Logs on 2022-06-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:34 | <hololeap> | I was going to ask a question about this, but I think I figured it out |
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| 01:01:52 | <johnw> | you wouldn't be able to implement that |
| 01:02:04 | <johnw> | just hoping that's what you figured out :) |
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| 01:02:29 | <dolio> | Just ask the djinni. |
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| 01:27:03 | <zzz> | johnw: i spent 10 minutes playing with sequence before it hit me |
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| 02:04:33 | <hololeap> | johnw, you can, if a) z is a monoid b) you already have a z lying around |
| 02:05:43 | <hololeap> | so, I'm kinda just throwing the INLINE pragma on all of my pointfree functions. is this reasonable? |
| 02:07:32 | <DigitalKiwi> | idk sounds kind of pointless |
| 02:07:37 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 02:07:45 | <monochrom> | I think you should benchmark. |
| 02:07:55 | <DigitalKiwi> | ba dum tsch |
| 02:09:54 | <hololeap> | I'm just wondering if this is a reasonable heuristic, not really asking if it will _always_ speed things up, but if it will speed _some_ things up without causing any problems |
| 02:10:29 | <monochrom> | Then I don't know. |
| 02:12:08 | <hololeap> | also, is there a wrapper that will transform a semigroup into a monoid, kind of like how MaybeApply will transform an Apply to an Applicative? |
| 02:12:29 | <hololeap> | something in base or semigroupoids that I'm just not spotting |
| 02:13:00 | <hololeap> | oh, I guess Maybe works |
| 02:13:13 | <hololeap> | there it is :) |
| 02:13:22 | <monochrom> | Oh haha it's already in base. |
| 02:13:33 | <hololeap> | thanks, monochrom |
| 02:13:39 | <EvanR> | +1 to that |
| 02:14:30 | <zzz> | lol |
| 02:14:57 | <zzz> | thanks for Nothing |
| 02:15:09 | <monochrom> | hahahaha |
| 02:15:40 | <monochrom> | Secret Santa put it in base! |
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| 02:29:08 | <hololeap> | :t \z = swap . first (fromMaybe z) . traverse (swap . second Just) |
| 02:29:10 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 02:29:18 | <hololeap> | :t \z -> swap . first (fromMaybe z) . traverse (swap . second Just) |
| 02:29:19 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Semigroup a) => a -> t (b, a) -> (t b, a) |
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| 02:38:03 | <zzz> | ok question: |
| 02:39:38 | <zzz> | traverse is defined in terms of sequence, and sequence is in turn defined in terms of traverse |
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| 02:40:42 | <zzz> | more specifically |
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| 02:40:55 | <zzz> | traverse f = sequenceA . fmap f |
| 02:40:58 | <zzz> | and |
| 02:41:13 | <zzz> | sequenceA = traverse id |
| 02:42:04 | <zzz> | is this a "lie" or am i missing something? |
| 02:44:50 | <zzz> | ok nvm i was missing something |
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| 02:45:55 | <zzz> | more specitically |
| 02:46:26 | <zzz> | {-# MINIMAL traverse | sequenceA #-} |
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| 03:04:15 | <dsal> | `sequenceA` always lies and `traverse` always tells the truth, so it works. |
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| 03:18:09 | <zzz> | it could work even if you didn't know which is which |
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| 03:35:04 | <Axman6> | "SequenceA: I am lying" -> Exception: <<loop>> |
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| 03:40:26 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 03:51:55 | <Axman6> | Reminds me of my favourite (and only) logic joke: Three logicians walk into a bar. The bartender asks "Would you all like a drink?". The first one say "I don' |
| 03:52:12 | <Axman6> | "I don't know", the second one says "I don't know", and the third one says "Yes". |
| 03:52:31 | <Axman6> | says* |
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| 05:09:48 | <moet> | hi.. i'm running `hoogle server --port=8088` in a virtual machine guest and trying to browse it from the VM host. firefox requests the page in https, but then upgrades all the resources (css, etc) to https and cannot load them (because hoogle isn't serving https) |
| 05:10:12 | <moet> | i can't tell if this is an issue with hoogle or with firefox, so i tried out safari and the same thing is happening.. this makes me think it's an issue with hoogle |
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| 05:11:40 | <moet> | any ideas about what to try next? i'm able to curl (over http) the hoogle html and css and other resources |
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| 05:12:54 | <triteraflops> | Ho! What news? |
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| 05:14:43 | <triteraflops> | I'm trying to wrap my head around large objects. |
| 05:14:47 | <triteraflops> | hm. |
| 05:15:13 | <triteraflops> | Reading this back, maybe I should stop trying to wrap my head around large objects. |
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| 05:16:07 | <triteraflops> | anyway, large objects shouldn't be copied. A mutation can be represented as a pure operation if the large object is not aliased. |
| 05:16:50 | <triteraflops> | And haskell will not automatically mutate large objects, even when it could. Which means the compiler can't detect whether an object is aliased. |
| 05:16:58 | <triteraflops> | But why is that a hard problem? |
| 05:17:09 | <triteraflops> | Why can't GHC detect this? |
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| 05:19:46 | <moet> | i'm not sure i understand what you're seeing vs what you want to see triteraflops... can you state it in terms of this example? `let foo = Foo{field1=Just ..., ..., fieldN=...}; let bar = foo{field1=Nothing}; in ...` assume that Foo contains many large fields |
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| 05:20:41 | <triteraflops> | moet: the cleanest example I can think of is a function I wrote recently which speeds itself up using a hashmap. |
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| 05:20:51 | <triteraflops> | moet: let me see if I can find it. |
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| 05:25:30 | <triteraflops> | moet: aw hell no lol. This example I found is actually needlessly complicated for demonstrating the basic point. |
| 05:30:52 | <davean> | triteraflops: why do you think it is reasonable to tell if something has multiple reference? |
| 05:31:11 | <triteraflops> | davean: not all the time. Just some of the time. |
| 05:32:13 | <triteraflops> | if multiple references can only arise from some kind of fork of the form (f x x), then you should be able to tell. |
| 05:32:25 | <davean> | Thats not the only way it can |
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| 05:32:32 | <triteraflops> | davean: how else? |
| 05:32:40 | <davean> | litterly every reference to it creates a reference |
| 05:33:11 | <davean> | They only get cleaned up when computation is forced, or the GC simplifies |
| 05:33:22 | <davean> | the only thing that knows how many things refer to some thing is the GC |
| 05:33:46 | <davean> | every time you say something like "fieldN x" thats a reference that doesn't get resolved until demand |
| 05:33:53 | <davean> | EVERYTHING IS A HELD REFERENCE |
| 05:33:59 | <davean> | EVERYTHING |
| 05:34:22 | <triteraflops> | so maybe it can't be done in runtime |
| 05:34:31 | <triteraflops> | but perhaps it can be done at compile time |
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| 05:35:20 | <triteraflops> | as long as the functions are inspectable by ghc. FFI functions are clearly ineligible |
| 05:35:37 | <triteraflops> | Can't you tell how many times a function uses one of its inputs? |
| 05:35:40 | <triteraflops> | at compile time? |
| 05:35:57 | <davean> | Its not about how many times it uses it |
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| 05:36:13 | <davean> | "f x" that x, how many times is it already referenced? |
| 05:36:24 | <davean> | You can optimize it to produce fewer intermediate copies |
| 05:36:33 | <davean> | but you can't know how many times x is already referenced |
| 05:37:05 | <triteraflops> | Sometimes, you can. |
| 05:37:37 | <triteraflops> | let x' = copy x in g x' |
| 05:37:45 | <davean> | There is no "copy x" |
| 05:37:49 | <davean> | but lets go simpler |
| 05:37:50 | <triteraflops> | but there could be |
| 05:38:07 | <davean> | ok, how many times is the argument referenced if I say "f (Foo ...)" |
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| 05:38:16 | <triteraflops> | if there were, there could be some kind of compiler optimisation for it |
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| 05:38:42 | <triteraflops> | davean: which argument |
| 05:38:50 | <davean> | (Foo ...) |
| 05:38:56 | <davean> | How many times is (Foo ...) referenced? |
| 05:39:13 | <triteraflops> | are we f, or are we calling f? |
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| 05:39:34 | <davean> | Calling f say |
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| 05:39:59 | <triteraflops> | (Foo 45) is brand new, so there's only one of them |
| 05:40:08 | <davean> | there are between 0 and N of them |
| 05:40:24 | <triteraflops> | It's brand new. How could there be? |
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| 05:41:19 | <davean> | well if f is inlined, then Foo is never constructed |
| 05:41:32 | <davean> | if the same code exists elsewhere, it might be lifted an be passed as a reference |
| 05:41:42 | <davean> | Litterly between 0 and N copies |
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| 05:41:55 | <davean> | 1 is not even the probable case |
| 05:42:54 | triteraflops | looks up litterly in the wiktionary |
| 05:43:05 | × | Batzy quits (~quassel@user/batzy) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 05:43:13 | <davean> | Literally |
| 05:43:33 | <davean> | I was in no way being anything but exact in that statement and you can't narrow it down more |
| 05:45:06 | <triteraflops> | so... making no demands on the number of references to a potential (Foo 45) allows for optimisations that would be impossible otherwise? |
| 05:45:14 | <triteraflops> | interesting |
| 05:45:27 | <triteraflops> | but would preclude other optimisations that could be done and may be more important |
| 05:46:13 | <davean> | if I say (field1 f)+(field2 f) how many refences to f are there? |
| 05:46:36 | <triteraflops> | ah, well, this is a clear example of a form (f x x) |
| 05:46:58 | <triteraflops> | so you couldn't use compile time analysis to allow mutation |
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| 05:48:08 | <triteraflops> | on the other hand, if it were h . g . f $ (Foo 45) |
| 05:48:13 | <davean> | well really? then what about "add f = (field1 f)+(field2 f)" |
| 05:48:41 | <davean> | I *really* don't think you get what non-strict means. |
| 05:48:51 | <davean> | I already said it could eliminate intermediate copies |
| 05:48:51 | <triteraflops> | oh great, now it's recursive |
| 05:48:59 | <davean> | theres nothing recursive there |
| 05:49:14 | <triteraflops> | ohhh now I get it |
| 05:49:29 | <triteraflops> | This is a function definition, not one part of a let statement |
| 05:49:30 | <triteraflops> | right |
| 05:49:54 | <triteraflops> | so the add function you define might be OK, or might not, depending on the type of (field1 f) |
| 05:50:11 | <triteraflops> | If it's an Int, say, then maybe you could get away with it. |
| 05:50:13 | <davean> | Say they're both Int |
| 05:50:38 | <triteraflops> | The simplest optimisation algorithm would look at add, see that it is using f twice, and give up |
| 05:51:15 | <triteraflops> | I'm basically looking for the simplest case where haskell could prove mutation were possible |
| 05:51:54 | <davean> | So I'm getting a bit tired, so I'm just going to say again that the compiler can eliminate intermediate copies - thats standard code optimization using local reasoning, but the mutation you claim requires global reasoning. |
| 05:52:09 | <triteraflops> | not always |
| 05:52:14 | <triteraflops> | it can be made local with explicit copy |
| 05:52:24 | <triteraflops> | or with the creation of a constant object |
| 05:52:25 | <davean> | No you can't |
| 05:52:34 | <davean> | haskell is non-strict |
| 05:52:40 | <davean> | you can't even make the copy happen |
| 05:52:49 | <davean> | "copy x" is its self a reference to x |
| 05:53:06 | <triteraflops> | What about seq? |
| 05:53:11 | <davean> | what about seq? |
| 05:53:18 | <triteraflops> | Haskell isn't always non-strict |
| 05:53:23 | <triteraflops> | strictness can be enforced |
| 05:53:39 | <davean> | Here is where I direct you to the report and you learn what seq is |
| 05:53:54 | <davean> | but also, all you're doing here is creating MORE copying not less |
| 05:54:02 | <triteraflops> | davean: You make interesting assumptions of my knowledge. |
| 05:54:05 | <davean> | Because this is *strictly more copies than eliminating intermediate copies* |
| 05:54:22 | <davean> | triteraflops: They're not assumptions, they're responses to what you're saying |
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| 05:55:20 | <triteraflops> | If a function needs to change a large object a million times before returning it, it would be nice not having to copy it every time. |
| 05:55:36 | <triteraflops> | So you do one copy, maybe, depending, and use that copy to prove mutation is safe. |
| 05:55:40 | <davean> | So hold up |
| 05:55:52 | <davean> | you just said a different statement, and I keep saying it can infact eliminate intermediate copies |
