Logs on 2022-07-17 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:06:15	<SrPx>	just a little nice thing I did today: https://twitter.com/VictorTaelin/status/1548458824821944322
00:06:23	<SrPx>	Debug.Trace with λ-inspecting capabilities
00:06:53	<qrpnxz>	lovely!
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06:24:42	<nasosev>	any obvious reason why `cabal repl` does not have tab completion for imported modules ?
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06:42:10	<timothy93>	Hi, can someone help me with something? I've made a stream but interleaving them isn't being lazy: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/9HPAOIJN, `Cons a _ = interleaveStreams (streamRepeat 2) undefined` works, but trying to access a gives me the Prelude.undefined exception.
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07:10:08	<c_wraith>	timothy93: you're matching the heads of each stream at the same time. That's stricter than necessary - you could delay matching the head of the second argument until producing the first element.
07:10:15	<tomsmeding>	nasosev: tab completion for what exactly? Should work in my experience
07:11:47	<timothy93>	c_wraith: thanks, this works: `interleaveStreams (Cons a s) t = Cons a (interleaveStreams t s)`
07:12:07	<c_wraith>	that's the usual implementation of that function, yes
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07:14:04	<nasosev>	tomsmeding: for exaple, I have a module named MyModule and a function that s listed in 'exposed-modules' under 'library' in my cabal file. In the repl, typing 'M' then tab, it is not listed
07:14:34	<tomsmeding>	Oh completion for _module names_
07:14:35	<nasosev>	although other stuff from base appears
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07:15:37	<tomsmeding>	Oh ffs my termux cabal doesn't do repl
07:15:56	<[exa]>	nasosev: just checking -- if you type the rest of the module name and binding manually, the name exists, right?
07:16:04	<nasosev>	[exa]: yes
07:16:25	<[exa]>	what ghc version is that? (I'd say it's more of a ghci problem than cabal problem)
07:16:49	<nasosev>	9.2.2
07:18:48	<nasosev>	it works correctly with `stack ghci` and ghc 9.0.2
07:19:16	<nasosev>	(i'm in the process of migrating my project to cabal with 9.2.2)
07:19:49	<[exa]>	it works here for me with 9.0.2 and cabal
07:19:57	<[exa]>	let's blame 9.2.2? :]
07:20:05	<tomsmeding>	nasosev: works for me on ghc 8.10.7, completion gives module names in current project in `cabal repl`
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07:20:19	<[exa]>	(technically, stack vs cabal choice shouldn't have much influence on the autocompletion)
07:21:57	<[exa]>	lemme try with 9.2.x
07:22:07	<nasosev>	i see.not sure I can easily test 9.0.2 cause i just refactored my project to use OverloadedRecordDot
07:22:10	<nasosev>	ok
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07:25:40	<nasosev>	it could also be a problem with my .cabal config ?
07:26:07	<[exa]>	anything specific that you changed?
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07:27:11	<nasosev>	i started a new cabal project with `cabal init`, and i added all the internal modules to library -> exposed modules since they were not there
07:27:20	<[exa]>	that should be okay
07:27:37	<nasosev>	I noticed the stack project has a module called 'Paths_projectName', i guess it was generated by stack? is that related
07:28:07	<nasosev>	did you test it with 9.2.x btw? i got disconected for a minute when my computer fell asleep
07:28:09	<[exa]>	okay I have 9.2.3 here and MyModule.mything tabs correctly
07:28:22	<tomsmeding>	It can be generated for any project, stack chooses to do it always, is not related
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07:29:16	<nasosev>	hmmm... related question, do you know how to get qualified names imported automatically in the repl? i've tried to put 'import My.Module qualified as Module' in my .ghci but it did not work
07:30:18	<nasosev>	trying to make my repl experience more comfortable... atm i copy and paste a long list of qualified imports from a text file everytime i spin it up
07:30:46	<phma>	nanosev: I created a stack project called random-ladder, and I get a message "Warning: Multiple files use the same module name: Paths_random_ladder found at the following paths"
07:31:10	<tomsmeding>	nasosev: why did that not work? Does it work when you write `import qualified My.Module as Module`?
07:31:30	<phma>	nasosev: any idea what this Paths_ thing is for, or where it is?
07:32:18	<nasosev>	phma: no idea
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07:33:03	<tomsmeding>	phma: find .stack-work -name 'Paths_*.hs'
07:33:20	<tomsmeding>	It's a generated file that contains some metadata about the project
07:33:42	<nasosev>	tomsmeding: yes when i write the exact same line in the repl it works, but if it's in the .ghci it doesn't
07:33:56	<tomsmeding>	O.o
07:35:08	<tomsmeding>	Works for me on 8.10.7, `import qualified Prelude as P` as the only thing in ~/.ghci gives me P.head etc
07:35:34	<tomsmeding>	Oh wait, cabal repl is bound to interfere
07:35:52	<nasosev>	my .ghci also has some other stuff in it: https://pastebin.com/raw/cY0SjmDc
07:36:03	<[exa]>	yeah if I do the import MyModule in 9.2.3 ghci, I get a warning that MyModule doesn't exist (yet)
07:36:12	<[exa]>	s/warning/error/
07:36:32	<tomsmeding>	Oh no that just works
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07:37:16	<nasosev>	without the other stuff still doesn't work
07:37:35	<tomsmeding>	Yeah importing modules from the current project in .ghci while using cabal repl runs into the issue that [exa] gave
07:37:51	<tomsmeding>	The modules are only brought in scope in ghci after .ghci runs
07:38:16	<tomsmeding>	But you should see a warning/error about that
07:38:27	<nasosev>	oh yeah, i do get that error too, didn't notice it before
07:38:41	<[exa]>	nasosev: technically, I usually have a toy module that has all the imports right, and I :load it (which is not a big deal, can be done as :l X if you name the module short :] )
07:38:44	<nasosev>	i tried loading the module in my repl with :m + .. and it also did not work
07:38:47	<phma>	Should stack.yaml.lock be committed to git or ignored?
07:39:34	<tomsmeding>	phma: https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/lock_files/#lock-files
07:39:37	<nasosev>	[exa]: actually I tried that, I have a module that imports all the other modules of my project qualified, but it doesn't work
07:40:16	<nasosev>	e.g. I have a module MyLib, and in it i have a line `import qualified My.Module`
07:40:36	<[exa]>	nasosev: alternatively you can make your own "correct" load using `:def`, which should work in .ghci
07:40:57	<nasosev>	sorry -- 'import qualified My.Module as Module' . Then in ghci, If do ":l MyLib", `Module` is not in scope
07:41:06	<[exa]>	nasosev: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/ghci.html#ghci-cmd-:def
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07:41:36	<tomsmeding>	:def myload \_ -> return "import qualified My.Module as Module\nimport qualified Prelude as P"
07:41:50	<[exa]>	I'd go for someting like :def L = return "import MyModule\n ..." yeah tomsmeding was faster.
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07:42:33	<nasosev>	hm, so if i have 50 modules i want to import I have to list them all after `return "...`
07:42:55	<[exa]>	you always work with 50 modules?
07:43:08	<tomsmeding>	This is defining a ghci macro, kinda hacky, so yes
07:43:29	<[exa]>	like technically the macro can perfectly read the module list from a file :D
07:43:42	<tomsmeding>	:p it's just haskell
07:44:03	<tomsmeding>	:def myload \_ -> readFile "imports.txt"
07:44:22	<nasosev>	yeah i want everything available in the repl with the qualified names
07:44:32	<nasosev>	tomsmeding: ok that is cool i'll try it
07:44:46	<nasosev>	i guess i'm trying to workaround this limitation https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4385195/re-export-qualified
07:45:16	<tomsmeding>	:def source readFile
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07:49:15	<nasosev>	Ok, I get errors "could not load module.... memember of hidden package [myproject]..perhaps you need to add it to build-depends"
07:49:45	<nasosev>	i tried doing that but got other errors.. i guess the project cannot depend on itself ? :)
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07:54:35	<tomsmeding>	nasosev: a project depending on itself is a contradiction
07:54:45	<tomsmeding>	You mean a different component in thr same cabal file?
