Logs on 2022-06-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:20:24 | <Psybur> | ARJ0019, heh so that video just boils down to "Just write pure functions bro" >.> |
| 00:23:51 | <Axman6> | I shared this yesterday, which basically boils down to "Use types and make the immutable" https://roman.pt/posts/dont-let-dicts-spoil-your-code/ |
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| 05:16:22 | <slack1256> | I have been reading the literature on fusion/deforestation optimization passes. Most of the papers work on a non-strict setting, but what I have seen seems valid for a pure strict language. Is my intuition right? |
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| 05:53:54 | <Axman6> | I think a lot of it boild down to the case of known case optimisation - inspecting a value that was just created in a case statement means you can inline the creating and the inspection and eliminate allocating the intermediate value all together |
| 05:54:41 | <Axman6> | and I can't off the top of my head think of any reason why strictness would play a role there, unless the fileds in the data were strict, and even then you'd just need to inset the appropriate `seq`s |
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| 06:01:21 | <mon_aaraj> | what do you guys think about arrows? and furthermore, arrowized functional reactive programming? |
| 06:01:41 | <mon_aaraj> | from what i've seen, a lot of people seem to think that they're rather awkward, most notably the creator of reactive bananas |
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| 06:02:14 | <mon_aaraj> | by "they", i specifically mean arrows |
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| 06:10:54 | <Franciman> | interesting question. mon_aaraj apparently this paper http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psznhn/Publications/afp2002.pdf says that the arrow based programming allows to avoid some space and time leaks |
| 06:12:54 | <mon_aaraj> | yep, i know. that's generally why it's used, and it's a common abstraction that's more useful than monads in these scenarios |
| 06:13:03 | <mon_aaraj> | i have read that paper already |
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| 06:13:28 | <mon_aaraj> | i guess i am just wondering what people with experinece think about it |
| 06:13:44 | <Franciman> | at page 5 of the pdf there is an example of such leaks |
| 06:14:14 | <Franciman> | i think reactive-banana found other ways to solve the issue |
| 06:14:34 | <Franciman> | and in general the non arrowised version seems easier to work with at the beginning |
| 06:15:40 | <Axman6> | jackdk: do you have thoughts on ^ and FRP/Reflex? |
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| 07:00:06 | <jackdk> | Axman6: I am not familiar enough with FRP implementation details and/or arrowised FRP to say anything useful here, sorry |
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| 07:01:46 | <merijn> | mon_aaraj: arrows are a mostly dead abstraction that have been obsoleted by a combination of other, more useful classes/abstractions |
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| 07:01:58 | <merijn> | mon_aaraj: Specifically: Applicative, Profunctor, and Category |
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| 07:13:32 | <chreekat> | There's still somebody (was it the opaleye author?) who argues for the value of arrows, but yeah not a lot of use in the wild |
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| 07:15:27 | <merijn> | I mean, the fact that the only libraries using arrows that I'm aware of predate arrows and are, like, over a decade old seems to suggest the consensus is they're dead :p |
| 07:15:47 | <merijn> | Meanwhile, Profunctor has spread across large swathes of libraries in a handful of years |
| 07:16:48 | <merijn> | There's a reason Monad and Applicative where, effectively, *everywhere* within a handful of years of being introduced and arrows are not :p |
| 07:17:06 | <merijn> | I think Arrow adoption would've been bigger if "arr" had not existed |
| 07:20:20 | <mon_aaraj> | merijn: Alright... that's an interesting response |
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| 07:21:19 | <merijn> | mon_aaraj: basically, the combination of Category, Profunctor, and Applicative can be used to implement nearly (if not literally? ask edwardk :p) everything you can do with Arrow. Except with more flexible and general interfaces |
