Logs on 2022-07-27 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:14:53	<tompaw>	Hi.
00:15:04	<Axman6>	Hello!
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00:15:40	<talismanick>	Is there a list of (maintained) Haskell-family languages?
00:16:25	<dsal>	The point of type families is that they're open and anyone can add to them without having to update a central registry.
00:16:37	<talismanick>	languages intended to be used, not research one-offs - think Elm, PureScript, etc
00:16:58	<dsal>	Used is a weird metric. Idris? Agda?
00:16:59	<Axman6>	would yoyu consider Agda and Idris to fall into that category?
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00:17:07	<talismanick>	Axman6: sure
00:17:27	<talismanick>	Forgot to mention those. Just, anything Haskell-like which you can write "real programs" in.
00:17:34	<Axman6>	I'm not sure what you're excluding with that statement then :P
00:17:37	<talismanick>	I'll draw the line at Coq
00:17:46	<talismanick>	Axman6: "You know what I mean"
00:17:52	<dsal>	Coq is used to write real haskell code that's used to write real haskell programs.
00:17:53	<Axman6>	Coq is probably the most useful of the three
00:17:55	<talismanick>	practical languages
00:18:10	<talismanick>	Yeah, but you've left the realm of Haskell-like languages by then, IMO
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00:18:51	<talismanick>	I can count any number of Rust clones, it seems, but if I try to tally up Haskell-likes, it seems I'm perpetually one short
00:19:03	<talismanick>	(e.g. I haven't mentioned Unison yet)
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00:19:37	<Axman6>	I think the answer to youre question is probably no (though if Wikipedia's inspired by tags on language pages can be aggregated then you might be able to get a pretty decent list)
00:20:15	<dsal>	What do you consider "haskell-like"? I guess it's fair to say elm is Haskell-like, but there are a lot of fairly core Haskell features it lacks in frustrating ways, but you can find some of those features in languages you'd probably not considered Haskell like at all.
00:21:22	<talismanick>	dsal: Oh, 100%, but I tag it as "Haskell-like" because it obviously falls under (typed) functional languages and is closer to Haskell than it is to the broader ML family
00:22:13	<talismanick>	Axman6: I found Wikipedia to not be a good match for this... I came across some interesting research languages like Hume, but it's not the best resource to find "living" software
00:24:31	<talismanick>	In a similar vein, I've used hopl.info (sadly dead, it appears) for historical language research, but don't know how much it applies to modern languages
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00:25:18	<talismanick>	oh, Ur/Web should still be at large
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00:28:07	<geekosaur>	also, how about the other direction? Miranda's still out there
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00:28:23	<geekosaur>	I think Gofer's dead though
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00:34:55	<matthewmosior>	What about Agda and Idris? These are more in the dependent type realm, Agda stylistically and syntactically seems very similar to Haskell.
00:35:45	<Axman6>	we started of with that point
00:35:54	<matthewmosior>	Sorry just saw that lol
00:38:15	<matthewmosior>	Clean comes to mind, but haven't really tried it out.
00:38:42	<Axman6>	talismanick: if you do come up with a good list, feel free to add it to the HAskell wiki, so the next person can also come across an outdated and incomplete list to speed up their process :P
00:39:58	<Axman6>	dsal: was there some background to your comment about type families?
00:40:54	<dsal>	Axman6: Not really. Just asking about a central registry of things in the haskell family (presumably related to type systems) which made me think of type families and how they let you add stuff without telling anyone.
00:41:23	<Axman6>	heh, right, i felt unconnected but I get it now
00:41:27	<Axman6>	it*
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02:13:14	<pavonia>	Axman6: If you recall our discussion about Fermat's factorization, you said exactSquareRoot is more efficent because it uses integerSquareRootRem to avoid checking (sqrt n)^2 == n. Looks like it's internally doing exactly the same test, i.e. n - (sqrt n)^2 == 0
02:13:41	<pavonia>	I'm wondering if we can calculate the root and get the information for free, if it is an exact root or not
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02:19:17	<Axman6>	I mostly meant that it first does the efficient test so see if it could possible be a square before going through the calculation of the square root, but it also doesn't go as far as what isSquare does to check that possibility and waste doing some work twice
02:20:51	<Axman6>	like, isSquare does all the work of finding the root and then throws it away, so if you use exactSquareRoot you get the isSquare test and thecomputation of the square at the same time
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02:21:16	<Axman6>	Did you take a look at that paper I linked?