07:54:57	<tomsmeding>	Cabal repl can only load one component at a time into the repl
07:55:09	<tomsmeding>	Hm, though importing should work
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07:55:27	<nasosev>	i mean, when i did what you suggested, when the repl boots up it complains that hte modules in my imports.txt are member of the hidden package [myprojectname]
07:56:11	<tomsmeding>	nasosev: my suggestion was putting that :def in .ghci, and then manually running :myload after ghci has come up and your project has been loaded
07:56:31	<nasosev>	oh, my bad, i put :myload in the .ghci file
07:56:38	<tomsmeding>	Calling :myload in .ghci is useless because then you could've just listed the imports there anyway -- which is the same as before :p
07:57:08	<tomsmeding>	The point is that _first_ .ghci is loaded, _then_ the project is brought into scope, _then_ the interactive shell is started
07:57:09	<nasosev>	tomsmeding: ok that works great! sorry i was stupid
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07:58:30	<nasosev>	and even better -- somehow this fixed the autocomplete issue as well! after I do :myload, all the qualified names are available in autocomplete
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07:58:49	<nasosev>	thank u everyone
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07:59:24	<tomsmeding>	Ah, so they weren't even imported in the first place :)
07:59:25	<tomsmeding>	Nice
07:59:56	<tomsmeding>	Glad that it works :)
08:00:05	<nasosev>	:)
08:00:25	<tomsmeding>	I just checked -- ghci has a command line flag to ad hoc load another .ghci file into the repl, but that also gets loaded before cabal loads in the modules
08:00:29	<tomsmeding>	So doesn't help here
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08:21:01	<nasosev>	another question about defining stuff in .ghci: I want my pretty-simple printer to use the compact option by default. currently i have pretty-simple loaded with this .ghci file: https://pastebin.com/raw/cY0SjmDc
08:22:13	<nasosev>	the compact mode is activated by calling "pPrintStringOpt CheckColorTty defaultOutputOptionsDarkBg {outputOptionsCompact = True}", but when i put that in .ghci and load the repl, it does not work and prints a message: "Some flags have not been recognized: CheckColorTty, defaultOutputOptionsDarkBg, {outputOptionsCompact, =, True}"
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08:22:46	<nasosev>	with the definition in the .ghci .... :def! pretty \ _ -> pure ":set -interactive-print Text.Pretty.Simple.pPrintStringOpt CheckColorTty defaultOutputOptionsDarkBg {outputOptionsCompact = True}"
08:23:03	<tomsmeding>	I think -interactive-print just wants a single identifier
08:24:49	<nasosev>	i had tried defining "printCompact = :def! pretty \ _ -> pure ":set -interactive-print Text.Pretty.Simple.pPrintStringOpt CheckColorTty defaultOutputOptionsDarkBg {outputOptionsCompact = True}" in my project before, but now i understand why that won't work since .ghci loads before project
08:24:53	<tomsmeding>	Yeah, user guide confirms that
08:25:15	<nasosev>	typo: printCompact = Text.Pretty.Simple.pPrintStringOpt CheckColorTty defaultOutputOptionsDarkBg {outputOptionsCompact = True}
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08:26:21	<tomsmeding>	Write your own package that exports precisely the function you want, install it, and load it in .ghci just like you load pretty-simple? :')
08:26:26	<tomsmeding>	This is not very ergonomic
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08:27:40	<tomsmeding>	Ghci is basically a surprisingly effective collection of hacks
08:28:11	<tomsmeding>	Perhaps that doesn't do justice to those working on ghci, sorry
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08:28:34	<tomsmeding>	But a bunch of things certainly look like they could be more elegant in design (backwards-incompatibly)
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08:31:27	<nasosev>	hmm, ok!
08:41:06	<nasosev>	i tried this, but does not work:
08:41:11	<nasosev>	:m + Text.Pretty.Simple
08:41:11	<nasosev>	:def printCompact \ _ -> pure "printCompact = Text.Pretty.Simple.pPrintStringOpt CheckColorTty defaultOutputOptionsDarkBg {outputOptionsCompact = True}"
08:41:11	<nasosev>	:printCompact
08:41:13	<nasosev>	:def! pretty \ _ -> pure ":set -interactive-print printCompact"
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08:55:48	<tomsmeding>	Are you putting this in .ghci?
08:56:17	<tomsmeding>	nasosev: local definitions in ghci, like your printCompact is, get lost on a :reload
08:56:41	<tomsmeding>	Hence the suggestion of putting it in a package :p
08:56:50	<tomsmeding>	% a = 42
08:56:50	<yahb2>	<no output>
08:56:52	<tomsmeding>	% a
08:56:53	<yahb2>	42
08:56:56	<tomsmeding>	% :r
08:56:56	<yahb2>	Ok, one module loaded.
08:56:58	<tomsmeding>	% a
08:56:58	<yahb2>	<interactive>:166:1: error: Variable not in scope: a
08:58:15	<nasosev>	ohhh i see, damn. so ideally the maintainer of pretty-simple should make the compact option a single identifier
08:59:27	<nasosev>	putting it in a packag edoesn't seem like a good long term option, as i would have to keep it up to date manually?
08:59:54	<tomsmeding>	Yes to both, though there's not much to be kept up to date :D
09:00:17	<tomsmeding>	Unless pretty-simple updates and you want functionality from the new version
09:00:47	<tomsmeding>	Hm, not shre what happens if the local project uses a newer version of pretty-simple than the suggested ad hoc library does...
09:00:51	<tomsmeding>	*sure
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09:38:51	<nasosev>	tomsmeding: actually, a nice solution for me is to just put it at the top of my imports.txt file :)
09:39:16	<tomsmeding>	👍
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09:43:38	<[exa]>	(lovely how autoexec.bat eventually crawls to every platform!)
09:46:45	<turlando>	I have this function that evolves by recurring with updated values. It has a lot of "state" values. I managed to remove one of the arguments by abstracting it in a state monad. I'd love to abstract in the same way other params as well. Do I need to use StateT in order to avoid nesting of state monads? What's the cleanest/easiest way to do it?
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09:51:39	<[exa]>	turlando: better have 1 state monad that holds a type with several fields
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09:52:18	<[exa]>	like, `data MyState = { this :: Int, that :: String }` and then use `State MyState a` as the monad
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09:54:32	<[exa]>	there are nice utility functions that make this quite bearable. You will like `gets` which can be used as `i <- gets this` or `str <- gets that` with the above data
09:54:54	<turlando>	[exa]: Kinda wanted to avoid that since the fields are quite different: one is a monotonic counter, that I use by binding a «next :: State Int a» function, another is an instance of RandomGen, another is a kind of priority queue. I'd love to keep operations on them separated, not sure if that's a good idea though
09:54:55	<[exa]>	then there's partial structure updates, `modify $ \s -> s{this=123}`
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09:56:40	<[exa]>	turlando: technically you won't gain much by separating them physically. But maybe you might want to make a few utility functions that access this for you
09:56:57	<[exa]>	like, `nextRandom :: State MyState Int` and so
09:58:16	<[exa]>	this hides the field accesses from the "user" code, and if you later decide to migrate to some other kind of monad (e.g. RWST), you just change the utility functions layer and the rest of the code stays same
09:58:43	<turlando>	I see, and this way I guess I can keep the "local" utilities I need that operate on the specific state, say the counter, (so I can test and use them individually) and wrap them in the "global" state/record, right?
09:59:39	<[exa]>	yes. Also, if you need to explicitly make sure your user code can't "break" the monad, just wrap this type in a newtype and write the Functor/Applicative/Monad instances for it (should be trivial)
09:59:58	<[exa]>	as in `newtype MyMonad a = MyMonad (State MyState a)`
10:00:01	<turlando>	That's a great tip, thanks
10:00:02	<[exa]>	(roughly)
10:00:19	<[exa]>	finally, there's lenses that play veeeeeery well with State
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10:00:56	<turlando>	I kinda wanted to stay away from lenses right now, both for mental complexity and for compile time explosion due templatehaskell
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10:02:06	<[exa]>	it's not that bad with compiletimes tbh, and you don't really need TH, writing lenses manually is easy. In any case you can get roughly this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.1.1/docs/Control-Lens-Operators.html#v:.-61-
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10:03:17	<[exa]>	anyway, if I guess your usecase right, the wrap+utils approach is probably the best one here
10:03:59	<turlando>	Thanks for linking that page, I will keep in mind for the future, but right now I don't think that importing lens and all that jazz is justified for what I have to do
10:04:14	<[exa]>	:]
10:05:08	<[exa]>	`zoom` is IMO the coolest tool there, e.g. `zoom both` from the example here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.1.1/docs/Control-Lens-Combinators.html#v:zoom
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11:15:20	<yuv4199>	Hello! I am new to Dhall, coming from Haskell and really like it for writing configurations. Now, there are `dhall` bindings for Haskell and I was wondering if it is possible to pack an existential type and use it in Haskell. Basically, I would like to have some type class `class Fooable a where foo :: a -> Text` and a type `data Foo = forall a.
