Logs on 2022-07-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:14:53 | <qrpnxz> | ghcidefinitely |
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| 00:23:36 | <dibblego> | pfft I have ghci-8.8 |
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| 00:26:40 | <Axman6> | With functor, we have <$>, and its matching <&> which lets us write the function after the thing it's applied to. Is there a way to do that with applicative, like aArg1 <#> aArg2 <%> aArg3 <%> aArg4 <!> funOfArg1Arg2Arg3Arg4? |
| 00:27:37 | <Axman6> | The reason I want this is that the function in my case is a lambda, and having the named arguments to the lambda visually close to the the source of the arguments would make the code much easier to follow |
| 00:29:39 | <Axman6> | so it's more like: aArg1 <#> aArg2 <%> aArg3 <%> aArg4 <!> (\ |
| 00:30:04 | <Axman6> | so it's more like: aArg1 <#> aArg2 <%> aArg3 <%> aArg4 <!> (\a1 a2 a3 a4 -> ...) with the lambda probably on the following line |
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| 00:33:06 | <Axman6> | I guess there's a somewhat gross hack of: (\f -> f <$> a <*> b <*> c) (\a b c -> ...) |
| 00:34:35 | <[Leary]> | If you're willing to suffer nested tuples, you could use (<%>) = liftA2 (,) and then (<&>) as normal. But I'd rather use ApplicativeDo. |
| 00:39:18 | <Axman6> | yeah, I think traditional applicative style wil be clear enough. I've added comments to the argument expressions matching them with their arguments (the lambda is quite long and takes up like 20 lines constructing a large record) |
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| 00:40:14 | <geekosaur> | this sounds very ApplicativeDo+RecordWildcards+NamedFieldPuns to me |
| 00:41:48 | <Axman6> | While I agree, and I normally would, I'm technically using Daml, not Haskell, and we try to discourage revealing the wizard behind the curtain that is GHC |
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| 00:49:16 | <jackdk> | Axman6: can you build something up like (<*> arg1) . (<*> arg2) . (& fun) ? |
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| 01:40:12 | <monochrom> | <!> looks like flip <$>. <%> looks like flip <%>. Also right-associative instead of left-associative. |
| 01:40:22 | <monochrom> | err <%> looks like flip <*> |
| 01:41:03 | <monochrom> | Oh wait no, I don't know how to do <%> |
| 01:41:57 | <monochrom> | I know how to do arg4 ??? arg3 ??? arg2 ??? arg1 <!> fun4, heh |
| 01:43:17 | <Axman6> | yeah, bakwardas feels wrong though. I have a feeling it can be done with different fixities |
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| 02:10:32 | <jackdk> | Axman6: heh, I can do backwards with no new operators: `(fc <**>) . (fb <**>) . (fa <&>) $ \a b c -> ...` |
| 02:11:31 | <jackdk> | Axman6: oh, but grab the reverse composition operator from `Control.Arrow` or `Control.Category`: `(fa <&>) >>> (fb <**>) >>> (fc <**>) $ _` |
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| 02:31:20 | <marcusxavier> | Why most of other languages have features like Applicatives and Monoids? |
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| 02:47:31 | <pavonia> | Do they? |
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| 03:10:13 | <zzz> | applicarives and monoids are not features |
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| 03:37:59 | <dibblego> | this was written in 2005 https://github.com/functionaljava/functionaljava/blob/series/5.x/core/src/main/java/fj/Monoid.java |
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| 05:01:28 | <Inst> | question about unsafePerformIO |
| 05:01:36 | <Inst> | i can't get my types to match |
| 05:01:45 | <Inst> | i want to trigger an IO action before terminating my program |
| 05:02:29 | <Inst> | is this cursed code? |
| 05:02:30 | <Inst> | errorMessageBox message = unsafePerformIO $ notifyPopup "Program Aborted" message Error >> error ( unpack message ) |
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| 05:11:16 | <jackdk> | Axman6: be aware that my operator mess above performs effects in the reverse order! |
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| 05:12:25 | <dsal> | Inst: I'd just use bracket. But there's no way to guarantee that'll happen. |
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| 05:13:09 | <Inst> | notifyPopup is a method in the TinyFileDialogs package that triggers an attempt for the native OS to call a notifyPopup |