02:21:46	<pavonia>	Yeah, but I haven't had the time to read though it yet
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02:22:37	<Axman6>	the idea of producing the square root from the low digits to the high seems like it would be usefun in Haskell if integers were represented with lazy lists of digits
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02:25:01	<Axman6>	pavonia: also, I think the answer to your question of where those numbers come from is answered in the comment: "After that, the remainders modulo 9, 25, 7, 11 and 13 are tested"
02:27:03	<pavonia>	Those numbers look a bit random at first glance, but they are all of the form p^k where p is a prime
02:27:17	<pavonia>	16 too
02:28:57	<pavonia>	Btw, I discovered that it is a major speedup for Fermat if you don't calculate the facors of n only, but of n and a product of the first k primes that equals approximately n, then return the gcd of n and the found factor
02:29:41	<pavonia>	This way there's a much higher chance to find an arrangement of factors where both are close together early
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02:29:58	<Axman6>	I'd need to see the code
02:30:15	<Axman6>	sounds like something that would be useful in arithmoi or something though
02:30:49	<Axman6>	I was using the fermat factorisation to find the private key for poorly generated RSA keys
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02:32:17	<pavonia>	https://bpa.st/CKLQ
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02:46:22	<pavonia>	I guess for really big numbers it's more efficent to just add a few smaller extra factors instead of the full product, otherwise the numbers become too big
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04:01:54	<stanrifkin_>	is it normal to have 2.5 gb install under ~/.ghcup and 1.5 gb under ~/.cabal?
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04:07:45	<dolio>	No, that's probably smaller than normal.
04:08:31	<stanrifkin_>	hm...
04:08:38	<dolio>	Unless you do a lot of cleaning.
04:08:42	<stanrifkin_>	it was a fresh install.
04:08:57	<stanrifkin_>	then i installed hoogle with cabal
04:09:10	<stanrifkin_>	i thought it's somewhat big
04:09:10	<dolio>	Then it's probably normal.
04:09:13	<stanrifkin_>	ok
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07:00:52	<Axman6>	pavonia: you still understanding the code, but you might find MultiwayIf useful, it's basically what you're doing with that case expression on ()
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09:35:10	<janvogt>	Hello everybody, I am no IRC expert, so I hope to be in the right spot for this question. I have a Cabal (lib + exe) & Haskell project that I build using IOHKs haskell.nix. Unfortunately, the dependency closure is really large because it contains GHC itself. My current understanding as to why is that the projects‘s library somehow links dynamically to libraries shipped with GHC. I failed to bu
09:35:10	<janvogt>	ild a small repro that exhibits this problem. I would be happy for any hints when GHC decides to link libraries dynamically vs. statically. Alternatively, if someone could minimize the nix closure size on a freelance basis, I‘d gladly pay for it.
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09:38:27	<[exa]>	janvogt: can you pastebin some relevant parts of your configs? many people here use nix so I guess someone could give a hint
09:39:18	<[exa]>	btw you enabled this right? https://input-output-hk.github.io/haskell.nix/reference/modules.html#enablestatic
09:40:28	<[exa]>	(looking at the defaults you may better set enableShared=false :] )
09:44:35	<janvogt>	exa: I could paste all nix and cabal files would that help?
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09:46:15	<janvogt>	I‘ve not tried enableShared=false but only enableStatic=true. I will try it, and give feedback.
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09:51:33	<[exa]>	janvogt: btw which precise libraries are linked dynamically? (use `ldd`)
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10:02:17	<janvogt>	[exa]: ok, interesting. using enableShared=false now the exe instead of the library depends on GHC.
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10:05:25	<[exa]>	janvogt: good, disable more shared stuff :D
10:05:28	<janvogt>	I have to check again but rts and text where among the libraries being depended on. In the moment I am on macOS (so ldd wont work) but the problem seems not to be plattform related: With a colleague we extensively researched it on both darwin and linux.
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10:06:01	<janvogt>	[exa]: 😅
10:06:09	<[exa]>	janvogt: might be useful to have a look at compile logs to see exact ghc commands used to build the libraries and binaries
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10:06:55	<[exa]>	if there isn't -static, add more. :]
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10:09:44	<janvogt>	is there a way to get to the exact ghc commands in a cabal build using nix? I‘m sorry if this is a stupid question, but I am researching this problem on and off for over 4 weeks. I even tried doing complete static builds, but this opened another completely different can of worms.
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10:12:11	<albet70>	how to check if all elements are equal in a list?
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10:15:15	<[exa]>	albet70: as in "the list is like [1,1,1,1,1,1]" ?
10:15:23	<albet70>	yes
10:15:41	<albet70>	I think it's a special fold
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10:16:35	<[exa]>	the empty list should return True or False? (I vote for True)
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10:16:49	<albet70>	allEqual :: Ord a => [a] -> Bool
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10:17:20	<[exa]>	hm do you really need Ord there?
10:17:46	<[exa]>	anyway one nice solution can be done with `tail`, `zipWith`, (==) and `all`
10:17:55	<albet70>	that a need to be compared, no need for Ord?
