Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-06-26 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:11:38 <JensPetersen[m]> Is there a tool that can rename a module? hls??
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01:35:16 <jackdk> monochrom: because defining types in other languages is often a Big Ceremony, so it can feel like a different kind of thing
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01:56:50 ski . o O ( "To stand on high ceremony / First leap off hinge and bracket" -- Castle Master Rhyme )
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05:55:38 sm is intrigued
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06:35:01 <sm> I'm a little confused by the latest discussion on https://github.com/haskellfoundation/tech-proposals/issues/35 . Isn't the change from String to AbstractFilePath a major breaking change ? Isn't it normal practice to signal that with a big version change ? Wouldn't avoiding that be strictly speaking a kludge to try to reduce upgrade work ?
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06:54:17 <Maxdamantus> sm: not particularly knowledgable about this, but which parts are you looking at in particular? afaics stages 1 and 2 should be non-breaking.
06:54:50 <Maxdamantus> since they're just about adding the alias and warning when the alias is not used.
06:55:22 <Maxdamantus> (presumably stage 3 would be a breaking change, but dunno if that's what you're referring to)
06:56:10 <sm> Maxdamantus: where are those stages... the Current State section ?
06:56:36 <Maxdamantus> This is what I read the other day: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/proposal/abstract-file-path (linked from the GH issue)
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06:58:29 <sm> wow, this is old.. page history doesn't show all of it either
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07:00:10 <Maxdamantus> Hm. Didn't notice the date. I did notice that (m)aerwald seemed to be talking about details that were not in that wiki page.
07:02:01 <sm> thanks for the link. Yes I'm talking about whenever the API actually changes in a visible way
07:02:26 <Maxdamantus> The good thing about the wiki page is that it's not necessarily incompatible with how I think things should work.
07:03:46 <Maxdamantus> since at the end of the process, `FilePath` could just become an alias for a proper Unicode 8-bit string type (ie, UTF-8 without a well-formedness restriction).
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07:08:16 <EvanR> ..I'm not sure how a utf-8 string type helps filepath issues?
07:08:39 <EvanR> even on linux, filesystems may not be using utf8
07:08:52 <Maxdamantus> Right, so it shouldn't have a well-formedness restriction.
07:08:58 <Maxdamantus> It should allow any Unicode 8-bit string.
07:08:59 <Maxdamantus> afk
07:09:06 <Maxdamantus> (ie, any bytestring)
07:09:08 <EvanR> what's a unicode 8-bit string
07:09:35 <EvanR> bytestring might work
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07:11:54 <dsal> I worked on a filesystem abstraction that used ByteString because it was necessary in order to represent all possible file paths on the system. It's annoying, but people do annoying things and avoiding the representation doesn't make it easier.
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07:15:26 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: what happens with filepaths that are not unicode?
07:16:00 <energizer> presumably nothing special
07:16:10 <energizer> they're just bytestrings
07:16:30 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: btw... PEP 383 isn't total when converting from [Char]. It can fail
07:16:53 <maerwald[m]> energizer: I mean when you convert them to [Char]
07:17:02 <energizer> why would you tho
07:19:21 <maerwald[m]> energizer: because that's a common representation. If you want to filter all files that have a specific printable unicode character, you need to do that
07:20:01 <maerwald[m]> When you enforce UTF-8, you get garbage
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07:21:44 <maerwald[m]> sm: not a breaking change. It's additional API, will not even be a major version bump
07:22:36 <energizer> maerwald[m]: yeah that conversion is fallible
07:23:13 <maerwald[m]> energizer: decoding with PEP 383 is total. Encoding isn't
07:23:14 <sm> maerwald: won't `FilePath` in haskell code have a different meaning at some point ?
07:23:23 <maerwald[m]> sm: probably not
07:23:28 <sm> I see.. thanks
07:23:44 <maerwald[m]> The new type will be OsPath
07:23:56 <sm> nice.. thanks for your work on it
07:25:16 sm proceeds to bikeshed "OsPath"
07:25:42 <maerwald[m]> energizer: we would need a Char type in Haskell that represents only Unicode scalars (without surrogates), but we don't have one
07:25:56 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: if there's the "proper Unicode 8-bit string type" that I'm talking about (equivalent to `ByteString`, but more stringy), you wouldn't need to convert to `[Char]`.
07:26:21 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: if you do convert to `[Char]`, that's essentially a Unicode conversion, where errors will be replaced with replacement characters.
07:26:38 <Maxdamantus> ie, just like what happens when converting from UTF-8 to UTF-16.
07:27:18 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: that makes no sense. What do you do with filepaths that are not UTF-8?
07:27:32 <Maxdamantus> the idea is that for correct handling of arbitrary strings, there should be an obvious type to use. That applies to reading text from files as well as text from filenames.
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07:27:35 <maerwald[m]> You have to decode them first, then encode again
07:27:56 <maerwald[m]> That means you have to convert to [Char]
07:28:05 <maerwald[m]> And now you get garbage
07:29:26 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: you should be able to do things like write them to standard out, or concatenate them to get bigger strings. Neither of those operations involve any conversion, so they shouldn't corrupt any data.
07:29:57 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: you are corrupting data, you're just doing it in a lossless way
07:30:19 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: no. If you're preserving the input bytes as output bytes, there's no data corruption.
07:30:32 <maerwald[m]> Anyone trying to interpret printable unicode chars gets garbage
07:30:41 <maerwald[m]> Yes that is corruption
07:30:52 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: data corruption is when you have to replace bits of the input with replacement characters, which you only need to do when interacting with other encoding forms.
07:30:57 <Maxdamantus> eg, UTF-16 or [Char]
07:31:01 <Maxdamantus> $ echo $'\xff'foobar | grep -a a | xxd
07:31:02 <Maxdamantus> 00000000: ff66 6f6f 6261 720a .foobar.
