Logs on 2022-06-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:00:29 | <geekosaur> | you don't have to save/restore the status area, it stays put |
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| 00:00:39 | <geekosaur> | ypou just define the scrolling area to not include it |
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| 00:01:09 | <geekosaur> | then when you scroll stuff off the screen, your status area stays put and only the scrolling region enters the terminal scrollback |
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| 00:01:43 | <geekosaur> | the save/restore I mentioned is just so you don't have to figure out where the cursor is before switching over to the status area if you need to update that |
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| 00:02:13 | <geekosaur> | <ESC>7 will remember the cursor position and attributes etc., and <ESC>8 will restore them after you're done |
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| 00:11:51 | <maralorn> | Huh, crazy. |
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| 00:13:28 | <maralorn> | Can you tell if the commands I wanna issue are available from the ansi-terminal package? Alternatively can you recommend some docs on this? Your advice is not completely actionable for me right now.^^ |
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| 00:16:14 | <geekosaur> | I was reading from the VT102 manual when I wrote that, to make sure my memory was correct. I don't know off the top of my head if ansi-terminal directly supports either scroll region or save/restore cursor |
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| 00:16:25 | <geekosaur> | (I'd be surprised if it didn't suppot scroll region though) |
| 00:16:40 | geekosaur | eyes matrix gateway |
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| 00:17:16 | <EvanR> | matrix is the future |
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| 00:17:24 | <EvanR> | the future is intermittent |
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| 00:20:17 | <geekosaur> | hm, it supports save/restore but I don't see anything for scroll region |
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| 00:25:39 | <sm> | can https://hackage.haskell.org/package/concurrent-output work here ? |
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| 00:26:38 | <sm> | if not, there's https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ansi-terminal-game plus implementing your own scroll buffer |
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| 00:29:02 | <geekosaur> | interesting that my matrix account is receiving but neither visible here nor able to send |
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| 00:30:35 | <geekosaur> | oh, no, only from sm who's still on both. pfeh |
| 00:31:12 | <maralorn> | sm: Seeing that my program already works and I am just looking for potential performance improvements I don‘t think that implementing my own scrollbuffer is worth it. |
| 00:31:32 | geekosaur | is not above simply outputting escape sequences |
| 00:31:38 | <sm> | ah, carry on then |
| 00:31:56 | <geekosaur> | in fact my test program to verify the scroll lregion didn't interfere with backscroll did just that |
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| 00:34:11 | <geekosaur> | \x1b[1;16r\x1b\&7\x1b[18;18H--- STATUS REGION ---\x1b\&8 then I had it do ls -l /usr/bin |
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| 00:34:39 | <geekosaur> | the status region stayed put, the ls scrolled in the right area and was correctly caught in scrollback |
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| 00:37:46 | <maralorn> | sm: But the ConsoleRegion stuff looks promising. |
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| 01:47:15 | <maralorn> | maerwald: I remember you told me something about a terminal printing library that you had a bad experience with. Was that https://hackage.haskell.org/package/concurrent-output ? |
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| 02:03:21 | <maralorn> | Oh, no! In the end concurrent-output also clears the complete status region, writes the log and writes the status region again. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/concurrent-output-1.10.16/docs/src/System.Console.Regions.html#inAreaAbove |
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| 02:04:53 | <maralorn> | It only does smart things to avoid redraws when we don‘t print new log lines. But it also looks like a lot of overhead to me, so not sure if it’s worth it. |
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| 03:48:10 | <[Leary]> | @tell fizbin When it says "applicative functors", it's loosely referring to the arbitrary applicative functor parameter `f`. It should perhaps just be "A monoid on @f@." The key detail is that parametricity in `a` forces the monoid to be entirely on the structure of `f`, independent of `a`. This implies nice properties like `fmap g` distributing over `<|>`. And imo, if there's another sane choice of Monoid for `f a`, it shouldn't be the |