| 05:56:08 | <davean> | it never needs to produce anything but the final returned thing |
| 05:56:23 | <davean> | infact, almost never will - also for the same reasons as above |
| 05:57:09 | <triteraflops> | so if I insert 100 million ints into a hashmap using a single function, haskell will not make a copy every time? |
| 05:57:57 | <davean> | it depends on the exact code, but often no, Haskell is non-strict |
| 05:58:28 | <triteraflops> | copy elimination does not necessarily follow from laziness. |
| 05:58:46 | <davean> | Correct, I said it depends on the exact code |
| 05:58:50 | <davean> | also I didn't say lazy |
| 05:59:06 | <triteraflops> | You mean to say lazy and strict aren't opposites? |
| 05:59:10 | <davean> | Correct |
| 05:59:14 | <triteraflops> | oh bloody hell |
| 05:59:32 | <triteraflops> | This might help explain some of the confusing. |
| 05:59:35 | <triteraflops> | *ion |
| 05:59:55 | <davean> | lazy and strict are on opposite sides, there are a few other things over with lazy, and there is an entire ocean in between |
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| 06:01:06 | <davean> | This is why I referenced the Haskell Report when you brought up seq |
| 06:01:46 | <triteraflops> | "Lazy and strict aren't opposites. They're *opposites*."——davean |
| 06:03:18 | <davean> | I mean Europe are Egypt are on opposite sides of the med. but Egypt isn't the opposite side, its some of what isn't Europe. |
| 06:03:33 | <davean> | and there is the med inbetween |
| 06:03:48 | <davean> | Haskell is non-strict, it isn't lazy |
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| 06:04:24 | <triteraflops> | This single sentence contradicts every description of haskell I've ever read. |
| 06:04:52 | <davean> | The report is clear about haskell being non-strict |
| 06:05:15 | <davean> | things CAN be eagerly evaluated if it doesn't violate some information rules |
| 06:05:20 | <davean> | and infact is |
| 06:05:30 | <davean> | in GHC and other implimentations |
| 06:05:41 | <pavonia> | What's the difference beween non-strict and lazy? |
| 06:06:25 | <davean> | pavonia: basicly with non-strict you don't see bottoms from undemanded computations |
| 06:06:34 | <davean> | pavonia: but with laziness non-demanded computations are not evaluated |
| 06:06:56 | <davean> | so Haskell can be strict up to the point that it would prove it wasn't lazy |
| 06:07:07 | <triteraflops> | So, haskell *can* use static analysis to avoid copying large objects? |
| 06:07:19 | <davean> | triteraflops: *head desk* |
| 06:07:47 | <davean> | triteraflops: I can use static analysis to avoid making the copies in the first place, locally |
| 06:08:07 | <davean> | there are some global things one could do, but they're VERY limited |
| 06:08:12 | <pavonia> | I don't understand that expanation, tbh |
| 06:08:19 | <davean> | pavonia: ok, uh |
| 06:08:25 | <triteraflops> | Your explanations are pretty cryptic really. |
| 06:08:43 | <davean> | so like a Haskell implimentation can specualatively evaluate something, or fuse computation |
| 06:09:36 | <triteraflops> | It just seems like you're getting really upset at my choice of words, and repeating what I said, only using different words, rather than just saying yes or no |
| 06:09:54 | <davean> | triteraflops: But the details are all that matter here |
| 06:10:09 | <davean> | This is a very exacting thing |
| 06:11:25 | <triteraflops> | It is pretty clear that the answer to "So, haskell *can* use static analysis to avoid copying large objects?" is yes, right now. |
| 06:11:43 | <triteraflops> | or at least a "sometimes" |
| 06:11:46 | <triteraflops> | which is also a yes |
| 06:11:57 | <davean> | triteraflops: It can use static analysis to avoid making copies, it can't use it to allow mutation really. |
| 06:12:20 | <davean> | Not in any practical sense at least to the later |
| 06:12:22 | <triteraflops> | maybe it depends on your definition of mutation |
| 06:12:39 | <triteraflops> | My idea of mutation is allowing x' = f x to reuse x's memory |
| 06:12:40 | <davean> | one is a code optimization, one is a data dependency thing. |
| 06:12:57 | <triteraflops> | at least sometimes |
| 06:13:12 | <davean> | yah, and that it can't do |
| 06:13:19 | <davean> | Not sanely almsot ever at least |
| 06:13:36 | <davean> | Some VERY local cases, it could, but by not forming them like that in the first place really |
| 06:13:49 | <triteraflops> | and I'm saying that static analysis can be easily conceived which would allow the memory reuse. |
| 06:14:24 | <davean> | and I'm saying you don't get how fast and easily references leak depending on strictness - this depends on EXACTLY how the entire thing compiles |
| 06:14:28 | <triteraflops> | You just need a new object to start or a data dependency-breaking operation. Some kind of copy. |
| 06:14:49 | <davean> | once you're copying it, thats the one copy you might make anyway |
| 06:14:58 | <davean> | because all we need to get out is the end result |
| 06:15:33 | <Axman6> | Haskell hets a hell of a lot easier to understand when you realise it's basically all just case statements - and because of that, lots of optimisation can be built - like if you have case Foo a b c of Bar ... -> ...; Foo x y z -> res - you can eliminate that Foo ever being constructed and just pass in a b c for x y z in res - BAM, no large object recreation |
| 06:15:46 | <Axman6> | triteraflops: coming back to your first question, in your mind, what is a large object? |
| 06:16:05 | <triteraflops> | Axman6: a 4 gigabyte 3D array of float32s |
| 06:16:25 | <Axman6> | Sounds like the perfect thing for the ST monad |
| 06:16:39 | <davean> | right but thats the programmer reusing the memory |
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| 06:17:21 | <triteraflops> | actually davean, it looks like the ST monad is filling the role of the copy operation that you said didn't exist lol |
| 06:17:33 | <davean> | triteraflops: its ... not |
| 06:18:38 | <triteraflops> | Axman6: or a 4GB hashmap being generated incrementally by a single function, then returned |
| 06:19:11 | <triteraflops> | or a hashmap of the same size, requiring updates |
| 06:19:37 | <triteraflops> | this last case, I don't think even the static analysis could allow, but I'd have to think about it. |
| 06:22:04 | <Axman6> | a hashmap isn't a single large object though |
| 06:22:17 | <davean> | It depends on the implimentation |
| 06:22:22 | <davean> | which was a point I made above |
| 06:22:28 | <triteraflops> | Suppose it were made a single large object |
| 06:22:29 | <Axman6> | the Haskell unordered-containers implementation anyway |
| 06:22:38 | <davean> | Axman6: well thats one VERY specific implimentation |
| 06:22:52 | <davean> | its no cuckoo hasking for example |
| 06:23:38 | <davean> | Data.Array cuckoo hashing would be close to a single object |
| 06:24:34 | <davean> | Array !i !i !Int (Array# e) |
| 06:24:42 | <davean> | Not REALLY a single object there, but we're not far off |
| 06:25:11 | <Axman6> | right, but in that case, if you were strictly after the performance and semantics (i.e. not persistent) of a traditional hashmap, then you would need to use true mutation to avoid copying - and luckily, we can do that |
| 06:25:35 | <davean> | Axman6: He was asking about static analysis on Haskell for optimizations though |
| 06:25:45 | <davean> | Not how to impliment something well :)_ |
| 06:25:55 | <davean> | An entirely different discussion |
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| 06:27:40 | <triteraflops> | Well, a hashmap implementation may be forced to copy the entire hashmap in order to add one item, right? |
| 06:28:00 | <Axman6> | sure, I get that, but I'm saying the way we avoid copying large objects is by not copying large objects |
| 06:28:00 | <triteraflops> | Depends on implementation, but it *may* be forced. Suppose this is the kind of implementation we have. |
| 06:28:01 | <davean> | depending on the implimentation and code ... |
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| 06:28:34 | <davean> | triteraflops: the way to provide the semantics to get what you want is probably fusion BTW |
| 06:28:40 | <Axman6> | Data.HashMap wipp copy at most O(log n) objects |
| 06:28:42 | <davean> | Its not Haskell |
| 06:28:56 | <davean> | Axman6: He's specificly not talking about that though |
| 06:29:02 | <Axman6> | Haskell isn't some magic language that automatically solve poor coding |
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| 06:30:03 | <triteraflops> | how about something like hm & insert ka va & insert kb vb & insert kc vc |
| 06:30:16 | <triteraflops> | That's one expression |
| 06:30:30 | <davean> | triteraflops: yes, and it can produce a single new hashmap just fine |
| 06:30:42 | <davean> | theres no reason it has to produce intermediate ones, as I've mentioned before |
| 06:31:44 | <davean> | that can collapse the 3 inserts into one function |
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| 06:31:49 | <triteraflops> | You may have tried explaining it, but think about what it means when you're not understood. Is it really my fault? Usually there is blame on both sides of a communications failure. |
| 06:32:59 | <davean> | Haskell is pure, so "insert ka va & insert kb vb & insert kc vc" can become a single piece of code that produces no intermediate forms |
| 06:33:04 | <triteraflops> | Like, you seem upset right now. My internal audio simulation of your voice has you shouting loudly right now. |
| 06:33:15 | <davean> | I'm not upset, I'm more amused. |
| 06:33:54 | <triteraflops> | That is not what is being communicated right now. Think about what that means. |
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| 06:35:11 | <davean> | so remember when I mentioned optimizing code vs. data flow? |
| 06:35:21 | <davean> | we're right back to that. |
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| 06:35:41 | <triteraflops> | So, that 3x insert example I wrote up there. That can be done with a single copy. |
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| 06:35:57 | <davean> | And I agreed it could be, but not by reusing the memory |
| 06:36:24 | <triteraflops> | The memory is being reused. That's waht a single copy means. |
| 06:36:32 | <davean> | Is it? :) |
| 06:36:33 | <triteraflops> | When it's one copy and not three, memory is being reused. |
| 06:36:41 | <triteraflops> | Just not the original memory. |
| 06:36:46 | <davean> | Ah no, thats one particular way to impliment it |
| 06:36:55 | <davean> | you keep running back into that assumption |
| 06:37:07 | <davean> | you keep thinking about the data, and I keep pointing you at the code |
| 06:37:10 | <davean> | so think abotu the code for a bit |
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| 06:38:15 | <davean> | we don't need to know anything about hm or anything to avoid copies, we can make code that only produces the result |
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| 06:41:36 | <davean> | its write once |
| 06:41:48 | <triteraflops> | Let's try a different example. What is a way of storing a 4GB array of floats in haskell? I know there are several, but basically, just pick one that is actually going to store the floats, and not an array of thunks or something. |
| 06:42:21 | <triteraflops> | I would call such an array a strict array |
| 06:42:21 | <davean> | You'll need an unboxed vector or something |
| 06:42:31 | <triteraflops> | so this vector, then. |
| 06:42:58 | <davean> | YOu're going to run int othe same code thing as above, pure code can collapse into a fused function |
| 06:43:48 | <davean> | but happy to get there naturally |
| 06:44:03 | <triteraflops> | This is 4 gigs of data. It will exist. It must in order for the program to make any sense. |
| 06:44:39 | <davean> | yep |
| 06:44:43 | <triteraflops> | so you could have v & mod na xa & mod nb xb & mod nc xc |
| 06:44:52 | <davean> | what is mod? |
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| 06:45:01 | <triteraflops> | oh yeah mod is already a function |
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| 06:45:22 | <davean> | well usually mod is the modulus operator which doesn't make sense here |
| 06:45:23 | <triteraflops> | ok, import qualified Vector as V |
| 06:45:36 | <triteraflops> | so you could have v & V.mod na xa & V.mod nb xb & V.mod nc xc |
| 06:45:48 | <triteraflops> | short for modify |
| 06:46:12 | <triteraflops> | maybe set would be better |
| 06:46:35 | <triteraflops> | v & set na xa & set nb xb & set nc xc |
| 06:46:50 | <davean> | Right so you know what "set na xa & set nb xb & set nc xc" as a function is? |
| 06:47:27 | <triteraflops> | If I were implementing set, I would be forced to copy the whole array. I can't think of any way around that, besides like a |
| 06:47:29 | <davean> | "copy the input until na, copy in xa, resume copying to nb, copy in xb, resume cpying to nc, copy in xc, resume coping to end" |
| 06:47:41 | <davean> | Thats what that function is |
| 06:48:14 | <davean> | See how theres no intermediate forms of v? |
| 06:48:19 | <davean> | You just got directly to the result |
| 06:49:00 | <triteraflops> | If set's output is a vector, how am I not forced to copy the input? |
| 06:49:05 | <triteraflops> | I clearly am |
| 06:49:18 | <davean> | You're forced to copy the parts of the input that aren't changed |
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| 06:50:59 | <triteraflops> | I can make a Plan type, which could store a list of operations, then get executed. |
| 06:51:21 | <triteraflops> | Then it would look like |
| 06:51:48 | <triteraflops> | v & plan & set na xa & set nb xb & set nc xc & ex |
| 06:52:00 | <triteraflops> | Then only ex would copy |
| 06:52:02 | <triteraflops> | That's betetr |
