Logs on 2022-07-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:04:55 | <Axman6> | shapr: none that i know of but if you have data types which represent each table's rows, you should be able to use plenty of other libraries. We have a thing at work which does something similar, and maintains state for things like the ID's generated for one type so they can then be randomly selected from data which references that type |
| 00:05:26 | <Axman6> | would be really cool to have a general library for that, where you can specify constraints and connections between types |
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| 00:08:01 | <shapr> | I asked around and heard about https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fakedata and fakedata-quickcheck and hedgehog-fakedata |
| 00:10:19 | <jackdk> | Axman6: you sort of get that effect if you use property-based state machine testing to manipulate your system, because actions can have preconditions like "view user needs a user to exist in the DB" |
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| 00:27:39 | <Axman6> | yeah I had a feeling you might |
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| 00:42:13 | <edinwood> | is there a way to modify one value and have this change another value? |
| 00:42:31 | <edinwood> | ie x = 1, (y,z) = ((x,1),(x,2)) |
| 00:42:35 | <Axman6> | you can't modify values |
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| 00:43:19 | <edinwood> | y === (x+1,1) implies that z will also have changed to (x+1,2) |
| 00:43:33 | <edinwood> | could this be done with MVars? |
| 00:43:41 | <dibblego> | did you try it yet? |
| 00:43:49 | <edinwood> | i never used mvars before |
| 00:44:04 | <dibblego> | try typing code into a text editor |
| 00:44:32 | <edinwood> | iv been writing code solidly for many hours |
| 00:44:41 | <dibblego> | did it work? |
| 00:45:00 | <edinwood> | i hit a snag cos i dont know mvars and i think the easyest way to solve the issue is to use them |
| 00:45:10 | <dibblego> | show the snag in the pastebin |
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| 00:45:33 | <edinwood> | one thing is getting changed in a graph, and its supposed to also be being read somewhere else, its a mess |
| 00:45:38 | <dibblego> | show the snag in the pastebin |
| 00:45:44 | <edinwood> | dibblego: its quite heavily modularised |
| 00:45:47 | <dibblego> | show the snag in the pastebin |
| 00:45:52 | <edinwood> | u ok? |
| 00:46:19 | <edinwood> | rrr, ok, ill put it all in one module, but it will not be easy to read |
| 00:46:25 | <dibblego> | can't wait |
| 00:46:30 | <edinwood> | :-D |
| 00:46:49 | <Axman6> | maybe try writing a small example instead |
| 00:46:57 | <Axman6> | because I don't understand what you're asking |
| 00:47:14 | <edinwood> | hmm, yes, that might waste less of my life |
| 00:47:22 | <Axman6> | it does feel somewhat related to propagators |
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| 00:48:17 | <edinwood> | so i take a list of "scanners" which are pairs of observation and transfer functions. basically just unzipping everything into a list of transfer functions and a list of observation functions |
| 00:48:42 | <edinwood> | i want to update the states seperately to where the outputs occur |
| 00:48:43 | <Axman6> | give us types, we understand types |
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| 00:48:51 | <edinwood> | :t mapAccumL |
| 00:48:52 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
| 00:49:15 | <edinwood> | (a,a->b->a,a->b->c) is my scanner type |
| 00:49:21 | <Axman6> | what are "observations", what are "transfer functions" - I'm sure those have types |
| 00:49:36 | <edinwood> | thats (state,transfer,observer) respecively |
| 00:49:54 | <edinwood> | so after having unzipped a list of these |
| 00:50:05 | <Axman6> | it's no use trying to explain your problem in your own internal domain specific language if we don't know what that domain is |
| 00:50:07 | <Axman6> | great, thanks |
| 00:50:46 | <edinwood> | hmm, ok, well at this point see how the state is being used in 2 places, and the use cases have been seperated and can be sent off to different parts of the program |
| 00:51:08 | <dibblego> | show the snag in the pastebin |
| 00:51:29 | <edinwood> | ill make a github itl be easyer |
| 00:51:33 | <edinwood> | (for me!) |
| 00:51:36 | <dibblego> | can't wait |
| 00:51:38 | <Axman6> | go nuts |
| 00:52:35 | <edinwood> | i think it should be a good case for mvars maybe, and if i can use them under the hood to some great effect i will be quite pleased |
| 00:52:55 | <edinwood> | otherwise i will have messed up by seperating the update and read sites |
| 00:53:11 | <Axman6> | it definitely sounds to me more like a good use for STM - if you want to do more than set a single variable transactionally, that's exactly what that's for |
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| 01:01:36 | <edinwood> | see how much code there is!? |
| 01:01:37 | <edinwood> | https://github.com/edinwood/Sparkplug |
| 01:02:11 | <edinwood> | hmm, it seems to have rejected the .ghci file during the git upload |
| 01:02:17 | <edinwood> | :set -i../ |
