Logs on 2022-07-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:23 | <yin> | ansi-terminal-game is not up to the task |
| 00:00:49 | <Haskelytic> | yin: what are you building? |
| 00:01:25 | <yin> | interactive 2D simulation, like a litte experiment on the terminal |
| 00:01:30 | <Haskelytic> | on a side note, I was exploring some libraries and when I do `:i Text` after importing `Data.Text` I see this "Data.Text.Internal.Text {-# UNPACK #-}Data.Text.Array.Array" |
| 00:01:31 | <yin> | vty is next |
| 00:01:41 | <Haskelytic> | what is that UNPACK stuff |
| 00:01:58 | <Haskelytic> | yin: sounds cool, what are you simulating? |
| 00:02:25 | <geekosaur> | it's a compiler pragma that tells ghc to unpack the Array constructor into the Text constructor |
| 00:02:44 | <geekosaur> | it only works for strict fields with a single constructor |
| 00:04:16 | <Haskelytic> | geekosaur: I'm guessing that's a way to unbox fields? |
| 00:04:21 | <Haskelytic> | performance optimization? |
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| 00:04:45 | <Haskelytic> | I saw two more UNPACKS but they were for `Int` fields |
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| 00:08:24 | <Haskelytic> | let's say I pass a `x = "foo" :: (IsString) s => s` into a function `g :: Text -> ()`. Is it correct to say that at the call site I have instantiated a `Text` value? If I understood the `OverloadedStrings` extension, `g x` would be equivalent to `g (fromString "foo")` |
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| 00:17:35 | <geekosaur> | Haskelytic, yes |
| 00:17:50 | <geekosaur> | and you probably shouldn't use it unless you've profiled and know you need it |
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| 00:18:35 | <geekosaur> | and yes, your `x` will have been instantiated as a Text there |
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| 00:26:17 | <audisarah> | hi |
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| 00:26:47 | <audisarah> | are there any major software projects that use Haskell? |
| 00:27:00 | <geekosaur> | pandoc? |
| 00:27:01 | <Haskelytic> | GHC :) |
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| 00:27:16 | <audisarah> | pandoc? |
| 00:27:22 | <Haskelytic> | oh yeah pandoc is great |
| 00:27:27 | <audisarah> | Haskelytic: haha, good one |
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| 00:27:43 | <geekosaur> | it's probably the best known Haskell project |
| 00:28:05 | <audisarah> | so no? |
| 00:28:06 | <geekosaur> | hledger, git-annex, xmonad |
| 00:28:26 | <dsal> | audisarah: what's the nature of your question? |
| 00:28:32 | <geekosaur> | you hadn't heard of pandoc? I see it pretty much everywhere because it's the swiss army knife of document conversion |
| 00:28:43 | <audisarah> | dsal: are there any major software projects written in Haskell? |
| 00:28:54 | <dsal> | That's the words of your question, not the nature. :) |
| 00:29:08 | <audisarah> | what do you mean 'nature'? |
| 00:29:37 | <dsal> | This sounds like an XY problem. What are you hoping to find out? |
| 00:29:42 | <audisarah> | you want me to type my own question? I mean, I'd guess it would be for my own information |
| 00:29:54 | <audisarah> | or knowledge so I can decide if Haskell is worth learning |
| 00:30:17 | <dsal> | So, whether or not Haskell is worth learning is an unrelated question, which is why I said it sounds like XY. :) |
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| 00:30:58 | <dsal> | If your only goal for learning something is to work on some major project you've heard of, then the question makes sense, but I don't think anyone here learned Haskell for that reason. |
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| 00:31:02 | <audisarah> | dsal: oh, are you a help desk technician? |
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| 00:31:24 | <audisarah> | I don't think my question has anything to do with help desk terminology |
| 00:31:26 | audisarah | laughs |
| 00:31:41 | <dsal> | Not sure what help desks have to do with anything. |
| 00:32:03 | <audisarah> | "The XY problem is a communication problem encountered in help desk, technical suppor" |
| 00:32:11 | <Haskelytic> | This is a strange conversation :) |
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| 00:32:19 | <audisarah> | sorry, I'm not too familiar with help desk terminology |
| 00:32:29 | <audisarah> | I'm interested in software |
| 00:32:46 | <audisarah> | was simply asking if Haskell was worth the commitment to learn |
| 00:32:47 | <dsal> | The XY problem shows up in programming more than anything. |
| 00:32:58 | <Haskelytic> | audisarah: That's kind of up to you to figure out. |
| 00:33:07 | <audisarah> | ah, ok I think you've answered my question dsal |
| 00:33:11 | <dsal> | Ah, no, you were asking about major projects using Haskell. That's the X. What you want to *know* is whether it's worth learning. That's the Y. |
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| 00:33:31 | <dsal> | It's worth learning if you want to be a better programmer. |
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| 00:33:43 | use-value1 | is now known as use-value |
| 00:33:48 | <audisarah> | lol |
| 00:34:01 | <audisarah> | what do you mean 'better programmer'? |
| 00:34:05 | <Haskelytic> | dsal: citation needed :) |
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| 00:34:17 | <audisarah> | isn't that relative? better than what? |
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| 00:34:49 | <dsal> | Yes, better generally means relative to where you are. Having a broader understanding generally puts you in a better position than having a narrower understanding. |
| 00:35:29 | <Haskelytic> | I can think of a pragmatic reason for you to learn. You ever seen APIs that claim to be functional and eschew OOPy patterns but look like somebody was trying to build a puzzler? |
| 00:35:30 | <dsal> | It's hard to know what that means specifically for you without knowing more about your background, though. |
| 00:35:38 | <Haskelytic> | Learn Haskell and those APIs will become easier to grok :) |
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| 00:36:36 | <dsal> | You can also see patterns that folks try to create, but can't because of language limitations. e.g., elm has functors, but can't express them explicitly, so it just uses a pattern. Most other languages just have lots of different things you have to do in different situations that can't be made common. |
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| 00:38:07 | <dsal> | There are classes of bugs in codebases I've worked on in the past that we just had to accept / try to teach people to stop writing. In my current codebase, we can just make them not compile and worry about bigger issues. |
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| 00:39:34 | <audisarah> | dsal: so you want to restrict peoples freedoms to program? |
| 00:39:35 | <audisarah> | why? |
| 00:40:00 | <geekosaur> | what? |
| 00:40:06 | <geekosaur> | where did you get that from? |
| 00:41:02 | <audisarah> | when you said you want to make certain patterns non-compilable? |
| 00:41:14 | <geekosaur> | bugs should not compile |
| 00:41:33 | <dsal> | Customers tend to not like production downtime that prevents their businesses from moving money. |
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| 00:42:37 | <Haskelytic> | audisarah: If it's any consolation, even the BDFL of Python said something along the lines of "python is a nightmare at scale" |
| 00:42:39 | geekosaur | thinks this person is deliberately "mis"interpreting what is being said |