07:31:30 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: i consider this corruption, because I may get wrong results
07:31:35 <Maxdamantus> `grep` is a text-based command, but there's no reason for it to convert to UTF-16, so as demonstrated in that command, there's no need to corrupt the input data.
07:31:46 <Maxdamantus> how is it corruption if it didn't modify the input?
07:31:58 <Maxdamantus> corruption necessarily involves modifying something.
07:32:03 <maerwald[m]> Because you lost encoding information
07:32:39 <Maxdamantus> What encoding information was lost?
07:32:46 <Maxdamantus> There is no encoding information in the input.
07:32:53 <maerwald[m]> The original encoding
07:33:00 <Maxdamantus> and there's no encoding information in the output. Nothing was lost or corrupted.
07:33:03 <maerwald[m]> Of course there is
07:33:15 <Maxdamantus> The ill-formed Unicode sequence <FF> was preserved.
07:33:53 <Maxdamantus> If the operation had to convert to UTF-16 for some reason, it would likely have been replaced with U+FFFD, which would be a form of corruption (information loss).
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07:34:20 <maerwald[m]> If your filepath is CP932 and you convert it to escaped UTF-8 and then convert that to [Char], you lost the original encoding and get garbage
07:34:55 <Maxdamantus> Sure, but you should be able to do a lot of things without converting.
07:35:01 <Maxdamantus> That's how Unicode has been designed.
07:35:36 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: yes, exactly. You should be able to do a lot of things without touching the encoding at all. That's what the propossl does
07:35:42 <Maxdamantus> and as I said the other day, that's how ICU works, and it's how other systems endorsed by the Unicode consortium work.
07:36:07 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: UTF-8 escaping is not endorsed by the consortium
07:36:13 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: right, which is why I said:
07:36:14 <Maxdamantus> 19:02:25 < Maxdamantus> The good thing about the wiki page is that it's not necessarily incompatible with how I think things should work.
07:36:17 <Maxdamantus> 19:03:46 < Maxdamantus> since at the end of the process, `FilePath` could just become an alias for a proper Unicode 8-bit string type (ie, UTF-8 without a well-formedness restriction).
07:36:24 <maerwald[m]> https://unicode.org/L2/L2009/09236-pep383-problems.html
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07:38:03 <Maxdamantus> imo PEP-383 is a workaround to a bad Unicode implementation.
07:38:11 <Maxdamantus> It was devised after Python 3 was released.
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07:38:23 <Maxdamantus> So I agree that there are problems with PEP-383.
07:38:26 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: you were just suggesting to use it
07:38:39 <Maxdamantus> Where?
07:39:26 <Maxdamantus> I remember you mentioned the other day that it could be used to support round-tripping with `type FilePath = String`.
07:39:41 <Maxdamantus> I don't really like that though.
07:39:42 <maerwald[m]> That's the only way to convert arbitrary ByteStrings to UTF-8 without well formedness check
07:40:02 <Maxdamantus> My proposal is to not convert.
07:40:15 <Maxdamantus> There is no way to convert arbitrary `ByteString`s to well-formed UTF-8.
07:40:25 <maerwald[m]> Exactly
07:40:28 <Maxdamantus> (at least, not idempotently)
07:40:46 <Maxdamantus> Right, so the Unicode string type should just handle arbitrary bytestrings.
07:40:54 <maerwald[m]> So why would you call a bytestring UTF-8 then
07:42:06 <Maxdamantus> You can call it an 8-bit Unicode string if you want to be more explicit that there's no well-formedness constraint. I can't remember the exact terminology I've always used, but afaik "UTF-8 string" in Unicode basically means the same thing as "8-bit Unicode string", which doesn't imply well-formedness.
07:42:22 <Maxdamantus> "8-bit Unicode string" is equivalent to "bytestring".
07:42:51 <maerwald[m]> Uhm, no?
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07:43:52 <Maxdamantus> https://unicode.org/glossary/#U
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07:43:54 <Maxdamantus> > Unicode String. A code unit sequence containing code units of a particular Unicode encoding form (whether well-formed or not). (See definition D80 in Section 3.9, Unicode Encoding Forms.)
07:43:56 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:60: error: parse error on input ‘of’
07:44:23 <maerwald[m]> UTF-8 doesn't denote arbitrary bytestrings
07:44:56 <maerwald[m]> The only way to handle arbitrary bytestrings is: 1. Not touch the bytestring at all and 2. Allow to specify the encoding when converting
07:45:04 <maerwald[m]> That's what the new API does
07:46:19 <Maxdamantus> https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode14.0.0/ch03.pdf
07:46:29 <Maxdamantus> > Unicode 8-bit string: A Unicode string containing only UTF-8 code units.
07:46:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:73: error:
07:46:30 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
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07:47:37 <Maxdamantus> > D78 Code unit sequence: An ordered sequence of one or more code units.
07:47:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:45: error: parse error on input ‘of’
07:47:48 <Maxdamantus> > When the code unit is an 8-bit unit, a code unit sequence may also be referred to as a byte sequence.
07:47:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:36: error: parse error on input ‘,’
07:48:06 <Maxdamantus> Should probably have used a different character for line quotes.
07:48:24 <maerwald[m]> Maxdamantus: that still follows the UTF-8 Bit distribution, which doesn't express arbitrary distribution
07:49:02 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: that's not true. Feel free to read the Unicode chapter.
07:49:11 <maerwald[m]> I did
07:49:13 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: it discusses ill-formed Unicode strings.
07:49:35 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: it even gives examples of what it calls "UTF-8 code unit sequences" that are ill-formed.
07:49:58 <maerwald[m]> Well, what's the point to call it UTF-8 when it's arbitrary bytestrings then?
