Logs on 2022-07-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:00:34 | <edinwood> | whats the opposite of a zoid? |
| 00:00:54 | <monochrom> | A domain induced by an algebraic data type is a free domain. Abbreviated FreeDom. |
| 00:01:19 | <hololeap> | a pet rock? |
| 00:02:20 | <edinwood> | why did the titanic sink into the depths of a recursive cycle of inverse abstract strangeness? because it hit a free-co-zoid-berg |
| 00:02:31 | <edinwood> | oh i forgot the futurama reference |
| 00:03:20 | <monochrom> | Is that Dr Strange in The Recursive Cycle of Inverse Abstract Strangeness? |
| 00:03:54 | <edinwood> | "what do you know about the halting problem" |
| 00:04:38 | <edinwood> | i saw some graffiti in Split that said "non stop free croatia" |
| 00:05:11 | <edinwood> | actually i think it was "non stop gay croatia" but someone had crossed out some of the words... |
| 00:05:32 | <edinwood> | i think it originally said "stop gays in croatia" or something horrible |
| 00:06:06 | <edinwood> | i think i need to eat something... |
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| 00:06:15 | <monochrom> | Ugh Theseus's Graffati |
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| 00:37:45 | <edinwood> | so, one thing thats quite interesting about this thing im working on, is that it shows from something to do with the compositionality of traversals, er |
| 00:37:59 | <edinwood> | i might have to stick with scanners and not traversals |
| 00:38:16 | <edinwood> | yeah, because the applicative at least has to be the same |
| 00:38:41 | <edinwood> | so, from scanner algebra, to some decoupling of the type in mapAccumL |
| 00:38:51 | <edinwood> | which is the same type that appears in fold more or less |
| 00:38:57 | <edinwood> | :t foldl |
| 00:38:58 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b |
| 00:39:03 | <edinwood> | :t mapAccumL |
| 00:39:05 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
| 00:39:21 | <edinwood> | except it has this extra `c' output |
| 00:39:47 | <edinwood> | i need ((a -> b -> a),(a -> b -> c)) for this algegra |
| 00:40:15 | <edinwood> | since it treats the scanning direction, and the output direction as orthogonal |
| 00:40:34 | <edinwood> | the language thing i was working on is for the slice perpendicular to the direction of scanning |
| 00:40:49 | <edinwood> | to express the compositional algebra as a program graph |
| 00:41:04 | <edinwood> | i like how it decouples that type |
| 00:41:23 | <edinwood> | i bet the people that first wrote it were like "is there any reason we shouldnt have that as 2 seperate functions" |
| 00:41:41 | <edinwood> | and "maybe at some point someone will figure out a case where thats useful" |
| 00:41:47 | <edinwood> | which i think this algebra thing does |
| 00:42:23 | <edinwood> | cool huh? |
| 00:43:20 | <edinwood> | i think mapAccumL is overlooked, it has special properties, i hope that building the scanner abstraction around it helps people working on these properties |
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| 00:45:01 | <edinwood> | on a more technical note, stemming from the utility of the scanner instance for a datatype combining a head value with a tail wrapped in a monad (listT "done right") |
| 00:45:20 | <edinwood> | there is an observation that in a very abstract phrasing, a graph is a monadically tailed list |
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| 00:46:20 | <edinwood> | with conventional graphs obtained for a specific monad |
| 00:46:28 | <edinwood> | handling the indexing |
| 00:46:35 | <edinwood> | (all the seti stuff) |
| 00:47:36 | <edinwood> | im not sure if this is too much scientific artistic liberty, but you can almost understand this from the cofree extension of the graph pointer |
| 00:48:14 | <edinwood> | since this is clearly some kind of index wrapping, though here it appears on the head also, this would be reversed by using comandic extract |
| 00:49:06 | <edinwood> | the "index wrapping" of this pointer duplicate being a way to (almost) conceptualise how monadic indexing at the tail leads to a graph |
| 00:49:39 | <edinwood> | obviously this isnt concrete without an actual indexing... which might be why it is glaringly not a definition of a graph, but it should be after that is supplied |
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| 00:50:21 | <edinwood> | trees for example have this as (Int,Int) pairs of how far up and down you have to go to get to the next value |
