Logs on 2022-08-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:10:11 | <instantaphex> | Is it possible to define a sum type in haskell that is one of exactly 6 numbers? I tried this: type HeadingWeight = 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 but I'm getting a syntax error. How is this done? |
| 01:12:04 | <Axman6> | you can't start a constructor's name with a number |
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| 01:12:20 | <Axman6> | it must either be an upper case letter, or : for infix constructors |
| 01:12:38 | <Axman6> | also you neerd to use data, not tyoe |
| 01:12:38 | <instantaphex> | I used: type HeadingWeight = 1 | 2 ... |
| 01:12:48 | <Axman6> | type* |
| 01:13:09 | <hippoid> | instantaphex: data HeadingWeight = One | Two .. |
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| 01:13:20 | <dsal> | You can make a Num instance, but that won't make you happy. |
| 01:13:21 | <Axman6> | data HeadingWeight = H1 | H2 | H3 | ... |
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| 01:13:39 | <Axman6> | you could also use a newtype and a smart constructor |
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| 01:14:09 | <Axman6> | newtype HeadingWeight = HeadingWeight Int; mkHW :: Int -> Maybe HEadingWeight |
| 01:14:24 | <instantaphex> | Ok so I can only use type to alias existing types? |
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| 01:16:09 | <hpc> | yep |
| 01:16:52 | <hpc> | sometimes i suspect the only reason type aliases exist is so we can type String instead of [Char] |
| 01:18:01 | <instantaphex> | Thanks! What is the term for these symbols that are defined after the equals sign in a data constructor? Is there some term for those? For example Axman6 had given an example with H1 | H2 | H3 etc.. |
| 01:19:18 | <hpc> | data constructors |
| 01:19:33 | <hpc> | and HeadingWeight would be the type constructor |
| 01:19:51 | <dsal> | type aliases are useful for documentation sometimes. |
| 01:20:28 | <hpc> | i like seeing the underlying type |
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| 01:21:56 | <instantaphex> | in the examples above, with "One | Two | Three | Four" and "H1 | H2 | H3 | H4" the language server didn't complain about the fact that I had not defined the symbol "One" or "H1" |
| 01:22:23 | <arahael> | instantaphex: That's because your'e defining it. |
| 01:22:24 | <instantaphex> | So I assume I don't need to define those symbols. Is there a name for those particular user defined symbols? |
| 01:23:15 | <arahael> | instantaphex: `Foo = Bar | Baz` defines a Foo type that can be either Bar or Baz, Bar and Baz are the two constructors you can use to obtain the Foo type. |
| 01:23:27 | <instantaphex> | Yeah, I gathered that I could define whatever I wanted. I was hoping to find a term that I could google. |
| 01:23:48 | <hpc> | @src Bool |
| 01:23:48 | <lambdabot> | data Bool = False | True deriving (Eq, Ord) |
| 01:24:13 | <hpc> | ^ is how i kept it all straight way back when i was learning haskell |
| 01:25:22 | <instantaphex> | I'm coming from TypeScript so I'm used to seeing that syntax with symbols that are already defined. type myType = SomeDefinedSymbol | SomeOtherDefinedSymbol |
| 01:25:48 | <instantaphex> | But it looks like in haskell you can just define them inline and they just start existing from that point on |
| 01:26:07 | <arahael> | instantaphex: You're confusing types with values. |
| 01:26:53 | <arahael> | instantaphex: What type is "SomeDefinedSymbol", in typescript? |
| 01:27:32 | <instantaphex> | It would be some other type that's defined in scope |
| 01:27:42 | <Axman6> | instantaphex: data Foo = Bar | Baz is not saying that Foo is either the values of Bar the values of Baz, it is defining two type constructors which take no arguments called Bar and Baz, and they both have type Foo |
| 01:27:56 | <instantaphex> | type mySumType = string | number | SomeClassIImported |
| 01:28:08 | <Axman6> | that's not what this syntax does |
| 01:28:34 | <Axman6> | look at the _definition_ of Bool: data Bool = False | True |
| 01:28:48 | <Axman6> | this is where True and False fome from in Haskell |
| 01:29:27 | <arahael> | instantaphex: I'm looking up typescript at the moment, and I don't see that syntax anywhere. |