10:18:02	<[exa]>	Eq is enough
10:18:12	<albet70>	roght
10:18:14	<[exa]>	Ord is for ordering, as in <, <=, >, >=
10:18:27	<[exa]>	Eq gives == and /=, which should be sufficient
10:18:32	<[exa]>	(in this case)
10:18:43	<albet70>	did Ord contain Eq?
10:19:38	<janvogt>	albet70: yes class Eq a => Ord a
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10:20:26	<janvogt>	see ghci> :info Ord
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10:31:46	<fendor[m]>	there is no type-level equivalent of `($)` in base, right?
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10:42:22	<[exa]>	fendor[m]: no
10:43:05	<fendor[m]>	thanks!
10:43:21	<[exa]>	(as far as "preventing parentheses" goes. You can ofcourse implement a type family that would do the same (Identity!) but I don't think you'd like the result)
10:44:44	<albet70>	> all (\a -> a == True) $ fmap (\(x,y) -> x == y) $ zip <*> tail $ [1..6]
10:44:46	<lambdabot>	False
10:44:56	<[exa]>	also actually the last time I checked is like 2 years ago, someone could have invented some kind of shortcut already, but I don't recall any
10:45:15	<albet70>	> all (\a -> a == True) $ fmap (\(x,y) -> x == y) $ zip <*> tail $ [1,1,1]
10:45:17	<lambdabot>	True
10:46:46	<[exa]>	albet70: ok cool, let's simplify a bit
10:47:13	<[exa]>	first, (\x->x==True) doesn't really "do anything" on bools, so we could replace it, right?
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10:48:08	<[exa]>	second, map (uncurry somehting) $ zip .... is usually equivalent to just `zipWith something`
10:48:14	<[exa]>	btw nice trick with the <*>
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10:56:44	<[Leary]>	Honestly, rather than messing around with zip/zipWith/<*>/tail, you can just pattern match once and it becomes really simple.
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10:57:26	<albet70>	your version?
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11:08:39	<albet70>	> all id $ zipWith (==) <*> tail $ [1..6]
11:08:41	<lambdabot>	False
11:08:59	<albet70>	> all id $ zipWith (==) <*> tail $ [1,1,1]
11:09:01	<lambdabot>	True
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11:12:07	<geekosaur>	`all id` is `and`
11:16:36	<albet70>	allEqual xs = and $ zipWith (==) <*> tail $ xs
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11:17:18	<albet70>	allEqual = and $ zipWith (==) <*> tail
11:17:31	<albet70>	any suggestions?
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11:28:07	<yushyin>	i liked the pattern match suggestion
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11:31:21	<pagnol>	is there a word for function like min :: Num a => a -> a -> a and max :: Num a => a -> a -> a?
11:31:25	<pagnol>	*functions
11:31:39	<[exa]>	extrema?
11:31:44	<pagnol>	hmm.. intersting one
11:32:12	<[exa]>	maybe bounds but that may have a bias in certain areas
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11:34:28	<geekosaur>	afaik those are the words. because you have e.g. local minima/maxima
11:35:40	<geekosaur>	ranges, perhaps
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11:59:24	<kuribas>	albet70: all id == and
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12:00:28	<kuribas>	oh geekosaur already told you
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12:03:43	<hpc>	welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered with delayed reverberation?
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12:47:19	<kuribas>	albet70: IMO you should not use tail and the (->) Applicative.
12:47:52	<kuribas>	not ever in fact
12:48:19	<kuribas>	because tail is partial, and the (->) monad is obfuscation.
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12:51:40	<int-e>	> fmap succ succ 0 -- is the functor okay? ;-)
12:51:42	<lambdabot>	2
12:52:46	<int-e>	> (tail . inits) [1,2,3]
12:52:47	<lambdabot>	[[1],[1,2],[1,2,3]]
12:52:48	<[Leary]>	Well, `zip <*> tail` is total, and as an established idiom it's also comprehensible. Its use would fine if it were actually justified---the problem is that it isn't.
12:52:56	<[Leary]>	would be*
12:53:11	<maerwald>	established idiom?
12:53:21	<kuribas>	[Leary]: first time I see it.
12:53:30	<maerwald>	me too... in 10 years of Haskell
12:53:31	<int-e>	(I know that some people advocate Nonempty, but without subtypes (which are there own can of worms) that just feels cumbersome.)
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12:53:59	<[Leary]>	Not idiom in the sense of idiomatic, but in the sense that it's used enough to be understood in combination, if not by parts. Probably because it's commonly used for fibs.
12:54:00	<int-e>	ugh, typos. NonEmpty, their.
12:54:03	<kuribas>	> (zip <*> tail) []
12:54:04	<lambdabot>	[]
12:54:28	<kuribas>	> zip [] undefined
12:54:29	<jackdk>	never seen it before, but I can guess from the type
12:54:30	<lambdabot>	[]
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12:54:40	<jackdk>	(zip <*> tail) [1..5]
12:54:46	<jackdk>	> (zip <*> tail) [1..5]
12:54:48	<lambdabot>	[(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5)]
12:55:41	<kuribas>	int-e: but you can just avoid both with pattern matching.