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| 00:50:48 | <edinwood> | collecting those at head deconstruction allows the tree to be reconstructed |
| 00:50:58 | <edinwood> | basically the constructor is taking an index aswell |
| 00:51:12 | <edinwood> | but you can wrap that into the monadic tail, so... |
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| 00:53:57 | <edinwood> | yeah, i guess you dont detatch all the data, so i think the `up` index you keep at the decontructed value (the head), and the other index stays at the tail |
| 00:54:46 | <edinwood> | you could add a branch to the front of the tree with any depth... so this is supplied with the head |
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| 00:55:08 | <edinwood> | and you could place it at any position up the tail, which should remember where this was when it was detatched |
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| 00:57:25 | <edinwood> | so its a bunch of values combined with a notional depth, in a list with the tails being paired with a height from this value to the next leftward branch |
| 00:57:39 | <edinwood> | tails paired with a value being the monadic tail as expected |
| 00:57:51 | <edinwood> | trees being graphs and graphs being monadically tailed lists |
| 00:58:21 | <edinwood> | with some subtelty about how the index supplied with the head is incorperated |
| 01:00:16 | <edinwood> | oh, because all the contents are "at some depth", ie because of this monadic tailing, the "list" isnt actually storing the values of type `a', but wrapping them up, which can be factored into the "tail monad" |
| 01:00:43 | <edinwood> | pretty high impact stuff! |
| 01:02:27 | <edinwood> | here, i uploaded it to the preprint server; https://paste.tomsmeding.com/aCVp660n |
| 01:02:48 | <edinwood> | "monadic tails and scanning algebras" |
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| 01:07:34 | <edinwood> | this might be more readable; https://paste.tomsmeding.com/j0OP5RH2 |
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| 01:36:59 | <hasky> | why is foldrM in Data.Foldable implemented in terms of foldl not foldr? |
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| 01:39:12 | <monochrom> | One of the ironies of the universe :) |
| 01:39:30 | <monochrom> | If you used foldr, how far would you get? |
| 01:40:07 | <monochrom> | In terms of actual code? Not in terms of "an eye for an eye, an r for an r" armchair philosophy? |
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| 01:41:07 | <is7s> | `foldrM f e xs = foldr (\x ma -> ma >>= \a -> f x a) (pure e) xs` |
| 01:42:27 | <hasky> | yeah that's what I had in mind |
| 01:44:26 | <hasky> | monochrom what's wrong with that implementation? |
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| 01:46:07 | <Lears> | % let foldrM f e xs = foldr (\x ma -> ma >>= \a -> f x a) (pure e) xs in foldrM (\a _ -> print a) () "chars" |
| 01:46:07 | <yahb2> | 's' ; 'r' ; 'a' ; 'h' ; 'c' |
| 01:50:25 | <monochrom> | I see. |
| 01:50:52 | <dolio> | Too slow on your usual answer. |
| 01:51:03 | <monochrom> | I guess it was inspired by foldlM being a foldr. |
| 01:52:36 | <hasky> | foldrM using foldr should potentially fold infinite lists for suffieciently lazy monads, so I'm not sure why the foldl |
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| 11:40:05 | <[exa]> | language corner: what would you call a variant of `satisfy` from parsecs if it would act on multiple characters, kinda like takeWhile but with state? (takeWhile is apparently called `munch` in parsecs) |
| 11:40:27 | <[exa]> | I rejected "satisfys" and "satisfies" for english reasons. |
| 11:40:46 | <Franciman> | satisfyMany |
| 11:41:27 | <Franciman> | or, satisfySeq |
| 11:41:39 | <Franciman> | stringSatisfy |
| 11:48:55 | <[exa]> | hm yeah I think satisfySeq sounds best |
| 11:50:57 | <[exa]> | hm would there be a canonical form for "takeWhile with state" function that I could pass in there? currently I'm at something like |
| 11:51:42 | <[exa]> | satisfySeq :: Stream s m tok => ([tok] -> Int) -> ParsecT s u m [tok] |
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| 11:56:00 | <AndreasK> | Isnh't that just "tokens" |
| 11:57:46 | <[exa]> | almost, tokens works on Eq, I'd like to have something that can scan in the tokenstream itself |
| 11:58:02 | <[exa]> | aaah maybe `scan` would be a good name. :D |
| 11:58:33 | <[exa]> | aaand turns out attoparsec has precisely that |
| 11:58:57 | <[exa]> | thanks all for consultation! :] |
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| 12:41:13 | <yax___> | why isnt there a generic split :: (Char -> Bool) -> String -> [String] function??? |
