Logs on 2022-08-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:33:08 | <johnw> | @pl \(s, f) -> runState s (runReadonly f) |
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| 00:34:56 | <jackdk> | johnw: uncurry ((. runReadonly) . runState) |
| 00:35:08 | <johnw> | yeah, thank you, just finished installing 'pointfree' and got that result |
| 00:35:13 | <johnw> | not an improvement |
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| 00:39:29 | <EvanR> | it's crazy how much better having a point is, usually xD |
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| 00:40:57 | <johnw> | yeah, when you linearize the composition it loses some of the clarifying structure |
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| 00:50:18 | <Axman6> | johnw: I'm sure I've seen edwardk using something recently which was a lens that gave access to the context outside the focus... but it might bave been in rust |
| 00:50:47 | <Axman6> | s/lens/some sort of optic/ |
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| 00:53:27 | <Axman6> | here it is: https://gist.github.com/ekmett/ce5cc1edce154248fac9ea0f2c3ede9b |
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| 01:04:56 | <c_wraith> | I don't think you can generally assume that everything outside a lens is comparable anyway. Like, the "I don't have a value of type `a'" thing is a real issue. |
| 01:06:52 | <c_wraith> | I think you're not really going to do anything better than you get with Contexts |
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| 01:08:06 | <c_wraith> | Maybe add some helpers that let you pass in some default value from a context where they have a chance of knowing what type they need to be |
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| 01:16:30 | <texasmynsted> | I am looking at this -> https://dpaste.com/CQC3SHWGK |
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| 01:17:05 | <Axman6> | I am now also looking at https://dpaste.com/CQC3SHWGK, I give this URL a B, not bad, but not our usualy paste website |
| 01:17:13 | <texasmynsted> | I am trying to test it out but I always seem to get errors with expecting "end of line" |
| 01:17:30 | <texasmynsted> | lol Axman6 |
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| 01:18:13 | <Axman6> | usual* |
| 01:18:23 | <texasmynsted> | If I try to parse 'Total: A\n' for example |
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| 01:19:22 | <texasmynsted> | I think it is looking for Data.Char LineSeparator |
| 01:21:30 | <texasmynsted> | oh, no that is not right |
| 01:22:13 | <Axman6> | I love that we can use OverloadedStrings for parsers |
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| 01:25:37 | <texasmynsted> | I am just not seeing what I am missing |
| 01:25:39 | <c_wraith> | takeUntilEOL really doesn't appear to be doing what it says |
| 01:26:03 | <texasmynsted> | I would think eol on unix would be \n. |
| 01:26:28 | <c_wraith> | it appears to be taking line separators |
| 01:26:39 | <c_wraith> | rather than everything but line separators |
| 01:27:14 | <texasmynsted> | oh |
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| 02:11:50 | <Clinton[m]> | How do I access the `C` typeclass after pattern matching on `Foo` in `f`. I'm sure there's a way to do this I just forgot:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2a02522c435d270db61978a3ec5e208cf1737732) |
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| 02:21:00 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: I see two options: 1. Add a Proxy to your GADT and use ScopedTypeVariables to bring `a` into scope, so that you can use a type application on `silly` |
| 02:21:17 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/D5CfI3xJ/SillyProxy.hs |
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| 02:22:37 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: 2. Add a type variable to `Foo` so that you can bring the `a` into scope without `Proxy` (`Foo` is kinda doing the role of `Proxy` in this version, and kinda works like `Dict` from package `constraints`) |
| 02:23:04 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/f5DVk1QJ/SillyTyVar.hs |
| 02:25:38 | <Clinton[m]> | jackdk: I think I'll need to add a Proxy here, I don't want to change the type of `Foo`. |
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| 02:30:16 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: This also works, by passing a value-level `Dict` from the `constraints` package, which takes the role of both your `C a` constraint and the `Proxy` from my first attempt: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2JZN7jmT/SillyConstaintPackage.hs |
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| 02:34:17 | <Clinton[m]> | @jackdk: Oh that's seems better... I'm a bit confused though as why just `C a => Foo` doesn't work? Doesn't GHC store `C a` as a pointer to the typeclass dictionary anyway, and if so, why can't I access it? Why do I need to do `Dict` shenanigans? |