| 05:13:19 | <Inst> | it works with error (unpack message), without the error message |
| 05:15:32 | <jackdk> | @pl \f -> f <$> fa <*> fb <*> fc <*> fd |
| 05:15:32 | <lambdabot> | (<$> fa <*> fb <*> fc <*> fd) |
| 05:15:49 | <jackdk> | > (<$> fa <*> fb <*> fc <*> fd) _ |
| 05:15:50 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 05:15:50 | <lambdabot> | The operator ‘<$>’ [infixl 4] of a section |
| 05:15:50 | <lambdabot> | must have lower precedence than that of the operand, |
| 05:15:58 | <jackdk> | don't lie to me lambdabot =( |
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| 05:24:10 | <Axman6> | jackdk: yeah order also matters. I think it's possible but would likely need a few new operators and careful choice of fixity |
| 05:24:31 | <jackdk> | Axman6: fd = (<$> fa) >>> (<*> fb) >>> (<*> fc) $ \A B C -> D emits things in the correct order |
| 05:24:50 | <Axman6> | it's also awfully ugly :P |
| 05:25:12 | <jackdk> | I would put it in a where: `f <$> fa <*> fb <*> fc where f =` |
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| 05:36:23 | Axman6 | starts making a proposal for BackwardsLambda to allow for (expr <- a b c/) |
| 05:36:53 | <Axman6> | or (expr <- \a b c) |
| 05:37:14 | <jackdk> | `expr <- a b c/` |
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| 05:37:39 | <jackdk> | Axman6: would be a better proposal than `|>` and `<|` in `base` |
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| 09:56:13 | <kuribas> | Is there a code generation tool that can use types to generate code, the way idris does? |
| 09:57:29 | <kuribas> | for example generating the continuation monad implementation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brjFqXkUQv0 |
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| 10:03:31 | <[exa]> | kuribas: probably depends on what kind of code you want to generate |
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| 10:04:14 | <[exa]> | for haskell there's been djinn and derivatives, but afaik nothing really general in the direction of idris or agda |
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| 10:06:08 | <kuribas> | can djinn take existing local functions into consideration? |
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| 10:06:55 | <merijn> | kuribas: Sounds like you want to read pigworker's thesis :p |
| 10:07:02 | <merijn> | On Epigram/Epigram2 |
| 10:07:17 | <__monty__> | I think Coq has a Haskell backend? That's kinda generating Haskell from types : > |
| 10:07:24 | <merijn> | although I think a HTT crisis of faith has halted his work on that |
| 10:07:34 | <kuribas> | merijn: well, preferably something working, not a thesis :) |
| 10:07:48 | <merijn> | kuribas: Epigram has an implementation |
| 10:08:02 | <kuribas> | neat |
| 10:08:12 | <kuribas> | But my program is in haskell, not epigram :( |
| 10:08:13 | <merijn> | unmaintained, etc. afaik |
| 10:08:15 | <merijn> | but it exists :p |
| 10:08:20 | <[exa]> | wow |
| 10:08:28 | <kuribas> | merijn: what crisis? |
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| 10:09:13 | <merijn> | kuribas: I dunno, I just know he stopped working on Epigram2 and "HTT induced crisis of faith" is what I absorbed via cultural osmosis as the reason :p |
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| 10:27:10 | <kuribas> | I wonder if haskell at typelevel is more of an untyped logic language than a static functional language. |
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| 10:32:26 | <[exa]> | kuribas: yes, quite literally |
| 10:32:32 | <Guest385> | @undo fs <*> xs = [f x | f <- fs, x <- xs] |
| 10:32:32 | <lambdabot> | fs <*> xs = concatMap (\ f -> concatMap (\ x -> [f x]) xs) fs |
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| 11:15:52 | <__monty__> | kuribas: Hence the term type prolog that sometimes pops up. |
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| 11:23:42 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) () |
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| 11:24:22 | <jackdk> | kuribas: https://aphyr.com/posts/342-typing-the-technical-interview |
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| 11:39:54 | <kuribas> | You smile kindly. “Haskell is a dynamically-typed, interpreted language.” |
| 11:39:59 | <kuribas> | that's great |
| 11:40:19 | <kuribas> | this article actually makes sense now, in contrast to when I first read it years ago. |