| 00:43:01 | <dsal> | "restricting freedom" is a powerful tool that's not available as broadly in most languages. |
| 00:43:09 | <dsal> | It's actually an incredibly powerful feature. |
| 00:43:42 | <Haskelytic> | So even those pythonistas are now embracing types, albeit somewhat haphazardly |
| 00:44:42 | elmyr | is now known as dy |
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| 00:51:43 | <qrpnxz> | newtype Feature = Feature (Bug) |
| 00:51:49 | <qrpnxz> | problem solved 😎 |
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| 00:52:33 | <qrpnxz> | coerce buggyFunction :: Featureful |
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| 00:55:36 | <dsal> | Sure, but I can make `coerce` not work when it wouldn't be appropriate. |
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| 00:55:59 | <dsal> | Most of the time when, when I feel like GHC is being magic and powerful, it's about what it *prevents* people from writing. |
| 00:56:42 | <qrpnxz> | nooo, did you just `type role Bug nominal` me? you win again... |
| 00:57:03 | <qrpnxz> | 😁 |
| 00:57:26 | <dsal> | `coerce` has a bunch of names in this codebase for some reason. |
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| 01:02:37 | <Haskelytic> | :t replicateM |
| 01:02:38 | <lambdabot> | Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a] |
| 01:02:51 | <Haskelytic> | the naming convention has been broken :) |
| 01:03:00 | <Haskelytic> | why isn't it replicateA |
| 01:05:00 | <dsal> | I assume it used to be constrained to Monad |
| 01:05:31 | <qrpnxz> | well that's confusing |
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| 01:07:37 | <cjay> | Is there a way to profile only a single library, that is a dependency of a benchmark target? cabal seems to want profiling-versions of other dependencies when profiling is turned on (and doesn't even try to build them for some reason, maybe because of nix..) |
| 01:07:38 | <dsal> | https://github.com/ghc/ghc/commit/741cf18a5e4ee5d0aa8afcab813441e7bcd4050c |
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| 01:08:21 | <cjay> | cabal.project options seem to never do what I want/expect. And it doesn't even complain. |
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| 01:08:47 | <Haskelytic> | dsal: oh wow nice find |
| 01:09:48 | <dsal> | Yeah, Applicative came later, so it makes sense to see things like this. Keeping the names is reasonable, I guess. |
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| 01:14:04 | <qrpnxz> | from how Data.Traversable is, i would more expect that those stay specialized and that new more general functions with different names get defined. (e.g. traverse vs mapM) Because of that experience, i wouldn't immediately have considered trying replicateM on an Applicative. Not the end of the world but just unexpected. So good to know. |
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| 01:19:03 | <cjay> | when profiling an executable, are profiling-versions of ALL the dependencies required, even if I don't wont cost centers in any of the dependecies (except for one..) |
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| 01:23:47 | <dsal> | I've never attempted profiling without wanting to know all cost centers. |
| 01:24:14 | <sm> | cjay: yes |
| 01:25:00 | <cjay> | dsal: having cost centers all over the place prevents inlinig, so you're profiling a very different program, according to this https://www.tweag.io/blog/2020-01-30-haskell-profiling/ |
| 01:25:57 | <cjay> | sm: thx, good to know. |
| 01:26:29 | <cjay> | hmm, now I need to find a way to tell nix to rebuild everything with profiling :| |
| 01:27:04 | <cjay> | AND tell it to not add cost centers. ugh. |
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| 01:38:51 | <qrpnxz> | i think that's a couple of keystrokes on emacs 😁 |
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| 02:01:59 | <qrpnxz> | just now learning the async library. The thing is awesome. withAsync ❤️ |
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| 02:08:21 | <audisarah> | Haskelytic: bro, Haskell will never, ever be the authority on types lol |
| 02:08:23 | <dsal> | Oh yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in there |
| 02:08:26 | <audisarah> | as much as you try |
| 02:08:33 | <audisarah> | C++ and C will always be the authority |
| 02:08:58 | <audisarah> | and please don't mistake type theory with Haskell:) |
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| 02:09:03 | <dsal> | It's easier to troll when you say things that aren't so obviously stupid. |
| 02:09:24 | <audisarah> | dsal: which part? that type theory =/= Haskell? |
| 02:09:56 | <audisarah> | or that I'd trust a C++ programmer of a Haskell programmer on a practical project when it comes to advice on types |
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| 02:11:22 | <audisarah> | at this point I'd consider Haskell a failed project |
| 02:11:50 | <audisarah> | it was certainly admirable to try and take type theory into mainstream but |
| 02:11:55 | <audisarah> | OCaml has done far more in that regard |
| 02:12:03 | <audisarah> | maybe in 300 years I'll be wrong |
| 02:12:13 | <audisarah> | but no, I'm not trolling? |
| 02:12:20 | <audisarah> | are you? |
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| 02:19:18 | <audisarah> | like OCaml might even be more niche than Haskell but |
| 02:19:26 | <audisarah> | at least me and my friends have fucking heard of OCaml |
| 02:19:29 | <audisarah> | and it has that respect |
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| 02:19:48 | <audisarah> | cause it was the first |
| 02:20:04 | <qrpnxz> | C authority on types? What? |
| 02:20:22 | <qrpnxz> | C types amount to a sticker pack lol |
| 02:20:27 | <audisarah> | qrpnxz: you can program *any* type in C |
| 02:20:46 | <audisarah> | not saying C has strict types lol |
| 02:20:54 | <qrpnxz> | I can't parameterize any type in C so already way behind |
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| 02:21:25 | <audisarah> | you can even program GHC in C, of course you can parametrize types in C |
| 02:21:30 | <audisarah> | simple matter of abstraction |
| 02:21:47 | <qrpnxz> | mmm, no you can't. C just doesn't have that feature. |
| 02:21:59 | <audisarah> | lol wait waht |
| 02:22:04 | <audisarah> | You can't program GHC in C? |
| 02:22:08 | <audisarah> | is that what youre saying? |
| 02:22:16 | <qrpnxz> | yeah, choose the one that doesn't make sense. |
| 02:22:18 | <qrpnxz> | very honest |
| 02:23:46 | <audisarah> | qrpnxz: GHC was written in C so what exactly does Haskell add? besides an abstraction written on top of C |
| 02:23:47 | <audisarah> | I'm confused |
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| 02:24:35 | <qrpnxz> | hasn't ghc been bootstrapped to haskell for a while now |
| 02:25:00 | <qrpnxz> | even if it wasn't i don't get your point though |
| 02:25:47 | <audisarah> | all I said was you could program any type in C |
| 02:25:50 | <audisarah> | or even GHC itself |
| 02:25:58 | <audisarah> | am I wrong? |
| 02:26:16 | <qrpnxz> | could you explain what you mean exactly by "program any type" |
| 02:27:08 | <dsal> | qrpnxz: trolls just want to waste your time. It's pretty clear this person has no interest in actual programming topics and shouldn't be taken seriously. |
| 02:27:22 | <audisarah> | I mean, any type that Haskell implements could be programmed in C via native code or LLVM back-end since GHC is programmed in C |
| 02:27:28 | <audisarah> | or bootstrapped in C in later versions |
| 02:27:40 | <audisarah> | so therefore Haskell is really just a big abstraction on top of C |