| 01:29:41 | <Axman6> | data IntOrString = AnInt Int | AString String <- this defines two constructors, which both take a single argument, AnInt has type Int -> InrOrString, AString has type String -> IntOrString |
| 01:30:20 | <Axman6> | arahael: IIRC it defines a type as being any of the given types, so it's sort of like sum types without the constructors |
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| 01:31:11 | <arahael> | Axman6: I *do* see it in contexts such as `function f(foo: string | null): string`, but that's a totally different thing. |
| 01:31:30 | <instantaphex> | arahael let me find the docs |
| 01:31:32 | <arahael> | Axman6: As you point out, it suggests that 'foo' can either be a string, or null, in that function's arguments. |
| 01:31:47 | <dsal> | Are you sure that's a totally different thing? |
| 01:31:55 | <dsal> | In any case, it seems confusing. |
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| 01:32:27 | <Axman6> | arahael: it's not a different thing, those are both type definitions, on is inline, one names it |
| 01:33:06 | <instantaphex> | I'm having a hard time finding the official docs for that particular language feature |
| 01:33:07 | <Axman6> | you can write: type optstring = string | null; function f(foo: optstring): string |
| 01:33:09 | <instantaphex> | but it's one I use often |
| 01:34:28 | <dsal> | In haskell, there's less type ambiguity. |
| 01:34:35 | <arahael> | Axman6: It feels different somehow. Like, optstring is more of an alias, I think. |
| 01:34:36 | <Axman6> | string | null is a type, and the type keyword allows you to name that type |
| 01:34:44 | <Axman6> | yes, that's exactly what it is |
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| 01:34:48 | <Axman6> | it is a type alias |
| 01:35:01 | <instantaphex> | Well at any rate, it sounds like in Haskell using this syntax will actually create constructors |
| 01:35:19 | <Axman6> | TypeStript's num types are just ghetto versions of real sum types |
| 01:35:23 | <arahael> | Axman6: Right, but... If I were to have 'type fooString = string | null', and I have a value that conforms to fooString, it would somehow also conform to optstring, because in typescript, it's just an alias saying "The valeu can be either this type, or that type". |
| 01:35:38 | <Axman6> | arahael: yes |
| 01:36:20 | <instantaphex> | TypeScript uses structural typing so if it conforms, it passes |
| 01:36:22 | <Axman6> | just like type String = [Char]; type CharyList = [Char] allows me to use "abc" :: String as a CharyList |
| 01:36:24 | <arahael> | Axman6: In Haskell, by contrast, the value is an optstring, or it's a fooString, the type checking doesn't go "Oh, wait, which constructor did you just happen to use, lets ignore the alias name...", like ,the typescript approach could nearly give you adhoc row typing as well? |
| 01:36:34 | <arahael> | Ah, perhaps structural typing is a better more accurate name there than row typing. |
| 01:36:43 | <dsal> | I've tried to avoid learning much about typescript because everything I've learned so far has been rather disappointing, but how do you tell what type you got when you have an ad hoc sum type? |
| 01:37:05 | <Axman6> | probably something similar to Java's isntanceOf |
| 01:37:14 | <Axman6> | or whatever it's called |
| 01:37:20 | <dsal> | Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. I'm wondering about ergonimics. |
| 01:37:23 | <instantaphex> | Types don't exist at runtime |
| 01:37:30 | <instantaphex> | because it compiles to JavaScript |
| 01:37:31 | <arahael> | dsal: That's why I feel it's a totaly different thing. The type you got when you have an ad-hoc sum type in typescript *is* whatever type you chose to use on the right hand side, and the flow type inferrence thing will try to ensure you cover all possibilities. |
| 01:37:39 | <Axman6> | javascript still has types |
| 01:37:39 | <arahael> | instantaphex: Well, they don't exist at runtime in haskell either, I think. |
| 01:37:51 | <Axman6> | arahael: correct |
| 01:38:08 | <dsal> | Haskell also compiles to javascript |
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| 01:39:31 | <instantaphex> | I haven't tried compiling to JavaScript with Haskell yet. I'm more or less at the phase now of not being able to actually do anything practical in haskell |