11:15:21	<yuv4199>	Fooable a => Foo a` then I would like to configure values from Dhall: writing `{foo = Natural/show}` in Dhall and read that into a `Foo` from Haskell with `Dhall.input`
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11:16:06	<yuv4199>	I already asked in #dhall but didn't get an answer and the only thing I could find was this article (https://bkase.dev/posts/data-abstraction-dhall) but I don't think it helps..
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11:23:55	<[exa]>	yuv4199: this looks as very easily impossible. Where precisely you want to pack the existential? Define the existential in Dhall and have Haskell interpret the definitions from the Dhall language?
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11:28:39	<yin>	can something like Typeable or Generics be considered "metaprogramming" in haskell?
11:30:16	<[exa]>	yuv4199: I'd say it's reflection, which people could categorize in metaprogramming
11:30:26	<[exa]>	yin: ^ mishighlight, sorry
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11:31:59	<[exa]>	technically, metaprogramming is "manipulating source by a custom program before running the result" which is what Typeable and Generics dodges using a pretty nice abstraction
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11:33:38	<[exa]>	the current implementation gives a very rich description of your datatypes to your program to play with them, but unless you throw it to TemplateHaskell, you do not really manipulate and create the source code by your program
11:33:59	<yuv4199>	exa: yeah, the idea would be to unpack and interpret within Haskell. I wouldn't mind using TH or write some Generics instances.
11:34:08	<yin>	yeah usually it's moving computations from runtime to compile time but all this happening at the type level, and types being otherwise erased before runtime
11:34:26	<yin>	it feels loke it's the other way around
11:34:51	<[exa]>	yin: do you have some tiny usecase or something, just to materialize the idea?
11:35:18	<yin>	not at all. just a random thought
11:36:35	<[exa]>	ah okay. well, my 50 cent: 1] you can certainly translate whatever Dhall to Haskell code and generate programs from that using TemplateHaskell but I wouldn't say it's going to give you a very transparent system in the end
11:37:56	<[exa]>	2] unless you need the result to be magically fast (i.e., benefit from ghc optimizations or something), I'd just suggest trying to reuse the dhall evaluation functions to make a smal interpreter in Haskell and use it instead of the existentials
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11:39:45	<[exa]>	like, your "Foo" above is basically "a packed program that generates Text". You can almost equivalently have "A source of a program that generates Text".
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11:44:37	<yuv4199>	In my usecase it would stay a function though, what I really would want to pass to Haskell is two functions `A -> T` and `U -> A`
11:44:37	<yuv4199>	for fix `T` and `U`. I guess I could leave those as is, read with TH and pack them but it wouldn't be transparent like you said. Initially I wanted to pass something like `{handlers : List Foo, ...}`
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11:45:00	<[exa]>	oh whoops looks like I confused the answer from yin with your answer, sorry :D
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11:46:25	<[exa]>	y[tab] didn't really help.
11:47:05	<[exa]>	yuv4199: so you'd code the 2 functions in Dhall, and have the Haskell program work with them somehow, right?
11:48:25	<yuv4199>	Exactly, yeah
11:48:27	<[exa]>	yin: with Generics it's like exposing enough information about the types that ghc can compile the code that works over the generic information to something that looks like you'd write it manually or produce it with TemplateHaskell. But without metaprogramming and TemplateHaskell.
11:51:19	<[exa]>	yuv4199: you might hit a bit of a conceptual wall there, Dhall is supposed to produce the "json-like structure", which doesn't really describe functions well. You might need to use the Dhall library code in a slightly nonstandard way to get the functions out nicely
11:52:06	<[exa]>	(possible reduction to a more tangible problem: how do you put a dhall function into json?)
11:53:52	<yuv4199>	Ah, wait. If that is not possible then I can forget it - yeah. I am quite new to Dhall, so I was not aware of that limitation. I assumed that'd work since I can write records containing functions (though I did not yet try to use them from within Haskell)
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11:55:08	<[exa]>	yeah if you want the "standard behavior dhall", you certainly should think how to encode the information into json. :]
11:56:56	<yuv4199>	Oh, okay but it works. I just tested this: `f <- input auto "./f.dhall`; print @Text (f (101 :: Natural))` with `f.dhall` containing `Natural/show`, so we can pass functions from Dhall to Haskell and evaluate them there
11:57:04	<yuv4199>	So that shouldn't be a limitation.
12:00:08	<[exa]>	oh good so it's got its own nice transparent interpreter
12:01:00	<[exa]>	lovely https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dhall-1.41.1/docs/Dhall-Marshal-Decode.html#g:8
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14:03:15	<[itchyjunk]>	I am having issue understanding this problem statement. https://bpa.st/QDLQ
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14:03:38	<[itchyjunk]>	so this list can contain ints or strings. i am to identify ints, sum them up and return?
14:03:52	<[itchyjunk]>	"as if all were numbers"
14:04:03	<[itchyjunk]>	i don't get that part
14:04:39	<tomsmeding>	[itchyjunk]: underspecified
14:04:48	<tomsmeding>	But sounds like [Either String Int] -> Int
14:05:01	<tomsmeding>	Or perhaps Num a => [Either String a] -> a
14:05:12	<tomsmeding>	Which might actually be more appropriate
14:05:13	<[itchyjunk]>	yes they give one line of code to start with which says :
14:05:14	<[itchyjunk]>	sumMix :: [Either String Int] -> Int
14:05:17	<tomsmeding>	Ah
14:05:32	<tomsmeding>	sum . map (either read id)
14:06:01	<[itchyjunk]>	oh google is telling me Either is like the `Maybe` thingy, right?
14:06:03	<geekosaur>	that sums them all, sounds like they want just the Ints?
14:06:10	<[itchyjunk]>	So i have left a or right a
14:06:20	<[itchyjunk]>	oh, is it just ints? hmm
14:06:25	<geekosaur>	filter out the Rights and sum them
14:06:53	<[itchyjunk]>	It's Rights just because of the ordering that says Either String Int?
14:07:05	<geekosaur>	mm, I guess that raises the question of what "filter out" means 🙂
14:07:06	<[itchyjunk]>	If it was Either Int String, i would be lefts, correct?
14:07:12	<geekosaur>	yes
14:07:16	<[itchyjunk]>	that it does :x
14:07:35	<geekosaur>	but if it saus "identify ints, sum them up" then you want whichever side has the Ints
14:08:05	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: nothing so well-defined https://bpa.st/QDLQ
14:08:06	<[itchyjunk]>	so from some list, i can extract each element (x:xs). now if Right x then i want to sum this but if it's Left x i want to ignore it
14:08:25	<[itchyjunk]>	"return the sum of the array values as if all were numbers."
14:08:32	<[itchyjunk]>	why does it say "as if all were numbers"?
14:08:44	<geekosaur>	because I went by your description, which was wrong
14:09:00	<geekosaur>	tomsmeding had it right, you need to convert the Strings to numbers
14:09:08	<geekosaur>	not just ignore them
14:09:22	<[itchyjunk]>	hmmmmm
14:09:24	<geekosaur>	(which assumes the Strings contain String representations of numbers, but)
14:09:58	<[itchyjunk]>	i'll think about this a bit more i guess
14:11:01	<geekosaur>	tomsmeding already gave you the answer (which was probably a bad idea)
14:11:17	<tomsmeding>	(maybe, sorry)
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14:14:21	<geekosaur>	anyway the key here is you want something that does one thing if it's a Left and something else if it's a Right. you should have been shown something that fits that description already
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14:49:10	<brence>	can we have a Num instance for primitive types (Int# etc.)?
14:49:27	<geekosaur>	not currently
14:49:34	<geekosaur>	there's been some discussion about it
14:49:44	<tomsmeding>	:k Num
14:49:45	<lambdabot>	* -> Constraint
14:49:53	<tomsmeding>	:k Int#
14:49:55	<lambdabot>	error:
14:49:55	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Int#’
14:49:55	<lambdabot>	Perhaps you meant one of these:
14:50:21	<merijn>	brence: Unboxed types have a different kind than boxed types
14:50:43	<merijn>	Which, as tomsmeding attempted to show, doesn't match the kind signature of the Num class
14:50:46	<geekosaur>	iirc there are more fundamental issues than that
14:50:56	<tomsmeding>	% :k Int#
14:50:56	<yahb2>	Int# :: TYPE 'IntRep
14:51:00	<brence>	Ah, I see thanks
14:51:18	<tomsmeding>	% :k Int
14:51:18	<yahb2>	Int :: *
14:51:21	<merijn>	geekosaur: Like?