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| 02:27:41 | finn_elija | is now known as FinnElija |
| 02:27:43 | <audisarah> | when you think about it |
| 02:27:56 | <EvanR> | function types in C are pretty painful |
| 02:27:57 | <audisarah> | the rest is just human terminology |
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| 02:28:11 | <monochrom> | Why C? Why not go straight to machine code? |
| 02:28:19 | <qrpnxz> | i would calculate any c program on a piece of paper, so really c is just a big abstraction on top of my pencil |
| 02:28:21 | <monochrom> | And what is your point? |
| 02:28:38 | <monochrom> | And yeah what qrpnxz says. |
| 02:28:47 | <monochrom> | Although, I think Turing said it first :) |
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| 02:28:52 | <qrpnxz> | lol |
| 02:28:57 | <audisarah> | so then why not just use pure Lambda calculus? |
| 02:29:03 | <audisarah> | if its just a big abstraction on top of your pencil |
| 02:29:04 | <audisarah> | lol |
| 02:29:23 | <audisarah> | what does Haskell offer that C doesn't and OCaml doesn't |
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| 02:29:29 | <audisarah> | in terms of major software accomplishments? |
| 02:29:34 | <audisarah> | besides GHC itself |
| 02:29:38 | <monochrom> | Yes this whole "debate" or "discussion" or whatever you euphemise it is pointless. Can we move on now? |
| 02:29:43 | <EvanR> | space leaks mattering more than memory leaks |
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| 02:30:36 | audisarah | is a HUGE fan of type theory btw |
| 02:31:00 | audisarah | is a HUGE fan of C, lisp, lambda calculus, OCaml. |
| 02:31:12 | <qrpnxz> | Haskell is just so much nicer to write for a lot of kinds of programs. Just basic datastructures alone are a reason to avoid C. Hey, i like C too, but Haskell is very convenient and nice from a pragmatic point of view compare to C. |
| 02:31:24 | <monochrom> | Haskell offers me less chore than C, and even less chore than OCaml. |
| 02:31:53 | <monochrom> | But that will not convince you because you're in reductionist mode anyway. |
| 02:32:29 | <audisarah> | no, I think I understand and agree with you monochrom |
| 02:32:32 | <monochrom> | Yeah I don't know why I'm feeding this. |
| 02:32:33 | <qrpnxz> | EvanR: i like left Twix more than Right Twix personally |
| 02:32:38 | <audisarah> | I understand benefits of Haskell to certain users |
| 02:32:44 | <audisarah> | that aren't familiar with OCaml or dont care to learn |
| 02:32:55 | <audisarah> | and aren't going to code the next GHC |
| 02:33:15 | <audisarah> | im just wondering then, what will it accomplish in future as a high level functional language? |
| 02:33:48 | <audisarah> | what is the point, if any. will it inspire new functional languages beyond what common lisp or closure has inspired? |
| 02:33:55 | <qrpnxz> | i've looked very briefly at ocaml and it's pretty ugly (what i have seen anyway). It's also OOP iirc? (I know very very little about it sorry) It just seem like a way of working rather different from haskell. I like haskell way better afaik |
| 02:34:05 | <audisarah> | or will it enable more academic research into type theory that dwarfs OCaml |
| 02:34:12 | <audisarah> | or will it be eventually faster than C |
| 02:34:27 | <monochrom> | Actually in terms of statically typed OOP, OCaml does it justice and beauty. |
| 02:34:27 | <audisarah> | what does it contribute to our understanding of cs? |
| 02:34:41 | <qrpnxz> | monochrom: also, is ocaml eager? |
| 02:34:41 | <monochrom> | (For dynamically typed OOP, Smalltalk) |
| 02:34:42 | <dsal> | I programmed in ocaml 20 years ago or so. It's not terrible, but I don't really want to do that professionally again right now. |
| 02:34:45 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 02:34:54 | <qrpnxz> | ah yes see. I really like lazy |
| 02:35:09 | <qrpnxz> | well good to know about the oop. I may try ocaml some day |
| 02:35:20 | <audisarah> | the idea of Haskell for large software projects I think is a myth |
| 02:35:32 | <dsal> | There are neat parts, but I hit a few nasty parts in production. |
| 02:35:34 | <audisarah> | maybe in 300 years but then it will have been replaced |
| 02:35:41 | <audisarah> | so what does it inspire? |
| 02:35:43 | <audisarah> | or do |
| 02:37:59 | <qrpnxz> | if nobody used haskell, i'd use it. |
| 02:38:09 | <qrpnxz> | not being super big kind of a feature sometimes too lol |
| 02:38:59 | <dsal> | For sure, there are a lots of things that could be fixed if nobody used it. :) |
| 02:39:11 | <qrpnxz> | heh indeed |
| 02:39:36 | <monochrom> | haha that's depraved |
| 02:40:16 | <monochrom> | "Is that stop-the-world GC?" butterfly man meme |
| 02:40:30 | <dsal> | They fixed simplified subsumption and now they're going to fix fixing simplified subsumption. |
| 02:40:40 | <qrpnxz> | lol |
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| 02:41:08 | <qrpnxz> | monochrom: i just understood your comment lmao |
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| 02:42:02 | <monochrom> | Yeah it was not an obvious connection. I was inspired by something a student ran into yesterday. |
| 02:43:24 | <monochrom> | I taught fork() in a Unix-and-C course. A student experimented with a fork bomb. Then he regretted it because now he couldn't kill it. Main issue: Spawn rate exceeded kill rate. |
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| 02:44:08 | <monochrom> | Later he found a solution: SIGSTOP them first, then you have a better chance killing them. |
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| 02:45:18 | <monochrom> | Lesson learned: Fork bombs, garbage, and Haskell can all be easily fixed, if only you could just freeze everyone. |
| 02:46:20 | <dsal> | SIGSTOP on a forkbomb is basically a hiring freeze. |
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| 02:46:32 | <monochrom> | hehe |
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| 02:49:08 | <qrpnxz> | :(){ :|:& };: |
| 02:49:10 | <qrpnxz> | :) |
| 02:49:58 | <monochrom> | Hmm I should use that for my other nick. |
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| 02:50:50 | <qrpnxz> | 😁 |
| 02:52:39 | <sm> | audisarah: Haskell was used to build a very robust blockchain (cardano). I think it would have been hard to do this in another language. |
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| 02:55:32 | <sclv> | i do not think so, and rather wish they had built it in another language |
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| 02:56:47 | <dsal> | Heh. It did make way too many jobs that look like scams |
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| 02:59:56 | <qrpnxz> | sm: see, i would use that as an example except i don't respect cardano lol |
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| 04:17:08 | <yin> | why do people hate block-chain? |
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| 04:18:20 | <dsal> | Because it's incredibly wasteful scams that don't solve any problems. |
| 04:18:53 | <slack1256> | Wait until you learn about the ad business. |
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| 04:19:51 | <dsal> | Yeah, I used to work in ads. Crap, but much more honest crap. |
| 04:20:04 | <slack1256> | There is a lattice of crap. |
| 04:20:21 | <slack1256> | err semi-order |
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| 04:25:19 | <qrpnxz> | ad sounds bad until you need to sell something |
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| 04:27:06 | <monochrom> | There are some ads I really like, they're well-made. But #haskell-offtopic. |