| 12:41:19 | <yax___> | words isnt specific enough |
| 12:43:43 | <yax___> | * general enough |
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| 12:45:14 | <geekosaur> | :t splitOn |
| 12:45:16 | <lambdabot> | Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> [[a]] |
| 12:46:04 | <hpc> | @src splitOn |
| 12:46:04 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. I've seen penguins that can type better than that. |
| 12:46:06 | <geekosaur> | Data.List.Split (from the split package) provides a bunch of splitters |
| 12:46:31 | <hpc> | ah, there we go - https://hackage.haskell.org/package/split-0.2.3.4/docs/Data-List-Split.html#v:splitWhen |
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| 12:48:03 | <geekosaur[m]> | And otherwise I think you want break |
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| 15:16:42 | <hololeap> | ok, so module A exports `data Version` and `data VersionNum`, module A.Internal exports `newtype FauxVersion = FauxVersion Version` and `newtype FauxVersionNum = FauxVersionNum VersionNum` |
| 15:17:21 | <hololeap> | module A needs to use the Faux newtype wrappers internally. how do I break the cycle with a .hs-boot file? |
| 15:17:55 | <hololeap> | ultimately, I need the Faux versions both in the lib and the test suite, but I don't want them exposed |
| 15:18:50 | <hololeap> | this is using cabal, bth |
| 15:18:53 | <hololeap> | *btw |
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| 15:21:25 | <hololeap> | oh, I know what to do... define the Version and VersionNum types in the internal module, then re-export them in module A |
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| 15:22:04 | <hololeap> | unless there is another trick I don't know of. I don't see a lot of examples of how to use .hs-boot files online |
| 15:22:06 | <geekosaur> | that was my thought, what you described seemed kinda backwards to me |
| 15:22:22 | <geekosaur> | no, .hs-boot files are mostly avoided, for good reason |
| 15:22:49 | <geekosaur> | most of the examples are in base |
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| 15:36:15 | <maerwald> | hololeap: they're quite straight forward |
| 15:37:45 | <maerwald> | think of them as a way to inline functions... the stuff you move to hs boot file marks them inlinable... then when you import with {-# SOURCE #-} pragma, they get inlined without depending on the module they're from |
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| 15:40:09 | <Haskelytic> | fellas, what kind of background/experience would you need to get a Haskell dev role? |
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| 15:43:00 | <maerwald> | Haskelytic: major in maths, 10 years of research in category theory, you've written at least 2 functional compilers and rejected offers from Google and Facebook |
| 15:44:15 | geekosaur | *eyeroll* |
| 15:44:16 | <darkling> | I thought the first two parts were just the requirement to be able to write FizzBuzz? :) |
| 15:44:23 | <geekosaur> | although I've at least got that last |
| 15:44:34 | <geekosaur> | decided I didn't want the stress |
| 15:44:39 | <maerwald> | geekosaur: me too xD |
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| 15:45:10 | <Haskelytic> | maerwald: I see I have got another decade of hair loss to go then :) |
| 15:46:07 | <whatsupboy> | rejecting offers from google and facebook is achievement? I am just in and don't know what is that about |
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| 16:02:53 | <geekosaur> | whatsupboy, if they're interested then you've done enough to come to their attention |
| 16:02:59 | <geekosaur> | which is an achievement |
| 16:03:51 | <maerwald> | basically marketing yourself |
| 16:03:53 | <geekosaur> | especially for someone like me who's (a) self-taught (b) been around for long enough that they can make a good guess as to my age, and normally they'd ignore oldsters |
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| 16:04:28 | <geekosaur> | they want kids that will work for less 🙂 |
| 16:04:53 | <maerwald> | geekosaur: time to go into middle management... oh wait, they're all being laid off right now :p |
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| 16:05:33 | <monochrom> | Time to go to upper management... |
| 16:06:12 | <monochrom> | Right? That joke about a village hiring a security guard. |