| 02:34:17 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 02:34:40 | <Clinton[m]> | s/:// |
| 02:37:00 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: the fundamental problem that's blocking me from solving the `Foo :: C a => Foo` version is that I don't know how to capture the `a` type variable when pattern matching, so I can't apply it to the call of `silly`. There could be any number of instances available, but we're trying to pick out the one contained in `Foo`. Type annotations when pattern matching bring any tyvars into scope, hence using Dict as a value-level version of the dict |
| 02:37:07 | <jackdk> | Perhaps someone else here knows how to do it without the helper. |
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| 03:06:02 | <qrpnxz> | is there a way to get hoogle to display all known instances for some type? |
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| 03:21:40 | <johnw> | c_wraith: not in the general case, no, but in my specific case, yes |
| 03:23:01 | <johnw> | Axman6: thanks, that looks very relevant |
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| 03:53:13 | <instantaphex> | Is it more common to use stack over cabal? |
| 03:54:04 | <absentia> | instantaphex: the dev experience for stack is far superior imo |
| 03:54:13 | <absentia> | less time messing with dependencies |
| 03:54:23 | <absentia> | and isolation between projects |
| 03:55:00 | <instantaphex> | absentia: That's what it seems like. Seems more modern. |
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| 03:55:10 | <absentia> | chronologically it is |
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| 04:14:08 | <jackdk> | I see a lot more complaints about stack these days - cabal gets the lion's share of dev attention and has caught up a lot |
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| 04:31:37 | <dragestil> | Does anyone know what could be the problem if: cabal build / cabal run succeeds, but cabal install complains about file not found for $(embedDir "some/dir") |
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| 04:51:02 | <Clinton[m]> | Perhaps this isn't the right abstraction, but I had a function that was:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/cf15892ab8aeea660326ac72ba4e397b23f30bfc) |
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| 04:55:39 | <maerwald[m]> | dragestil: yes, your cabal file is incorrect |
| 04:55:57 | <dragestil> | maerwald[m]: what do you mean |
| 04:56:01 | <maerwald[m]> | cabal install does an sdist and installs from there |
| 04:56:14 | <maerwald[m]> | It doesn't install from current dir |
| 04:56:28 | <maerwald[m]> | So your package would be broken on hackage |
| 04:57:04 | <maerwald[m]> | Your sdist is missing files |
| 04:58:53 | <maerwald[m]> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-package.html?highlight=extra-source-files#pkg-field-extra-source-files |
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| 05:07:19 | <Clinton[m]> | > <@clintonmead:matrix.org> Perhaps this isn't the right abstraction, but I had a function that was:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/1e3dcb81852b03461381e3ef6e7fed58bfa20692) |
| 05:07:21 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘<@’ |
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| 05:28:51 | <jackdk> | @unmtl StateT s (Either e) a |
| 05:28:51 | <lambdabot> | s -> Either e (a, s) |
| 05:29:06 | <jackdk> | @unmtl ExceptT e (State s a) |
| 05:29:06 | <lambdabot> | err: `ExceptT e (s -> (a, s))' is not applied to enough arguments. |
| 05:29:18 | <jackdk> | @unmtl ExceptT e (State s) a |
| 05:29:19 | <lambdabot> | s -> (Either e a, s) |
| 05:30:39 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: ^-- you can change the behaviour you get by exchanging the `StateT s` and `ExceptT e` layers (`Either e` is isomorphic to `ExceptT e Identity`). When you say "except the error case", I take it to mean you want failure to not throw away the new state? |
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| 06:37:31 | <dragestil> | maerwald[m]: ok thanks |
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| 15:04:03 | <texasmynsted> | What is the simplest way to read text from PDF. In hackage I see pdftotext and pdftoolbox. pdftotext looks simple but it was unhappy with my poppler install. |
| 15:06:11 | <sm> | some command line tool not written in haskell I expect |
| 15:07:02 | <geekosaur[m]> | And welcome to hell |
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| 15:10:48 | <Inst> | forgive me father, for I have sinned |
| 15:10:50 | <Inst> | https://newaverageandpragmatic.blogspot.com/2022/08/monad-tutorial.html |
| 15:12:13 | <eviltwin_b> | pdf is a horrible format for anything other than final output. extracting text from it is heuristic at best |
