Logs on 2022-07-04 (liberachat/#haskell)

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03:05:41	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	please feel free to mark this as offtopic, but i know you folks do some ml/statistics type work, and this is relevant to algebraic constructions as well:
03:06:10	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i was doing some coding to calculate the entropy of something and accidentally defined the "vector entropy"
03:06:36	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i can't find "vector entropy" defined in the literature or anywhere else, and it is simply the contribution of each outcome to the total entropy
03:07:24	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	that is to say that if you have some event probabilities p_i, conventionally you talk about the (scalar) total entropy - sum p_i*log(p_i)
03:07:58	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	and i am using the vector entropy to be e_i = -p_i*log(p_i) (no sum)
03:09:29	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	anyway so my question is, does this have a name somewhere
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03:10:05	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i kinda think that the vector entropy should have some nice properties as compared to an ordinary vector of probabilities
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03:15:36	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i think this is maybe re-defining entropy here as a functor... and now i am finding a few search results on that but still don't have a clear picture
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09:27:08	<davidOhNo>	hello. is this the channel where haskell beginners can ask stupid questions when we run into confusion?
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09:29:53	<yushyin>	yes, ask away, someone will answer eventually
09:30:11	<davidOhNo>	oh, i just saw ten seconds ago that there is a #haskell-beginners channel somewhere, too
09:30:18	<davidOhNo>	maybe i should be in that chatroom instead?
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09:30:47	<davidOhNo>	(oh wait, haskell-beginners is a mailing list, not a chatroom)
09:31:49	<davidOhNo>	i am going through the Haskell wikibook. in section 14.1.5 , there is an example that is my first encounter with an "unnamed function".
09:31:53	<davidOhNo>	the line looks like:
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09:32:15	<davidOhNo>	echoes = foldr (\ x xs -> (replicate x x) ++ xs) []
09:32:17	<yushyin>	davidOhNo: you can ask in both channels, sometimes this channel has a lot of traffic and your question can then sometimes get lost. -beginners is a more low-traffic channel
09:32:37	<davidOhNo>	and i got a little worried because there is no type signature!
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09:32:46	<davidOhNo>	(ie no type signature for the unnamed function)
09:33:01	<yushyin>	however, it is perfectly ok to ask beginner questions here
09:33:13	<davidOhNo>	so my questions are 1) is there a way for a Haskell programmer to add a type signature to an unnamed function?
09:33:16	<davidOhNo>	and 2)
09:33:27	<merijn>	davidOhNo: Yes, but it's a bit inconvenient
09:33:40	<merijn>	> (\x -> x) True
09:33:42	<lambdabot>	True
09:33:51	<merijn>	> ((\x -> x) :: Int -> Int) True
09:33:53	<lambdabot>	error:
09:33:53	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘Bool’
09:33:53	<lambdabot>	• In the first argument of ‘(\ x -> x) :: Int -> Int’, namely
09:33:56	<merijn>	> ((\x -> x) :: Int -> Int) 5
09:33:57	<lambdabot>	5
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09:34:23	<davidOhNo>	when a programmer sees an unnamed function like the one i typed out, is it really true that they have to look at the function definition in order to make a guess of what the type signature is?
09:34:39	<davidOhNo>	that is, i'm guessing xs has to be a list, because, um .. maybe ++ only works for lists?
09:35:06	<merijn>	davidOhNo: yeah
09:35:19	<merijn>	(for both questions ;))
09:35:34	<davidOhNo>	oh wow. my poor brain.
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09:35:49	<davidOhNo>	my brain feels like it's already melting when i'm given the type signature, haha.
09:36:02	<merijn>	in practice unnamed functions that aren't trivial are fairly rare
09:36:07	<davidOhNo>	ok, what can i google to find out how to give a type signature when writing out an anonymous function?
09:36:18	<davidOhNo>	(i tried googling it but i failed)
09:36:39	<merijn>	davidOhNo: Realistically, the easiest solution was "turn it into a named function and add a type to that" (that's what I would do(
09:36:48	<dknite>	If you have to put a type signature on an unnamed function, its time to name it :)
09:36:59	<merijn>	davidOhNo: You can simply add parentheses with a type annotation like I did a few lines back
09:37:10	<merijn>	but I wouldn't generally consider doing that
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09:37:17	<davidOhNo>	merijn: oh sorry, i didn't know that a response! i'll read it now.