12:56:29	<yin>	@type zip <*> tail
12:56:30	<lambdabot>	[a] -> [(a, a)]
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12:57:43	<geekosaur>	the form you usually see, for historical reasons, is zip `ap` tail
12:57:57	<geekosaur>	but ap is just the old monadic version of <*>
12:58:14	<geekosaur>	@quote Aztec
12:58:14	<lambdabot>	alpounet says: map succ/pred is a scandinavian name generator or what? ... well, scandinavian and aztec
12:58:17	<geekosaur>	@quote Aztec
12:58:17	<lambdabot>	quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail - the Aztec god of consecutive numbers
12:59:09	<yin>	@type (zip <*>)
12:59:10	<lambdabot>	([a] -> [b]) -> [a] -> [(a, b)]
12:59:14	<yin>	oooh
13:00:09	<[Leary]>	% fix $ (0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail)
13:00:10	<yahb2>	[0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,17711,28657,46368,75025,121393,196418,317811,514229,832040,1346269,2178309,3524578,5702887,9227465,14930352,24157817,3908...
13:00:10	<int-e>	In this context, `ap` is the S combinator.
13:00:50	<int-e>	> fix $ (0:) . scanl (+) 1
13:00:52	<lambdabot>	[0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
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13:54:38	<hasbae>	the parser chapter from the Richard Bird book "Thinking Functionally With Haskell" states if we have `data Parser a = Parser (String -> [(a, String)])`, Parser a is not isomorphic to the right hand side, because of 'Parser undefined'
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13:55:13	<hasbae>	wouldn't the right hand said also have the possibility of a being undefined, making it isomorphic?
13:55:38	<hasbae>	in other words, why do you need to use newtype to make it isomorphic
13:55:51	<geekosaur>	only in that case. but (String -> [(a, String)]) can also be undefined
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13:56:13	<geekosaur>	just like `undefined` and `Just undefined` are not isomorphic
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13:56:49	<hasbae>	Parser undefined and undefined are not isomorphic. That's the reason?
13:56:51	<geekosaur>	with the newtype, there is no way to distinguish `Parser undefined` from `undefined`
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13:57:18	<hasbae>	because newtype strips out the constructor
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13:58:11	<geekosaur>	more correctly, the constructor is a figment of the typechecker's imagination
13:58:19	<geekosaur>	it's not really there
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13:58:44	<hasbae>	very cool, thanks
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14:02:05	<hasbae>	why are undefined and Just undefined not isomorphic?
14:02:42	<hasbae>	something about cardinality?
14:03:39	<[exa]>	hasbae: you can patternmatch the `Just` from `Just undefined`, getting a (partial) bit
14:04:03	<geekosaur>	> case Just undefined of { Just x -> "ok"; _ -> "nope" }
14:04:04	<lambdabot>	"ok"
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14:04:22	<geekosaur>	as long as you don't reach inside the Just, you're fine
14:04:36	<hasbae>	because of lazy evaluation?
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14:04:58	<geekosaur>	yes, more specifically bvecause patterns only evaluate as far as they need to
14:05:10	<hasbae>	TIL!
14:05:13	<geekosaur>	I didn't do anything with the `x` there so it didn't matter that it was bottom
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14:10:16	<dudem>	hi everyone, it's my second time here. First time round I fugured out that VS code was the probably the best IDE for a beginner (and better haskell support than IntelliJ)
14:10:39	<geekosaur>	hello
14:10:47	<dudem>	my question today is if anyone can recommend a Haskell Cookbook ?
14:11:11	<dudem>	something similar to https://wiki.haskell.org/Cookbook , but more extensive
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14:11:45	<geekosaur>	not really. look at code.
14:12:16	<geekosaur>	(with some care; lens is a bit impenetrable for beginners…)
14:14:19	<yushyin>	not a cookbook but i liked "What I Wish I Knew When Learning Haskell", however this no longer gets any updates
14:15:00	<yushyin>	https://github.com/sdiehl/wiwinwlh
14:15:20	<geekosaur>	but you can look at hledger source, for example. xmonad is good if you want to see something that does lots of IO
14:15:50	<geekosaur>	there are a lot of different coding styles out there, unlike (say) Python there's no One True Way to do things
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14:21:47	<albet70>	I never comprehend that use fixed point to express fibonacci sequence
14:22:45	<dudem>	yushyin: thanks, but the html and the pdf at that repo don't generate for some reason
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14:22:50	<dudem>	but looks promissing
14:23:26	<dudem>	i've had good experience in other languages in learning at basics and then going through the cookbooks
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15:06:37	<Marco>	Hi folks - Newbie here with a question
15:07:17	<geekosaur>	generally you should just ask
15:07:52	<Marco>	I am struggling with translating a recursive function to use foldr.