07:51:24 <Maxdamantus> maerwald[m]: why call it "text" if it can represent things that are not text, like "����"?
07:52:09 <maerwald[m]> I think this is not helpful
07:52:29 <Maxdamantus> Sure, it's not particularly relevant anyway.
07:53:00 <Maxdamantus> This is simply how the Unicode standard describes things.
07:53:38 <Maxdamantus> as I said, you can say "Unicode 8-bit string" to be explicit, which seems to be used in the standard.
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11:18:51 <kenaryn> Hello. I implemented an instance for a new data type following a Chris Allen's book exercice. It compiles and I understand not how to call it in the REPL; the compiler tells me the data constructor is not in scope. Can someone guide me please? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/SwliVMAg
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11:20:05 <[Leary]> That's the type constructor. Your data constructor is `Two`.
11:20:33 <[Leary]> Also, that Eq instance can be derived.
11:21:49 <kenaryn> The instance implementation itself is the exercice's purpose.
11:24:04 <kenaryn> Calling the data constructor (i.e. `Two 11 12 == Two 9 1`) produces the same error.
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11:26:42 <shiraeeshi> the command is ":l the-name-of-the-file.hs"
11:27:20 <[Leary]> Yes, that or import the module.
11:33:23 <kenaryn> Apologies, I loaded the wrong module. Thank you.
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11:48:29 <BusConscious> hello everyone, yesterday I learned about record update syntax
11:48:49 <BusConscious> now I want to do something like: append f toAdd cmd = cmd { f = [toAdd] ++ f cmd}
11:49:14 <BusConscious> where f is the field of list type I want to append stuff to
11:49:28 <BusConscious> but it says "Not in scope: 'f'"
11:49:54 <geekosaur> sadly, f can't be a variable there
11:50:06 <geekosaur> this is the big wart in record update syntax
11:50:45 <[Leary]> Unfortunately, record fields aren't first class. Fortunately, this has lead to the invention of lenses. Unfortunately again, lenses can't be recommended to beginners.
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11:59:09 <BusConscious> I will look into that sooner or later though
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11:59:15 <BusConscious> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-tutorial-1.0.4/docs/Control-Lens-Tutorial.html
11:59:33 <BusConscious> Do lenses only work with template haskell?
12:00:01 <[Leary]> No, it's just convenient to eliminate boilerplate.
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12:07:33 <maerwald[m]> You can also use generics to derive them
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12:26:09 <BusConscious> I heeded to some advice ski gave me https://github.com/MartinErhardt/kell/commit/11ba0e73baa6cbed12c5a98fd5af9bb45e72c47c
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12:29:34 <BusConscious> In addition I also mapped over (-> TokParser String) in lines 108 and 84 and did applicative Syntax in line 139 over (-> TokParser [(a,Token)])
12:30:38 <BusConscious> not sure if this makes the code more readable though when compared to the original lambda solution I retained in line 94
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12:37:58 <BusConscious> derp mapping over (-> TokParser String) is just concatenation lol
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12:46:48 <[Leary]> BusConscious: I see several cases of `if a then Just b else Nothing` or equivalent. For that you can write `guard a $> b` instead.
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13:00:35 <BusConscious> [Leary]: So what guard does it creates either failed empty monad if the predicate is false or an empty monad then we use $> to map a constant function that evaluates to b over that monad.
13:00:59 <BusConscious> and we can only do that if the monad is not empty. And in the maybe monad Nothing is the empty monad
13:01:25 <BusConscious> is this the correct explanation of what's going on there?
13:02:25 <BusConscious> correction: it creates either failed empty monad if the predicate is false or a monad with value ()
13:03:25 <[Leary]> It sounds like you understand.
13:03:35 <geekosaur> although in all cases it's "monadic value"
13:05:04 <[Leary]> Yeah, the terminology is a bit off. I'd also note that the value isn't even necessarily monadic; it only needs Alternative.
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14:30:42 <unit73e> do you guys use stack or cabal more?
14:31:08 <[exa]> cabal
14:31:28 <geekosaur> it's about 50-50 in here, and reportedly skewed more toward stack in other venues
14:31:52 <unit73e> I use cabal more but only because stack apparently didn't like having multiple executables or at least I didn't figure out how
14:32:01 <unit73e> and I needed that
14:32:08 <geekosaur> I personally never use stack
14:32:20 <unit73e> I don't see much of an advantage tbh
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14:32:25 <unit73e> It's sort of a "maven"
14:32:43 <unit73e> but if anyone can convince me otherwise
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14:33:18 <geekosaur> especially with the 3.8 prerelease which adds among other things better support for stackage resolvers, the two do pretty much the same things in somewhat different ways
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14:35:03 <[Leary]> I used it for a while, back when its original selling point of "cabal is broken" still held water. Now it's like, a philosophical difference.
14:35:11 <unit73e> so it seems yes. stack seems reduntant to me and actually complicates a bit more because it has .cabal anyway
14:35:52 <unit73e> at least stack has shown what was the problem
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14:36:34 <unit73e> now cabal could have terminal colors, that annoys me
14:37:03 <geekosaur> I think stack still has more traction in industry, because it's easier to set up a local resolver than a local hackage
14:37:35 <geekosaur> and it's often important in those contexts to make sure everyone's on the same page re package versions
14:37:45 <unit73e> yes and the original premise makes sense in the industry because you want a fixed set of versions given a base version
14:38:09 <[exa]> unit73e: some super complicated projects have it as a requirement and it kinda makes sense there, esp. if you need very precise ghc versioning or so
14:38:38 <cdsmith> My advice is that stack is a reasonable choice if you only want to build your project with one set of dependencies. Its "advantage" now is that it makes it easy to build from a blessed set of dependencies, including GHC version and such. But if you're maintaining libraries that need to work across many GHC and dependency versions, stack just doesn't make any sense at all.