| 15:12:43 | <maerwald> | eviltwin_b: so? It's a common use case |
| 15:13:02 | <eviltwin_b> | how heuristic depends on how much the output driver that generated it treated it as a dumb printer |
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| 15:13:48 | <eviltwin_b> | pdf generators do not care how common a use case it might be. it's horrid and unreliable |
| 15:14:11 | <maerwald> | many platforms have this feature of auto-detecting document contents from PDFs so you don't have to copy paste stuff yourself and you usually don't have the original LaTeX (if there ever was any) |
| 15:14:30 | <maerwald> | no one cares whether it's reliable |
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| 15:15:02 | <eviltwin_b> | I guess that explains that, you think it's all LaTeX. try extracting something useful from word-generated pdf |
| 15:15:46 | <maerwald> | No I don't think that. |
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| 15:16:05 | <texasmynsted> | heh |
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| 15:17:34 | <maerwald> | fuzzy algorithms are everywhere, even in your editor |
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| 15:18:14 | <maerwald> | you don't use them to launch a space rocket, obviously |
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| 15:19:52 | <texasmynsted> | the command line app pdftotext extracts the text and preserves the format, but parsing it is . . . |
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| 15:26:55 | <texasmynsted> | I think I will see if vendors will add a yaml block or something to the end of their invoices. |
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| 15:30:45 | <eviltwin_b> | maybe pdf is the better idea after all :) |
| 15:30:52 | <texasmynsted> | lol |
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| 15:33:38 | <texasmynsted> | or Eno . . . |
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| 15:52:05 | <texasmynsted> | :-) config-value looks interesting |
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| 17:48:05 | <Inst> | the easiest way to explain monads, for me right now, is a type you can fmap, pure, and bind on |
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| 17:48:35 | <monochrom> | :( new ghcup drops TMPDIR :( |
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| 17:49:07 | <Rembane> | Inst: And also <*> on! :D |
| 17:49:11 | <monochrom> | Although to be fair ~/.ghcup/tmp is much more guaranteed to have space. |
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| 17:52:48 | <monochrom> | But more meta-ly there is a pessimistic cynical principle similar to Peter's Principle and Dilbert's Principle. |
| 17:53:13 | <monochrom> | Every tool tends to evolve towards being optimized for newbies. |
| 17:53:38 | Rembane | shows counter-exhibit A: Vim |
| 17:54:29 | <monochrom> | Um I thought Vim was the result of evolving Vi towards newbies. |
| 17:54:59 | <Rembane> | Okay, fair enough, but as long as you don't change the programs it's cool. |
| 17:55:25 | <monochrom> | Right? It actually has a windowing system! It actually has a "help" command! It comes close to having a menu system! |
| 17:56:31 | <Rembane> | I wonder if there's a counter-program to Vim that takes vi and makes it harder. |
| 17:58:19 | <Inst> | Rembane: a general monad has to be a monoid in the category of endofunctors |
| 17:58:22 | <monochrom> | For that, you need to switch your mind to a mode that thinks like https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/thermodynamics-2 , and then you will see that vi evolves to ed for that. :) |
| 17:58:23 | <Inst> | consequently it needs fmap |
| 17:58:30 | <Inst> | the monoid only means that it has join and unit |
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| 18:01:00 | <monochrom> | Clearly, a monad must also be a lax monoidal functor. |
| 18:01:05 | <dolio> | I don't see how any of those things are "for newbies." |
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| 18:03:00 | <monochrom> | OK, hardcoding the path ~/.ghcup/tmp and not bothering with "customizable with TMPDIR" is because a lot of beginners are on platforms with insufficient space at /tmp and telling them about TMPDIR is too much tech support time. |
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| 18:03:49 | <Rembane> | Inst: Indeed. |
| 18:03:59 | <Inst> | oh goddamnit, i forgot the monad laws expressed in join |
| 18:04:42 | <Inst> | join . unit = id = unit . join for a monad (monad anytype) |
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| 18:05:23 | <Rembane> | monochrom: But ed isn't vi. It's something else. I'm not very good at expressing this right now. So if I start talking about editor in a couple of weeks you'll know why. This is relevant though: https://xkcd.com/378/ |