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| 13:12:21 | <tomsmeding> | Heh, from two "Previously:" links deep: "Pretend you are a Haskell programmer, as your grandmother was, before her continuation passed." |
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| 14:20:23 | <exarkun> | It seems to me that I used to be able to put a `-- ^ ...` comment for haddock below a line like `PartOfSignature ->` but now `cabal build` gives me a parse error for this. |
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| 14:20:56 | <merijn> | exarkun: It needs to be before the -> I think |
| 14:21:34 | <exarkun> | So I should use `-> PartOfSignature` style instead? Though I think a blog post on the internet told me this is the wrong style. |
| 14:21:59 | <geekosaur[m]> | I think that's been acknowledged as a bug to be fixed in 9.4? |
| 14:22:23 | <geekosaur[m]> | Check ghc issues |
| 14:23:30 | <merijn> | exarkun: There's a blog post for literally all styles calling it wrong |
| 14:23:46 | <exarkun> | merijn: But surely the one I stumbled across is the right one and all the rest are wrong |
| 14:24:06 | <exarkun> | If not, how do I integrate this fact with the certain knowledge that I am the center of the universe |
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| 14:25:01 | <exarkun> | geekosaur[m]: Is it maybe a regression, then? I know this source built at some time in the past because I still have the executable sitting next to it. |
| 14:25:16 | <exarkun> | (I am looking for a bug report now) |
| 14:25:40 | <geekosaur[m]> | That's my understanding |
| 14:30:03 | <exarkun> | failed to find a bug report, but at least there were only about 10 such comments in this codebase so I just reformatted them all |
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| 15:05:52 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | somebody in OT wanted this here instead i think: when we say that the haskell gc is throughput-optimized, how much lower would the throughput be (and what would the latency impact be) if it was latency-optimized? |
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| 15:07:50 | <merijn> | Hard to say |
| 15:08:57 | <Rembane> | Seven! :D |
| 15:09:05 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i mean qualitatively here, are we talking about factors of 2 in either case or like 100x/1000x |
| 15:09:17 | <merijn> | Depends on the program too |
| 15:09:43 | <merijn> | There's certainly programs where I could see "multiple orders of magnitude" slowdown |
| 15:10:11 | <exarkun> | You can turn the knob as far as you want in either direction can't you? |
| 15:10:26 | <exarkun> | The most throughput-optimized gc would never collect anything |
| 15:10:35 | <merijn> | exarkun: Fair enough ;) |
| 15:10:39 | <exarkun> | And the most latency-optimized gc would search desparately for something to collect constantly |
| 15:11:57 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: yay, my initial hkd-records library is ready :) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hkd-records-0.0.1 |
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| 15:12:27 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and i suppose i would like to ask about something else, which is that linear resource management in rust is a smashing success i think (?), |
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| 15:12:44 | <merijn> | segfaultfizzbuzz: Define smashing success |
| 15:13:04 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and although i understand that haskell is getting linear types i don't see that this is something being embraced as a first-class citizen in haskell |
| 15:13:09 | <merijn> | segfaultfizzbuzz: It's nice for certain things where you cannot afford a GC, sure. But it *is* more of a hassle to program than with a GC |
| 15:13:58 | <Rembane> | kuribas: You have the best description of a package! :D |
| 15:14:00 | <geekosaur> | there's a lot of people fighting the borrow checker… |
| 15:14:03 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | it seems like for core library functions linear resource management is rather preferable for example |
| 15:14:06 | <kuribas> | Rembane: thx :) |
| 15:14:11 | <merijn> | segfaultfizzbuzz: Why? |
| 15:14:24 | <geekosaur> | also "smashing success" is in rust's niche, which is the same as C |
| 15:14:40 | <geekosaur> | and C has ~nothing so it takes little to be a success there |
| 15:14:40 | <merijn> | segfaultfizzbuzz: Lots of programs function perfectly fine with GC pauses |