15:08:04	<Marco>	Here is what I have:
15:08:23	<Marco>	type Assoc k v = [(k, v)]
15:08:40	<Marco>	checkLut :: Eq k => Assoc k v -> Bool
15:08:47	<Marco>	checkLut [] = True
15:08:56	<Marco>	checkLut' (x:xs) = (fst x) `elem` (fst (unzip xs)) && checkLut xs
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15:10:13	<Marco>	checkLut checks if the keys in my lut are unique. As an exercise I want to implement it using foldr. My problem seems to be that with foldr I do not have acces to xs for unzipping anymore...
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15:12:23	<int-e>	right, this isn't a natural use case for foldr.
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15:13:00	<Marco>	Am I correct that it is not possible to implement using fold at all?
15:13:05	<int-e>	You can still make it work if you change the return type to include extra information.
15:13:26	<int-e>	Like (Bool, [k])
15:14:04	<int-e>	So it would look like checkLut xs = fst (foldr ... ... xs)
15:15:08	<Marco>	Let me try :-) I might come back with questions...
15:15:18	<int-e>	The `checkLut'` line (typo) seems to be missing a negation btw.
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15:20:58	<Marco>	Good point
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15:28:45	<Marco>	That's going to be a hard lambda
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15:33:38	<Marco>	How would fst (foldr ... ... xs) return a (Bool, [k]) ?
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15:38:17	<int-e>	Marco: No, the `fst` is there to turn that (Bool,[k]) into just a Bool.
15:38:50	<int-e>	So I kind of did two steps at once there, 1) change the return type, and 2) fix up the funciton so the return type is Bool again.
15:40:15	<Marco>	Ah, I see. So in your last statement "change the return type to (Bool, [k])" you mean the return type for foldr? Sorry, comming from Turing-Land...
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15:41:59	<int-e>	Marco: yes, that's what I meant
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15:49:17	<hasbae>	:k Monad
15:49:18	<lambdabot>	(* -> *) -> Constraint
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15:49:32	<hasbae>	is there a way in ghci to make that show (Type -> Type) -> Constraint
15:49:46	<geekosaur>	not currently, I think there's a bug report for it
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15:52:36	<geekosaur>	mm, I don't see one
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15:54:27	<hasbae>	ok, i thought I remembered seeing some option flag to turn that on
15:55:15	<geekosaur>	hm, actually it looks like it works in 9.2.3
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15:55:46	<geekosaur>	skkukuk «work+410:master@6e0572b» Z$ ghci-9.2.3 -XNoStarIsType
15:55:46	<geekosaur>	GHCi, version 9.2.3: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help
15:55:46	<geekosaur>	ghci> :k Monad
15:55:46	<geekosaur>	Monad :: (Type -> Type) -> Constraint
15:56:13	<geekosaur>	(note that lambdabot is still on 9.0)
15:56:21	<hasbae>	i was using 8.10.7. I'll try upgrading
15:57:10	<hasbae>	with that flag it works on 8.10.7 too
15:57:13	<hasbae>	thanks!
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15:57:54	<geekosaur>	hm, pretty sure we had someone in here around a week ago who claimed it didn't
15:58:20	<hasbae>	works on my machine lol
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15:59:04	<geekosaur>	yeh, works here too
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16:02:07	<geekosaur>	hm
16:02:23	<geekosaur>	@let {-# LANGUAGE NoStarIsType #-}
16:02:25	<lambdabot>	Defined.
16:02:29	<geekosaur>	:k Monad
16:02:30	<lambdabot>	(* -> *) -> Constraint
16:02:46	<geekosaur>	guess lambdabot is "special"
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16:09:46	<fgaz>	is there a way to check if two values refer to the same data? Not ==, I want to know if they point to the same thunk
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16:10:49	<fgaz>	just for debugging purposes, like :print in ghci
16:10:52	<Marco>	int-e: Still struggling... I have '(True, fst (unzip xs)' for the z argument to foldr. But cannot figure out the lambda.
16:11:05	<dolio>	fgaz: Yeah, it's called reallyUnsafePtrEquality#
16:11:29	<Marco>	Sorry, '(True, fst (unzip xs))' missing paren there...
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16:12:39	<int-e>	> map fst [(1,()),(2,())]
16:12:40	<lambdabot>	[1,2]
16:12:52	<fgaz>	dolio: thanks!
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16:15:44	<fgaz>	hmm... what was the extension that allows to use primops?
16:16:05	<int-e>	Marco: Have you considered giving the step function a name? checkLut xs = fst (foldr step ... xs) where step = ...; the advantage of this is that it's slightly less messy and that you can give `step` a type signature, which may help you to think about what it should do
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16:16:21	<dolio>	fgaz: You mean # in the name? MagicHash.