09:37:29	<dknite>	Unnamed functions work well only with really simply functions
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09:38:21	<davidOhNo>	ah, i see. it doesn't seem messy at all, actually
09:38:39	<davidOhNo>	dknite: what is "simple" to the writer might not be so "simple" to a beginner ;)
09:38:55	<davidOhNo>	certainly, the example in the wikibook that they gave for the first introduction to unnamed functions .. wasn't so simple for me.
09:39:34	<Lears>	davidOhNo: an anonymous function is generally an argument to another function (like foldr here). That being the case, you can focus on the type of foldr, which contains the type of the function it expects (in its most general form).
09:39:40	<davidOhNo>	[actually, the book just threw the concept in, as if it would be trivial to understand, when talking about a /different/ and new concept. it's so hard for dummies like me to keep up, when textbooks introduce more than one concept at a time...]
09:40:36	<dknite>	davidOhNo: I'd say that if you're new to Haskell, then "Learn You a Haskell" (http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters) is better for learning
09:40:40	<davidOhNo>	@Lears: oh, that does make some sense, for at least to help me see what the "rightmost" type would be in the type signature of the unnamed function.
09:40:40	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
09:40:44	<dknite>	The wikibook is a bit terse
09:40:54	<davidOhNo>	Lears: oh, that does make some sense, for at least to help me see what the "rightmost" type would be in the type signature of the unnamed function.
09:41:10	<davidOhNo>	i also notice you all are calling it an "anonymous function", while the book is calling it an "unnamed function".
09:41:23	<Lears>	They're synonyms.
09:41:26	<davidOhNo>	[i find the wikibook a /lot/ more easy to understand than Haskell From First Principles, though, which i'm kind of sad i bought]
09:42:10	<davidOhNo>	i wonder if the wikibook is still open to taking suggestions for edits. i do mostly like their organization, but there are a few places where programming jargon, or even unusual English words, make it hard to understand.
09:42:19	<davidOhNo>	(ie, hard to understand for someone who has never done programming in their life)
09:42:30	<davidOhNo>	the recursion section took me a while to understand, for example, haha
09:45:48	<davidOhNo>	thanks for your help everyone. bye.
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10:11:35	<sm>	isn't it editable ?
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10:12:20	<sm>	..yes, go for it !
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10:19:38	<kuribas>	most haskell material assumes some other programming knowledge.
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11:00:24	<Profpatsch>	I’m searching for a Constraint IsElem (e :: k) (ls :: '[k])
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12:05:39	<NaturalNumber123>	does anyone have any advice for installing emacs with native compilation?
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12:08:01	<NaturalNumber123>	oops, i now see that the emacswiki recommends a channel.
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12:09:28	<geekosaur>	was wondering. last time I installed emacs compiling it myself was 1988 >.>
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12:15:09	<Axman6>	Profpatsch: it;'s pretty easy to wright - I'm sure there's agood library which provides it but I can never remember what it or they are
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12:16:36	<Axman6>	write even
12:16:47	<Axman6>	shouldn't IRC after cocktails
12:17:38	<merijn>	That's one of the best times :p
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12:20:53	<Profpatsch>	Axman6: I found one in HList, but it’s too much over my head
12:21:06	<Profpatsch>	I noticed I actually want to have some values as well, not just a list of Symbol
12:21:24	<Profpatsch>	So what I’m gonna do is just (ab)use the type level list stuff from superrecord
12:21:44	<Profpatsch>	And have all the value level primitives be `undefined`
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12:22:10	<Profpatsch>	(I just need it for having a list of permissions on the type level, for a capability-inspired system)
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12:33:18	<mon_aaraj>	I'm having an issue with the sdl2 bindings in haskell. I'm trying to 1. paint a different background color 2. introduce a sprite using sdl2_image. The issue is that the result I'm getting is kind of a seizure generator. So, be warned. Compiling and running this code could result in epilepsy https://bpa.st/GNDQ
12:34:25	<mon_aaraj>	What this does is first, set the background to be blue; secondly, it puts in the breaker.png image.. the issue is that when it puts the image, the background becomes black again. And then the background is set to blue, then the breaker.png with a black bg; and it repeats.
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12:36:46	<merijn>	mon_aaraj: Quickly going over the SDL graphics it looks like you're asking it to "blank the screen", then immediately render an image, then loop back
12:36:54	<merijn>	Which, uh, sounds like a seizure generator, sure
12:37:00	<merijn>	So "don't do that then"?