| 01:06:27 | <edinwood> | so heres where the data from the list of scanners ends up after its decoupled; |
| 01:06:28 | <edinwood> | https://github.com/edinwood/Sparkplug/blob/main/Language/Scanner.hs#L59 |
| 01:07:30 | <edinwood> | this line turns the scanners into mimo systems, and transposes it using the disentangle function; |
| 01:07:31 | <edinwood> | https://github.com/edinwood/Sparkplug/blob/main/Language/Scanner.hs#L49 |
| 01:08:22 | <edinwood> | its quite complicated doing it this way, but it generalises to when theres more than just 2 things in the mimo system |
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| 01:08:51 | <edinwood> | (a->b->a,a->b->c) === [a,b] ->> [a,c] |
| 01:10:01 | <edinwood> | it basically just consumes the list of mimo systems one at a time seperating out the constituent miso systems into their own growing lists in a big unzip style opperation |
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| 01:10:45 | <edinwood> | now all the functions end up miles away from each other, and one of them updates what the other one is supposed to read |
| 01:11:09 | <edinwood> | this is about as much as i can say to motivate my requirement for some kind of shared memory |
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| 01:14:33 | <edinwood> | ah, ok, there is one extra important point |
| 01:14:58 | <edinwood> | the problem is that the inputs that are suppled during the observations are resulting from other observations |
| 01:15:09 | <edinwood> | so there is no way to provide those to the transfers |
| 01:15:24 | <edinwood> | unless passing them somehow all the way to wherever they ended up |
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| 01:15:33 | <edinwood> | id rather create the STM style tunnel |
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| 01:18:03 | <edinwood> | at least, i think so... |
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| 01:23:07 | <edinwood> | the difference between transfers and observations being that while observations can be used as inputs, transfers outputs are all used at the next itteration |
| 01:23:16 | <edinwood> | ie there is no feedback in this orthogonal direction |
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| 01:23:41 | <edinwood> | the user must specify a graph to hold the outputs from observations being used as inputs, in a program |
| 01:24:06 | <edinwood> | but the transfers all just go from left to right, and the user should not have to wory about them while specifying the graph used per itteration |
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| 01:24:31 | <edinwood> | the update to the states by the trasfers can hold the states in a list, not in the graph shaped program |
| 01:25:06 | <edinwood> | so i want to go round the graph, egnerating outputs, and when they are used as inputs, passing them via an MVar to wherever the transfer function requires it |
| 01:25:24 | <edinwood> | the inputs are generated on a graph, but are used elsewhere in a tail recursive update |
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| 01:34:29 | <edinwood> | is anyone still online? |
| 01:35:14 | <edinwood> | i think basically what i need is 2 functions taking 2 arguments, where if one is partially applied to its first argument somewhere, then so is the other one |
| 01:38:16 | <edinwood> | magicalTransformation (f :: a -> b,g :: a -> c) , returning (f':: special a ->>> b,g' :: c ) |
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| 01:39:29 | <edinwood> | i guess they all have to be in some monad... |
| 01:43:13 | <edinwood> | maybe like (f':: a -> (Shared True a => b),g' :: Shared True a => c ) |
| 01:43:26 | <dibblego> | mate, please stop filling the channel with your inner thoughts |
| 01:43:40 | <edinwood> | can you help? # |
| 01:43:47 | <dibblego> | did you follow the advice above? |
| 01:43:56 | <dibblego> | assuming not, then no, nobody can help |
| 01:44:07 | <edinwood> | yes, i pasted my use case in github |
| 01:44:35 | <edinwood> | and im trying to think of a least suffient example that would do what i need it to |
| 01:44:44 | <dibblego> | <Axman6> it definitely sounds to me more like a good use for STM - if you want to do more than set a single variable transactionally, that's exactly what that's for |
| 01:45:17 | <edinwood> | i dont know how to use that, i was wondering if someone could help write a small code snippet similar to what im trying to describe |
| 01:47:28 | <edinwood> | its because i dont know how to use STM in haskell, but think i have a use case for it, which Axeman6 confirms, that i was trying to think of a small thing i could expand upon which would eventually do what i need it to in the program |
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| 01:47:53 | <Lears> | Imo, you should set aside the particulars of what you're trying to do, and just play with IORef/MVar/STM on the most basic level. Then once you understand a bit about them, you'll see how to apply them to your problem. |
| 01:48:06 | <Lears> | The first two, in particular, have quite simple interfaces. |
| 01:48:10 | <dibblego> | I was also born not knowing how to use STM in Haskell, but what did I do next? |