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| 07:22:01 | <mon_aaraj> | yeah, i do know that they can be used to implement the entirety of arrows |
| 07:22:19 | <merijn> | Also, nobody understands ArrowSyntax :p |
| 07:22:45 | <mon_aaraj> | but why would you re-implement them when arrows were already implemented (using the same ADTs you just listed) with great support from the haskell side? |
| 07:23:20 | <merijn> | Well, they don't really ahve great support in the ecosystem (nothing uses them), the other classes do |
| 07:23:23 | <mon_aaraj> | but it's interesting, i thought arrows were pretty much general and useful enough. what would you improve by re-implementing them with "more flexible and general interfaces"? what's the upside? |
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| 07:24:02 | <merijn> | mon_aaraj: They're actually not so general. 90% of the times I wanted to use arrows I got screwd by "arr :: Arrow arr => (a -> b) -> arr a b" being unimplementable |
| 07:24:34 | <mon_aaraj> | well isn't that the only useful manner you could use arrows while keeping them as profunctors? |
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| 07:26:01 | <mon_aaraj> | i'm assuming you mean that you had a function with arity of >1, so you couldn't use `arr` on that function. unless you mean something else? |
| 07:28:06 | <c_wraith> | nah, it's about cases that can't be profunctors either |
| 07:28:28 | <mon_aaraj> | cases? |
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| 07:29:54 | <mon_aaraj> | oh, nevermind, you can have any function be `arr`d, even if it has more than 1 arity |
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| 07:30:43 | <c_wraith> | like... arr is a natural consequence of category + functor. Usually if you have a type where that's a problem, it's the functor instance that's the problem |
| 07:31:33 | <mon_aaraj> | that's very interestinhg |
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| 07:34:17 | <chreekat> | Apparently there are also problems with arrows other than ergonomics. I thought https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/303 was interesting |
| 07:35:06 | <mon_aaraj> | oh, wow, lexilambda again, i guess the haskell world is a very very small one |
| 07:35:16 | <mon_aaraj> | i was just looking at eff and their twitch clip of algebraic effects |
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| 07:37:25 | <mon_aaraj> | hm... very interersting read, but it looks like it isn't a fundamental issue with arrows, just GHC optimization issues? |
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| 07:39:06 | <mon_aaraj> | if you can't tell already, i personally believe arrows are decent abstractions. i don't really use them a lot, i find them nice in FRP.. but that's mostly it. i've recently discovered that arrows might have some big design issue and i've been asking around to see what the issue with them was |
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| 08:00:12 | <maerwald[m]> | mon_aaraj: no one knows what they are for, mostly |
| 08:00:31 | <maerwald[m]> | The blockchain of category theory |
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| 08:01:39 | <merijn> | So they're for duping people with only superificial understanding? ;) |
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| 08:03:24 | <dminuoso> | maerwald[m]: Re cabal flags. If another package depends on aeson being in scope *implicitly*, I say they deserve all their breakage. |
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| 08:05:10 | <maerwald[m]> | dminuoso: I'm not sure I understand |
| 08:05:32 | <dminuoso> | "When another package/import provides the disabled API" |
| 08:05:36 | <dminuoso> | Maybe I misunderstood. |
| 08:06:31 | <maerwald[m]> | I'm talking about your own package. It might only compile with the flag turned off, because with it turned on you may get ambiguous imports or so |
| 08:06:36 | <dminuoso> | Do you mean if I have a diamond shaped dependency, where dependency *depends* on the API being present, but I disable it anyway? |
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| 08:07:08 | <maerwald[m]> | So you should make sure your package compiles with the flag on and off |
| 08:07:22 | <dminuoso> | Ah yes |
| 08:07:27 | <maerwald[m]> | It's not guaranteed, evev if the flag just disables api |
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| 08:09:41 | <maerwald[m]> | merijn: arrows are a scam, making use of your greedy dopamine system, yes |
