Logs on 2022-07-07 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:06:22 | <unit73e> | hey. so I was reading this: https://keid.haskell-game.dev/Introduction/Why.html |
| 00:06:33 | <unit73e> | sums up haskell game engine situation nicely |
| 00:09:04 | <unit73e> | hopefuly it's not going to be another pipedream project |
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| 00:58:35 | <Axman6> | o/ |
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| 02:13:05 | <Axman6> | @pl ifHasIngressType a s x = guard (Set.member a s) >> [x] |
| 02:13:06 | <lambdabot> | ifHasIngressType = flip flip return . (((.) . (>>) . guard) .) . Set.member |
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| 03:02:52 | <shapr> | @quote Axman6 |
| 03:02:53 | <lambdabot> | Axman6 says: Haskell is easy, you just apply functions to arguments, and then you apply them to other arguments. Axman6's girlfriend: I don't like conflict |
| 03:02:57 | <shapr> | heh |
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| 03:05:31 | <EvanR> | now I suspect the jargon for arguments comes from old logic |
| 03:05:47 | <EvanR> | like 1800s |
| 03:06:16 | <EvanR> | what were those guys on |
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| 04:00:28 | <Axman6> | Didn;t even know that was in there. I'm famous! |
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| 04:24:18 | <jackdk> | Axman6, legendary creator of amazonka-s3-streaming :P |
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| 06:43:10 | <Axman6> | jackdk: Perhaps imfamous, given my ignorance that anyone was actually using it... and it turns out it's used in some pretty important stuff |
| 06:43:34 | <jackdk> | Free Software is amazing |
| 06:46:08 | <sm> | +1 |
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| 06:50:31 | <Axman6> | jackdk: what's that meme about everything depending on one dude in Nebraska? |
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| 06:53:16 | <jackdk> | Axman6: https://xkcd.com/2347/ |
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| 07:31:35 | <dminuoso> | Does optparse-applicative have a way of expressing `--mode [on|off|auto]`, such that all argument choices are either printed, or even described? |
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| 07:41:37 | <dminuoso> | Does optparse-applicative have a way of expressing `--mode [on|off|auto]`, such that all argument choices are either printed, or even described? |
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| 07:41:40 | <dminuoso> | Oops, wrong terminal sorry . |
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| 07:45:30 | <Axman6> | hmm, dminuoso the completion stuff feels like it should be doable, but I think that's only used for completion, not help text |
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| 07:46:22 | <dminuoso> | Yeah. Right now Im just doing the naive "auto-generate a help text/error" based on some [(String, a)]. But it would be really nice if the choices would be printed as a kind of table, with annotations what the respective chocies mean |
| 07:46:32 | <dminuoso> | Similarly I could do completion too I guess |
| 07:47:59 | <Axman6> | I guess that's the metavar right? |
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| 07:49:39 | <Axman6> | The description of `multiSuffix` sounds tantelising: "Include a suffix to attach to the metavar when multiple values can be entered." |
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| 08:56:38 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: https://xkcd.com/2347/ |
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| 09:51:15 | <kuribas> | I am using generics to make function work over different sized tuples. |
| 09:51:50 | <kuribas> | It is cumbersome juggling kinds around with newtypes... |
| 09:52:08 | <kuribas> | And due to the lack of quantified constraints the newtypes aren't free. |
| 09:52:43 | <kuribas> | Since I cannot do 'forall a. Coercible (f a) (Newtyped f a) =>' |
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| 09:53:43 | <kuribas> | Perhaps I could make a condition compilation so this would be more efficient in recent compiler which support the Quantified constraints. |
| 09:53:49 | <kuribas> | But still work in older ones. |
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| 10:33:22 | <jackdk> | kuribas: have you looked at the `Field1`, `Field2`, etc classes in `lens`? |
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| 12:08:53 | <kuribas> | well, I need to access all fields, not just one. |
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| 12:09:00 | <kuribas> | But they are polymorphic. |
| 12:09:06 | <kuribas> | for example (t f, t g, t h). |