14:38:56 <c_wraith> yeah, stack is sort of hostile towards library authors
14:39:24 <c_wraith> at least it doesn't recommend publishing libraries with totally broken .cabal files anymore
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14:40:09 <unit73e> right, that's my feeling too. the restrictions actually slow down progress. if everyone followed semantic versioning (or the equivalent) it wouldn't be a problem but here we are.
14:40:25 <[exa]> packaging is hard
14:40:28 <unit73e> yup
14:41:26 <[exa]> linear versions do not manage various multiple interwingled features very well
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15:36:10 <SridharRatnakuma> `type family F a b where F a b = undefined`. What's the simplest way to implement this such that `F "Foo" "Foo_Bar" == "bar"`? AFAICT, I could build it from scratch using `UnconsSymbol` - but that feels too low-level.
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15:42:15 <SridharRatnakuma> Real-world context, if anyone's wondering: https://github.com/srid/ema/pull/96
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15:46:35 <sm> <..obligatory balancing advocacy for stack's strengths here..>
15:47:40 <unit73e> SridharRatnakuma, I don't get it
15:47:59 <unit73e> what's the objective?
15:50:54 <dmj`> SridharRatnakuma: probably defining families StripPrefix, Drop and then ToLower.
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15:56:40 <dmj`> > ord 'a' - ord 'A'
15:56:42 <lambdabot> 32
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15:57:14 <dmj`> type family ToLower (c :: Char) :: Nat where ToLower c = NatToChar (CharToNat c + 32)
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15:59:32 <unit73e> so he objective is to strip the prefix and lower case with a map from type to string?
16:00:20 <dmj`> unit73e: yea, could do convert to camel case from snake case, then strip prefix
16:00:35 <dmj`> and toLower
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16:06:46 <SridharRatnakuma> Here's an opportunity to author a type-level `Symbol` processing library
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16:11:59 <dmj`> SridharRatnakuma: hah, for real
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16:12:29 <dmj`> SridharRatnakuma: alex-type-level
16:12:50 <SridharRatnakuma> Ah, `UnconsSymbol` is only available from 9.2.1.
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16:16:40 <kenaryn> Please what are the numeric types that implement NOT the Num type class?
16:19:34 <kenaryn> Seems to me there are Scientific and Rational.
16:20:39 <kenaryn> Another questions: how the compiler perform a division without implementing a division method in Num type class?
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16:26:03 <ski> @instances-importing Data.Ratio Num
16:26:05 <lambdabot> Double, Float, Int, Integer, Product a, Ratio a, Sum a, Word
16:26:14 <ski> @src Rational
16:26:14 <lambdabot> type Rational = Ratio Integer
16:26:28 <ski> also `Scientific' seems to be in `Num'
16:28:27 <ski> it's not clear what you mean by "numeric types". often that is taken to mean those types that are instances of `Num'. (although i'm sure, with alternative/redesigned numeric classes, one could possibly have some types that are instances of those, but not `Num' and friends. i guess one'd lose literal overloading with `fromInteger' and `fromRational', though)
16:29:14 <kenaryn> Thank you ski. I understand not all what you say but you're kind.
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16:30:35 <geekosaur> as for division, there are two kinds of division: integer division and floating division. as such, `div` is in the Interal typeclass and (/) is in the Fractional typeclass
16:30:44 <geekosaur> both of which require Num
16:31:00 <geekosaur> *Integral
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16:34:01 <geekosaur> and Rational is separate from both since it's a ratio; you use (%) with that
16:34:30 <monochrom> Ugh Rational is an instance of Fractional too.
16:34:35 <monochrom> > 3/4 :: Rational
16:34:37 <lambdabot> 3 % 4
16:34:49 <geekosaur> right, but you still have %
16:35:11 <monochrom> It is the rationale behind edwardk using % for a different purpose in lens. "You already have / "
16:35:18 <ski> kenaryn : well, an implementation can provide type-specific operations (like e.g. division), without involving type classes like `Integral' (overloaded operation for integral division) or `Fractional' (overloaded operation for "exact" division (for lack of a better term) .. for floating-point types it isn't exact, but as near approximate to that as possible. it's still different from integral division, which
16:35:24 <ski> is specified in combination with remainder, a different thing)
16:35:54 <geekosaur> there are other instances of Num as well, if you import Data.Fixed for example
16:36:08 <geekosaur> @instances-importing Data.Fixed Num
16:36:10 <lambdabot> Double, Fixed a, Float, Int, Integer, Product a, Sum a, Word
16:36:44 <geekosaur> (the `a` in `Fixed a` indicates the fixed-point precision; a number of them come predefined, or you can roll your own)
16:37:06 <geekosaur> Deci, Cento, Milli, Micro, Nano, etc.
16:37:36 <ski> kenaryn : e.g. GHC (in `GHC.Float') defines `divideFloat :: Float -> Float -> Float' and `divideDouble :: Double -> Double -> Double' (in terms of primitive operations `divideFloat#' and `divideDouble#' for unboxed `Float#' and `Double#' types), and *then* makes `Float' and `Double' instances of `Fractional', by defining `(/)' for those types to call those previously defined operations
16:37:44 <dmj`> SridharRatnakuma: https://gist.github.com/9af59531f17150d23b6ecc870be6bc2c
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16:43:06 <ski> (`divideFloat#' and `divideDouble#', as well as the types `Float#' and `Double#' is not defined in the library (`base') source for GHC, but rather is given a primitive implementation, that uses machine-supported floating-point formats and instructions. there are other types handled primitively, like `Char',`Int',`Integer',`Word',`(->)' (function types),`Array',`IO',`IORef',`IOArray',.. as well)
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16:43:58 <ski> (hm, is there an architecture that GHC supports, that doesn't provide machine-supported floating-point ops, so that one has to rely on a software-implementation of them ?)