16:16:27	<fgaz>	found it, magichash
16:16:43	<Marco>	int-e: Good tip! I'll try...
16:16:49	<dolio>	fgaz: Note also that that function might not give reliable answers.
16:17:15	<int-e>	Marco: There's also an easier (well, to my mind) value to start from.
16:17:54	<Marco>	Let me now what is in your mind. Might make my mind grow :-)
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16:19:19	<fgaz>	dolio: why is that?
16:20:13	<int-e>	Marco: well, [] is the simplest list value.
16:20:35	<geekosaur>	a GC could conceivably happen in between, in which case the address will change
16:21:00	<geekosaur>	or one or the other might get forced
16:21:12	<geekosaur>	(think threads)
16:21:13	<Marco>	int-e: Yes, that's the base case in my recursive implementation.
16:22:14	<Marco>	int-e: But I can't find out how that would help me using foldr.
16:23:41	<geekosaur>	so there's a low chance of a false negative and a very low chance of a false positive (if a value that is different just happens to move the wrong way). which is why ot's reallyUnsafe
16:23:44	<geekosaur>	*it's
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16:24:51	<int-e>	Marco: Well, you need that `fst (unzip xs)` value, right, but foldr doesn't give that to you directly... but what if you were to compute it on the fly? That is, the second element of the (Bool,[k]) pair will be the whole list of keys...
16:24:55	<fgaz>	geekosaur: gc makes sense, but why would forcing make a difference?
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16:25:18	<geekosaur>	because a thunk at one address is replaced by a value possibly at a different address
16:25:20	<int-e>	Marco: That's what I'd aim for here.
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16:26:20	<geekosaur>	(the pointer is overwritten, the thing pointed to is not usually mutated)
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16:27:02	<Marco>	int-e: That's what I am trying to achive with 'checkLut'' xs = fst (foldr step (True, fst (unzip xs)) xs)'
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16:28:51	<int-e>	Marco: But the second argument of `foldr` corresponds to the base case, when the list is empty.
16:29:08	<int-e>	Marco: so you should have an empty list there then
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16:29:58	<int-e>	And `step` will be responsible for adding elements to the result.
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16:31:15	<Marco>	int-e: So the second argument to foldr would be '(True, [])' then. Sorry for not understanding, torturing my head since hours with this problem.
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16:32:39	<int-e>	That's not unexpected... recursion is hard, and foldr adds a level of abstraction on top of that. It's learnable, of course :)
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16:32:53	<geekosaur>	fgaz, and if it's not clear, this can happen between looking at one pointer and looking at the other, so they may both get updated but it's too late
16:33:03	<geekosaur>	hence my comment about threads
16:33:39	<int-e>	reallyUnsafePtrEquality# does not have false positives.
16:33:48	<int-e>	It's a primop, there's no intervening GC.
16:34:18	<geekosaur>	there was at one point some locking to ensure two threads couldn't contend over a thunk, it was found to slow things down more than just letting both threads do the update since it was pure and therefore both would get the same result
16:34:35	<int-e>	It can do crazy things, in particular it can be true, then false again.
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16:35:56	<int-e>	You can lose sharing later, sure.
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16:38:46	<Marco>	int-e: If I am not totally wrong then type signature for step would be: 'step :: Eq k => Assoc k v -> [(Bool, [k])] -> (Bool, [k])'
16:38:46	<Marco>
16:39:17	<int-e>	Marco: hmm, no.
16:39:17	<fgaz>	geekosaur: i vaguely remember hearing about that slowdown in a lecture
16:39:20	<int-e>	:t foldr
16:39:21	<lambdabot>	Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
16:39:29	<fgaz>	is there a document with all the details?
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16:39:58	<int-e>	Marco: the second argument and the result need to be the same. and the first argument will be a list element (from the Assoc k v type)
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16:40:45	<geekosaur>	fgaz, I imagine it's a Note somewhere in the RTS source
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16:42:09	<int-e>	geekosaur: I guess you have loss of sharing in mind when you speak of a false positive. While my view on reallyUnsafePtrEquality# is as an approximation of equality, so loss of sharing isn't really an issue as long as nobody violates purity. (Which, ironically, is easy to accomplish when reallyUnsafePtrEquality# is being used because that function is impure)
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16:42:43	<geekosaur>	true, because it can observe what shouldn't be observable
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16:58:33	<Marco>	int-e: Got to go for dinner now. Thanks for your generous help! Hope I'll be able to solve my puzzle tomorrow.
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17:33:56	<qrpnxz>	til i can do Constraint n => Constraint m => instead of (Constraint n, Constraint m) =>. That just made my life surprisingly better
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17:35:51	<geekosaur>	not sure I'd want to trust that too far since it's technically a violation
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17:50:52	<qrpnxz>	if they fix this "bug", i will cry
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17:53:35	<qrpnxz>	man, i can't meaningfully understand the billion categories that Pipes exposes. The only that i think i get are the producer and consumer ones, the other seem might be useful to model some kind of server client relation, but hard to reason about.