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| 04:49:12 | <yin> | is there nothing good about blockchains? |
| 04:49:43 | <dsal> | I think git is ok |
| 04:49:44 | <yin> | or is the technology just infamously misused? |
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| 04:50:28 | <qrpnxz> | merkle trees are neat-o, proof of work is interesting, zero-knowledge proofs are great. I can say these things, but "blockchain"? |
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| 04:54:05 | <qrpnxz> | hard to say anything meaningful about "blockchain(s)". Like, in particular Bitcoin? And even then like in particular what about Bitcoin's protocal, or what property of the network, or what? |
| 04:55:35 | <monochrom> | Oh! Conclusion: Therefore we should use Haskell for the ad business instead! >:) |
| 04:56:17 | <dsal> | I tried that, but Google is really conservative about what languages they trust programmers with |
| 04:56:32 | <davean> | blockchains are about the worst distributed system implimentation. |
| 04:56:34 | <monochrom> | Ah yeah. |
| 04:56:56 | <jargon> | How do I get an angle from a unit vector? |
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| 04:57:18 | <monochrom> | Another thought: Would you like to hear that IMO all of programming is a scam in the first place anyway? >:) |
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| 04:57:43 | <dsal> | jargon: are you using dimensional or something? |
| 04:58:12 | <jargon> | This is what I have so far: https://pastebin.com/uPg8mfbz |
| 04:58:28 | <dsal> | monochrom: programmers more than programming. I'll tell you how easy a problem is until it's mine |
| 04:58:51 | <monochrom> | True that. |
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| 04:58:57 | <dsal> | jargon: I don't know that language |
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| 04:59:42 | <jargon> | BASIC is Beginner's All-Purpose Instruction Code, it is industry standard as pseudo-code. |
| 05:00:11 | <dsal> | Weird. I've never been an in industry that did that. Heh |
| 05:00:30 | <monochrom> | Ugh are you inviting help or are you looking for quarrels, what's your point. |
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| 05:01:05 | <jargon> | I would like to capture the angle based off the unit vector provided by that routine. |
| 05:01:24 | <talismanick> | Is there an update/modern counterpart to Okasaki's thesis? |
| 05:02:00 | <slack1256> | talismanick: Last time I saw, his book was the latest version. |
| 05:03:24 | <talismanick> | slack1256: I can't say I understand what you mean... I don't see additional editions on the web |
| 05:03:40 | <talismanick> | and, I'm sure the SoTA is quite different now from 1999 |
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| 05:07:45 | <EvanR> | jargon, categorical error... an angle is a thing between two vectors |
| 05:08:23 | <EvanR> | you can compute it using the dot product |
| 05:08:35 | <talismanick> | and, you need inner product space structure for that |
| 05:09:02 | <EvanR> | if you haven't already, define the dot product xD |
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| 05:09:10 | <talismanick> | (idk what you mean by "vector" in this context - just got here) |
| 05:09:47 | <EvanR> | jargon is a user, might be confusing |
| 05:09:48 | <monochrom> | It is the inner product space kind of vector, don't worry :) |
| 05:10:40 | <jargon> | EvanR I am trying to capture the normal vector as a rotation of 0 thru 1? |
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| 05:11:39 | <EvanR> | a normal vector |
| 05:11:44 | <EvanR> | that's easy. 90 |
| 05:12:05 | <jargon> | : |
| 05:12:07 | <jargon> | :| |
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| 05:12:21 | <jargon> | --> https://pastebin.com/uPg8mfbz <-- |
| 05:12:53 | <EvanR> | wait what language is this |
| 05:12:58 | <jargon> | BASIC. |
| 05:13:41 | <EvanR> | you don't have to yell! |
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| 05:13:48 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 05:14:22 | <monochrom> | I think that people who used to know that all-caps can mean yelling are near extinction. |
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| 05:17:35 | <jargon> | My computer is constantly yelling at me about nonexistent virus warnings. |
| 05:18:03 | <Haskelytic> | jargon: you should go full terry davis and exorcise your machine :) |
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| 05:18:43 | <slack1256> | Haskelytic: Glowie :-) |
| 05:19:29 | <slack1256> | God, terry was ahead this whole bunch of poser schizo-posters </s> |
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| 05:20:42 | <jargon> | Terry refused to take medication and ran from the law. |
| 05:20:59 | <slack1256> | I was reading about finger trees the other day. For amorized analysis, they always study the same operation (say 'snoc') and its performance when applied repetedly n-times. Is this standard analysis? or are there other ways to study a mix of different operations? |
| 05:22:43 | <jargon> | Notice, there doesn't seem to be any out in the public videos of Terry. |
| 05:23:08 | <monochrom> | Perhaps snoc represents the hardest scenerio for finger trees. I don't actually know, I'm guessing. |
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| 05:24:11 | <monochrom> | But generally speaking we have the banker's method and we have the potential method. (They are described in Okasaki's as well as all data structure books in their amortization chapters.) |
| 05:24:15 | <yin> | wait caps isn't yelling anymore? |
| 05:24:23 | <yin> | WDYM? |
| 05:24:32 | <monochrom> | Both methods are designed to let you freely mix different operations. |
| 05:25:10 | <slack1256> | I probably mis-read the banker's method then :-( |
| 05:25:28 | slack1256 | goes to the library to get Okasaki's |
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| 05:26:33 | <jargon> | How do I use take a given x and y cartesian coordinate and measure the rotation of the end point from the origin as a rotation of zero thru one? |
| 05:26:36 | <slack1256> | Oh, you mean as you can define the debit structure for all the operations, that is the common currency any mix of operations should spend and save. |
| 05:26:52 | <jargon> | How do I use take a given x and y cartesian coordinate and measure the rotation of the end point from the origin as a measure of zero thru one? |
| 05:26:54 | <monochrom> | Yeah! |
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| 05:29:18 | <jargon> | The flavor of BASIC I program in is called FreeBASIC "TK22" |
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| 05:31:22 | <jargon> | For "TK22"; For/Next/Gosub/Goto/If/Then/Else are all deprecated. |
| 05:32:16 | <jargon> | In "TK22"; For/Next/Step/Gosub/Goto/If/Then/Else/Return/On/Call are all deprecated. |
| 05:33:09 | <monochrom> | Unpopular Opinion: Good riddance. Every step towards "all of BASIC is deprecated" is progress. |
| 05:33:55 | <monochrom> | Although, my heart still has a soft spot for https://hackage.haskell.org/package/basic |
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| 05:37:24 | <monochrom> | Yikes, I guess case matters. Here be more yelling: it should be https://hackage.haskell.org/package/BASIC |
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| 05:48:02 | <qrpnxz> | lol it's actually BASIC |
| 05:49:36 | <jargon> | monochrom, My "TK" implementation of FreeBASIC is exponentially faster. |
| 05:50:02 | <jargon> | "TK22" * |
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| 05:52:03 | <jargon> | It is advised to declare a variable after the start of a function definition, assign its initial values before use, then from there-on interface the variables. |
