Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2022-07-20 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:36:39 <Axman6> @hoogle Eq a => a -> [a] -> [[a]]
00:36:39 <lambdabot> Happstack.Server.Internal.MessageWrap splitList :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [[a]]
00:36:39 <lambdabot> Data.GI.CodeGen.Util splitOn :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [[a]]
00:36:39 <lambdabot> Hledger.Utils splitAtElement :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [[a]]
00:36:51 <Axman6> @more
00:36:55 <Axman6> :(
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01:26:29 <talismanick> How exactly do pipes and Conduit improve on stream processing (how Kiselyov described somewhat-practical lazy I/O) and what do they do differently from each other?
01:26:30 <talismanick> https://okmij.org/ftp/Streams.html
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01:29:58 <jackdk> IME, pipes is elegant but I've never successfully constructed a program with it, conduit has a bunch of "pragmatic" concessions that actually make things harder (I still have no idea how to teach amazonka how to use a connect-and-resume conduit as a source, for instance) but because Snoyman and co. did the hard yards building fundamental industrial libs like HTTP clients, it's used everywhere,
01:29:58 <jackdk> steamly promises a lot but seems to be unstable (I booted it from a project after a minor version change made using it for file-watching impossible in a way that was previously possible; it may have improved since)
01:29:58 <jackdk> I like `streaming`, as it has the type that makes the most sense to me, and I've successfully written a program using it.
01:30:23 <talismanick> jackdk: Alright, I'll take a look
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01:32:16 <jackdk> This means that if you're doing simple things like "stream a file through http-client", conduit is likely a fine choice because adapting between stream types is probably more annoying. But if I was doing a lot of stream transformations within a single program, I would probably lean towards streaming and transform to other streaming libs at the edge of my program
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01:37:56 <marcusxavier> How can I write this function withou tail?
01:38:06 <marcusxavier> skips :: [a] -> [[a]]
01:38:08 <marcusxavier> skips [] = []
01:38:10 <marcusxavier> skips xs = xs : skips (tail xs)
01:38:12 <marcusxavier> y
01:38:14 <marcusxavier> Yes
01:38:34 <marcusxavier> It's from CIS 194 week's 3
01:38:36 <marcusxavier> question 1
01:38:38 <marcusxavier> https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis1940/spring13/hw/03-rec-poly.pdf
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01:50:39 <marcusxavier> I found tails function
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02:02:08 <jackdk> marcusxavier: match `(x:xs)` instead of `xs`
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02:30:55 <dsal> @src tail
02:30:55 <lambdabot> tail (_:xs) = xs
02:30:55 <lambdabot> tail [] = error "Prelude.tail: empty list"
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02:46:20 <qrpnxz> jackdk: i really appreciate that overview of stream libs thanks
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03:19:07 <qrpnxz> i haven't touched conduit. Streaming is attractive and i want to learn it. Although the type has me 🤨, the examples have me 😮.
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03:27:21 <qrpnxz> by streaming i mean the streaming lib lol
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03:53:05 <jackdk> `streaming`'s core type is imho one of its most attractive features
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04:07:15 <qrpnxz> i mean, it looks amazing. I just don't understand it too well. But more I read more i appreciate the library. Kind of like when I first learn about traversable i think this is how i feel about Stream atm
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04:14:17 <davean> jackdk: what do you view as special about "Stream f m r"?
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04:14:35 <jackdk> qrpnxz: https://github.com/ivan-m/LambdaJAM-Streaming-exercises
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04:16:08 <qrpnxz> jackdk: thanks!
04:16:39 <jackdk> davean: I find it the easiest to understand out of the libs I've used. Also the `f` parameter and the left-strict pair `Of` that it's often used with seem clever. I should probably have also mentioned `machines` when I was writing about streaming libs but I'm even worse at that one than I am `pipes`
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04:17:27 <davean> haha, 'machines' is much more than streaming.
04:17:47 <davean> You can setup entire networks
04:18:20 <jackdk> yeah we spoke a bit about it many years ago.