| 06:52:25 | <davean> | You don't need plan, because Haskell is pure. You just need plan to impliment it yourself. |
| 06:52:46 | <davean> | (Not saying the compiler WILL give you what you want, but morally it can) |
| 06:52:53 | <triteraflops> | morally... |
| 06:53:02 | <davean> | (The code approach I generated is allowed - and infact you will sometimes get it) |
| 06:53:19 | <davean> | because it will optimize the functions into one function |
| 06:53:25 | <triteraflops> | You didn't write any code |
| 06:53:48 | <davean> | "copy the input until na, copy in xa, resume copying to nb, copy in xb, resume cpying to nc, copy in xc, resume coping to end" <-- I'm refering to memory operations here |
| 06:53:58 | <davean> | thats machine pseudo code, not haskell code |
| 06:54:03 | <davean> | the compile doesn't produce Haskell |
| 06:54:28 | <davean> | a sequence of sets is a fatehr |
| 06:54:32 | <davean> | a sequence of sets is a gather operation |
| 06:54:33 | <triteraflops> | I know the compiler doesn't produce Haskell. |
| 06:54:58 | <triteraflops> | It's not a gather unless it is implemented as such |
| 06:55:10 | <davean> | No, it is a gather, it might just not execute as one |
| 06:55:13 | <davean> | haskell is pure |
| 06:55:30 | <davean> | consider why I keep mentioning that |
| 06:55:39 | <lortabac> | davean: I am trying to follow what you say, but I'm lost |
| 06:55:52 | <lortabac> | are you trying to explain rewrite rules? |
| 06:55:56 | <davean> | lortabac: Oh thats kinda expecting, I'm specificly trying to poke at triteraflops' missunderstandings |
| 06:56:03 | <davean> | lortabac: no, I did mention them above though |
| 06:56:08 | <triteraflops> | Ah, Miss Understanding |
| 06:56:19 | <triteraflops> | Sorry, couldn't resist that one. |
| 06:56:24 | <davean> | lortabac: I'm actually trying to explain closer to inlining here |
| 06:57:02 | <triteraflops> | A vector type like this pretty much needs to be internal, and may not be safe. |
| 06:57:09 | <davean> | (I say that since inlining is most of how GHC actualyl gets this in practice) |
| 06:57:17 | <triteraflops> | It is only made pure by things like mandatory opies |
| 06:57:19 | <triteraflops> | copies |
| 06:57:28 | <lortabac> | how does inline avoid building intermediate structures? |
| 06:57:30 | <davean> | triteraflops: Thats actually not true! In practice! |
| 06:58:05 | <triteraflops> | There are internal operations that are not pure. I know there are. |
| 06:58:12 | <triteraflops> | It's how the pure stuff is implemented. |
| 06:58:21 | <triteraflops> | some of it, anyway |
| 06:58:53 | <davean> | triteraflops: Some of it, but nothing I mentioned here about that vector stuff goes outside the pure stuff, strictly standards haskell stuff |
| 06:59:59 | <davean> | lortabac: So the usall analogy I'd use is you just setup the definition of the final thing and you pull it like a thread and leave everything that doesn't end up in it behind, the vector case is a bit more complicated |
| 07:00:10 | <davean> | lortabac: but I think you'd want the setup to get there ... |
| 07:00:25 | <davean> | so lortabac how much do you know coming into this? |
| 07:01:02 | <davean> | and have you ever stepped through inlining manually? |
| 07:01:02 | <lortabac> | well I know what rewrite rules are, and what inlining is, but I don't understand what you are saying |
| 07:01:30 | <davean> | lortabac: do you not know how inlining can avoid intermediate forms in general, or the specific example I gave? |
| 07:01:39 | <triteraflops> | lortabac: so I wrote an example of a series of vector operations that should be possible with a single copy |
| 07:01:53 | <triteraflops> | if v is a 4 GB vector of float32s, say |
| 07:01:57 | <triteraflops> | no thunks |
| 07:02:26 | <triteraflops> | and set n x v modifies v, setting element n to x |
| 07:02:36 | <triteraflops> | you could have an expression of the form |
| 07:02:50 | <triteraflops> | v set na xa & set nb xb & set nc xc |
| 07:02:53 | <triteraflops> | oops |
| 07:02:56 | <triteraflops> | v & set na xa & set nb xb & set nc xc |
| 07:03:13 | <triteraflops> | This should be possible with a single copy |
| 07:03:51 | <triteraflops> | So, davean, you're saying GHC natively supports vector types that can consolidate multiple set operations like this? |
| 07:04:00 | <lortabac> | AFAIK it's not possible with a single copy |
| 07:04:18 | <davean> | triteraflops: I'm saying the ability to do that is inherent to purity |
| 07:04:31 | <lortabac> | not without rewrite rules at least |
| 07:04:31 | <triteraflops> | davean: no it isn't |
| 07:04:42 | <triteraflops> | a pure implementation could copy every time |
| 07:04:48 | <triteraflops> | and still be pure |
| 07:04:51 | <davean> | triteraflops: it *could* it doesn't have to |
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| 07:05:14 | <davean> | because "set na xa & set nb xb & set nc xc" is equivilent to the fused function |
| 07:05:25 | <triteraflops> | davean: well, you just daid that all pure implementations must do this with a single copy |
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| 07:05:27 | <davean> | so the compile is strictly allowed to replace that with the fused version |
| 07:05:28 | <lortabac> | davean: can you show exactly how purity would give you this optimization? |
| 07:05:40 | <davean> | triteraflops: I did *not* say they must, I said it was inherent to purity |
| 07:05:51 | <triteraflops> | That's what inherent to purity means. |
| 07:06:31 | <davean> | lortabac: purity *allows* this particular one, you'd get it from the optimizer in this particular case |
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| 07:06:55 | <lortabac> | davean: ok, but how would you get it without rewrite rules? |
| 07:07:36 | <davean> | lortabac: well a SSA style analysis gets it for you |
| 07:07:39 | <lortabac> | I mean, what is the exact transformation that the optimizer will (or can) perform |
| 07:07:45 | <davean> | SSA will do this |
| 07:07:57 | <davean> | Thats an optimization pass that will exactly generate that |
| 07:08:19 | <lortabac> | what is SSA? |
| 07:08:25 | <davean> | Single static assignment |
| 07:08:37 | <davean> | basicly what we're doing here is keeping the last writes |
| 07:08:55 | <davean> | but in the abstract |
| 07:09:44 | <davean> | Theres a few other ways to get that vector example above |
| 07:09:51 | <davean> | its actually a pretty easy one to get ... |
| 07:10:40 | <lortabac> | thanks |
| 07:10:51 | <lortabac> | does GHC actually do it? |
| 07:10:56 | <davean> | Almost any symbolic approach to computation will get that |
| 07:11:29 | <triteraflops> | idk why you say that. This clearly requires special consideration at the level of GHC's vector implementation. |
| 07:11:40 | <davean> | That particular one? No, partially because Vector is specificly optimized, I don't THINK GHC would get it if Vector wasn't in the way? ... hum, I know how to write fast code with GHC but I don't know all the passes in depth ... |
| 07:11:47 | <davean> | triteraflops: No, it does NOT |
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| 07:12:14 | <davean> | It requires an abstract interpritation step for optimization |
| 07:12:18 | <davean> | which can apply to any code |
| 07:13:08 | <triteraflops> | GHC needs to implement this vector at some point |
| 07:13:33 | <triteraflops> | This implementation will support certain operations. |
| 07:13:46 | <triteraflops> | These operations may or may not be pure |
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| 07:13:54 | <davean> | Yes but those operations can be emergent at the assembly level |
| 07:14:06 | <davean> | and the code is pure |
| 07:14:46 | <triteraflops> | so there's some kind of deep optimisation that gives you copy elimination for free? |
| 07:14:55 | <davean> | Its not even deep |
| 07:15:12 | <triteraflops> | or like general |
| 07:15:18 | <davean> | And I explained to you how simpler forms come out explicitely from being lazy, this is a deeper one but its very shallow |
| 07:15:20 | <davean> | yes |
| 07:15:29 | <triteraflops> | a general optimisation that also works on the assembly operations as they apply to the vector... |
| 07:15:30 | <davean> | in general you can eliminate most of this stuff in pure code |
| 07:15:40 | <davean> | Yes |
| 07:15:49 | <davean> | This is what optimizing compilers do, and what they've done for ages |
| 07:16:01 | <davean> | Haskell has it better because more of these optimizations apply more of the time because its pure |
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| 07:16:36 | <davean> | but yes, we've basicly been over the basics of what happened in the 1980s to compilers |
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| 07:17:21 | <davean> | This "magic" can be sensative to disruption, and GHC isn't the best at doing it well but yah, this is very standard entirely general code optimization stuff |
| 07:17:43 | <davean> | That can and often ends up in practice, apply to litterly any haskell you writwe |
| 07:18:19 | <davean> | which is part of what Axman6's comment about case statements got to actually |
| 07:18:42 | <triteraflops> | This is getting interesting now. |
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| 07:19:26 | <davean> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single-assignment_form you'll note it is a subset of continuation passing style, and *that* is deeply related to functional programming |
| 07:19:34 | <davean> | so it shouldn't supprise you it applies :) |
| 07:19:43 | <davean> | SSA is just a particularly easy to understand optimization |
| 07:20:07 | <triteraflops> | aaah, SSA was ticking some memories |
| 07:20:17 | <triteraflops> | ***tickling |
| 07:20:27 | <merijn> | Essentially, the main topic of optimisation in our compiler course was: here's some neat optimisations |
| 07:20:45 | <merijn> | here's why you can't do any of them in C, because they're near impossible to prove correct in a mutable setting |
| 07:20:57 | <triteraflops> | spirv uses ssa |
| 07:21:21 | <merijn> | triteraflops: Nearly any compiler/optimisation tool that is remotely serious/relevant uses SSA ;) |
| 07:21:33 | <davean> | and yah, triteraflops we have ways to do stuff even better than the compiler in Haskell but they're extensions, not standards compliant Haskell |
| 07:22:01 | <triteraflops> | well, it looks like if something doesn't need extra copies, it likely won't incur them |
| 07:22:08 | <davean> | merijn: right! Optimizations actually apply in general to Haskell because of purity :) |
| 07:22:13 | <triteraflops> | with some provisos lol |
| 07:22:41 | <davean> | triteraflops: I mean uh, shouldn't. Again, GHC not PARTICULARLY great at reliably applying what it has |
| 07:22:45 | <davean> | but its pretty good |
| 07:22:54 | <davean> | you know like 80% of the time it'll work :) |
| 07:23:12 | <davean> | And another 15% of the time a small wiggle gets it to work |
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| 07:23:41 | <davean> | but yah triteraflops when I decided to engage in this conversation I knew it was going to be a long one |
| 07:23:50 | <davean> | perspective changes take a while |
| 07:24:29 | <triteraflops> | well, um, you're also not super good at communicating your ideas lol |
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| 07:24:45 | <triteraflops> | but it's working |
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| 07:24:54 | <triteraflops> | I am starting to understand what you mean. |
| 07:24:55 | <davean> | I should get to bed now though |
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| 07:26:20 | <davean> | "merijn here's why you can't do any of them in C, because they're near impossible to prove correct in a mutable setting" <--- it still is sinking in even today just how important purity is for optimizing code. |
| 07:28:01 | <triteraflops> | So, I started with the impression that haskell couldn't mutate large objects, even when it would be safe. |
| 07:28:12 | <triteraflops> | But now, I see that it actually can. |
| 07:28:44 | <triteraflops> | The 3x set example with the vector demonstrates this. |
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| 07:39:00 | <davean> | Briefly back to mention you might notice SSA is directly related as a form of non-strictness. but I have to leave you to consider that on your own. |
| 07:41:38 | <triteraflops> | So, haskell basically sorta can mutate large objects in cases like the 3x set case above. But it would be inaccurate to call it mutation, per se, because the three sets are not time ordered operations being applied individually to an array. SSA is fusing them. |
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| 07:42:12 | <triteraflops> | into a single copy+modify operation |
| 07:43:39 | <triteraflops> | and yeah, this potential reordering and fusing is a kind of non strictness. |
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| 08:04:00 | <merijn> | @tell Hecate I disagree with your assessment that ASCII literals for ByteString should die. It's incredibly nice for a lot of the "text" based protocols (HTTP/SMTP/etc.), what should die is error-less partial conversions (see also my comment on the bytestring issue), I already campaigned for that, I dunno, 7 years ago. |
| 08:04:00 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 08:06:42 | <Hecate> | merijn: I see |
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| 08:08:25 | <merijn> | Hecate: also, if you're curious about semi-cursed application of ByteString's ForeignPtr I got those too :p |
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| 08:08:51 | <merijn> | Hecate: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/src/Utils/Vector.hs |
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| 08:13:49 | <Hecate> | merijn: thank you :) |