| 01:39:48 | <dsal> | It's not a very common use. |
| 01:40:07 | <albet70> | do haskell compile to rust :) |
| 01:40:08 | <dsal> | If I need something to run in a browser, I'll use PureScript or maybe Elm. |
| 01:40:10 | <arahael> | dsal: Does it still require a docker instance with 16 GB of memory on an intel system? |
| 01:40:11 | <instantaphex> | Just tutorialing and feeling stupid |
| 01:40:47 | <arahael> | What's purescript like? I haven't touched it since 5 years ago when I first discovered it - it was nice. |
| 01:40:48 | <dsal> | arahael: No idea. I've never been interested enough to try it. :) |
| 01:40:51 | <arahael> | Heh. |
| 01:41:00 | <Axman6> | compiling Haskell to rust would be very difficult, because basically requitres garbage collection, which doesn't play too nicely with Rust |
| 01:41:01 | <dsal> | PureScript is like haskell without some of the warts. |
| 01:41:39 | <dsal> | instantaphex: feeling stupid is great. When you start feeling smart, that's when the problems arise. |
| 01:41:41 | <arahael> | Axman6: Why would we compile to Rust? I'd suggest instead, to WASM. |
| 01:41:52 | <arahael> | dsal: Word! |
| 01:42:07 | <instantaphex> | dsal: Yeah I've resigned myself to feeling stupid and being ok with it |
| 01:43:29 | <Axman6> | arahael: because albet70 suggested it. WebAssembly is where it's at, I'm pretty excited about seeing that in GHC |
| 01:43:50 | <arahael> | Axman6: I think it's a *fantastic* thing, I'm looking forward to really seeing it happen. |
| 01:44:59 | <Axman6> | it feels to me like WebAssembly could be the JVM done right |
| 01:45:09 | <arahael> | I'm hoping so too. |
| 01:45:11 | <instantaphex> | I'm hoping that the WebAssembly spec gets to the point where it doesn't require JavaScript interop to access platform features |
| 01:45:23 | <Bulby[m]> | are you talking about WASM :nerd: |
| 01:45:25 | <Bulby[m]> | i love wasm |
| 01:45:31 | <Bulby[m]> | i hope it does be like jvm but good |
| 01:45:48 | <instantaphex> | JVM++ |
| 01:45:58 | <arahael> | instantaphex: I hope platform features like that are *always* gated and always provided via interop. |
| 01:46:09 | <Bulby[m]> | and then use graal to run it in jvm |
| 01:46:46 | <arahael> | Bulby[m]: Or just run it without graal? I dont' think wasm inherently requires javascript at all? |
| 01:46:47 | <Axman6> | the JVM is a pretty shitty target for many languages, particularly functional ones |
| 01:46:56 | <instantaphex> | arhael: Why is that? |
| 01:47:17 | <instantaphex> | arahael: ^ |
| 01:47:18 | <Bulby[m]> | i could run it in a runner if there is a java runner |
| 01:47:37 | <Bulby[m]> | iirc there is arunner |
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| 01:48:23 | <arahael> | instantaphex: I'll have to think about how to answer that, because from where I'm sitting, I'm kind of like, why would you want to access platform features directly and why is that a good thing? Other than convenience, I guess. |
| 01:49:24 | <instantaphex> | It would be nice to write a front-end app in whatever language you want (assuming it compiles to wasm) and not have to wrap it all up in a javascript wrapper |
| 01:49:29 | <Axman6> | yeah the WASI approach seems sensible to me, will make porting to other platforms easier and allow us to not be tied to "a computer is something which has a file system" |
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| 01:49:51 | <arahael> | instantaphex: How woudl that work? Note, one reason I'm very interested in wasm is for iOS. |
| 01:50:51 | <instantaphex> | arahael: You can't access the DOM from WASM, you can't access the platform GC (although it's questionable to me if you would actually want a GC that's a one size fits all...) |
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| 01:51:06 | <arahael> | instantaphex: What DOM? |
| 01:51:42 | <instantaphex> | arahael: What's the connection between wasm and iOS? You want to run apps in iOS safari? |
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| 01:51:52 | <arahael> | instantaphex: No, just wasm on it's own, no safari. |
| 01:52:22 | <instantaphex> | arahael: DOM = Document Object Model - the browsers data structure for HTML documents |
| 01:52:37 | <Axman6> | WASM doesn't need a browser involved at all |