04:18:50 <davean> conduit and stuff at least handles fan-in
04:19:30 <davean> I don't really know streaming though, other than looking at it briefly, so no idea how it does. Its type looks like just a way to talk about free monads.
04:19:44 <davean> It looks like you're just building a computation?
04:20:48 <davean> I should dig into it at some point
04:21:25 <jackdk> it's an arbitrary and possibly-infinite interleaving of functor and monad layers basically. The most common functor is `data Of a b = !a :< b` so you get `Stream (Of a) m r` where the `a`s are evaluated to whnf at least
04:22:27 <davean> Right, isn't that basicly what I said?
04:23:00 <qrpnxz> is it? lol
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04:25:18 <jackdk> Probably. I think it's a lot like `FreeT` but you don't necessarily have to have single `f` layers between your `m` layers
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04:25:40 <davean> True, you can have a variable count
04:25:55 <davean> though I'm not sure how meaningful that is given 'pure'
04:26:12 <davean> maybe I'm missing something but that seems equivilent at first glance
04:29:13 <jackdk> I don't think it'll make much of a difference either, aside from a bit of extra packing/unpacking
04:29:47 <davean> Yah thats an optimization of value variable based on architecture and workload
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04:54:52 <Clinton[m]> With "stack" I'm getting a warning about putting... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/7a538c60144e63a7ed04750a8574ce237b92da3e)
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05:13:46 <Axman6> Clinton[m]: FYI, your message was too long for IRC and was cut off after putting (with a link to the rest of the message). Generally on IRC we keep messages short and use paste sites for sharing lots of code or longer questions
05:13:48 <Axman6> @where paste
05:13:48 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
05:17:50 <Axman6> As for your actualy question, I haven't used stack for a long time, and I don't know if it's kept up with GHC/Cabal's development
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05:39:16 <cdepillabout[m]> Clinton: There's an issue on the stack repo about using stack with `GHC2021`: https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/5739. Maybe this is related to what you're seeing?
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05:40:39 <talismanick> What's the SoTA in constraint solving with Haskell?
05:41:33 <talismanick> namely for package versioning and resolution
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06:18:23 <[exa]> talismanick: that's a pretty specific area of constraint solving tbh
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06:19:22 <[exa]> but the last time I checked the consensus was "translate to SAT and hope"
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07:16:50 <Inst> also, did I just find a hole in the functor laws?
07:16:57 <Inst> define fmap as const id
07:17:02 <Inst> now everything is a functor
07:17:40 <Inst> as long as it satisfies the kind requirement ( * -> * )
07:18:04 <[exa]> it is not, it can't produce `f b` from `f a` given `a->b`
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07:20:25 <[exa]> :t [fmap, const id]
07:20:27 <lambdabot> Functor f => [(b -> b) -> f b -> f b]
07:21:39 <[exa]> (it's insufficiently polymorphic, you'd need to make sure that the 2nd argument doesn't unify with the output)
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07:24:57 <n1essa> I'm having trouble googling this, what is this syntax in haskell called? #{size XClassHint}
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07:25:54 <Axman6> Inst: you don't get to choose what a and b are, the user of fmap does, by passing a function, any function, to it
07:25:55 <n1essa> ohh it's hsc specific
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07:27:13 <[exa]> n1essa: the closest from haskell is probably MagicHash, and maybe OverloadedLabels
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07:27:46 <[exa]> but yeah this is likely something completely different. :]
07:27:46 <n1essa> i found it, it's part of hsc2hs
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07:28:54 <Inst> btw what are your guys experiences with the smalltalk community?
07:28:57 <Inst> I'm pretty much stalled out
07:29:01 <Inst> so monochrome wins, I'm a poser
07:29:25 <Axman6> I have never met anyone from the smalltalk community
07:29:59 <Inst> also, if you guys can be helpful, can you come up with some projects for me to do?
07:30:13 <[exa]> in haskell?