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| 16:07:57 | <monochrom> | The village needed a security guard so they hired one. Then they hired an accountant to take care of the payroll. Then they hired a manager to organize those two. Then the manager wanted to cut cost so they laid off the accountant and the security guard. |
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| 16:08:55 | <Haskelytic> | XD |
| 16:09:03 | <Haskelytic> | Never heard that joke |
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| 16:09:45 | <maerwald> | lolz |
| 16:09:57 | <darkling> | Nor have I... but I might have lived through it. |
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| 16:25:14 | <whatsupboy> | geekosaur: I mean having math major, 10years research on anything itself is achievement...and people hype google and facebook Irejecting offers from them is best thing but not achievement in my opinion |
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| 16:30:10 | <Haskelytic> | Man, the haskell book really loves to confuse the shit out of you |
| 16:30:37 | <Haskelytic> | chapter on monads starts with saying that `return` and `>>` aren't the special part (so implicitly suggesting `>>=` is the sauce) |
| 16:30:55 | <Haskelytic> | but then a few paragraphs later contradicting that by saying, it's also not `>>=` that's the special sauce |
| 16:30:58 | <Haskelytic> | wut |
| 16:31:31 | <Haskelytic> | hot take: people in tech don't know how to write |
| 16:31:53 | <Haskelytic> | that includes me :) |
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| 16:32:18 | <[exa]> | writing is hard |
| 16:32:23 | <yushyin> | maybe it's pure/join :P |
| 16:32:46 | <[exa]> | technically nothing is special about monads |
| 16:33:22 | <sm> | try another book ? |
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| 16:40:49 | <Haskelytic> | I just skimmed the word soup and went to examples and exercises |
| 16:40:54 | <Haskelytic> | only way to learn it anyways :) |
| 16:44:17 | <Haskelytic> | on a side note, I'm just blown away sometimes by how uniform the term-level and type-level syntaxes are in Haskell |
| 16:44:40 | <Haskelytic> | e.g. type application vs function application |
| 16:44:45 | <Haskelytic> | where did this idea come from? |
| 16:44:54 | <darchitect> | The HaskellBook is the best IMHO, but the thing is you shoulddn't go through it religiously, if you don't get a concept -> go to youtube see some stuff visualized and then come back to it. If you still don't get it, do a couple of exercises and see why a given concept is useful. I am at the end of the Monad's chapter myself and am loving it this far, because it covers everything (including |
| 16:44:56 | <darchitect> | QuickCheck, building of projects, etc..) |
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| 16:48:11 | <Haskelytic> | darchitect: yeah, it's not a bad book per se |
| 16:48:15 | <Haskelytic> | I just really really hate the prose |
| 16:48:38 | <sm> | @where htac is a lighter intro |
| 16:48:38 | <lambdabot> | "Haskell Tutorial and Cookbook" by Mark Watson in 2017-09-04 at <https://leanpub.com/haskell-cookbook> |
| 16:48:44 | <darchitect> | yeah, at times it's a bit too much and some of the examples are a little wacky, but I loved they referenced stuff from Dune and Bladerunner at some point :d |
| 16:49:04 | <Haskelytic> | to compare, I like the subtle humor in Tanenbaum's books whereas the haskell book just overdoes it with the "hehe im so quirky :P" nonsense |
| 16:49:24 | <Haskelytic> | esp when I'm not in a good mood I feel like punching a hole through my screen :) |
| 16:49:33 | <Haskelytic> | but maybe it's just me :) |
| 16:50:02 | <darchitect> | you cannot not be in a good mood when writing haskell, it's the zen of programming |
| 16:50:05 | <darchitect> | :d |
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| 16:50:14 | <Haskelytic> | sm: whooaa how come i never came across this book lol |
| 16:50:27 | <Haskelytic> | Oh i see why lol |
| 16:50:29 | <Haskelytic> | 2021 |
| 16:50:45 | <Haskelytic> | darchitect: joke's on you, i like to write Haskell furiously :) |
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| 16:50:59 | <monochrom> | Perhaps nothing is special about monads. |
| 16:51:13 | <monochrom> | btw "special" is ambiguous in the first place. |
| 16:52:12 | <sm> | Haskelytic: it gets ignored. But there are a ton of them now, |
| 16:52:12 | <sm> | @where books |
| 16:52:12 | <lambdabot> | See `LYAH',`RWH',`YAHT',`SOE',`HR',`PIH',`TFwH',`wikibook',`PCPH',`HPFFP',`FSAF',`HftVB',`HTAC',`TwT',`FoP',`PFAD',`WYAH',`non-haskell-books'. Also <https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources. |