| 08:14:03 | <Hecate> | merijn: btw, do you know how I could check for memory fragmentation of pinned bytestrings? |
| 08:14:57 | <maerwald[m]> | https://well-typed.com/blog/2021/01/fragmentation-deeper-look/ |
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| 08:16:14 | <Hecate> | thanks maerwald[m] <3 |
| 08:17:08 | <merijn> | Hecate: High-level guess work from my side says that they shouldn't fragment the haskell heap at all |
| 08:17:44 | <merijn> | Ah, hmm, pack maybe does |
| 08:19:43 | <merijn> | I dunno the details of the mutablePinnedByteArray# stuff enough |
| 08:20:01 | <lortabac> | triteraflops: there are several concepts involved, one is sharing which makes you for example the parts of a data-structure that are not modified |
| 08:20:52 | <triteraflops> | Is there a word missing in that sentence? |
| 08:20:59 | <triteraflops> | I'm getting parse errors lol |
| 08:21:11 | <lortabac> | one is rewrite rules, which are ad-hoc transformations based on templates |
| 08:21:41 | <triteraflops> | I knew about list fusion |
| 08:21:59 | <lortabac> | yes, list fusion is performed through rewrite rules |
| 08:22:29 | <lortabac> | from what I understood, the discussion was quite abstract and detached from what GHC really does |
| 08:22:53 | <triteraflops> | But I couldn't see how rewrite rules could fuse multiple inserts into a hashmap or multiple vector mutations |
| 08:22:55 | <lortabac> | in fact GHC does not optimize the vector example through SSA |
| 08:23:03 | <triteraflops> | That was the part I thought haskell couldn't do at all |
| 08:23:09 | <triteraflops> | or rather couldn't optimise at all |
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| 08:24:09 | <lortabac> | triteraflops: oh sorry a word was missing indeed, I meant "makes you reuse the parts..." |
| 08:25:03 | <triteraflops> | yeah I knew about subcomponent reuse |
| 08:25:23 | <triteraflops> | and again considered it irrelevant to the vector example, like fusion |
| 08:27:10 | <lortabac> | yes, sharing does not make vectors fuse magically |
| 08:28:00 | <triteraflops> | I can think of other examples involving vectors. Like an iteration in conway's game of life for instance |
| 08:29:43 | <triteraflops> | or an iteration step comprised of several linear operations on a vector |
| 08:29:51 | <lortabac> | I think you can achieve fusion in vector by using their stream interface |
| 08:30:36 | <triteraflops> | well, I think davean is basically right about the assembly level optimisation catching a lot of this. |
| 08:31:40 | <lortabac> | in theory yes, but I don't think GHC actually does it |
| 08:32:03 | <lortabac> | optimizations happen at a much higher level in GHC |
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| 08:33:46 | <triteraflops> | The way of doing an iteration 10 linear operations is to do one initial copy to v, allocate a new array, w, then do W = Av, v = Aw, etc. |
| 08:33:55 | <triteraflops> | *iteration comprised of |
| 08:34:24 | <triteraflops> | or maybe v = Bw |
| 08:35:52 | <triteraflops> | If you try inlining 10 matrix vector operations, the result will be a total fucking mess |
| 08:36:17 | <triteraflops> | maybe |
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| 08:37:04 | <triteraflops> | actually maybe not lol. The compiler may inline it to a single matrix vector op without realising it lol |
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| 08:37:48 | <triteraflops> | so, inlining |
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| 08:38:20 | <triteraflops> | inlining is transparent at the assembly / SSA level |
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| 08:40:51 | <triteraflops> | If there are nonlinear operations between the linear operations, inlining will definitely produce a huge mess. Or at least it could. If the operation is expanded once for every element of the output array |
| 08:41:46 | <triteraflops> | assembly level SSA optimisation should be able to determine what temporary variables are the most useful to keep and share. |
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| 10:35:04 | <dminuoso> | triteraflops: By the way, you might be interested in uniqueness types in Clean, which allows for non-heuristic in-place mutation |
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| 10:36:50 | <dminuoso> | triteraflops: So there, the compiler can turn a "produce an altered copy" into "mutate in place" if its safe to do so |
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| 10:39:03 | <EggGuest> | Hello |
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| 11:11:02 | <vpan> | hi, I'm trying to load CSV data using cassava that has separator records, which I'm trying to detect by a `parseRecord` guard in a `FromRecord` instance. The guard condition like `not $ null (v .! 11)` does not work. How to check for emptyness of a field? |
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| 11:19:36 | <dminuoso> | vpan: What do you mean by "does not work"? |
| 11:21:04 | <vpan> | dminuoso: No instance for (Foldable Parser) arising from a use of ‘null’ |
| 11:21:23 | <dminuoso> | :t null |
| 11:21:24 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t a -> Bool |
| 11:21:42 | <dminuoso> | (.!) :: FromField a => Record -> Int -> Parser a |
| 11:22:05 | <dminuoso> | vpan: You probably meant to apply `null` to the result of the parser (v .! 11), not the parser itself |
| 11:22:38 | <dminuoso> | So do something like `do { r <- v .! 11; guard (not (null r)); .... }` |
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| 11:36:16 | <maerwald[m]> | guard always feels lke goto to me |
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| 11:41:25 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: Sure, that's what short-circuiting `if cond then return ... else ...` does in traditional languages. :) |
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| 11:43:05 | <dminuoso> | It's a bit bizarre you see this negativity towards `goto` in C, while every single `if/then/else` is essentially just a jnz or equivalent in disguise |
| 11:46:23 | <vpan> | dminuoso: you're right, the process of a Parser becoming the result type is still a bit magic to me. :) Trying to see if I can wrap the do block in a function and use it as a guard condition. Using an `if` in the function definition feels too imperative. :) |
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| 11:47:44 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: I use goto all over the place in C to jump to cleanup chunks |
| 11:47:48 | <maerwald[m]> | But it confuses me in Haskell |
| 11:48:10 | <dminuoso> | vpan: In Haskell we split things that traditional languages conflate into one thing. |
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| 11:49:02 | <dminuoso> | vpan: The act of *evaluating* (v .! 11) does not give you the value of the field back. Instead, it can be thought of some parser computation that, if executed against some text, would then give you the field. |
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| 11:51:12 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: Well you can always ContT into complete confusion. |
| 11:51:43 | <dminuoso> | Twice the power, 8 times the complexity. |
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| 11:52:11 | <maerwald[m]> | Yeah, ContT I refuse to use |
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| 11:53:44 | <dminuoso> | vpan: The thing is, <- does not "make it become the result", its just syntax sugar around >>= |
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| 11:54:28 | <vpan> | dminuoso: right, binding the result to a variable invokes the "execution" you mentioned, similar to IO actions |
| 11:54:36 | <dminuoso> | vpan: Not really. |
| 11:54:44 | <dminuoso> | It doesnt invoke the execution |
| 11:55:06 | <dminuoso> | look at: (v .! 11) >>= \r -> if (null r) then ... else ... |
| 11:55:12 | <dminuoso> | It's really rather a kind of continuation |
| 11:55:31 | <dminuoso> | And the result of >>= computes a larger, more complex "execution" |
| 11:55:39 | <dminuoso> | But it doesnt "invoke" it |
| 11:56:02 | <maerwald[m]> | Aren't nix derivations a form of ContT? xD |
| 11:56:22 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: Mmm in what sense? |
| 11:56:32 | <dminuoso> | Derivations are just simplistic functions |
| 11:58:53 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: what do you think of PEP 383 |
| 11:59:13 | <vpan> | dminuoso: ok, so binding to a name is not the point at which the execution happens, we continue to build boxes upon boxes until the result is required and that's when all the boxes spring to life :) |
| 11:59:45 | <dminuoso> | vpan: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/3f700d36912f5a2932dc9c476d9ede3d |
| 12:00:01 | <dminuoso> | vpan: Do you agree that the mere act of writing Recipe3 does not actually *do* *cooking*? |
| 12:00:29 | <vpan> | sure |
| 12:00:42 | <dminuoso> | And similarly, Recipe3 itself is not *actual* *cooking* right? |
| 12:00:44 | <dminuoso> | It's just a recipe |
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| 12:02:30 | <vpan> | the part that you feed a result you don't yet have feels a bit strange, but I guess that's how lazy evaluation works |
| 12:02:42 | <dminuoso> | It has nothing to do with lazy evaluation |
| 12:02:47 | <dminuoso> | vpan: Is recipe3 lazy? |
| 12:03:30 | <dminuoso> | Let me make a less convoluted example |
| 12:03:38 | <dminuoso> | Or rather |
| 12:03:55 | <dminuoso> | "Given some whipped eggs, add sugar and whip in a bowl" this description itself has nothing to do with lazyness |
| 12:04:16 | <dminuoso> | It's a kind of continuation, where you assume that by some undefined process you already have whipped eggs, how do you carry on |
| 12:05:11 | <dminuoso> | Traditional programming works the same. In C, if a variable `x` is in scope, and you refer to it, you assume that, by some undefined prior process, x has been populated by a value. |
| 12:05:50 | <dminuoso> | This is sometimes even done explicitly, you may know it as callback style |
| 12:06:32 | <geekosaur> | conversely, purescript uses this same mechanism and is strict |
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| 12:08:06 | <dminuoso> | vpan: Note that this "assuming you have something, what do you do with it" is simply described by just a function. |
| 12:08:33 | <[Leary]> | Yeah, it's not about laziness. It's just clever use of higher order functions (taking functions as arguments) to pretend at having a singular result at hand. Then, (>>=) takes that function and maybe doesn't use it at all, maybe applies it multiple times, etc. |
| 12:08:35 | <dminuoso> | `\f -> <expr>` could be read: given some `f`, give <expr> |
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| 12:12:18 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: Im really unsure, I think PEP383 is ill-guided in the sense that the real problem its trying to address is lack of a bytestring type. |
| 12:12:28 | <dminuoso> | But that's only after a skim of the PEP |
| 12:12:35 | <vpan> | dminuoso: my understanding is that in C if a `x` is assigned the result of a function call, that function is called at the time x is assigned, i.e. when the assignment statement is executed |
| 12:12:54 | <dminuoso> | (or well, not lack of a bytestring type, but lack of mandating bytestring in in the filesystem apis) |
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| 12:14:01 | <dminuoso> | vpan: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/fd4f2f90e228012b719559ebac1f9ec4 |
| 12:14:10 | <merijn> | vpan: Not really if we wanna be super precise |
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| 12:14:35 | <dminuoso> | Ah sorry bad example |
| 12:14:41 | <dminuoso> | Updated. |
| 12:14:50 | <merijn> | vpan: C has explicit "sequence points" where "everything that happens before the sequence point is guaranteed to be finished happening after" |
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| 12:15:04 | <merijn> | vpan: But in between sequence points, the ordering and observability is unspecified |
| 12:15:06 | <dminuoso> | vpan: Do you note how the mere line 5 merely assumes that `somewhere before, x has been populated by a value, we dont know how and dont care why` |
| 12:15:31 | <dminuoso> | vpan: we could precisely describe this relationship with a function (or even a c routine): \z -> anotherFunc z |
| 12:16:18 | <dminuoso> | In fact `anotherFunc` already is exactly that routine. |
| 12:16:46 | <dminuoso> | It doesnt know how and where its parameter comes from, its just a mere description of "what to do assuming it had that parameter" |
| 12:16:54 | <vpan> | right, the lamba makes the "given z, invoke anotherFunc" more explicit |
| 12:17:22 | <dminuoso> | In Haskell we codify all these relationships in IO effects which such lambdas. |
| 12:17:28 | <dminuoso> | (assuming you have any such dependency) |
| 12:17:34 | <dminuoso> | : (>>) |
| 12:17:39 | <dminuoso> | :t (>>) |
| 12:17:40 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m a -> m b -> m b |
| 12:17:58 | <dminuoso> | Lets you talk about sequencing two actions where you discard the result of the first, which is roughly the equivalent of calling a routine in C but not assigning the value to a binder. |
| 12:18:34 | <dminuoso> | For everything else, we just provide it into a lambda instead, and then the lambda by scoping can provide the "result" to all subsequent computations |
| 12:19:45 | <shiraeeshi> | discussing lambdas, huh |
| 12:19:50 | <shiraeeshi> | gud, gud |
| 12:20:07 | <merijn> | tbh, I would strongly caution against all these references to C :p |
| 12:20:18 | <merijn> | As they mostly don't seem to actually be references to C :p |