07:30:22 <Inst> yeah, but simple ones ;_;
07:30:26 <[exa]> wait I'll fetch the looooooooooong list
07:30:31 <Inst> thanks <3
07:30:41 <Inst> i had a lot of fun exploring Haskell as "definable pseudocode"
07:30:47 <Axman6> work your way through these, they are pointless but extremely important: https://blog.tmorris.net/posts/20-intermediate-haskell-exercises/
07:30:53 <Inst> but I'm not sure if writing Haskell programs as pseudocode, then defining them to be correct, is marketable
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07:31:29 <[exa]> Inst: if you call it "writing in EDSLs", it's actually a perfectly valid methodology
07:31:43 <Inst> i mean marketing
07:31:45 <Axman6> I picked that based on your Functor question, it feels like you're at a good point to attempt them
07:31:51 <Inst> also ewww
07:31:57 <Inst> error "todo"? why that instead of undfeined?
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07:32:29 <Axman6> because you're supposed to replace those todos and it will complain at you when you try to use something you haven't defined yet
07:32:33 <[exa]> `error "I want to do this in the future"` is a bit more explanatory than "haha nope undefined"
07:32:39 <Axman6> undefined is just error "undefined" after all
07:32:54 <Axman6> @src undefined
07:32:54 <lambdabot> undefined = error "Prelude.undefined"
07:33:18 <Inst> https://github.com/liamzee/movies-hw/blob/master/server/app/MoviesServer.hs
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07:33:22 <Inst> what recent shit I've been doing looks like
07:34:09 <Axman6> I guess if you're using servant you're a bit poast those exercises
07:34:26 <n1essa> sweet i was able to add a missing method to X11 library.. i should probably figure out how to actually submit this
07:34:59 <Inst> we rushed along
07:35:10 <[exa]> n1essa: if the library has github, just send a PR, devs will usually guide you through the rest
07:35:15 <Inst> i stopped tutoring (at least temporarily) because the stuff I wanted to learn, I couldn't get
07:35:18 <Inst> like conduit / pipes
07:35:24 <Inst> still not sure whether to use conduit or pipes
07:35:39 <Inst> i still can't hack Aeson to work directly with types of Value instead of through the JSON interface
07:35:46 <Axman6> do you want to be impressed by the beauty of the abstraction? or write working programs?
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07:36:14 <Axman6> for the former, use pipes, for the latter, use conduit. Also see jackdk's discussion of the merits of the various streaming libraries a couple of hours ago
07:36:16 <Inst> write working programs
07:38:23 <Inst> how bad is the code quality there?
07:38:43 <[exa]> pretty good tbh
07:39:13 <sm> smalltalk & community are awesome. Still doing cool stuff and might take over the world one day
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07:40:39 <[exa]> Inst: btw what's the problem with aeson? you generally don't want to work directly with Value
07:42:08 <Inst> sm: I'm trying to talk smalltalkers into implementing smalltalk in Haskell for laughs
07:43:23 <maerwald[m]> Inst: use streamly, not conduit ;)
07:44:26 <Inst> basically, I tried to play code golf as much as I could with previous projects
07:44:38 <Inst> this time, I'm trying to be explicit with code, to the extent of using pattern synonyms to obscure Nothing
07:44:56 <Inst> on FP discord, btw, we're wondering if we can market Haskell as "functional pseudocode"
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07:47:32 <sm> for implementing a smalltalk VM, you want very fast low level code, zig or rust might be a better fit
07:48:00 <sm> smalltalk/FP crossover is interesting though I agree
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07:51:10 <sm> (also, smalltalk already has a very good VM that would be hard to match)
07:52:28 <Inst> nah, the smalltalkers just seem cool, reasonably academic
07:52:35 <Inst> and supposedly smalltalk OOP is OOP that works
07:52:42 <Inst> would be nice to get insights from their community, etc
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09:21:14 <Inst> can I ask about function calls and its effects on Haskell performance?
09:21:40 <Inst> is that why people like pointfree (pointless) so much?