| 03:48:10 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 03:48:10 | <[Leary]> | same as the Alternative on `f`; that's just waste in redundancy. |
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| 03:56:17 | <[Leary]> | It's also worth noting that there's already a monoid on `f`, as implied by it having Applicative, so Alternative is indeed "an alternative monoid on f". |
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| 03:57:05 | <[Leary]> | Though I don't think that's where the name comes from. |
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| 08:21:39 | <gensyst> | After I write putStr something is there a way to "go back" and find out the last couple of characters that were output in the past? |
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| 08:27:39 | <lortabac> | gensyst: no, you have to implement your own alternative IO with this capability |
| 08:27:51 | <sm> | I don't think so gensyst , you'd have to keep that history yourself |
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| 08:57:59 | <gensyst> | thanks mates |
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| 09:20:06 | <`2jt> | Hi, I'm constructing aeson object with `object` and every pair value is a string. However, I must wrap each of it into ("key" .= ("some value" :: T.Text)). Is there a way to make the compiler make this decision automatically? |
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| 09:31:05 | <aforemny> | `2jt: as the second argument of (.=) is a constrained type variable, i don't think it is possible. you have to specify its type, as `"some value"` can be of any type that implements the `IsString` type class |
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| 09:31:53 | <lyxia> | you could define a specialized version of it |
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| 09:32:17 | <aforemny> | `2jt: you can probably define a helper function `stringField :: KeyValue kv => Key -> T.Text -> kv` or something |
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| 09:36:13 | <`2jt> | thank you guys |
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| 09:56:53 | <carbolymer> | what was the name of `~` ? type equality? |
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| 10:03:15 | <pavonia> | carbolymer: Yes |
| 10:03:41 | <carbolymer> | pavonia: where can I read more on that? I don't know when I need type equality |
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| 10:05:05 | <pavonia> | When you want to give a hint to the compiler where types are/should be equal |
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| 10:07:06 | <pavonia> | It's usually necessary with type families of the form `Fam a ~ b` to indicate that the result of applying Fam to a should result in b |
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| 10:08:05 | <carbolymer> | and why not `Fam b => b` ? |
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| 10:09:07 | <pavonia> | I guess that would only work if Fam b would result in a type constraint again |
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| 10:09:22 | <pavonia> | or would be a type class in the first place |
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| 10:14:19 | <pavonia> | carbolymer: e.g. consider `foo :: Fam a ~ Int => a -> Int`. We don't care what `a` is in this case, but we make sure that the result of `a` applied to type family `Fam` results in an Int |
| 10:14:49 | <carbolymer> | oooh |
| 10:14:54 | <carbolymer> | now it's clear |
| 10:15:00 | <carbolymer> | pavonia: thanks |
| 10:15:07 | <pavonia> | No problem |
| 10:15:19 | <jackdk> | `2jt: turn off `{-# LANGUAGE OverloadedStrings #-}` (frustrating, but it means that the sting literal must be `[Char]` and then instance selection becomes unambiguous) or (the idiom I usually use `foo .= String "bar"` (as the data constructor `String :: Text -> Value` gives GHC enough info to solve) |
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| 10:19:57 | <aforemny> | jackdk: i don't see how turning off overloaded strings helps because there is no `ToJson String` instance, and `String "bar"` should work in presence of overloaded strings as well |
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| 10:22:29 | <aforemny> | jackdk: the `String : Text -> Value` is a good point though! one might also use `T.pack : String -> Text` |
| 10:23:39 | <jackdk> | aforemny: Via `instance ToJSON Char` and `instance ToJSON a => ToJSON [a]`; note that `class ToJSON` has a `toJSONList :: [a] -> Value` method |
| 10:23:53 | <jackdk> | aforemny: You are correct that the `String` trick does not require disabling `-XOverloadedStrings` |
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| 10:24:07 | <jackdk> | % toJSON "Hello" |
| 10:24:07 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:60:1: error: ; Variable not in scope: toJSON :: [Char] -> t |
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| 10:24:13 | <jackdk> | % :m + Data.Aeson |