16:44:19 <ski> (iirc, that is the case for GCC)
16:44:36 <dolio> Seems doubtful.
16:45:09 <geekosaur> I think ghc supports soft-float ARM still
16:45:10 <ski> i guess, `-fvia-C', maybe
16:45:17 <geekosaur> via-C is long gone
16:46:04 <ski> i haven't looked at it in a long while, but it looks like the man page still lists it
16:46:18 <geekosaur> unregisterised is still there but not in released versions
16:46:36 <ski> mhm
16:47:34 <geekosaur> ah, seems that's where unregisterised mode is hiding these days
16:47:55 <geekosaur> per the manual (I'm looking at 9.2.2 since 9.2.3 never had one uploaded)
16:48:11 <ski> link ?
16:48:29 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.1/docs/html/users_guide/codegens.html?highlight=fvia%20c#c-code-generator-fvia-c
16:48:38 <geekosaur> oh, 9.2.1 even
16:48:50 <geekosaur> right, I was looking for the release notes last night
16:49:06 <geekosaur> mostly I have 8.10.7 up since that's what I still use locally
16:49:41 <geekosaur> while bgamari and I try to figure out how the heap gets smashed with xmonad under 9.x 😕
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16:55:31 <SridharRatnakuma> <dmj`> "Sridhar Ratnakumar: https://gist..." <- Thanks 🙂
16:55:31 <SridharRatnakuma> (Currently building the world because nixpkgs doesn't have 9.2 cached)
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17:00:14 <monochrom> Oh w00t soft float, haven't seen that for decades since Pentium :)
17:01:04 <geekosaur> and possibly not then since linux shipped with in-kernel fp emulation for a couple decades
17:01:15 <monochrom> Nice.
17:01:26 <monochrom> <3 abstractions
17:01:48 <dmj`> SridharRatnakuma: np
17:02:11 <geekosaur> someone probably still supports it as a loadable module probably, although iirc it was removed from the standard kernel some years back
17:02:29 <geekosaur> whoops, minus one of those "probably"s
17:03:30 <geekosaur> in particular I think debian still supports machines old enough to require either x87 or emulation thereof
17:03:42 <monochrom> It's OK, I know how to do join :: Prob (Prob a) -> Prob a :)
17:04:03 <geekosaur> wasn't that called Random? }😆
17:04:18 <geekosaur> hm, fancy smiley mode mishandled that
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17:10:37 ski . o O ( Commodore 64 has a somewhat weird (software-implemented) 5-bytes floating-point format, 8-bit exponent (incl. sign, excess-128), 32-bit mantissa (incl. sign, excl. leading `1' bit). <https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Floating_point_arithmetic> )
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17:12:47 <darkling> So did the Spectrum. Looks very similar to that (I'd have to look up the exact layout)
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17:30:29 <jchia[m]> Is there a way to get the pathname of the currently executing haskell file (run under ghc) or haskell executable file? Apparently, getProgName gives only the filename without the directory. I care only about Linux.
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17:31:22 <juri_> /proc/<pid>/?
17:31:27 <jchia[m]> There's a C function getProgArgv() called by getProgArg, but I don't think Haskell programs get to call RTS C functions directly.
17:31:53 <jchia[m]> that would involve parsing the ghc or haskell exe command-line, somewhat fragile.
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17:38:36 <hpc> there's https://hackage.haskell.org/package/system-argv0-0.1.1/docs/System-Argv0.html
17:39:50 <hpc> heh, there's also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.1.0/docs/System-Environment.html#v:getExecutablePath right underneath getProgName
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17:43:32 <sm> ❤️ c64 and spectrum tips showing up in #haskell 🚀
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17:53:42 <yax_> hi
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17:54:50 <jchia[m]> hpc: Those 2 ways work fine for a compiled executable, but unfortunately not when running a Haskell script under 'ghc'.
17:56:18 <hpc> aaaah, that makes more sense
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18:05:50 <jchia[m]> But I guess I can live with that. I'll just build the executable.
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18:08:15 <geekosaur> I don't understand "running a Haskell script under 'ghc'". wouldn't that be runghc?
18:08:36 <geekosaur> although it looks like runghc does have that problem, getExecutablePath returns the path to ghc itself
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18:11:04 <SridharRatnakuma> dmj`: maybe I should use this for <9.2 support, https://blog.csongor.co.uk/symbol-parsing-haskell/
18:11:06 <SridharRatnakuma> >>> :t listify @"Hello"
18:11:06 <SridharRatnakuma> listify @"Hello" :: Proxy '["H", "e", "l", "l", "o"]
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18:12:46 <dmj`> SridharRatnakuma: fancy
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18:20:38 <geekosaur> mm, I think the only way to get the source path is via template haskell. by the time it's executing bytecode, it has no idea where that bytecode came from
18:21:16 <geekosaur> it's executing from memory, and that memory might have come from ghc -e, template haskell, runghc, ghci prompt, etc.
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18:48:09 <yax__> what is a monad
18:48:56 <c_wraith> yax__: usually that question leads to unhelpful answers. what are you actually trying to learn?
18:49:05 <monochrom> Show me how you would answer "what is a numbers", and I might know how to answer "what is a monad?"
18:49:53 <hpc> perhaps start with "what is a functor"
18:50:07 <yax__> :DD
18:50:11 <monochrom> Hell, life and programming are full of those phenomena.
18:50:39 <hpc> you'll need to understand that first, and it's more intuitive if you're coming from another language
18:50:56 <monochrom> So I was teaching a C & Unix course and I discussed FILE* and I said "streams". A student asked "what is a stream?"
18:51:16 <monochrom> My answer: "How would you answer 'what are numbers?'"