09:23:03 <sm> they're fast. pointfree is about style and clarity, not (usually?) performance
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09:24:06 <apache2> pointless :D
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09:33:35 <tomsmeding> Pointfree style is not about performance in the overwhelming majority of cases
09:34:44 <tomsmeding> Converting `foo l = sum (map (*2) l)` to `foo = sum . map (*2)` makes zero difference on performance (modulo sidenotes about inlining, but this function is small anyway so doesn't matter here)
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09:41:53 <tomsmeding> I've heard said that eta-expanding `map (expensive y) l` to `map (\x -> expensive y x) l` can be slower because it would evaluate `expensive y` multiple times, but I can't seem to reproduce that now
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10:12:25 <Pickchea> Hey, when I define functions I usually choose the signature f :: a -> b -> b over f :: b -> a -> b so I can do things like f a . f b . f c $ x. But then I can't do left associative folds like foldl' f [x, y, z] and instead I have to use foldl' (flip f) [x, y, z]. So which argument order should I opt for in f? Why isn't foldl or its strict version defined as Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b?
10:16:13 <Pickchea> Sorry, let me try that again, that wasn't right.
10:16:26 <[exa]> Pickchea: I guess for foldl it's basically for leaving a bit of intuition about "what comes from right"
10:16:39 <[Leary]> > foldl f w [x,y,z]
10:16:41 <lambdabot> f (f (f w x) y) z
10:16:47 <[Leary]> > foldl (flip f) w [x,y,z]
10:16:48 <lambdabot> f z (f y (f x w))
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10:17:03 <[Leary]> It keeps things in intuitive order.
10:18:11 <Pickchea> Hey, when I define functions I usually choose the signature f :: a -> b -> b over f :: b -> a -> b so I can do things like f a . f b . f c $ x. But then I can't do left associative folds like foldl' f x as and instead I have to use foldl' (flip f) x as. So which argument order should I opt for in f? Why isn't foldl or its strict version defined as Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b?
10:18:15 <[exa]> anyway you're perfectly right that all accumulator-ish functions are done in a way so that the argument that is "mutated" is the last, and left/rightness of foldl simply doesn't fit that view
10:18:27 <Pickchea> (Sorry for the spam but had to correct that)
10:18:42 <[exa]> (there might be a flipped foldl around)
10:19:18 <tomsmeding> :t foldl . flip
10:19:19 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
10:19:25 <tomsmeding> :t foldr
10:19:26 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
10:19:30 <[exa]> (actually yeah there's flipfoldl' in Relude)
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10:21:11 <Pickchea> I see, thanks! Maybe foldl is defined that way to easily distinguish it from foldr by their signatures alone.
10:21:38 <tomsmeding> Ocaml actually goes even further than haskell and flips around the initial-value and list arguments: https://v2.ocaml.org/api/List.html (search for fold_left)
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10:22:53 <tomsmeding> Pickchea: it's also that foldl (*) z [a,b,c] == ((z*a)*b)*c and foldr (*) z [a,b,c] == a*(b*(c*z))
10:23:28 <tomsmeding> Whereas flipfoldl (*) z [a,b,c] == c * (b * (a * z)
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10:24:12 <tomsmeding> Which, in a sense, reverses the list in the process; the designers of the haskell prelude thought that was unintuitive, probably
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11:09:38 <chreekat> I have to check the type of foldl/foldr every time still
11:11:58 <hpc> there's a cool trick to remembering foldr
11:12:10 <hpc> imagine generalizing it to any type
11:12:25 <hpc> so say you have foldEither
11:12:44 <hpc> Either is "data Either a b = ...", so let's say foldEither produces a 'c'
11:13:25 <hpc> and then you put the types of each constructor in order, replacing 'Either a b' with 'c'
11:13:38 <hpc> Left :: a -> Either a b, Right :: b -> Either a b
11:13:55 <hpc> so foldEither :: (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> Either a b -> c
11:14:25 <hpc> if you do the same thing with lists, [] :: [a], and (:) :: a -> [a] -> [a]
11:14:42 <hpc> or, foldList :: b -> (a -> b -> b) -> [a] -> b
11:15:00 <hpc> and then because we're silly and inconsistent sometimes, flip those first two arguments :(
11:15:09 <hpc> but at least you can remember (a -> b -> b) that way
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11:16:31 <hpc> this pattern makes a "universal function" for that type (i forget the correct term)
11:17:03 <hpc> which can, with the right arguments, turn into any arbitrary function from your data type to something else
11:17:46 <hpc> so if you want to make a fold function for some complicated tree type or something, you can use this to write that function without thinking too hard :D
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11:31:14 <[Leary]> Catamorphism? Or, arguably, something like church or scott encoding. If you fiddle with the order there, it's `Either a b -> (forall c. (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> c)` and `[a] -> (forall b. b -> (a -> b -> b) -> b)` which isomorphisms.