14:51:37	<brence>	geekosaur: the discussions were about making Num levity polymorphic?
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14:52:00	<merijn>	brence: That would make the class look horrifically complex for beginners, though
14:52:13	<brence>	yeah, I agree
14:52:38	<geekosaur>	it should in theory be possible to rephrase Num such that be levity polymorphic, but it would introduce other issues. I'm looking for the discussion
14:54:46	<brence>	Does GHC -O2 replace Int with Int# and (+) with (+#) when it's an obvious optimization?
14:54:54	<tomsmeding>	https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/play/paste/FJsVvd8M/1
14:55:08	<merijn>	brence: The strictness analyzer tries to do that where possible, yes
14:55:16	<geekosaur>	brence, if it can determine strictness, yes
14:55:16	<tomsmeding>	brence: also look up the worker-wrapper optimisation
14:55:58	<merijn>	brence: In fact, this is why the pedantic distinction between "Haskell is non-strict" (i.e. not lazy!) and "Haskell is lazy" matters
14:56:43	<tomsmeding>	(And `UNum LiftedRep Int` also results in a valid instance in that paste)
14:57:09	<merijn>	brence: If Haskell was defined as lazy, making code strict like that would violate the semantics. By specifying "non-strict" (i.e. "it should work, if it works when the code is lazy") means that GHC is allowed to make code strict IFF it knows for sure making it strict does not break anything
14:57:15	<tomsmeding>	merijn: "haskell is at least as defined as lazy evaluation"?
14:57:39	<tomsmeding>	What you said :p
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14:59:43	<geekosaur>	brence, someone asked the same thing you did (making Num levity polymorphic)
14:59:59	<geekosaur>	I think it was in #ghc, but I started out by checking the mailing lists
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15:02:14	<tomsmeding>	Didn't edwardk also do stuff with unlifted types in type classes
15:02:30	<merijn>	Probably
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15:02:50	<merijn>	Isn't the answer to "didn't edwardk also do X?" always "probably"? :p
15:03:11	<geekosaur>	"No variable may have a levity-polymorphic type."
15:03:22	<geekosaur>	(tyvars, iirc)
15:03:41	<geekosaur>	so as yet you can't really use levity polymorphism in a lot of places
15:04:41	<geekosaur>	I think this includes classes with instances of different levities
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15:05:12	<geekosaur>	so maybe you can't have levity polymorphic Num after all
15:06:18	<brence>	geekosaur: isn't that what tomsmeding did in the paste?
15:06:24	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: edited version of the paste above: https://play-haskell.tomsmeding.com/play/paste/Es18J95w/1
15:06:31	<geekosaur>	(the strictness analyzer runs after typechecking, so it's allowed to switch levity)
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15:07:20	<geekosaur>	huh
15:07:31	<tomsmeding>	8.6.5 even allows it :p
15:07:50	<geekosaur>	I may well lbe misunderstanding the discussion I found, I am far from expert on this
15:07:54	<tomsmeding>	To be honest I had no clue and just typed what seemed to make sense to me
15:08:21	<geekosaur>	maybe it's undeclared lecity polymorphism or something
15:09:16	<tomsmeding>	The obvious simplification `class UNum (a :: k) where add :: a -> a -> a` is rejected, in any case, but that makes sense because random kinds might not have inhabitable types
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15:11:18	<brence>	geekosaur: I think the quote means you can't make a single variable levity polymorphic but this doesn't mean a function can't be levity polymorphic in its arguments?
15:12:00	<tomsmeding>	Ah, so where geekosaur assumed "tyvars", "variable" actually referred to value variables?
15:12:04	<geekosaur>	functions have always permitted levity polymorphic parameters
15:12:05	<tomsmeding>	That sounds likely
15:12:11	<geekosaur>	results used to have to be kind *
15:12:17	<tomsmeding>	`add` is always lifted because of the ->
15:12:21	<geekosaur>	but that has changed over time
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15:13:54	<tomsmeding>	Hm `x :: UNum r t => t ; x = undefined` compiles fine
15:14:43	<geekosaur>	:k (->)
15:14:44	<lambdabot>	* -> * -> *
15:16:26	<tomsmeding>	% :set -fprint-explicit-runtime-reps
15:16:26	<yahb2>	<no output>
15:16:27	<geekosaur>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.1/docs/html/users_guide/exts/levity_polymorphism.html#no-levity-polymorphic-variables-or-arguments
15:16:32	<tomsmeding>	% :k (->)
15:16:32	<yahb2>	(->) :: TYPE q -> TYPE r -> *
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15:17:11	<geekosaur>	back in the day that used to print something ridiculous with ? and ?? or something like that. would have to restore logs from my old desktop to se
15:17:13	<geekosaur>	e
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15:18:38	<tomsmeding>	% -set -fprint-explicit-foralls -fprint-explicit-kinds
15:18:39	<yahb2>	<interactive>:186:2: error: ; • Variable not in scope: set ; • Perhaps you meant ‘seq’ (imported from Prelude) ; ; <interactive>:186:7: error: ; • Variable not in scope: fprint ; •...
15:18:50	<tomsmeding>	% :set -fprint-explicit-foralls -fprint-explicit-kinds
15:18:50	<yahb2>	<no output>
15:19:03	<tomsmeding>	% :k (->)
15:19:04	<yahb2>	(->) :: forall {q :: RuntimeRep} {r :: RuntimeRep}. ; TYPE q -> TYPE r -> *
15:19:40	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: yeah that quote in the user guide I think refers to valur variables
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15:20:03	<tomsmeding>	Interesting then that my paste is accepted
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15:29:12	<albet70>	how I can construct a value has StreamingBody? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-3.0.2.3/docs/Network-Wai.html#t:StreamingBody
15:29:54	<edwardk>	tomsmeding: https://github.com/ekmett/unboxed
15:29:57	<albet70>	I don't know how to use this stream function from https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scotty-0.10.1/docs/Web-Scotty-Trans.html#v:stream
15:30:14	<albet70>	there's no example...
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15:35:03	<hpc>	geekosaur: iirc it was ? -> ?? -> *
15:35:24	<hpc>	? is * or any unboxed, and ?? was * and unboxed (except for unboxed tuples)
15:35:31	<hpc>	but don't quote me on that, it's been forever for me too
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15:36:47	<int-e>	hmm, unboxed tuples should be in the return type, so I think you've swapped the explanation of ? and ??
15:37:33	<hpc>	possibly
15:37:49	<[exa]>	albet70: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-3.0.2.3/docs/Network-Wai.html#v:responseStream
15:38:21	<[exa]>	albet70: your function is given 2 handler (write & flush) and you can do whatever you want with them
15:40:47	<albet70>	[exa]: I want to stream a media file, is that ok? like a x.mp4
15:41:30	<albet70>	I saw that readFile which read entire file, it could be used in this?
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15:43:01	<albet70>	I need a readFile which can read specific count from a file?
15:43:01	<int-e>	hpc: Actually, no, it's the arguments of (->) that are swapped. It was (->) :: ?? -> ? -> *. Yeah, it's been a long time.
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15:51:39	<hpc>	a simpler time, when nobody knew how functions worked
15:51:50	<merijn>	albet70: You want hRead from bytestring
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15:53:03	<merijn>	eh, wait, hGetSome I mean
15:53:21	<merijn>	albet70: See https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.11.3.1/docs/Data-ByteString.html#v:hGet
15:53:53	<merijn>	albet70: Going to the right offset can be done via hSeek https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.2.0/docs/System-IO.html#v:hSeek
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16:02:32	<albet70>	merijn: could hGet do that?
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16:03:37	<safinaskar>	is there any work on GHC2022?
16:04:07	<albet70>	do {handle <- openBinaryFile "./Downloads/30.mp4" ReadMode;bytestring <- hGet handle 1000}
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16:04:52	<albet70>	but this hGet could return empty::ByteString, how I can detect it? there's no isEmtpy :: ByteString -> Bool
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16:07:20	<albet70>	hSeek return IO() not ByteString
16:07:23	<geekosaur>	(BS.length == 0) seems entirely usable?
16:07:38	<geekosaur>	hSeek doesn't return data, it just moves to a partoicular offset in a file
16:08:02	<albet70>	hSeek then hGet?
16:08:08	<geekosaur>	yes
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16:08:32	<geekosaur>	hSeek h offset >> hGet h 1000
16:10:26	<albet70>	x <- liftIO (hSeek h offset >> hGet h 1000) is ok?