18:51:35 <monochrom> The student was very smart. She realized "oh, it has to come down to that"
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18:52:48 <c_wraith> I asked a bunch of mathematicians how they'd define numbers once. The best answer they could come up with was "numbers are things that look and act like numbers"
18:52:52 <monochrom> A stream is whatever that you get from fopen, and that you can use fclose, fprintf, fwrite, etc. You have to go axiomatic aka API. There is no other "definition".
18:53:40 <geekosaur> that's because it's the best you can do in English. there's a better definition if you're willing to talk theory 🙂
18:53:59 <unit73e> hum but streams are easier to explain, no? because a stream is a sequence of readable chunks in a binary. or am I being too specific?
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18:54:13 <yax__> "think of it like a stream of data flowing from one source to a destination"
18:54:25 <c_wraith> I was willing to talk theory. Numbers are just too vague of a concept, when you look at all the things that get called "numbers".
18:54:34 <monochrom> With "readable" you are still not doing better than "supports such API".
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18:54:44 <unit73e> yeah I guess
18:55:15 <unit73e> comparing explaning numebers to monad is good imo though, because you can explain specific implementations of monads but explaining the general concept is harder
18:55:25 <ski> what does "readable" have to do with "streams" ?
18:55:52 <ski> (does "readable" mean that there's parsing involved somewhere ? or just that you can extract values ?)
18:55:59 <monochrom> The API has fread and getc and fscanf.
18:56:03 <yax__> monoid in the category of endofunctors 😪
18:56:31 <ski> the *monoidal* category of endofunctors
18:56:51 <ski> (but yes, that is a "HHOS" joke)
18:57:20 <unit73e> isn't it better to explain a monad as a design pattern the respective laws? that covers everything
18:57:20 <ski> yax__ : *are* you actually trying to do/learn something specific/concrete ?
18:57:28 <c_wraith> unlike some things, Monad actually has a precise definition. But learning it doesn't really help.
18:57:51 <ski> unit73e : yes. specifically to avoid certain kinds of boiler-plate code, i'd say
18:58:32 <unit73e> that does cover and explain why it exists in the first place
18:59:12 <yax__> yeah i would unironically love to know how an instance of applicative for (-> r) forms the s combinator
18:59:27 <c_wraith> yax__: the thing is, that's *really* hollow.
18:59:37 <c_wraith> yax__: the answer is "it does because it's the only thing it can do"
19:00:04 <monochrom> You can pretty much find out the only way (->) r can be an Applicative. Then compare the only solution to <*> with the S combinator.
19:00:08 <ski> yax__ : i find "Escaping Hell with Monads" by Philip Nilsson in 2017-05-08 at <https://philipnilsson.github.io/Badness10k/escaping-hell-with-monads/> a nice (non-tutorial) elaboration of the kind of (boiler-plate) problem that monads solve
19:00:24 <yax__> ski: thanks
19:01:14 <yax__> c_wraith: the way i internalized <*> is that its just a multiarg fmap
19:01:42 <monochrom> Actually I am beginning to feel that teaching Monad and then Applicative and Functor may work better.
19:01:59 <yax__> so (x <*> y <*> z) forming (x z) ( y z) feels weird to me
19:02:14 <c_wraith> note.. that's not what that does.
19:02:42 <ski> `(f <*> x <*> y) r' is `(f r) (x r) (y r)'
19:03:21 <monochrom> (x z) (y z) is (x <*> y) z
19:03:21 <ski> it "distributes" an "environment/context/config" (`r') to each "branch"
19:03:50 <yax__> monochrom: ok that makes way more sense, thanks
19:03:57 <yax__> i had a completely different and wrong idea
19:04:00 <yax__> thanks :D
19:05:00 <ski> (therefore `\r -> (..r..) (..r..) (..r..)' is `(\r -> ..r..) <*> (\r -> ..r..) <*> (\r -> ..r..)', pushing the lambdas inward. this is one part of the lambda calculus to SKI combinators translation, eliminating lambdas)
19:06:40 <dmj`> yax__: its a burrito https://emorehouse.wescreates.wesleyan.edu/silliness/burrito_monads.pdf
19:07:51 <monochrom> Applicative is curry burrito. currito.com
19:08:40 <ski> monochrom : why `Functor' after `Monad', though ?
19:08:50 <yax__> monads that let you extract the value out of the context should be tacos tho
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19:09:06 <ski> tacomonads ?
19:09:18 <unit73e> maybe tacos are monads
19:09:31 <yax__> no, burritos are
19:09:36 <yax__> !
19:09:42 <geekosaur> there are more tacos than burritos in the monad universe
19:09:46 <ski> @type Control.Comonad.extract
19:09:48 <lambdabot> Control.Comonad.Comonad w => w a -> a
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19:20:27 <Guest|17> I have ubuntu on Windows with x86 arch. I can not install ghc. I get ghc-pkg: Couldn't open database /home/abhisek/.ghcup/ghc/9.2.3/lib/ghc-9.2.3/package.conf.d
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19:22:46 <maerwald> Guest|17: WSL1?
19:22:59 <yax__> use ghcup?
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19:23:10 <Guest|17> I don't have WSL at all
19:23:13 <geekosaur> yax__, that is ghcup from the path
19:23:19 <yax__> mb
19:23:27 <maerwald> Guest|17: how are you running ubuntu inside windows?
19:23:53 <Guest|17> It's the app "Ubuntu on Windows"
19:24:05 <maerwald> that's WSL I think
19:24:12 <Guest|17> You can install this from windows store
19:24:16 <monochrom> Yes 100% WSL, just not sure 1 or 2.
19:24:22 <Guest|17> Command 'wsl' not found, but can be installed with:
19:24:23 <Guest|17> sudo apt install wsl
19:24:48 <geekosaur> wsl isn't a command, it's a subsystem
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19:24:54 <monochrom> I think my students report that it's 2 now.