11:31:31 <[Leary]> which are*
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12:37:47 <mastarija> Is there a way to capture raw request header data in servant?
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12:58:44 <safinaskar> where can i see dependent haskell progress?
12:59:01 <safinaskar> maybe there is some ghc branch somewhere?
13:00:39 <geekosaur[m]> Best to ask in #ghc
13:04:38 <safinaskar> ok
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17:47:11 <exarkun> this is a syntax error? https://gist.github.com/exarkun/f973f324e7cb1ff2d07e09bce518a159 at line 4, column 5, "parse error on input ‘\’"
17:49:26 <exarkun> (but why? or what's the right spelling?)
17:50:32 <exarkun> oh I forgot the field names.
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18:10:04 <marcusxavier> I've heard that isn't good use head and tail
18:10:11 <marcusxavier> why?
18:10:19 <marcusxavier> Can I use take and drop instead?
18:12:00 <dolio> Imagine you wrote thousands of lines of code, using `head` many times. Then one day when you run it you see this:
18:12:02 <dolio> > head []
18:12:04 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
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18:18:10 <fockerize> what's the recommended library for serialiazing a record data type?
18:18:58 <marcusxavier> @dolio, but is there a problem using take and drop?
18:18:58 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
18:19:26 <fockerize> I'm using brick for writing TUI applications and brick has a global state that i'd like to recover from next time i run the application
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18:19:46 <marcusxavier> And what can I use instead of head and tail? take 1 and drop 1?
18:21:53 <sm> interesting fockerize. I'd guess brick's internal state isn't serialisable, rather you'd save and reinitialiase your app state
18:22:16 <dolio> It depends on the situation. take and drop won't cause exceptions, but their behavior needs to be appropriate for where you're using them.
18:22:20 <sm> simplest way to start is show and read
18:23:26 <dolio> If you have a situation where a list is not supposed to be empty, then instead of using head/tail, it's probably better to do a custom pattern match with an error message that tells you where the wrong code is, for when you are mistaken about the list always being empty.
18:23:41 <dolio> Er, always non-empty.
18:24:32 <dolio> Or you can try to use a type that is never empty, but that may be more work than is saved from other problems.
18:24:56 <fockerize> sm: thx i'll take the easy path by using text files
18:24:58 <sm> another easy option is use headMay or headDef
18:26:55 <sm> you can make them a bit more readable by pretty printing with pretty-show or pretty-simple - IIRC some of these can prettify and still be readable
18:26:58 <dolio> Using `take 1` or `headMay` or whatever doesn't make much sense in lieu of `head`, because you need to do matching or similar on the results of those.
18:27:44 <monochrom> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/crossroad.xhtml
18:28:27 <monochrom> "if null xs then I can use head and tail else I can't" is an old XY-problem
18:30:25 <monochrom> headMay can also indicate an XYZ-problem.
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18:31:29 <monochrom> A person who has not accepted pattern matching as more fundamental is just going to use headMay and then reduce "if null xs then head and tail" to "if just m then fromJust"
18:32:13 <sm> there's times these tools fit nicely
18:32:14 <monochrom> s/just/isJust/
18:32:14 <[exa]> marcusxavier: `take` and `drop` are AFAIK total
18:32:37 <monochrom> @quote monochrom safeFromJust
18:32:37 <lambdabot> monochrom says: I use safeFromJust :: Maybe a -> Maybe a
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18:32:55 <JoeBloggs7003141> is there a difference between using d 7 2 and 7 `div` 2?