| 01:52:45 | <Axman6> | IMO it's far more exciting on the server than the browser |
| 01:52:54 | <arahael> | Axman6: I agree! |
| 01:52:54 | <Axman6> | it has the potential to be a better docker |
| 01:52:56 | <instantaphex> | arahael: I don't think you can execute wasm outside of the browser in iOS. Unless someone ported node or something to iOS |
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| 01:53:05 | <arahael> | instantaphex: You definitely can, and wihtout node too. |
| 01:53:26 | <Axman6> | and the fact is enables much more trivial language interop is fantastic |
| 01:53:30 | <instantaphex> | arahael: Is there an iOS runtime available for it? |
| 01:53:47 | <arahael> | instantaphex: This is one I'll probably investigate once I get around to it: https://github.com/wasm3/wasm3 |
| 01:54:25 | <instantaphex> | arahael: This is awesome. I didn't know it existed |
| 01:54:42 | <arahael> | instantaphex: Pretty sure there are several other implementations also. |
| 01:55:28 | <arahael> | instantaphex: Btw, when I was asking about "What DOM", I was mostly picking at your use of the word "The", as in, "The DOM". |
| 01:55:46 | <arahael> | instantaphex: Like, when someone is sitting on The Chair, you can ask "What chair?". |
| 01:55:53 | <instantaphex> | I had assumed (incorrectly I suppose) that we were talking about WASM in the browser context |
| 01:56:04 | <Axman6> | web stuff is boring |
| 01:56:12 | <arahael> | WASM in the browser is the most boring and pointless implementatino for it. :( |
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| 01:56:18 | <Axman6> | at least front end web stuff |
| 01:56:21 | <arahael> | It's the application elsewhere that makes it so exciting. |
| 01:56:27 | <Axman6> | yep |
| 01:56:52 | <arahael> | WASM means that for the first time, we now have a common virtual machine, of sorts, that isn't javascript. |
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| 01:57:02 | <Axman6> | or java |
| 01:57:16 | arahael | glares at Java. |
| 01:57:36 | <Bulby[m]> | I HATE JAVASCRIPT |
| 01:57:42 | <Bulby[m]> | at least java is compiled 😭 |
| 01:57:48 | <Axman6> | It still makes me laugh that Java was invented as a real-time language for embedded systems |
| 01:58:04 | <instantaphex> | 3 Billion devices... |
| 01:58:05 | <Axman6> | Bulby[m]: Javascript is compiled, but by everyone, every time they load it |
| 01:58:20 | <Bulby[m]> | horrible |
| 01:58:29 | <Axman6> | (WASM is also compiled generally, but it's a much more trivial conversion) |
| 02:01:49 | <arahael> | Axman6: It suddenly strikes me that in theory, you could compile Rust to WASM3, and then use that *directly* in Haskell when compiled to WASM3, as you can nest WASM, iirc. |
| 02:03:03 | <arahael> | Alternatively, compile haskell to wasm3, then you can use that in rust. |
| 02:03:24 | <Bulby[m]> | i thought haskell wasm was busted |
| 02:03:39 | <monochrom> | The world needs compiling C to javascript or wasm >:) |
| 02:04:09 | <instantaphex> | C -> Scratch |
| 02:04:21 | <Bulby[m]> | 😭 |
| 02:04:31 | <arahael> | monochrom: We already have that, it seems: https://emscripten.org/docs/compiling/WebAssembly.html |
| 02:04:55 | <EvanR> | compiling C to anything other than machine code would be great for debuggability |
| 02:05:14 | <monochrom> | nice |
| 02:05:20 | <EvanR> | I guess it could be machine code and debuggable |
| 02:05:44 | <monochrom> | "just use a CPU emulator" |
| 02:06:05 | monochrom | saw a 68000 emulator back then. |
| 02:06:51 | <Bulby[m]> | https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/oc2 "this allows running linux" |
| 02:07:15 | <Bulby[m]> | oh you may want to use adblocker |
| 02:07:24 | <Bulby[m]> | curseforge is known for their ads ☹️ |
| 02:08:31 | <instantaphex> | Is this a redstone RISC-V implementation? |
| 02:08:36 | <monochrom> | No worries, I like some of the ads actually. |
| 02:08:59 | <Bulby[m]> | it's in a mod |
| 02:09:04 | <Bulby[m]> | i just find it funny that a mod emulates linux |
| 02:09:18 | <EvanR> | what is it, a minecraft mod that implements C ? |
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| 02:09:30 | <Bulby[m]> | it can run linux LOL |
| 02:09:41 | <monochrom> | "Can you run Minecraft in it?" :) |