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| 15:14:47 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: cool! Missing docs ;) |
| 15:14:56 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | "smashing success" means that rust is used to produce a range of substantial applications |
| 15:15:09 | <yin> | has Rust been losing its charm? |
| 15:15:11 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: here's an example: https://github.com/kuribas/hkd-records/blob/main/src/Data/HKD/Records.hs#L134 |
| 15:15:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | also i just realized that linear types might be a useful clue for GC...? |
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| 15:16:20 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: I've just been reading https://aphyr.com/posts/354-unifying-the-technical-interview so I have to come down to earth again a bit for this code :D |
| 15:16:40 | <merijn> | yin: Rust is great. If you cannot afford a GC |
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| 15:17:04 | <merijn> | yin: I almost can afford a GC, so see fairly little reason to use Rust over Haskell, given that borrow checker is non-zero extra hassle |
| 15:17:05 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: implementing it was a chore, but I hope using it is easy. |
| 15:17:42 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: (incidentally, I recommend that post, despite the length) |
| 15:18:05 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: I've been reading all of them, though admittedly not in much depth :) |
| 15:18:10 | <yin> | is the borrow checker a problem if we adopt a functional style? |
| 15:18:12 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | merijn: have you empirically encountered "borrow checker hassle"? |
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| 15:18:33 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: I also can't follow the prolog-in-lisp-in-prolog code :p |
| 15:18:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i wrote a bunch of rust code and ended up needing only one lifetime annotation |
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| 15:19:00 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | and that was multithreaded nondeterministically async code which involved distributing work to the CPU and GPU |
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| 15:20:50 | <kuribas> | merijn: yeah, I just cannot find a usecase where I need to give up on garbage collection. |
| 15:20:59 | <kuribas> | do people use rust for arduino? |
| 15:22:18 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: this is pretty cool! Never worked with HKD before so it's a bit of a mind bend, but looks pretty usable after being familiar with the idea :) |
| 15:22:19 | <geekosaur[m]> | If they do someone will write a Haskell DSL for it |
| 15:22:41 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | kuribas: you can use rust as a C substitute including in many embedded applications but i don't know about the arduino board in particular. |
| 15:23:25 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: my goal was to have clojure style generic (meta) operations on records. |
| 15:23:41 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: but without the need to throw away all types. |
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| 15:26:53 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: it's also way easier than dealing with Generics. |
| 15:27:12 | <tomsmeding> | oh that is quite clear -- though less general (heh) |
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| 15:27:49 | <kuribas> | True, but general enough when you have HKD records (I hope). |
| 15:27:50 | <tomsmeding> | You might be able to pitch it as a special case of Generics for metaprogramming on records in the readme / package description |
| 15:28:04 | <tomsmeding> | s/records/HKD records/ |
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| 15:29:37 | <kuribas> | I mean, meta programming is the main reason to use HKD records. |
| 15:30:25 | <kuribas> | Since if your program isn't "meta", you can just as well use combinators. |
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| 15:36:08 | <kuribas> | But I am reluctant to get rid of my catchy slogan. |