| 16:52:12 | <lambdabot> | html>,<https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books> |
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| 16:57:10 | <geekosaur> | >>= is what makes Monads Monads, but it's not really that special |
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| 17:06:40 | <int-e> | dolio: Oh there's a youtube video titled "how to lie using visual proofs", I wonder whether it's any good |
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| 17:09:31 | <Haskelytic> | int-e: you should mention that it's 3b1b |
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| 17:12:28 | <monochrom> | haha "it would be fine if pi=4. Now I show you why pi=4" >:) |
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| 17:16:23 | <dolio> | Oh wow, that's brand new. |
| 17:16:56 | <int-e> | Haskelytic: But I didn't know that when I mentioned it ;) |
| 17:16:59 | <dolio> | Ironic that it's that channel, too, since although the videos are fun, they're like 100% untrustworthy visual proofs. :þ |
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| 17:24:41 | <Haskelytic> | dolio: visual proofs are good sometimes :) |
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| 17:25:12 | <Haskelytic> | rigour is overrated anyway :P |
| 17:26:47 | <int-e> | okay, the isosceles triangle thing is pretty good (though I did catch it) |
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| 17:35:52 | <dolio> | Okay, I got it, too. |
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| 17:41:00 | <dolio> | The triangle one is sort of the core reason for my distrust. Draw one picture and erroneously presume that all pictures would look similar enough. |
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| 18:01:27 | <Guest|16> | People, how can i install ghcpu on kali linux |
| 18:04:41 | <yushyin> | https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/install/#getting-started did you try to follow this guide? |
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| 18:05:25 | <shapr> | Oh man, now I want a ghcpu .. is that a graph reduction cpu that's simulated in Haskell? |
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| 18:05:41 | <yushyin> | ;D |
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| 18:30:33 | <gurkenglas> | In free theorem generators, why are the types numbered t1,t2,t3,t4 instead of being grouped into pairs? |
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| 19:31:27 | <edinwood> | hey, how is everyone doing today!? |
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| 19:54:32 | <edinwood> | that good huh? |
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| 19:57:10 | <geekosaur> | given that it's a holiday weekend in the U.S., you're lucky if anyone's around |
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| 20:05:29 | <edinwood> | wana see my code? |
| 20:05:51 | <geekosaur> | I'm busy debugging something else |
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| 20:09:59 | <edinwood> | yeah, i dont need any debugging |
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| 20:10:23 | <edinwood> | managed to get what i was working on before in a state where i can actually make some design descisions |
| 20:10:35 | <edinwood> | ie "designing the compiler" |
| 20:10:46 | <edinwood> | just some constructor constraints... |
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| 20:11:15 | <edinwood> | so the last example doesnt compile yet, but there is a good indication from the basecase as to how the whole thing appears |
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| 20:12:17 | <edinwood> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/1Oihg1hk |
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| 20:27:40 | <geekosaur> | I just demonstrated how accidentally turning a let into a letrec can ruin your whole day… |
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| 20:32:19 | <[exa]> | accidental recursion is the best recursion |
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| 20:35:30 | [_] | is now known as [itchyjunk] |
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| 20:44:18 | <monochrom> | My student made a similar mistake on a recent test. They intended something like "myeq x y = MkE (x == y)" but they reused the name (==) where I wrote "myeq". |
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| 20:53:07 | <hololeap> | I just realized that QuickCheck is quite a bit like fuzzing |
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| 20:54:40 | <monochrom> | Yeah I think they are the same. |