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| 06:05:03 | <jargon> | Again, how do I capture the 0 thru 1 rotation of the end-point of a cartesian coordinate about the origin? |
| 06:05:46 | <jargon> | I can't do crap until I get this working. |
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| 06:23:07 | <jargon> | This is what I wanted to do: http://puzzlum.org/3D%20Floor//vault/3D%20Floor%20Space/vods/2022-06-15_15-52-09.mp4 |
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| 06:27:08 | <jargon> | This: (Sorry for the prior bugged hyperlink) http://puzzlum.org/3D%20Floor/vault/3D%20Floor%20Space/vods/2022-06-15_15-52-09.mp4 |
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| 07:20:09 | <famubu> | Hi. I was trying to see how package management is done with cabal. I got a haskell package providing an executable. Is there a way to run a command using this executable via cabal on a new package being made with cabal? |
| 07:22:20 | <maerwald[m]> | famubu: cabal run |
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| 07:25:04 | <famubu> | So a cabal.project file is needed? |
| 07:25:31 | <famubu> | I mean when I tried `cabal run <external-executable>` I got a message saying that. |
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| 07:26:23 | <famubu> | Like this: Cannot run the package pack-name, it is not in this project (either directly or indirectly). If you want to add it to the project then edit the cabal.project file. |
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| 07:50:30 | <Noinia> | I'm playing with folds from the lens package. Is there an easy way to transform a 'Fold s a' into a 'Fold s b' by appling some given function f :: a -> b to all elements that the fold will visit? |
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| 08:11:47 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: the documentation is available now :) I added a new version with better documentation and some minor changes (but it's still being processed). |
| 08:12:15 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: I found there is some overlap between my package and the barbies package: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/barbies |
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| 08:25:13 | <tomsmeding> | @tell kuribas ah, that looks more extensive, too; but the first thing you have going for your library is better names :p |
| 08:25:13 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 11:15:28 | <radhika> | Hi what is the use of hoogle? I understand searching functions.. but as a newbie I don’t know the function anyway so what do I search? |
| 11:19:07 | <int-e> | it's for searching by types |
| 11:19:48 | <int-e> | @hoogle [a] -> [a] -> [a] |
| 11:19:49 | <lambdabot> | Prelude (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] |
| 11:19:49 | <lambdabot> | Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] |
| 11:19:49 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Base (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] |
| 11:20:29 | <int-e> | So if you forget what the operator for list concatenation is, you could do that. |
| 11:20:56 | <int-e> | (It doesn't always work this well, of course, because types do not fully describe function semantics.) |
| 11:21:49 | <int-e> | Also those three results are all the same, exported from different modules. It's not perfect. |
| 11:22:34 | <radhika> | Sorry to labour on this.. but is Comcast the only function which takes two lists and returns third ? |
| 11:22:45 | <radhika> | I meant concat |
| 11:22:51 | <int-e> | Whether that's useful for you... well you'll have to figure that out for yourself. |
| 11:23:15 | <radhika> | Ok |
| 11:23:25 | <int-e> | No, it's not the only one. |
| 11:23:41 | <radhika> | That’s the only use case for hoogle right ? |
| 11:24:27 | <radhika> | Basically if I know the type signature for a function I can shortlist all functions with that type sign.. |
| 11:24:27 | <int-e> | https://hoogle.haskell.org/ will give you other results if you try that query. |
| 11:24:43 | <int-e> | `interleave` is a convincing one |
| 11:25:31 | <int-e> | Sometimes you'll see an identifier in code and not know which import it came from, Hoogle might help there too. |
| 11:25:35 | int-e | shrugs |
| 11:25:40 | <int-e> | I actually hardly use it. |
| 11:26:56 | <radhika> | Also there is a drop down set :stackage and set : Haskell platform what’s the difference..? |
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| 12:16:01 | <tomsmeding> | radhika: those select different subsets of packages to search througj |
| 12:16:15 | <tomsmeding> | For hoogle, stackage is generally a good bet |
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| 12:18:14 | <radhika> | R packages different in both ? |
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| 12:21:32 | <hpc> | they're both subsets of hackage, so any particular $package-$version is going to be the same in both, but which ones they have will be different |
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| 13:24:07 | <naso> | i am having trouble building in prof mode in cabal |
| 13:24:34 | <naso> | cabal install --enable-profiling --ghc-options="-fprof-auto -rtsopts" |
| 13:24:35 | <naso> | cabal run project-exe -- +RTS -p |
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| 13:24:49 | <naso> | error: the flag -p requires the program to be built with -prof |
| 13:24:53 | <naso> | ? |
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| 13:37:29 | <naso> | i had to also pass `--enable-profiling` to `cabal run` |
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| 13:39:22 | <tomsmeding> | naso: indeed, `cabal run` doesn't care what you did before (e.g. build or install); it just looks at the flags it gets, builds the required executables if necessary, and runs the command |
| 13:39:55 | <naso> | tomsmeding: thanks |
| 13:40:06 | <tomsmeding> | `cabal install` builds an executable in the same manner, and installs it in some global directory, usually ~/.cabal/bin |
| 13:40:32 | <tomsmeding> | The only thing that these commands share is caching of already-built things (with the same flags) |
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| 13:41:26 | <tomsmeding> | `cabal exec` is different from build, run and install, because it just executes whatever executable is available without building -- i.e. `cabal build` + `cabal exec` probably does what you expected |
| 13:41:47 | <tomsmeding> | But usually what you want is simply `cabal run` with the flags you want, and nothing else |
| 13:44:29 | <naso> | i am building in profile to display a treemap with profiteur. So I could combine the `cabal build` and `cabal run` commands into one line> |
| 13:44:31 | <naso> | ? |
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| 13:54:19 | <[itchyjunk]> | My solution works but not sure if it's the most obvious way of doing this |
| 13:54:20 | <[itchyjunk]> | https://bpa.st/Q4QQ |
| 13:55:16 | <naso> | looks good to me |
| 13:55:21 | <[itchyjunk]> | nice! |
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| 13:57:03 | <int-e> | if you want to be a bit fancy, you can do basicOp '+' = (+) |
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| 13:58:44 | <int-e> | if you want to be incomprehensible, fromJust . flip lookup [('+',(+)),('-',(-)),('*',(*)),('/',div)] ...don't do that. |
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| 14:29:55 | <moonsheep> | When will text 2 make it into stackage? |