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| 12:39:19 | <Pickchea> | Hey, I'm looking for an uncompromising formatter (ideally for Emacs) that will map any two except-for-whitespace-equivalent Haskell source code inputs to the same output. In other words, it shall *not* preserve whitespace at all. Any suggestions/preferences? |
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| 13:13:51 | <dminuoso> | Axman6: I think I realized how to achieve my goal. My approach was on the right track, except I need to use helpDoc rather than help. |
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| 13:14:04 | <dminuoso> | Then I can can sort of draw the table of potential values and their descriptions manually |
| 13:15:51 | <geekosaur> | Pickchea, that seems to be the SOTA for formatters, although they consider newline to be whitespace which may not be what you intend. brittany and ormolu are the most commonly used ones |
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| 13:25:32 | <Pickchea> | geekosaur, I actually want the formatter to disrespect my newlines (line breaks). For both brittany and ormolu I know they will try to preserve the user's newlines but I want a formatter that doesn't. That is, I want a formatter where I can put as many newlines (or line breaks) as I want where I want (as long as semantics are preserved) and it will return the same output. |
| 13:26:09 | <geekosaur> | interesting. most of the complaints I hear about them are about inserting or rearranging newlines especially in type signatures |
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| 13:27:23 | <geekosaur> | (more to the point, how/where it inserts them) |
| 13:27:27 | <Pickchea> | geekosaur, I can imagine, most people like it "their way" but I mostly like it "the canonical way" and if there is none, I get nervous ;-) |
| 13:27:42 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure there is a canonical way |
| 13:28:02 | <geekosaur> | this isn't python |
| 13:28:06 | <dminuoso> | It is interesting you would want that. Im a strong opponent of formatters in general, especially such "uncompromising formatters" |
| 13:29:01 | <dminuoso> | Code formatting is a kind of communication between the author and its readers, as such its highly context sensitive - formatting exists to emphasizse on some local contextual things. |
| 13:29:05 | <dminuoso> | What's your use case here? |
| 13:29:13 | <Pickchea> | geekosaur, I was just about to mention "black" for Python :-D |
| 13:29:52 | <dminuoso> | Pickchea: Btw, you can just use haskell-src-exts to parse and pretty print code in a consistent format that completely ignores whitespace |
| 13:30:01 | <geekosaur> | I think the closest we get to canonical is how haddock formats type signatures (but that's what some people hate about ormolu) |
| 13:30:38 | <dminuoso> | I dont subscribe to the notion that "canonical formatting" is a thing. If you let others dictate how your code is formatted, you are not communicating anymore. |
| 13:30:45 | dminuoso | shrugs |
| 13:30:58 | <Pickchea> | dminuoso, I want consistency in my code. Sometimes I make breaks, sometimes not, but I want my code to look consistent and not arbitrarily formatted. |
| 13:32:05 | <dminuoso> | Pickchea: See I dont think that is a useful thing. I format code to emphasize on some fact, which means a case-of can be formatted differently depending on the context. It's tailored to how I want my code to be perceived,. |
| 13:32:58 | <Pickchea> | dminuoso, I do what you're talking about with procedural/imperative languages like C, Java and Python. But honestly for Haskell that hasn't really been too useful for me. |
| 13:35:41 | <Pickchea> | And on a practical note, say I'm writing a long long data declaration in one line. I would like the formatter to then automatically insert breaks and indentations for me. brittany wouldn't do that (but I guess there's a setting for that). |
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| 13:38:25 | <geekosaur> | in any case, I think there are only four formatters: brittany, ormolu, fourmolu, and structured-haskell-mode. the latter is even more opinionated: iirc it won't even let you write differently formatted code |
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| 13:43:06 | <Pickchea> | geekosaur, thanks! I'm currently using hindent and I'm also aware of stylish-haskell, to extend your collection. |
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| 13:43:26 | <geekosaur> | ah |
| 13:43:42 | geekosaur | follows dminuoso, so doesn't pay a whole lot of attention |