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| 12:21:14 | <shiraeeshi> | I'm reading Purely Functional Data Structures y Chris Okasaki |
| 12:21:20 | <shiraeeshi> | *by |
| 12:21:26 | <arahael> | I thought the C compiler is basically allowed to ignore sequence point if it determines it's not actually significant? |
| 12:21:49 | <merijn> | arahael: Man, I can't answer that |
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| 12:21:59 | <merijn> | because C's memory model is the stuff of Lovecraftian nightmares |
| 12:22:08 | <dminuoso> | arahael: In C things there's an as-if rule |
| 12:22:10 | <merijn> | I'd literally rather quit than be forced to give any definitive answer on that |
| 12:22:19 | <arahael> | dminuoso: Right, it's that rule I'm thinking about there. |
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| 12:22:32 | <shiraeeshi> | I was surprised when I learned that the examples are in Standard ML, and examples in Haskell are in the appendix |
| 12:22:49 | <shiraeeshi> | I thought that the book would only use Haskell |
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| 12:23:37 | <dminuoso> | arahael: *Very* roughly, outside of `volatile` and memory barriers, it can - for the most part - do whatever it wants to as long as you cant tell the difference. |
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| 12:24:17 | <dminuoso> | Contrary to popular belief, C operates on an abstract machine and even has notions of "objects and types in memory" |
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| 12:24:28 | <dminuoso> | (That is, the semantics are defined on an abstract machine) |
| 12:24:30 | <dminuoso> | It' |
| 12:24:35 | <arahael> | I knew C has an abstract machine, but I didn't know it had that notion. |
| 12:24:35 | <dminuoso> | It's most definitely not a high level assembler language. |
| 12:24:46 | <dminuoso> | You can observe this in the aliasing rules for example |
| 12:25:21 | <arahael> | I'm not actually aware of teh aliasing rules. :( |
| 12:25:32 | <arahael> | I just know that aliasing is a thing in C. |
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| 12:26:08 | <dminuoso> | So if you have a pointer to a struct T, you are not allowed to treat the memory the pointer points at as struct U. |
| 12:26:12 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/vivjdo/abstract_filepath_coming_soon |
| 12:26:16 | <merijn> | arahael: Strict aliasing rules says that two pointers with diferent types where neither is "char" *cannot* overlap or it's UB |
| 12:26:23 | <dminuoso> | If you do this you're in undefined behavior, and in fact compilers will generate all kinds of broken assembly if you do this. |
| 12:26:30 | <dminuoso> | Without any diagnostics. |
| 12:26:46 | <arahael> | Nice. :) |
| 12:27:01 | <arahael> | (But I'm expecting that there's a whole bunch of exceptions people end up using in practice) |
| 12:27:02 | <dminuoso> | Things like reordering writes after reads |
| 12:27:07 | <dminuoso> | Stuff you really dont expect. :) |
| 12:27:21 | <arahael> | :) |
| 12:27:45 | <dminuoso> | arahael: Sure, people often use it because they dont know its disallowed, and it just so happens the compiler (in that version used by the author) doesnt apply aggressive optimizations in those regions. |
| 12:28:09 | <dminuoso> | Ive found about a dozen of such bugs by accident when working with C |
| 12:28:15 | <arahael> | Not surprising. :( |
| 12:28:23 | <arahael> | I try to avoid C in business projects. |
| 12:28:30 | <arahael> | (I prefer literally anything else) |
| 12:28:46 | <dminuoso> | merijn: By the way, they *can* overlap. |
| 12:28:49 | <dminuoso> | That's not the problem. |
| 12:29:43 | <merijn> | dminuoso: It's UB if they do |
| 12:29:45 | <dminuoso> | No its not. |
| 12:29:57 | <dminuoso> | As bper 6.5p7, the wording is: |
| 12:30:16 | <dminuoso> | An object shall have its *stored* *value* *accessed* only by an lvalue expression that has one of the following types: [...] |
| 12:30:21 | <dminuoso> | (emphasis added by me) |
| 12:30:40 | <dminuoso> | It's the actual value access that's problematic, pointers can overlap |
| 12:30:47 | <dminuoso> | Unless the pointers are function pointers, they may not overlap |
| 12:30:57 | <merijn> | dminuoso: You can't access pointers through the wrong type, sure |
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| 12:31:17 | <merijn> | dminuoso: But strict aliasing refers to the fact that pointers of different types in the same function scope cannot reference the same memory |
| 12:31:41 | <merijn> | dminuoso: It's violated so commonly most compilers don't actually assume people follow strict aliasing |
| 12:31:54 | <dminuoso> | merijn: The C standard is carefully phrased to not talk about pointers, because its about the abstract memory model rather |
| 12:31:57 | <dminuoso> | — a type compatible with the effective type of the object, |
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| 12:32:20 | <dminuoso> | merijn: thats not true |
| 12:32:29 | <dminuoso> | Unless you exclude both clang and GCC from "most compilers" |
| 12:32:49 | <dminuoso> | Both will generate "buggy" (fsvo buggy in UB-land) code if you violate this rule |
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| 12:33:27 | <dminuoso> | It's mostly read/write dependency reordering that happens |
| 12:33:42 | <merijn> | dminuoso: gcc disabled strict aliasing for decades, maybe they changed very recently |
| 12:34:55 | <dminuoso> | merijn: -fstrict-aliasing has been part of -O2 for a long time |
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| 12:48:55 | <kuribas> | People complain about compilation being slow, but do they factor in the time of not writing and running tests that we get from the high level language? |
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| 12:49:35 | <kuribas> | yeah, no compilation time in python/clojure/javascript, but the testsuite takes 15 minutes then. |
| 12:50:21 | <maerwald[m]> | kuribas: not writing tests? Uhm |
| 12:50:52 | <dminuoso> | I dont think the type of errors caught by GHCs type system are usually explicitly covered in tests. |
| 12:50:54 | <kuribas> | maerwald[m]: I mean the time you gain from tests you don't need to write. |
| 12:51:03 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: for sure they are. |
| 12:51:14 | <dminuoso> | Not sure what kind of tests you encode into the type system them. |
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| 12:51:21 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: you end up testing pretty much everything in a dynamic language. |
| 12:51:28 | <kuribas> | Or be happy with bugs in production. |
| 12:51:46 | <dminuoso> | Sure, but there's no sensible way of writing a test suite that ensures `f is called with a string` |
| 12:51:47 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: I don't *encode* tests in the type system. |
| 12:52:00 | <geekosaur> | judging by the javascript console in my browser, runtime bugs are ignored a lot >.> |
| 12:52:02 | <dminuoso> | Other than just testing all code paths that involve `f` and assert no exception is raised. |
| 12:52:39 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: yeah, you don't do that. You just try to cover as much code paths as possible and hope nothing breaks. |
| 12:52:50 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: you don't particularly test if that field has a string. |
| 12:53:00 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Covering as many code paths as possible is sensible in Haskell as well. |
| 12:53:01 | <kuribas> | THough you could put runtime assertions in important places. |
| 12:53:10 | <dminuoso> | In Haskell you have undefined in pure code and IO exceptions in impure code. |
| 12:53:18 | <dminuoso> | The slow compilation time does not save you from writing tests. |
| 12:53:21 | <merijn> | kuribas: I mean, faster compilation time is always better |
| 12:53:32 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: String ought to be valid Unicode right? Riiight? xD |
| 12:53:40 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: I usually have a few tests, but rely on the type system to garantee the consistency. And I test on the repl a lot. |
| 12:53:43 | <maerwald[m]> | No need to test |
| 12:53:50 | <merijn> | I don't think GHC's compiles times are prohibitive to stop me from using it. But at the same time if it was 10x slower this would be a good QoL improvement to me |
| 12:54:01 | <maerwald[m]> | Oh wait, you can encode arbitrary invalid surrogate pairs with string |
| 12:54:03 | <maerwald[m]> | Oops |
| 12:54:19 | <kuribas> | merijn: if it is free for me, sure. But what if it means I have to give up on nice abstactions? |
| 12:54:22 | <dminuoso> | And to be fair, -O0 or disabling code generation gets you very far in terms of responsiveness for rapid development |
| 12:54:30 | <kuribas> | good point. |
| 12:54:31 | <dminuoso> | (And Im sure HLS doese these things) |
| 12:55:17 | <dminuoso> | At that point it's mostly just the ability to apply a rapid fix in production that is limited by compilation time with optimizations enabled |
| 12:55:19 | <maerwald[m]> | The sad truth is the type system doesn't enforce most invariants |
| 12:55:27 | <kuribas> | Also, a type checker in the IDE usually doesn't compile the whole system. |
| 12:56:08 | <kuribas> | maerwald[m]: I mean, you *can*, with dependent type. But probably shouldn't. |
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| 12:56:38 | <kuribas> | maerwald[m]: having some runtime checks is just fine. |
| 12:56:48 | <kuribas> | you can always weight costs and benifits. |
| 12:56:54 | <maerwald[m]> | You mean TESTS |
| 12:57:06 | <kuribas> | for example. |
| 12:57:09 | <shiraeeshi> | finding bugs at compile time works in case of Rust |
| 12:57:23 | <shiraeeshi> | borrow checker and all that |
| 12:57:38 | <maerwald[m]> | A small subset of bugs |
| 12:57:39 | <merijn> | kuribas: The thing is that GHC 8.x is far slower that it needs to be |
| 12:57:40 | <shiraeeshi> | it's a killer feature of Rust |
| 12:58:19 | <merijn> | kuribas: Nobody is arguing to remove features to speed up compile times, it's just that nobody really put in effort to get things fast. Althought the 9.x series have seen pretty big improvements |
| 12:58:44 | <kuribas> | subsumption? |
| 12:59:10 | <merijn> | unrelated to that |
| 12:59:11 | <geekosaur> | a decent part of that was discovering and fixing some "laziness leaks" |
| 12:59:22 | <merijn> | Just boring old plumbing and engineering work |
| 12:59:24 | <shiraeeshi> | I also heard a saying "in languages like haskell, if it compiles, it works" |
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| 12:59:28 | <merijn> | Profiling hotspots, improving them |
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| 12:59:35 | <geekosaur> | shiraeeshi, one could hope |
| 12:59:41 | <merijn> | shiraeeshi: I mean, it's obviously bullshit. But also, kinda not |
| 12:59:50 | <kuribas> | shiraeeshi: it works, but maybe not efficiently :) |
| 13:00:08 | <merijn> | shiraeeshi: It's mostly that you get to focus your testing efforts on less boring kinds of tests |
| 13:00:14 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: it's pure BS |
| 13:00:22 | <kuribas> | for me more like, it "usually" works. |
| 13:00:27 | <kuribas> | Or "most of the code works". |
| 13:00:54 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: Overall my compiling code is a closer approximation of "works correctly" than it has even been in C/C++/Python |
| 13:00:55 | <kuribas> | for clojure, it's "it "usually" doesn't work. and "most of the code doesn't work". |
| 13:01:13 | <merijn> | Of course claiming "compiling code is bug free" is nonsense, but that should be obvious to anyone |
| 13:01:27 | <merijn> | But I waste a whole lot less time chasing down boring stupid shit in haskell |
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| 13:01:42 | <kuribas> | also, "after refactoring, it very likely works.", and in clojure: "after refactoring, it very likely is broken". |
| 13:01:43 | <merijn> | and like, 70% of my debugging efforts in C/C++ go into said "stupid shit" |
| 13:01:51 | <kuribas> | merijn: yeah this |
| 13:01:57 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: I've spend a lot of time chasing boring bugs in Haskell |
| 13:02:00 | <merijn> | So overall, it *feels* much more correct |
| 13:02:23 | <merijn> | maerwald[m]: Well, find us 50-100 more anecdotal comments and we can discuss it :p |
| 13:02:44 | <maerwald[m]> | It's just that refactoring in Haskell is usually less error prone |
| 13:02:58 | <maerwald[m]> | But my python prototypes don't have significantly more bugs |
| 13:03:49 | <maerwald[m]> | E.g. Python doesn't use PEP 383 incorrectly like Haskell |
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| 13:06:33 | <kuribas> | maerwald[m]: I find my clojure code much harder to maintain. |
| 13:07:10 | <maerwald[m]> | kuribas: agreed |
| 13:07:21 | <kuribas> | and clojure > Python |
| 13:07:51 | <maerwald[m]> | I will never forget how removing a bracket didn't cause a compile error, but made the webpage go blank when clicking a button |
| 13:07:58 | <maerwald[m]> | Clojurescript is cancer |
| 13:08:14 | <zzz> | in haskell, debugging is called "learning" |
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| 13:11:58 | <kuribas> | debugging in haskell for me is mosly putting trace statements. |
| 13:12:11 | <kuribas> | And trying out functions on the repl. |
| 13:12:33 | <kuribas> | there are no advanced debugging tools, but I rarely miss them. |
| 13:13:41 | <maerwald[m]> | kuribas: ghc-debug |
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| 13:14:38 | <shiraeeshi> | kuribas: how about labeling cost centers and then viewing statistics? |
| 13:14:50 | <kuribas> | shiraeeshi: that's profiling :) |