17:55:32	<geekosaur>	aren't producer and consumer endpoints, and the others various kinds of stream filters or splitters/combiners?
17:55:33	<monochrom>	Personally, and generally and vaguely speaking, I would just want to know producers, transducers, and consumers, and that's it.
17:55:57	<monochrom>	(Corollary: I might just go with the machines package :)
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17:56:28	<qrpnxz>	i'm mostling using the streaming package atm. I can do consumer by choosing the reader monad, it's kind of mind blowing
17:56:54	<monochrom>	Hrm, that's sounds surprising, yeah :)
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17:57:44	<monochrom>	Then again the way "Functor f => (s -> f t) -> (a -> f b)" can become a getter by giving it a Const functor was surprising too :)
17:58:16	<qrpnxz>	heh yes that's neat-o
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17:58:57	<monochrom>	<Layperson> Dear Mathematician, how do you visualize 6 dimensions? <Mathematician> Visualize n dimensions, then let n=6.
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17:59:09	<qrpnxz>	traversals are just 10000 IQ, you can get a zipper from any traversal. mapAccum* gives you the state you'd expect in traditional languages
17:59:10	<tomsmeding>	qrpnxz: that double => trick already doesn't work with pattern synonyms, where double => have a different, specific meaning
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17:59:45	<qrpnxz>	mmm, alright, good to know
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18:00:29	<tomsmeding>	(required constraints (when using in an expression) and provided constraints (resulting from a pattern match on it))
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18:00:51	<qrpnxz>	lol
18:01:04	<qrpnxz>	kind of a syntax smell in patterns, but useful
18:01:15	<tomsmeding>	Provided constraints are basically gadt-like behaviour
18:01:18	<monochrom>	Uhhh that is going to be confusing...
18:01:32	<tomsmeding>	Yeah the pattern synonym type signature syntax is confusing
18:01:49	<monochrom>	In particular everyone has a 50% chance of misremembering that order!
18:02:42	<monochrom>	I have had enough hard time getting through the skulls of my students that x86 uses little endian :)
18:03:03	<mesaoptimizer>	hey, I recall registering on gitlab.haskell.org with my IRC nick as my username to report a failure of GHC on arch linux. I think my application for an account is still stuck in the mod queue
18:03:20	<monochrom>	And to think that 8 days from now I will be teaching TCP sockets so there will be big endian too.
18:03:20	<mesaoptimizer>	(by which I mean I didn't get any notification that an account has been made)
18:04:11	<geekosaur>	mesaoptimizer, try #ghc but I don't know if anyone with mod queue perms is around today
18:04:18	<geekosaur>	(Ben at least is on holiday)
18:04:46	<mesaoptimizer>	thanks and yes, that isn't a big deal, I'm just preparing for later
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18:30:18	<EvanR>	monochrom, you're lucky you're not teaching tcp plus ethernet, so there is endianness and bit order xD
18:35:37	Andrew	is now known as WaxCPU
18:35:45	<koala_man>	I got a "Prelude.foldl1: empty list" with no backtrace and no foldl1 in my code. Eventually found it happened in the fgl dominator algorithm, but I wasn't able to reproduce it via repl when invoking on the exact same graph
18:36:33	<koala_man>	finally figured out I had gotten the internal representation into a bad state by using the graph builder operator (&) on a node that already existed
18:36:51	<koala_man>	"Behaviour is undefined if the specified 'Node' already exists" the docs say, and indeed
18:37:02	<dsal>	Yeah, that's why if you need something like that, you want semigroupoids
18:37:54	<dsal>	"undefined for" && "compiles" isn't a great mix if you can avoid it.
18:39:10	<koala_man>	"runtime that only allows print debugging" && "misrepresenting Show instances" was also not the best combo
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18:39:59	<dsal>	Heh. Yep.
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18:55:17	<qrpnxz>	regarding pipes request response, this SO question helped!: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/59333006/using-request-and-response-in-with-the-pipes-library-for-bidirectional-communica
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19:50:11	<catern>	hi #haskell, is there a standard length + index function on lists which, if the passed index is too large, returns the length of the list? I want this for indexing into lists of lists
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19:53:12	<monochrom>	No.
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19:54:18	<kuribas>	:t \n -> (!!) n . concatMap
19:54:19	<lambdabot>	error:
19:54:19	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘t0 a -> [b]’ with ‘Int’
19:54:20	<lambdabot>	Expected type: (a -> [b]) -> Int
19:54:30	<kuribas>	:t \n -> (!! n) . concatMap
19:54:31	<lambdabot>	error:
19:54:31	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘t0 a -> [b]’ with ‘[c]’
19:54:32	<lambdabot>	Expected type: (a -> [b]) -> [c]
19:55:15	<kuribas>	:t \n -> (!! n) . concat
19:55:16	<lambdabot>	Foldable t => Int -> t [c] -> c
19:55:24	<kuribas>	-- catern?