18:33:05 <[exa]> marcusxavier: which doesn't help much, esp. compared to the pattern matching that is unbelievably much more error-prone
18:33:06 <monochrom> take can have the wrong type.
18:33:10 <JoeBloggs7003141> div 7 2*
18:33:24 <[exa]> JoeBloggs7003141: not much, it's a syntactic sugar for the same thing
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18:33:46 <[exa]> JoeBloggs7003141: similarly you can convert 1+2 to: (+) 1 2
18:33:49 <monochrom> Also, again, A person who has not accepted pattern matching as more fundamental is just going to use and reduce "if null xs then head and tail" to "if null (take 1 xs) then head"
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18:34:12 <[exa]> uh I wrote "more error-prone"
18:34:19 <[exa]> it should be "less error-prone"
18:34:27 <[exa]> whoops.
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18:36:27 <JoeBloggs7003141> [exa]: alright, thanks
18:38:43 <[exa]> JoeBloggs7003141: you can even kindof mix it, just as you can write (+ 1) as a shortcut for (\x -> x + 1), people tend to write (`elem` someSet) as a shortcut for (\x -> elem x someSet)
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18:41:14 <JoeBloggs7003141> cool cool
18:41:21 <[exa]> I wouldn't recommend overdoing this, but in places it can make the code super readable. Consider "f `on` show" versus "on f show" (on is from Data.Function, see here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.2.0/docs/Data-Function.html#v:on)
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18:43:07 <JoeBloggs7003141> a model solution to one problem was given as div x y instead of x `div` y which is why I was wondering
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18:49:06 <troydm> I have a lot of expressions like a <|> b <|> c
18:49:24 <troydm> anyway I can reduce them to something like somefunc [a,b,c]
18:49:43 <[exa]> troydm: choice
18:49:44 <[exa]> :t choice
18:49:45 <lambdabot> error:
18:49:46 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: choice
18:49:46 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘choose’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
18:49:48 <[exa]> oh noes.
18:49:57 <tomsmeding> > filter (`elem` [1..5]) [-5..10]
18:49:59 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5]
18:50:03 <glguy> :t asum
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18:50:05 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
18:50:25 <monochrom> Sometimes I teach "div x y" and not bother to teach "x `div` y".
18:50:29 <[exa]> ah yes, choice is specific to parsecs. Thanks glguy. :]
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18:50:44 <troydm> actually I'm using megaparsec
18:50:47 <troydm> let me check
18:50:57 <monochrom> But eager students handing in "x `div` y" are totally fine.
18:51:15 <troydm> attoparsec has it
18:51:19 <glguy> What about the ones writing: x` div `y ?
18:51:29 <monochrom> Hrm, will it work?
18:51:42 <monochrom> > let {x=5; y=1} in x` div `y
18:51:44 <lambdabot> 5
18:51:56 <monochrom> I think my students never thought of that :)
18:52:20 <glguy> > 10` div `do 2+3
18:52:22 <lambdabot> 2
18:52:37 <monochrom> ooohhhhh
18:52:54 <monochrom> Now people will "learn" that do "saves parentheses"
18:53:03 <[exa]> troydm: I remember using choice with megaparsec too but can't hoogle it, hopefully they didn't remove it
18:53:06 <glguy> You don't want to use up all your parentheses in one place
18:53:55 <troydm> isn't it same as foldl1 (<|>)
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18:55:15 <[exa]> ah it's imported there from Control.Monad.Combinators, where it is defined as asum, which is IIRC 'foldr (<|>) empty'
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18:55:41 <[exa]> (with foldl it could not shortcircuit)
18:56:13 <troydm> [exa]: I don't understand, explain
18:56:25 <troydm> what shorcircuit you are talking about
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18:56:54 <[exa]> e.g. if you gave it an infinite list of possibilities it could not succeed on the first one with foldl
18:57:23 <troydm> well I'll always have finite set of parsers
18:57:28 <troydm> so not sure if I need it
18:58:10 <[exa]> then with foldr you at least do not need to evaluate all levels of the nested <|> everytime
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19:06:06 <JoeBloggs7003141> I made a mistake https://paste.tomsmeding.com/6cAXmqqI the tested passed exercise 10 but I didn't use recursion, would there be a case where it wouldn't work
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19:08:25 <[exa]> JoeBloggs7003141: that's some kind of exercise that required you to use the recursion?