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12:37:47	<mon_aaraj>	well, i assume by "blank the screen", you mean the "clear renderer" function; but if I don't call that, then the background color is never printed
12:37:55	<mon_aaraj>	how else would i paint the bg color?
12:38:07	<merijn>	mon_aaraj: present docs say: "Update the screen with any rendering performed since the previous call."
12:38:20	<merijn>	mon_aaraj: So present is rendering the freshly cleared screen
12:38:27	<merijn>	And then you add an image an render that too
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12:38:48	<merijn>	so you're updating to a completely blank, coloured background, rendering that, then rendering an image
12:39:05	<merijn>	Which sounds (to me like) "alternating between showing an image and a blank screen every other frame"
12:39:22	<mon_aaraj>	so you're saying i need to `present renderer` after putting the image onto the screen?
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12:39:42	<merijn>	I haven't read the docs in enough detail to know the correct answer
12:39:49	<merijn>	but my intuition says "yes"
12:40:07	<mon_aaraj>	yeah, figured as much. because i already tried `present renderer` after drawing the image, which provides the exact same result
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12:40:38	<mon_aaraj>	here's the code where the line is moved: https://bpa.st/WDHA
12:41:02	<mon_aaraj>	i in-fact moved my code a lot, not one combination made it any better
12:41:12	<merijn>	But also, that seems...a very tight loop for rendering
12:42:47	<mon_aaraj>	how do you mean?
12:43:22	<merijn>	mon_aaraj: The recursion in appLoop immediately redoes the rendering you just did
12:43:27	<merijn>	That...sounds wrong :)
12:44:01	<mon_aaraj>	yes, because if i don't run it as a loop the window will close immediately
12:44:48	<mon_aaraj>	which i could add a delay like.. im not sure, of 10 seconds by default? but generally an apploop seems like a better way to do things, in my very unexperienced and likely incorrect opinion
12:45:03	<mon_aaraj>	but if you do have any ideas, i'll be very thankful if you do tell
12:46:01	<merijn>	I mean, it's not wrong to loop. But you'd ideally wait until you actually have to change something :p
12:46:21	<merijn>	Redrawing the same picture "as fast as your CPU will allow" is generally "suboptimal" ;)
12:46:42	<mon_aaraj>	yep, i know! this isn't exactly production quality software currently
12:46:46	<merijn>	You'd normally sleep until something needs updating
12:46:59	<mon_aaraj>	it's just me trying things the easy way until i get how this works
12:47:20	<merijn>	If you add a "threadDelay 10e9" before the recursion, does it still turn into a seizure generator? :p
12:47:36	<mon_aaraj>	a very slow one, but that doesn't solve the problem either way..
12:47:44	<merijn>	hmm
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12:53:49	<mon_aaraj>	would you happen to know any place to get help with GUI things in haskell?
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13:08:29	<Guest27>	Hey! I recently wrote a simple hangman game in Haskell (https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/277633/hangman-game-in-haskell-written-using-a-state-monad) but wasn't very pleased with how it looked. Has anybody tried using Denotational Design when creating a project? Would it benefit me?
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13:41:43	<Profpatsch>	Hrm, now I have a way of passing an open record of permissions as a constraint, but GHC thinks it’s a redundant constraint
13:41:54	<Profpatsch>	Which is bad if you really want the permissions to exist :)
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14:08:01	<surobaki>	Is there any way to tell Haskell in fewer lines that this pattern match is commutative? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BT3rm4HC
14:08:35	<merijn>	no
14:09:22	<lortabac>	you can use a sorted list instead of matching on the arguments, but it's inefficient
14:09:37	<surobaki>	merijn: I see, thank you :)
14:09:40	<surobaki>	lortabac: Good to know
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14:12:27	<merijn>	Yeah, you can do some hacky workarounds mapping both cases to a single case and operating on that. But nothing generic like "this is commutative"
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15:03:07	<maerwald>	what can inhibit list fusion?
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15:03:54	<c_wraith>	sharing, not using functions that fuse, or a lack of inlining
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15:17:05	<c_wraith>	(or interactions between them, like inlining differently causing more or less things to be shared..)