| 10:24:13 | <yahb2> | <no location info>: error: ; Could not find module ‘Data.Aeson’ ; Perhaps you meant Data.Version (from base-4.14.3.0) |
| 10:24:18 | <jackdk> | ah well |
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| 10:24:58 | <jackdk> | aforemny: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cw0O2Lkw/toJSON-string.txt |
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| 10:31:17 | <aforemny> | jackdk: oh, then it does make sense to drop overloaded strings. my bad! i cannot find the `ToJSON String` instance and thought it would not follow from `ToJSON Char` and `ToJSON a => ToJSON [a]`.. |
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| 10:32:11 | <jackdk> | Yeah I could be wrong that it doesn't need both instances; it might just be using `toJSONList @Char` |
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| 10:50:53 | <dminuoso> | Disabling aeson instances via cabal flags. Is this a good idea? |
| 10:51:30 | <dminuoso> | That is, they would be enabled by default, but in case you dont want to drag in aeson, you could disable it via a flag. While it cant be placed in the .cabal file, at least individual projects can reduce dependency footprint. |
| 10:51:47 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: I know you have some strong feelings about flags, how about this usage? |
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| 11:32:12 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: disabling API via flags doesn't break packages at least |
| 11:32:32 | <maerwald[m]> | If the default is really enabled |
| 11:35:31 | <maerwald[m]> | You'd still have to make sure your package compiles with the default flags if it's. The only pitfall could be imports I think |
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| 11:36:02 | <maerwald[m]> | When another package/import provides the disabled API |
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| 12:49:28 | <carbolymer> | Did you guys have any weird experiences with CMS GC (-xn) on GHC 8? It seems whenever I turn it on, our E2E tests start to failing randomly (and very rarely) in CI with "connection refused" errors (the server is in Haskell). |
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| 14:23:54 | <DGMrKong> | Did I accidentally fill this chat with IRC error messages all night? I just got back and my console is filled with them :( |
| 14:24:46 | <geekosaur> | no more than anyone else, from my backscroll |
| 14:24:53 | <merijn> | If you had someone would've probably kicked or quited you :p |
| 14:24:58 | <merijn> | *quieted |
| 14:25:46 | <DGMrKong> | yea, I guess they were client side errors. I have one every few seconds for the past 12 hours |
| 14:26:04 | <DGMrKong> | I should probably dc next time lol |
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| 14:27:03 | <geekosaur> | we have a log you can consult if you want to see what's been going on (check the /topic) |
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| 18:22:03 | <Boarders__> | could someone remind me how you pass a custom type of a library in haskell? |
| 18:22:26 | <Boarders__> | e.g. the ordered-keymap in aeson (I don't need this flag specifically, just want to know how you do it) |
| 18:23:41 | <[exa]> | "how you pass a custom type of a library" ... to where do you want to pass it? |
| 18:24:08 | <Boarders__> | sorry that was meant to read flag |
| 18:24:21 | <merijn> | Boarders__: from where? |
| 18:24:38 | <merijn> | Boarders__: Should just be -fflagname on the commandline |
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| 18:25:21 | <[exa]> | ah a flag, yes |
| 18:25:23 | <Boarders__> | so I could put -fordered-keymap in ghc-options in cabal? |
| 18:25:54 | <geekosaur> | it's not a ghc option, it's a Cabal option. stack and cabal have slightly different ways of doing it |
| 18:26:11 | <[exa]> | you may like constraints: as in https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23523869/is-there-any-way-to-define-flags-for-cabal-dependencies/49808007#49808007 |
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| 18:27:16 | <Boarders__> | what is the cabal way of doing it? |
| 18:28:47 | <geekosaur> | the link [exa] gave you shows both stack and cabal ways |
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| 18:29:44 | <[exa]> | btw the answer "you cannot do this with cabal" is probably no longer valid there |
| 18:30:00 | <geekosaur> | it was once true, but then the cabal.project way was added |
| 18:30:16 | <geekosaur> | sadly a bunch of stackers think cabal's still on 1.24 |
| 18:30:34 | <[exa]> | let's add a comment :] |
| 18:31:04 | <geekosaur> | one of the answres above that one already says this (that it used to be true but then cabal.project way was added) |
| 18:31:24 | <geekosaur> | possibly it should be downvoted though now that it's false |
| 18:31:45 | <[exa]> | well I can edit it |
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| 18:32:09 | <[exa]> | ah no, but I can ask people to edit :] |