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| 15:54:03 | <jese> | in one of my modules i use CPP defines defined by a custom Setup.hs, and it all works well, but when i try to load that module in ghci, ghci complains "Found hole: <that define>". what can i do to fix this? |
| 15:55:53 | <merijn> | eh, not commit crimes of moral turpitude like "relying on CPP defines from Setup.hs"? >.> |
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| 16:00:22 | <jese> | that's done by another package, and i need it: https://github.com/haskell-hvr/hgettext/blob/master/src/Distribution/Simple/I18N/GetText.hs#L132 |
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| 16:01:55 | <merijn> | jese: What's the setup.hs in question? |
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| 16:04:11 | <jese> | merijn: https://wiki.haskell.org/Internationalization_of_Haskell_programs_using_gettext#Prepare_program_for_internationalization |
| 16:04:15 | <jese> | ^the one from here |
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| 16:04:57 | <jese> | near the bottom |
| 16:05:54 | <merijn> | The last content change of that was from 2013, so I'd check if this is actually still the right way |
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| 16:06:08 | <exarkun> | Gettext `_` is such an old idiom, much older than 2013 |
| 16:06:18 | <exarkun> | Of course, it was wrong way back then too |
| 16:06:27 | <exarkun> | but gettext folks don't seem to mind that it's wrong :) |
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| 16:07:56 | <slack1256> | Are quasiQuotes spliced implicitly by ghc when it make sense? |
| 16:08:21 | <merijn> | slack1256: ? |
| 16:09:15 | <slack1256> | I better put sometime on pastebin. Give me a sec. |
| 16:09:54 | <jese> | merijn: it works just fine so far, the only problem is that ghci can't load modules that have __MESSAGE_CATALOG_*__ CPPs |
| 16:10:37 | <geekosaur> | does it work if you explicitly use -XCPP on the command line? |
| 16:11:33 | <geekosaur> | (handling {-# LANGUAGE CPP #-} is a bit of a hack because it has to redo the compile pipeline and start over) |
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| 16:11:44 | <slack1256> | merijn: https://pastebin.com/YmwLHWU5 |
| 16:12:16 | <slack1256> | That [sql| ... |] expression shouldn't it have (Q Exp) type? |
| 16:13:02 | <merijn> | slack1256: No, the return value of 'sql' has type Q Exp |
| 16:13:20 | <geekosaur> | I'm pretty sure that is spliced in place |
| 16:13:23 | <merijn> | slack1256: The quasi quoter splices the Exp in |
| 16:13:33 | <geekosaur> | if that's not what you want then you need to work with TH directly |
| 16:13:42 | <jese> | geekosaur: no |
| 16:14:18 | <slack1256> | Mmm so [sql| <blah>|] is roughtly equivalent to $( sql <blah> ) ? |
| 16:14:53 | <geekosaur> | aside from not requiring you to write te innards as an AST, yes |
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| 16:18:05 | <slack1256> | That is why I was confused! I feel the wiki does not explain it right. |
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| 16:18:05 | use-value1 | is now known as use-value |
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| 16:18:21 | <slack1256> | Thanks geekosaur, merijn. |
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| 17:11:36 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: seems docs are not building; https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hkd-records-0.0.1/reports/ |
| 17:12:02 | <tomsmeding> | Manual upload instructions all the way at the bottom here https://hackage.haskell.org/upload |
| 17:12:32 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: it takes some time? |
| 17:12:40 | <tomsmeding> | Apparently |
| 17:12:53 | <tomsmeding> | Not sure what one should expect :) |
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| 17:13:53 | <kuribas> | a few hours is normal |
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| 18:08:35 | <yin_> | where do we put our modules in a cabal project? |
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| 18:09:05 | <yin_> | stack gives us an app and src folders |
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| 18:09:29 | <yin_> | but i can't seem to remember where modules go in a cabal project |
| 18:10:24 | <geekosaur> | where you choose (hs-source-dirs: ...) defaulting to the same directory as the cabal file |