| 02:09:48 | <EvanR> | well I guess "a thing that can run linux" and "implements C" overlap to some extent |
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| 02:11:13 | <instantaphex> | I'm going to see if I can run my gitlab CI/CD pipeline in this mod |
| 02:11:23 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 02:11:33 | <monochrom> | "install ghcup" |
| 02:12:00 | <EvanR> | minecraft C is cool but wake me up |
| 02:12:05 | <EvanR> | when it runs haskell |
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| 04:17:50 | <Clinton[m]> | Is there a typeclass that is like `FromText` for integers? I basically want `fromInteger :: Integer -> Age`, but I don't want `(*) :: Age -> Age -> Age` like I'd get with `Num`. |
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| 04:24:59 | <pavonia> | What is the relation between Text, Integer and Age here? |
| 04:25:33 | <pavonia> | Also, what do you want for (*) instead? |
| 04:26:31 | <Clinton[m]> | pavonia: I don't want `(*)` at all. |
| 04:27:05 | <pavonia> | Don't implement a Num instance then |
| 04:27:39 | <pavonia> | Or let (*) be undefined |
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| 04:45:46 | <[Leary]> | Clinton[m]: If you use RebindableSyntax, integer literals will be desugared with the `fromInteger` in scope. You can make an `IsNumber` class yourself, or find one in an alternative base/prelude. I can't recommend any of them myself. |
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| 12:19:36 | <Profpatsch> | Does anybody know whether there’s a help channel for servant-related questions? |
| 12:20:07 | <lortabac> | there is #servant |
| 12:20:36 | <Profpatsch> | lortabac: doesn’t have a topic though |
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| 13:19:06 | <hippoid> | this type from quickcheck is accessing the system random number generator through QCGen. So how come it doesn't have IO somewhere in the signature? |
| 13:19:08 | <hippoid> | MkGen :: (Test.QuickCheck.Random.QCGen -> Int -> a) -> Gen a |
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| 13:25:06 | <geekosaur> | QCGen is a seed, so it's generating values from a pseudo-random number generator and the caller has to pass in the seed, which means it needs neither IO nor State |
| 13:25:25 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck-2.14.2/src/src/Test/QuickCheck/Random.hs if you want to see the internals |
| 13:26:18 | <geekosaur> | neither Io nor unsafePerformIO anywhere, just passing a seed (QCGen) around |
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| 13:32:17 | <hippoid> | ok, my mistake was thinking QCGen is a random number generator, and not a seed. That makes sense it doesnt need IO if it's just a seed |
| 13:33:57 | <hippoid> | generate :: Gen a -> IO a introduces the IO, but I'm not clear on how IO is introduced here. Is this function accessing the system to get the randomness? |
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| 13:38:34 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 13:38:42 | <geekosaur> | newQCGen is in IO |
| 13:38:48 | <geekosaur> | and is used by generate |
| 13:39:02 | <geekosaur> | but once a QCGen is created IO is no longer needed |
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| 13:43:19 | <hippoid> | I think I see where my misunderstanding was. MkGen has QCGen in its signature, but the QCGen is not actually created until `generate', that's why the IO is in generate |
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| 14:01:09 | <albet70> | where I can find the liftA2 definition for []? |
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| 14:03:26 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.3/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.2.0/src/GHC.Base.html#line-1164 |
| 14:04:06 | <geekosaur> | or: open Control.Applicatove haddock, look for the list of instances under the definition of Applicative, click the "Source" link next to "Applicative []" |
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| 14:15:09 | <albet70> | liftA2 f xs ys = [f x y | x <- xs, y <- ys] |
| 14:15:17 | <albet70> | it's defined with list comprehesion |
| 14:15:27 | <albet70> | I thought with fmap inside fmap |
| 14:16:31 | <geekosaur[m]> | fmap isn't enough to define Applicative |
| 14:17:28 | <geekosaur[m]> | If it were then Applicative would be Functor |