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15:21:46	<maerwald>	context: https://github.com/haskell/bytestring/pull/526
15:22:27	<kuribas>	or using more general functions, like fold, instead of concatMap
15:22:29	<maerwald>	it seems -fexpose-all-unfoldings doesn't work well
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15:26:15	<c_wraith>	that's even called out as an inlining issue
15:26:27	<c_wraith>	remember, list fusion is implemented as RULES
15:26:35	<c_wraith>	and RULES very specifically match syntax
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15:27:11	<c_wraith>	If your code doesn't inline to an application of foldr to the result of a call to build, list fusion won't happen
15:27:53	<maerwald>	c_wraith: what do you mean with "that's even called out as an inlining issue"?
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15:28:34	<c_wraith>	hasufell's comment from 7 minutes ago says that adding an INLINE pragma fixes it...
15:28:51	<maerwald>	yeah, that's me :D
15:28:59	<c_wraith>	well that's confusing! :P
15:29:23	<maerwald>	the idea was that -fexpose-all-unfoldings makes INLINE pragmas obsolete
15:29:30	<maerwald>	apparently it doesn't
15:29:39	<c_wraith>	sadly, nothing has made INLINE pragmas obsolete yet
15:29:52	<maerwald>	unpack not fusing is a pretty huge bug imo
15:31:11	<maerwald>	c_wraith: what's more confusing is that the old strict foldr' version is faster
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15:31:48	<c_wraith>	for a strict foldr' with bytestring, don't you benefit from actually traversing it in reverse?
15:32:09	<maerwald>	hmm... so the old version is strict in chunks of 100 bytes
15:32:22	<maerwald>	(the old unpack, that is)
15:32:42	<maerwald>	the new unpack dropped this strategy (because it makes no sense for ShortByteString) and then strict foldr' got a lot slower
15:33:40	<maerwald>	which seems confusing if it has to traverse the entire thing anyway
15:34:00	<dolio>	It's hard to tell from the doc, but -fexpose-all-unfoldings doesn't sound like it'd replace INLINE, because the latter tells GHC to actually inline the function, regardless of what it thinks.
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15:34:43	<maerwald>	ah, so it makes INLINEABLE obsolete, but not INLINE
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15:35:21	<dolio>	I mean, it's only obsolete if you want everything in your entire file to be inlineable, assuming there isn't some other discrepancy.
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15:36:30	<dolio>	Inlineable has some other effects that I'm not sure are tied to the unfolding being available.
15:36:44	<dolio>	But perhaps they are.
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15:44:25	<maerwald>	c_wraith: is it possible that the GC slows it down? So traversing is faster without chunks of strictness, but there are more allocations... when it bounces back, then maybe there's GC pressure?
15:50:12	<c_wraith>	for which function?
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15:53:24	<c_wraith>	like... your foldr' implementation in the comment from an hour ago probably should be the version implied by the TODO
15:54:23	<c_wraith>	(also, that bang pattern on n does nothing at all. But GHC should notice that and optimize it out, instead of having it slow anything down.)
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15:54:39	<maerwald>	c_wraith: https://gist.github.com/hasufell/c9614df236bf0a0a78ecf45d52df08b8
15:54:58	<maerwald>	the confusion is not about the manual implementation of foldr'
15:55:41	<c_wraith>	ok
15:55:45	<maerwald>	here, old is faster than new
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15:56:03	<maerwald>	although the old unpack is slower when traversing
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15:56:26	<maerwald>	so either it's an optimization quirk, or something with GC
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15:56:41	<carbolymer>	how do I make typechecker happy here with this Monoid instance https://ideone.com/eztMdO ?
15:57:07	<c_wraith>	wait, so what case is old faster in?
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15:57:56	<moonsheep>	Is it possible to build GHC for armv6l? Or at least crosscompile for it?
15:58:39	<maerwald>	c_wraith: S.foldr' (\x acc -> fromIntegral x + acc) (0 :: Int)) s (map (\k -> S.pack $ if k <= 6 then take (2 ^ k) [32..95] else concat (replicate (2 ^ (k - 6)) [32..95])) [0..16])
15:59:19	<maerwald>	so the inner function is just (+)
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16:01:20	<c_wraith>	oh, and the call to unpack is inside S.foldr' ?
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16:01:29	<maerwald>	yeah
16:01:49	<maerwald>	foldr' k v = Foldable.foldr' k v . unpack
16:02:24	<c_wraith>	huh, I'd really expect foldr' to perform horribly on lists in every case...
16:03:52	<c_wraith>	which makes going via list a really weird choice.