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| 18:34:25 | <Boarders__> | thanks for the help all |
| 18:35:15 | <[exa]> | yw :] |
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| 18:42:18 | <shiraeeshi[m]> | there is an exercise about red-black trees that I don't understand |
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| 18:42:44 | <shiraeeshi[m]> | it's an exercise 3.10 (b) from "Purely functional data structures" |
| 18:43:24 | <shiraeeshi[m]> | (a) is about splitting the balance function to two: lbalance and rbalance |
| 18:43:57 | <shiraeeshi[m]> | (b) says: |
| 18:44:34 | <shiraeeshi[m]> | Extending the same logic one step further, one of the remaining tests on the grandchildren is also unnecessary. Rewrite "ins" so that it never tests the color of nodes not on the search path. |
| 18:45:18 | <shiraeeshi[m]> | here is a source code of RedBlackSet: https://imgur.com/a/oIlSxgf |
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| 18:46:25 | <shiraeeshi[m]> | I can't find the unnecessary test, where is it? |
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| 20:01:37 | × | Hash quits (~Hash@tunnel686959-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net) (*.net *.split) |
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| 20:01:37 | × | dispater quits (~dispater@user/brprice) (*.net *.split) |
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| 20:01:37 | × | wz1000 quits (~zubin@static.11.113.47.78.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 20:01:37 | × | raym quits (~raym@user/raym) (*.net *.split) |
| 20:01:37 | × | kjak quits (~kjak@pool-108-31-68-111.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 20:01:37 | × | marinelli[m] quits (~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8) (*.net *.split) |
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| 20:01:37 | × | kosmikus[m] quits (~andresloe@2001:470:69fc:105::95d) (*.net *.split) |
| 20:01:37 | × | Etxeberrialex[m] quits (~etxeberri@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5ae6) (*.net *.split) |
| 20:01:37 | × | jchia[m] quits (~jchiamatr@2001:470:69fc:105::c50b) (*.net *.split) |
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| 20:01:37 | × | integral quits (sid296274@user/integral) (*.net *.split) |
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| 20:01:37 | × | earthy quits (~arthurvl@2a02-a469-f5e2-1-ba27-ebff-fea0-40b0.fixed6.kpn.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 20:01:37 | × | ddb quits (~ddb@ipv6two.tilde.club) (*.net *.split) |
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| 20:01:37 | × | acarrico quits (~acarrico@dhcp-68-142-48-19.greenmountainaccess.net) (*.net *.split) |
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| 20:33:40 | <Haskelytic> | fellas i'm wondering how you guys ensure typeclass laws are satisfied for your types? |
| 20:33:52 | <Haskelytic> | do you write tests? |
| 20:33:59 | <Haskelytic> | do you sit down and prove it by hand |
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| 20:34:38 | <Rembane> | I write them and hope for the best. |
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| 20:35:40 | <monochrom> | I proved simple ones by hand. |
| 20:36:00 | <Haskelytic> | Rembane: Feels-based programming needs to be a thing :) |
| 20:36:15 | <Haskelytic> | @monoch |
| 20:36:15 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 20:36:32 | <Haskelytic> | monochrom: For the non-trivial ones? |
| 20:36:43 | <maerwald> | Haskelytic https://hackage.haskell.org/package/checkers |
| 20:37:10 | <Rembane> | Haskelytic: Absolutely! :) |
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| 20:38:38 | <monochrom> | Some of the non-trivial ones are compositions of simple ones, and the compositions preserve laws. |
| 20:38:45 | <Haskelytic> | Rembane: I just googled "feels based programming" and found this https://github.com/kulics-works/feel |
| 20:39:01 | <Rembane> | Haskelytic: It's the future! :) |
| 20:39:10 | <Haskelytic> | maerwald: Oh damn I hadn't thought of checking lol...thanks! |
| 20:39:16 | <monochrom> | Some others are complicated encodings of trival ones. |
| 20:40:03 | <Haskelytic> | monochrom: Nice I forgot I could just build on top of simpler ones |
| 20:40:37 | <Haskelytic> | Rembane: Maybe someone should write a manifesto ;) |
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| 20:42:39 | <Rembane> | Haskelytic: I think that's taking it too far, I prefer to code in the shadows. :) |
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| 20:42:58 | <Rembane> | Haskelytic: BTW, if you want to have much fun you can write QuickCheck properties that check that your instances are lawful. |
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| 20:45:22 | <Haskelytic> | Rembane: I'm gonna do that but I'm having trouble understanding how quickcheck does function arbitraries |
| 20:45:31 | <Haskelytic> | :/ |
| 20:45:49 | <Haskelytic> | One at a time I suppose |
| 20:46:09 | <Rembane> | Haskelytic: Generating functions is always a bit messy. |