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| 13:53:34 | <maerwald> | There are only two things that consistent formatting facilities: 1. authority, 2. OCD. Some claim (maybe it's even true) that it also increases parsing speed. But even if that's true... why would that be more valuable than e.g. the information that *shitty* formatting transports? |
| 13:54:36 | <maerwald> | it shows me: you were confused or didn't pay attention when you wrote the code. So my review will be extra thorough :p |
| 13:55:07 | <maerwald> | while still not caring about formatting |
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| 14:02:59 | <dolio> | It's difficult to believe that anyone's Haskell workflow is significantly affected by changes in parsing speed due to formatting. |
| 14:03:08 | <maerwald> | yeah |
| 14:03:23 | <maerwald> | it's not the bottleneck |
| 14:03:53 | <maerwald> | maybe for edward :p |
| 14:04:08 | <dolio> | Nah, I've seen him code. |
| 14:04:23 | <dolio> | He does stuff like hitting :wq multiple times to save. :) |
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| 14:04:44 | <maerwald> | can never be sure ;) |
| 14:04:59 | <yushyin> | :D |
| 14:05:11 | <kuribas> | geekosaur: and emacs |
| 14:05:54 | <geekosaur> | that was implied by structured-haskell-mode 🙂 |
| 14:06:04 | <kuribas> | geekosaur: no, not that one |
| 14:06:07 | <kuribas> | haskell-mode |
| 14:06:18 | <dolio> | I guess it's not :wq multiple times, just :w. |
| 14:06:20 | <kuribas> | haskell-indentation-mode |
| 14:06:22 | <geekosaur> | granting that the regular haskell mode also does indentation and such for you, but it's more along the lines of suggestion and I override it regularly |
| 14:06:35 | <geekosaur> | maybe someday I'll tweak it to fit my prefs better |
| 14:06:50 | <dminuoso> | I think the "parsing speed" is a red herring, perhaps even just rationalization for being lazy. |
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| 14:07:51 | <geekosaur> | having taken the time to learn how layout works, I don't find much of a difference in parsing speed due to indentation |
| 14:08:02 | <geekosaur> | it's more the contents of the line that matters there |
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| 14:12:27 | <kuribas> | human parsing speed? |
| 14:12:46 | <kuribas> | I find code that is poorly formatted hard to read, for example using very long lines (> 120 chars) |
| 14:12:49 | <geekosaur> | the compiler shouldn't matter eiter way or it's buggy, imo |
| 14:13:39 | <geekosaur> | yes, things like that are problematic, but I find them so even if they're broken and indented; the real fix there is to use let or where to break it into readable fragments |
| 14:13:52 | <geekosaur> | which is beyond the purview of formatters |
| 14:14:28 | <maerwald> | kuribas: I find code hard to read that has too many newlines |
| 14:14:39 | <maerwald> | as if their terminal is 30 chars wide |
| 14:15:12 | <sm> | maerwald++ can I get a witness |
| 14:15:22 | <geekosaur> | that sounds like a python programmer 🙂 |
| 14:15:54 | <maerwald> | sm: https://github.com/lspitzner/brittany/issues/278 |
| 14:15:57 | <sm> | do not want to see every single line to the very end. Want to see overall program. |
| 14:16:02 | <dolio> | Yeah, more of anything is not necessarily better. |
| 14:16:04 | <geekosaur> | but yes, if you're going to use lines that short, [please go back to assembler |
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| 14:16:22 | <dolio> | Parentheses can make things easier to read, but overuse of parentheses becomes hard to understand visually. |
| 14:25:22 | <kuribas> | dolio: lisp wants to have a word with you :) |
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| 14:26:46 | <geekosaur> | all lisp has to do is borrow back interlisp's ] |
| 14:27:11 | <dolio> | I don't think it does. |
| 14:27:19 | <geekosaur> | although ime that makes readability even worse because you don't know how many close parens it's representing when used in a middle of )))]))) |
| 14:27:45 | <geekosaur> | which I've seen |
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| 14:33:55 | <NH000> | can you retrieve data from cabal file for the project in the project's code? e.g. i want to print program's version and i want to get version string from the cabal file, not have it hardcoded in the code itself. if you know how to do that please tell me, ty. |
| 14:35:50 | <geekosaur> | add Paths_<pkgname> to other-modules and autogen-modules, then import it and reference version. https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-package.html?highlight=Paths_pkgname#accessing-the-package-version |
| 14:37:32 | <geekosaur> | (scroll up from that link for more details) |
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| 14:39:42 | <sm> | I'd say it's more robust to hard code it in the program |
| 14:40:08 | <NH000> | thanks |