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16:05:23	<maerwald>	yeah, but that's not the question... I want to know why a faster unpack can degrade performance for a strict foldr
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16:10:42	<c_wraith>	ok. step 1 is that [] seems to use the default implementation of foldr', which is.. in terms of foldl? oh no, this is going very bad already
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16:14:17	<c_wraith>	hmm. Ok, whatever, it's calling the same function on both versions. Are you sure this is a fusion issue? Just looking at the code, I'd question the user of unsafeIndex vs indexWord8Array
16:14:26	<c_wraith>	*use of
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16:15:21	<c_wraith>	mostly because I have no clue how unsafeIndex is implemented
16:16:34	<c_wraith>	Ok, nevermind. those are the same thing.
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16:18:42	<c_wraith>	still.. I'm curious if fusion is the real culprit.
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16:20:42	<c_wraith>	If it is, I'm suspicious of the interaction between map and enumFromTo there
16:21:20	<c_wraith>	I wonder if things can inline such that RULES get applied in the "wrong" order and an opportunity for fusion is lost...
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16:30:00	<maerwald>	c_wraith: no, I don't think this has to do anything with fusion
16:30:10	<maerwald>	fusion is only relevant for lazy foldr
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16:32:37	<maerwald>	what I'm thinking is that maybe the old version with the chunks advances to the end of the list, then when the first strict function application happens, it evaluates 100 elements strictly (indexWord8Array), then bounces back in chunks of 100... so maybe that's less thunks?
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16:39:24	<maerwald>	unpackAppendBytesStrict sbs off sz remainder where remainder = go (off+sz) (len-sz) ws
16:39:29	<maerwald>	this recurses like a foldr...
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16:41:00	<c_wraith>	unpackAppendBytesLazy traverses front to back. unpackAppendBytesStrict traverses back to front.
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16:42:11	<c_wraith>	the net result is that it's going to have a lazy tail of the list with 100 Word8s from the bytestring ahead of it.
16:42:39	<maerwald>	yeah, so globally, it evaluates the list right to left in chunks of 100
16:43:24	<maerwald>	which seems beneficial for a strict foldr', which also kinda goes that direction
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16:43:56	<c_wraith>	a strict foldr' should be written to work only from back to front when possible, to minimize stack use
16:46:20	<c_wraith>	the performance you've described only makes sense if the cost of thunks is high
16:46:54	<c_wraith>	and if unpackAppendBytesStrict only puts one thunk into the list per 100 entries
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16:47:55	<c_wraith>	well, only one unevaluated thunk.
16:48:08	<c_wraith>	Which is... actually quite plausible, given that (:) is a constructor.
16:49:12	<c_wraith>	the new version should actually be friendlier to GC. though chunks of 100 aren't a big deal anyway.
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16:50:06	<maerwald>	well, let's hope people don't actually use foldr' lol
16:50:23	<c_wraith>	foldr' should have a different implementation anyway
16:50:40	<c_wraith>	it definitely shouldn't be going through [], that's just wasting stack space
16:51:21	<c_wraith>	even if that isn't a problem for ShortByteString, it's still just backwards. the strictness should allow using less stack!
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17:11:39	<Haskelytic>	Does the `join` implementation for a monad `m` necessarily induce a monoid for `m a`?
17:11:58	<Haskelytic>	or am I way off base here
17:11:59	<dolio>	Yes.
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17:13:06	<Haskelytic>	dolio: I see. Is that the "monoid" in the "monad is a monoid is the category of endofunctors"
17:13:12	<c_wraith>	err. well. sort of. it necessarily means m is a monoid.
17:13:17	<c_wraith>	but that's not m a
17:13:32	<c_wraith>	and yes, it's that monoid
17:13:43	<Haskelytic>	Hm...I seem to have internalized the idea that a monoid is necesarily a type constant
17:14:06	<Haskelytic>	as in, you can say `m a` is a monoid for all a
17:14:13	<dolio>	Oh wait. It's only a monoid if a is a monoid.
17:14:41	<Haskelytic>	where `m` has kind `* -> *`
17:14:47	<c_wraith>	the Monoid in the category of endofunctors thing is M x M -> M
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17:14:57	<c_wraith>	Which is exactly what join is an implementation of
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17:15:06	<c_wraith>	But it's not exactly haskell
17:15:10	<Haskelytic>	dolio: what about list w.resp to append? it doesn't need the list members `a` to be monoid
17:15:37	<dolio>	That uses other structure on lists.