| 08:11:37 | <dminuoso> | Can I have have continuations with arrows? |
| 08:11:42 | <dminuoso> | I want non-local goto. |
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| 08:12:18 | <mon_aaraj> | maerwald[m]: very true. i find that there are way too little resources for arrows and working with them |
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| 08:13:01 | <mon_aaraj> | i am responding to the "no one knows what they are for" message |
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| 08:45:28 | <mon_aaraj> | huh, i might've found something to solve the issues you guys said arrows had: https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2014/EECS-2014-130.pdf |
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| 08:46:37 | <maerwald> | mon_aaraj: a 90 pages paper? |
| 08:46:55 | <mon_aaraj> | yeah, it tries to generalize arrows and it looks very interesting |
| 08:47:58 | <maerwald> | so maybe 2% of Haskellers will read that and half of those will decide that Arrows are still not interesting |
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| 08:49:22 | <mon_aaraj> | lol |
| 08:52:04 | <mon_aaraj> | It is very interesting though, the fact that Applicative+Category is much more expressive than arrows |
| 08:52:18 | <mon_aaraj> | it looks like it might be a better solution to the problem |
| 08:53:06 | <mon_aaraj> | and with something like category-syntax (though it hasn't had a commit since 2017, but it at least proves it's possible) has an alternative to proc syntax implemented |
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| 09:02:42 | <umbriel89> | Hello, Im having a bad time with VSCode and modules, can anyone try to help me? Im following a book, a book, and one of the exercises asked me to use System.Random, problem was, VSCode displays an error saying that "could not find the module" but the code compiles and run ok, same happens if I create a new project using stack new, VSCode says that |
| 09:02:42 | <umbriel89> | module Lib does not export someFunc, but it works just fine, something similar happened when I tried to use hspec, VSCode go crazy but the code runs just fine... is there something that I can do to fix this? |
| 09:04:38 | <sm> | #haskell-language-server is the best place to help with this |
| 09:05:42 | <umbriel89> | thanks |
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| 13:55:17 | <Guest51> | @pl let f x = 5 + 8 / x in f |
| 13:55:17 | <lambdabot> | (5 +) . (8 /) |
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| 13:56:23 | <Guest51> | @pl let f t = g t (y t) in f |
| 13:56:24 | <lambdabot> | ap g y |
| 13:56:49 | <Surobaki> | Hi, I´ve been working on my substitution engine for a program working in first order logic and skolemizing it. I think I´m not understanding the way pattern matching works in my usage of it on the final lines of thge program, could anyone with the time explain why the last three patterns do not allow for a `Sum _ _` to get passed in as `u´? Thanks! https://paste.tomsmeding.com/75w4zuHF |
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| 13:59:50 | <geekosaur> | I would first add a catch-all case that printed out what it was passed; it's possible you're not getting what you think you are |
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| 14:02:10 | <Surobaki> | geekosaur: Great idea, thanks! |
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| 14:04:15 | <Guest51> | @pl let f t = g (y t) t in f |
| 14:04:16 | <lambdabot> | g =<< y |
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| 20:08:15 | <Profpatsch> | Is it possible that a race (threadDelay 1000) (takeMVar varFromOtherThread) could hang on the mvar indefinitely? |
| 20:10:06 | <Profpatsch> | I’m not waiting that long, maybe 100ms |
| 20:11:29 | <EvanR_> | threadDelay and mvars should work together flawlessly |
| 20:11:42 | <Profpatsch> | when I set it to 1000 it seems to fire the threadDelay |
| 20:11:52 | <Profpatsch> | When I set it to 10000 (microsecs), it hangs on the mvar |
| 20:11:59 | <Profpatsch> | which is really weird |
| 20:12:12 | <Profpatsch> | as far as I know, this is the threaded rts |
| 20:12:36 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR_: maybe a weird interaction with Async? |
| 20:12:41 | <Profpatsch> | I can’t reproduce in ghci |