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| 20:49:46 | <Haskelytic> | Yeah if only computation was simple |
| 20:50:47 | <Haskelytic> | This little bit of nugget in the quickcheck paper was very interesting for a noob like me |
| 20:51:44 | <Haskelytic> | they were like, we want Gen (a->b) which is Int -> Rand -> a -> b and rearrange "parameters" to get a -> Int -> Rand -> b = a -> Gen b |
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| 20:52:14 | <Haskelytic> | thinking with types feels like the magic of algebra all over again |
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| 20:52:34 | <Haskelytic> | you just do these formal manipulations and voila, you're closer to a solution to your problem |
| 20:52:54 | <Haskelytic> | no need for brain cells :) |
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| 20:53:15 | <monochrom> | This is why I am not fond of "understand and have intuition before doing it formally" |
| 20:53:20 | <mrianbloom> | Is there a large project that uses GADTs for an expression language? |
| 20:53:45 | <monochrom> | Unpopular opinion: Sometimes you do it formally first and then you see new understanding and intuition. |
| 20:53:55 | <Rembane> | monochrom: I thought you did algebra instead. |
| 20:53:58 | <arj0019> | on that topic, are there any good resources that demonstrate how to build complex type systems in Haskell? I find myself attempting to implement OOP features without realizing it. |
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| 20:55:23 | <arj0019> | I did find a really good video on applying DSL for a trading card game. Still looking for more resources like that. |
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| 20:56:18 | <yin> | cabal init doesnt let me create a project if one with the same name already exists in hackage? |
| 20:56:19 | <EvanR> | for a lot of common go-to "OOP features" there are good non-OOP functional replacements |
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| 20:56:49 | <EvanR> | for example implementation inheritance => first class functions or just, use functions |
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| 20:58:39 | <arj0019> | EvanR: I completely agree. My trouble is not recognizing that some aspects of my domain concept are OO in nature. |
| 20:59:39 | <monochrom> | Easy translation between OO and FP: x.f <-> f x |
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| 20:59:47 | <arj0019> | EvanR: I have not been able to find a good resource documenting the design process of a complex functional type system and DSL. |
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| 21:01:01 | <EvanR> | for a model complex functional type system which can be used with DSLs, as a starting point, there's simply typed lambda calculus xD |
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| 21:03:14 | <arj0019> | for example, I have wanted to create the following: an interface `factor' that requires implementation of `rank' and `rate' that both operate on a list of datas |
| 21:03:56 | <arj0019> | each factor would implement `rate' and `rank' differently, and ideally I could combine factors with +, -, / to make a new factor |
| 21:04:16 | <arj0019> | I have no idea how to do this yet tho. It kinda smells like a monoid |
| 21:04:40 | <monochrom> | A field has + - / |
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| 21:05:08 | <arj0019> | i will add field to my research list |
| 21:05:24 | <arj0019> | this is `Algebra/Field'? |
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| 21:05:28 | <monochrom> | yes |
| 21:05:28 | <arj0019> | this is `Algebra.Field'? |
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| 21:06:45 | <monochrom> | We need not be formal about whether "Algebra/Field" or "Algebra.Field" is better. |
| 21:06:49 | <EvanR> | to implement the (not really OO) concept of a uniform interface that has many implementations, first try making a record of functions |
| 21:07:24 | <EvanR> | rather a record type corresponding to the interface, doesn't have to have all functions in it |
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| 21:08:17 | <arj0019> | EvanR: I understand record syntax and its implementation, but I do not see why to implement it for this purpose |
| 21:08:36 | <EvanR> | e.g. a field over a could have a zero::a, one::a, add::a -> a -> a, times::a -> a -> a, inverse :: a -> a |
| 21:08:37 | <monochrom> | An object is a record of functions. |
| 21:08:43 | Polo | is now known as money |
| 21:08:55 | <EvanR> | ok, too many `a's |
| 21:09:36 | <monochrom> | BTW GHC also translates "Ord a => ..." to "Record of Ord functions -> ..." too. |
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| 21:10:08 | <monochrom> | So now both Java's notion of "interface" and Haskell's notion of "interface" are records of functions. |
| 21:10:28 | <monochrom> | There is some poetic justice in that. |
| 21:10:49 | <EvanR> | haskell is java from an alternate 90s timeline |