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17:15:55	<c_wraith>	In Haskell, you can't type about functors as arguments to ->
17:16:06	<c_wraith>	so you end up with M (M a) -> M a
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17:16:14	<c_wraith>	instead of M x M -> M
17:17:03	<c_wraith>	But that is what "monoid in the category of endofunctors" means
17:17:09	<Haskelytic>	Ah, I see. So if I squint there really hard I can see the implicit M x M
17:17:14	<c_wraith>	yeah
17:18:04	<c_wraith>	as always, category theory is much more general than the tiny bits of it realized in Haskell code. :)
17:19:37	<Haskelytic>	Haha yeah I'm starting to notice that now
17:19:39	<Haskelytic>	Thanks fellas!
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17:20:42	<dolio>	Note that every type with a decidable value (like, you can tell if any other value is or is not equal to the particular value) can be given a monoid structure.
17:21:37	<dolio>	By using the distinguished value as a unit, and otherwise taking the first non-unit value.
17:21:44	<c_wraith>	Or the last!
17:21:48	<dolio>	Yeah.
17:21:58	<c_wraith>	or... the middlest? wait, no. that probably doesn't work. :)
17:22:32	<c_wraith>	(middleness is not associative!)
17:22:37	<dolio>	Right.
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17:23:47	<Haskelytic>	dolio: Oh wow I never thought of it that way :)
17:24:25	<dolio>	You can relax that to having a semigroup on every type, just by taking the first/last, and you can make that a monoid by adding a distinguished value with Maybe.
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17:30:38	<dolio>	Anyhow, one common observation is that this means `m ()` is a monoid for any monad m.
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17:54:07	<dolio>	Also, you might think that every type has a distinguished value, ⊥, but you cannot make the first/last monoid with ⊥ as the unit.
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18:03:15	<edinwood>	do linear types include linear functions?
18:03:41	<edinwood>	since my functions have parameters supplied in a shaped thing, they are only used "in that position" if that makes sense
18:03:52	<edinwood>	ie, one function per params in the container
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18:04:16	<edinwood>	i guess you could think of it as applicative zipWith
18:04:29	<edinwood>	so, in that case, all those functions are only run once
18:04:36	<edinwood>	can we use linear types to say that?
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18:04:54	<dminuoso>	Mmm I forgot. How were uniqueness types like in Clean dual to linear types as they are in Haskell again?
18:05:14	<edinwood>	idk Clean sry
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18:05:47	<edinwood>	linear types just have an annotation on the arguments to the arrow saying if this input is "consumed"
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18:06:04	<edinwood>	and strictly destroyed upon its first use
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18:07:18	<edinwood>	or was this uniquesness question trying to comunicate more than just whats a linear type?
18:07:36	<edinwood>	like, is the duality you mention of any relavence here in particular?
18:07:39	<dminuoso>	No, Im just trying to remember a previous discussion.
18:07:45	<edinwood>	fair
18:08:04	<dminuoso>	I do not have logs any longer. @tomsmeding any chance I can get hold of ircbrowse logs for #haskell?
18:08:23	<edinwood>	sure there still at tunes?
18:08:25	<dminuoso>	The old site exposed them via simple http file browser
18:08:35	<dminuoso>	Nope, not any longer
18:08:40	<edinwood>	we lost all the logs! god damn freenode
18:08:51	<dminuoso>	Nothing to do with freenode
18:08:55	<edinwood>	sure enough pppl had snapshots
18:09:27	<edinwood>	dminuoso, changing the access from freenode to libera will have knocked off a load of trackers
18:09:50	<edinwood>	i dont understand whats going on atall
18:10:13	<edinwood>	some kind of moral panic, idk, the dork web took over or something?
18:10:30	<geekosaur[m]>	Tunes died before freenode
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18:10:44	<edinwood>	forshaddowing
18:11:13	<edinwood>	something weird was happening with haskell ecosystem forward facing something
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18:11:33	<geekosaur[m]>	And I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth about Andrew Lee
18:11:34	<edinwood>	maybe ructions as it reaches critical mass
18:11:44	<edinwood>	lol, the ** is andrew lee?
18:12:10	<geekosaur[m]>	The whackjob that took over freenode
18:12:33	<dminuoso>	geekosaur[m]: Based on some recent evidence, I think he may have either lost control of freenode, sold it, or lost interest completely
18:12:49	<geekosaur[m]>	Ah
18:13:01	<edinwood>	not just some grand reset shakeup
18:13:35	<edinwood>	i like how your actual explanations seem less likely
18:13:58	<dolio>	dminuoso: x is unique if it hasn't been shared yet. x is affine if it may not be further shared (but it's possible it's already shared).