19:56:11	<kuribas>	> (!! 5) . concat $ [[2, 1, 3], [5, 4, 7]]
19:56:13	<lambdabot>	7
19:57:51	<catern>	yes that works, but I also am just curious about the function I described
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20:52:37	<dsal>	catern: If you need that, you probably need a different data structure.
20:52:40	<[exa]>	catern: one of the reasons is that you shouldn't really index into lists.
20:52:59	<[exa]>	(also, infinite lists)
20:53:52	<[exa]>	what type should it be? returning an Either?
20:54:19	<dsal>	> repeat 1 !! ∞
20:54:21	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:13: error: parse error on input ‘∞’
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21:18:57	<tomsmeding>	> (∞) = (∞) + 1
21:18:59	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘=’
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21:19:58	<monochrom>	yahb2 has a much better chance with that.
21:20:12	<monochrom>	for lambdabot you have to do a "let ... in ..." thing.
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21:20:20	<geekosaur>	or @let
21:20:23	<tomsmeding>	@let (∞) = (∞) + 1
21:20:24	<lambdabot>	Defined.
21:20:34	<tomsmeding>	> repeat 1 !! (∞)
21:20:37	<lambdabot>	*Exception: <<loop>>
21:21:45	<monochrom>	communist everyone looks towards upper-right-corner infinity meme :)
21:22:22	<monochrom>	Wait a second why are they all upper-right not upper-left?!
21:23:23	<darkling>	They're looking to their left...
21:23:38	<monochrom>	Oh I missed that heh
21:23:52	<monochrom>	I guess that's dialectic double-speak for us.
21:23:55	<darkling>	Do pay attention, 007...
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21:48:17	<qrpnxz>	codensity really do wonders for replicateM... 😊
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21:49:21	<monochrom>	Does it save memory?
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21:55:51	<qrpnxz>	yes a lot. In particular, if you want to replicate a Stream action, definitely definitely do (lowerCodensity . replicateM n . lift). Turns a quadratic into linear
21:55:54	<qrpnxz>	monochrom:
21:56:26	<monochrom>	Nice.
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21:56:41	<monochrom>	I need to work out why, when I have time :)
21:57:49	<qrpnxz>	whereas Conduit opted for CPS by default, streaming and pipes didn't. For pipes there are numbers showing it's a trade off. If you CPS some ops are slower, but this stops being quadratic. Because non-cps is easier to reason about and gives better numbers for composition (i think that's what it was) Pipes opted to not do CPS, and instead let the user do codensity when needed. I will link you some
21:57:51	<qrpnxz>	relevant threads one sec
21:58:20	<qrpnxz>	https://github.com/Gabriella439/Haskell-Pipes-Library/issues/100
21:58:45	<qrpnxz>	well, i'll just link that one
21:58:50	<qrpnxz>	monochrom:
21:59:45	<qrpnxz>	i think it has to do with the associativity of the binds
22:01:36	<qrpnxz>	if you don't need the result of the replicate (i.e. you do replicateM_) i think you don't need the codensity it looks like.
22:01:49	<qrpnxz>	which makes sense
22:02:58	<monochrom>	I heard that free monads also have that. The ADT version Free vs the CPS version F
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22:06:51	<qrpnxz>	indeed Stream is a free monad i believe, and Pipes's Proxy is equivalent to Stream with a particular Functor
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23:18:36	<Haskelytic>	when you say some function `f x y = ...` is strict in its first argument, does that mean, for example, that if `x :: [Int]` that `f` would evaluate `x` up to `[_, _, _]` or is it `[1,2,3]` where the list members themselves are fully evaluated?
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23:20:28	<hpc>	(f x = ...) is strict in x iff f bottom = bottom
23:20:54	<hpc>	or in more practical terms, it would mean x is evaluated up to being either bottom, [], or _:_
23:21:58	<hpc>	extending it to (f x y = ...), the things to google are weak head normal form and head normal form
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23:22:14	<hpc>	but in practical terms it means the same thing, just with extra parameters
23:22:19	<Haskelytic>	hpc: thanks!
23:22:31	<Haskelytic>	yeah that extra `y` wasn't relevant lol
23:22:37	<hpc>	heh
23:23:09	<hpc>	you should look those up anyway, it's good vocabulary to know when you encounter other stuff that deals with laziness and evaluation
23:23:11	<Haskelytic>	you could say I was being lazy :)
23:23:31	<hpc>	like if you ever see code using the "rnf" function, that stands for "reduce to normal form"
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