| 01:48:25 | <edinwood> | went to where people that knew how to could show you |
| 01:48:36 | <dibblego> | nup |
| 01:48:49 | <Lears> | You'll understand them much faster just by doing something with them than you will by asking here. |
| 01:48:54 | <edinwood> | utfse? |
| 01:49:20 | <edinwood> | in the past people have provided code to help demonstrate |
| 01:50:00 | <edinwood> | depending on how well i can describe it before knowing how to use it, i might even get a very helpful example |
| 01:50:03 | <Lears> | You shouldn't rely on that---it isn't sustainable. How hard is it to look at some haddocks? |
| 01:50:33 | <edinwood> | honestly, iv used it in the past, but im not sure how i can phrase what im trying to |
| 01:51:21 | <edinwood> | if i can rwite to a variable in one place and read from it in another, i should be good to go |
| 01:51:43 | <Lears> | Yes, so read the docs for, say, Data.IORef and do that. |
| 01:52:18 | <edinwood> | if i do so, i may take significant time to even determine if what im trying to express is doable, or based on misconception |
| 01:53:00 | <edinwood> | which is why i wrote what i thought i needed incase anyone could asses its viability, or implement something that *actually* expresses what im trying to |
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| 02:01:44 | <lally> | Does anyone use rules_haskell (bazel)? |
| 02:05:12 | <arahael> | edinwood: Perhaps *you* need to assess the viability, and if not viable, perhaps show a code example in the pastebin and explain what you want different? |
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| 02:10:04 | <edinwood> | im trying! |
| 02:10:12 | <edinwood> | i have no idea how to write in this style |
| 02:10:29 | <edinwood> | i cant write what im trying to at all, its total giberish |
| 02:15:07 | <edinwood> | % :t modifyIORef |
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| 02:17:24 | <edinwood> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ZjlR2jdJ |
| 02:19:35 | <jackdk> | lally: https://dontasktoask.com/ - what are you trying to do with rules_haskell (bazel)? |
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| 02:50:39 | <edinwood> | ok, like, its a totally different idiom |
| 02:51:02 | <edinwood> | my haskell mind fails to comrehend this style |
| 02:51:03 | <edinwood> | its more like object oriented or something |
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| 02:51:14 | <edinwood> | which is really why im askeing for help from people that arent me |
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| 02:52:17 | <edinwood> | i think iv described as best i can, and have read the docs and completed a small code snippet as advised |
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| 02:53:12 | <edinwood> | i even made an example with unsafePerformIO which it seems to interact well with |
| 02:54:07 | <edinwood> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/OOSh68wT |
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| 02:56:46 | <EvanR> | unsafePerformIO? seems suspicious |
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| 03:25:47 | <arahael> | edmundnoble: Why are you using unsafePerformIO there? there's no reason to. |
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| 03:40:28 | <Axman6> | @where pacph |
| 03:40:28 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about pacph. |
| 03:40:32 | <Axman6> | @where pcph |
| 03:40:32 | <lambdabot> | "Parallel and Concurrent Programming in Haskell" by Simon Marlow in 2013 at <http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/pcph/>,<http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1230000000929/>,<https://web.archive. |
| 03:40:32 | <lambdabot> | org/web/20180117194842/http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1230000000929>,<https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/> |
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| 04:00:47 | <dragestil> | does anyone know when using cabal what causes stuff in base to be resolved to Distribution.Compat.Prelude.Internal? |
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| 04:01:53 | <dragestil> | e.g. run `cabal haddock`, examine the generated html, String links to Distribution.Compat.Prelude.Internal.String |
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| 08:45:03 | <junjie_wu> | hello there |
| 08:46:12 | <junjie_wu> | @pl \f g x y -> f (x ++ g x) (g y) |
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| 08:46:13 | <lambdabot> | join . ((flip . ((.) .)) .) . (. ap (++)) . (.) |
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| 16:11:31 | slac61776 | is now known as slack1256 |
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| 19:32:56 | jinsun__ | is now known as jinsun |
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| 19:33:20 | jinsun | is now known as Guest2425 |
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| 19:58:08 | <yin> | when was LexicalNegation introduced? |
| 20:00:16 | <yin> | 9.0.1 it seems |
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| 20:00:24 | <yushyin> | yup |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-07-05.