18:14:03	<edinwood>	i think i can use linear types at a constructor to a list of functions anyway maybe
18:14:06	<geekosaur[m]>	First a big reset then a bad reddit clone then something else then back to irc
18:14:50	<edinwood>	nope, the past was where the future was at, now we have to live through its crumbling as its design is played in reverse
18:15:20	<dolio>	Linear includes a condition on necessary use that doesn't enter in to uniqueness, really.
18:15:33	<dminuoso>	dolio: Oh I see. So with linear types you couldn't know its previous history. Is there a mechanism to turn non-linear things into linear things then?
18:15:56	<dolio>	Yeah, you can pass non-linear values to linear functions, I think.
18:15:57	<edinwood>	you have to
18:16:11	<edinwood>	it means you load them up at some concrete copying stage
18:16:30	<edinwood>	having that clear in the program graph can be helpful to the compiler during optimisation i presume
18:17:00	<edinwood>	have to "to turn non-linear things into linear things then"
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18:17:11	<dminuoso>	dolio: So I guess similarly, a unique thing may be shared in the future.
18:17:23	<edinwood>	dolio: that sounds wrong
18:17:35	<edinwood>	and what do you mean by linear function?
18:17:54	<edinwood>	if you mean an arrow that specifies the input argument is linear, no you cant supply something nonlinear
18:18:22	<dolio>	Yeah, if you share a unique thing it becomes non-unique. Although I don't exactly know how the checker operated.
18:18:28	<edinwood>	what i want is that a function is used only once, and im not sure if i can express that
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18:18:50	<edinwood>	i guess it just is suppled as a linear type, but i didnt know if functions are still first class citizens in this case
18:19:16	<edinwood>	and basically, the partial application of a function, even that takes nonlinear type in its first arg, should produce then a "linear function"
18:19:36	<dolio>	edinwood: f :: A -o B means that f uses its argument exactly once. There's no problem with providing it a value that needn't be used exactly once.
18:19:38	<edinwood>	unless it somehow intrinsically copys the parameters for its reuse or something
18:19:56	<edinwood>	so A is a linear type
18:20:05	<edinwood>	in not sure you should say f is a linear function
18:20:10	<dminuoso>	dolio: Would that imply that if you had uniqueness and affine types for sharing at the same time, you could identify the largest possible region in which mutation was safe to do?
18:20:55	<edinwood>	so if i have a list with linear cons...
18:21:03	<dminuoso>	That is, a region in which all operations on that value can be expressed as mutation
18:21:04	<edinwood>	then i have a bunch of linear values
18:21:21	<edinwood>	now if i map any function over them, they would hide the linearity
18:21:49	<edinwood>	i get a nonlinear value as a result!
18:21:51	<dolio>	dminuoso: I'm not sure about that. :)
18:22:22	<edinwood>	how am i supposed to do a partial application which doesnt ruin the linearity of the undelying first argument, by allowing a function which has it partially applied to be reused
18:22:43	<edinwood>	seems like its copying it under the hood
18:23:19	<edinwood>	and i wanted to be able to say this wasnt possible, to avoid a branching computation specified on one of the intermediate value types or inputs
18:23:50	<edinwood>	"i have given you a linear value, you will do no copy branching in the program graph after this"
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18:31:11	<edinwood>	ok, this doesnt work because the linear types thing we have is just linearity on inputs
18:31:26	<edinwood>	i was wondering how you could insist the return type was linear also
18:31:38	<edinwood>	i think you can return a linear continuation
18:31:55	<edinwood>	and then what i want is some kind of free extension of this
18:32:28	<edinwood>	so it returns a linear continuation that returns a linear continuation and so on
18:32:42	<edinwood>	thereby insisting the rest of the program graph is a line
18:33:04	<edinwood>	idk how you would write the free linear continuation though
18:33:17	<edinwood>	can anyone easily terll how that would be written?
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18:35:57	<edinwood>	right, so my problem with not being able to express a "linear function", was to do with this lack of support for outputing linear values?
18:36:29	<dolio>	Yeah. My understanding is that you need to write in continuation passing style for that.
18:36:32	<edinwood>	and if you want to say that you have to use a free linear continuation!?
18:36:50	<dolio>	Which seems a bit annoying.
18:36:53	<edinwood>	its hellish!