| 13:14:52 | <shiraeeshi> | to debug space leaks |
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| 13:15:40 | <kuribas> | maerwald[m]: cool, I didn't know about that. |
| 13:15:48 | <shiraeeshi> | I wonder if profiling skills are more needed for Haskell developers than others |
| 13:15:57 | <shiraeeshi> | due to laziness |
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| 13:19:13 | <kuribas> | shiraeeshi: in my opinion: no |
| 13:20:13 | <shiraeeshi> | if only we could gather statistics about space leaks from every running haskell program |
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| 13:20:27 | <kuribas> | I have not yet seen space leaks in my programs. |
| 13:20:33 | <shiraeeshi> | to be able to tell how often they occur compared to other languages |
| 13:21:47 | <shiraeeshi> | kuribas: you are good at avoiding them? |
| 13:22:04 | <shiraeeshi> | or they just don't occur and you don't even worry about them? |
| 13:22:45 | <kuribas> | both probably? |
| 13:23:04 | <kuribas> | well I mean, the programs I write are not sensitive to them maybe. |
| 13:23:25 | <kuribas> | Though I avoid pitfalls, like foldl instead of foldl'. |
| 13:24:13 | <dolio> | I think it's just not very hard to preemptively avoid most space leaks once you have experience. |
| 13:24:40 | <dolio> | Doesn't take much thought. |
| 13:26:18 | <shiraeeshi> | I find myself discussing space leaks more and more lately |
| 13:26:29 | <shiraeeshi> | but actually I wanted to ask about something else |
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| 13:27:03 | <shiraeeshi> | I'm reading a Purely Functional Data Structures by Chris Okasaki |
| 13:27:27 | <shiraeeshi> | I'm at the beginning |
| 13:27:41 | <shiraeeshi> | Leftist heaps |
| 13:28:01 | <shiraeeshi> | there is an exercise 3.3 |
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| 13:28:14 | <shiraeeshi> | it's about proving that fromList runs in O(n) time |
| 13:28:46 | <shiraeeshi> | it says: "Instead of merging the heaps in one |
| 13:28:46 | <shiraeeshi> | right-to-left or left-to-right pass using foldr or foldl, merge the heaps in [log n] passes, where each |
| 13:28:46 | <shiraeeshi> | pass merges adjacent pairs of heaps." |
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| 13:29:13 | <maerwald[m]> | dolio: not everything is a space leak. Evaluating deep thunks in hot loops can kill your performance in orders of 10x magnitudes and forcing the result at the callsite won't fix it |
| 13:30:15 | <maerwald[m]> | It's really hard to debug it. There is no space leaks, the profiler doesn't tell you what's going on either |
| 13:30:48 | <dolio> | My comment was about space leaks, because that's what the topic was. |
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| 13:33:08 | <shiraeeshi> | earlier in the chapter the book says that merge runs in O(log n) time |
| 13:33:32 | <shiraeeshi> | and we invoke merge ceil(log n) times, right? |
| 13:33:52 | <shiraeeshi> | how does it follow that fromList runs in O(n) time? |
| 13:35:53 | <maerwald[m]> | dolio: the topic was about profiling too ;) |
| 13:36:11 | <dolio> | When I commented people were specifically talking about space leaks, and that's why I wrote what I wrote. |
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| 13:37:46 | <shiraeeshi> | am I not seeing something obvious here? |
| 13:37:50 | <[Leary]> | shiraeeshi: I'm not saying this is it, but you should be aware that log n is O(n) and so is (log n)^2. O(n) time technically means linear or sub-linear. |
| 13:38:34 | <geekosaur> | besides which, the time is likely dominated by the time it takes to traverse the list which is by definition O(n) |
| 13:39:23 | <shiraeeshi> | [Leary]: yeah, that's what's not clear to me: how do you go from log n to n? because it seems to me that you should make it power of two |
| 13:40:22 | <shiraeeshi> | geekosaur: the exercise says that you should merge adjacent pairs instead of using folds, if I understood you correctly |
| 13:40:50 | <dolio> | shiraeeshi: When you use foldl/r, you'll be repeatedly merging a small things into increasingly large things, to the cost of each operation will approach log n, as the size of the large thing is O(n) for much of the time. |
| 13:40:56 | <shiraeeshi> | you divide the list to pairs and merge them, and you keep doing that until only one heap left |
| 13:41:22 | <[Leary]> | This is just the definition of big-O; it's not an "equals", it's a "less than or equals". |
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| 13:42:38 | <[Leary]> | So anything that's O(n) is autamtatically O(n^2), but not necessarily O(log n). |
| 13:42:43 | <[Leary]> | (e.g.) |
| 13:43:15 | <maerwald> | dolio: and when you were talking about profiling space leaks, I wrote what I wrote |
| 13:43:32 | <shiraeeshi> | [Leary]: I see your point, but I think the author expects something like an algebraic proof that concludes that the time is O(n) |
| 13:44:01 | <dolio> | Pair-wise, you'll be repeatedly merging things of the same size to double their size, and most of the merges will not be of things that are O(n) size. |
| 13:44:28 | <dolio> | Or at least, needn't be counted that way. |
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| 13:45:19 | <shiraeeshi> | dolio: hmm, "repeatedly merging small things into increasingly large things" sounds like it could lead to the right answer, but I don't see how would you prove the O(n) time. I think I'm missing something. |
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| 13:47:06 | <shiraeeshi> | oh, right. the "n" when we say that merge takes O(log n) time is not the same as "n" when we say that fromList takes O(n) time |
| 13:47:25 | <dolio> | For example, with foldl, by the time you've processed half the list, your accumulator has size n/2, so the remaining n/2 merges take ~log n time. |
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| 13:47:46 | <dolio> | For the pair-wise merges, only the last merge has size n/2. |
| 13:48:18 | <dolio> | The previous one had n/4, before that n/8, which is like n/2^k. |
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| 13:51:31 | <shiraeeshi> | ok, so let's say we have a list with 16 elements |
| 13:51:57 | <shiraeeshi> | there are 8 pairs, so we invoke merge 8 times |
| 13:53:00 | <shiraeeshi> | the size of heaps to merged is 1, so merge takes O(1) time (or we can say O(log 1)) |
| 13:53:08 | <dolio> | So many more of the merges happen at sizes that are 'effectively constant', and only an effectively constant number at the end are O(n). At least, that's sort of an intuitive idea behind it. |
| 13:53:31 | <shiraeeshi> | so going from 16 elements to 8 elements takes 8*O(1) time |
| 13:54:30 | <shiraeeshi> | now going from 8 elements to 4 elements takes 4*O(log2) = 4*O(1) time |
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| 13:55:22 | <shiraeeshi> | going from 4 elements to 2 elements takes 2*O(log4) = 2*O(2) |
| 13:56:07 | <shiraeeshi> | and from 2 elements to 1 element should take O(log 8) = O(3) time |
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| 13:57:51 | <shiraeeshi> | total time is the sum of all those iterations |
| 13:58:49 | <shiraeeshi> | sum (for i from 1 to half of n) (2*i * O(log (n - i))) |
| 13:59:05 | <geekosaur> | I don't think you get to do math with big-Os that way |
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| 13:59:39 | <geekosaur> | in particular, your "8*O(1)" is O(n/2) which is O(n) with a constant factor (that drops out) of 0.5 |
| 13:59:46 | <dolio> | Yeah, I mean, reasoning about a fixed example is erroneous, because it's all constant. But it helps see the pattern. |
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| 13:59:56 | <[Leary]> | Sounds like it's amenable to induction, if you want to do that a bit more rigourously. |
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| 14:01:55 | <dolio> | The sum is what to think about, though. Then show that it's O(n). |
| 14:02:00 | <dolio> | I think. |
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| 14:06:42 | <dolio> | Or maybe, `Σ(i = 1..log n) 2^(n-i) * i` is better? |
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| 14:09:49 | <dolio> | Oh, not 2^(n-i), 2^(log n - i) |
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| 14:12:21 | <dolio> | Then turn it into a similar definite integral and ask wolfram alpha to solve it, and say something about correspondences between sums and integrals. |
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| 14:15:08 | <shiraeeshi> | the way I see it is, we have a triangle or a pyramid of decreasing number of increasing coefficients |
| 14:15:38 | <shiraeeshi> | but how do you go from that pyramid to n is not clear to me |
| 14:16:37 | <shiraeeshi> | (I should remind myself that it's not exactly n, but something like n in an asymptotic sense) |
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| 14:18:06 | <shiraeeshi> | wait, all the iterations take the same time |
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| 14:19:56 | <shiraeeshi> | no, sounds like it leads to O(n * log n) |
| 14:21:08 | <shiraeeshi> | perhaps I should try induction |
| 14:22:07 | <[Leary]> | It's almost always the simplest way, when it applies. |
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| 14:22:39 | <dolio> | I guess wolfram can just do the sum, actually. No need for integrals. |
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| 14:53:13 | <dolio> | shiraeeshi: BTW, if you have access to Knuth's Concrete Mathematics then Σ_k k*2^k is an example he shows how to solve using the calculus of finite differences. And that's the complicated part of Σ_k (lg n - k)*2^k, which is another way to write the sum. |
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| 15:17:21 | <shiraeeshi> | dolio: thanks, gonna take a look if I get stuck |
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| 15:21:29 | <triteraflops> | dminuoso: Yeah, I knew about this kind of typing, which is why I thought haskell couldn't do it on its own, without its linear extensions, for example. |
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| 15:57:21 | <juri_> | hmm. bumped GHC to 9.0.2, and now rounded-hw is failing to dependency resolve. :( |
| 15:58:41 | juri_ | pokes it with a stick. |
| 15:59:33 | shapr | explodes |
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| 16:01:46 | <shapr> | @seen dons |
| 16:01:47 | <lambdabot> | I saw dons leaving #haskell 1m 2h 46m 2s ago. |
| 16:01:53 | <shapr> | huh, a month? |
| 16:02:02 | <shapr> | I'm glad @seen is working again |
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| 16:08:37 | <lambdabot> | ∿∿∿∿∿∿∿∿∿∿∿∿∿ |
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| 16:10:32 | <shapr> | heippa hei Tuplanolla |
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| 16:14:03 | <Tuplanolla> | Hey, shapr. What's going on? |
| 16:14:23 | <shapr> | Oh, delaying getting started on some code. What about you? |
| 16:14:38 | <shapr> | I'm also trying to figure out the process for becoming a maintainer for a piece of GHC |
| 16:15:02 | <shapr> | And looking into lambdabot to see how much the code has changed in the past (checks calendar) uh, 20 years |
| 16:17:04 | <shapr> | Kinda awesome to see the initial import into git from, uh, darcs? : https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/commits?author=shapr |
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| 16:17:38 | <shapr> | Was lambdabot even *in* source control in the beginning? I don't remember. |
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| 16:26:15 | <dminuoso> | triteraflops: The linear extension is orthogonal (dual even, in a sense) to uniqueness types. |
| 16:26:41 | <dminuoso> | The uniqueness types in Clean form a secondary/orthogonal type system if I understand it correctly |
| 16:27:05 | <dminuoso> | And even with linear types, you couldn't do it. |
| 16:27:13 | <Tuplanolla> | Oh, cool. |
| 16:27:29 | <Tuplanolla> | I've been breaking another compiler instead. https://github.com/coq/coq/issues?q=is%3Aissue+author%3ATuplanolla |
| 16:28:04 | <shapr> | Tuplanolla: wow nice! that's a good run of breakage |
| 16:29:31 | <Tuplanolla> | If only it would end. |
| 16:29:31 | <shapr> | Also been working on some fun things with cdsmith, we built a MUD https://github.com/cdsmith/ourmud that's backed by a serializable graph database https://github.com/cdsmith/edgy |
| 16:29:33 | <lechner> | Hi, is there a difference in the "before" and "after"\ code examples for optparse-applicative here? https://blog.ocharles.org.uk/posts/2022-06-22-list-of-monoids-pattern.html |
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| 16:30:41 | <shapr> | In the process, we fixed up a few libraries to compile (and work?) with GHC 9.2.2; but I couldn't find a process for uploading "this probably works" kind of releases for packages that haven't been updated in a few years. |
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| 16:30:54 | <dminuoso> | lechner: Not that I can see. |
| 16:31:05 | <dminuoso> | Think some copy/paste bug stole its way in there |
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| 16:31:14 | <shapr> | @seen ocharles |
| 16:31:14 | <lambdabot> | I saw ocharles leaving #ghc 8d 18h 19m 34s ago. |
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| 16:32:47 | <Tuplanolla> | I still have one side project that's being written in Haskell. Oddly enough, it has to do with the modeling and visualization of a particular theory of psychology. |
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| 16:33:01 | <shapr> | well now I want a link |
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| 16:33:18 | <shiraeeshi> | shapr: what's MUD? |
| 16:33:31 | <geekosaur> | "multi-user dungeon" |