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| 14:20:25 | <dudem> | hi everyone, it's my third time here and I have gotten into the weeds ... |
| 14:21:53 | <dudem> | I import a package, and can work with it, but I would like to know how to generate documentation for it ... the packaged is not on hackage |
| 14:22:31 | <dudem> | I have google for how to get Haddock up and running, but am struggling |
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| 14:23:42 | <sm> | are you using stack or cabal ? |
| 14:24:44 | <dudem> | cabal |
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| 14:35:23 | <geekosaur> | add "documentation: true" to either cabal.project.local or ~/.cabal/config (where you should have "documentation: false" already, commented out because it's the default) |
| 14:36:19 | <geekosaur> | personally I do the latter so documentation is always built. sadly, finding it afterward requires digging around in ~/.cabal/store because cabal doesn't yet keep a global documentation index |
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| 14:36:47 | <geekosaur> | stack is a bit better here, including a handy command to open local documentation for a package in your browser |
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| 14:43:16 | <dudem> | Thanks geekosaur , i'll give it a try |
| 14:43:24 | <sm> | cabal has a `v2-haddock` command: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/cabal-commands.html?highlight=haddock#cabal-v2-haddock |
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| 15:01:48 | <dudem> | sm thnnks! will try that as well |
| 15:02:52 | <geekosaur> | take a look at the options, you will likely want to turn some of them on. "documentation: true" turns on a reasonable set of them |
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| 16:43:44 | <hippoid> | from import Test.QuickCheck.Property, :t MkProperty gives Gen Prop -> Property. What is Prop? I'm not finding it in hoogle, and I don't think it's a typevar because it's capitalized. |
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| 16:54:26 | <geekosaur> | newtype Prop = MkProp{ unProp :: Rose Result } |
| 16:54:45 | <geekosaur> | so, perhaps a rose tree of property results? |
| 16:54:58 | <geekosaur> | won't be in hoogle because it's internal |
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| 16:58:43 | <hippoid> | geekosaur: thanks. i guess i should have checked source |
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| 17:02:29 | <leeks> | What's the status of cross compilation with ghc? I'm trying to target a raspberry pi 3 and haven't been able to find much info on the topic other than some articles explaining a cross compilation setup using nix. I'm on Windows at the moment and would like to compile with a native mingw host if possible. I've been reading some pages on the gitlab wiki and am trying to piece together a stage1 cross compiler but ha |
| 17:03:15 | <geekosaur> | still fairly miserable although there is work on improving it |
| 17:03:24 | <merijn> | leeks: cross compilation from windows? RIP your sanity |
| 17:03:25 | <geekosaur> | you might want to ask in #ghc |
| 17:03:25 | <sm> | yushyin: geekosaur |
| 17:03:32 | <sm> | ack. sorry |
| 17:03:55 | <zere3f> | Hello all,newbie here,How to use the latest list gets updated every time |
| 17:03:56 | <zere3f> | -- For Example |
| 17:03:56 | <zere3f> | addUser :: String -> [String] -> [String] |
| 17:03:57 | <zere3f> | addUser x oldUser = x : oldUser |
| 17:03:57 | <zere3f> | x = addUser xx |
| 17:03:58 | <zere3f> | --Inorder to add new user i have to use "x" |
| 17:03:58 | <zere3f> | y = addUser yy x |
| 17:03:59 | <zere3f> | But how to track the latest updated if i have to create a program that adds users to the list and returns all the users |
| 17:03:59 | <zere3f> | Can someone guide me |
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| 17:10:30 | <Cale> | zere3f: So, in a real world program, you probably have a database somewhere that you're talking to via IO, but let's just stick with an artificial situation... |
| 17:11:05 | <Cale> | The one way in which variables vary in Haskell is when functions are applied to new arguments, their parameters get instantiated with different things. |