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| 20:13:01 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR_: but the MVar is written from a different Async thread |
| 20:13:16 | <EvanR_> | it hangs even if you write to the MVar from another thread? |
| 20:13:28 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR_: No, only if I don’t write |
| 20:13:33 | <Profpatsch> | if I write it continues |
| 20:13:35 | <EvanR_> | at least there's that xD |
| 20:13:37 | <Profpatsch> | lol |
| 20:13:48 | <Profpatsch> | I have two nested Async.race’s maybe that’s the reason |
| 20:14:01 | <EvanR_> | well that's what async was designed for |
| 20:14:11 | <EvanR_> | composing thread shenanigans properly |
| 20:14:28 | <Profpatsch> | Async.race_ (… do some stuff and write to mvar) (Async.race (threadDelay 10000) (takeMVar) >>= …) |
| 20:14:38 | <EvanR_> | oh |
| 20:14:39 | <EvanR_> | lol |
| 20:14:46 | <EvanR_> | do you see it yet |
| 20:14:51 | <Profpatsch> | not … really? |
| 20:14:57 | <Profpatsch> | the mvar is created outside of both |
| 20:15:15 | <Profpatsch> | the leftmost one is a long-running child process |
| 20:15:28 | <EvanR_> | hmm |
| 20:15:49 | <Profpatsch> | Mayybe I can get a repro going |
| 20:15:59 | <EvanR_> | the leftmost one is long running? it's going to get killed if it loses the race |
| 20:16:02 | <Profpatsch> | Just stripping away everything that’s unrelated |
| 20:16:17 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR_: that’s okay, it has a subprocess which should be killed as well |
| 20:16:39 | <EvanR_> | it can't be any longer running that the thread delay |
| 20:16:40 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR_: The mvar contains a (Chan a), maybe that’s related |
| 20:16:43 | <EvanR_> | than |
| 20:16:59 | <Profpatsch> | Maybe I need to be more specific |
| 20:17:07 | <Profpatsch> | Async.race_ (… do some stuff and write to mvar) $ Async.race (threadDelay 10000) (takeMVar) >>= … |
| 20:17:32 | <Profpatsch> | They are nested (longRunning, (delay, consumeLongRunning)) |
| 20:18:00 | <Profpatsch> | So the whole right section has to finish (or the subprocess dies first then everything dies but that’s okay) |
| 20:18:16 | <Profpatsch> | lemme try to get a repro going |
| 20:18:43 | <EvanR_> | are any threads doing a tight loop that doesn't allow interruption |
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| 20:19:20 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR_: that’s a good question, the other side uses some Conduit stuff |
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| 20:19:26 | <EvanR_> | in which case you need N=2 maybe |
| 20:19:28 | <Profpatsch> | let’s see if that’s still causing troubles if I remove it |
| 20:19:36 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR_: N=2? |
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| 20:19:56 | EvanR_ | is now known as EvanR |
| 20:20:21 | <Profpatsch> | I mean |
| 20:20:25 | <Profpatsch> | > There is no guarantee that the thread will be rescheduled promptly when the delay has expired |
| 20:20:27 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:20:27 | <lambdabot> | Data constructor not in scope: |
| 20:20:27 | <lambdabot> | There |
| 20:20:31 | <Profpatsch> | from threadDelay docs |
| 20:20:43 | <Profpatsch> | So “not promptly” might mean indefinite :) |
| 20:20:53 | <EvanR> | not ime |
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| 20:21:25 | <EvanR> | N is the number of threads the threaded runtime uses |
| 20:21:39 | <Profpatsch> | oh! Maybe that’s it |
| 20:21:49 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR: hm, should I be using threadDelay in the first place then? |
| 20:21:54 | <Profpatsch> | I thought the delay was related to green threads |
| 20:21:56 | <Profpatsch> | not actual threads |
| 20:21:56 | <EvanR> | with N=1, one (forkIO) thread can hog the system if it doesn't do any memory allocation (?) |
| 20:22:35 | <EvanR> | threadDelay suspends the forkIO thread |
| 20:22:56 | <Profpatsch> | Can I suspend just the green thread? |
| 20:23:03 | <EvanR> | that's what forkIO is |
| 20:23:11 | <Profpatsch> | oh, right |
| 20:23:39 | <EvanR> | make sure you're using -threaded at all |
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| 20:24:41 | <Profpatsch> | I’m def using -threaded, because without it this already hanged itself: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-extra-1.3.6/docs/Data-Conduit-Process.html#v:sourceProcessWithConsumer |
| 20:27:26 | <Profpatsch> | Hm, increasing the cores doesn’t seem to help |