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| 14:33:17 | <[itchyjunk]> | :D that second solution looks like job security |
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| 14:51:55 | <tomsmeding> | naso: you don't need `cabal build` at all if you're going to run it afterwards anyway |
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| 15:09:34 | <naso> | tomsmeding: got it--thanks :) |
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| 16:54:08 | <albet70> | how to get a file list ascending by time? listDirectory only seems not ordered |
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| 17:06:27 | <monochrom> | Perhaps you have to call getModificationTime for every file and do your own sorting. |
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| 17:10:25 | <int-e> | ...argh, getModificationTime follows symlinks. |
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| 17:15:23 | <albet70> | yes, but I found there's no Data.Time.Clock.sort for UTCTime |
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| 17:15:44 | <monochrom> | UTCTime is an Ord instance. |
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| 17:15:52 | <monochrom> | err, s/is/has/ |
| 17:16:13 | <albet70> | so? |
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| 17:16:37 | <albet70> | sort isn't asked by Ord |
| 17:16:42 | <monochrom> | So you can use any sorting algorithm that just requires Ord. |
| 17:16:44 | <c_wraith> | :t sort |
| 17:16:46 | <lambdabot> | Ord a => [a] -> [a] |
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| 17:16:55 | <c_wraith> | Ord looks sufficient to me |
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| 17:17:02 | <albet70> | I see |
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| 17:18:08 | <troydm> | what's default unimplemented function method, like how do I mark function unemplemented yet |
| 17:18:34 | <troydm> | I'm doing error "unimplemented" but there ought to be something more elegant |
| 17:18:46 | <c_wraith> | usually just set the body as undefined |
| 17:18:49 | <albet70> | how to turn [IO String] to [String] in do notation? |
| 17:19:43 | <int-e> | :t sequence |
| 17:19:44 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 17:19:57 | <troydm> | c_wraith: ahh, yes undefined |
| 17:19:59 | <int-e> | ...right. that, with t = [] |
| 17:20:00 | <monochrom> | If you used traverse, you wouldn't even have an intermediate [IO String]. |
| 17:20:01 | <troydm> | c_wraith: thx |
| 17:20:12 | <int-e> | :t mapM |
| 17:20:13 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b) |
| 17:20:22 | <int-e> | :t traverse |
| 17:20:23 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) |
| 17:20:52 | <int-e> | The old types were more beginner-friendly :P |
| 17:23:02 | <c_wraith> | eh. when I was a beginner, having two *different* mapM/sequence functions was more confusing |
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| 17:24:05 | <c_wraith> | "why is that a type error? oh, because it's the wrong one. Ok, import the right one... and now there's a namespace collision error." |
| 17:24:33 | <monochrom> | Did traverse exist back then? Or do you mean mapM_ and mapM? |
| 17:25:11 | <c_wraith> | mapM and sequence. traverse existed, but it didn't have a monomorphic form and wasn't in the prelude. (still isn't, I think) |
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| 17:27:05 | <monochrom> | It is now, I tried 8.10.7 |
| 17:28:04 | <c_wraith> | oh, it's traverse_ that wasn't added. but mapM_ is there! |
| 17:28:14 | <albet70> | filelist <- listDirectory "./Downloads/"; tl <- traverse getModificationTime $ ("./Downloads/" <>) <$> filelist; print $ sort tl Variable not in scope: sort :: [time-1.9.3:Data.Time.Clock.Internal.UTCTime.UTCTime] -> a0 |
| 17:28:38 | <c_wraith> | it's in Data.List |
| 17:29:33 | <albet70> | aha |
| 17:30:20 | <albet70> | I think listDirectory should have options like get file list ascending by time or size or whatever, why it's so poor? |
| 17:30:36 | <c_wraith> | because it's cross-platform |
| 17:30:38 | <albet70> | no one using it? |
| 17:31:00 | <qrpnxz> | c_wraith: traverse and sequence are in the Prelude |
| 17:31:23 | <qrpnxz> | foldMap also |
| 17:31:25 | <qrpnxz> | but not fold |
| 17:31:41 | <qrpnxz> | bit of a mixed bag. I usually end up having to import foldable |
| 17:32:13 | <c_wraith> | honestly, I've never used fold. Somehow it just never comes up. |
| 17:33:34 | <monochrom> | Wait, there is a "fold"?! |
| 17:33:38 | <qrpnxz> | yeah, and then i also read that sum and product are not foldl' (!), so it's a bit of a mess |
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| 17:34:49 | <c_wraith> | :t fold |
| 17:34:50 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m |
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| 17:35:19 | <c_wraith> | :t foldMap id |
| 17:35:20 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m |
| 17:35:46 | <c_wraith> | Somehow I just never end up in that situation |
| 17:35:54 | <c_wraith> | oh... |
| 17:35:57 | <c_wraith> | :t mconcat |
| 17:35:58 | <lambdabot> | Monoid a => [a] -> a |
| 17:36:02 | <c_wraith> | because of that |
| 17:36:03 | <monochrom> | Haha oops oh well then I guess I was wrong last time to say "there are foldr, foldl, and foldMap, but there is no handwaving fold". |
| 17:36:33 | <qrpnxz> | lol |
| 17:37:24 | <c_wraith> | well. there isn't a handwaving "fold" idea that explains all of those. |
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| 17:38:57 | <c_wraith> | But I think I was also in that conversation, and it's why I led with "that looks like foldr by the type" |
| 17:39:32 | <dolio> | sum and product have more optimized implementations for most types people use, as I recall. |
| 17:40:23 | <qrpnxz> | huh |
| 17:40:35 | <dolio> | As long as they're being used on specific types. |
| 17:40:56 | <dolio> | Or, I suppose, types that are specifically known at compile time. |
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| 18:17:23 | <albet70> | I like foldl1, why not let reduce = foldl1? |
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| 18:20:36 | <EvanR> | your gratuitous bikeshedding has been reported |
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| 18:22:50 | <darkling> | Which colour form did you use to make the report? :) |
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| 18:23:45 | <geekosaur> | I don't see it on discourse, it's not proper bikeshedding :þ |
| 18:24:51 | <[exa]> | albet70: there's too many possibilities for how to sort the directory contents, any API for that would probably be chronically incomplete (and randomly non-working on certain unspoken platforms) |
| 18:25:24 | <geekosaur> | and unreliable if a file is being written to when you check its size (ls/dir ignores this) |
| 18:26:37 | <geekosaur> | (I have seen a C API for that kind of thing, limited to posix. now that I think about it, someone was trying to come up with applicatives…) |
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| 19:42:39 | <SamBellamy> | is this example https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ceyZBbr9 you wouldn't be able to tell if it was nothing or is just correct if you gave it [0] |
| 19:42:43 | <SamBellamy> | in* |
| 19:42:46 | <SamBellamy> | ?* |
| 19:42:46 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: v @ ? . |
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| 19:44:05 | <geekosaur> | with [0] yes |
| 19:44:14 | <geekosaur> | this is why Maybe exists |
| 19:45:36 | <SamBellamy> | would you then change this "intOrZero Nothing = 0"? |
| 19:46:17 | <geekosaur> | I wouldn't use intOrSZero at all, I'd use safeHead directly so I could tell Nothing from Just 0 |