19:25:00 <maerwald> Guest|17: wsl -l -v
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19:25:23 <Guest|17> It's not a command ?
19:25:28 <geekosaur> if you're running ubuntu on windows, it's either version 1 or 2 of the windows subsystem for linux
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19:25:49 <maerwald> google says it's a command
19:25:52 <Guest|17> OK you suggest to install the command and check the version ?
19:26:12 <maerwald> you need to run this in cmd or powershell
19:26:15 <maerwald> not in ubuntu
19:26:29 <maerwald> (as admin I think)
19:26:32 <yax__> what windows u have
19:26:41 <Guest|17> 10
19:26:56 <Guest|17>   NAME STATE VERSION
19:26:56 <Guest|17> * Ubuntu Running 1
19:27:00 <geekosaur> okay, I thought that was wslinfo or some such but I can't find it in logs
19:27:14 <geekosaur> sorry wsladmin
19:27:18 <geekosaur> but whatever
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19:27:51 <Guest|17> How do I update to 2 ?
19:28:04 <yax__> google
19:28:21 <monochrom> Do you need to?
19:28:33 <geekosaur> wsl1 has a number of bugs
19:29:02 <geekosaur> iirc even if it can find the package database it fails trying to lock it
19:29:13 <monochrom> Oh, that.
19:29:20 <yax__> wsl 1 was very arcane and mostly experimental
19:29:34 <yax__> methinks
19:29:53 <geekosaur> it was hacked together from the old windows posix subsystem, which was kinda deficient
19:31:49 <geekosaur> I still think it's a pity they gave up on it and used hyper-v; a proper linux subsystem for windows would have technically been *very* interesting
19:32:12 <yax__> linux gets EEE'd when
19:34:12 yax__ shivers
19:34:37 <Guest|17> It needs to update the kernel. Will check on tomorrow. Thank you guys for the help. appreciate it
19:34:51 <geekosaur> I think they would have had enough trouble keeping it up to date that it wouldn't have survived anyway
19:35:08 <geekosaur> but linux as a microkernel service…
19:35:10 <yax__> cant u just install ghc on windows
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19:35:42 <geekosaur> that's got its own annoyances since it needs to install msys2
19:36:06 <yax__> it auto does it for you
19:36:17 <yax__> source: me running ghc on windows
19:36:40 <geekosaur> does that bbut there have been version issues in the recent past
19:36:54 <yax__> yes
19:37:08 <yax__> source: me (reinstalled thrice)
19:37:23 <Guest|17> I haven't tried it. I thought maybe it's easier to install on linux.
19:37:43 <geekosaur> (also stack's handling of the whole msys2 thing is an utter hack, because it can't really do any better)
19:38:10 <yax__> hm ive always used cabal so idk anything about that
19:38:12 <geekosaur> well, withoutu having a separate msys2 for every ghc, which would be stupidly wasteful
19:39:08 <yax__> i only have 1 ghc
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19:41:14 <geekosaur> yeh, but stack installs one for every resolver in use
19:41:28 <geekosaur> and stack's still quite popular
19:41:32 <yax__> true
19:41:50 <yax__> i dont really use haskell for anything serious tho
19:42:11 <yax__> so i really dont deal with build systems and stuff
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19:52:17 <hololeap> I'm playing around with this API which is essentially: Semigroup s => class Foo s a where foo :: WriterT (Maybe s) m a
19:53:27 <hololeap> more specifically `WriterT (Maybe (Last s)) m a`
19:55:07 <hololeap> I'd like to ensure at compile time that the computation ends with `Just (Last s)`, possibly by creating a new GADT
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19:55:56 <hololeap> TaggedMaybe (j :: IsJust) a where TaggedJust :: a -> TaggedMaybe 'True a; TaggedNothing :: TaggedMaybe 'False a
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19:57:01 <hololeap> then I can make `foo`s signature `WriterT (TaggedMaybe 'True s) m a`
19:57:15 <ski> `IsJust' ?
19:57:26 <hololeap> type IsJust = Bool
19:58:16 <hololeap> the problem is, I don't see any way to make a sane Applicative instance for TaggedMaybe without putting it inside an existential wrapper, which causes all kinds of issues with the API
19:58:17 <ski> i don't see how you conveniently change the index `j'
19:58:24 <ski> like with `(>>=)'
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19:58:39 <ski> (or `(<*>)', if you prefer)
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19:59:08 <hololeap> yeah, that's the problem, and I was curious if anyone had figured out a clever way around this
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19:59:16 <ski> hololeap : i guess we're talking about the same problem
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20:00:31 <ski> there is `IxMonad' .. i wonder if there's anything for a monoid (type-level) index
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20:25:54 <SridharRatnakuma> dmj`: That package is slow as a tortoise. I ended up going GHC 9.2 route. https://stackoverflow.com/a/72764893/55246
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20:38:17 <{-d0t-}> ohai! I haven't used servant in a while now and I feel lost. How do I return a custom code for a request?
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21:22:44 <hololeap> is it possible to stick a value in a typeclass, like `class Foo a where fooName :: String`
21:23:12 <hololeap> or does it _have_ to reference a, e.g. `fooName :: proxy a -> String`
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21:24:38 <hololeap> I would like to avoid Proxy and just use TypeApplications, if possible, e.g. `fooName @MyFoo`
21:24:45 <ski> it doesn't have to, you can use `fooName @a', with `TypeApplications'
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21:25:33 <ski> well, you also need `AllowAmbiguousTypes'
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21:26:02 <ski> (also not all people are that happy with `TypeApplications')
21:26:03 <hololeap> ah, gotcha
21:26:28 <hololeap> why not?