| 20:27:44 | <Profpatsch> | If +RTS -N2 -RTS is what increases the cores |
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| 20:28:19 | <geekosaur> | the OS makes no guarantees that a given timeout will be strictly obeyed, unless it's a realtime thread |
| 20:28:51 | <Profpatsch> | geekosaur: But, like, it differs by a few ms at most |
| 20:28:55 | <Profpatsch> | not by indefinite |
| 20:29:14 | <geekosaur> | right |
| 20:29:16 | <Profpatsch> | I get a deadlock if the mvar is still empty |
| 20:29:19 | <Profpatsch> | which sounds … bad? |
| 20:29:37 | <geekosaur> | it shouldn't be indefinite, it's just not guaranteed to be exactly 10000 usec |
| 20:29:53 | <Profpatsch> | the timeout is arbitrary anyway |
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| 20:31:00 | <EvanR> | in my experience, threadDelay wakes up a short time after you asked. with -threaded the accuracy is better. And when threadDelay never wakes up, it's a problem with my runtime options |
| 20:31:33 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 20:32:11 | <Profpatsch> | Is there any other options besides -N that I should set? |
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| 20:33:00 | <geekosaur> | or with one thread "hogging the system" which could be a deadlock, a failure to allocate (try -fno-omit-yields), or an FFI incorrectly marked "unsafe" (God help you) |
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| 20:38:42 | <Profpatsch> | okay lol, I had this passed to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-extra-1.3.6/docs/Data-Conduit-Process.html#v:sourceProcessWithConsumer |
| 20:38:50 | <Profpatsch> | (liftIO $ putMVar firstEvent sendEventChan) |
| 20:38:52 | <Profpatsch> | >> (Cond.mapM_ (\ev -> writeChan sendEventChan ev)) |
| 20:39:06 | <Profpatsch> | The idea was that I want to fill the mvar when the process is booted up |
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| 20:39:26 | <Profpatsch> | But now I’m like: what if the conduit is only executed when the process starts sending data |
| 20:39:46 | <Profpatsch> | And the whole idea here was, as long as the process is not yet sending data, do the race on threadDelay |
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| 20:49:05 | <EvanR> | I've never used conduit and don't know how it interacts with concurrency |
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| 20:57:45 | <Profpatsch> | Hm, I think it was just a logic problem |
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| 20:59:14 | <Profpatsch> | I need to send an initial message (this can be getting the chan from the MVar) and then race on the second message (the first message in the chan that I passed) |
| 20:59:19 | <Profpatsch> | Instead of racing on the mvar |
| 20:59:52 | <Profpatsch> | Cause the mvar will always be filled immediately (with the chan), but I want to wait on the first actual message of course |
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| 21:05:54 | <Profpatsch> | hah, now it works |
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| 21:07:59 | <EvanR> | elementary dear watson |
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| 21:18:48 | <Profpatsch> | Is there a good reason Control.Concurrent.Chan doesn’t implement Functor? |
| 21:18:52 | <Profpatsch> | Kinda annoying |
| 21:19:26 | <monochrom> | Is it an immutable data structure? |
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| 21:21:49 | <EvanR> | IO is a functor, but you can't write to an IO |
| 21:22:30 | <EvanR> | if you fmap a Chan, there's no way to write anymore |
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| 21:24:58 | polo | is now known as money |
| 21:25:35 | <EvanR> | it's crazy often haskell does something for a "good reason" xD |
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| 22:56:36 | <lally> | Hi, I got a weird one today. When building a stackage lts 19.13 project, I got a "Setup.lhs: Encountered missing or private dependencies: attoparsec:attoparsec-internal" Ref: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/I6dcBDTO |
| 22:56:42 | <lally> | Has anyone seen this before? |
| 22:56:50 | <lally> | (using rules_haskell) |
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| 23:10:39 | <sm> | not me.. I'd try stack clean --full, whatever the bazal equivalent is, and comparing a non bazel build |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-06-29.