| 21:11:05 | <Rembane> | There are some examples on typeclasses vs record of functions here: https://www.haskellforall.com/2012/05/scrap-your-type-classes.html |
| 21:11:12 | <monochrom> | public class Ord where :) |
| 21:11:20 | <Rembane> | And some strong opinions too |
| 21:11:32 | <arj0019> | EvanR: how does this differ from using `instance'. IMO, `instance' may be better as it allows me to create some arbitrary thing and then just add on `rate' and `rank' |
| 21:11:46 | <EvanR> | it's similar but different, probably that link says more |
| 21:12:02 | <EvanR> | another good one is "type classes vs the world" (video) |
| 21:12:13 | <arj0019> | thank you for the refrences |
| 21:12:44 | <arj0019> | to be clear, you dont think my idea of implementing `instance' is crazy OO in this case? |
| 21:12:56 | <monochrom> | But Haskell classes adds a coherence benefit that manually passing around records doesn't have. |
| 21:13:05 | <Rembane> | arj0019: It is. Try not to. |
| 21:13:16 | <EvanR> | that's basically the difference, global coherence |
| 21:13:46 | <Rembane> | I wonder if the discussion on initial encoding vs final encoding would be enlightening or just confusing |
| 21:14:16 | <dolio> | That's not going to be helpful. |
| 21:14:28 | <monochrom> | I realized it when I taught students how do you express the type of a sorting function most polymorphically. It can't be "[a] -> [a]" but it can't be "[Int] -> [Int]" either. |
| 21:14:41 | <arj0019> | Rembane: can you expand on why you feel that way about my implementation of `instance', but potentially not the same for `EQ' or `Show'? |
| 21:15:12 | <monochrom> | I spontaneously came up with "like C's qsort but safer, I can always do (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]" |
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| 21:15:31 | <monochrom> | Then the next thought was "oh wait so why do we need Ord again?" |
| 21:15:59 | <monochrom> | "Ah imagine I call BST insert then BST lookup but I give them different comparators by mistake" |
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| 21:17:24 | <Rembane> | arj0019: Because Eq and Show are already there, they won't steer your thinking too much. But if you remove the typeclass tool from your toolbox until you've explored all the other tools it won't work as a shortcut to OO concepts. |
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| 21:21:16 | <arj0019> | Rembane: it is interesting that there is resistance to using `instance' when that is how you implement things like `EQ', `Show', or even something big like `Functor'. But like you said, those types already exist |
| 21:21:31 | <arj0019> | this will require a major rethink :( |
| 21:21:39 | <dolio> | There isn't resistance to using type classes. |
| 21:21:56 | <dolio> | There is resistance to just directly translating OO design into type classes. |
| 21:22:24 | <monochrom> | What is "`instance'"? |
| 21:22:43 | <dolio> | If you are just coming from OO programming, and prone to thinking that way, and just translate that into type classes, you will be developing habits that are considered bad. |
| 21:23:19 | <monochrom> | Also, Functor is not big, it has just one method. |
| 21:23:26 | <Rembane> | arj0019: OTOH, if you need polymorphism, typeclasses might be useful, but don't use them as the everything-looks-like-a-nail-hammer |
| 21:24:04 | <dolio> | Eq/Ord is actually rather unlike the equivalent OO design. |
| 21:24:05 | <monochrom> | "when all you have is acetone, everything looks like nail polish" :) |
| 21:24:26 | <Rembane> | Shiny! :D |
| 21:24:44 | <monochrom> | Now, "when all you have is superglue..." >:) |
| 21:24:49 | <dolio> | That is, it is like passing around a comparator object, not like having your types implement an 'Equatable' interface or something. |
| 21:26:02 | money | is now known as polo |
| 21:27:09 | <arj0019> | dolio: I may not have been clear on my intentions. I want to create a `factor' (that is potentially a combination of `factor's) that will either `rate' or `rank' a list of datas |
| 21:27:41 | <arj0019> | or maybe it is better to say that the factor provides the functions used for rating and ranking |
| 21:27:52 | <sclv> | yin: correct |
| 21:28:16 | <arj0019> | either way, I think that I see the bad things more clearly now |
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| 21:29:02 | <dolio> | To be honest, I don't find that description clear. :) |
| 21:29:21 | <geekosaur> | another useful thing to consider with respect to typeclasses is that it's strongly preferred that they have testable laws (typically they can't be part of the typeclass though). if you can't phrase reasonable laws for your typeclass, there's a decent chance that a typeclass is the wrong tool |
| 21:29:49 | <dolio> | But if you have learned something from the conversation, that's good. :) |
| 21:29:59 | <Rembane> | arj0019: I think you can have a great start by writing functions that do that and if you need to use those functions for more than one type you could put them in a typeclass. I think it's a good idea to keep the code as simple as possible for as long as possible. |