21:27:02 <ski> (e.g. suddenly now it matters in which order your type variables are generalized .. even if you haven't written an explicit `forall'. i'd possibly like to see the extension restricted to the latter case, where there is an explicitly documented ordering)
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21:28:45 <monochrom> Provide two methods, one of them has the "p a" parameter, one doesn't. :)
21:29:06 <ski> (or make one of them a non-method, that calls the other)
21:29:53 <hololeap> fooNameForLusers (_ :: p a) = fooName @a
21:30:05 <ski> hololeap : in some cases, btw, it may be better to use a phantom type
21:30:44 <ski> fooName :: Foo a -- where `Foo a' just contains a `String'
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21:31:44 <hololeap> hm ok. could I define it as `type Foo a = String` ?
21:31:58 <ski> well, `newtype', rather
21:32:07 <ski> (otherwise you still need `AllowAmbiguousTypes')
21:32:13 <hololeap> I see
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21:32:34 <ski> @hoogle Tagged
21:32:35 <lambdabot> module Data.Tagged
21:32:35 <lambdabot> Data.Tagged newtype Tagged s b
21:32:35 <lambdabot> Data.Tagged Tagged :: b -> Tagged s b
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21:35:18 <hololeap> yeah, especially since I can `derive newtype IsString`
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21:49:44 <kenaryn> Please why does `:t (/) 1 2` returns `:: Fractional a => a` despite Chris Allen's book stating that type class Fractional is defaulting to Double type?
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21:50:35 <EvanR> defaulting happens if you ask it to evaluate (/) 1 2
21:50:38 <EvanR> in ghci
21:50:49 <kenaryn> I'm currently using the REPL.
21:50:50 <EvanR> in which case it has to pick something or else complain
21:51:02 <EvanR> evaluation and asking for the type are not the same thing
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21:51:40 <kenaryn> Allright, I didn't know about that. So there are some basic informations that are permanently unavailable for the user.
21:52:01 <EvanR> :t (/) 1 2
21:52:02 <lambdabot> Fractional a => a
21:52:06 <EvanR> > (/) 1 2
21:52:07 <lambdabot> 0.5
21:52:10 <monochrom> :t does not use the defaulting rules
21:52:35 <kenaryn> Understood, thanks gentlemen.
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21:54:57 <monochrom> You have to put code in a file, load that file, and ask about identifiers and/or expressions in that file, to see defaulting in action.
21:55:21 <monochrom> which is different from ":type <one-shot expression>"
21:55:45 <monochrom> For example if your file has "x = 1", then :type x will correct say Integer.
21:55:53 <dolio> @type 1/2
21:55:54 <lambdabot> Fractional a => a
21:55:57 <dolio> @type +d 1/2
21:55:59 <lambdabot> Double
21:56:10 <dolio> Read the help. :þ
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21:58:02 <monochrom> For example if your file has "main = print 1", then there is a command for asking for the type of the "1" on that line of code specifically (you have to enter the line number and column number, or let an editor do it for you), and it will correctly say "that's Integer".
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21:58:16 <monochrom> But these do not apply to a pedestrian ":type 1".
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21:59:38 <monochrom> Ugh why am I using 1 instead of 0? :)
21:59:48 <dolio> @type +d 0
21:59:50 <lambdabot> Integer
22:00:12 <monochrom> Oh haha I forgot that :type has +d
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22:01:18 <monochrom> Yeah I can stand behind "read and memorize the help messages and the user guide. the exam is tomorrow"
22:01:33 <pavonia> What does +d do?
22:01:33 <EvanR> the integers start at 1 today
22:01:37 <kenaryn> I added `n = (/) 1 2` and `m = 1` in a file, loaded it and asked for the type with `:t n` and `:t m` but it still returns `Fractional` and `Num` respectively, instead of `Double` and `Integer`.
22:01:39 <dolio> +d does defaulting.
22:01:41 <EvanR> 1, 0, 2, 3, ...
22:01:56 <monochrom> People don't read manuals often enough.
22:02:06 <pavonia> @type +d 0.123
22:02:07 <lambdabot> Double
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22:02:58 <kenaryn> @type +d 1 % 3
22:02:59 <EvanR> kenaryn, after you figure out how to make it show the defaulted type (+d above), you should take away that your unannotated numerals really do have that generalized Fractional type
22:03:00 <lambdabot> Ratio Integer
22:03:09 <dolio> I'm surprised lambdabot supports it, to be honest.
22:03:20 <monochrom> me too
22:03:22 <EvanR> :t (%)
22:03:23 <lambdabot> Integral a => a -> a -> Ratio a
22:03:33 <monochrom> Where is yahb?
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22:06:58 <geekosaur> it's yahb2 now
22:07:05 <geekosaur> mniip and their bot disappeared
22:07:36 <EvanR> yayahb
22:07:39 <monochrom> But I can't find yahb2 either.
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22:09:08 <geekosaur> mm, where'd it go. tomsmeding?
22:09:28 <geekosaur> [24 20:46:00] * yahb2 has quit (*.net *.split)
22:10:01 <geekosaur> took the weekend off I guess
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22:10:34 <monochrom> 10 years from now we will lose everything and have to start over when tomsmeding finishes his PhD and gets a real job. :)
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22:14:59 <ski> @where PLFA
22:14:59 <lambdabot> "Programming Language Foundations in Agda" (formal methods book) by Wen Kokke,Philip Wadler in 2018-(01-06) at <https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/agda.html>,<https://plfa.github.io/>
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22:34:22 <kenaryn> F* is a formal proof programming language from Microsoft/INRIA venture that tries to compete with Adga. It has of course less traction than Agda but it's more a language than an proof-assistant; it could be the real deal once it superseeds Coq.
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22:37:20 ski . o O ( <https://fstar-lang.org>,<https://fstar-lang.org/tutorial/> )
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23:50:58 <Axman6> o/
23:57:10 <geekosaur[m]> o/
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All times are in UTC on 2022-06-26.