16:12:03	<geekosaur>	yes
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16:14:26	<geekosaur>	well, hSeek is actually a little more complex than that, yuou can specify absolute or relative positioning
16:15:10	<geekosaur>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/8.10.7/docs/html/libraries/base-4.14.3.0/System-IO.html#g:13
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16:30:17	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unix-2.7.2.2/docs/System-Posix-IO.html#g:5
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16:40:44	<albet70>	the number with hGet, what it unit?
16:41:04	<albet70>	hGet with 1024 mean 1KB?
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16:45:49	<geekosaur>	should be bytes
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17:24:23	<tomsmeding>	edwardk: oof https://github.com/ekmett/unboxed/blob/main/src/Unboxed/Class.hs
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17:25:29	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: brence: https://github.com/ekmett/unboxed/blob/main/internal/Unboxed/Internal/Class.hs#L146
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17:40:28	<[itchyjunk]>	Hm, sorry i didn't work on the problem earlier. I am writing a helper function called `go` do deal with `Either`. But I am stuck with the signature of `go` already.
17:41:14	<[itchyjunk]>	i want `go :: Either -> Int` in pseudo code, i think. I wanna take this Either data type and turn it all into Int datatype so i can add it, right?
17:41:48	<geekosaur>	it can't simply be Either; it's Either Something SomethingElse
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17:42:45	<[itchyjunk]>	`go :: Either String Int -> Int` ?
17:43:07	<geekosaur>	yes
17:43:24	<Pickchea>	Hey, I'm using stack for my project and it's been working find but all of a sudden I get "Prelude.chr: bad argument: 4127195140" every time I try `stack ghci` or `stack exec ...`. Any clue what the problem could be?
17:43:57	<Pickchea>	*working fine
17:44:01	<[itchyjunk]>	So `go Right x = x` seems like the easy part because i just get the Int for free
17:44:17	<[itchyjunk]>	so my only missing case is `go Left x = ?` i think
17:44:18	<geekosaur>	you need parentheses
17:44:39	<geekosaur>	and you should already know how to parse a String
17:46:11	<[itchyjunk]>	ah for the string i'd want `go Left "x" = ?` ? or was the parentheses needed somewhere else?
17:46:35	<maerwald>	Pickchea: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/19452
17:46:55	<geekosaur>	go (Left x) =
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17:47:07	<geekosaur>	`go Left x` is two parameters, one of which is a function
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17:47:15	<[itchyjunk]>	oh right..
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17:48:06	<Pickchea>	maerwald, thanks!
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17:52:22	<qrpnxz>	there a way to do max/min on type level naturals? the ones that ghc comes with anyway
17:52:41	<[itchyjunk]>	I found a solution with google and then looked at what tomsmeding said. he seems to have also used `read`. https://bpa.st/EFZQ
17:52:49	<[itchyjunk]>	Time to try and understand his one liner solution i guess
17:53:41	<tomsmeding>	[itchyjunk]: my one-liner is something that I might write in my code, but is probably not suitable to learn from directly
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17:54:00	<[itchyjunk]>	ah
17:54:03	<tomsmeding>	Ah I see you got a solution yourself now too
17:54:26	<[itchyjunk]>	is my solution similar to yours? I see you use `sum` and looking up, seems like it's good for lists
17:54:28	<tomsmeding>	[itchyjunk]: have you seen `case` expressions already?
17:54:47	<qrpnxz>	sum . fmap go?
17:54:49	<[itchyjunk]>	Yes i have. but haven't used it comfortably yet
17:54:54	<tomsmeding>	Yeah I'm using sum and map instead of your explicit recursion and (+)
17:55:24	<tomsmeding>	sumMix l = ...
17:55:28	<qrpnxz>	[itchyjunk]: sum work on any foldable
17:55:35	<tomsmeding>	Here l is of type [Either String Int]
17:56:17	<tomsmeding>	qrpnxz: they aren't even comfortable with `sum` at all, it's not a good idea to start talking about Foldable at this point
17:56:32	<geekosaur>	or with `either` apparently
17:56:50	<qrpnxz>	lol
17:56:59	<[itchyjunk]>	I'd not seen `Either` before. :x but this is one of the "fundamental" problems apparently
17:57:26	<tomsmeding>	[itchyjunk]: the idea is to split the walking of the list in two parts: first applying `go` to every element of the list (resulting in [Int], because go :: Either String Int -> Int), then sum this list of Int values to a single Int
17:57:55	<tomsmeding>	[itchyjunk]: data Either a b = Left a \| Right b
17:57:57	<tomsmeding>	Does that help?
17:58:06	<tomsmeding>	It's literally the definition
17:58:46	<[itchyjunk]>	yes that makes sense. i go from [Either String Int] -> [Int] then i can `sum` to go from [Int]->Int
17:59:01	<qrpnxz>	👍
17:59:16	<tomsmeding>	:t map
17:59:17	<lambdabot>	(a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
18:00:01	<tomsmeding>	% :t map @(Either String Int) @Int
18:00:01	<yahb2>	map @(Either String Int) @Int ; :: (Either String Int -> Int) -> [Either String Int] -> [Int]
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18:00:56	<tomsmeding>	(the @ stuf is something that you haven't seen yet, and don't need to understand yet. Intuitively: I'm specialising the type of `map` so that it gets precisely the type that I wanted to show)
18:01:24	<tomsmeding>	[itchyjunk]: now fill in the whole sumMix :)
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18:04:19	<[itchyjunk]>	`sumMix xs = sum.map (go xs)` in the non empty case?
18:05:11	<[itchyjunk]>	i want to apply sum to the result of `map go xs`
18:05:15	<[itchyjunk]>	oh i didn't need the ()
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18:09:47	<[itchyjunk]>	Next problem is much easier :x https://bpa.st/J24A
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18:13:37	<marcusxavier>	Do you think that exercism exercises are a good way to practice?
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18:17:31	<qrpnxz>	[itchyjunk]: watch out, (sum.map) (go xs) is not the same as (sum.map go) xs
18:19:55	<[Leary]>	[itchyjunk]: `product` alone is a complete solution there, suggesting they don't want you to use it, but rather to implement it. And I don't know why they keep saying 'array' when they're dealing with Haskell (linked) lists. The phrasing of the problems suggests a lack of familiarity with the language.
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18:49:13	<John_Ivan>	hi. could anyone explain to me the insight of how functional programming is laid out from a mathematical point of view? because I don't seem to understand the structure of an expression
18:49:37	<monochrom>	Who were that exercise? It is also missing out the teaching moment that multiplying an empty list is also valid.
18:49:49	<monochrom>	err, s/Who were/Who wrote/
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18:51:13	<geekosaur>	John_Ivan, if you're talking about Haskell expressions, that has less to do with mathematics as such than about partial application
18:51:34	<geekosaur>	which often has more to do with convenience
18:51:45	<John_Ivan>	geekosaur, well, maybe I should present an example. let's the following:
18:52:04	<John_Ivan>	myFunction :: Int -> String -> IO ()
18:52:13	<John_Ivan>	myFunction x y = do ...
18:52:27	<John_Ivan>	geekosaur, this layout in particular.
18:52:46	<John_Ivan>	what does it "mean" and what is my goal/scope?
18:53:27	<John_Ivan>	I'm referring to the 2nd line.
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18:54:17	<John_Ivan>	geekosaur, I know what it does. I don't know what it means or why it is like that.
18:54:23	<geekosaur>	as I said, this has more to do with partial application. it's the same as `myFunction = \x -> \y -> do …` and if you only provide the `x` then its result is the `\y -> do ...`
18:55:10	<John_Ivan>	geekosaur, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_application this?
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18:55:31	<geekosaur>	yes
18:55:57	<geekosaur>	it's a fundamental aspect of Haskell but not most other languages, including other functional programming languages
18:56:34	<geekosaur>	(and notably is also absent from lambda calculus whoich is usually taken as the basis for functional programming)
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18:58:08	<John_Ivan>	hmm
18:58:10	<John_Ivan>	"The practical motivation for partial application is that very often the functions obtained by supplying some but not all of the arguments to a function are useful; for example, many languages have a function or operator similar to plus_one. Partial application makes it easy to define these functions, for example by creating a function that represents the addition operator with 1 bound as its first argument."
18:58:24	<John_Ivan>	ok. I get that aspect
18:59:12	<John_Ivan>	geekosaur, what would the ultimate goal of functional programming be?
18:59:22	<int-e>	geekosaur: hmpf, what's the distinction that makes it present in Haskell but absent in lambda calculus?
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19:00:06	<geekosaur>	John_Ivan, I'm not sure iut has a specific goal distinct from other languages. It's an approach, not a goal
19:00:37	<John_Ivan>	sure. but approaches themselves have smaller goals. for example, in imperative programming, the ultimate goal is assignment.