| 14:40:41 | <NH000> | can i also get executable name in a similar manner? as sometimes you want to generate multiple executables from the same code. |
| 14:40:59 | <sm> | getProgName |
| 14:41:09 | <geekosaur> | executable name can change at runtime (consider symlinks) |
| 14:41:46 | <geekosaur> | historically cp/mv/ln figured out what they were to do by looking at their argv[0], which in C is the executable name |
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| 14:45:28 | <NH000> | thanks, getProgName is exactly what i needed |
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| 16:19:02 | <lechner> | Hi, does anyone have a up-to-date recommendation for a functional front-end within a new project in view of these metrics? https://unsafeperform.io/blog/2022-07-02-a_small_benchmark_for_functional_languages_targeting_web_browsers/ |
| 16:20:00 | <sm> | why not idris2 then ? |
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| 16:20:47 | <lechner> | the results seem extreme, don't they? |
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| 16:21:55 | <sm> | they sound great. Is this your article ? |
| 16:22:36 | <lechner> | no |
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| 17:05:57 | <slack1256> | I got a haskell service running in a docker container. I passed the `-p` options to the RTS; I did compile with profiling though. To stop the haskell service I usually stop the docker container. The `-p` option writes to a `program.prof` file by default. Will that succeed if I stop the docker container? |
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| 17:08:12 | <maerwald> | slack1256: that depends on the signals that are passed |
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| 19:27:36 | <slack1256> | I need the output of the `-p` rts output of a program. But the program is inside of docker, when I kill it, it wipes out that file. What can I do? |
| 19:29:39 | <Rembane> | slack1256: Can you mount the directory where the program puts files? |
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| 19:30:45 | <slack1256> | !!! |
| 19:31:02 | <slack1256> | I did not know you could do that. Can you point me to some docs or tutorial Rembane ? |
| 19:32:03 | <Rembane> | slack1256: This could work, and if it doesn't maybe a bind mount works, there's a link for it in the same doc: https://docs.docker.com/storage/volumes/ |
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| 19:35:20 | <geekosaur> | do you know that file actually gets created? killing docker may kill the program with a signal and the file won't be written |
| 19:35:41 | <geekosaur> | best is to have a way to shut the program down properly and use that before shutting down the container |
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| 20:22:09 | <fockerize> | is Data.ByteString.Char8 and Data.Text comparable? Since both seem to be efficient strings |
| 20:22:21 | <geekosaur> | not |
| 20:22:34 | <geekosaur> | Char8 is an ugly hack that truncates Char to its lower 8 bits |
| 20:22:41 | <geekosaur> | Text is, well, proper utf8 text |
| 20:23:09 | <fockerize> | There is no utf8 for bytestring package right? |
| 20:23:15 | <geekosaur> | basically, Char8 should be avoided unless you know exactly what you're doing |
| 20:23:48 | <fockerize> | I'm working on some hackage package where they use Char8 for strings |
| 20:23:50 | <geekosaur> | nope. there is a decode function in text that takes a ByteString and parses it as utf8, though |
| 20:24:29 | <fockerize> | the zip-archive package |
| 20:24:55 | <Clint> | there's utf8-string, depending on what your question means |
| 20:24:58 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-2.0/docs/Data-Text-Encoding.html#v:decodeUtf8 |
| 20:25:56 | <fockerize> | The archive Entry data structure has a field: eCompressedData :: ByteString I think that's a bad design choice? |
| 20:26:17 | <fockerize> | fromEntry :: Entry -> ByteString |
| 20:26:30 | <fockerize> | anyway I get the point |
| 20:27:08 | <geekosaur> | compressed data should be a ByteString, as it's compressed and the uncompressed format isn't necessarily known anyway |
| 20:27:25 | <fockerize> | that package might not be able to work with utf8 files i guess |
| 20:27:26 | <geekosaur> | uncompressing might or might not yield something better stored in another type |
| 20:27:56 | <geekosaur> | and it's not up to zip-archive to understand what has been stored |
| 20:28:25 | <geekosaur> | if you know it's utf8 data then call decodeUtf8 on it to get a proper Text |
| 20:28:44 | <fockerize> | i see |
| 20:28:53 | <fockerize> | that helps |
| 20:28:58 | <geekosaur> | it's not for a compression utility to know every possible compressed data type it might be used with |
