't get directly to the bytes, but you should also be able to build out those bytes without doing your own IEEE encoding.
23:21:30 <Bulby[m]> hm, the encoding for integer also seems """special"""
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23:22:06 <dsal> The documentation suggests that it's doing the right thing: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/binary-0.8.9.0/docs/Data-Binary-Put.html#v:putDoublebe
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23:22:22 <Bulby[m]> it better 😠
23:22:26 <Bulby[m]> idk why put does that
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23:23:40 <dsal> Which works via https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/GHC-Float.html#v:castDoubleToWord64
23:24:06 <geekosaur> what would you expect Integer to do, btw?
23:24:20 <dsal> Which `put` are you referring to?
23:24:56 <dsal> Oh, I see. I've only ever used the specific things I expect on the wire.
23:25:00 <Bulby[m]> idk what integer does - not in the mood to read it fully
23:25:36 <dsal> Oh. I see. I finally caught up. heh
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23:26:36 <Bulby[m]> i only recently noticed this because I only recently actually started writing the VM
23:27:03 <Bulby[m]> it panicked LOL
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23:27:55 <EvanR> don't write your own ieee encoder, that's almost certainly in a hackage package
23:28:08 <Bulby[m]> i haven't
23:28:18 <geekosaur> I ask about Integer because there isn't even an IEEE standard for it. And if rust expects (say) libtommath internal format, there's not a whole lot you can do about it
23:29:29 <Bulby[m]> yay it works i think
23:29:43 <EvanR> come to think of it, I rarely see anyone trading floats using ieee format...
23:29:50 <EvanR> between processes
23:29:57 <Bulby[m]> hm
23:30:04 <Bulby[m]> what encoding do they use?
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23:30:13 <EvanR> text, of some sort
23:30:19 <EvanR> or integers
23:30:23 <Bulby[m]> huh
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