| 17:11:44 | <Cale> | So you can make a recursive function where the list of users is an argument, and as users are added (or other bits of state change), it applies itself to a new argument. |
| 17:12:17 | <Cale> | (or a collection of functions that are a perhaps mutually recursive state machine) |
| 17:13:02 | <Cale> | Another thing you can do is create something like an IORef which is a mutable cell that acts much like you'd expect of a mutable variable in an imperative programming language, but it can only be read or written to from IO |
| 17:17:14 | <leeks> | merijn: haha, yeah. Might be time to spin up a vm |
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| 17:17:35 | <zere3f> | Cale Thank you for response,IORef is something i can look into.Can you explain or provide some sources/examples a bit about the 3 point : " a Recursive function that applies itself to a new argument",seems little confusing.. |
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| 17:19:32 | <leeks> | zere3f: Where are the additional users coming from? stdin ? |
| 17:21:51 | <zere3f> | leeks yes,From a function that calls stdin. |
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| 17:23:44 | <Cale> | zere3f: collectUsers :: [String] -> IO [String]; collectUsers users = do putStrLn "Current users:"; mapM putStrLn users; putStrLn "Enter a new user, or blank to finish"; u <- getLine; if null u then return users else collectUsers (u:users) |
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| 17:24:36 | <Cale> | (obviously, you might want to do a better check for validity of input than that, but I'm already pushing the limits of what I can fit into a single IRC message) |
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| 17:26:13 | <zere3f> | Cale Thank You,Understood. |
| 17:28:45 | <Cale> | There's a way to naively translate imperative programs that update mutable variables into functional programs that do no mutation that's sometimes useful to know about |
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| 17:29:19 | <Cale> | You turn each place where the program counter can be in the imperative program into a function |
| 17:29:31 | <Cale> | and you turn all the mutable variables in scope there into function arguments |
| 17:30:07 | <Cale> | and then you have the functions apply each other to arguments according to how the control flow of your imperative program goes, and how the variables are updated |
| 17:30:26 | <Cale> | This will usually result in a bit of a mess, but it is now a mess of *equations* |
| 17:30:58 | <Cale> | and so you can start simplifying it using a highschool-algebra-like approach of substituting equals for equals, and reducing the number of functions you have |
| 17:33:06 | <Cale> | Maybe I can make a short example of that... |
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| 17:34:08 | <zere3f> | Cale Yes please,some example,couldn't able to grasp much |
| 17:34:17 | <leeks> | Cale: I get what you're saying but I'm not sure how the reduction step will work in practice. I'd like to see also. |
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| 18:04:29 | <Cale> | https://dpaste.com/6EXDDVZ52 |
| 18:04:40 | <Cale> | zere3f, leeks: ^^ |
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| 18:05:20 | <Cale> | Kind of a silly example, but should be enough to get the idea anyway |
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| 18:06:01 | <Cale> | Oh, maybe I should have had f1 actually do the initialization, well, whatever :) |
| 18:06:11 | <Cale> | (just looking back on it now) |
| 18:06:46 | <Cale> | Usually I would translate lines in small batches, doing things simultaneously when they don't affect each other |
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| 18:08:56 | <Cale> | If I'm reading an algorithm I'm not super-familiar with given as imperative pseudocode, this is the kind of thing I'm likely to do at first though |
| 18:09:44 | <Cale> | and usually by the end of it, I have a clearer expression of what it's computing |
| 18:10:58 | <Cale> | does that make sense? |
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| 18:21:50 | <[exa]> | Cale: it is lovely. |