19:00:49	<geekosaur>	just as OOP has its own distinct approach (well, several approaches) but the same goals as other general purpose languages
19:00:51	<monochrom>	That escalated to meta philosophy quickly.
19:01:24	<int-e>	(If you worry about this at a low enough level... you can do the same kind of arity analysis that GHC does in any lambda calculus, and then you get /actual/ partial applications.)
19:01:42	<geekosaur>	int-e, yeh, I've been considering how true that actually was. I think I was focusing more on combinator calculus, where it's less than obvious how to partially apply, say, `S`
19:01:54	<monochrom>	All languages have as ultimate goal "do it my way and get off my lawn".
19:02:01	<John_Ivan>	every single line of code in an imperative language, be it a function call, an expression, a declaration, or whatever, falls down to the goal of "assignment" or making "permanent" changes to variables.
19:02:29	<John_Ivan>	I don't really see what the goal is in functional.
19:02:53	<EvanR>	your program is an expression, and expressions are composed of more expressions, until you have the primitives
19:03:15	<EvanR>	like (previously introduced by binders) variables, numeric literals
19:03:20	<John_Ivan>	EvanR, I "think" that might be the answer to what I'm looking for. Why is that?
19:03:29	<int-e>	geekosaur: That's fair. Though... hmm, when I implemented a combinatory logic interpreter I did end up with explicit partial applications, ala data Term = S \| S1 Term \| S2 Term Term \| K \| K1 Term \| I, precisely to capture partial applications during evaluation.
19:03:57	<EvanR>	expression languages are more easily amenable to denotational semantics
19:04:13	<EvanR>	don't quote me on that YMMV
19:04:13	<int-e>	geekosaur: Whoops, that's missing an App case.
19:04:38	<John_Ivan>	EvanR, my son. you give me answers to questions that are in need of further questions...
19:04:52	<John_Ivan>	what is denotational semantic?
19:04:52	<EvanR>	welcome to the jungle
19:05:34	<EvanR>	or as a random cameo by bruce banner at the end of shang chi put it, the circus
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19:05:56	<monochrom>	Lambda calculus certainly has partial application. Maybe most people don't use it very often, but it's there.
19:06:28	<int-e>	monochrom: the philosophical angle on this is that when all functions are unary, you can't partially apply those
19:06:48	<John_Ivan>	EvanR, according to wikipedia, it's the basic block to mathematical objects to represent an expression
19:06:49	<int-e>	since then they are either unapplied or fully applied
19:07:05	<John_Ivan>	ok. this seems to be going towards the goal I'm after with my question :)
19:07:08	<monochrom>	Maybe most people use no-application at all. They get a function like (\x. \y. x) and they say "that's boolean true, I'm done, I'm not even giving it any argument, much less one argument!"
19:07:11	<John_Ivan>	will read soemore more. thanks.
19:07:11	<EvanR>	the word expression is a placeholder for some unit of currency in a syntax
19:07:19	<int-e>	anyway, that's not a useful angle.
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19:07:45	<int-e>	monochrom: who doesn't like arguments though?
19:07:49	<EvanR>	people use other words for the same thing, for example "term", esp if there is are different syntactic sorts to track
19:07:57	<geekosaur>	yeh, I reconsidered that aside from the shorthand of λxy being the same as λxλy there's not actually a context in which partial application is meaningful
19:08:04	<int-e>	...especially inconsequential ones...
19:08:30	<monochrom>	Well, we don't have to say "partial application" in Haskell either.
19:08:52	<geekosaur>	(aside, I need to bind a key to one of the lambdas)
19:08:56	<int-e>	which is why I mentioned arity analysis earlier
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19:11:00	<EvanR>	just bind it to λ. C:λUsersλEvanRλProgram FilesλEtc
19:11:53	<int-e>	/home/int-e/haskell/...
19:12:01	<int-e>	this is why Windows is inferior :P
19:12:05	<monochrom>	"(\x y -> x) (\z -> z)" is either "partial application" in both Haskell and lambda calculus or "simply application, there is only one kind" is both Haskell and lambda calculus.
19:12:21	<monochrom>	s/is both/in both/
19:12:25	<int-e>	monochrom: yep
19:13:43	<EvanR>	in haskell there is only single argument functions. Also in haskell we have multiple argument functions xD
19:13:56	<EvanR>	after you get compiled at least
19:14:26	<int-e>	@quote fugue
19:14:26	<lambdabot>	monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
19:15:12	<EvanR>	mutually contradictory true facts don't help the case where people complain about the language being too hard xD
19:15:54	<int-e>	But it is part of what makes Haskell fun. :P
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19:16:05	<c_wraith>	Eh. One of those is language semantics, the other is a compilation detail that occasionally matters when optimizing code.
19:16:07	<EvanR>	in haskell we have functors, but also, we don't have functors
19:16:18	<monochrom>	No, it is the same fact but rendered under two competing definitions.
19:16:32	<EvanR>	set is a functor but also set can't be a functor
19:16:52	<int-e>	it's not a hard concept when you start with a typical operation like addition.
19:17:07	<int-e>	it's just hard to make formal :P
19:17:42	<int-e>	> id id id id id () -- what's the arity of `id` again
19:17:44	<lambdabot>	()
19:18:22	<int-e>	(arity is the hard one; once you have an arity larger than one, partial applications will make sense)
19:18:22	<monochrom>	Just like there is no conflict between "natural numbers are >= 1" and "natural numbers are >= 0" because they are using different definitions of "natural numbers".
19:18:37	<monochrom>	And that one won't be resolved for the next 1000 years.
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19:19:16	<EvanR>	I was confronted by someone who demanded to know is pluto or is pluto not a planet
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19:19:45	<EvanR>	even if I was someone who could weigh in on this, the whole question is bad lol
19:19:47	<dolio>	The answer is, who cares?
19:20:16	<geekosaur>	"The only correct statement about Pluto is that it is jointly captured by the Sun and Neptune."
19:20:29	<geekosaur>	personally I think the whole notion of defining "planet" is a lose
19:21:25	<geekosaur>	move Mercury out past Neptune and it's just a rock, not a planet any more
19:21:29	<EvanR>	maybe arity in haskell is like pluto xD
19:22:00	<int-e>	It's fine either way, what's weird is that the status changed, and we cope with that in different ways :P
19:22:42	<EvanR>	so planethood is an exercise in cache invalidation? xD
19:23:14	<int-e>	In german, Pluto not being a planet broke a nice mnemoinic that in particular relied on Neptun[e] and "neun"="nine" having the same initial letters.
19:23:49	<int-e>	EvanR: hehe
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19:24:47	<c_wraith>	Whenever they find the next planet out there, should it be given a name so that the german mnemonic works again?
19:25:04	<EvanR>	it's already called planet nine xD
19:25:08	<monochrom>	Move Mercury past Neptune and it's still a programming language, though. ;)
19:25:34	<c_wraith>	hmm.. is Pluto planet nein?
19:25:41	<monochrom>	hahaha
19:25:53	<int-e>	EvanR: Or... how many Teslas do we have to ship to Pluto to make it a planet. (Okay, what's our off-topic channel again? -blah?)
19:26:06	<monochrom>	-offtopic
19:26:07	<geekosaur>	-offtopic
19:26:12	<EvanR>	what happened to -blah
19:26:14	<monochrom>	But I'm biased :)
19:26:23	<monochrom>	I don't like -blah
19:26:44	<EvanR>	right there's still two even after the freenodalypse
19:27:09	<geekosaur>	how many people in it?
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19:54:18	<[itchyjunk]>	[Leary], ah, i was going to do prod [] = 0; prod (x:xs) = x * prod xs but thought using inbuilts are better
19:54:45	<geekosaur>	why 0?
19:55:09	<[itchyjunk]>	hmm, empty list should evaluate to
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19:55:21	<[itchyjunk]>	hmmmmm i didn't put much thought into it i guess
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19:55:35	<geekosaur>	I'd go for the multiplicative identity
19:55:36	<[itchyjunk]>	oh, maybe i want 1. else i always get 0?
19:55:40	<[itchyjunk]>	right
19:57:31	<[itchyjunk]>	qrpnxz, i want to apply sum to the result of a function map go xs so i want sum.(map go xs) ?
19:57:50	<monochrom>	sum (map go xs)
19:58:34	<[itchyjunk]>	hmmm f.g x = f(g(x)) so your syntax is the RHS kind right?
19:58:41	<[itchyjunk]>	but how would i write it using the . operator?