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| 18:11:38 | <geekosaur> | if you have a library and one or more executables then it makes the most sense to put the library in one directory and each executable in its own sibling directory |
| 18:12:30 | <yin_> | oh, my cabal file has `hs-source-dirs: app` |
| 18:13:00 | <yin_> | so i guess that's the default |
| 18:13:14 | <yin_> | ? |
| 18:13:39 | <geekosaur> | cabal init will typically give you some defaults, yes |
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| 18:14:25 | <yin_> | got it |
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| 19:50:57 | <hellwolf> | is Lens using profunctor definition compatible with Lens defined in the lens/micro-lens/etc. library |
| 19:50:58 | <hellwolf> | ? |
| 19:51:40 | <hellwolf> | profunctor version looks like `Lens s t a b = Strong p => p a b -> p s t` (Maybe I messed up with some detail, don't mind) |
| 19:51:56 | <hellwolf> | and Lens in the lens/micro-lens library looks quite different |
| 19:52:01 | <hellwolf> | !hoogle bot? |
| 19:53:07 | <geekosaur> | they should be compatible, yes |
| 19:53:27 | <geekosaur> | lens uses a bunch of type wrappers/aliases |
| 19:53:30 | <hellwolf> | hmm, but how, they look so different |
| 19:53:47 | <hellwolf> | I probably should just myself, I was just wondering |
| 19:54:13 | <hellwolf> | type Lens s t a b = forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t |
| 19:54:21 | <hellwolf> | this is from lens/micro-lens library |
| 19:54:26 | slac81512 | is now known as slack1256 |
| 19:55:45 | <slack1256> | Data.Set.insert says in its documentation "Insert an element in a set. If the set already contains an element equal to the given value, it is replaced with the new value.". Why would that be useful? Why not just not insert? |
| 19:56:16 | <darkling> | Because then it wouldn't be a set? |
| 19:56:30 | <nosewings> | slack1256: because sets can't/shouldn't contain the same element twice |
| 19:56:33 | <darkling> | No two elements of a set can be equal, by definition. |
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| 19:57:28 | <slack1256> | Yeah that is true. But they are equal elements. If you leave the set as-is materially it would be the same as if you did this redundant insert. |
| 19:58:06 | <Rembane> | Maybe it's a leaky abstraction? That is, it is easier to implement this way than not inserting the element. |
| 19:58:07 | <geekosaur> | this all hinges on the definition of (=😃 for the type |
| 19:58:13 | <geekosaur> | oy |
| 19:58:15 | <geekosaur> | == |
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| 20:00:12 | <slack1256> | Mmm there are some non-stable pointer comparasions on the definition. |
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| 20:01:04 | <dolio> | Both versions could be useful, really. |
| 20:01:25 | <dolio> | One shares the set. One lets you replace the contents of the set by something better but still equal. |
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| 20:03:12 | <slack1256> | dolio: I am not seeing how the contents are being replaced "by something better" :-/ . It is just the same, right? |
| 20:03:32 | <darkling> | It all depends, as geekosaur said, on the definition of == |
| 20:04:04 | <dolio> | Maybe the new one is memory backed by a compact region. |
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| 20:04:24 | <dolio> | Or hash consed. |
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| 20:10:30 | <slack1256> | I am starting to understand |
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| 20:12:38 | <dolio> | Oh, or it's a freshly allocated bytestring with just enough memory, instead of an offset and length designating 20 characters out of 100MB or pinned memory. |
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| 20:15:13 | <slack1256> | That kind of pointer trickery is what I was thinking about. |
| 20:16:26 | <Rembane> | Is the Eq instance comparing pointers instead of content? |
| 20:16:43 | <slack1256> | The `insert` definition does. |
| 20:17:18 | <Rembane> | Cool! And not at all in line with my intuition for what it does. |
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| 22:40:46 | <dude_> | hi everyone, my first time here |
| 22:41:09 | <geekosaur> | hello |
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| 22:43:47 | <hpc> | perhaps it's your last time not here :P |
| 22:44:16 | <dude_> | let's see, i'm a beginner |
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| 23:45:21 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-07-22.