19:09:23 <[exa]> otherwise I guess the definitions are more or less compatible (except for the corner cases, such as when the integers overflow)
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20:13:51 <Codex> what's the idea behind monoid?
20:15:36 <geekosaur> it generalizes the notion of "combining"
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20:18:26 <geekosaur> more precisely, it's about combining with an identity, such that there is something you can combine that doesn't change anything. (without the identity, it's a semigroup.)
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20:21:01 <int-e> It may be more useful to consider examples. Strings (concatenation, and the empty string as neutral element). Addition and mutliplication of numbers (not floating point). Composition of functions of type a -> a.
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20:23:47 <monochrom> You have an associative 2-argument operator, and it has an identity element. That's all. Yes you should look at examples, but you should also find that all examples agree that it's a pretty easy and common thing.
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23:34:50 <dmj`> is there something like a gmconcat, but done field-wise, assuming a record has fields of all the same monoidal type
23:35:08 <dmj`> I can write it, but wonder if someone else has already.
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23:36:03 <dmj`> e.g. data Foo = Foo { bar,baz,woz :: Sum Int }, gmconcat (Foo 1 1 1) = 3
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23:46:01 <koala_man> is there a way to disable the 1TB virtual allocation the ghc rts does by default? It does not play well with qemu, so docker-on-mac is basically unable to run haskell binaries on m1 chips
23:46:09 <koala_man> x86_64 binaries that is
23:48:09 <geekosaur> you have to rebuild ghc to get a rebuilt rts without it
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23:49:15 <koala_man> how would I have to rebuild it?
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23:52:09 <geekosaur> --disable-large-address-space
23:53:15 <Clinton[m]> I've got a question about generics. I've been using `f (Generic.from x)`, and by adding a few instances this quite nicely gives me a runtime structure with all the fields and metadata that I can then manipulate using ordinary functions. But I also would like to do something like `f (Generic.from (undefined :: a))`, just to get the information about the structure of `a`, but not including the data of a particular instance. Note if I create
23:53:16 <Clinton[m]> `y = A undefined undefined undefined` and then use `f (Generic.from y)` then I'm fine, as long as I don't access those actual fields in my final structure (laziness works here), but this is a bit annoying. Is there anyway I can use generics to get run time information about the structure of a datatype without actually creating an instance of that datatype?
23:53:50 <dolio> Does the -M RTS flag limit the size of the address space?
23:54:12 <Clinton[m]> * I've got a question about generics. I've been using `f (Generic.from x)` (f is actually a bunch of classes/instances). This quite nicely gives me a runtime structure with all the fields and metadata that I can then manipulate using ordinary functions. But I also would like to do something like `f (Generic.from (undefined :: a))`, just to get the information about the structure of `a`, but not including the data of a particular instance.
23:54:12 <Clinton[m]> Note if I create `y = A undefined undefined undefined` and then use `f (Generic.from y)` then I'm fine, as long as I don't access those actual fields in my final structure (laziness works here), but this is a bit annoying. Is there anyway I can use generics to get run time information about the structure of a datatype without actually creating an instance of that datatype?
23:54:20 <geekosaur> it doesn't prevent the 1TB preallocation, no
23:54:22 <koala_man> dolio: no
23:54:40 <geekosaur> sorry, reservation, nothing is actually allocated
23:54:53 <jackdk> Clinton[m]: write a typeclass that has a bunch of instances that explore the `Rep Foo` of your type `Foo`?
23:55:03 <koala_man> arguably it's allocating address space I guess
23:56:22 <koala_man> anyways, ulimit -v will stop the reservation and GHC still runs fine without it, but I'm not sure how it would be applied to docker-on-mac. I responded with that and will see what they say
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All times are in UTC on 2022-07-20.