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| 20:31:14 | <fockerize> | anyway to un-import a package from ghci? |
| 20:31:19 | <fockerize> | any way to un-import a package from ghci? |
| 20:31:42 | <slack1256> | :module - Module.to.unimport |
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| 20:42:56 | <slack1256> | Is it possible to redirect the `+RTS -P --RTS` to stderr ? |
| 20:44:08 | <slack1256> | Alternatively, which GHC module lets me manipulate that info at runtime? |
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| 21:23:18 | <jackdk> | Is there a standard templating library that people like to use? I'm writing a tool that needs to instantiate a bunch of templates, and I'm wondering if there's a clear winner in this space. |
| 21:24:38 | <maerwald> | jackdk: like... text files? |
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| 21:25:12 | <jackdk> | maerwald: yeah, but without badly reinventing the "substitute this value here please" bit |
| 21:25:36 | <maerwald> | some people use dhall |
| 21:25:42 | <EvanR> | blaze? xD |
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| 21:29:14 | <carbolymer> | jsonnet |
| 21:30:27 | <jackdk> | maerwald: interesting. we use that where writing yaml sucks. Hadn't considered it for text generation |
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| 21:30:47 | <geekosaur> | slack1256, you may be able to use the eventlog and redirect its output or use bgamari's eventlog-socket thing |
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| 22:06:33 | <slack1256> | geekosaur: If I emit info to the eventlog, can I recover a statistics like the `-p`? |
| 22:11:29 | <geekosaur> | I think you only get raw profiling information and would have to process it yourself |
| 22:12:52 | <slack1256> | Gotcha ;_; |
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| 22:20:01 | <fockerize> | anyone familiar with string-qq? it simply uses (\a -> [|fromString a|]) for quoteExp, to turn a String into Q Exp. How does it work? |
| 22:20:53 | <fockerize> | i did a: runQ $ [|fromString a|] |
| 22:21:12 | <fockerize> | and get : AppE (VarE Data.String.fromString) (UnboundVarE a) |
| 22:24:02 | <geekosaur> | that's basically all it's doing, except that because a is in scope due to the lambda, it uses that instead of UnboundVarE |
| 22:24:50 | <fockerize> | How does this turn a multiline string inside [s| |] into a string? it seems to me that it didn't do anything |
| 22:25:04 | <geekosaur> | [| exp |] just gives you the AST representing the specified Haskell expression, except that it has access to bound variables and you can use splices |
| 22:25:27 | <geekosaur> | most of what's done with that part is done by collecting the stuff inside the [| |] |
| 22:25:33 | <fockerize> | does it use GHC for parsing what's inside [s| |] and turn it into AST? |
| 22:25:36 | <geekosaur> | which becomes a String |
| 22:25:52 | <geekosaur> | which is passed to the lambda as a |
| 22:25:54 | <fockerize> | it didn't do any parsing, the library itself |
| 22:26:13 | <geekosaur> | right, all the parsing is done by the quasiquoter itself |
| 22:27:05 | <geekosaur> | and since that just feeds the function identified by "s" the contents of the quasiquoter as a String, there's nothing to do (except it wraps it in a fromString so it can be used with e.g. a Text) |
| 22:27:10 | <fockerize> | if i want to design a quoter for some new DSL, such as awk, i need to do some parsing. But string-qq didn't do any parsing. |
| 22:27:41 | <geekosaur> | right, your function would need to do parsing in that case. you might want to look at inline-c or some other quasiquoter that actually needs to do work |
| 22:27:42 | <fockerize> | geekosaur: ok... |
| 22:28:47 | <geekosaur> | the only time multiline string quasiquoters need to do anything interesting is if they support some form of templating |
| 22:29:32 | <fockerize> | string-qq doesn't support this |
| 22:29:39 | <fockerize> | no interpolation |
| 22:30:02 | <geekosaur> | there's a few that will do Haskell expressions in braces, like Python f-strings |
| 22:30:15 | <geekosaur> | so try looking for that maybe |
| 22:30:57 | <fockerize> | i actually am trying to learn to use quasiquoter to embed DSL |
| 22:31:12 | <fockerize> | it's super interesting and useful |
| 22:31:22 | <fockerize> | like inline-c |
| 22:33:41 | <dmj`> | fockerize: this is a good blog post on that https://well-typed.com/blog/2014/10/quasi-quoting-dsls/ |
| 22:34:04 | <fockerize> | thx! |
| 22:34:24 | <dmj`> | fockerize: I used that to implement interpolation of variables into graphql queries here https://github.com/dmjio/graphql-meta/blob/master/src/GraphQL/QQ.hs |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-07-07.