| 16:33:35 | <shapr> | multi user dungeon |
| 16:33:36 | <shapr> | yeah that |
| 16:33:45 | <shapr> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD |
| 16:34:10 | <lechner> | dminuoso: thanks! as a beginner, i wasn't sure |
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| 16:34:25 | <shiraeeshi> | wow, interesting |
| 16:34:28 | <Tuplanolla> | It's not public yet, because it doesn't even work, but here is the related organization. https://www.thebowencenter.org/ |
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| 16:34:54 | <Tuplanolla> | It's about "Bowen family systems theory". |
| 16:35:02 | <shapr> | haven't heard of that |
| 16:35:08 | <Tuplanolla> | Neither had I. |
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| 16:36:30 | <shiraeeshi> | Tuplanolla: what kind of visualization? |
| 16:36:48 | <shiraeeshi> | I mean, something like histograms, graphs, something else? |
| 16:36:59 | <Tuplanolla> | It looks like a dynamical system on a graph, so FGL, GraphViz and Gnuplot are a perfect fit for it. |
| 16:37:30 | <Tuplanolla> | I just wish there was a little less Henning in them. |
| 16:37:53 | <shiraeeshi> | it's weird that you use one word graph in english to talk about graphs, and, well, graphs |
| 16:38:19 | <shiraeeshi> | "graphical graphs" and "graphs as edges-and-nodes" |
| 16:38:27 | <Tuplanolla> | Well, all three senses are present, so it all works out! |
| 16:39:06 | <darkling> | I had a lecturer that pronounced them "graaph" (English RP) for the two-axes-and-aline thing, and "graf" (Northern English, short "a") for the nodes-and-edges thing. |
| 16:39:41 | <shapr> | I'm trying not to make jokes about a Van de Graph generator |
| 16:39:52 | <Tuplanolla> | Personally, I find "network" and "curve" to be more appropriate. |
| 16:39:59 | <shapr> | Is there a good binding to matplotlib or other graph visualization library? |
| 16:40:12 | <shapr> | I never could get my head wrapped around fgl, does it have benefits over alga? |
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| 16:40:13 | <Tuplanolla> | No; just bad, shapr. |
| 16:40:22 | <shapr> | oh, too bad |
| 16:40:25 | <shapr> | use diagrams instead? |
| 16:40:30 | <shapr> | or JuicyPixels? |
| 16:40:46 | <juri_> | ug. fighting juicyPixels build trouble atm. |
| 16:41:26 | <shapr> | I'm pushing PRs for the StrictCheck and TCache, though I don't expect them to be merged. |
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| 16:47:11 | <shapr> | juri_: are you making pretty pictures? |
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| 16:49:37 | <juri_> | shapr: I make things. :) |
| 16:49:58 | <juri_> | i just happen to support output formats that are pixel-based. |
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| 16:57:46 | <dminuoso> | lechner: I *think* the intent was to display `flag True False (mconcat [f1, f2, f3])` vs `flag True False [f1, f2, f3]` |
| 16:59:08 | <dminuoso> | Or perhaps `flag True False (f1 <> f2 <> f3)` in the former case |
| 16:59:48 | <dminuoso> | Judging from the final sentence, I think they meant to use (<>) in the before example |
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| 17:19:32 | <Henson> | has anybody here had experience with the StackBuilders or Serokell consulting companies for Haskell development? If so, would you be interested in telling me about it? |
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| 17:42:26 | <maerwald> | why am I mind boggled every time I look at 'readsPrec'? |
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| 17:44:38 | <moet> | maerwald: because it should have used Either/Maybe but instead uses a list. |
| 17:44:56 | <geekosaur> | because it's a crawling horror… |
| 17:45:02 | <maerwald> | 10 years of Haskell and I still can't write a Read instance by hand |
| 17:45:05 | <maerwald> | ... |
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| 18:00:10 | <Henson> | Read instances are weird |
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| 18:11:13 | <monochrom> | I can, after spending 10 hours on "the Hom functor" in category theory. Then it's "just" function composition :) |
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| 18:12:03 | <monochrom> | Oh wait, misread, you said Read, not Reader. |
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| 18:12:32 | <monochrom> | But I can write a Read instance by hand too. :) |
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| 18:14:01 | <monochrom> | I think it is because I wondered how do you know when and when not to add parentheses, and readsPrec answered my question. |
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| 18:14:52 | <monochrom> | Err wait, that's Shows and showsPrec. |
| 18:15:16 | <monochrom> | OK, I learned monads around the same time I learned Read, that's how. |
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| 18:27:27 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so, i had a weird thought... true pure functional code (with strictly no io, entropy sources etc) can only preserve the entropy of its inputs or decrease the entropy of its inputs |
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| 18:28:14 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | that is to say if i feed one megabyte worth of bits into pure functional code, i can get say, one byte out, or i can get one megabyte out, but i cannot get ten megabytes out |
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| 18:29:06 | <monochrom> | You know what, true of I/O too, you just have to draw your "system boundary" larger. |
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| 18:29:09 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | the pure functional code can produce what appears to be ten megabytes from one megabyte, but it will always compress |
| 18:29:23 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | monochrom: talking to me there? |
| 18:29:29 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 18:29:42 | <geekosaur> | only on ideal hardware. on real hardware there will be entropy leaks in both directions |
| 18:30:02 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | well yes i suppose you can "freeze" the amount of entropy fed into a pure functional snippet of code after an io event |
| 18:30:09 | <monochrom> | pure function + readFile cannot generate more info than input and what's already on disk. |
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| 18:30:50 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | geekosaur: there is probably nondeterminism which leaks into real-world pure functional code (even without io etc) when it executes (runtime, operating system, etc) |
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| 18:31:42 | <geekosaur> | and pure functional code itself can cause system load, heat output, cache effects, etc. |
| 18:32:07 | <monochrom> | Oh, that. |
| 18:32:16 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | geekosaur: right, that is an entropy input leak |
| 18:32:32 | <Tuplanolla> | The term for the other concept is "reversible computing". |
| 18:33:00 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | well, you can easily have nonreversible pure functions |
| 18:33:13 | <Tuplanolla> | Those produce waste heat. |
| 18:33:20 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | but all true pure functions are monotonically decreasing in their entropy or at best are entropy-preserving |
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| 18:34:10 | <monochrom> | Well, in this context we focus on input entropy and output entropy. output <= input can be true because output + waste heat >= input. We are in agreement. |
| 18:34:47 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i don't mean physical entropy here i mean information theory entropy |
| 18:34:59 | <monochrom> | Instead of idealizing hardware, I am idealizing "output". |
| 18:35:01 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and yes i know about the physical reversibility stuff |
| 18:36:01 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | anyway i just thought this was an interesting observation |
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| 18:56:40 | <Henson> | by inputs, do you mean inputs to the function generating the outputs, or does inputs also include the content of the function doing the generating? |
| 18:56:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | my pure function is f and i am feeding it x, so i am calling f x |
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| 18:57:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | entropy of (f x) is strictly equal to or less than that of x if f is a truely pure function |
| 18:57:43 | <Henson> | a face-generation ML network as a function that takes a seed integer as an input would be able to greatly amplify the information present in the input, but all of the potential for that information generation resides in the face-generating function |
| 18:58:34 | <ski> | maerwald : `readsPrec' isn't much harder than `showsPrec' |
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| 18:58:53 | <ski> | moet_ : that breaks distributivity |
| 18:59:00 | <maerwald> | ski: great... tell me how to debug "no parse" |
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| 19:00:02 | <moet_> | ski: :thinkthink: |
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| 19:01:47 | ski | . o O ( "1972 - Alain Colmerauer designs the logic language Prolog. His goal is to create a language with the intelligence of a two year old. He proves he has reached his goal by showing a Prolog session that says \"No.\" to every query." -- "A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages" by James Iry in 2009-05-07 at |
| 19:01:52 | ski | <https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html> ) |
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| 19:14:13 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | Henson: face-generation? wha...? |
| 19:15:10 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | Henson: it's just the pidgeonhole principle, and the only observation here is that the pidgeonhole principle applies to pure functions/programming, which is just something i hadn't considered |
| 19:15:47 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | what is the practical significance of this observation? i suppose that you can use this kind of observation to think about the "memoizability or partial memoizability" of your code |
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| 19:40:42 | <monochrom> | Significance for environmentalists: Functional programming cannot be carbon-neutral. >:) |
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| 19:41:37 | <monochrom> | Significance for security entrepenuers: Functional programming always leaks information in side channels. >:) |
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| 19:43:41 | <Tisoxin> | Is there a tool that shows if a binding is used strict or lazy (due to strictness analysis)? |
| 19:43:58 | <Tisoxin> | I think I'd be really nice to have sth. like that in HLS |
| 19:44:03 | <unit73e> | I only know practical comparisons, like this colleague was trying to program Java like Haskell or maybe Scala and I had to tell him to give it up. Putting lipstick in a horse doesn't make it prettier. |
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| 19:44:27 | <unit73e> | also hi |
| 19:44:31 | <monochrom> | The horse is already pretty. |
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| 19:44:38 | <unit73e> | it does the job |
| 19:45:31 | <unit73e> | anyway he was trying to make Java declarative, but verbosity of the language design ends up always looking meh |
| 19:45:38 | <monochrom> | But you can try this better analogy: putting lipstick around your eyes. 8) |
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| 19:46:42 | <monochrom> | Tisoxin: If you know how to read the output of -ddump-stg, it has that information. |
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| 19:49:06 | <monochrom> | I haven't used -ddump-str-signatures, but it is advertised as "Dump strictness signatures". |
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| 19:53:54 | <monochrom> | Looks like s/-ddump-stg/-ddump-simpl/ suffices. https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/hints.html#faster-producing-a-program-that-runs-quicker then scroll down to "How do I find out a function’s strictness?" for how to read the notation. |
| 19:54:49 | <monochrom> | "Besides, Core syntax is fun to look at!" haha |
| 19:54:55 | <monochrom> | "have fun" |
| 19:55:18 | <Franciman> | re. carbon neutral, we have a monad for that! |
| 19:55:45 | <Franciman> | or maybe it should be a comonad? |
| 19:55:48 | <Franciman> | hmm |
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| 19:56:09 | <Tisoxin> | > "Besides, Core syntax is fun to look at!" haha |
| 19:56:10 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: haha |
| 19:56:17 | <Tisoxin> | It's actually not that bad with inspection-testing |
| 19:57:47 | <mshiraeeshi> | unit73e: borrowing some ideas from fp when coding in java could work in some cases |
| 19:58:04 | <mshiraeeshi> | I think you should judge on case-by-case basis |
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| 20:00:22 | <unit73e> | mshiraeeshi, agreed. the issue was that the guy was trying to have small methods for everything without thinking much about why. a failed attempt to make code readable. it's hard when java has some design flaws. |
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| 20:00:39 | <unit73e> | it's not a horrible language but definitely has its flaws |
| 20:00:56 | <ski> | "Java Precisely" by Peter Sestoft (of Moscow ML fame) in 2016 (3rd ed.) at <https://www.itu.dk/people/sestoft/javaprecisely/> covers functional interfaces, streams, parallel streams, parallel arrays |