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| 18:25:32 | <Cale> | Oh, I also realized that I somehow ended up with a typo in one occurrence of f3 somehow where it was pointed at f4 instead of f2, but I didn't have that error in later copies |
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| 18:26:28 | <Cale> | https://dpaste.com/2HH8JVJ6Z -- fixed |
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| 18:27:31 | <Cale> | This is also a good way of checking that you understand an imperative program, or understanding obfuscated imperative programs |
| 18:28:17 | <Cale> | Once you have a bunch of equations and can reason equationally about what the program does, it usually becomes much easier to make sense of things |
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| 18:30:15 | <Cale> | (especially making all the control flow explicit and then being able to simplify it can help in cases where that's complicated or unclear) |
| 18:33:20 | <hippoid> | Cale: how do you figure out "all the places where the program counter can be"? Is it just all statements? |
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| 18:34:20 | <Cale> | yeah, like, when you imagine an imperative program running, it moves from one statement to the next, I just mean, all of those places where the trace of execution can land |
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| 18:35:37 | <Cale> | Everything gets turned into a function which takes as arguments the state of the machine, and produces the final result of the program |
| 18:36:14 | <Cale> | (and most of them will do that by applying one of the other functions, or a couple, if it's a control flow statement) |
| 18:36:57 | <Cale> | It'll be the function corresponding to where the program goes next |
| 18:38:04 | <hippoid> | Cale: i'm going to try it next time i see some gnarly imperative code |
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| 19:00:54 | <kaol> | Is there a way to do both :r and the previous command to that in one go in ghci? I'm debugging stuff and up enter up up enter starts to get repetitive. |
| 19:03:08 | <[exa]> | you can define new commands in ghci, e.g. :R something that executes something after :R |
| 19:04:29 | <[exa]> | *after reload |
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| 19:05:57 | <[exa]> | o here https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/ghci.html#ghci-cmd-:def |
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| 19:08:41 | <kaol> | Can I also make something that does :r and only if it succeeds runs my command? |
| 19:08:45 | <EvanR> | dang, :R takes less basic keyboard actions than :r |
| 19:09:02 | <EvanR> | ignoring the final releasing of keys xD |
| 19:09:29 | <EvanR> | maybe not nevermind I didn't do the accounting |
| 19:10:12 | <kaol> | Looks like :def only takes a String -> IO String. I can't express :r with that, can I? |
| 19:11:21 | <geekosaur> | doesn't :def produce a string of commands? |
| 19:12:03 | <geekosaur> | see the example for ":make" |
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| 19:13:22 | <geekosaur> | and the readFile one (":.") shows how you can put multiple commands separated by newlines |
| 19:13:42 | <geekosaur> | that said, it looks like you can't do conditional stuff |
| 19:13:52 | <kaol> | Ok, right, I can make : commands with it. But what I'd really like is :r and if it succeeds then do x but I don't think :r can do that. |
| 19:14:00 | <geekosaur> | that is, you can't (as you asked) run commands only if it succeeded |
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| 19:15:12 | <geekosaur> | ghci has no conditionals |
| 19:15:13 | <kaol> | I suppose I use runghc or instead. |
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| 19:16:11 | <geekosaur> | yeh, were I doing that I'd use runghc |
| 19:16:46 | <geekosaur> | actually I did do that, until I trusted the progrsam enough to compile it |
| 19:17:00 | cyphase_eviltwin | is now known as cyphase |
| 19:17:12 | <geekosaur> | but I didn't care much about performance of either one; if it matters to you then runghc is a poor choice |
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| 19:25:31 | <Cale> | You might also like ghcid |
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| 19:48:31 | <sm> | yeah ghcid can do that |
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