| 19:46:22 | <int-e> | don't use headOrZero? |
| 19:46:33 | <geekosaur> | unless there is a good reason to default to 0 |
| 19:47:20 | <int-e> | I mean, headOrZero may be legitimate, but you you want to distinguish [] and [headOrZero []] then no tweaking of the return value of headOrZero for the empty list will accomplish that. |
| 19:47:32 | <int-e> | you you -> if you |
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| 19:49:49 | <SamBellamy> | alright |
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| 19:55:56 | <SamBellamy> | How would this work? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4HRYJ9qr I tried "iWantAString Right "hi"" |
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| 19:56:39 | <Bulby[m]> | backslash it, like other langs? |
| 19:56:39 | <Bulby[m]> | "iWantAString Right\"hi\"" |
| 19:56:46 | <SamBellamy> | Ok |
| 19:57:10 | <SamBellamy> | btw, how come when I try to use backspace it repeats the previous thing on the terminal? |
| 19:57:29 | <Bulby[m]> | on the haskell repl? |
| 19:57:53 | <Bulby[m]> | it doesn't do that for me |
| 19:57:55 | <SamBellamy> | The terminal on VSCode |
| 19:58:08 | <Bulby[m]> | no idea, probably a binding |
| 19:58:16 | <Bulby[m]> | doesn't do that in a normal terminal for me |
| 19:58:29 | <Bulby[m]> | may be a windows thing for you 🤷 |
| 19:58:30 | <SamBellamy> | maybe cos it's iterm?? |
| 19:58:42 | <SamBellamy> | iterm2 |
| 19:59:33 | <Bulby[m]> | no idea |
| 19:59:40 | <SamBellamy> | ok no worries |
| 20:03:03 | × | matthewmosior quits (~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 20:03:05 | <geekosaur> | sounds like it might be https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/20722 ? |
| 20:05:35 | <geekosaur> | which iirc is awaiting a fixed haskeline |
| 20:06:40 | × | alternateved quits (~user@staticline-31-183-144-54.toya.net.pl) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:07:57 | <monochrom> | I think I have a student who suffers that, too. |
| 20:08:26 | <monochrom> | Currently he thinks that it's his own strange setup. (He does have a slightly strange setup.) |
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| 20:20:21 | <SamBellamy> | I keep getting an error https://paste.tomsmeding.com/H8L3GcK6 e.g. func False 7 |
| 20:20:55 | <SamBellamy> | should it return 2? |
| 20:21:44 | <Rembane> | SamBellamy: Have you tried calling it with func False (Just 7) ? |
| 20:21:51 | <monochrom> | func False (Just 7) |
| 20:21:58 | <monochrom> | Respect the types. |
| 20:22:18 | <SamBellamy> | f |
| 20:22:24 | <monochrom> | Be mechanical, not intuitive. |
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| 20:23:44 | <SamBellamy> | Shouldn't it return 2 and not "Just 7" |
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| 20:24:10 | <monochrom> | Who said it returns Just 7? We are saying the 2nd param is (Just 7) |
| 20:24:29 | <geekosaur> | `Just 7` and `7` are different, incompatible types |
| 20:24:44 | <geekosaur> | you cannot simply pass 7 where it expects a `Maybe Int` |
| 20:25:42 | <Rembane> | SamBellamy: Also, try to read the type error again. If you need help you can put it in a paste bin and show it to us and we can help you. |
| 20:26:25 | <monochrom> | I'm becoming pessimistic about that. |
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| 20:26:40 | <monochrom> | These days the next generation use vscode and hls etc. |
| 20:27:02 | <monochrom> | The type error message will not appear in the REPL. |
| 20:27:11 | <monochrom> | (not as text) |
| 20:27:17 | <geekosaur> | they still show the type error. admittedly getting that into a pastebin might be a little more difficult |
| 20:27:34 | <SamBellamy> | func False (Just 7) ==> Just 7 but then func False (Just 5) ==> 2 |
| 20:27:45 | <geekosaur> | er |
| 20:27:59 | <geekosaur> | it can't be returning 2 for the one and Just 7 for the other |
| 20:28:05 | <monochrom> | It will appear when you hover your mouse at the relevant code, and it is in one of those annoying hover popups. |
| 20:28:09 | × | machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d172-219-86-154.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 20:28:24 | <monochrom> | At best you can hope for the student to send you a PNG screenshot. |
| 20:28:33 | <darkling> | Doesn't everyone paste screenshots these days? :( |
| 20:28:47 | <monochrom> | At worst the screenshot is cropped wrong so it is missing the most important part. |
| 20:28:50 | <SamBellamy> | I swear it returned Just 7 I can send a pic |
| 20:28:52 | <Rembane> | The horriblest and also most exciting is a photo taken of the screen. |
| 20:29:02 | <SamBellamy> | lmao |
| 20:29:19 | <monochrom> | (It is always cropping away the most important part.) |
| 20:29:29 | <Rembane> | SamBellamy: What happens if you load the code into ghci and tries to run it? |
| 20:29:31 | <darkling> | I've seen a number of those... usually kernel oopses. |
| 20:30:08 | <Rembane> | darkling: The best of those are the ones that only have the error message: "Kernel panic. Core dumped." |
| 20:30:24 | <monochrom> | One day I should be angry enough to actually vocally oppose any form of IDEs on that ground. |
| 20:30:29 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2a43aOdb |
| 20:30:52 | <monochrom> | or alternatively s/angry/drunk/ |
| 20:31:10 | <Rembane> | monochrom: Why not both? |
| 20:31:18 | <monochrom> | heh yeah |
| 20:31:20 | <geekosaur> | (I have not tried to do this in vscode, although I have that set up.) |
| 20:31:38 | <Rembane> | geekosaur: What do :{ and :} do? |
| 20:31:39 | <monochrom> | "class Angry a => Drunk a" so yeah |
| 20:31:49 | <monochrom> | ghci multi-line mode! |
| 20:31:53 | <geekosaur> | multiline input |
| 20:31:53 | <darkling> | I still don't use an IDE. Everyone at work thinks I'm weird. |
| 20:32:00 | × | Digit quits (~user@user/digit) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 20:32:04 | <Rembane> | monochrom, geekosaur: Sweet! Thank you! |
| 20:32:05 | <darkling> | (They're probably right) |
| 20:32:08 | <geekosaur> | so everything is taken as one definition instead of each line overwriting the previous |
| 20:32:14 | <Rembane> | darkling: What do you use instead? |
| 20:32:22 | <darkling> | emacs and a terminal. |
| 20:32:27 | <monochrom> | DId you also know: xpath comments are like (: this is a comment, so happy :) |
| 20:32:33 | <geekosaur> | emacs is the original IDE |
| 20:32:52 | <geekosaur> | I mostly brought up vscode because I didn't feel like fighting emacs to set up HLS |
| 20:32:52 | <darkling> | I only really use emacs for syntax highlighting and indentation. |
| 20:32:53 | <Rembane> | darkling: Good stuff! |
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| 20:33:06 | <geekosaur> | hm |
| 20:33:11 | <SamBellamy> | I did load it |
| 20:33:24 | <SamBellamy> | is there a png paste bin? |
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| 20:33:34 | <geekosaur> | imgur, usually |
| 20:34:07 | <monochrom> | emacs haskell-mode offers both error-message-in-hover and error-message-in-repl so I don't mind. |
| 20:34:32 | <geekosaur> | imgur.com more specifically |
| 20:34:49 | <monochrom> | To be fair, hover is nice when you don't need to copy-paste the information. |
| 20:35:22 | <monochrom> | Ugh I don't want to see a pic thanks but no thanks. |
| 20:35:22 | <geekosaur> | interestingly, the hovers I usually get stick around if I mouse into them so I can click on active parts and even copy some things |
| 20:35:36 | <geekosaur> | although that's generally in code |
| 20:35:54 | <monochrom> | Ah that's nice, yeah as long as it's copyable I won't whine. |