| 21:30:31 | <geekosaur> | Functor, for example, has laws such that there's either zero or one valid Functor for any type. |
| 21:30:49 | <geekosaur> | (also, if it's not keyed off a type, a typeclass isn't the right tool) |
| 21:31:48 | <dolio> | Yeah, that's also a good point. Preemptively overloading everything is not necessarily the right strategy. |
| 21:32:02 | <monochrom> | lambdabot has my quote about premature generalization, yeah |
| 21:33:13 | <arj0019> | my over all goal: given a list of datas, run some function that will return the datas ordered by best to worst (rate is the same, but has a non-constant scale for weighting). I would also like to create a way to combine multiple rate (or rank) functions to build a more complex analysis |
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| 21:34:07 | <geekosaur> | that doesn't sound like a typeclass, then, since your combined functions would use the same types as the uncombined ones. I'd go with record-of-functions and specify a way to compose them |
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| 21:34:52 | <arj0019> | geekosaur: your not the only one to reccomend that, so I will definately research it. |
| 21:35:46 | <yin> | sclv: has this always been the case or have i just been lucky? |
| 21:36:03 | <sclv> | been the case for a very long time |
| 21:36:11 | <arj0019> | Anyways, I don't want to take over the chat for too long so i am going to go do some research on your suggestions. ty |
| 21:36:25 | <geekosaur> | that's what the chat is here for 🙂 |
| 21:37:08 | <geekosaur> | very long discussions may occasionally be redirected to e.g. #haskell-in-depth, if there's a lot of other stuff going on at the same time |
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| 22:15:02 | <Psybur> | How would you create a framework that expresses your business logic in pure code, possibly with its own dialect of SQL or SQL like DSL, and then implement each piece in multiple backends, that each have their own objects (DataFrames etc) and dialect of SQL? |
| 22:16:28 | <ARJ0019> | I have found this talk to be useful and relevant to the problem you are trying to solve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US8QG9I1XW0 |
| 22:16:51 | <ARJ0019> | I would try to explain it myself, but I am still new to haskell |
| 22:17:16 | <ARJ0019> | the talk is not haskell specific, but it covers the concepts |
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| 22:18:30 | <Psybur> | thanks, watching |
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| 22:56:56 | <EvanR> | my bumbling path: OO concepts => forget OO concepts => learn algebraic concepts => go back and see what OO could look like algebraically => dust off the aftermath and see if anything useful remains of OO that's not just algebra |
| 22:58:40 | <EvanR> | shoot that convo is way in the past |
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| 23:00:11 | <hpc> | heh, i had the advantage of not learning the OO concepts "properly" |
| 23:01:31 | <hpc> | whenever i look at OOP design patterns now, i just keep thinking "that's just a function" about one pattern, and "that's just a function" about a completely different pattern |
| 23:02:56 | <EvanR> | "that would be just a function if we even had functions here" |
| 23:03:26 | <EvanR> | "if only I had a function" |
| 23:03:53 | <dsal> | I learned OO from "Object Oriented Software Construction" (Eiffel) and then tried to do stuff in Java which was philosophically completely opposite. |
| 23:04:35 | <dsal> | IN OOSC, you'd have methods that either let you get information from an object or altered the object, but never both. In java, you just changed all the things all the time. |
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| 23:08:56 | <EvanR> | sounds great on paper, then you get hit with stuff like... check if the file exists, if so, open it! (and before you manage to open it, the file is moved by someone else) |
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| 23:10:17 | <dsal> | Sure, that's why you skip the first part. |
| 23:11:21 | <EvanR> | so "alter the object" could return information! |
| 23:12:59 | <EvanR> | I wonder what other arbitrary principles like those in eiffel there are |
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| 23:13:48 | <EvanR> | weird stuff like all expressions are referentially transparent |
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| 23:24:40 | <yin> | what does this mean?: ghc: can't find a package database at /home/yin/seis/dist-newstyle/packagedb/ghc-8.10.7 |
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| 23:27:03 | <yin> | hm... nvm i think i get what i did wrong |
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| 23:33:08 | <dsal> | "alter the object" changes the state. You ask for the state separately. It's a similar concept to returning a record with a bunch of fields. |
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