| 20:00:58 | <monochrom> | Like this? http://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/Nightmare.java |
| 20:00:59 | <unit73e> | now perl, perl is horrible. sorry perl fans |
| 20:03:00 | <unit73e> | I'd say scala is java done right, though bloated |
| 20:04:02 | <Tisoxin> | It'd rather call it a better version of java, instead of java done right |
| 20:04:05 | <dolio> | People have been functional programming in Java for a long time. I remember way back reading some book on the AWT, and it described this really 'novel' data structure that got used for event listeners... |
| 20:04:19 | <dolio> | The novel data structure was an immutable tree. :þ |
| 20:04:50 | <mshiraeeshi> | unit73e: take a Flyweight pattern from GoF book, for example |
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| 20:04:52 | <dolio> | What a concept. |
| 20:04:54 | <unit73e> | Tisoxin, fair enough |
| 20:04:58 | <monochrom> | Ah, so functional programming has been novel in Java for a long time? :) |
| 20:05:22 | <mshiraeeshi> | "Use sharing to support large numbers of fine-grained objects efficiently" |
| 20:05:47 | <mshiraeeshi> | that's how String in Java works and that's the reason String is immutable in Java, btw |
| 20:06:00 | <monochrom> | I had been saying "I'll finish my thesis in a year" for many years, too. |
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| 20:08:59 | <unit73e> | I finished my thesis... but I'm one of those guys that starts projects and doesn't finish lol |
| 20:09:25 | <unit73e> | my xp3 extract thingy is working |
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| 20:10:55 | <monochrom> | We turn induction into co-induction |
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| 20:14:15 | <Henson> | has anybody here had experience with the StackBuilders or Serokell consulting companies for Haskell development? If so, would you be interested in telling me about it? |
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| 20:16:53 | <mshiraeeshi> | although I'm not sure we can say that the idea of "making things immutable to enable sharing of large numbers of objects" originated from fp |
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| 20:17:42 | <mshiraeeshi> | perhaps it's more like a convergence, when the same idea gets invented in several paradigms independently |
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| 20:24:18 | <EvanR> | pure functional programming predates java at least |
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| 20:24:48 | <mshiraeeshi> | it's like asking "if two melodies are similar, does it mean than one plagiarized the other?" |
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| 20:25:27 | <EvanR> | what are we railing against? If stealing ideas from other languages is technically stealing? xD |
| 20:26:17 | <mshiraeeshi> | whether applying fp techniques in Java is a good or bad idea |
| 20:26:17 | <monochrom> | In the case of music, plagiarism can happen and can be bad. |
| 20:26:30 | <EvanR> | immutable data can be good anywhere |
| 20:26:40 | <monochrom> | This does not apply to cross pollination in programming. |
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| 20:27:32 | <monochrom> | But to answer the question of what we are railing against: |
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| 20:27:54 | <EvanR> | on fp in java, if monochrom hasn't posted their lazy list implemented in java via exceptions yet, maybe they should. As an example of "bad" xD |
| 20:27:55 | <monochrom> | Everyone is railing against someone else having an ever so slightly different opinion, obviously. |
| 20:28:28 | <monochrom> | But I think I posted it already! |
| 20:28:31 | <dolio> | Yeah, using exceptions for that definitely sounds bad. |
| 20:28:49 | <EvanR> | figured |
| 20:29:03 | <monochrom> | Oh, post and state that it's bad. |
| 20:29:15 | <EvanR> | no it stands for itself |
| 20:29:44 | <monochrom> | Is having "humour" in the URL close enough? :) |
| 20:29:57 | <monochrom> | and using the filename "Nightmare" |
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| 20:30:41 | <EvanR> | does java have an "acme" section |
| 20:31:22 | <monochrom> | I think the number or percentage of people who use my Nightmare.java technique is about the same as that of using that "type-level interview solution" technique. |
| 20:31:49 | <monochrom> | Java doesn't have a community central repo, does it? |
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| 20:32:01 | <dolio> | Maven? |
| 20:32:18 | <monochrom> | Ah OK my bad. |
| 20:32:22 | <Henson> | monochrom: where can I find your Nightmare.java technique? |
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| 20:32:39 | <monochrom> | http://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/Nightmare.java |
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| 20:39:52 | <Tuplanolla> | Wait, why exceptions? |
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| 20:40:36 | <geekosaur> | just to prove it could be done? |
| 20:40:46 | <EvanR> | Because It's There |
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| 20:42:07 | <monochrom> | Because it is closest to pattern matching. :) |
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| 20:43:02 | <slack1256> | It there an option so the `-xc` dumps a json instead of the usual format? Google cloud run doesn't deal with raw text well. |
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| 20:43:56 | <monochrom> | And some SML users use their exception system for OOP because it's the only subtyping system. :) |
| 20:44:36 | <Tuplanolla> | Pleasant disgust. |
| 20:44:48 | <EvanR> | one of the next 700 languages needs to give up and just make exceptions the only thing |
| 20:45:09 | <EvanR> | "everything's an exception" |
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| 20:45:19 | <EvanR> | (ironically) |
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| 20:45:42 | <monochrom> | Next April 1st, someone might claim "I found an unpublished secret paper of Guy Steeles, it's called Exception: The Ultimate Lambda" >:) |
| 20:45:45 | <geekosaur> | pretty soon everything will have to produce json output and compile to or simply bve javascript, the only language |
| 20:46:19 | <slack1256> | Well, maps are useful :> |
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| 20:46:48 | <EvanR> | google can't convert literally anything to json yet? |
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| 20:47:17 | <slack1256> | Not -xc output atleast. It record a new json per line. And my stack traces are looooong. |
| 20:47:29 | <slack1256> | s_record_records_ |
| 20:47:47 | <mshiraeeshi> | lol, and "main" jumpstarts everything with a single "throw" statement |
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| 20:48:25 | <monochrom> | Isn't it a beauty. |
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| 20:48:53 | <mshiraeeshi> | it's interesting though how would SML users model exceptions in OOP |
| 20:49:01 | <mshiraeeshi> | exceptions on top of exceptions |
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| 20:49:38 | <mshiraeeshi> | or just exceptions would suffice? not sure |
| 20:50:33 | <ski> | `exn' is an "open sum type". you can even generate new exception constructors at run-time (e.g. every time a function is called) |
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| 20:51:37 | <monochrom> | Yeah they don't use throw like I do. They just enjoy exn being a parent type. |
| 20:52:32 | <monochrom> | IOW they declare a lot of "exceptions" that are never throw but just used as normal parameters and normal return values. |
| 20:52:43 | <monochrom> | s/throw/thrown/ |
| 20:53:09 | <monochrom> | Oh haha do you mind if I also call my technique "the game of throws" |
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| 21:05:47 | <alexfmpe[m]> | is there a way to write the equivalent of... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/675e0345137e20b45e428da1305e5860386d98c8) |
| 21:06:10 | <alexfmpe[m]> | since `D` can't figure out the `y` even though there's a functional dependency |
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| 21:07:09 | <haskellapprenti> | pl \a b -> if f a b == GT then a else b |
| 21:07:19 | <haskellapprenti> | @pl \a b -> if f a b == GT then a else b |
| 21:07:19 | <lambdabot> | join . (flip =<< (if' .) . flip flip GT . ((==) .) . f) |
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| 21:08:14 | <slack1256> | alexfmpe[m]: Maybe an explicit forall? |
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| 21:08:54 | <alexfmpe[m]> | er, where |
| 21:10:01 | <slack1256> | class definition of D. |
| 21:10:28 | <slack1256> | alexfmpe[m]: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/quantified-constraints |
| 21:10:43 | <slack1256> | Seems what you want. But you will use the most basic example. |
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| 21:11:11 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I mean sure, `class (forall y. C x y) => D x` compiles |
| 21:11:15 | <alexfmpe[m]> | but that means a different thing |
| 21:11:38 | <alexfmpe[m]> | that forces `C x` to work for all `y` |
| 21:12:00 | <alexfmpe[m]> | meanwhile there's a fundep saying `x -> y` |
| 21:12:09 | <alexfmpe[m]> | not sure why this even compiles actually |
| 21:12:19 | <slack1256> | Who cares about y on that instance actually? |
| 21:12:34 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I guess an unsatisfiable constraint is still allowed, just unusable |
| 21:12:53 | <slack1256> | I mean what method |
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| 21:13:51 | <alexfmpe[m]> | well these classes are method-less, I ran into this on a more complex scenario |
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| 21:13:56 | <alexfmpe[m]> | basically `D` adds an identity |
| 21:14:35 | <alexfmpe[m]> | or rather, `D` reproduces the issue I had on the class where I wanted to add an identity |
| 21:16:18 | <slack1256> | Any particular reason why you don't want to use Type Families? |
| 21:16:34 | <alexfmpe[m]> | indeed, trying the quantifiable thing leads to a deadend |
| 21:16:34 | <alexfmpe[m]> | `instance D Bool` -> No instance for (C Bool y) |
| 21:16:34 | <alexfmpe[m]> | `instance C y` -> The coverage condition fails in class ‘C’ for functional dependency: ‘x -> y’ |
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| 21:16:46 | <slack1256> | AFAIK functional dependencies where more of a hack to make type inference work in presence of MTL like effects. |
| 21:16:49 | <alexfmpe[m]> | nah, TF are fine, I was just confirming whether they're necessary |
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| 21:17:46 | <ski> | (yes, you'd rather want `exists', than `forall') |
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| 22:43:32 | <Guest4431> | Hello here. I'm considering buying Real World Haskell book. But it has been edited in 2007. Im wondering, do the free, web version is more up to date than the paper version ? |
| 22:45:24 | <geekosaur> | they're the same, but the online one has an associated wiki with updates |
| 22:45:50 | <hpc> | http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/installing-ghc-and-haskell-libraries.html mentions "late 2008" and has XP screenshots |
| 22:45:54 | <hpc> | so probably not? |
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| 22:58:05 | <unit73e> | huh, so I was going to implement my animation SDL thingy but turns out someone already made it |
| 22:58:33 | <unit73e> | just goes to show I should search hackage more |
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| 23:01:34 | <unit73e> | I do have a stupid question. let's say a package is unmaintained. now what? can someone else pick it or it's dead? |
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| 23:03:34 | <hpc> | the hackage admins can transfer ownership, there's a policy documented somewhere on how, iirc it's contact the maintainer and get 3 months of silence? |
| 23:05:05 | <unit73e> | ok thanks. because as I see it in haskell the naming scheme is very simple. it's just the name of the package. |
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| 23:25:39 | <jackdk> | hpc, unit73e: https://wiki.haskell.org/Taking_over_a_package is the policy |
| 23:25:58 | <jackdk> | Although the wiki seems to be struggling right now? |
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| 23:26:37 | <unit73e> | jackdk, I was able to read it. looks straightfoward. |
| 23:26:49 | <unit73e> | thanks |
| 23:26:55 | <jackdk> | (Yeah, wiki's fine. My browser was chucking a tanty) |
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| 23:34:52 | <hpc> | is chucking a tanty when it goes right wazzock, or just a wee bit barmy? :P |
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| 23:40:37 | <raehik> | does anyone know if we have a Google Cloud lib for Haskell, like AWS/amazonka? I looked around but couldn't find one |
| 23:40:58 | <raehik> | that had much reach anyway |
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| 23:43:27 | <hpc> | as it so happens, there's one literally called amazonka |
| 23:44:01 | <hpc> | it's got a zillion subpackages, so at the very least it's matching the sprawling nature of aws itself :D |
| 23:44:14 | <geekosaur> | I think that's what they were referring to |
| 23:44:30 | <geekosaur> | but I don't know of a google cloud equivalent |
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| 23:46:01 | <hpc> | oh wow, i can't read |
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| 23:50:38 | <raehik> | gotcha then no one will mind if I push a tiny package handling only what I've needed |
All times are in UTC on 2022-06-23.