19:58:47	<geekosaur>	also I'd beware of using (.) without a space in front, thanks to RecordDotSyntax
19:58:56	<monochrom>	If you want to use . you have to learn: map go xs = (map go) xs
19:59:28	<monochrom>	DO NOT USE INTUITION
19:59:32	<[itchyjunk]>	:x
20:00:03	<geekosaur>	and remember that (f . g) x = f (g x)
20:01:02	<[itchyjunk]>	(sum . map) go xs => sum (map go xs) so this would be the right syntax i think :x
20:01:37	<monochrom>	Well let's turn the crank on that one too. No intuition, just algebra.
20:01:49	<monochrom>	(sum . map) go xs = ((sum . map) go) xs
20:02:05	<monochrom>	= (sum (map go)) xs
20:02:14	<monochrom>	= sum (map go) xs
20:02:57	<monochrom>	You know what, maybe stick to "(f x) y" and don't write "f x y" for the few next days.
20:04:10	<monochrom>	Backus gave us two valuable inventions, and people are throwing both away.
20:04:33	<[itchyjunk]>	I'll try to be more explicit till I get the issue mentally sorted :x
20:05:12	<monochrom>	One is you can write "z = (x + y) * t", you don't have to write "tmp = x + y; z = tmp * t"
20:05:21	→	APic joins (apic@apic.name)
20:05:59	<monochrom>	The other is functional programming so you can use algebra to predict what your code means, you don't have to use misguided intuition.
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20:06:12	<monochrom>	Well, OOP people hate the first, and all programmers hate the second.
20:07:12	<[itchyjunk]>	I shall surpass them both and hate both!
20:07:33	<monochrom>	Well yeah "all programmers" include OOP people too.
20:08:22	<monochrom>	Yes they truly testify that they prefer "tmp = x.add(y); z = tmp.mul(t)"
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20:09:07	<monochrom>	They're like "do not even write x.add(y).mul(t) or t.mul(x.add(y))"
20:09:22	<geekosaur>	welcome back to cobol
20:09:34	<monochrom>	OK, the JQuery people are beginning to appreciate the benefits of the former.
20:09:52	<qrpnxz>	geekosaur: does anybody actually use recorddotsyntax knowing lenses are a thing?
20:10:02	<geekosaur>	yes, sadly
20:10:24	<qrpnxz>	🥹
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20:31:47	<maerwald>	that's like saying "does anybody actually use debian, knowing nix is a thing?"
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20:39:13	<monochrom>	I think I may disagree :)
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20:39:56	<monochrom>	But not strongly. I may see your point too.
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20:41:54	<maerwald>	Many advanced haskellers use lenses only occasionally. Definitely not something you want to bother beginners with. If my code is simple, I'm not gonna import optics. So there's definitely a gap to be filled.
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20:42:50	<monochrom>	Perhaps let's try: Does anyone actually use RecordDotNotation, knowing that selector application exists? >:)
20:43:45	<monochrom>	(Selector application means: whereas record dot notation says "o.f", selector application says "f o".)
20:44:32	<monochrom>	And I do take that attitude. I don't teach do-notation to my students, because >>= already exists.
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20:45:10	<monochrom>	And it is especially because my students are beginners.
20:45:35	<monochrom>	No need to distract them with lenses, dot notation, or do notation >:)
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20:48:44	<monochrom>	Oh yeah, in my unix-and-C course, I recommend students to install ubuntu, not debian or nix. :)
20:49:04	<monochrom>	But that's really just because school lab has gone for ubuntu.
20:49:13	<qrpnxz>	monochrom: selectors can't set :)
20:49:24	<monochrom>	If school lab uses Solaris, I might have recommended installing your own Solaris too haha.
20:49:44	<monochrom>	Does RecordDotNotation allow setting? Like o.f = 4?
20:49:58	<qrpnxz>	probably or it would be extremely useless
20:50:08	<monochrom>	OK so you don't actually know.
20:50:14	<monochrom>	Well, I don't actually know either.
20:50:19	<qrpnxz>	i'll look one sec
20:50:39	<monochrom>	I wouldn't be surprised either way though.
20:51:03	<qrpnxz>	i'd be very surprised if it didn't because then it would just be the worse extension ever lol
20:51:06	<monochrom>	I have seen how pointless OOP-minded people can be when they just whine about syntax.
20:52:00	<qrpnxz>	ya know, the GHC manual doesn't actually say. Maybe it's get only i can't believe it
20:52:20	<monochrom>	OK sorry, s/people/ideas/
20:52:27	<qrpnxz>	lol
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20:53:31	<exarkun>	https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/282/files#diff-05d6456bad56dfbda9ecf23d6daa02dd50f13df533fefd56bdbb1de11dc7a1d8R52
20:53:42	<exarkun>	I guess it does allow setting?
20:54:01	<qrpnxz>	seems so
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20:54:06	<qrpnxz>	given a quick skim
20:54:49	<geekosaur>	it's pointless. it steals syntax to do what can already be done multiple ways
20:55:01	<monochrom>	OK but it is restricted to a fairly specific context.
20:55:10	<geekosaur>	just to make people happy who expect . to be a record separator
20:55:40	<monochrom>	It doesn't do standalone "o.f = 4", it only does "r(o.f = 4)" when o is a field of and outer record r.
20:56:21	<monochrom>	Not to deny that it helps that use case.
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21:00:20	<monochrom>	SML has record dot syntax but it has that since day 1 together with the decision to use o for function application. That's right you write "(sum o map f) xs".
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21:00:53	<monochrom>	Whereas in the Haskell case it is duct-taped.
21:00:56	<qrpnxz>	an infix op that is just a letter. Seems like a smell for the parser
21:01:05	<qrpnxz>	but looks nice for the most part
21:01:32	<monochrom>	I would not call it duct-taped if the proponents made a concession and chose a different symbol so that the parser didn't have to suck.
21:02:01	<monochrom>	Yeah I think I heard that writing a parser for SML was not easy :)
21:02:31	<monochrom>	Whereas Haskell says you can write like x `div` y,
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21:02:58	<qrpnxz>	we have so few symbols on standard keyboard that every character is overloaded to hell unfortunately. I wish using more unicode was norm. Like i put my keyboard into haskell mode and my numpad gets keys for lambda symbol, composition symbol and so on
21:02:59	<monochrom>	SML says you make a declaration "infixl 6 div" and now you write x div y
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21:04:33	<qrpnxz>	monochrom: oh wow lol
21:06:10	<monochrom>	So basically the parser builds a preliminary parse tree that is known to be likely wrong and later fix it after knowing that div and o are infix operators.
21:06:25	<monochrom>	err, maybe s/parse tree/abstract syntax tree/
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21:07:01	<monochrom>	It's doable because "wrong" just means wrong shape, the data are OK.
21:07:31	<geekosaur>	ghc does the same in a sense, because it can't know fixities until it has parsed the whole thing
21:07:39	<tomsmeding>	In agda you can: if_then_else_ : Bool -> t -> t -> t ; if True x _ = x ; if False _ y = y. And then you can write `if a == b then 1 else 2`
21:07:54	<monochrom>	I think you also have to do something like that to Haskell, on the ground that operator precedence declarations can also come in late.
21:07:57	<tomsmeding>	Talking about weird fixities
21:08:03	<monochrom>	Yeah, that.
21:08:11	<qrpnxz>	that's some smalltalk level idioms right there haha
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21:09:06	hpc	. o O ( breadth-first parser )
21:09:24	<tomsmeding>	This is also the reason why you have to write (1 , 2) for a pair in agda, as opposed to (1, 2). Indeed, the pair construction operator is defined as _,_ and (1, 2) would be parsed as two tokens: 1, and 2
21:09:42	<monochrom>	:'(
21:09:54	<tomsmeding>	Or maybe it only holds for letters, a , b
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21:10:17	<tomsmeding>	Numbers _might_ be excluded from the game, not sure
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21:12:56	<qrpnxz>	given that if then else example, pretty sure that language is super not context-free. What are compile times like?
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21:13:35	<hpc>	parsing isn't the slow part of agda
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21:13:48	<monochrom>	I think this is just a small deviation from CFG, it won't cost really a lot of parsing time.
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21:16:57	<int-e>	qrpnxz: Here's a little secret... virtually no programming languages are context-free. The CFG is just a first approximation which is useful because programmers tend to understand the grammar, and because with some care, you can feed it to a parser generator and get a kind of pre-parser. You'll still need to check a ton of things... like matching identifiers, declarations and definitions...
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21:17:19	<monochrom>	:)
21:17:29	<monochrom>	As long as the post-processing is linear-time we're fine.