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| 18:07:53 | <Inst> | join . fmap join $ (value :: (monad (monad ( monad type))) === join . join $ (value :: (monad (monad (monad type))) |
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| 18:09:26 | <Inst> | join . fmap pure === id === join . pure for (value :: monad type) |
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| 18:09:55 | <Inst> | the reason I'm omitting <*> is that we have monads in other languages and they don't necessarily implement applicatives |
| 18:10:04 | <Inst> | ap is best understood in terms of bind, anyways, even though you can ap without bind |
| 18:10:14 | <Inst> | (if you ignore that ap is a method of monad, not applicative) |
| 18:11:17 | <Inst> | monads strictly = pure, fmap, and join |
| 18:11:20 | <merijn> | Rembane: ed :D |
| 18:11:24 | <Inst> | bind and ap can be derived from it |
| 18:11:40 | <Inst> | speaking of ed, Rembane |
| 18:11:42 | <Inst> | wanna adopt this? |
| 18:12:08 | <Inst> | https://github.com/liamzee/edMonad |
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| 18:12:49 | <monochrom> | I wouldn't say "strictly", but I can understand "minimally". |
| 18:13:39 | <Rembane> | Inst: No thank you, but thanks anyway. :) |
| 18:14:02 | <Inst> | i want to do a wordpress clone called joinable, built around the concept of collaborative and collaboratively monetizable blogging |
| 18:14:08 | <Rembane> | merijn: Yeah, but that isn't an interactive editor. Is interactive editor a too high bar in this case? |
| 18:14:27 | <Inst> | monochrom: what's the difference between minimally and strictly in this case? |
| 18:14:55 | <Inst> | and of course, join is bugged out, apparently it broke stuff in GHC when they tried to make join an alternative to bind in Haskell |
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| 18:15:23 | <merijn> | Rembane: ed is interactive |
| 18:15:34 | <merijn> | Rembane: Unless you have some very weird definition of interactive |
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| 18:17:03 | <Inst> | ed isn't vi |
| 18:17:07 | <Rembane> | merijn: Oh, then I'm mixing up the editors. I might be thinking of ex or perhaps sed. |
| 18:17:11 | <Inst> | ed predated vi, regarding rembane and monochrom |
| 18:17:20 | <Inst> | ed is a different development line, a basic line editor in unix |
| 18:17:32 | <Inst> | also, stuff like opera |
| 18:17:40 | <Inst> | and vivaldi, were browsers designed for powerusers explicitly |
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| 18:20:11 | <Rembane> | Inst: Yeah, I thought vi was built on ed. |
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| 19:52:30 | <texasmynsted> | The 3270 xedit editor was nice |
| 19:54:24 | <geekosaur[m]> | vteco! |
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| 20:11:08 | <Milan> | Hi ,would you please give a practical example of cons: usage ? |
| 20:11:39 | <Milan> | please a simple one |
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| 20:13:49 | <monochrom> | Rembane: Precisely because ed predates vi in our universe, you need that smbc comic to switch direction for "evolve vi into ed" :) |
| 20:14:50 | <Rembane> | monochrom: Got it! :D |
| 20:16:03 | <dsal> | Milan: cons? |
| 20:17:01 | <Milan> | : |
| 20:17:11 | <Milan> | this simple |
| 20:17:44 | <Milan> | i saw something like 1:(2:(3: |
| 20:18:04 | <Milan> | **symbol |
| 20:19:51 | <merijn> | Milan: [1,2,3] and 1:(2:(3:[])) are identical |
| 20:20:43 | <Milan> | whats the idea behind those : |
| 20:21:44 | <Milan> | do they denote something special? |
| 20:21:49 | <merijn> | :t (:) |
| 20:21:50 | <lambdabot> | a -> [a] -> [a] |
| 20:21:59 | <darkling> | The left-hand operand of the cons operator (the ":") is a thing. The right hand operand of the cons operator is a list of things. The result of the expression is a list where the head is the left, and the rest of the list of the right. |
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| 20:22:36 | <darkling> | So [1, 2, 3] is just a syntactic sugar for the actual data structure, which is 1:(2:(3:[])) |
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| 20:23:50 | <Milan> | would u please explain a bit more |
| 20:23:58 | <Milan> | if possible for u? |
| 20:24:23 | <darkling> | What are you having trouble with? |
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| 20:25:13 | <Milan> | i cant understand the idea behind these ,does it say data is added one by one in a list? |
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| 20:26:00 | <darkling> | Yes, that's how you build a list. |
| 20:26:39 | <Milan> | does : symbol want to remind ?or it is something else? |
| 20:26:53 | <darkling> | The idea is that a list in its lowest form is a linked list. Each individual cons expression is an item in that list. |