| 20:55:18 | <monochrom> | OK, not the same. I think fuzzing is actually more efficient and effective :) |
| 20:56:39 | <monochrom> | reason being QuickCheck uses blindly uniform distributions, fuzzing uses more focused, evil tries-to-break-you distributions. |
| 20:58:03 | <monochrom> | I guess it means fuzzing requires some human to think harder to make evil distributions. |
| 20:58:19 | <hololeap> | well, it found a case that breaks my parser, although the chances of it being found in the wild are ~0% |
| 20:58:33 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that. :) |
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| 20:59:34 | geekosaur | considers that he has a history of tripping over "chances of it being found in the wild are ~0%" bugs… |
| 21:00:00 | <monochrom> | We may be able to bring fuzzing to Haskell. There ought to be something easily automatable in "take a look at the intended property, come up with a best-effort weighted distribution towards being evil" |
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| 21:01:39 | <hololeap> | in haskell it would probably lean toward creating OOM situations |
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| 21:05:32 | <monochrom> | haha. |
| 21:05:48 | <monochrom> | I recently had a Haskell OOM that killed Chrome :) |
| 21:06:08 | <monochrom> | Everyone here was like "good riddance" haha |
| 21:07:31 | <hololeap> | happens daily here, but I cram 20 open tabs and steam and compiling gcc and HLS and compiling ... into 12GB of ram |
| 21:09:27 | <hololeap> | but yeah even my QuickCheck Gens have grown out of control and caused OOM. it's super easy to do. |
| 21:11:05 | <monochrom> | Haha let me tell you again my attempt at randomly generating a large value of a recursive ADT that everyone pointed out "obviously it doesn't terminate" :) |
| 21:11:10 | <hololeap> | listOf $ listOf $ listOf $ listOf ... |
| 21:11:30 | <monochrom> | So let's say the ADT is a simple binary tree like "data T = E | B T T". |
| 21:11:32 | <[exa]> | OOMing is one way to break it and quickcheck found it!!!111 :D |
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| 21:13:19 | <hololeap> | CTRL+SYSRQ+F, CTRL+SYSRQ+F, CTRL+SYSRQ+F, CTRL+SYSRQ+F ... |
| 21:13:31 | <hololeap> | s/CTRL/ALT/ |
| 21:13:41 | <monochrom> | So I was doing what I didn't know was Boltzmann sampling but with hopeless probabilities. I was like: In the B case, each child has 0.5 chance of being E, 0.5 chance of being B and recurse. |
| 21:14:33 | <TMA> | some languages are unfriendly, Haskell is oomfriendly |
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| 21:15:01 | <monochrom> | I was surprised it kept growing and didn't stop. Someone here pointed out "so at every parent E(has a child) = 1 so you clearly have an infinite sequence" haha |
| 21:16:07 | <hololeap> | hm, yeah I don't fully understand why that's infinite, monochrom |
| 21:16:14 | <monochrom> | Since then I learned Boltzmann sampling properly. Now I know what probabilities to use to get what tree size. |
| 21:17:32 | <monochrom> | OK so at the top if you are lucky to get E you're good. But there is 0.5 chance you get B, now you're in trouble. |
| 21:18:05 | <hololeap> | oh, I see it now |
| 21:18:29 | <monochrom> | The left child has 0.5 chance of being B. The right child too. There is only 0.25 chance of terminating right away. |
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| 21:18:55 | <monochrom> | I guess s/E(has a child)/E(has a B child)/ |
| 21:19:13 | <TMA> | let t denote the tree size; expected tree size is Et = 0.5 + 0.5(Et+Et) ; that boils down to Et = 0.5 + Et ; |
| 21:19:36 | <TMA> | that holds for Et being infinite |
| 21:20:02 | <monochrom> | Yeah it's the ADT version of St. Petersburg Paradox |
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| 21:27:10 | <TMA> | I have an error there, the recurrency shall be Et = 0.5 + 0.5(1+Et+Et) ; that boils down to Et = 1 + Et; the conslusion is the same though |
| 21:27:30 | <monochrom> | "one more turn" :) |
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| 23:16:31 | <hololeap> | monochrom: btw, I did manage to write that parser using megaparsec: https://github.com/hololeap/cabal-portage/blob/main/portage-hs/src/Distribution/Portage/Types/Internal.hs#L360-L416 |
| 23:17:13 | <hololeap> | it does have an imperative/"choose your adventure" kinda feel to it |
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| 23:28:41 | <monochrom> | heh |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-07-03.