21:17:37	<int-e>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck is a context-free language ;-)
21:17:55	<monochrom>	http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/declare-before-use.xhtml
21:22:51	<darkling>	int-e: But not regular. :)
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21:31:35	<qrpnxz>	int-e: what's why i said "super". Though i think Go is context-free, or about as context-free as you get
21:31:41	<qrpnxz>	:)
21:32:35	<qrpnxz>	forth and scheme also context free afaik
21:34:05	<Rembane>	IIRC APL is contectful
21:34:12	<Rembane>	*contextful
21:35:51	<monochrom>	Scheme still has a define-before-use condition, so it is not context-free.
21:36:01	<monochrom>	Shell scripting and Python though...
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21:38:22	<qrpnxz>	that's only relevant in the interpretation of the program, not the parsing
21:40:34	<int-e>	monochrom: python has indentation, try capturing that :P
21:40:58	<hpc>	python has define-before-use too, just in a much sillier way
21:41:34	<hpc>	functions get defined in order, but the functions they call don't need to be valid until you actually call that function
21:41:49	<hpc>	so you can define two functions out of order just fine, but you can't do
21:41:53	<hpc>	foo(); def foo(): ...
21:42:06	<qrpnxz>	worse of both static and dynamic, nice
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21:43:35	<monochrom>	Oh oops I forgot python layout hehe
21:46:08	<qrpnxz>	i refuse to use python. I think i haven't touched it in many years
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21:47:06	<geekosaur>	every time I touch it I get forcibly reminded of why I don't use it
21:47:08	<hpc>	i like to say i learned haskell because i was too stupid for python
21:47:21	<hpc>	only half joking
21:47:32	<hpc>	*and that's only half joking
21:47:43	<exarkun>	What's the non-joke half
21:48:04	<qrpnxz>	lol
21:49:02	<exarkun>	(err maybe that's the opposite of what I meant to say)
21:49:11	<monochrom>	I have a similar sentiment. I choose static typing because I'm too stupid for everything Alan Kay boasts about being dynamic and oh so flexible.
21:50:30	<monochrom>	Dijkstra has a similar sentiment too. He promotes doing algebra because he (and I) is too stupid for "intuitive" thinking. ("thinking")
21:52:07	<hpc>	fun fact, the latin root of "intuitive" is "no teaching"
21:52:42	<hpc>	try not to think about the etymology of "amused" while being amused by that fact :P
21:53:25	<monochrom>	heh now you've got me curious. But I'll ask m-w.com
21:53:31	<hpc>	also try not to think about how that fact is wrong
21:53:41	hpc	. o O ( next time google it first )
21:54:18	<maerwald>	hpc: the trick when writing python is not to try to write correct code. That's why it's hard for you
21:54:41	<qrpnxz>	dynamism can be nice, but having everything be dynamic is like too much desert. Just gives you tummy ache. Haskell has deferred type error and Data.Dynamic and such, and i'm sure it gets used, but it's just a totally waste to not specify actual type in 99.999% of cases
21:54:51	<qrpnxz>	i'm too lazy for dynamic typing xD
21:55:16	<maerwald>	qrpnxz: well, Haskells complete lack for good structural typing is not so amusing
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21:55:20	<qrpnxz>	well, i say specify but i don't even have to do that lol
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21:55:47	<maerwald>	but these things are more important when doing frontend stuff... I don't do frontend in Haskell.
21:55:54	<hpc>	maerwald: my problem with python is the opposite, i spend 10 minutes typing out a thing and then another hour and a half trying to find all the dumb type errors
21:56:00	<monochrom>	Haha OK, I haven't found the etymology of "amused", but yeah "intuitive" does not trace back to "no teaching".
21:56:06	<qrpnxz>	maerwald: i think you can do that with Generic
21:56:14	<maerwald>	qrpnxz: not really
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21:56:15	<geekosaur>	a-muse
21:56:15	<hpc>	if i tried to be more correct in python maybe it would work better
21:56:18	<qrpnxz>	you can also safely coerce types with same rep
21:56:34	<hpc>	or maybe i would just spend 6 hours typing out a thing and another 3 trying to find all the dumb type errors
21:56:37	<geekosaur>	(without a muse, remembering that the muses were quasideities)
21:56:46	<qrpnxz>	but really the only duck-typing i care about type classes can do so
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23:36:54	<yin>	maerwald: haskell lacks good structural typing?
23:38:33	<maerwald>	yeah, see typescript or purescript
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23:42:11	<dlock>	is there a way to run a haskell code snippet in a haskell program?
23:42:57	<dlock>	like with a Read and Show instance?
23:42:57	<geekosaur>	strictly speaking, yes. if you expect ot to be able to access the running program, no
23:43:11	<geekosaur>	(it would run in its own execution context)
23:43:15	<dlock>	the program is rerun on different snippets
23:43:18	<geekosaur>	*it to
23:43:34	<geekosaur>	take a look at the hint library, or Mueval if you want sandboxing
23:43:35	<c_wraith>	I mean, ghci exists. You can do anything ghci does. That doesn't mean it's easy...
23:43:49	<dlock>	"i can do anything ghci does"
23:43:54	<dlock>	this sounds promising
23:44:22	<geekosaur>	working with the ghc api directly is also possible but is noticeably harder than using hint or mueval
23:45:08	<dlock>	ah, used for lambdabot, perfect
23:45:33	<dlock>	im not sure if hacking with the GHC tools is a good idea, id rather keep them to a minimal
23:46:02	<dlock>	i doubt they would be good to work with unless on some really powerful footing, which might bloat them
23:46:11	<dlock>	i guess these other packages provide user functionality
23:46:25	<geekosaur>	they're friendlier wrappers for ghc-api
23:46:49	<hpc>	> "mueval is how lambdabot " ++ "does this"
23:46:51	<lambdabot>	"mueval is how lambdabot does this"
23:47:05	<dlock>	so suppose i want not only to save some data inupts and outputs to a function, but also the function that was run to produce the outputs from the inputs
23:47:43	<geekosaur>	you would only be able to save it in source form; there's no way to serialize or load bytecode
23:48:00	<dlock>	id expect this to be something like "the Show instance is valid haskell
23:48:04	<dlock>	"
23:48:11	<geekosaur>	hypothetically you might be able to do the equivalent of -fobject-code, but that puts you squarely into direct ghc-api territory
23:48:30	<dlock>	i dont want to have to save whole modules
23:48:47	<dlock>	and i dont want the interface to incorperating to be done at the linking stage
23:49:14	<dlock>	basically i just want the program to read the "function" the same way as it reads the "value"
23:49:37	<c_wraith>	by contrast, hint gives you tools to pass values from your code into and out of evaluated code, but they're rather awkward
23:49:45	<dlock>	basically because trying to output a module you use to where you want to save them to is difficult
23:50:31	<dlock>	c_wraith: i cant picture this concept of passing functions through evaluated code?
23:50:48	<dlock>	or values
23:51:13	<dlock>	i wouldnt expect it could be evaluated before it recieves input
23:51:15	<c_wraith>	well, I suppose that's not quite accurate. It's easy to evaluate things which produce functions that run on any value you want.
23:51:40	<dlock>	ok like some partially evaluated expression stuck awaiting an input arg
23:51:52	<dlock>	do we lazily consume inputs like that?
23:52:00	<c_wraith>	I mean.. it's just.. functions.
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23:52:10	<dlock>	anyway, thats probably not how these libraries are going to have me write it
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23:52:54	<dlock>	ok, so the function in question is eg. either a net or a matrix
23:53:13	<dlock>	and we dont know, but we want to save matricies with matrix input output pairs, and nets with net input output pairs
23:53:23	<dlock>	so the user never tries to apply the inputs to the wrong function
23:54:04	<dlock>	its a version control thing. i cant just save the input output pairs and have the function be part of changing code
23:54:19	<dlock>	ill never know which function they were for, so i need to save the functions
23:55:27	<dlock>	imagine if it was the memory state for a markov trading model, and i train something that gives me good matrix and when i uplaod it it tries to parametrise a net with it... must provide actual model encoding along with state
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23:56:14	<dlock>	my task seems like its using hint or mueval to express matrix multiplication and net evaluation
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23:56:33	<dlock>	and anything else i might want to use as a parametric model but havent yet thought of, which is important
23:57:26	<dlock>	parametric models is a big thing, might be worth a package of its own seeing how this haskell infrastructure seems particularly well suited
23:58:19	<dlock>	so can i do something like f = readFromFile "pathToFunction.notHs"
23:58:42	<dlock>	and get like IO (?)

All times are in UTC on 2022-07-17.