| 20:37:12 | <hpc> | imgur's gotten awful |
| 20:37:33 | <hpc> | i have javascript and cookie whitelists in my firefox, and somehow nothing i do makes imgur load for me |
| 20:37:36 | <monochrom> | Oh, imgur's gotten more awful? (I haven't checked or care heh) |
| 20:37:51 | <hpc> | maybe dropbox? i have no idea what they've been up to though |
| 20:37:52 | <Rembane> | I wonder if a png can be put in a Github Gist. |
| 20:38:08 | × | matthewmosior quits (~matthewmo@173.170.253.91) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 20:38:58 | <geekosaur> | github ime won't render graphics |
| 20:38:59 | <hpc> | looks like gists are text only |
| 20:39:22 | <monochrom> | Time to recall the art of ascii art :) |
| 20:39:28 | <hpc> | if you're fine with it being a bit tedious, you can create a "gist" repo |
| 20:39:32 | <geekosaur> | aalib still exists 🙂 |
| 20:39:33 | <SamBellamy> | https://unsee.cc/album#nD8laI7qAwB1ThIH |
| 20:39:38 | <hpc> | and then delete it later |
| 20:39:46 | <Rembane> | Ach! I was hoping for a sweet hack. |
| 20:39:51 | <SamBellamy> | sorry |
| 20:39:55 | <SamBellamy> | I hope that works |
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| 20:40:11 | <hpc> | maybe you can base64 the image and make the gist an html file :D |
| 20:40:16 | <Rembane> | :D |
| 20:40:44 | <SamBellamy> | hpc: is there a tool for that? :D |
| 20:40:46 | <monochrom> | Oh oh I know! Made your picture in xpm format. Which is C code. Now it's "text"... >:) |
| 20:41:10 | <Rembane> | SamBellamy: The error message says that the function needs a (Maybe Int) and when you give it an Int the typechecker gets a bit confused and says that it can't find the correct type class. |
| 20:41:43 | <Rembane> | SamBellamy: What it boils down to is that you need to wrap the integer in a (Just ...) |
| 20:41:43 | <geekosaur> | I think we got past that? the question is now the part in the middle, but I wonder how deranged the definition was at that point |
| 20:41:52 | <SamBellamy> | I think the unexpected behaviour was func False (Just 7) ==> Just 7 |
| 20:42:03 | <monochrom> | SamBellamy: What's your question again? Everything in the screenshot makes sense wrt the code. |
| 20:42:07 | <Rembane> | Oh. I'm joining the typechecker in being confused. |
| 20:42:22 | <monochrom> | False? True? |
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| 20:42:40 | <SamBellamy> | monochrom: I think this part func False (Just 7) ==> Just 7? |
| 20:42:48 | <SamBellamy> | expecting 2 |
| 20:43:03 | <monochrom> | OK I see that one now. |
| 20:43:17 | <monochrom> | An old version of your code before you saved? |
| 20:43:39 | <SamBellamy> | I copy and pasted it, I didn't change the code, it's from Haskell mooc |
| 20:44:01 | <monochrom> | Can you try again? |
| 20:44:07 | <SamBellamy> | tbs I did change it from "f" to "func" but that wouldn't make a difference I don't think |
| 20:44:11 | <monochrom> | I mean, s/Can/Could/ |
| 20:44:49 | <SamBellamy> | now it works fine i.e. func False (Just 7) ==> 2 |
| 20:44:57 | <monochrom> | Yeah you didn't save. |
| 20:45:01 | <SamBellamy> | but I just wanted to show the error |
| 20:45:19 | <monochrom> | It affects my students all the time too. Yes they're using vscode too. |
| 20:45:39 | <SamBellamy> | What editor would be best? |
| 20:45:58 | <monochrom> | I know in theoy vscode autosaves. In practice there is like 1% or 0.1% chance there is some race condition or something? and it misses a beat. |
| 20:46:14 | <monochrom> | Oh vscode is fine. Just explicitly tell it to save. |
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| 20:46:54 | <SamBellamy> | what one do you use? |
| 20:46:59 | <SamBellamy> | thinking of switching |
| 20:47:02 | <monochrom> | emacs |
| 20:47:03 | <SamBellamy> | maybe Notepad |
| 20:47:19 | <Rembane> | Neovim |
| 20:47:20 | <monochrom> | But emacs takes forever to learn. I don't recommend bothering. |
| 20:47:22 | <geekosaur> | I don't think it autosaves by default, at least it hasn't here and I am running it pretty much as installed |
| 20:47:24 | <SamBellamy> | not Notepad++, just Notepad |
| 20:47:32 | <SamBellamy> | :O |
| 20:47:38 | <monochrom> | Actually I recommend Notepad++ on Windows. |
| 20:47:41 | <geekosaur> | notepad++ would be much better for programming |
| 20:47:43 | <SamBellamy> | I need to learn vim |
| 20:47:58 | <monochrom> | If you really like to learn vim, that's cool too. |
| 20:48:02 | <SamBellamy> | jk jk, I did use Notepad++ when I was using windows |
| 20:48:04 | <darkling> | I used to know someone who wrote his Java in WordPad... |
| 20:48:15 | <Rembane> | darkling: In .rtf files? |
| 20:48:20 | <SamBellamy> | darkling: next level |
| 20:48:39 | <SamBellamy> | darkling: that person is operating on a higher plane |
| 20:48:43 | <SamBellamy> | another dimension |
| 20:48:57 | <darkling> | It's odd. He didn't *look* insane. :) |
| 20:49:08 | <monochrom> | No no no. Handwriting an xpm file is the next dimension. >:) |
| 20:49:23 | <SamBellamy> | monochrom: in an exam, imagine |
| 20:49:34 | <monochrom> | But I guess you can go "why not both" and handwrite an xpm file in wordpad... |
| 20:49:52 | <Rembane> | I suppose memory can be written in Paint. |
| 20:50:26 | <monochrom> | Oh oh oh I have one more level! Handwrite an xpm file in Paint and run OCR... |
| 20:50:40 | <monochrom> | s/write/draw/ |
| 20:50:57 | <monochrom> | Thanks for the Paint tip! |
| 20:51:14 | <Rembane> | ^^ |
| 20:51:18 | <Rembane> | This reminds me of: https://xkcd.com/378/ |
| 20:51:46 | <monochrom> | "Hi which editor/IDE do you use to code?" "I hand-draw Haskell in Paint and run OCR" |
| 20:51:48 | <SamBellamy> | what's the difference between vim and emacs? |
| 20:51:55 | <SamBellamy> | LMAO |
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| 20:53:19 | <Rembane> | SamBellamy: vim is using different modes to edit and type more text etc, while emacs relies on the CTRL key. They are both reasonable appraoches, try both editors and see which one you like the most. |
| 20:53:20 | <geekosaur> | these days, just that emacs defaults to input mode whereas vim defaults to command mode |
| 20:53:28 | <monochrom> | "This is known as untyped Haskell" |
| 20:53:37 | <geekosaur> | or that, more completely |
| 20:54:25 | <darkling> | monochrom: ROFL |
| 20:54:31 | <Rembane> | monochrom: Typing the technical interview? |
| 20:55:25 | <monochrom> | And the last one, I'll stop: I hand-draw Haskell in Paint and send the pic to my child, my child types it up. This is known as Dependently Typed Haskell. |
| 20:55:47 | <SamBellamy> | whiteboard interview, writes up python, "ok great, now lets code that up", *pulls out phone to run OCR* |
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| 20:56:54 | <Rembane> | :D |
| 20:57:27 | <Rembane> | SamBellamy: I want to be able to code like that. I found a blog post a long time ago by someone who used trees drawn on paper to code in J, but I can't find it again. |
| 20:59:52 | ← | SamBellamy parts (~SamBellam@cpc142034-slou6-2-0-cust488.17-4.cable.virginm.net) () |
| 20:59:58 | <hpc> | when i write haskell i only use characters that can be written in a single stroke |
| 21:00:01 | <hpc> | that's called linear typing |
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| 21:00:27 | <SamBellamy> | Rembane: would be a cool final year project |
| 21:00:38 | <Rembane> | SamBellamy: ^^ |
| 21:00:38 | <SamBellamy> | also, I'm done with Safari, keeps lagging |
| 21:06:09 | <monochrom> | haha hpc nice |
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| 22:56:16 | <qrpnxz> | prisms are pretty nice for parsing! |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-07-23.