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| 20:28:12 | <darkling> | The expression "x:xs" is one item in the list: it's a value and (in the linked list interpretation) the pointer to the rest of the list, which is a list in its own right. |
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| 20:29:26 | <Milan> | why understanding this idea is important |
| 20:29:57 | <Milan> | is it related to lambda idea? |
| 20:30:12 | <darkling> | Nothing to do with that. |
| 20:30:48 | <Milan> | thank you very much , |
| 20:31:22 | <geekosaur> | once you have constructed a value, it's nice to be able to deconstruct it to get values out of it |
| 20:31:39 | <geekosaur> | (x:xs) is a pattern that deconstructs a list into an item and the rest of a list |
| 20:32:17 | <geekosaur> | the pattern (Just x) deconstructs a Maybe and retrieves the value within it, provided it was Just (you will want another pattern match for the Nothing case) |
| 20:32:32 | <texasmynsted> | can't find it but I seem to recall John Hughes had an outstanding explanation for lists and their composition. |
| 20:32:53 | <darkling> | Yeah, the important part of this is that it allows you to understand why you can only get the first item in a list (plus the remainder of the list) -- which is what the x:xs pattern syntax does for you. |
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| 20:35:42 | <Milan> | does repetition of this x:xs pattern is the real thing we do for deconstructing a big list to get a certain item? |
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| 20:36:19 | <Rembane> | Milan: Yes, this is why it takes so long time to find a certain item in a list. :) |
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| 20:38:03 | <Milan> | oh thank you ,i understood why this idea is important that they have assigned a sign for it !!! |
| 20:39:55 | <texasmynsted> | The best way to understand is to try using them. Build some lists. Try to reverse, join them, etc. |
| 20:40:49 | <Rembane> | \o/ Do all the recursions! \o/ |
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| 20:47:25 | <dsal> | You can also build the type yourself. It's not *super* special. |
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| 20:48:19 | <dsal> | I'd never tried to get a ghci working without the built-in list stuff. Is that even possible? |
| 20:48:48 | <texasmynsted> | Not haskell but this book might be helpful https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf |
| 20:49:22 | <texasmynsted> | Chapter 2 in particular |
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| 22:01:17 | <bcmiller_> | :t (->) |
| 22:01:18 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘->’ |
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| 22:05:08 | <ski> | @kind (->) |
| 22:05:10 | <lambdabot> | * -> * -> * |
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| 23:14:21 | <texasmynsted> | if you were going to _quickly_ build a UI for something what would you use? (personal project) |
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| 23:20:51 | <EvanR> | probably a canned browser solution |
| 23:21:00 | <EvanR> | electron or something |
| 23:21:10 | <EvanR> | assuming being literally based on the web was not an option |
| 23:22:27 | <texasmynsted> | web is fine |
| 23:22:45 | <texasmynsted> | I just am not sure how much time I want to devote to this. |
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| 23:23:32 | <texasmynsted> | I thought about brick, and also making something in yasod, or reasonml |
| 23:23:59 | <EvanR> | desktop toolkits give better experiences but only work on 1 platform at a time, or subvert their better experience in the process of attempting cross platformness |
| 23:24:30 | <texasmynsted> | right |
| 23:24:31 | <EvanR> | and in any case probably aren't "quick", in haskell |
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| 23:25:11 | <texasmynsted> | Looking for quick so, or "best return on time invested". |
| 23:26:37 | <texasmynsted> | The _user_ is likely only going to be me |
| 23:26:56 | <EvanR> | oh, if it can be textbased that's likely opens up a lot |
| 23:27:10 | <texasmynsted> | sure text based is fine. |
| 23:27:39 | <texasmynsted> | There was some unix Tui tool that I can't recall the name of |
| 23:28:58 | <texasmynsted> | I will likely need to learn something new, but that is fine if the result of automating is a net gain. |
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| 23:30:46 | <texasmynsted> | Haskell might not have the quickest solution, but I would feel better about devoting time to a haskell solution. |
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| 23:33:37 | <EvanR> | there's brick, vty, ansi-terminal-game, ... |
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| 23:43:51 | <hippoid> | |
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| 23:45:00 | <texasmynsted> | okay |
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All times are in UTC on 2022-08-05.