18:37:39	<troydm>	quick dumb question, I have [IO ()] how can I turn it into IO (), e.g run all IO monads in a list
18:37:46	<troydm>	forgot it :(
18:37:46	<edinwood>	but allows to say; "consuming this value makes you linear, making that value ... like, more linear"
18:37:56	<dminuoso>	troydm: Use `sequence_`
18:38:03	<troydm>	dminuoso: thx
18:38:11	<dminuoso>	troydm: Also, chances are the spot you produced it in should have used traverse_ or for_ instead
18:38:43	<dminuoso>	`sequence/sequence_` is usually an indicator for this. :)
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18:39:28	<troydm>	dminuoso: worked, thx
18:39:41	<edinwood>	hmm, if you want to have a function you only use once that does not output a more-linear value, then you dont need to use the free continuation
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18:40:35	<edinwood>	so what i want to say is "consumption of the linear value by partial application results in a function which can only be used one"
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18:42:48	<edinwood>	partiallyApplyLinearly :: (p -o a -o b) -> p -o (a -o b)
18:42:51	<edinwood>	does not do this
18:43:11	<edinwood>	the resulting function (a -o b) can be reused
18:43:32	<edinwood>	duplicating p under the hood, which it is desired to forbid
18:43:58	<edinwood>	how do i do this continuation thing?
18:44:17	<edinwood>	its because its a "linear continuation" so its first arg is linear
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18:45:00	<edinwood>	i forget what continuations look like; ((a -> x) -> x) is a continuation on `a' right?
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18:45:58	<edinwood>	looks like i should return; (((a -o b) -> x) -o x)
18:46:02	<edinwood>	does that seem right?
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18:46:46	<edinwood>	argh, but there is nothing stopping this being copied!
18:46:57	<edinwood>	so it looks like you might need the free thing afterall
18:47:13	<edinwood>	im lost at this point
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18:48:38	<edinwood>	all i can do is require another function which consumes that linearly
18:48:54	<edinwood>	cant see how to handle this free extension
18:49:56	<edinwood>	it doesnt seem like i can do anything else except keep asking for more linear functions to consume the outputs
18:50:19	<edinwood>	i wonder if actually what i need is a good way to express that
18:50:57	<edinwood>	more functions to consume the outputs linearly*
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18:52:31	<edinwood>	its just a typed list with tied neighbouring types, of linear functions
18:52:50	<edinwood>	functions specifying linear arguments*
18:53:58	<edinwood>	this is kinda clunky, the free extension sounds nicer because you could pass it around, maybe you could make one that uses this list
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18:56:09	<edinwood>	partially applied constructor (of a list with a linear constructor)?
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19:00:41	<edinwood>	"i will consume the value linearly, and the argument (tail) i require to return, is of functions that will consume this value subsequently, in the same linear way"
19:01:06	<edinwood>	the linear constructor of a linear dotlist
19:01:19	<edinwood>	(a dot-list of linear functions)
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19:02:47	<edinwood>	so wrapped in the partially applied linear constructor of the "linear-dot linear-list", all the functions consume the subsequently resulting values linearly
19:02:51	<edinwood>	whew
19:03:05	<edinwood>	no continuations
19:04:01	<edinwood>	so if i return a value wrapped in the partially applied linear constructor, the only way to retrive it is to provide the tail
19:05:54	<edinwood>	you could have a continuation where you supply this tail (which should be a datatype which stores the output at the "last" constructor (instead of an empty basecase)
19:06:45	<edinwood>	(Tail moreTypeData o -> o)
19:07:44	<edinwood>	not sure where the value wrapped in the partially appled constructor goes
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19:11:43	<edinwood>	instead of (a -o b), its `a -o (Tail b xs o -o o)'
19:11:52	<edinwood>	does this seem alright result?
19:12:48	<edinwood>	it returns the type of the partially applied constructor by the looks of it
19:13:05	<edinwood>	encouraging you to do so, thereby consuming the value linearly!
19:13:49	<edinwood>	oh, this is literally the type of the constructor
19:13:53	<edinwood>	duh
19:15:14	<edinwood>	or would that be; (a -o b) -o (Tail b xs o -o o)
19:15:37	<edinwood>	im not sure why it evaluates the tail, some confusion with the continuation, i have no idea what im doing and so will stop
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21:49:41	<shapr>	Do any of the db libraries make it easy to generate a bunch of test data that follows the db schema?
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All times are in UTC on 2022-07-04.